Transcription
[Music] Good morning everybody and welcome to a very special episode of 30 Minutes to President's Club. I'm your host, Nick Seeli, joined with my co-host, Armand Faro. Armand, we've got Chris Voss on the show, author of *Never Split the Difference*, CEO of The Black Swan Group. Why should people listen? Sounds like you thought this was a great episode, Nick.
Yes, folks, if you didn't know, that's what's called a label. A label is one of the techniques that Chris Voss breaks down in *Never Split the Difference*, where you label the emotion that allows you to get the other person talking and explain where they're coming from in a negotiation, as opposed to being defensive or interrogating them. And so, if you want to learn how to run a negotiation from the moment someone balks at price all the way to the finish line, and do that without causing any confrontations, we have a two-part special for you today. Part number one is going to cover all of the ways that you can get them talking, using things like labels early in a negotiation. It's the beginning of the negotiation where they're balking at price, and you need to unpack where they're coming from. And then part number two will cover the solutioning and the tone you should use in a negotiation. Once you understand what type of negotiator they are, what their interests are, now you can start to use those labels and other techniques to drive to a conclusion. And it's key that you nail the tone here. So, there is a master class on how to nail the tone at the end. Three, two, one, let's ride.
All right, Chris, welcome to the show. We start every single episode with your top three actionable takeaways. So let's get your three.
All right, the first actionable takeaway: switch from trying to get a "yes" to getting a "no." You can reformat your questions where you're driving for "yes" and simply shift them to where the same answer is a "no." Example is, instead of saying, "Do you agree?" say, "Do you disagree?" Beautiful. What's number two?
Getting a "yes" or "no" is to trigger a decision. Triggering a decision is not the same thing as being listened to. Doesn't matter if you're right. If you don't actually listen to people and show them that you've listened to them, they're going to get tired of talking with you because nobody likes to talk to somebody who's not listening. Reminds me of conversations with Armand. Round us out. What's number three?
Number three is, don't make people wonder when a call is going to be over. Let them know ahead of time how long you need. Ask for three to four minutes more than you need. Quit ahead of schedule, and you're always giving people back time. And that day, you'll be the only person in the world that does it.
I'm in a bit of a sticky negotiation that I'm wondering if you could help me out with. About seven months ago, I met with the CEO of this organization, and at the time, we were doing short-term contracts. We would let people sign a three-month engagement, and we don't do that anymore. And last week, this VP of marketing had called me and said, "Hey, we're ready to move forward, but we only want to do a short-term engagement. We want to do a trial before doing something longer." And that's not something I can do anymore. And I told him that, and I know he went back to the CEO, and they had a conversation. And I got a text from this VP earlier today saying, "Hey, can you talk later?" That's all the context I have. And so after this interview, I'm literally going to call this person. I'll use what you said about, like, "Hey, you know, uh, setting aside the right amount of time. Is this a bad time to talk?" What do you recommend I do in running that conversation? How should I think about managing that interaction?
If they don't like it, and you know, they don't, that's why they're pushing back. Right? What it really is an issue of is value. You know, the, the magic vague word that comes up over and over. I'm starting out with a label, and I'm going to say, "Seems like the value is just not there for you to do long-term." Labels hit the brain differently than questions do. First of all, I don't know why. I just know they do. I don't know how gravity works. I just know that if I step off the top of a building, I'm hitting the pavement. I don't got to understand a mechanism. I'm here to tell you, labels hit the brain differently. It doesn't cause them to stop and think. Now, what question causes people to stop and think? Stopping and thinking is a good idea when somebody has enough mental gas in the tank. Typically, after 11 o'clock in the morning, you're starting to tap out the mental gas tank. And I need you to give me an answer. Like, at 5:00 in the afternoon, I'm not going to ask you, "You know, what's the biggest challenge you face?" Because you don't have the energy to answer that. At 5:00 in the afternoon, I'm probably going to say, "It seems like you've got some pretty big challenges in front of you." What question has its own usage? I'm using a "what" question to shift your brain into a specific type of thinking. So that's why you need to say, "Seems like the value is not there for a long-term deal." You got to find out what's going on with the other side.
Well, what happens, Chris, is when you said, "Seems like you've got a good reason for that," the way that I felt when I heard that was, this person understands where they're coming from. It's already halfway there in the direction that I want it to go in. But when you asked, "What's the reason for that?" I felt like I had to justify the decision that I already wanted to make. I felt like I was being questioned as opposed to being understood.
Let's simplify it. Let's say someone comes in, you give them a price, and they ask for a 50% discount, which is bonkers. You say, "Seems like the value might not be there for you," or something akin to that. What are the different directions that that call can go from there?
Well, I'm going to back up to something you said a moment ago that may seem subtle but is critically important. You felt understood based on a label. You said, "It seems like," I use a label, "It seems like," and it made you feel like you understood. That's a critical component that I was talking about earlier, the more people feel listened to. Here's what happens when you feel understood, not when you are understood by the other side, but when the other side has made you feel understood. You start to get a dose of your own neurochemicals of oxytocin and serotonin. Oxytocin causes you to tend to bond with me. It also causes you to be more honest. Serotonin is a drug, a drug neurochemical of satisfaction. Which more satisfied you are, the less you want. So you bond with me, you're more honest with me, and you're less demanding. That's why making people feel understood is, you know, I know Andrew Huberman hates the term "hack," but it's a hacking mechanism to accelerate the process for us to get to a deal. And so if I say in return, "Well, well, Chris, it's, it's not that I don't see any value in what you do, but what you're offering seems a little bit expensive." Where do you go from there?
Well, if it's expensive, again, it's a value issue. Are you simply bargaining with me because you feel like you have to, or is it really an issue of fit? Now, I got to know which one of those two it is. Uh, in hostage negotiation, I get asked by commanders on a kidnapping, "When is this going to be over?" My answer is, "When the bad guys feel like they've got everything they want." Which means they feel they need, they have to bargain, they have to work for it. If that's the mindset, cool. Now I understand. I'm talking about how somebody from Al-Qaeda feels. Talking about the feelings of a guy from Al-Qaeda being a critical issue to the conclusion of the negotiation. The sooner I make you feel that you got everything you could, the sooner the deal happens. It's completely divorced from the actual time. I just got to accelerate your feelings of hard work. So if you're bargaining with me just because you feel like you have to, and if you're, if you're buying, that's entirely possible that it's related to what day of the week it is, what day of the month it is, what day of the quarter is. Like, you don't feel good unless you put up a fight till Thursday or Friday, or you know, what's your compensation based on? You got to put up a fight till the end of the month or whenever your commissions are calculated quarterly. So I'm like, you know, these are the factors that make you feel like you've bargained. Okay, cool. I need to know that that's you feeling like you got to bargain. You got to feel like you got a good deal. Conversely, if the fit's not there, I got to know what that is. If the fit's not there, no matter what you pay me, you're not repeating. You know, is, is a suit that doesn't fit a better suit because you paid less for it? It still looks lousy on you. You still aren't wearing that anywhere because you look stupid and it doesn't work for you. It doesn't matter that you got it for a dollar. So if it's a fit issue, let's figure out the tailoring. Let's not rule out the possibility that the tailoring is going to make it even more profitable for me and more beneficial for you. So I need to know which one of those two it is when you push back on me. And you're going to answer, you're, you're going to tell me by the your words and the way you say your words. I got to listen to my gut, follow my gut, not my amygdala. And whichever one of those two paths it is, I'm going to pursue it.
How would you figure out, or what would you say to determine if it was a bargaining issue or a fit issue?
Well, I'm, I'm going to go back to this value. Like, if it's just too expensive, if you're hammering me on price, you're just bargaining. You're not really thinking about fit. And I, I actually am going to work on you to get you to think about fit. Because, again, if it doesn't fit you, it could, you know, it could be an Armani suit. It could be the best suit possible. You know, to continue with that analogy, the most expensive, the best looking, it matches all your colors, you know, it, it, it makes the color of your hair, color of your eyes pop. And one sleeve is the wrong length, or the pants are too long, or the waist is too big. You're still not wearing that. Or if you are going to a party, you're sitting down in a chair, you're pulling everything so it looks good, and you're not getting up because you're going to look stupid as soon as you move around. And I need you to feel like I'm looking out for you. And you might not be looking out for fit, but I've got to. Because if I don't, you're not going to repeat.
Chris, the suit that you just described sounds exactly like what I wore to my junior prom, so I'm cringing a little bit right now. One thing that I think a more junior seller might do when they first learn about labeling in a situation like this, where they feel like the other side is just, they're just bargaining, they're just trying to get a better deal, is they might label what they think is going on. Like, "Armand, it seems like you're just trying to get a better deal." And I feel like if I said that, and I said it the way that I did right there, the other person might react negatively. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about, like, what are some common mistakes that amateurs make with labeling that a more nuanced, sophisticated negotiator knows to not do?
It's delivery. It's tone. You know, get your words to land. Like, if I say, "Armand, seems like you're just trying to get a better deal," you know, that's a little accusatory. If I'm going to say the same thing with a different tone, I might say, "Armand, seems like this trying to get a better deal." Now, the key to that really, you know, was slower, a little bit of downward inflection, but the last word, upward inflection. And I'm more than happy to give attribution of awareness of this. You know, I, I read everybody's book. *The Way of the Wolf*, Jordan Belfort, chapter seven's about tone. Alan, he makes a distinction between declarative and inquisitive. And when I read that, I thought, "That's superpower." If you can go inquisitive, you can get some stuff to land that you might not be able to otherwise. And on that label that I use just now, "seems like you just try to get a better deal," you know, that's genuine difference, genuine curiosity. It's not threatening. You know, D. G. On my team talks about removing yourself as a threat constantly. Because if I remove myself as a threat, then you're more likely to work with me collaboratively. You're more likely to allow the trust to build. You're not going to do those things as long as I'm a threat. So my job is to remove myself as a threat as much as possible. Now, the bamboozlers do this. You know, use your powers for good and not evil. My intent is for long-term collaborative relationships that we both prosper.
Chris, I'm the type of negotiator when I'm buying something that I always need my piece. I always need my 20% off. And even if the suit fits perfectly everywhere I put it on, I look like a million bucks, I don't show a single smile on my face. I sort of smug look in the mirror, I'm like, "That doesn't look that good." And I come in and I get my 20% and I get my deal. But there are often times deals, if I was a suit salesman, where I see the suit fit and I know it looks good and I know, you know, it looks good. But if I just call the person out on, "Seems like you might just want to get a good deal," they're not going to just buy on the spot because they don't want to look like they have mud on their face, right? Like they were getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar asking for a discount. So from there, there's naturally some back and forth after that. How do you bring this to a resolution with someone who's just trying to get a deal for the sake of getting a deal, when you're thinking about the good deal in a moment is short-term versus long-term? And I, I got to tell you something, I pay full price. I don't bargain full price with anybody. I want over-delivery. I want somebody that I can rely on, who's always going to be there for me. I don't want to put my suppliers out of business. And I also don't pay the annoyance tax that everybody else pays. So if I got a long-term relationship with you, and you were delighted when I walked in your door, next time you raise prices, you're probably not raising prices on me. You're letting the other people pay the annoyance tax because I'm, I'm genuinely grateful for great service. I'm easy to deal with. I don't pay the annoyance tax that everybody else pays because I get a long-term view.
I love this concept of the annoyance tax. And if I'm in the shoes of a seller, what I need to make clear to my prospect is that if they cut the price by 50%, that 50% comes back to them in forms of the annoyance tax. It might be in fewer products they get. It might be in worse service. It might be in a B or C. But they're not going to get the exact same thing for half the price. How do I explain that or articulate that to a prospect?
Well, if you're explaining, you're a loser. And you want to get that idea in their head. And this is what, what the "how" and "what" questions are really designed to do: plant an idea in somebody's head, Inception, if you will. So my first question is going to be, "How am I going to remain a long-term supplier to you and over-deliver from every time if I'm taking a 50% cut?" Now, the "how" question is differential. I'm not cornering you with that question. What I'm doing is getting you to think in a bigger picture with the "how" question. Like, you decide to take a pass on that. All right, so that tells me a lot about you. Do I want you as a customer? Like, you could say, "You know, I don't care about any of that stuff. I don't care about long-term service. I don't care what happens." My thought is like, "All right, you're one of two people. You're them. Really a jerk. And every dollar I get from you is blood money, and I don't have time for people who are sucking the life out." So my response might be, "Look, man, I'm sorry. I just can't do it for you. And I don't like dealing with people who suck the life out of me. It's not worth it. It doesn't matter how much you pay if my life is miserable as a result." So I'm, I'm going to find out if that, if that's you. Now, the flip side, you could react like that because you're under tremendous amount of pressure. And I'm going to get that gauged much more in the way you respond. The more genuine anger I hear in you, uh, frustration, insecurity, concern about your own position, you're under pressure. So my, I got a different response for that. I'm going to say, "If my guessing they're under pressure, I'm going to say, 'It seems like you're under pressure.'" I'm going to want to get you talking about that because potentially, if I can help rescue you from that pressure, if I can save, if I can even recognize I'm in a different category than people don't care about you at all. This feeling of being understood, you mentioned earlier, and the neurochemicals ain't true with as a result. So I need to find out which one of those two you are. You're going to guide me. I'm going to gather data with my eyes and my ears, and I'm going to listen to my gut, and I'm going to see what's going to take to work things out, and also decide whether or not I want to continue to do business with you because I don't believe in blood money.
Chris, you just talked about a couple different ways that we might say no without actually saying no, or surprising or scaring them, almost making them feel like you're a threat or aggressive. You talked about the concept of asking, like, "Well, how am I supposed to do that?" Which I think is supposed to get them out of the emotional state of trying to grind you down and into actually trying to explain the logistical details of how you and your business is going to deliver on this thing, which when they realize, "Wait, that's like," puts them in a different space. So that's one way you say no. And then there's one other that I've heard from you where you basically say something to the effect of, "Your offer is generous. I'm sorry, that doesn't work." And I've always wondered about the piece, the word "generous." What is the rationale for telling someone that their offer is generous and then batting it down? It seems like those two things conflict. And so I'm wondering if you can explain.
First of all, they think it is. We might not think it is, but in point of fact, what typically happens in negotiations, they compromise before they come to the table. Like all non-Black Swan trained people do that. It's non-sense of a "yesable" proposition, which is completely different than "yes momentum." And, you know, let me construct a proposition that's easy for you to say yes to. This is literal the Harvard definition, so that no further negotiation is needed, and we can just get on with things. But that's such nonsense. Like, first of all, you need to feel like you're involved in a process, so you're not going to have any ownership, you're not going to be invested in it at all. Secondly, is me assuming that I'm way smarter than you are and I know everything. For me to construct a proposition that requires no further negotiation requires me to have perfect information, which is an impossibility. And even if I did, you wouldn't have allowed you to participate in the process, and so you're going to be diminished by that. You know, there's two issues where people give us advice. One of them is we're talking down to them. We're treating them like they're not as smart as we are, whether we mean to or not. That's the message that's being received by the other side. So, uh, you know, I've got to engage you in a process that will collaborate. This happens a lot in the negotiations that I've done when I sold software, where a buyer will come to me with three or four different asks. They want us to change our service level agreement, they want a special customer success person who's more senior, they want to change on the license price. They have a couple different demands that they come to with. Come to me with. And what will happen sometimes is I will come back, or a salesperson will come back, with a response to each of their points. "Hey, we can't do this, but we can get to here." All right, we've, we've given on this piece. You're going to have this person, and we'll come with a response to all their demands. And it sounds like what you're saying, the problem with that is, is one, I'm crafting that response with imperfect information, but two, I'm crafting a response solely on my own. And even if I do have perfect information and I do have a perfect response, the other person feels painted into a corner because they didn't get to collaborate with me whatsoever. And so even if I can give everything somebody asks for, or even if I feel like I can handle the response to their asks on my own, it is in my best interest to collaborate live with the other party so that they feel a sense of ownership in creating that solution, which might mean I actually get a better deal than the original response I was going to give them.
The question I had asked was, why are you calling their offer generous? And you started to answer and say, "Well, to them, it is generous." But I feel like I might be giving away leverage. I'm almost showing my hand, even though I don't think it is generous in a way. And you were explaining why it's in my best interest to call it generous.
Labeling. You're labeling a positive. Labeling positives increases the feelings of wanting to be more positive. So if I say, "And I appreciate the thought was generous," you're going to want to be more generous. It's going to encourage it. That's the thing that actually really blows people's minds. Difference between labeling negatives and labeling positives. Labeling positives increases them. Labeling negatives decreases them. They're like different ends of a magnet. And most people, what, well, if labeling a positive must increase it, labeling a negative must increase it as well. And that's one of the differences. You're labeling a positive, you're encouraging generosity on the other side. Which you're almost doing is you are giving them positive affirmation for the behavior that you want more of. And I'm thinking about, like, one other way I might do this in a sales cycle is in a more complex sales cycle. A lot of times there's a lot of work for the other party, where they've got to go communicate information with a bunch of stakeholders and get me documents and data. And I might tell them, like, "I appreciate how hard you've been working on this. I know this has been a lot of time that you've invested in it. And like, I really appreciate it. You've worked really hard on this collaboration." And saying something like that should then make them want to continue to work hard in evaluating my product, service, whatever, because I gave them a plus one. I made them feel good about the work that they put in. They're definitely going to want that appreciation. I mean, they're going to relax and giving it to him more than once. And, and I became acutely aware of this in a negotiation we were involved with recently. In the middle of the negotiation, I said, "Look, I know you guys have been working really hard on this. I know you guys have been thinking about this a lot. And you could have asked for much more. You could have grabbed for much more, and you didn't. And I appreciate how much effort you would get." My team noticed, picked up on a look of appreciation and relief across the border on the other side. We get done afterwards. I followed up with the person on my team and I say, "Send a follow-up email expressing the appreciation for how hard they're working and their generosity." The response was, "Thank you for your counting love." Now, that's going to pay dividends in the relationship and the profitability of the deal and the implementation. And I want those.
How can people follow up with you?
Yeah, the best way is to subscribe to our newsletter. It's complimentary. Uh, that's not why it's valuable. It's valuable because it's actionable and concise. I got to tell you something, I value concise, actionable stuff. The website is blackswanltd.com. B L C K S W A N L T D dot com. Soon as you go there, you're going to get the opportunity to sign up for the newsletter. We've actually got a whole library of previous articles. Give us your email, you get the newsletter Tuesday morning. You're going to find out about different ways to learn from us. Us. It's really the gateway to the gold mine. So subscribing to our newsletter, The Edge, it's the best way to follow up with us.
Chris, thank you for joining us. Everybody, stick around for a 60-second recap coming up soon.
Well, folks, I would love to ask Chris another question right now, but part two of this interview begins right here next week. We're ending where we're talking about how you unpack the parts of the negotiation. And next week, we're going to come to all the ways you can solution a negotiation and nail tone throughout the rest of it. All righty, folks, hang on. 60-second recap coming up soon. Your top four actionable takeaways from this episode with Chris Voss: Number one, condition your prospect for future interactions. That means if you schedule 30 minutes and 25 minutes into the meeting, so that they're willing to come back to you again and again and again. If you overstay your welcome, once you have poisoned the well in the eyes of that person for all future interactions. Number two, do not talk to people when they are distracted. If you can tell someone is distracted or if they're in the middle of something, reschedule. Ask them to call you back later. It's not a productive use of either of your time. Three, first technique is a label. My favorite label from the episode was, "Seems like the value isn't there for you," when they ask for a massive discount. Number four, my second favorite question in the interview was, "How am I going to deliver a great service to you at half the price?" What you start to do is you start to take away the value and introduce the annoyance tax when people are trying to get a massive discount out of you. All righty, Nick, how could people help us out?
Well, if you're listening to this episode, and if you've made it this far, it seems like you might value practical, actionable, concise best practices for sales. And if that's the case, I've got not one, but two newsletters that you might consider subscribing to. Chris shared his, which is something that lands in my inbox all the time and is really helpful for me as I uplevel my negotiation skills. And Armand, I, I know you've been hard at work writing a 30 Minutes to President's Club newsletter every single week. So if you enjoyed this episode, and if you want more stuff like this in written, condensed, nicely formatted form, and if you're sick of hearing our voices, you may consider checking the show notes and subscribing to both of those newsletters.
All right, folks, we'll see you next week for round two with Chris.
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