Transcription
This is Democracy Now. Democracynow.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez.
As we talk more about the US attack on Venezuela and the abduction of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, they are now, as we broadcast, being brought into the federal courthouse in New York, brought by helicopter from Brooklyn where they have been placed in the Metropolitan Detention Center. We want to go back to President Trump speaking about Venezuela's oil on Saturday, hours after the US attack.
"In addition, Venezuela unilaterally seized and sold American oil, American assets, and American platforms costing us billions and billions of dollars. They did this a while ago, but we never had a president that did anything about it. They took all of our property. It was our property. We built it and uh we never had a president that decided to do anything about it. Instead, they fought wars that were 10,000 miles away. We built Venezuela's oil industry with American talent, drive, and skill, and the socialist regime stole it from us during those previous administrations. And they stole it through force. This constituted one of the largest thefts of American property in the history of our country. Considered the largest theft of property in the history of our country. Massive oil infrastructure was taken like we were babies and we didn't do anything about it. I would have done something about it."
That's President Trump talking about the theft of Venezuelan oil, talking about it as our oil. We're joined by two guests in our New York studio. Alejandro Velasco, associate professor at New York University, where he's a historian of modern Latin America, former executive editor of NACLA Report on the Americas, author of the book *The Rising Tide: Urban Popular Politics and the Making of Modern Venezuela*. He was born and raised in Venezuela. And Miguel Tinker Sales is with us, Emeritus professor of history at Pomona College in Claremont, California, author of *The Enduring Legacy: Oil Culture and Society in Venezuela* and the book *Venezuela: What Everyone Needs to Know*. Welcome back both of you to Democracy Now.
Professor Miguel Tinker Sales, uh, oil is what you've been covering in Venezuela for decades. Talk about Trump's comments that it's Venezuela's oil that will fund the US running Venezuela.
"Well, we heard this with Bush in the Iraq invasion that the oil from Iraq would was going to finance the intervention uh and the long-term rebuilding. The reality is that that failed in Iraq and it will fail in Venezuela. Uh, Venezuela's oil industry uh has taken a hit in the last 15 years. Uh, it is a semblance of what it used to be. Uh, and the reality is I cannot imagine any American oil company going into Venezuela uh, spending billions of dollars to build up an infrastructure um, without American boots on the ground or without very clear guarantees. And even if they did, the process would take close to a decade. Uh, so Trump is talking the same way he always does. U, it is an exaggeration. U, it is an outright lie. Um, and I I believe it to be simply another pretext, another excuse to try to convince the American public that what he did uh had any value."
And Miguel Tinker Sales, I wanted to ask you again something that we discussed on Saturday in our special uh report on the Venezuela invasion. This whole notion of Trump uh the the lie that he keeps uh uh foisting on the American public that it was the socialist government of Venezuela that took this oil when in reality the nationalization of uh Venezuela's oil industry occurred long before anyone had heard of Hugo Chavez and and the Bolivarian revolution. Could you talk about that history as well?
"Sure. Venezuela was Venezuelans were always keen on gaining control over its own oil industry. Without a doubt, American and Europeans were present at the beginning of the oil industry, but the actual work was done by Venezuelans. The actual establishment of the industry was done by Venezuelans. Um, and there was always an aspiration that that oil industry would belong to the country and the country could benefit from that more than simply providing concessions to foreign oil companies. Uh, so the nationalization was happened in 1975. It was a fully compensated nationalization taking effect on January 1st, 1976, and it was done under the government of Carlos Andres Perez, a social democratic government, not Hugo Chavez. Chavez did do uh close the door uh to openings that were there for American foreign companies uh in article five of the of the reform. Uh, and in 2007 there was a clash with ExxonMobil and Kico Phillips over oil deposits in the Orinoco basin. Um, and Chevron, I'm sorry, Exxon demanded $606 billion. A court decided that they only owed $1.6 billion. So you can see from the very beginning that the process of nationalization had been compensated uh and negotiated. So there was no taking of quote unquote American property or American oil. It was Venezuelan oil. It belonged to Venezuela and it was the purview of the Venezuelan government to decide who or what uh operated those oil fields."
And Miguel, I also wanted to ask you about other resources that have not been mentioned, but that clearly American capitalists are salivating over the prospects of of getting access to. Uh, one is coltan, a a uh a rare metal that is in most uh uh laptop computers and phones and is has uses for the military as well as diamonds and gold. You talk about the the immense resources that Venezuela has in uh in these other areas.
"Oil is only on the surface. The reality is, as you point out, Venezuela is rich in gold. It's rich in rare earths, rare minerals. It is rich in gas, one of the high largest deposits of gas in the world. Uh, it is rich in lithium. Uh, it has potential for tremendous lithium. It has coal. It has other minerals as well. So that the the position the positioning of the US as a as a uh investor in Venezuela or as a corporate interest in Venezuela is massive. It is involves not only the country's strategic position and is the interface between the Caribbean and South America, but it involves the possession of tremendous mineral deposits uh and oil deposits. It reminds me of of what the American general in charge of the Caribbean during World War II said, uh, 'Of all the countries of Latin America, I only want one ally, that is Venezuela, because they're beautifully rich in oil and minerals.' That has been the position of the US government since 1940 until the present."
I'd also like to bring in a professor uh NYU professor Alejandro Velasco into the conversation. Uh, Professor Velasco, on Saturday evening you posted on social media that it seemed as if quote Maduro was given up by the remaining government apparatus in a back channel deal. Uh, do you still think that and what would that mean? And is it your is do you believe that Delcy Rodriguez, who is now the in the will be now sworn in as interim president, was herself complicit in this operation?
"Obviously, it's somewhat speculative, but but clues point in some kind of direction that suggests that that might be the case. We we one of the things that we do know is that months leading up to of course the um the uh the abduction of of Nicolas Maduro, Maduro and people like Delcy Rodriguez, Jorge Rodriguez um and others."
Explain Jorge Rodriguez, her brother.
"Yeah, Jorge Rodriguez is Delcy's brother. Um, you both of them have..."
He's head of the National Assembly.
"He is head of the National Assembly, but has held many posts under Chavez's government and then under Maduro's government for for years. Um, you both of them have a long story tradition of leftist politics in Latin America in Venezuela in particular. Their father was a Marxist guerrilla um who was assassinated under the government um in in the 1970s in were closely allied with the United States. Um, and they've really cemented a position um in government as being right-hand people to Maduro uh for sure, Chavez before him. But what we had seen in the months leading up to the abduction was that Maduro and and and these uh inner circle uh members had been negotiating with the Trump administration things like oil deals, things like um, you know, other kinds of investment from the United States, but the missing piece there seemed to be whether Maduro would remain in power. Um, and you given how quickly the operation unfolded on Saturday and how quickly it seems that um Delcy Rodriguez has been able to you know um consolidate power over the um the intervening 48 hours, you have to assume that there was some kind of collusion or at least some kind of conversation happening between the parties beforehand. Maduro in exchange for um for remaining in power. Maduro in exchange for stability. Maduro in exchange for you know some kind of you know open dealing with the United States. Now, of course, the challenge for Delcy and others is can they straddle this line between you know doing in some ways Trump's bidding and then at the same time maintaining as Andres Chavez was saying earlier a position of sovereignty and mutual respect of rel bilateral relations between Venezuela and the United States. I don't know if they'll be able to do it."
And where, and Alejandra, go ahead.
"And Alejandra, I wanted I wanted to ask you also in uh in in terms of the ability of Venezuela to maneuver through this situation right now. You have also raised the issue that that that Cuba is also in the uh uh in the focus of the United States in terms of what it's doing in Venezuela. Could you talk about that as well?"
"I have long maintained and and and this isn't secret to anyone that Marco Rubio's primary interest in the region is not Venezuela, it's not Colombia, it's not Mexico, it's Cuba. As a Cuban-American and you know long stridently, you know, an opponent of the Castro government and of course now the current government in in in Cuba, he's made no secret of his desire to oust the government in Cuba. The problem of course for him is that Cuba has no resources that Trump would be interested in. And so he would have to sell Trump only on the basis of ideology. We have to, you know, kill a leftist government. And he now sees an opening with Venezuela. He's now able to say, 'Look, if we can deliver resources from Venezuela through a low-level, deadly of course, but low-level engagement, we can do something similar in Cuba and at the same time deliver not just Cuba and Venezuela, but the rest of the hemisphere to a Trumpist vision of the world.' You that is my sense of what is um you know, largely at stake here. So you have Marco Rubio hours after the bombing of Venezuela and the abduction of President Maduro and his wife speaking in the news conference with Trump uh saying basically Cuba better watch out. And then on Sunday you have President Trump speaking on Air Force One."
"Cuba is ready to fall. You know..."
"Cuba looks like it's ready to fall. I don't know how they if they're going to hold out, >> but Cuba now has no income. They got all of their income from Venezuela, from the Venezuelan oil. They're not getting any of it. [cough] >> And Cuba literally is ready to fall. And you have a lot of great Cubans that are going to be very happy about this."
"And then you have President Trump also threatening the Colombian president, Gustavo Petro."
"Colombia is very sick, too. Run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you."
What does that mean? He's not going to be doing it very long.
"He's not doing it very long. He has a cocaine mills and cocaine factories. He's not going to be doing it very long."
So, there will be an operation by the US and...
"It sounds good to me."
So, in a lengthy series of lengthy posts on uh X, I think it was like 700 words, Colombian President Petro blasted Trump, saying, quote, "Stop slandering me, Mr. Trump." Petro called on Latin America to unite against the US, saying the region risks being quote treated as a servant and slave. So, go from Cuba to Colombia and what this means.
"Well, certainly in the case of Cuba, what um President Trump said is is accurate in so far as most of the revenue that Cuba had been getting over the past 5, 10, 15 years was coming through the intervention of Venezuelan oil. And of course, if they closed that small spigot that had been a lifeline of Cuba, then Cuba's position is incrementally worse um and you might end up seeing protests that we've seen um, you know, prior years and as a result then, you know, a kind of pretext for intervention. But then if you link that in what Cuba represents to Latin America, which is a kind of paragon of a different alternative for Latin America as a region, a leftist alternative with all of its faults that we can of course talk about at length. um losing that for the region would then open up the door for other countries and other right-wing countries in Latin America or right-wing movements in Latin America to say now we have a White House in power and no Cuba present in in in the region or leftist government in re in in the region to be able to do what we want and so to me this is far far larger an ideological project and battle um that's being waged with uh Venezuela as a kind of instrumental piece."
Yeah, I'd like to bring uh Miguel Tinker Sales back into the conversation and this whole issue of uh Trump uh focusing not just on Venezuela but also on Cuba, Colombia and how Latin America uh you expect will respond because clearly this is not the same Latin America as I said repeatedly uh that that existed 50 years ago or 60 years ago. There's many more popular movements, stronger progressive leaders in several countries. What's your sense of how the region is going to respond in the coming weeks and months?
"Well, I think there's a difference between how political leaders may respond because obviously someone like Milei or Noboa or Bukele will respond in support of Trump. Uh, it's another thing how the population of Latin America will respond and I think that's the big difference here because as you point out uh there has been a tremendous level of mobilization of social consciousness uh that has occurred but there's also been the weight of the crisis um that has affected many countries in Latin America and left mistakes that have been made in many cases in many countries uh in their inability to deliver. But I think we're also overestimating US empire because what we saw in Venezuela uh on on Saturday, that was the spectacle of empire. It was the the the the promotion of empire um while not actually landing troops on the ground. Um, they were unable to do that because they know that they that would bog them down in a long-term war um and taking on Cuba at the same time and taking on Iran at the same time and taking on bombings Nigeria at the same time. uh and potentially conflicts in in Ukraine, in in Asia, in Taiwan, etc. I think we should not overestimate the role of US empire. I think the military in the US would push back to any kind of operation in other countries u because that would be a long-term commitment because taking Cuba means implying the same old uh Colin Powell doctrine, the pottery barn doctrine that was if you break it, you own it. So, if the US expects to have run Venezuela, they're also going to have to run Cuba and they're also going to have to run Colombia and they're also going to expect I doubt that the US military is prepared for that kind of long-term engagement. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that the US wants to remake Latin America the same way that the neocons wanted to remake the Middle East. Um, the current administration under Marco Rubio uh really wants to remake Latin America. They wanted to be the American pond. They wanted to be the Caribbean that they control. They wanted to go back to Teddy Roosevelt and guns diplomacy and big stick diplomacy uh and control the region. But again, we shouldn't overestimate the role of US empire. I think we saw on Saturday was the spectacle of empire."
I mean, completely agree with me and and that last point that he made is is so central. I think what we're seeing here is is a return to this gunboat diplomacy that um had been the hallmark of the Teddy Roosevelt period in the early 19th 20th century. I want to ask you Alejandro very quickly about [clears throat] President Trump responding to a reporter about the Venezuelan opposition leader, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Maria Corina Machado.
"Oh, I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect. I think many people were shocked that President Trump threw Maria Corina Machado under the bus. The woman who basically dedicated her peace prize and said that Trump should have gotten that peace prize. Where does this leave her? And also talk about the wife of um uh exactly who um President Maduro's wife, Cilia Flores, is. She is a key political figure herself."
"For sure. I mean, let's start with Maria Corina Machado and we have 30 seconds."
"No one could have been more surprised as she was sidelined not just at the press conference but then doubled down yesterday. Marco Rubio also saying that she's not ready, you know, to to stand in. Um, I think what they what Machado overestimated was the degree to which um Trump wanted democracy. He doesn't want democracy. He just wants oil, right? And so in that sense, you know, they it was unsurprising that she would be sidelined to anyone but her. Cilia Flores, 10 seconds."
"Cilia Flores um, you know, long story career under Chavez um was the head of the National Assembly, significant degree of political power. We'll see what emerges from this trial."
And we're going to talk more about this in these coming days. And also remember that President Trump just uh pardoned uh the convicted narco trafficker, Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez. I'm Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for watching Democracy Now on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel and turn on notifications to make sure you never miss a video. And for more of our audience-supported journalism, go to democracynow.org or where you can download our news app, sign up for our newsletter, subscribe to the daily podcast, and so much..."