Dental School Admissions Playbook w/ Harvard D2 & D3 Students | Pulp Podcast Ep. 11

I think people will go back in time. I'm speaking to our audience directly. You'll go back in time to listen to this episode because we have some awesome perspectives about how to get into dental school and how to get into endo residency and maybe residency as a whole.

So, and to answer the big scary question of "You post a video, how to get into I got into Harvard Dental School." The first comment is always, "Stats?" And to my answer to that is, look at the range on the internet. If you fall within the range, you have a good shot. Even if you don't, you still might have a shot. That's one of the things I looked for with my applicants. I wanted to see if they made the effort, if they had the energy, if they had the desire to learn about the program before I interviewed them.

So, when I would interview an applicant, as I mentioned earlier, I would try to find out kind of the honesty quotient. Uh, there's ways I can ask questions. And, you know, the worst thing they can do is try to think, "What's the answer I'm looking for?" I wasn't looking so much specifically for an answer. I was looking for the delivery.

The question of how to get into endo residency. I think I have three things to say: Network, network, network. And the reason I say that is because I can see myself, if I hadn't come to our program and hadn't met under uh Annie as my program director. Uh, I could, the kind of person I was, you know, my wings could have been clipped very quickly by a program director who wanted to have control. Right. Right. Somebody who wanted to kind of make sure that everything is done exactly the way they want to have it done. And they were very much averse to creativity, thinking outside the box for somebody who who wanted to do different things. Us on this front.

So, we'll start with this big question: How do people get into dental school? Yeah. I think one is, you need to know your why. Think big picture in terms of like, what, what are your big goals and what impact do you want to have for your whole life? And then let that be your intention for all the things that you do. Um, that's personal to everyone, and so that will make you unique. Like, no two people will have the same vision or the same passions. Um, and then for applying that, there are certain things that will, like, you know, they, they show skills that will scale to a career in dentistry.

Audio sync. All right, welcome to the Pulp Podcast, where we talk about all things dentistry and non-dentistry from a generational perspective. I'm joined today again with my co-host, Dr. Anne Koch, from Cape Cod, joining us remotely, and Dr. Parsa Shahidi. All right, Parsa. So, we've had a few of these podcast episodes. Today, we have a special one where we're going to be talking about dentistry, student life. So, it's going to be one for the young people. So, why don't you go ahead and introduce our guests?

Yeah, today's such an interesting conversation because I think people will go back in time. I'm speaking to our audience directly. You'll go back in time and listen to this episode because we have some awesome perspectives about how to get into dental school and how to get into endo residency and maybe residency as a whole. So, I think it's a really important conversation to have. So, we're really excited because we have two um of my colleague superstars, Roene Nasr and Heidi Shen, at the Harvard School of Dental Medicine. And we're super amped. We see you guys all the time. We're so excited to have you here. So, welcome.

Thanks. We're super happy to be here. Yeah. Second and third year dental students, right? Really bright, amazing um pedigree and background. So, go ahead, talk a little bit, introduce yourselves first quickly. Why don't we go first with you, Rowan?

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's, yeah, it's such a pleasure to be here. Super excited to kind of jump in, talk about all things that two years ago I was dying to know. So, I'm sure this podcast is going to be, you know, super applicable for everyone out there who's looking into dentistry, already in dental school, and just thinking about the future in general. Um, I'm a second-year dental student at Harvard this year. I grew up in Syracuse, New York for some of my high school. Some of it was in Canada. And then I made my way over to Philadelphia for undergrad. So, I went to went to UPenn. And then after Penn, I didn't take any gap years and went straight through into dental school. So, this is my now second year. And yeah, super exciting.

Awesome. Yeah. How about you, Ivy?

Yeah. So, thank you both so much for having us here with you today. Um, it's really nice to be able to chat and talk about our journeys. Um, so I was born in Austin, Texas and then I moved to San Diego when I was seven. Um, lived there for most of my life and then I moved to the East Coast for college. Um, spent three years in Pennsylvania at Lehigh University and then moved up to Boston where I've been for the past two, two and a half years um for dental school at HSDM.

That's awesome. I think um, you know, it's a cool conversation today because we have um, the full spectrum. We have previous endo director, Dr. Koch, right? The first endo program director uh at Harvard endo. And you taught Dr. Nasseh. And Dr. Nasseh, of course, is uh my attending in the endodonics department and as a resident. And then we have the dental student perspective. So, the goal of the conversation today is kind of talk about what we feel are the keys to success to get into dental school, having been through that and obviously getting to Harvard. And also from the endodontics perspective. And then hearing from you, Dr. Nasseh and Dr. Koch, what makes a unique candidate? And I hope that this can sort of be applicable to everybody across the the field who's applying. So, maybe I'll start off uh asking you guys, what do you feel the keys are to uh getting into dental school as a college student or otherwise?

I love that. I feel like that's the the big question that everyone's asking, "How do I get in?" And I think there's a lot of nuance to it, but this is something I always say when people are asking me, "You know, how did you get to where you are?" And I'm going to be so honest. I can't say that there's a formula. And I almost believe that if you're trying to follow a formula, you're not doing it right. And so I always tell people that are asking me, "What did you do? Can you send me your essays? What activities did you do?" And I really truly believe that if you're not kind of approaching it from a way where you feel passionately about what you're doing, you're entering it, and you're doing the activities that bring you joy, bring you life, and make you excited, then I think you're one, not making the most out of the process because in our field, there is so much, you know, delayed gratification. And if you're always waiting for the next step, "Oh, when I get into dental school, I'll be happy. Oh, when I get into residency, I'll be happy." You're missing out on so many of those moments where you could be doing the process, but be happy doing the process. And so I think the key to getting into dental school is to do it because you love it. And then to do all the things on the way that bring you joy and happiness and closer to your goals. And so as you kind of narrow down your goals and where you see yourself in the field, you start to pick and choose where your time can be most valuable, but also not forgetting to spend time with yourself and those that you love.

Makes sense. Yeah, totally. Totally. I guess I'll, I'll pause you before you answer. I'll ask this to the group. Do you think that it's clear that like, I mean, one thing is for me, I knew I decided really late to go into dental school and same thing with endo. So, if I didn't tell you this, Dr. Nasseh, Dr. Gibbs, you don't know! Hey, that's a red flag! Yeah. But, you know, I didn't know so early. And I think it's a testament for people who do that they want to go into dentistry. So, how do you know that you wanted to go into dental school? How do you find out? How do you go about that process as a young person who has so many different options? And we can all talk about this and we'll sort of hear from you. What do you guys think? What, what's the key there? How do you find out?

Yeah. So, um, I started out with the process of elimination. I feel like. So, in um, I, I knew that I wanted to be a dentist when I was a sophomore in high school, which is very early on. And it started with me as a child having like low tolerance for things that I didn't want to do. So, I was like, if I don't want to do it, I will not force myself to do it. Like, there are necessary things you have to do, like you have to go through history class, but I'm not going to like do extra history if I don't want to do it. Um, both my parents are engineers, and I was like, I see, I mean, I respect engineers. I just know I can't do it myself. I knew that I um, love being with people and building relationships, you know, being one-on-one with people. Um, having a service-oriented career. That was the thing that I felt most passionate about then, like just serving and like giving to others. Um, and then, um, sophomore year of high school in the spring, I had a chance. So, being from San Diego, Tijuana is like, you know, right across the border. Um, so I had a chance to go with doctors and dentists from my church and like partner organizations in San Diego and LA down to Tijuana. And I saw how um, with dentistry, it's, it's a skill that you can bring with you wherever you go. It's not just confined to the city that you live in or the office that you practice in. You can bring that with you. And that like foundation of trust that you enter into when you meet a stranger crosses all language barriers, cultural barriers, you know, you could, it could be this like, you know, just two people in completely different stages of life, completely different backgrounds, and still they have a common ground. And, you know, it just is completely different than two strangers. And I was captivated by that. Um, and it left me with a lot of questions going home because that was the first time that I had seen such a different lifestyle. Um, and I, the, the conclusion that I came to after that trip was like, I have so many blessings in life. And it, it's not because I'm more intelligent or that I'm better equipped to like use these opportunities or resources than any of the girls that I met there. I was put in this position so that I could like pour out any blessings that I receive onto others. Like, it's not that's very noble. That's nice. I mean, that's the hallmark of all healthcare uh, you know, uh, industry is the fact that you care. And so, if you're in a service kind of, you know, oriented mentality, it's kind of a great fit, you know, say healing arts obviously in many ways. So, that's terrific. It's wonderful to to hear that you've you've done uh so well.

So, let's get some perspective because Annie always has like a big picture view of things. So, let's have her come in.

Big picture is a nice way of saying old. No, no, no. That's that's wisdom. When I when I applied to dental school was very early in the 70s, okay, 1971. And dental school then was very different. And one of the big things was of course uh it was predominantly um male applicants and and men as dental students. Um, at Penn, there was 152 people in my class. There were only eight women, and that was a record class size for women. But what was so interesting is that because it was a draft deferment, you had amazing applications. Like, for instance, in my dental class, I think we had eight or nine graduates of Yale College and Harvard College. Uh, I don't know anybody else from Yale College who ever went to dental school, right? U medical school. Okay. And even with Harvard. But what was interesting, it was a draft deferment, so we were getting incredible applications. At our 10th year reunion, probably 40% of my class wasn't even involved in dentistry anymore, but they were incredibly, incredibly smart, creative people. So that changes into where we are now. And um, as I mentioned a little bit before, I had the uh, distinct honor, and I think it was a privilege, of interviewing applicants for Harvard Dental School for a number of years. And the question that everybody always asks, and anybody who's thinking about applying to dental school must prepare for, is the proverbial, "What made you think about becoming a dentist?" And I think it is really, really interesting the background in those years, and I'm saying those years meaning the early 70s, it was staggering what a large percentage said, "Well, I had braces as a kid." Wow. It was watching how the orthodontic practice worked and how here was the doctor had a whole team of assistants because back in those years, believe it or not, folks, uh, a lot of dentistry in this country was divided through home offices, and it was nice Dr. Brown and nice Dr. Smith, kind of a one-man show, maybe a person who would sit at the desk and fill in as an assistant. And I just gave a talk last week and I showed pictures and Ali can vouch for this, Ali and Parsa, uh, of me working in the Air Force without any gloves. We didn't start wearing gloves into 1982, right? So, uh, it was a different time, but things changed uh reflecting how the times themselves have changed. So now you you realize that you know predominantly, and the ratios can vary up to 7 to 1 female applicants to male applicants. And what I have found, everybody, is that um, a few years ago, I really made a lot of visits around this country to medical schools as well as dental schools talking about cultural competency. And the one thing I came away from both schools is that the people who are in dental school and matriculating in medical school these days, whether an allopathic or an osteopathic medical school, they're there because they want to be there. It's not because it's a draft deferment or like, "I'm just going to do this until like the draft passes over." The young men and women I've met, Parsa, are in medical school and dental school because they want to be there. I think that's a signal change.

Yeah. I mean, there's, if you think about the logic behind what we're doing, is we're committing ourselves to this really competitive process. Yeah. We're studying for all these exams. We're trying to get 4.0 GPAs. Then we're spending a lot of money on the applications and the whole process. And then we send in these applications, and then they select you for interviews, and then you beg them to get in, all to pay $500, $600,000 to go through this process. So, I totally agree. You better believe that we want to be there by the time we're there. But what I'm curious about is how people find out they want to be there at such a young age. I mean, I didn't know I wanted to be a dentist at all. I, I sometimes I even think it's kind of random that I'm here, to be honest. So, I'm curious, you know, Dr. How did you find out about this process? You, you have a unique story. I know that.

No, no. I mean, for me, it was kind of a given. I kind of grew up in a family, dental family. My dad was an oral surgeon. Growing up, you know, wanted to grow up to be like my dad. So, just, you know, it was always a given. That kind of does help to know early on, in fact, um, because it does help you, uh, be more efficient in the process of what you want to do. Because I see so many people get into the process and they're jumping from one topic to the other. They're trying to find out what they like. And often times, to be honest with you, I tell people, make the decision for what you want to be based on reasons that are rational and wise for your specific situation. And then try to be as good as you can be in whatever you decide to do. And then the love comes with it, like the passion. And people have this Hollywood idea that like, you, you want to go do something, you know, you got to be passionate about it and go do it. I mean, in fact, I've never met anyone who's passionate about any specific thing that you know, we do in these type of service industries, per se. You may like service, but like the idea of doing any of these things is not necessarily something to be passionate about. But once you get into it, and then you have the right attitude, and you really try to master whatever you do in life, doesn't matter what it is, I feel like the passion comes after. So, it's one of those things where, you know, it's just putting the the cart before the horse sometimes is by just uh, doing the passion. But I feel it's much better to to kind of um, uh, do something that is the rational thing for you, given your situation, and the things that you want, or the kind of lifestyle that you want, or X, Y, Z. And then, and then just dedicate yourself to it and be as good as you can be. And then before you know it, you get better at it. You develop a passion. I mean, Annie and Heidi, you guys play tennis, and actually Rowan, you play tennis, too, right?

I do. Yeah. So, this the same. Any of these sports. And you play tennis, too. Actually, we should we should play. Yeah. Here and then. Dr. Beat us up though. Betting on the ladies over there, right? Next podcast on the. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No. Right. But but but I mean, it's like, you, when you start these sports, you're not necessarily a passion about a sport before you kind of you go and do it, and you kind of realize, I like this, and then you get good at it. And as you get better and better at any of the sports, suddenly you begin to like it more and more, right? So, I think that the, if the effort is put into getting good at whatever you do, that passion part will come. So, for me, that was my story. Uh, Annie explained that she had a unique story too, in that sense. But I'm going to, I'm going to pass out because I have a question I've got to ask because I think this is so important. It has to do also with the school for both of you ladies. Did you have a sense of any outreach by any local dental association or dental schools in terms of kind of recruiting you to the idea of dentistry is a fabulous profession?

Um, I can't say that I did. That's amazing at Penn because, you know, as you know, Penn for like 150 years has been multiple track program, crazy, which is wonderful, right? I know, like, DMD, MBA, MD, MPA, that kind of thing, right? I agree. And it's been wonderful. And I can't believe the dental school didn't have a reach out to you guys promoting dentistry as a career. So, it's interesting. I think that, so they make an effort, absolutely, to like, everything in the space is very accessible. But it's almost that you have to be the and seeking it out. And so, I actually found dentistry through shadowing in my hometown in Syracuse first. Once that excited me a little bit, and I saw myself doing it, I brought it back to Penn, started, you know, I found a PI at the dental school. I started shadowing and assisting there and just learning about it through there. But I wouldn't say that I was necessarily exposed to it before I decided I wanted to be exposed to it. Joining pre-dental club, you know, they do those presentations, but you have to be almost someone who's like looking for them, right? Yeah.

So, you know, becoming a dentist, like we talk about like how, what is our background and so on, but what is, what does make Annie, in your opinion, and also in everybody's opinion here, actually part of what makes a good dentist? Or for that matter, maybe later on, we talk about what makes a good endodontist? Because, you know, I think in some ways, we need to kind of first define what makes a good dentist. What are the qualities that make one? So that for people who are interested in becoming dentists, see if that even matches the personality. I mean, that may not be the right thing for them, right? I mean, then we can talk about how to get into dental school. Let's just kind of set the stage for what makes a good dentist in this field. What do you think are some of the qualities, Annie, that you want to? Years ago, when you applied to dental school, uh, you had to do a chalk carving? Is that crazy? You had a piece of chalk and you had to do a couple of carvings on it, and you got graded. That was part of the thing in addition to the test. I'm assuming no one's doing chalk carving anymore, right?

No. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That that test to me was like completely useless. What is that going to prove? Only thing that proves is somebody took a crash course like a Kaplan course and practiced chalk carving, right? But for most people, you never charge, you never carve chalk with a buffalo knife. Also, when I went to school, this is many years ago, um, in dental school, it was predominantly uh engineers. A lot of engineers had applied to dental school, and I could understand some of that, but I think, you know, uh, Heidi, as you know, engineers are pretty firm in their way of thinking. Yes. I'm not going to open up a can of worms with that. No, it's it's absolutely true. I mean, you know, uh, you're an exception. But most engineers, and I understand why, think that they know everything and they're very. Now that you say that, actually. Yeah. But anyway, I, I am still impressed anytime I go over a bridge with engineers. So, like, so, He, from what you say, from the chalk carving, I would assume that what you're talking about is having a sense of manual dexterity, right? Because there's one thing is just, you know, how books smart people are. Chalk carving didn't prove that. Didn't prove that. But that isn't, but don't you think that's an important part of it? Because, you know, it is. Don't I think anybody? I'll give you an idea of, you think everybody can learn to to to be good manually? We, we only had, and this was really uh wonderful at at Penn, Rowan, because we had a couple of students that by junior year, you realize they couldn't even make a preparation in an ivory tooth. Oh gosh. It would be just a black, smudgy, melted mess, right? So, what the school ended up doing, there was some other schools in the area that were actually failing out junior students. Wow. Like, how, how does it take you three years to make a decision that this young man or woman is not going to make it all the way through? Yeah. Wow. So, uh, we had, we had three people at uh, in my class, and what they ended up doing, two went over to the med school, and one, one went over to the vet school. All right. But everyone else, the other 49 people learned how to make things. And so, I think the dexterity thing is a little overplayed. What I'm looking for, I'm looking for a person who can think on their feet. And as I mentioned last week about grace, I really want somebody who can empathize with the patient. Totally. Uh, you know, when you're dealing with people, and especially anyone thinking about endodonics, my god, you know, when you come in and you have a patient sitting perpendicular in a chair and you say, "Hi, good morning. I'm Dr. Cotch." And they start crying, that's going to be a challenging appointment. So, I really look for people um, and and I think, and I'm not going to get into the women have more empathy than men. You guys can make your own decisions, but I, uh, I, I'm really looking for someone who can think, make decisions on their feet quickly, make the right decisions, and who has the ability to empathize.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I have to say, I think um, I think the way that I look at getting into dentistry is a little different. I think first of all, you need to have the interest to help people. So, that's step one, right? Step two, I think. So, then we have, we're thinking about all these healthcare. You could be a physician, a dentist, a vet, you could do, you could be a physical therapist. We have all these things at our disposal. And then so, why, why dentistry? I think dentistry is cool, and I'm preaching to the choir because it allows people who are interested to do maybe more than just serve people in the healthcare capacity. That luxury, they can afford um, a great lifestyle with a lot of their own time at their own disposal. Yeah. You know, like you said, Dr. Cotch, it's like dermatology or ophthalmology or some of those things where you get a lot of your own time to to be managed at your own disposal. That's second of all. Third of all, I think if you're entrepreneurial or if you're innovative, I think dentistry is a great pathway for you because it allows you that time and also bandwidth to do so. Um, you know, medicine is so impressive, but also can be grueling. So, sometimes if we're, if we're thinking about, let's say, some of our uh, friends or colleagues who are in cardiology or neurosurgery, those those hours are demanding. So, dentistry is a great balance for that. For the folks who are doctors by nature, want to help people, but want to express this other part of them. And that's what got me interested. But I think the, the key, your question, Dr. I said, was, what is the, what makes a good dentist? And I think the answer is, you have to have some level of resiliency and some level of composure, right? When you come over and you tell us, you know, we're, we're trying to to find this MB2, and we're 13 millimeters trough, and you come over and do it in two minutes, it blows our mind. But the reality is, it's, it's a resilience, composure. We may get flustered, but you tell us, you know, you have to stay calm. You have to just focus on what you're doing. So many things go wrong, I feel like, on a day-to-day, and you have to be able to maintain that to be good as a dentist. That's just my two cents. I don't know what everyone else thinks.

Everybody here has a learning background. We all know that learning is iterative, right? I mean, ultimately, it's all about resilience because you have to get used to making mistakes and then not take them too personally so that you can then grow and and get better. It's the only way you do get better. Um, so that's completely given. You know, I, all of us start from a state of like, not knowing anything, and we make plenty of mistakes. And and then you go through the mistakes. And what I tell the residents, Annie, listen to this, is that I say that, you know, look, all that happens as you get better is the amplitude of your good days and bad days become shorter, but you still make mistakes because you're human. It's just that it's much less and less, much less catastrophic, and it's, you know, you can manage them and you can manage um, you know, contingencies and complications. So, those are the things. But I want to get back to the manual dexterity, Annie, because I mean, that, like to me, that's an important part. And then that's like, it's not tested in dental school, right? And that's an important part unless you want to be, I mean, you have, we have the option of going into what, uh, you can oral pathology, you could go into oral radiology, you could go into anesthesiology, you can even go to ortho. You can also work for the insurance company, consulting. Do you guys think dexterity is important? I mean, what do you think?

I think that it, well, so I think in dental school, if you come in with good manual dexterity, it'll give you a leg up. Yeah. But that's like looking at the beginning, right? I think if you look at someone who comes in with really good manual dexterity versus someone who struggles a bit more, like, there's a big difference year one, but then when you look at year 50, I don't believe there's going to be a huge difference. I feel like attitude matters more. Like, like there, okay, there's someone who has poor manual dexterity who's like, "That's fine. Like, you know, I will like put in three extra hours on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then, you know, this is how I'm going to get better. I'm going to work with my faculty and like tutors." That's one person versus someone who's like, "Gosh, I suck. Like, I don't want to go practice." And then that's really going to be the.

So, that's actually a very good point. So, you may not have the manual experience to begin with, but if you have resilience, you will learn it as opposed to give up too quickly because you realize, "Look, I just don't have the hand skills." So, I'm going to make a bunch of mistakes and I'm going to give up. So, I think that's actually very good. It dovetails well with resilience. So, it's a, you know, you learn that as a as a motor skill. But carving a piece of chalk doesn't really show that. That's what my whole point was on. Yeah, I guess. So, you're right. Yeah.

Get back with what Heidi was talking about. I remember when we first started doing, you know, putting wax on things and carving teeth, and we were all thumbs. There were three people in my class. Their teeth looked like they were like cast. It was like perfect, right? But all three had worked the summer in a dent lab. So, they had a huge jump on everybody else because they had actually worked in a dent lab. But by year two, everybody, it wasn't like 50 years. It was much quicker. Everybody got to that same kind of level, except for like the two or three people.

Carving a piece of chalk, handy could also, you know, land you a nice gig as on a side job to work at a cruise ship and do some nice carving at a dinner table or something. I was like an economics major, right? And they used to have preparatory courses where people would learn how to carve a piece of chalk with a buffalo knife. I think that's borderline absurd.

Well, forget borderline. It's absurd. Okay. I have to let me ask a question because I think this is a huge deal and it was for me on asking the question side of the equation. I think the interviews are incredibly important. Oh, yeah. And um, jumping the gun a little bit, Paul. So, certainly when I was looking at endodonic uh interviews, I would get all my applications and I would cut it down to 20 people and it would start all over, just like playoffs in baseball, the playoffs in hockey or basketball, right? If you were the first person I was thinking of asking or the last person, number 20, everybody started equally again, and then you had to sell to me why I should take you. Going back prior in the process to the dental school. Uh, did both of you uh, interview at schools? At at Harvard, among other schools? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Could you share a little bit of that process? Because I think when I used to do a lot of interviews, uh, even on the on the post-doc side, I would interview people kind of as the warm-up interviewee and the interviewer because they would realize, "Well, Annie's pretty chill, Dr. Kotch is pretty chill." And people would be like, "So nervous, right?" And I would like have them relax, you know, take it easy. This is this is fine. But the one thing I really forgot, and then all of a sudden it became very aware to me, most faculty people are not fully aware how much stress students or prospective applicants put upon themselves. So, when you go in for the all-important interview, guess what? It is all important, but how you handle that is so difficult and so challenging. So, I would like to hear from both you ladies uh, how you prepared and how your interview process went.

Absolutely. I think this is something I thought a lot about. Well, one, because I love to chat, and so an interview is actually one of my favorite parts of the application process. I, and it kind of brings me back to what I was talking about earlier, just because I think that I involved myself in things I really cared about. I am just so giddy at the fact of like, when I get the opportunity to talk about it. And I always tell people, the reason why I give you this advice is because when you go to sit down in your interview, if you're saying, "Yeah, so I published an abstract," versus, "I did research in this lab, and this is the work," and you can just tell when someone's excited about what they're doing, and and that's what they want to do. And you're like, "Yes!" Because I think what we were all kind of getting at, and I think what I narrowed it down in my head was how multidisciplinary and multifaceted dentistry is. And what makes a good dentist is, I kind of like boil it down to three things. One is who you are with yourself. How resilient, how resilient you are. How much you're willing to work on yourself, improve yourself internally. The second is how you are with patients. How do you build rapport? How do patients feel when they talk to you? It's so important the way you're making that patient feel in the chair, regardless of your knowledge, regardless of the textbooks. And then the third is how are you with your team? Because dentistry is such a team sport. And I know that dentists have so much ability to kind of like take themselves in the path and direction that they want, but they're still working with so many people along the way. And how you interact with others, both at your level, and honestly, everyone's at our level. It's just, we're all doing different things. And so it's how are you interacting with those people and how are you carrying yourself both in and outside of the clinic. And so I think that's what the interview is meant to do is to see all of those sides of you come together, speak about who you are as a person, what matters to you, and what you've done, and why you want to go into this field or or specialty or whatever. And that's kind of the chance where you get to showcase the the genuine aspect of that, and that you are more than who you are on paper. Because being on.

Yeah. I think it's different. Yeah. I think that over time, how I've started to see interviews is just like a personality check. Like, you've made it this far. There are so many things you had to do to get to this point, and you walk through all those doors. Now it's like, you're smart. You're hard work. Like, you check all these boxes. Now, are you a good person? Like, is, you know, like we see each other a lot around school. Is this someone that we want to add to the community? Because each person shapes the culture of the school. So, is this someone who has a culture that we want to like, you know, add to the school? Is this someone that people would enjoy talking to? Um, and I think that like, just thinking about that, because I, I think that is like, when I interview people, I'm like, "Do I like you? Are you like a good normal person? Are you fun to be around?" And that took a lot of pressure off of my interviews as well. Um, so I felt like the majority of my interviews were very conversational, very casual. But there was one school that I think played the good cop, bad cop style. And so I think that they sent the first person in to relax you. Um, like it was so chill. I think he asked me one question and then we just talked about sports for the rest of the time. It was so chill.

Sounds nice. Yeah. So nice. And then the next interviewer, we went through 20 questions in like 35 minutes. And they were hard questions, but I was like, "At the end of the day, like, this is, she's a mom, you know, like, she's a person. And like, yeah, she's a dentist, she's an interviewer at this school, like, prestigious school, but at the end of the day, she's a person. And like, we have so many things to relate on." Um, and then I was like, "I'm just chatting." Like, these are good, introspective, deep questions that like, some you can think about it, like, "Oh, she's trying to grill me," but I think it's like, she's just trying to see who you are deep down, right? Um, yeah. So, then it ended up being one of maybe my best interview, like, ever.

That's awesome. What wasn't Harvard though? It's funny you say that. No, it's all right. I'll give a name. I'm just kidding with you. Our interviews are cool.

What do you think? One of the things partially that I used to do, Ali may not remember this, but I was asked by Dr. Lynn, who was just wonderful with undergraduate students at the school. I used to do a one-hour presentation that was titled, "How to Get Into the Post-Doc Program of Your Choice." Oh, wow. So, the first year I did it, it was it was very positively. I even had how many paragraphs on a thank you note. The second year, we even had people come up from New Haven, came up from Yale. Wow. And they did one extra year. And I thought it was really, really important. And one of the things I thought, especially on a post-doc application, but even on an undergraduate, try to know something about the school before you go in for the interview. Try to try to get somebody who's actually a student there. Try to get the ability to speak with them, especially on the endo thing. And I, I hate to be out of touch on this, but I'm assuming endo is still not in the match, right?

No, it's not. No, it's not. Okay. It's the only one that's not in the match. So, it really helps if you're applying to a post-doc program, speak to the residents. And they say, "Well, you know, uh, we we do a fair amount of surgery, but we don't do any retreatments. They all become implants." That's kind of a thing that for you being interviewed, you can broach that subject. And most people who are interviewing are going to be very impressed. And what they're impressed about is not even necessarily what your statement was or what it means, but it's that you prepared enough to make the effort to investigate the school. It's like, I had some people come and they would have a whole portfolio of gorgeous root canal cases, and they said, "This is, this is what I did." That means nothing to me. I don't know whether your brother, the endodontist in, you know, uh, Missouri, did it. I have no idea. But what it would have impressed me was that the student made such an effort to put together such a portfolio. And so, I think there is a, there's a method to the madness of getting prepared for an interview, trying to know as much as you can about that school. Uh, if it's a post-doc program, about the specifics of the program. And I think again, what the key thing is, the person interviewing you, 90% of the time will be impressed just that you've made the effort. And the one thing that always amazed me is Ali and Parsa were there two weeks ago when I was talking about the lack of grace in our culture, and I talked about team culture. The, the hockey team is the best culture I can think about how you build a culture. But I like team efforts. I, I like, there's no "I" in team, you know that's an old saying. Um, so, I, I really think that if the interview is interviewing you, and you made this effort to know all this stuff about the school, um, I think that's seen in a very, very positive manner.

Totally. I think just as important is asking questions at the end, and not the questions where you're like, "The person is, you could find this on the website" type of questions. It's asking questions to show that not only do you now know about the school, but what else are you eager to know? You know, what, what else have you not found out that you're still interested about? That one can kind of tell about you and your interest, but also two, what you're looking for. And just demonstrating that, you know, this is the school you want to go to. And treating every interview like, "This is the school I want to go to." And everyone deserves that respect, regardless, right? Because it's the same with your patients. Every patient deserves, "You're the patient I'm seeing, and I'm going to be present today."

How many schools did you guys apply to dental schools? Each applied to like seven or eight? Or did you have like a crazy number?

I, I think I was nervous because I just wasn't doing a gap year, and I found dentistry kind of late. I found it the summer after my sophomore year, and I applied the junior, or the summer after my junior year. So, one year of dedicated dental prep. The rest of it was pre-health, just kind of knew in general what I wanted. So, I applied very broadly. I think I applied to 20 dental schools.

Yeah, that's that's a good idea. I mean, it's highly competitive nowadays, to be honest with you. So, I think the more chances you have, you want to be the one selecting and choosing. Why not, right? I mean, what's, what's the reason not to? It's not like it's a, you know, exorbitant kind of um, price for applications or any of these other issues. Might as well apply to as many places. But I want to actually quickly talk about because, you know, the interview thing to me is really crucial. It's very important because, you know, all of us, so actually for, as a little bit, I got to do a waiver because I am on the admission committee at the endo program at our school. So, I'm not speaking on behalf of the school. I'm just sharing my own ideas. You know, you have to have these waivers and so on. So, that whatever I say or share is just my own opinion. Doesn't represent our school medicine. So, with that said, I mean, in essence, you're looking at in an interview, you know, when you have somebody in an application, you know, our acceptance in our program is somewhere between, you know, 1 to 5%. So, there's a broad range of people that apply. And, you know, it's all by comparison, right? So, the question really becomes, and everybody even has like, they have good grades, and everybody's done a bunch of different things, and obviously they've chosen to have good recommendation letters. So, everybody's good. They, there's that, those are the tangibles that you kind of read and see. But the intangibles are, as you said, is like, who is going to fit the culture of the program better? Who is going to add value? Who's going to be an asset to the program? And these are the kinds of things that you get from an interview because you, I mean, even though, to be honest with you, it's fairly short, and you really can't get, everybody could be on their best behavior. And that's why I usually recommend people to really be genuine and to be authentic and to really be themselves. So, when they say, "What should I do on my interview?" I said, "To be yourself." But here's some of the big tips: is to, as you said, to lean forward, to be energetic, to not just kind of shy into yourself and just kind of forget about, you know, how wonderful you are. Just kind of put

It out there and show the kind of energy that you have and what you're going to bring to the program. It is, as Annie said, it's a it's a teamwork thing. We're looking for people that are going to be into uh a system together. So, those are really important things. I think Annie wants to say something.

I There's something that's so important here. Most people when you go for an interview think that the person interviewing you is staying up nights looking at your CV. Oh yeah. Nothing could be further from the truth. What happens like somebody will be in a school and there's a person who's like from some school they and they're due for interviews. It's like listen John do you have any free time? Can you do an interview for me? So the John the interviewer he's given you a folder. He knows nothing about you. Okay. And I think that's the one thing that a lot of people going for interviews just don't understand. They think, "Oh my god, the person interviewing me is going over every little thing two nights before." No chance. Why am I saying this? You have to say yourself. You have to sell yourself in a way that is uh you know, it's it's professional, but also don't be afraid to share your enthusiasm. So if you're an NCAA finalist in tennis or karate or whatever, bring that also into the conversation. Don't cut yourself short in your accomplishments. You're there. So whether that interview is 15 minutes or stretches to a half an hour, you've got to sell yourself. And I think most of the people certainly applying to the HSDM and pen, they have a lot of things that they've accomplished. Don't be hesitant about sharing, don't ever assume that the person interviewing you has read it and knows that about you in your past.

Yeah, that's a great that's a great thing. Having a little elevator pitch at the beginning and then moving on to the questions and so on. Um, so you know, you know, we see a lot of people anxious to be honest with you. Like we should ask him cuz he his interview I remember he kind of blew everybody away on the admission committee. He was like amazing. I was like, "Oh my god, this guy, you know, so so why don't you share how did you prepare for your interview?"

Yeah, I think I think on the subject of the interview because I think there's a few aspects that we will cover that we haven't. But the interview is important because like you said, you get in the door and you know that you've met some level of requirements. You know, we're talking about a high level GPA. You probably are a smart, ambitious person. You've maybe done research. You are you are a good fit so far. Now it's about how do you mesh with the faculty? I think the first thing you have to think about is everything you do on interview day matters and everyone sees everything. So that's important, right? I remember on my interview day for uh for Endo, uh we had somebody no one here knows that person, but we had somebody whose attitude was so so so bad and everybody picked up on it. The interviewers picked up on it, the interviewees picked up on it, the I'm pretty sure the staff picked up on it. I mean it was it was hard to not sense the um problematic attitude. So the the advice is you know be nice, be fun, be outgoing, be energetic on the day of the interview. You know we there are people who are shy or introverted. Totally understand it. Everybody's different but do your best to to bring yourself to connect with the people you're talking with because like you said Dr. NASA were you guys and and the people in the selection committee are they're thinking about how to fit these pieces of the puzzle together so that there's a team aspect right so this person may be a future pulp biology researcher this person may be a future uh biomeaterials researcher this person may be an AI researcher this person may be an entrepreneur how do we create the team with the best value valuation that we can have moving forward so put yourself in a position to succeed I think on interview day playing the the part matters, right? Dressing well, acting professionally, making an effort to read about the people who are interviewing you. It's a big I think it's under undervalued like knowing the background of all the people we're interviewing. I remember doing the same thing. Um, and also making sure that the places you're going to interview, you have a genuine interest in going. I mean, there are some people who take interviews and have no interest in going there. At that point, you're taking away a spot from somebody else. So, playing the part matters. And and last but not least is knowing where you're going to give value is important. So you're not going to be just another resident in the equation that's going to come out and be a cog in the machine. But this is how you're going to actually impact the ecosystem of Harvard for example for 10 20 30 40 years and why somebody like Dr. Cotch, like Dr. Nas is willing to take a bet on you so that you can do that. I think interview day is huge to be honest.

Oh yeah, absolutely. It's the most important part of the whole process in my opinion. Something else that I want to say is like I think that um you don't know who is in the room with you. Like when you're at the front desk checking in, you don't know if someone you know like you they're a complete stranger to you, but you have no idea who they are or if they're observing you. So it matters how you treat people who you think offer no value to you. Like for example, front desk, security guard, custodial staff, like be kind to everyone. But that shouldn't even just be like on interview day. That should be your everyday. But I think be cognizant of that when you're um like just how you present yourself in every room.

Yeah. And a small point to to your point Dr. Kosh earlier because I think it's really important that the person sitting in front of you really doesn't always know and usually doesn't know anything about you. And I always tell people that I think there's a really there's a strong skill in taking the interview and navigating it navigating it where you want it to go. So someone could ask you a question. You could respond, okay, I've touched on my community service. Amazing. Next question comes in and you kind of want to start to feel those questions in the way where you're able to get that fully comprehensive picture of yourself. You're not just hammering the same thing over and over and not getting them to see all sides of yourself. So, also playing it in the way where not forcing it necessarily, but being cognizant of what you want them to know about you and not just in the tell me about yourself question, but in the overall grand scheme of the interview. What do I want them to know about me? Who am I? And how can I get that across today in the limited time that you have? Like you were saying, it's not that long. Like guiding the conversation. Exactly.

Yeah. What do you guys look for um from your perspective when you're interviewing people? What do you think are the hallmarks of a successful interview?

Well, for me, I can tell you my whole thing and I I everybody has different things, but I'm I think I'm a pretty observant individual and I do also like to talk. So, I I'm very comfortable with with you know speaking and the communication but my big thing is looking for honesty and I had an applicant one time I was applying. So, I said how many how many root canals have you done in your dental career? Person could have said six, seven, person said two and they both were only central in sizes. I really couldn't care less how many root canals that person had done because I'm going to show you how to do root canals in the program. But what I wanted more than anything else, I wanted somebody who was honest. Okay? Because if you if you're not honest, it doesn't work. All right? And so for me, finding out, and this is kind of what I think Heidi you were talking about, kinding find that that inner that inner glow in a person like are you going to be shading things? Is everything going to be shaded or is he going to be out front and honest? And this young person, I mean, I understand the stress I put them under asking, "How many root canals have you done? What's what do I say? Do I say I've done seven teeth and two bowlers?" No. He's just said, "I only did two both central and sizes." Could not have given me a better answer because honestly, I don't care how many you did. I'm going to show you how to do this. I care most importantly about honesty. That's me.

I mean, it goes back to what we were talking about the intangibles right I mean honestly it's clearly one of those things but more it goes back to the idea of this person is going to set the culture of the program is going to be a part of the program in our case for three years some of the residents do four years with the DMSSC um in many of the other programs around the country it's two years is still a lot of time that you're going to be spending with the program director with the faculty part-time and full-time and the other students and if you don't have the right mix and you don't have the right it just takes away from the morale And if you have good leadership in the program, you try to always set forth a positive, you know, let's we're all here to learn together kind of an attitude. And that cannot be it goes back I mean Annie's point about you know it's it's almost a cliche thing of there's no eye in team but it is really an important point of everyone working together to achieve something. So for me having that growth mindset, having the curiosity, the kind of you know obviously compassion and all that stuff is important. That just goes without saying but you know critical thinking, curiosity, creativity and then the courage of going out there and making mistakes and recovering from them from these mistakes. These are all critical things that I try to look at. Of course again like I said in a short time period you can't really tell because you're just seeing someone for a little quick um thing but you know some things stand out. So having at that eusive kind of positive energy of um wanting to belong and being open to learning and being open to be criticized in a positive uh uh way and recover from that and that's great and I think you know um I'm I'm sure all programs out there are really terrific. We're really lucky to have amazing uh residents such as Para and the rest of our residents. We're really um happy. Everyone everyone's really great and I'm sure it's the same way. I mean by the time people get to a postoc program they've already been through you know eight years of education and they've done really well in their program so they've you know um it's a long process so people are now matured up to be a a professional really and hopefully by the time they get out from the other side they are.

But that's actually a good point Annie. So what do you I mean the positive things you mentioned, you know, I I'm here to teach you how to do root canals. And I think that's one of the strengths of our programs that because we're three years, I say, you know, people apply from dental school straight instead of doing an AGD cuz experience is important what we want, but having a three-year program, that's an advantage. What What else do you look for in a resident that you think is um is good? I mean the three-year program I think is great because people everybody who leaves is really I mean I'm going to be very honest and people can you know hate me for this but when I was running a program I was looking for an engine okay um it's Harvard and I was looking for the engine now if you have people who maybe don't have the same engine but they have some other experience that's kind of an easier group to handle right there's a more maturity and I understand there's there's many endodonic postal programs that will not take somebody directly from undergraduate dental school. They like to have somebody in a service. I had a GPR stuff like that. To me, I was looking for like uh the biggest engines I could find and that made my life very challenging like 80 hours a week at the school because you had I had guys like like we created a night session for Do you mean energy-wise, Dr. Cotch? Do are you talking about energy? What are you talking about when you say engine? When you are looking for an engine, what does that mean?

about I'm talking about smarts. Yeah. How's that? Okay. There you go. That see that's she's looking for smarts. No. No. Here's here's the reason I say that is that what happens is Ali could talk about his some of his classmates. These are people who are very smart. Uh they were type A personalities very driven like hello and that makes it more challenging for a director. Okay. Uh it's really interesting like Dr. I say every week he was doing a different technique and he would say to me like I can occasionally tell me what you're doing like running the program just to help me out here bud. Um, but what I was looking for, that was my challenge. And so if I wasn't able to stimulate them enough, that's on me. But I wanted to make sure that for me, I had people the more I could give them, the more I could ask them to do. And you know that whole expression about to those to whom a lot is given, a lot is expected. Something like that paraphrasing. I 1,000% believe that. Okay. And so I also thought and this is I'm going to be particular with the institution. This was a place where people could be really stimulated and the person uh sitting in front of you parsley he actually took courses over at the college and that kind of thing. Uh it's a wonderful university and all dental schools within really good universities. I want people who have the energy, have the wherewithal, have the confidence, have the smarts to not just go to here and meet all the requirements. I'm not looking to create someone who's going to one step a preolar in 40 minutes or 20 minutes. I'm looking and I was looking to have graduates to produce graduates that would change the specialty. Okay, there's a big difference. Oh, wow. It's great Dr. Cotch. I got one step of preol in 20 minutes. I'm not impressed. Okay. But if I'm able to succeed enough that I can create graduates that can change dentistry, it can change the specialties. And I don't care which way, whether it's clinical techniques, whether it's management techniques, whether it's investment techniques, it doesn't matter to me. But I want people who are going to be exceptional. That's what I look for.

So I I think what Annie is saying is is is amazing. And I think I want to also say this because I want to add to this in that over the past few years I've had the privilege of also being able to go to a lot of residency programs around the country. And I must say really Annie and you've said the same thing too that the the residents and the students out there in all of these programs are amazing. I mean I think I'm we're all really blessed to have amazing set of endodonists and the residents that are going to graduate and be excellent clinicians and excellent and compassionate dentists and I think that and endodonist and I think that's really amazing. uh thing but another thing for you as a dental student applying to endo now as we're talking about that uh since you're in that phase people have done the dental school application and now you want to do uh the posttock program is you really need to see which program is the proper match for you and you don't always know that every program is good and people make decisions based on various you know uh factors for some people it could be ease of being close to a location that you may want to live in it could be financial reasons. It could be a number of different things. Um, one of the factors that is often times not um, paid enough attention to which I think is critical which I can kind of go back into my own personal experience is the kind of leadership you have in that program and what is again the culture of the program right like I can see myself if I hadn't come to our program and hadn't been under uh Annie as my program director uh I could the kind of person I was you know my wings could have been clipped very quickly by a program director who wanted to have control. Right. Right. Somebody who wanted to kind of make sure that everything is done exactly the way they want to have it done and they were very much averse to creativity thinking outside the box or somebody who who wanted to do different things. So that's very important because the reason Annie is my mentor way after my graduation is just because I did appreciate that's you know that that allowing me to reach whatever potential little it has been uh due to the fact that she had that foresight and that is important. So to the extent where you want to make a decision as to which program you want to go to you need to also keep a kind of account of what is it that you want to do afterwards. If you just want to do, as Annie say, just want to be doing like one stepping just, you know, root canals, then you probably want to go to a place that's just going to be just pure the clinical and you're just going to learn how to do root canals the least expensive way and and and move on. But if you want to do other things, you want to have a broader experience, then it's important to kind of know that about the program you want to go to because there is a variety. And as I mentioned, all of the programs out there that I have been to, and I've been to many of them, UCSF and to um uh min so many of them, I don't want to name individual ones, the there's not been a single one that I have not been impressed by. Right. And Annie, you probably say that. So, it's important to do your research on the program from all of these different aspects as well.

Did you want to say something, Annie? No, I'm just saying I I mean, all the programs are good. Are they different? Very much they're different. And again, when I was talking about boards, I mean, I realize there's a lot of programs that are not board oriented, but for me, I was. And I realized people throw darts, but that didn't matter to me because I was looking to create a program that I would produce people who would change the specialty. And that's what I was looking for. and and also just to the the questions we're asking here are how do we better prepare people to get into dental school to get into endo residency and then thrive in the uh specialty to stay on that theme I think one of the things from my perspective that's really important is first of all coachability um because you know there are definitely programs out there that tend to look for people with you know seven years of practicing experience at that point I don't know how coachable you are but certain programs lean into the fact we you know, you you're not ready to do an apico tomorrow, but we're we'll get you there and we'll give you the the whole nine yards about how to, you know, prepare yourself for that. That's one thing. The second thing is, you know, I think the the fit of the, you know, during the interview process, you get to to understand your fit um with the people there, right? So, if the the like you said, Dr. N, if the attendings there and the faculty there just don't mesh with you, it's not going to be good experience for anybody. And that's likely where the decisions come from. If somebody is a fit for the program, they're likely going to be the ones accepted. The the the part for me that is applicable to dental school and to endo residency is I think you have to show that you're um to me somebody who has more interest than just like I said before being a cog in the system. If I'm selecting people, I want to make to to bring an asset to this program that's going to stay. So to to advise people who are looking let's say to get into endo residency I think being unique is important like people say that all the time and certain schools have that reputation but what makes you different than just everybody else. I mean everybody else has a 4.0 or something like that. Why are you different? And so I I believe that when you think about shaping your application you think about where you're going to go. You have to look at what your career vision looks like. So you know when I applied I looked at what does my day-to-day look like? And that was a question. what is your what is your dream? How does your week look 10 years from now? And I answered the question. I had a clear idea, but it meshed with the people I was talking to. So, they were mentors and they were guiding me towards that. So, as people are applying towards dental school, first of all, do you see yourself practicing 5 days a week? Do you see yourself uh dealing with not you know a lot of headaches from pra owning a practice or dealing with problematic patients or tough cases first of all? And do you see yourself from an endo perspective? Do you have the patience to do endo? I I don't I don't know. I I don't know if I do. I mean, hopefully I do, but you know, it's just so sometimes it makes you wonder um you know, what OS is like because things are so in and out. I don't know. So, I think patience is my final piece of advice is I think if you want to go into endidonics, you either have to be willing to develop patience or you better be, you know, a hell of a patient person. I think for sure.

It's funny. uh patients often times say, "Well, wow, I can't believe you just, you know, sat there for this all this time and you concentrate on this one point for so long because it's just it seems to be kind of foreign." And that could that would be a good actually transition maybe move into this question that I've always had since you know you guys this generation coming into dental school, preparing to get into dental school and now for you know studying in dental school. seems to me and Annie you probably agree with me on this is that as our overall culture is changing to this culture of kind of a online fast attention span kind of short attention span um you know uh just an attention economy if you will right is it do you find that it's more difficult for your generation to sit down and study in long time periods because I remember I used to study like you know like many hours in a But it seems that even now I can't just sit there and and read something for too long. So how has how has that translated into the tangible experience of studying for dental school and then in dental school um among yourselves? I mean, you can you guys are obviously very bright so you probably have figured out a way to do it but what has been your observation of your peers and other people uh on this regard?

Yeah, I think that like our generation does talk a lot about shorter attention spans like um you know like you can't walk in for you know two hours but I feel like people have found ways to make it work for themselves. Like I think well one more people are getting diagnosed with ADHD. It's more of a of a topic of conversation. But then you also hear people who may not actually have ADHD say that they have ADHD because they have a trait that is like you know on the spectrum of it. Um, and I think that you see more people jumping from task to task, which is very beneficial because they'll be studying and then there's like, oh no, I have to send this email and they get that done. They don't put it off. They might be jumping from task to task more. So there could be like less deep work, but then for um like our peers, I think that when the pressure is on and when it really counts, they will they will focus. the way that I've gone about that. Um, so when I was studying for the DAT, um, so I graduated college in three years, um, in my sophomore year, um, spring semester was my DAT, the semester where I studied for the DAT, and I had a full course load. Um, and then the, um, women's varsity tennis coach had asked me to walk on. So that and that she h she asked me that, um, winter break. And so then I was like, okay. Okay. Well, I told her straight up like my career is my number one priority and so I would love to play for you, but I can't commit, you know, the however like 20 30 hours a week, but I would love to play, but I don't want to make any false promises. And she was like, "That's fine. So, just come whenever you can." So, I was like, "Okay, if I'm going to juggle everything, then something has to go. um I want to, you know, give my 100% in all of these things and I want to maximize my time, be very efficient. And so I deleted all of my social media, like got off um Tik Tok, Snap, Tik Tok end of freshman year, Snapchat beginning of sophomore year, and then got off Instagram um sophomore spring, and I've been off of all of those ever since. Freed up eight hours a week. I never knew I had so much focus. Wow. Right. So it's I've been on a dopamine detox for like over like like three and a half years now. You don't have it anymore? No, you're kidding. I still don't have it. You deleted it 3 years ago and you still don't have it. I still don't have it. Wow, that's actually really good. Yeah. So then that's been my way and I think that that has been has it's made me very intentional in all other aspects of my life, right? Cuz my thinking then was the the pro is that I you know have more focus, have less distraction, have more time. And the con is that like, you know, if someone graduates, gets some just some exciting thing that they're posting on social media, I'll miss it and then I won't know. How would I know if it's someone that I don't keep in touch with? But then I was like, if it's someone that cares about me or that I care about, I'll hear it from them. And if I don't hear it from them, then like it's just not like that. So it's fine. You know, that's fair. It will one it could like if I'm thinking about them, I'll text them and then it'll make that happen. Or it just was never meant to be like that and that's fine. Like you can't be best friends with everyone. that's fine. Um, and so then I think like applying that more broadly has made me more intentional and has helped me a lot with like you know balancing um everything that we do now.

Yeah, I think that's really fair. I think I have a well maybe a little bit of a different way of going about it and this is this is kind of ties into what I think about even AI entering our space and the way it's entered even our learning space so far. I think that like you said, you know, people are no longer sitting down and reading textbooks for hours on end. One, because studies have shown that's not the most effective way to study. Like active recall is like proven to be a better way for some most people, I would say. So slowly people are starting to learn how to use this technology. And I think it's very similar to dentistry is if you don't learn how to use it, it's going to take over and it's going to make things much harder for you. And so if you're able to use those online resources to help your studying, make it more efficient, you have more time to do those other things you might not have always had time to do. And so I think you have to be more intentional about the way that you're using technology, social media, AI, because if you do it and you do it in a way that's pushing you forward, you can accomplish so much more than we once could have 5 10 years ago before I had that ability. Now I'm talking to Tat GBT on my walk to school. Hey, let's talk about this patient. walk me through it. And I'm going back and forth verbally. I'm going on no notebook LM. I'm importing my textbook chapter. I'm having it generate a 30 minute back and forth podcast because I love to listen. I love to watch. I'm ingesting that as I'm doing my laundry, as I'm doing my dishes. I'm finding ways to do my studies, as I'm doing other things in my day-to-day. It's also opening up more free time to see my friends, go to the gym, and do other things that matter to me. And so, I think that not that it's about being smart, like you were saying, Dr. But it's about finding people who I think also make the most of what's going on and are forward thinking in what's around them and how to propel themselves forward using that and not being stuck in time.

Oh, we got to get that going to be do a show on productivity master class on efficiency. That was amazing. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, uh, Dr. Cotch, it would be interesting to hear your perspective. I mean, from a generational angle. Uh but do you think the question I have for you is you know sometimes when you show some of these let let's just take AI as an example because it's the I think the pathway to being super efficient if when you learn about some of these things that are accessible to us like um some of these AI tools and platforms do you feel like it would have uh you know do you feel that you would be in a different place in your career than you are now if you had had those tools or do you think the output would have been the same I always wondered that because you're very productive, you're very efficient. Now imagine having the power of AI behind you. What do you think happens there?

There's there's a positive aspect to it and there's a negative aspect that I think relying on AI and there's so many people this is you know it's like in Chattam Cape Cod in the summer now. Uh where I am is very famous hotel called the Chattam Bars in I live on Chattam Bars Avenue used to be kind of bluehead grandmothers. Now it's influences and and everyone's so busy doing this. Oh gosh. They don't even watch the traffic. It's a little bit challenging for older people living in the area. Um, but I the one thing here that's interesting. I said it the other night. Every generation is bigger, brighter, smarter, and faster. You see that and you have seen that for decades in athletics. And ladies, I mentioned when I was in high school, there was a British runner, Roger Bannister, who broke the four-minute mile. It was like, "Oh my god, this must be an alien. Who can run that fast?" Now high school kids are blowing that away. It's the same in all all your different sports. So, you have to break it down. I I think one of the things is what makes this generation the greatest generation that's come along is the access to information. I completely 1,000% get that. But the one thing that people cannot do is you cannot depend on that for everything. For instance, in the world of continuing education, ladies, uh Dr. NASA and I very much strongly believe in hands-on courses because if you're doing andidonics, I want you to think about this. This is the only specialty where you literally cannot see what you're doing. Yeah. Right. Even with a microscope, you can straighten it out. You can see the apex. But if it's an, you know, an acute angle, uh, good luck. You're not going to be able to see it. So having that ability to do it hands-on in person is a big deal. Furthermore, I don't care what you think about the sim labs taking a blade, taking a 15 blade and going through soft tissue down to the perryioium down to the bone. There's a feel to that and you can ask Dr. Nasi. He is beyond being a superb, you know, surgeon. So, I think there is a place for having that manual dexterity, that manual experience, chalk carving, Annie, is that is that what we're talking about? Paid off. And then also where getting back to your question para um one of the things for many many years in dentistry there was very few options. I used to have kind of a joke a saying dentistry was like a prison sentence 25 years to life right and people would work 25 years to life other than academic other than schools there are very few non-clinical jobs out there that's changed I think significantly over the last 15 years also for me it got to the point um ladies I had done pros for 14 years and then I had done endo and it was like as I said earlier I think endo is a wonderful specialty because It allows you to do other things with your life. Yes. All right. Whatever at that other part of your life may be. So for me um not relying on a computer or not relying on my phone for so much stuff. It gave me I think the ability to think and this is a terrible expression but out of the box it made gave me the ability to create. Okay. And so I found myself at a point where well all right uh I've kind of got lot of experience here clinically. I got a lot of experience business-wise. What do I do now? Well, if you really went through a flowchart, the the answer was obviously you had to create your own company because nobody had what I wanted to do. So, I had to create my own company and I created it on Alaska Cruises out of Vancouver, Canada. That's how I started Real World Dendo. So the point of the matter is para getting back to your point. If I was able and I was a little bit more reliant on getting information telling me what to do well go back get another specialty you know, make your practice three and a half days a week hire two more assistants. I personally don't think with myself I would ever would have been able to think outside of that value and think circumferentially and create what I created. Right. Right.

Well, all right. So, as we're kind of coming to uh close uh on the podcast here, coming to the end, let's just kind of sum up through a series of quick lightning round questions, if you will, right? So, why don't you go ahead and uh and guide us on this front. So, we'll start with this big question. How do people get into dental school?

Yeah. I think one is you need to know your why. Think big picture in terms of like what what are your big goals and what impact do you want to have for your whole life? and then let that be your intention for all the things that you do. Um, that's personal to everyone and so that will make you unique like no two people will have the same vision or the same passions. Um, and then for applying that there are certain things that will like you know they they show skills that will scale to a career in dentistry. Um, so for high school college students looking to get into dentistry um research is a very big thing. Um, it shows consistency, it shows intellectual curiosity, the ability to produce like make your own contribution to the field. Yeah. Leadership is also great um because it shows initiative, the ability to communicate, the ability to gather a team together um and you know mobilize a group of people towards one goal. Um, and so it's like I think there are certain things that you can do like you know uh sports is another thing these um activities speak about you in ways so it's like actions speak louder than words and you don't have to tell someone who you are what you do will just show those things. So these are very applicable ways to apply that.

I think that's huge. It's demonstrating the the skills and the type of person that we talked about who succeeds later as a dentist. And to answer the big scary question of you post a video how to get into I got into Harvard dental school, the first comment is always stats. And to my answer to that is look at the range on the internet. If you fall within the range, you have a good shot. Even if you don't, you still might have a shot. And I don't want anyone to think that the numbers are what's going to define them in this process. But I still want everyone to aim as high as they possibly can to demonstrate some of those qualities like we were all talking about. And that is, you know, that degree of intellectual competence that is a small part but a decent part of becoming a strong dentist. And so that comes off in your GPA which can compensate for a low DAT score or your DAT score which can compensate for a low GPA. And regardless of that, not to let those define you because I think what you said still is just as important as those.

Yeah, those are all important points for to be happy in what you do. But you're right also in the sense that look, there has to be an equalizer because there's multiple people applying. There's always a competition. So you're getting a uh a bunch of applications has to be kind of weeded out. So the academic component part of it is definitely an important part of it. But there is it's a multiffactorial uh issue as to who makes a good dentist. It's not just you can't just be books smart at the end of the day. Everything you learn has to get applied through your hands and your care and your compassion onto a human being. So there is a translation all that academic stuff that goes beyond what you study and that's part of your personality and also a part of your overall culture. And that's the kinds of stuff that you know you look for in a residence when you're trying to or a dental student when you're going through your interview and things like that. So all of these factors are important. You know it's it's again it's it's it's a multiffactorial problem and there's no one item that's that is most important at the end of the day. you know the whether you're a dental student you have to be able for four years to withstand the rigorous process of being through the school but at the same time you have to have the cooperative attitude not just purely competitive attitude to get along with your classmates add value so that your faculty people around you the staff around you your patients everybody can benefit from it so it's a it's just no one answer as you guys have all mentioned to uh you need to have the right package to be in the healthcare business to begin Right. It's it's a it's a care component part of it. Um, what about what do you want to add to that?

I think to answer the question of how to get into endo residency, I think I I have three things to say. Network, network, network. And the reason I say that is because it's your path to exploring what's out there. If you're a dental student and you don't know if you want to be an oral surgeon, antidodonist, a periodon, orthodontist, or GP, you have to talk to different people to understand what your future looks like. So when you do that, you find out what you like and let's say it's endo. You get to understand what you need to do to succeed. If I'm talking to endidonis and I'm learning about the business of endodonics from an academic research and innovation perspective, I have a vision of what I need to do to be successful and an asset. So that's number one. And one of the aims on our podcast is to be as honest as possible. Browen said it, Heidi, you said it. You have to have, you know, a certain level of academic caliber. And you know the re the reason for that is because these things are competitive. There's upside to doing certain specialties in certain instances. And so that's how the you know sometimes the wheat are is separated from the chaff. You need to be able to continue that from the day one of dental school all the way to to the last day. And in the cases that your past fail, you need to show how you're different. And so whether you're you're graded or not graded, your mission is to show that you're going to be an active leader in this community. And I think the only way to do that is to get connected with people, learn from all the people who have a lot more wisdom and experience from you. And that will lead to a lot of great opportunities. And last but not least, I think we talked about how important interview day is. If you get the chance to knock your applications out of the park, spend time and effort to know the programs. If you get to interview day, you have to come 110% prepared, knowing the program, and knowing the faculty. That's my advice for how to get into endo residency.

Absolutely. Love that. I agree. I agree with that, Paula. 10,000% as I mentioned earlier. So your network network is is absolutely sagacious advice. It's really smart and that's one of the things I looked for with my applicants. I wanted to see if they made the effort, if they had the energy, if they had the desire to learn about the program before I interviewed them. So when I would interview an applicant, as I mentioned earlier, I would try to find out kind of the honesty quotient. uh there's ways I can ask questions and you know the worst thing they could do is try to think what's the answer I'm looking for. I wasn't looking so much specifically for an answer. I was looking for the delivery and I would be able to figure out what that was going to be. Also, here's another thing that's gone on this way for I've been in dentistry for more than 50 years. It's was the same thing 50 years ago. Too many people show up for interviews and they try to be very cool or very a little bit chill, you know, like you know that kind of thing. Enthusiasm goes a long way. I've also had people and what you have to remember as I said earlier, whether you're the first person invited for the interview or the last person invited for the interview, you have to realize many people interviewing you don't know that much about you, it is your job to sell yourself to that interviewer why they should accept you. I had people who came from very incredibly incredibly wealthy families from certain parts of the world and they would three minutes in they would talk about their father was worth billions of dollars. Fabulous. I'm so pleased but what are you going to bring to the program? I don't really care about your father or your mother. What are you going to bring to the program? So again I think parsley uh you're right on the mark with network network know about the post-doal program. That impresses me that you've had the energy, you made the effort to know about my program. So that right away gives me great feelings about you and that you would be an asset. Terrific. And combining that with honesty means that you found the right match for your u you know for your future and the right program goes back to what you were saying is you know finding your why and making sure that you're matched to the right program. Not just going through the motions and say the right things so that you could end up in a program that may not be the right match for you. it's not going to help you advance along your long-term goals. One of the things that I used to do which I don't think anybody else did which is kind of unique. I used to also um people this is even the same owl with real world endo with different speakers. I would use the Japanese principle of wah and what w means in Japanese is harmony. So you know when you have all your prospective applicants who you're going to invite for an interview you know which one you want to have the most who's number one. Once I got that person to commit, I'm thinking, who's going to be number two? Who's going to be able to work with number one? Once I had the number two committed, then they had two. Who's going to be number three? Which one of these people is going to work the best? And uh that worked out very very well for me. In fact, one time I had the medical school people ask me, how come I what did I do picking this one class because all three of them are attached. Two of them are still attached. So for me, that harmony thing you can translate into a team effort. Uh, it's everybody working for the same goals and I think that makes it for a program director a little bit easier but far more satisfying when everybody buys into the program.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Cooperative attitude. That's what it's all about. Well, terrific. I think this was great and I'm sure many college students that are interested in dentistry and dental students that might be interested in or any other specialty could benefit from some of these u great uh tips and and tricks that you guys share which is genuine and still based on honesty but can hopefully help people achieve their goals and dentistry is a wonderful profession. So for those interested in potentially dentistry, Annie, I would I think that it's it's a tremendous uh future. If you think about it, if AI is going to change things, uh any of the fields of medicine, including surgeries and and dentistry, uh that require hands are probably going to be affected last, right? So if you're if you're only thinking, you are very likely going to have a challenge. But if you're working with your hands and this is probably one of those fields in which you're going to be using your hands, you're going to have a great advantage until robotics comes along and then at that point I think all of us have to we're out of luck. Everyone is Annie, what were we going to say? He has something for the women because I think um I mentioned this earlier between medicine and dentistry I think the three best specialties on the medical side it's derm and radiology and on the dental side it's endidonics. Why? Because women, most women unlike men have a life, right? Family commitments, other commitments. And so you don't have to work five days chained to a chair to be very sated with your education, very pleased with what you're doing with life, and also financially doing well. So I think as especially is terrific, but I think it's especially well suited to women. Terrific. With that, great wisdom here. We're gonna end the podcast. Thank you, Heidi and for joining us today and hopefully we'll have you guys back again for doing some Yeah, go activities. Terrific. Awesome. We'd love to. Absolutely. We'll see you guys in the next video. Right. All right. Awesome. That was great. like no other hearts we tune into where stories unfold.