Transcription
First of all, dude, I'm so excited to have this conversation. Like, fun, it's going to be fun. Um, it's going to be fun. I just want to, before we start, I want to make sure we're on the same page with, like, why we're doing this, right? Thank you. Um, I think, like, the core, it's got to be what nothing else is, which is, we're celebrating the game, y'all.
So, I think overall, like, I want it to feel comfortable, relaxed. I want it to strike a very positive tone. Um, I typically rant about things, I'm going to probably rant today, like, it, it just comes out naturally. Like, whatever. Let's do it.
[Music]
Welcome to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick. This is a new podcast presented by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. I want to be clear here, this is a basketball show. This is a show with the intention and purpose to celebrate the game, promote the game, explain the game. Uh, we will be covering a number of topics, not just the NBA, NCAA, men's and women's, WNBA, FIBA. Uh, LeBron and I are two people who, I would call us, obsessed with the game of basketball, with this sport that has given so much to us.
And two weeks ago, we sat down in LA to record the first two episodes. The first episode actually asked a simple question: What makes a great basketball player beyond just talent and skill set? And we touch on a number of things that we think, that we think make a great basketball player. This is about creating separation. Once you get to the highest levels, everybody has talent, everybody has skill. How do you separate yourself?
One of the things we talk about is basketball intelligence. In some ways, it's a nod to the title of the show. And we posit the question: Can you learn basketball intelligence? Can you learn and develop basketball IQ, or is it innate? And I would argue, of course you can. Of course you can develop basketball intelligence through film study, through great coaching, and of course, through the number one teacher, experience. And I think that's an important thing to note.
I was fortunate to play 15 years in the NBA. It was a, it was a hard 15 years of being a plumber, but I had a great experience and I learned so much about the game. And I had great coaches, and I had great teammates. LeBron, of course, has played the game at the highest level for 21 years. His experience is valuable, his basketball IQ is valuable.
One thing to note, if you are listening to this podcast, uh, we also have a video podcast available on social and YouTube. And in those videos, we will be showing the exact basketball concepts that we are talking about.
Episode one actually has, uh, a few different basketball concepts that we talk about. Episode two is a little more granular, a little more X's and O's. Uh, but episode one, we do talk about thumb down. What is thumb down? Thumb down is simply a high screen and roll, a high pick and roll. Thumb down angle, which LeBron references, is just when that pick and roll is angled to a side of the floor. So it's not in the center of the floor, it's either in that left high quadrant or that right high quadrant, closer to the sideline.
So, thumb down angle would simply be a ball handler with the ball, a player in either corner, another player in the high quadrant opposite the ball, and then the screener. And again, these two guys can play pick and roll and you play out of that. By the way, a lot of teams call high pick and roll something different. Not every team calls it thumb down. I know when I played for Stan Van Gundy and the Orlando Magic, we had thumb down, which was a high screen and roll with the five man, the center. We also had a screen and roll called thumb up, which was with the four man.
LeBron, by the way, will reference X4 and X5. Some teams call the four man X4, some teams just call them four. Some teams call the five man X5, some teams call the five man just five.
Horns chest is another play that we talk about. Horns chest is when two offensive players are in both corners, and then two offensive players are directly above the elbow or free throw line area at the three-point line, creating almost like a horns. And then the point guard plays off of that. So the point guard can dribble off either side. The point guard can also throw the ball to one of the players at the horns and they can get into screening action. This is horns. Very simple. Ball handler, player in either corner, and then two players up here. A lot of times this guy will be the five man, this guy will be the ball handler, and this guy will be the scorer or the shooter.
Boston Celtics, by the way, when they run their horns action, a lot of times the five man is spaced to one of these corners, and they involve Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, and either Drew Holiday or Derrick White. Horns chest is a very simple play. So let's say this is LeBron and this is D'Angelo right here, and this is the X5, this is the five man. D'Angelo would dribble off of a LeBron screen right here, and then the five man would then set a chest screen or a flare screen for LeBron to this side, and that's ultimately where the ball would go.
Another play we talk about is floppy, which is a play that I ran all the time. I'm not actually sure why it's called floppy. I do know that the visual for floppy was this. So I think floppy means you can basically go to either side. Floppy is when a catch and shoot offensive player goes underneath the basket, and there's two bigs, one on either side, that can screen for him, and he looks to come off of screens on either side and catch and shoot the ball. This is just a simple floppy action. So you have the two bigs, let's say this is the five man, this is the four man, this is the point guard, and then you have the two wing players underneath the basket. And let's say the two is the shooter, he can come off either side for a catch and shoot. He could also so come off the five man catch and shoot. And honestly, this is going to get a little discombobulated. I know when I played with Matt Barnes and Philly, we would just dance in circles in here and then I'd shoot out one of these sides.
When I think about the game of basketball, I regard it as so important. I care for it, I love it. I want to pay attention to it. I want to learn more about it. The game is constantly evolving. And hopefully, these discussions and conversations that LeBron and I have, sometimes with other basketball players and basketball people, hopefully we can do that. Hopefully we can teach and explain and celebrate. Hopefully we can Mind the Game.
[Music]
What did you bring? Well, we're going to start off. I brought two bottles. Chambertin 2012. I brought this. This is special. My first championship year. Very special to me. So, uh, it's a good vintage in Burgundy. Very, very good vintage. And then Lynch-Bages, '95. I just brought that. Just feel like that's a nice little aftershock. But I'm going to open the 2012 Chambertin and then we could just... That's okay. I, it's more than okay with me. I heard you was a wine guy too.
Well, I, I told you this, we were originally supposed to record this first sit-down in New York. So in anticipation of that, I actually brought three bottles of '89 L.W. Roederer to the office. And obviously, some things came up, we didn't make it work. So that's a great sound, by the way. We were both on the same page. We were both on the same page, which I love.
Um, it's funny. I, I called your game Wednesday night, uh, against the Clippers. You had just an insane fourth quarter. And I was talking about it as it relates to you, competitive stamina, which is simply the ability to do something at a high level and then get up the next day and do it again. And for you, that's happened season after season, year after year. I think the best players have a level of competitive stamina. And it's one of three qualities for me that make a great basketball player. Cuz your quote after the game, it was, "I know I was born with some gifts and athletic abilities, but that only gets you so far." For sure.
What are the qualities for you that make a great basketball player beyond just talent and skill set and size? Um, knowing the history of the game. Knowing the history of the game. Knowing the ones that came before you. Knowing the ones that paved the way. Knowing the reason why you're actually having the ability to actually live out your dream. That doesn't happen without the people that came before you. It doesn't happen without Bill Russell, you know, going through what he went through during the Civil Rights Movement and all those things. Oscar Robertson going on with what he had to deal with, you know, during those times. It does not happen if they're able to just be pure and who they are. That allows us to now perform and do it with no care.
Um, also, I think discipline. At people, you know, what people use that word so loosely. What does it mean to you? You have to have the ability when you, when it comes to discipline, it's like, you have to sacrifice loved ones. You have to sacrifice loved ones for a long period of time if you want to be great. It is very unfortunate, and you feel it at times. You, you know, you know the saying, "If, if, if the, if it's too hot, get the hell out of the kitchen." Yeah. Sometimes you just got to get out of the kitchen 'cause it gets hot. But you have to have a discipline to sometimes you have to sacrifice loved ones in order to be great because they don't understand. And, and that's okay. They don't understand what it means to, like, I am getting up every single day at 5 or 6 a.m. And when I get home after everyone leaves the gym, I'm going to take a nap. So now you're sacrificing your loved ones 'cause you're not spending time with them. And when I wake up, I'm probably going to train again, and then I'm going to have dinner, and then I'm going to bed. And I'm going to do that every single day for a long period of time. That's sacrificing and discipline.
You know, and for me, I was 18 when I came into the league. So I got my best friends from high school that's now in college. I got one that's at Ohio State, I got two that's at the University of Akron. I have another one that's at a school in West Virginia, Fairmont State. And they're calling me telling me, uh, "Hey, Oho, you got, you got to come down to the, you got to come down to these parties. You're not going to college, you're never going to be in college." You got... And I, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I look back on it now, I wish I would have done a few of them, not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie, I wish I did.
Um, but then the third thing, JJ asked, do you really love the game? Like, do you really love the game? And I'm not just talking about like wins and losses. Do you really love the process of the game and everything that happens before the referee does? Like, this, that's the easy part. You notice, you notice you was one of the first ones in the gym, one of the last ones to leave. Everyone sees when the cameras are rolling and the 20,000 fans are there and the cheerleaders are dancing and the popcorn is popping and the celebrities are sitting in celebrity row. But like, who has the love for the game when nobody is there? You know, I love all of that.
And it's interesting, the love of the game part is so funny to me because I think there's a, there's a distinction between loving the game, I.E., the game, the actual competition itself, and what it means to actually love the game and everything that goes into that. You hear guys all the time, "I just want to play." "I just want to play." Okay, do you want to do all the things that are necessary that lead up to playing the actual game? Well, the guys that say, "I just want to play," won't they? Their career won't be long. Yeah, because they're not going to put in all the other, all the intricate parts of what to get to that point. That's only going to, it's not going to last that long. It's not going to last that long. You won't have a, a long sustainable career. And, and that's okay. Some, some guys, I, I mean, you've been in a locker room. Some guys don't really care about playing a long time in this league or or having a sustained. You have so, sometimes I, I look in, like, some of the All-Star locker rooms I've been in, and you see a guy one year, or you see a guy maybe two years, and then he's, he's not in the locker room anymore after that. And you just like, wonder to yourself, why? You know, you don't know. You don't know if it's the max contract that he got after he made the All-Star team. You don't know if, if now they know him by one name for one summer. You know, you just don't know. But it's like, if you want to, if you want to be great and want to be like legendary, or not even, I don't even say that. If you want to maximize everything that you have with your career and your ability, then squeeze the [ __ ] out of that limit. Yeah. Why not?
Yeah, I want, I want to talk about each of those three things, uh, a little in depth because I also have three things. But the history of the game part's interesting to me because you brought up Oscar Robertson. Mmm. And whether the casual fan knows this or not, Oscar Robertson sued in 1970 for free agency. And that court case took six years. So the NBA really didn't have any form of free agency until 1976. Side note, in 1977, at the time in free agency, you had to compensate the team that was losing the player. Mmm-hmm. So Gail Goodrich left the Los Angeles Lakers and went to the Jazz. The Jazz compensated the Lakers with some future draft picks. One of those picks turned out to be Magic Johnson. Be magic. It's pretty interesting.
Um, you talked about the discipline. It's pretty interesting. That's pretty cool though. I like it. It's like soccer now. Yeah. Yeah, it's like soccer. You got to club. There wasn't real unrestricted free agency. John Stockton was the first guy, and that was like 1987, right? It just didn't exist. Right. The reason, I mean, I didn't make as much money as you, but the reason I got to make a lot of money in the NBA is like, it's a direct line to Oscar Robertson. Yeah. For sure. You know, let's, let's celebrate that, right?
You talked about the, the sacrificing loved ones. I always felt like my pursuit was so selfish. Yeah. And I would acknowledge that to my wife, my kids, whatever, my friends. It was so selfish. It was like, the only way that I knew how to do it. The only way. That's it. So you touched on those things. Uh, my three things are competitive stamina, which I'm going to get to in a second. The love of the game is one of mine, for sure. Caring more about your craft instead of the other stuff that doesn't matter is a direct quote from you. For sure. Uh, and then the third one, I think is basketball IQ. Yeah. Basketball IQ. I have described Nikola Jokic, I've described you as having, like, supercomputers. Like, your processing speed is a little different. I put James Harden in that category. I put Luka in that category. There's, there's a number of guys that have like a different processing speed. Some of this stuff, love of the game, that's a little bit of just desire, attitude, all that stuff. Competitive stamina, same thing. Yeah. Can you develop basketball IQ at the highest level? You can get a little smarter as a player. Can you develop it as a fun?
While you was, while when you brought up basketball IQ, I was start, the first thing that came to my mind, I started thinking right away. I was like, are you, are you born with basketball IQ, or are you taught the game the right way? And now the basketball IQ clicks on. Like, I was literally just when you was explaining that because I come from, I come from, I believe great coaching. You know, from my, literally, Coach Frank Walker Sr. to my, at the time, a coach, uh, Coach Drew Joyce, to my high school coach who was a former college coach, Coach Dan Bro. And then my, uh, coach took over when Coach Dober. I went back to college basketball. I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I, I was taught the game the right way.
Um, but the one thing that, uh, those coaches always told me, they, they told me that I had an, an uncanny ability to process information faster than anyone they've ever seen. One coach, and this is, I know you're going to, you're going to smirk about this. There's guys in the NBA that if you call a play, or coach draws a play to one side of the floor, they can't switch it in their head and do it and say, "Let's run it to the other side." Yeah. Without the coach drawing on the clipboard. Yeah. I've never understood that. And I don't know, I never understood that.
So if I say, "We running, we running thumb down angle, we're running on the right side." So, 'cause I have a left-hand point guard, he wants to come middle to a strong hand. He has the ability to hit the pocket pass with the left hand, has the ability to throw ahead, he's lefty, and also has the ability to throw back on the shake. But if I say, "Hey, we running thumb down angle on the left side," because now the right-hand guard coming right. I've had teammates that's like, "Oh, what do you, what do you mean?" Coaches always, every in practice, we only ran it from this side. Yeah. I, I could flip a play when I was 8 years old. No matter if it was just passing cut, no matter if it was, "Let's run flex, but let's start on the left side." No matter if it was just, you know, "Let's DHO, DHO, DHO, driving kick." The last one. All right, now let's, let's just drive the baseline. Baseline drive, drift. If the guy, the B, if the, if the forward on the left side's looking at the ball, you can slot cut. I could, that, I was doing that stuff when I was like 8, 9 years old. And, and my coaches would just be blown away. And I would just, I wouldn't know where it came from. I have no idea.
So to get back to your question, I think I was born with a sports IQ. And it could have been any sport, but I just think basketball was the one that I like, I was, I chose. And maybe I was chosen to do that as well. And I just took it to a whole, as I got older, and your mind gets, you start to live it, you start to want to be a part of it. You start watching. I started to watch the, I start watching the games, you know, when I was like 19 years old. I, when I first started, I was watching just a fan. I was just a fan of Michael Jordan and Anfernee Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill and, you know, those guys. I was just a fan. But then when I started playing the game, I actually started like studying what those guys were doing on on the floor and what teams were doing, how teams were guarding, how coaches were coaching, you know, sub patterns, you know, time of possession.
You know, one thing that kills me, JJ, in our league, I'm gonna tell you what kills me. Tell me. Tell me what kills you. The two-for-one shot at the end of quarters. Are you going, uh, on an anti-crusade against the two-for-one? I understand why the two-for-one is important. Obviously, it's numbers, you get two possessions, the other team gets one possession. In theory, it's a free shot. In theory, it's a free shot. But what people sometimes don't account for, the four or five possessions before that. Are we on a run? Are we on a heater? Have we gotten a good shot over the last two and a half minutes? What is the other team doing? How are they in a great rhythm? If we haven't gotten a great shot in two and a half, three minutes and we've been turning the ball over, why am I just going to dribble down and shoot a 40-footer with 33 on the clock? Why not get a look? Because that great look at the end of the third, even if we get one shot, may give us momentum going into the fourth quarter, right?
You know, it's interesting because I think it does [ __ ] with the flow of the game. And as a player, I felt that. As a broadcaster now, where I'm calling games, you can, you have such a good feel as like an outside observer, yeah, of this action happening. So, end of the second quarter, you're going into halftime with the lead. You've established, let's say, a pick and roll partnership where you're getting a good shot every time down the floor. On the other end, you're getting stops. You're getting stops. The other team's having... Why are you, you're right, why are you gonna just jack up a 35-footer? Just go to the pick and roll, rely on your defense. Now, boom, you go into the half with essentially the same momentum you would have if you get the two-for-one. Yeah.
By the way, you shouted out your coaches. I, I want to say this because I think some of it is innate with basketball. Yeah, yeah. Some of it is the way you're taught. Some of it is going back to your point about discipline, the dedication to the craft. I gotta, I gotta shout out my coaches now because Delmar Irving, Keith Haynes, Dickey V, my early coaches for the Roanoke Jaguars. Yeah. They taught me how to play. They taught me how to play with toughness. I get to June, uh, JV, eighth grade, Chris Morris, uh, Billy Hicks. Then I go to Coach K at Duke. Yeah. So by the time I got to the NBA, I knew how to process and think the game. It wasn't new to me. It wasn't new to me to think the game.
You also knew what was [ __ ] and what was not [ __ ]. Yes. There's a lot of [ __ ] that gets taught in our league because our league has been feast off potential. Guys with potential, they come in and say, "This guy has potential." We have to, if it's not year one, maybe year two, or not year three, or maybe year four, or we're going to pick up his option in year four. Like, it's been, it's been grasped on potential. Like that has been, that's the whole thing of the lottery. The whole thing of the lottery pick one through 13 or 14, I don't even know what it is now when it cuts off. Like, you've been a lottery pick. But it makes sense why those guys, that's like 16 to 30, 16 to 42, why those guys be on real contending teams making impacts. Also, why is it the same teams that always draft well and the same teams that always draft poorly? I'll tell you, when I get my team, the teams that draft well, those guys will be working for me for sure. Just, you to offer him a bag. Yeah. For sure. You got to get... OKC does an unbelievable job with that. That's a fact. That's a fact.
I was thinking about, you know, this. So by, like, the end of my first year with the Clippers, Mmm. realized all of my catch and shoot stuff, I wanted to come over left shoulder. Yes, sir. Right? I wanted to come to my right. Yes, sir. And so for the next three years, every single time we drew up a play, it was to do that. Right? When I got to, like, Philly to your point about like guys not understanding this, I got to, like, Philly and New Orleans, the coaches would drop a play in the huddle, and I'd be like, "Nah, no, no. I want to come over my left shoulder. Just flip it." And I'd walk out on the court. And then my teammates would be like, "Oh, what am I, what am I doing here?" You know what I mean? I'm like, "No, no, just, just flip it."
Which guys, by the way, the, the, the processing speed I mentioned a few guys. Guys you played with, guys you played against, yeah, that you think have that sort of high-level basketball IQ. Ran Rondo. Yeah. For sure. He has, he can process, flip, do things on the on the go. Like, it's very weird to me that he's not coaching at a high level. I think it's because he doesn't want to do it. It's a lot. It is a lot. It is a lot. Who wants to deal with all these rich, entitled guys all the time? It's, you guys make too much money. It's just a weird thing. You guys make too much. It's just a weird...
Let's get a cheers, man. Let's get a cheers, man. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you for the wine, by the way. It smells amazing, too.
Um, going back to that competitive stamina thing, 'cause I, I was calling the game and I knew this 'cause I played in LA, but Clippers home games against the Lakers is not really a home game. Half the crowd are Clippers fans, half the crowd are Lakers fans. And so the arena felt very subdued, you know, 'cause you guys were getting your ass kicked. Getting our ass kicked. The body language was bad. I think I even mentioned that on air, like, you just saw it in the huddles, you saw it coming out of timeouts, going into timeouts, you saw it when guys were getting subbed out, like, it was just bad body language. And then as Darvin Ham said, you, you decided to put your cape on and lead this comeback. You outscored the Clippers in by yourself in the fourth quarter. In that moment where you're down 19 in the fourth, a dead game, you know, your team is, I call it like letting go of the rope. You know, Doc Rivers used to always say that, "Don't let go of the rope." Y. What, what goes through your mind?
Um, you probably got a few minutes to try to change it, or you gonna get, you're gonna get pulled. Knowing it's a back-to-back, knowing that, okay, we, we lose to the Clippers, we got our ass kicked. Okay, but we, we can't then the very next night lose to to Washington as well. So I go out there at down 19, you know, with the, with the lineup I believe it, start of four lineup was myself, D'Lo, Jackson Hayes, Taurean Prince, Cam Reddish. So, you know, coach drew up a play. First play, believe, drew up horns, uh, horns chest. Um, and they, they [ __ ] up. They [ __ ] up on the on the horns chest. So we ran it again. And another thing that bothers me about the NBA too, you, why do we not continue just run the same thing over and over until they stop it? They, you, guys would run a play one time, you would score, and then they change the play. But anyways, we ran it again and they [ __ ] it up again. So I mean, for me, if I see two threes go down, I'm going to check and see if it's a heater in this, right, in this right elbow for sure. And I hit another one. And at this point now, I'm feeling really good. Um, I got a, I got a nice bounce in my, in my step. We're getting stops. And, um, you know, I take one down the right wing and, uh, PJ's picking me up in transition. And I rarely shoot the ball on the run, you know, especially if the ball's in my right hand. I rarely shoot it. But I, I had a bounce, I had a feeling. I felt like I, I said, if this one, if I can make this one go, or I know this is when like NBA Jam, you're on fire, you know, if this one goes, yeah. Um, and I let that one go from the right wing by their bench. I kind of almost bumped into T. And they call timeout. That's when I knew that the momentum can change. Um, you know, the momentum can change. And once you know, once the, once the, the, the ball, the snowball gets going down that hill, you know, snowball turns into the avalanche, and avalanche just turns into, it's over with, you know. So I just felt good at that moment.
A few things there. So like, with the three ball, we've seen it so often now. No lead is really safe. No. You think back to early in your career. I came in the league in '06, '07. I played no minutes my first two years. Yeah. But you know what? If we had a 19-point lead going into the fourth, I might get all 12 minutes of garbage time. For sure. People would, would clear their benches. This was 15 years ago. For sure. People would clear their benches with a 17-point lead in the fourth, nine minutes to go. You can't do that anymore. You can't do that anymore. You know why? Because I believe in '08, '09, or whenever that little light-skinned [ __ ] came in the league that's in Golden State, he changed that whole narrative. He did. He singly hand, single-handedly changed the "no lead is safe." It's like, it's like Pat Mahomes right now.
It's interesting you bring up Steph. Because I think there's love that guy. A long history of great players. Mmm. That have impacted the game. Mmm. And you can see a lineage between different skill steps, right? Michael to Kobe, right? You can, you can see that. I don't know that there's been a player that has influenced the game more than Steph. And you can certainly point to like Harden, for sure, in that era. Damian Lillard, for sure. But it, you're right, it started with Steph. When it comes to influence, since since I've been watching the game, since I've been watching the game, the most influence on the game, and obviously we know what Mike did for the game. Sure. You know, Steph and Allen Iverson are the, the two biggest influential guys in our game since since I've been watching and covering it. You know, one, they're 6'3", 6'4". If you want to step, not 6'4". If you want to look on the back of a basketball card, you know, you're always a lot taller on the back of the, the back of the basketball card. You know, Allen Iverson and Steph, they were just so relatable. And kids felt like they could be them. They were their, they were guys that was not always counted on. They were small in stature, and they just defied the odds.
So you got AI who's like, unbelievable crossover, cornrows, arm sleeve. Everyone wears arm sleeve now because of Allen Iverson. And he's going in the trenches, you know, laying it up over bigs, whatever the case may be. And now you have Steph who's shooting over the Empire State Building. You know, it's like, those two are the two most influential when you say the game, how they changed the game, and the kids. And, like, those are two guys that you just want to watch every single night. I have an arm sleeve because of Allen. Like, no, no [ __ ]. No, no [ __ ]. One of my tattoos is because of Allen Iverson. Sure. And Steph, I think he changed, like, the influence with Steph, I think is like, he fundamentally changed how we viewed how the game should be played with the three-point shot.
Do you think, 'cause part of the Steph thing in this three-point revolution for a fan is that we have now simplified the NBA. All right, we're just going to shoot a bunch of threes. Yeah. My question to you, going back to that basketball intelligence piece, does the game require more basketball intelligence now, or does it require less than when you first started?
From, you can't ask me that because I'm always side on basketball IQ. Yeah. Always. Um, I think throughout the regular season, you can get away with a low IQ team if you're talented. You can get away with it in the first round, and maybe get away with it in the second round. When you get to the Conference Finals and you get to the finals, obviously the top four teams in the Conference Finals, they have players. Unless a team just happened to hit a heater and they just get lucky. But the top four teams normally are going to be the team with the best players. Four, the best coaches. And what's going to separate them is now the basketball IQ kicks in because you, there's moments in the game that a coach cannot prepare you for. Film can't prepare you for. The history of the game can't prepare you for where you have to have a basketball IQ to make adjustments right away. And if you don't have that level of mind frame or capacity, then a team like Denver, who has one of the greatest IQ guys that we've ever seen in Jokic. You know, Golden State, Draymond, Steph. Any one of my teams, if I played you in the finals, myself and when I won in '20, it was myself and Rondo on the floor. So you, you, I think that those things, those things help. I, I believe that when Golden State beat Boston, it came down to IQ in the finals. 'Cause Boston, to me, had the better talent. Boston had the better talent, but it came down to IQ.
People say experience. IQ. I made this comment the other day about Tatum. It feels like with him, the reads are quicker. Making the right play. It's just quicker. There's no, he doesn't fight the game as much. I did, uh, the details thing for ESPN. Yeah, yeah, yeah. During that finals, and I, I did. Clay was the first episode, Steph was the second episode, Tatum was the third. And so I had all these Tatum clips. I got to go through and break down. I don't never watch the episodes. They, you know, it's beyond a paywall. Um, but you know what I saw? Was on the isolations on the on the wing. So a lot of times would be in the slot, yeah, the high quadrant, right? And they've given him space. They would bring that low man over early. Sometimes it was Draymond. Y. But not always. Sometimes it was Clay. Y. And very rarely did he end up getting the Golden State Warriors into rotation. Yeah. Now it feels like he's just making the play off the ball. Now, it did happen a couple times in that finals. Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't as quick, and it was rare. Yeah. And obviously with their personnel, like, it's different now with Porzingis. But I think that's, that's part of like the growth.
So even going back to like the question about, can you teach basketball IQ? In some ways, it's, it's innate, right? But in some ways, if you're studying it and doing it, you can see the growth in a player. Yeah. Because I mean, you know, there's a great saying that says, "The best teacher in life is experience." And we look at Tatum. I mean, he's 25 years old. He's 25 years old. And I believe he's been to the Conference Finals four times. Uh, been to the, the, obviously the NBA Finals once. He's 25. I didn't, I mean, I didn't win my first one till I was 28. I think Jokic won his first one at 27. I think MJ was 28 as well. Um, Kobe without Shaq was around the same age. Was so like, you know, I think we have a, um, you know, we have a lot of expectations on JT. But he's, he's experienced a lot of winning in his career so far. And obviously, we, you know, everyone wants to see him get over the hump. But four Conference Finals in a, in a Finals appearance before the age of 26, is that's elite. And like you just said, he's, he's continued to grow. And, you know, they are in a position where they can make another title run. And like you said, personnel helps. You know, Adam Porzingis and, and getting Drew for a bag of L potato chips. That, that helps as well. That helps as well. But, uh, you know, JT is definitely the, the, you know, when you, when you, when you go, you start scouting for Boston, he's a, he's a number one guy for sure.
Basketball IQ, to me, when you were earlier than me, when I first got in the NBA, though, what that meant to me, in some ways, was being able to remember a play. Honestly, as simple as that. Uh, being able to recognize patterns. You come out of an ATO. Okay, oh my God, there's a misdirection here. I know there's going to be a pin down coming. Right? It's just that's pattern recognition. Offensively, defensively, it's just making the right read. The game, like, all that, that's that's basketball IQ. I think what's interesting about today's NBA is what smart coaches do and what smart players do, which did not happen when I first got to the NBA. Nearly every possession, all you're doing is trying to find the right matchup, a target. You're, it's, you're playing chess on the possession. Target basketball. Yeah. And that, to me, is the biggest difference. Yeah. That never happened, bro.
I was watching a game, I was calling a game, actually. Guy had the ball, good offensive player, had the ball at the top of the key. And they're playing the Clippers. And end of the shot clock, seven on the clock. Another guy off the ball is being guarded by Kawhi Leonard. And he comes up to set a pick and roll for the guy with the ball. And it makes no sense. And I'm like, that's just low basketball IQ. Just low basketball IQ. Keep Kawhi away from the ball. That is low basketball IQ. That doesn't make any sense. And that happens a lot. N. And I'm going to go back to when you first started it. You said remembering a play. How many guys [ __ ] up a play out of timeout? Burns me alive. It burns me alive that a coach can sit there and guys, all five guys, 10 eyes are looking at the play, and they come out of time, I [ __ ] it up. It bothers me so bad. But yeah, like you said, you knew like when you played, you had two reads. I'm coming off left, right. And if the big is not up, I'm shooting that [ __ ]. And it's, and if the big is up, I'm pocket passing. Yeah. What else are we talking about?
Well, the one other thing, the one other thing. Sometimes the big would be back, right? And I'd get the stunt off the pass. Get the stunt off the pass. So like, when I played in Philly, they would do that off Ben. And then I would just kick to Ben and he's got a head of steam going down the L. Well, I mean, and when you got, you got to read the nail guy too. You got to read the nail guy. I, I don't, don't kind of like underestimate. Well, that's not. Well, that's not. Yes, I agree. Agree. I agree. I was more thinking with the Clippers, I was thinking more with the Clippers or pocket to to. It's so weird though, because, you know, even like the, the coverage on catch and shoot stuff. And there's not a ton of catch and shoot guys right anymore. We're like, you're not running floppy. Happen a lot. But like when I first started running it, or like Ray in Boston. Yeah. When you're running that, you would always stunt up with the big, with the big, and the pocket pass was always there. Always there. Once teams started playing more drop coverage, they just kept the big back in catch and shoot. And so a lot of times that that help would actually come off the passer. So if they knew we were in to catch and shoot play, kick to me, that the help comes off the passer, then it's, then it's I got to make that read back to the top.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, it's, you know, because now offense is so more extended now. You know, the big could be the guy that can help up a little bit because, you know, if you look at like Rip Hamilton, you know, at the time, he wasn't, he wasn't coming off their floppy down action going to the three-point line. He was coming off more elbow action. So you can kind of, you know, contact help with the big. And then mostly when we, obviously when we came in the league, there was a point guard in the front, there was a another forward at the free throw line, and there was two bigs. So even if you did get extended a little bit, when you made the pocket pass, at least the other big, X4, X5, could come over and help. Now, well, like, you know, in Boston's case, it's their five guys on on the perimeter at one time. Nobody's in the paint. Nobody's in the paint. You have Drew, Jason, uh, you know, Brown, you know, um, Porzingis could be at the top, he could be, you know, you got Derrick White. They're all over the place. So, you know, the, the, the level of where you help from has changed a lot because the bigs in basketball history have been programmed to help no matter where they are. And that's where IQ comes in too. You got certain bigs that, you know, if I just drive this slot and they say, "Don't help strong side shooter in the corner," that is the easiest three. You just know there's certain bigs that he's going to leave no matter what because he's been programmed his whole life to protect the rim.
Um, I think we're there. 'Cause if I, if I go to the next thing, we're going to talk for another hour. Yeah, 'cause I can talk. No, no, no. I'm serious. Like, 'cause I mean, that was, that was legitimately what I had. Is episode one. All right. That's been fun. How was it? Yeah, just keep rolling. How was it? Seven part. That's that's me only. Okay. You know, we got, we got room for improvement. This has been episode one of Mind the Game. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.
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