I Asked God to Let Me See in the Spirit. He Said Yes. - #133 Chris Lucas

Also, the side of like seeing demons, they kind of look like a lot of them look like little gargoyles, right? Like on the old churches and all the stuff. I see a lot of those. I see a lot of those perched up in places. If I kind of walk into a room or uh like a restaurant that maybe doesn't have a good vibe. A lot of times I see them on top of alcohol bottles um at the top overlooking the restaurant. That's super common. So that's one of them, too. I I got tons of examples so you're going to have to narrow me out.

>> Come on with it, man. This is really interesting. I want to know what people see when they see in the spirit. What percentage is demonic versus angelic? What if your dreams weren't just dreams, but glimpses into the future? Since childhood, Chris Lucas has had vivid dreams nearly every night. and many of them have come true, often as warnings of what's ahead. But then he asked God to show him what's happening in the spiritual realm while fully awake. And God said yes. Today, Chris shares not only the prophetic dreams he's received, but what it's actually like to see in the spirit and how we can better recognize and steward the spiritual gifts God gives his children. Please meet Chris Lucas. You submitted a video a couple of months ago like our guests do. It's a process that we have really come to um enjoy. We love watching people speak about the way they've experienced the presence of God. And you did that right away in your video though. You said that you have a prophetic gift among other gifts and that you also have the gift of discerning spirits which is commonly known as seeing in the spirits. And we can get into the variations of the gift of discerning spirits. But one of those and one of the most fascinating to a lot of believers is the gift of seeing in the spirit.

>> Yeah.

>> And we've had a few people on, not many, but a few people with that gift.

>> Mhm.

>> And it's pretty it's pretty interesting.

>> I would say. So, yeah, I would definitely say that. Well, because not everybody has that gift and people are >> curious about that and have a lot of questions and I'm going to try to ask some of those questions about that. >> But from a prophetic gift and seeing in the spirit to start, give me examples of what you mean by that.

>> Yeah, good question. So, for me, I've had a full color vivid dreams five nights a week since I was 5 years old. So for me a big catalyst in how communication has come from God is through dreams, right? Through dreams was a big one. And then um really I saw that God was speaking to me through these dreams and I was like okay if if this is capable and able to happen in dreams like I would like for this to be uh the same in in normal life, right? Because the dream world is kind of weird speculation around it of like is it happening is it not happening you feel like it's real but is it is it not so I really wanted um just as much clarity from God as possible and I thought a good way of asking for that is like if I can see that stuff in the day then people there would be a little less people would be maybe more open to it like getting prophetic word of like there's no way you could have known that situation So that was really kind of the catalyst on why I started asking for that gift.

>> So you asked for the gift of seeing in the spirit based on what you were experiencing in your dream life.

>> Yeah, exactly. So tell me about these dreams.

>> Yeah, so I got a few of them that are kind of they're pretty crazy. The first one that I remember um I was about 12 or 13 years old. my it was set up in an airport and what ended up happening is uh this guy ends up going crazy on the on the airplane. He starts attacking people. He starts uh ripping people out of their seats.

>> In your dream.

>> In the dream. Yeah. In the dream. And he's just going berserk. And so, um my dad was with me and we were like, "Hey, we got to get off this plane." And then that was kind of the cut of the dream. It was probably 15 to 30 seconds, I would say. And it was just the thing I could remember from the dream though was him specifically. There was like to this day I got goosebumps cuz I'll never forget his face. I'll never forget what he was wearing. And uh it was really one of those things. It was like that was the highlight. He was the highlight and then his actions were like, "Hey, let's be aware of this." So cut forward about 6 months. Um, we were on a flight and I ended up we uh come out of this is in real life. I come out of the terminal on one side, gate on this side, he's on gate on the other side and uh literally it's the same exact gentleman wearing the same exact clothes and him and I just made eye contact and I ripped my dad's arm and I said, "Hey, we got to go." And he just said, "Okay, great. Let's leave." So, um it's one of those things where I never would have known like what would have gone forward from that cuz we just got out of the situation, but um it was a very clear like, hey, this is, you know, this is something to be aware of.

>> Is that the only one you've had?

>> No, I've had lots. So, another one I was on a cruise ship with in my dream. I was on a cruise ship with this woman and uh she was somebody that we had known and uh she ends up um we're running around the cruise ship and then we end up getting followed by a group of group of guys and then um ends up we make it back to the room on the cruise ship and then these guys are trying to break into the room and they're trying to get her. They're yelling her name like, "Hey, get over here." All that kind of stuff, attacking her essentially. So, um, I ended up actually in the dream opening the door. I got tricked, right? Like the story like the whole Adam and Eve like we would never fall for that. Like some people believe kind of thing. Like I literally got tricked in the dream that I remember the guy being the same height as me. I'm like in my dream I'm like, "Oh, I think I could take him in a fight if it opened up." Like it was this like weird ego fight in this dream. I opened the door. They all started bumrushing her and attacking her. Right? So, what ends up happening after I woke up from that dream, it was like two in the morning and I just heard that voice of God saying, "You need to call her and tell her." I said, "I don't want to do that." He's like, "I really need you to call and tell her." Cuz it's kind of a crazy thing like, "Hey, I had this dream last night. We were not really that close, but he's like, "I really need you to tell her." So, I ended up kind of getting that bravery. um sent a text like, "Hey, can we get on the phone? I had this situation. I need to tell you about this dream." Um, we talked for about an hour and she ends up saying that um she was going to go on a date and so she uh like sent the website of the gentleman that she was going to go on the date with and he was the main uh the main bad guy in the dream. Literally same clothes, same everything. And I just told her like, "Hey, I'm you can believe me or not, but that's the gentleman I saw." Um, and I would really recommend you don't do that.

>> Wow.

>> Mhm.

>> So, when did that happen?

>> Probably three or four years ago.

>> Three or four years ago.

>> Yeah. Not that long ago.

>> Okay. So you say you get since you were five years old, >> you have gotten these ultra vivid dreams like almost every night.

>> Yeah.

>> And you've had clearly some dreams that have been prophetic in nature. In other words, they have foreshadowed or for you foreseen things that would happen in the future.

>> Yeah.

>> That actually Yeah. same place, same time, same person, like the whole shebang.

>> You saw people's faces.

>> You saw the guy's face that she was going to go on a date with. You had no knowledge of this. She sends you the link and it's like, "Yeah, that's the guy."

>> Mhm.

>> Um, yeah. So, so then the question is, I mean, prophetic dreams, we have people who have prophetic gifts that will I've had that happen where they will reach out to me.

>> Yeah.

>> Because they have had a dream and it's, you know, it gets you on alert, I guess.

>> Yeah.

>> It's kind of what it does for me.

>> What What is it about dreams? Do you have non-prophetic dreams? Do you have just regular dreams?

>> Yeah. So, literally, and the funny thing is like five nights a week since I was five. But that also doesn't account for having like two, three, four, five dreams a night. So, literally, I have such a big like data pool of dreams. Like, that's kind of what I joke about where I I've built I think really good discernment with God on this is from God. This is kind of an enemy attack. this is just like, you know, like a feel-good dream or it could be prophetic. So, since I've had so many, that gives me such a big data set of like, hey, you know, kind of fitting just in motifs and themes from there.

>> So, how do you how do you navigate that? Do you sort of reconcile each of those in the morning when you get up? It's like, okay, here's Cuz I'll wake up and I'll remember a dream.

>> Yeah.

>> For a little bit.

>> Yeah. and maybe a couple days later it's like, "Oh, yeah. I remember that." But then it's gone, right? I can't give you I can I have one or two dreams that I can recall right now.

>> Yeah.

>> And it was Well, Jesus was the only one I saw him in one that I could recount right now. And it was because I wrote it down, I think.

>> Yeah. That makes a big difference.

>> That that day. It was so it was so profound to me. So, I've had one So, how do you how do you categorize these things? How and and how are you coming to understand uh how to deal with what you're experiencing?

>> Yeah, that's a good question. At the start, I really just kind of accepted like this is life. Like this is what it is. Like cuz you go to Dr. Google and you're like, well, you got this thing wrong with you. You got this thing wrong with you. Whatever it could be, right? And I was like, well, that doesn't feel right. Right. I don't know exactly, you know, what that is. So, I for a big portion of my life, I just kind of accepted that was a thing. Like I would wake up like, oh yeah, Chris had a nightmare last night or Chris had a great dream last night. And just move on with my day. And then probably into my early 20s, maybe probably 19 to 21, I really started to think there has to be a reason for this, right? There has to be some kind of reason that there's so much so consistently and I just picture somebody knocking at the door all the time, right? Like, hey, like, are you going to handle this? Like, are you going to do it? I've texted you a hundred times. Like, are you going to manage this? Um, so at that point I started really working into like the whole Freudian like analyzing psychoanalyzing all the dreams and like well this could symbolize this and this is you know if you see you just all that crazy stuff right like I see a bear and I associate bears with protection or like a mama bear with protection and then you're kind of going down that rabbit hole. There's never really any clarity behind it cuz you're like well I would associate it this way but somebody else would associate it that way and then like I would start googling what does a you know what does a bear mean in a dream like that's a super simple example and just like just kind of go from there and then I still didn't really have any peace about that and that was a good two or three year period where I was literally I'm like jotting down dreams every night uh cuz one of the mentor I had. She was like, "You just need to write them all down and then you can start working from there." And I'm like, "Man, I just still don't feel any peace about it." And she was really big into that psychoanalyzing the dreams. And then there has to be symbolization, right? Symbolization in between the the the thing in the dream and then what that means in your outside life. And uh that's where I did that for a few years and didn't really find any peace about that. Um, but I did notice that there was reoccurring like concepts in the dreams like, yeah, this bear would show up, the bear would protect me from the bad guys or um, whatever it may be from those kinds of things. So, that's kind of where then I just turned to God and I just like I went on this uh, 7w week um, journey essentially. Literally every night of the week would have two plus dreams for 7 weeks and finally I just broke down and I was like, "God, I just can't try to figure this out anymore. I can't do psychoanalyze. I can't write them down anymore. I really just need you to tell me what this means and what to do with this and uh and really just help me because I was just at my breaking point at that point."

>> Did he?

>> Absolutely. Yeah.

>> So, yeah. dreams. I've not dug into this. I I I dream.

>> Yeah.

>> But I dream when I'm tired.

>> Yeah.

>> Really tired.

>> If I want to get a good night's sleep, >> I'll I'll try to do a run or a workout in the afternoon.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and then get a good shower in and and try to get to bed a little early. And there's a there are things that I can do to help ensure that I get a better night's rest. Um, I did that last night. So, it's feel really good. Be ready.

>> Yeah, I'm on my toes.

>> But, uh, but anyway, and and in those nights, I'll find myself when I'm in a in a deeper state of sleep, when I'm I'm really getting rest, that I'll have dreams. But most nights, >> you're just plugging along.

>> Yeah, I don't. And I wish I did, but I don't. And okay, that's fine. And when you think about what dreams are, and I would love to have a psychologist or a researcher that comes in and puts some definition around, and maybe you can do that because you've done some of this research, but >> you know, you just think dreams are sort of a way for your brain to process.

>> Yeah.

>> Some of the things you're experiencing mentally and emotionally in your life, right? you know, thinking, okay, I've done something that's offended some people, and so I feel like they are more in a posture of attacking me, and so I have a dream about being attacked in some way. And so you just you you feel like that's a way that your brain sort of takes out the trash, so to speak, or or processes your experiences.

>> And I don't know that that's not the case for a lot of dreams, right?

>> Yeah. I think that's a really good like it's it's like it's almost a full truth, you know what I mean? Like you're really that's where I got to and I was like I'm really close. I feel like I'm on the verge. I'm like because there would be stressful things I would be I would have a stressful day at work and I would be like a chase stream, right? And there are even different types of chase streams. I'm being chased and I can see the person. I'm being chased. I don't know where the person is. And then you can kind of associate out from there. Um, and then you're you're just so close you're like, "Yeah, I think I have it figured out." And then, uh, like for me, like a wrench would get thrown in it and you're like, "Well, I've never seen that before." Right? So, I think the a lot of people make the argument that your your psyche is trying to give you higher knowledge as well, right? Your subconscious is trying to filter in some knowledge that maybe you're not able to process. And that's that was the turning point for me because God was God was just like, why wouldn't I just give you the knowledge, right? If we're gonna what's the point of playing middleman and you trying to not put idolatry on it, right? Not put idolatry on the dreams, but why don't you just come to me? And so I felt like it was like this consistent uh like him knocking at the door like are you going to ask me about it or not? Right? And then that fear paralysis, right, of like, well, I think I can figure it out. And so I was really stubborn about that. And I got saved later. Um, there was a big portion of this part of my life where I wasn't saved. So I can see the miracles God was working that I didn't know it was God as in Jesus. But um, yeah, you that that whole psychoanalyzing portion or higher knowledge from your subconscious was really the last point I ended up at.

>> Yeah. think about dreams and it's this processing uh mechanism so to speak. But you know that you think okay well if there are things that we needed to deal with spiritually if there's unforgiveness someplace or >> you know if there is a you know demonic oppression or an unclean spirit somewhere in there.

>> Yeah.

>> That this God can use dreams to reveal that and and things that you can take action on. All of those things are it's like okay those are things that already exist with you and this is your brain helping to illuminate them. In other words, this would be a natural process. This isn't a thing that requires uh that would qualify as supernatural. This is a a natural >> uh sort of chemical process going on inside the brain to process things whether it's something that you need to do or deal with or um whatever like that. But where that breaks down a little bit for me is when you see things in your dreams that you have not experienced.

>> Mhm.

>> And then in the future you experience them but not from like a self-fulfilling prophecy thing.

>> Right.

>> So you had to dream about a guy with a blue shirt, right?

>> Blue shirt, brown pants, brown k or brown khakis and brown shoes.

>> And brown shoes with a very distinct face.

>> Mhm. You ever seen this man before?

>> Never seen him.

>> Okay. So you some six months later.

>> Mhm.

>> In an airport.

>> In the whole the whole thing. Yeah.

>> It your dream comes true, comes to life.

>> So there's nothing that I can create in my mind that says, well, here's how that would happen naturally, >> right? That's got that's just like for for the non-believer in the spiritual that's like really lucky. I mean >> statistically you're pretty on point with that. Yeah.

>> That's pretty awesome.

>> What an incredible coincidence that you could dream about a guy with khaki pants, brown shoes, a blue shirt, and a very distinct face and then see someone who looks exactly like that six months later in the exact scene. So, so that tells me as I just try to work through this in my mind, which is not a very vast place sometimes. I understand that is that there is a reality that is higher.

>> Yeah.

>> Than us.

>> Okay. And as we gain experience in this world from our lifetime of exploring things that make sense scientifically.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Things that are in the natural and psychoanalyzing and all the things that we can do, the techniques that we can do to reveal what's happening in the natural world. This breaks that.

>> Yeah. And as we become aware or come to recognize that there is a realm that's far higher than us in operation around us, then it opens up the possibility. That's Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. It's It's kind of like that. Would you believe me if like if I was able Say I wasn't lying, right? Say that really did happen. say that was an experience that I had or somebody had because lots of people have these experiences. People just get a little nervy like because then the next step is are you willing to send the text to the person, right? Like when you receive those texts, you're like, are they like what do we really got going on? Then you have to use your free will to discern, okay, are they telling the truth? Maybe they're kind of having inaccurate information. Do I trust this person? So, say it was true. Are you open to the fact that there may be more to it? And we we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, right? Like that's something that people kind of goes over people's head of they're like, I think the spirit's out there or I think it's interacting in my dreams or I think I saw a shadow in the corner, but are you willing to explore that more and go for it?

>> Yeah. And when I think about so I think of other phenomena that move into this realm. So I think of near-death experiences specifically >> related to uh people who have outof body experiences during these times where they >> either code sometimes they have out-of- body experiences without being in a in a death situation but then sort of that they're called veritical out-of- body experiences. In other words, they saw something somewhere that was not something they could have gathered with their natural senses where their body was. So, rooms away or some distance away that they couldn't have pieced together through sound and sight and >> you know smell whatever it might be and did it prove out.

>> Yeah. It's actually true.

>> To be accurate.

>> Yeah. Which is very strong evidence that the conscience uh or the conscious continues to exist apart from the body and even apart from >> clinical life.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's like whoa.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> So if we want some evidence that that it's not just lights out when we die or that our conscience or our conscious I keep getting those words mixed up. um exists after death or that there is a spiritual reality.

>> In operation.

>> Yeah.

>> Above us around and above us, >> right?

>> If you want to have conversation and debate around that that is there's increasing evidence uh for the spiritual realm. Yeah.

>> So now you are dealing with this. You're like, "All right, >> this is this is beyond just a bunch of incredible coincidences.

>> There is there's there's intelligence behind this. There's communication behind this. There is a there's an ability to see things.

>> Yeah.

>> That are true.

>> That are not just fantasy, >> right?

>> Before they occur. Yeah. When you when you take time out the window, right, you're seeing or people are having experiences of like deja vu, right? You're like, man, I swear I've been here before, right? Or like those kinds of experiences. When you bring time out the window, you're in a whole another category because now we're we're negating we're negating basic principles of like the physical, right? Once we're outside of time and you have experiences outside of time, you're like, "Okay, well, now we're in a whole new ballpark." So, you're starting to have these things and you're beginning to >> explore these and I love that you're doing research and not just um >> yeah, I like testing these things. I like to to try to understand that's what we do here. A lot of people don't like the fact that we ask >> right >> the questions of the critical thinker and the skeptic. And I'm like, we're going to always ask those questions because if you don't test things and you don't put things through things that have been through fire are stronger. And so we try to do that to whatever degree we have the capacity to do it here. And this is a real interesting topic that I'm probably not fully prepared to >> put through the fire. But when when you tell me that you've had dreams of things that occurred in the future, I mean that directly aligns with scriptural prophetic >> words. And um >> yeah, that's really cool. So how do you and you say you have dreams that are not prophetic also just normal dreams. How do you distinguish between a prophetic and a non-prof or just a regular dream?

>> Uh, so dream discion is really something that I started to really develop and not develop but like really start looking at because I'm like okay I'm having so many dreams over such a long period of time. I really need to dial in kind of motifs. I need to dial in feelings afterwards. Um, right. We we worship the Prince of Peace, right? So, a lot of people are like, "Yeah, I had this experience and when I woke up, I was," you can have experiences where you're like, "Wow, that was really intense." But do you have peace after the message, right? Like when you leave church and heard a great message, right? You're like, "Wow, like I feel peaceful." Right? So really building in discernion over um these dreams is something that I really had to start doing because otherwise I was just going to go crazy. I felt like I was at this breaking point where I'm like I may go postal.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I just for having so many over such a long period of time. So >> people do.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They really do. And that's where um giving people like I want to help show people kind of some criteria to say, "Hey, these are because there's there's a wide variety for people that do have dreams, right? We have a gentleman that I work with. He didn't have a dream until he was 45 years old. Not a single one. And then the first one he had was a nightmare, right? So he's brand new into dreaming. And then he's like, "Wow, uh that was a scary dream." Right? And so there are basic tactics in the dreams that people um a lot of there's a lot of similarity uh between people's dreams and it's can you look at the tactics can you look at the motifs and the feelings and then trying to discern from there yeah that was maybe an enemy attack maybe that was sometimes I have dreams where like I have a dog that passed not too long ago and I got to hang out with him in a dream for 15 minutes like that was an amazing dream So some it's not just bad and scary. There's also good on the other side of it too.

>> So what's the test for you to say this was a prophetic dream? Is it what you do with it after you wake up?

>> Is it um directing you in some way? How do you say, "Okay, this one I'm putting in the bucket of a prophetic dream versus one that's just like, uh, that was just >> me being very tired and right, >> taking out the trash, so to speak."

>> Yeah. The first thing I really do is >> the immediate feeling, like I was saying, after the dream, right? A lot of people have dreams that are really intense, like I'm being chased, like the people are so close, like or they capture you, right? Like there are dreams where that happens. But then how do you feel after say 10 minutes have gone by? How do you feel about it? Do you see that there's a message inside of it or was it just kind of was it a dream that's supposed to stir you up for the day? Right? Because I know that's a tactic uh that is used on me of let's get a bad dream. Let's stir them up for the day. Kind of get them off mission and then try to um you know see how long we can keep them distracted. So, first thing I always do is I just pray. I'm like, "God, was this something from you?" Right? Clearly tell me, was this a dream that was given to you or was given to me from you? A lot of times you'll get an answer right away if you've built a level of relationship with God of like, yeah, uh, no, that wasn't for me.

>> How so? I mean, just in your spirit.

>> Yeah. Just in that peace feeling, right, in your stomach. That peace that you feel in your stomach. And then another big part of it is urgency, right? So, for the dream, for the woman, she was going on a date that night, right? And that's why I needed to text her and that's why I needed to start to uh get that process going cuz she had that date set. So, I just felt that like knocking that urge like you need to start and you need to go ahead and uh start that process. So, and then silence goes misquote never goes misqued, right? So if you're unsure, you can take a little bit of time if you don't feel this pressure or not pressure but you don't feel this clear communication of hey the voice I know of God right my sheep know my voice right and then if it's not something like that first dream I was explaining there was a six-month window in between that right so um time is important your feeling afterwards is important and then um the urgency behind and the dream as well.

>> I know you're still early probably. I mean, you're a young guy in your experience with dreams, even though they've been going on since you were five and you you've you've done a lot of exploratory research and trying to understand these and now that you've understand the spiritual nature of them and and categorizing them and and and learning how to respond.

>> Yeah.

>> To different ones. We were talking about earlier how science believes that or feels that this is a chemical process of of of processing events that occur in your life or situations uh or your emotions or or your your you know mental capacity that sort of thing or or mental health. and uh just a way of most everything the body does is done to sort of protect itself and to strengthen itself in some way. But now that you've sort of looked at the spiritual side of things and have come to recognize a lot of spirituality in these dreams, what percentage of dreams would you say is spiritual in nature?

>> Good question. It's so in the spiritual in nature there's kind of two buckets like you were saying that I put them in right is it does it feel tormentful that's the that's the adjective that I use most times right did you wake up and you did you feel like tormented from that dream okay some there's a lot of dreams that I have like and now that I can see in the spirit which I'd love to talk about eventually now that I can see in the spirit I can actually see the things tormenting. That wasn't the case all the way up until literally 6 months ago.

>> So, is it tormentful? Is it peaceful?

>> Okay. And really the spiritual driven then you have the prophetic we need to God saying I need you to get this message to somebody. That's a very small percentage.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Like the Bible isn't fil I think about uh like the the prophets in the Bible, right? They have their, you know, they were prophetic in the Bible however many times, right? But that's not they also Apostle Paul or uh um David was hiding for four years, right? So there's portions where people think it's every moment of every day. And it's kind of like that quote like what makes a superhero a superhero? It's like the 1% of time, right? That's kind of what it's like because it's really taking these experiences and and then really putting them through the ringer for myself of like cuz I never want to like Stacy, I had this dream, this crazy thing happened. You may this may be a situation and then my discernment was wrong.

>> Think about the >> the kind of pressure that would like put on a relationship in general, right? That's that's not a small thing, right? So in general the like this breaking time mold of dreams it's a very small percentage but that that.1% may have saved that woman from a really terrible experience right and so it's just being open and that's the way I think about just being open God if there's something you need me to tell your people I will right.

>> Yeah, well, and I think about that and it probably ties to a broader question. When we're not close to God, when we are consumed with the things of this world and its work and its activities and its family and its all the things, right? And and and we're not carving out time for God. We're not >> close to him.

>> Mhm.

>> We kind of look around. It's like, where is God?

>> Yeah.

>> It's like, I don't see him anywhere.

>> Right.

>> Right. And and it's not that God's not there. It's just that our eyes are focused on the things that are directly in front of us. Mhm.

>> People who are uh have been in pursuit of God for a long time in prayer a couple hours every day.

>> Mhm.

>> Speak with him, talk with him all the time.

>> You would ask them that same question. He's like, "What are you talking about?"

>> Yeah.

>> He's everywhere all the time. I experience him all the time.

>> So, person A, nothing is spiritual, >> right?

>> Person B, >> everything is spiritual. My eyes are open to the spiritual life because I am in it.

>> Yeah.

>> And so you think about dreams, it's okay. No, it's just a process by where you clean your brain. It's like, okay, at what point do you immerse yourself into the spiritual side of this to say, you know what, even the throwaway dreams >> have spiritual relevance. None of it is none of it is to be discarded. Yeah. You know, all of it to some degree we should be paying attention to because >> it's a constant spiritual battle and everything is spiritual to some degree.

>> And I think spiritual people would say I think there's a middle ground in there somewhere that says, "Hey, no, there's not a demon under every rock, >> but they're probably under more rocks than you think." So, I'm asking you that question about dreams. Do you feel like if you get to, you know, somewhere later in life and you're you're going to say, you know what, there's a good chance that every one of those dreams had some sort of spiritual route or would you say, um, I know the ones that are spiritual and some of them are just your brain taken out the trash at night?

>> Yeah, that's a good question because uh I think so if we're going to classify dreams into spiritled, it's about okay, what side of the spirit is it, right? And then and then seeing the tactics behind it, right? And so like for example, um like people that have chase streams where people are chasing after them. Um, this is kind of a crazy crazy story, but so I had a chase stream. I would consistently get chased. I would be chased essentially, right? And so psychoanalization told me you're being chased because you're running from something, right? Well, that's Yeah, that may be true, right? Like you're saying, people, especially people in the spirit, they do sometimes believe there literally is a demon under every pillow. And for me, I think a big portion of that is how much has God removed the veil? And then as your as your skill set develops, you can you can discern that a little bit better um of like, hey, the veil's gone a little bit. I or I don't see anything. Right? So, going back to the dream. So, I'm getting chased and this thing chasing me is like this 7 foot tall all white like snaggly teeth like what people would assume a demon looks like, right? If like Lord of the Rings like orc looking kind of thing, right? And so uh God I hear the audible voice of God in my dream and he says uh turn around and walk back towards the dream towards the demon. So, in a lot of my dreams, I'm really lucid, right? It's not like they are happening to me, but as I've grown spiritually, I get a lot more lucid or, you know, semi-lucid dreams. And so, I'm like, so I keep running for another 15, 20 seconds, right? And the the demon thing is still chasing me. And God says, "Turn around and face it." So, in my dream, like I physically remember, it's like I stood up like out of bed almost like I turned around. I started walking back towards the demon and then my face and the demon's face were this far apart and it's screaming at me. It's got snaggly teeth. It's kind of spitting all over me. And he said, "Put a cross on the demon's head." So I put like literally remember boom boom put a cross on the demon's head and it just like just almost melted into like like just a pile of goo and the message. So then God's like, "The more you play into the fear, the more control they're going to have." So then he was speaking from the the demon's perspective, right? They want to rile you up. They want to get you scared. They want to get your, you know, your heart rate going. And the more you play into that, the more um the the more tormentful they can be. So that was an experience of I had that after lots of praying like God like just give me the skill and ability to manage these dreams and then that dream happened.

>> Did you grow up as a person of faith?

>> No. Like really so my story was I got saved in 2020. Um, before that I was I kind of felt like something was out there. I was 12 years old. I asked to go to a Buddhist temple. I'm like, "Mom, take me to the Buddhist temple." Because I felt like there was more to it, but I didn't know what it was. So, um, my whole family saved. Now, we end up getting saved. I got saved in 2020. And then, um, from there, I ended up getting baptized about 3 or 4 months after that. And then that's when stuff started to really kick off. I had a supernatural encounter with Christ uh, July 2023. And from that moment forward, um, it's just been lights out. Like, this is what I'm dedicating my whole life to. Like, I'm just so just love him so much.

>> So, you had this gift before you had relationship with Christ.

>> Yeah. I didn't even know it was him.

>> So, God gave you something without you knowing him.

>> Yeah. So I want to tell I want to tell this story because it was one of the most pivotable pivotal points in my life. So there was a point where my now wife and I we were together at the start and uh there was this moment I was living across the country. I was really missing my family and I was just didn't really know kind of what to do next in life, right? My coaching career was going great, but I didn't really know what to do kind of in in the rest of life, right? I was excelling in one point, but everything else was really empty. And uh this is before I knew Jesus. And uh I was praying and my wife is like, "Well, are we are we done?" Right? Like I hadn't been talking to her a whole lot. I was just kind of disconnecting from everything cuz I'm a disconnector. And uh I'm sitting there and I'll never forget I was sitting there at my computer and I just hear I didn't know it was God. I didn't know it was Jesus. I just hear this voice. tell her you're never leaving her. And um like I didn't know it was him. And it was literally the best like best thing that's ever happened in my wife in my life. I got two kids now. She's the best thing that's ever happened to me. I didn't even know it was him. So I like couldn't even imagine.

>> What is your understanding of that?

>> It I I really thought before that it was a manifestation kind of thing that there was just kind of some spirit some something more to it that was um kind of leading and guiding. I was like well if God did exist I would think he would want the best for what he created so he's helping. Um, so that was my understanding at that point. Was the dream gift or talent or whatever the world might call it um the catalyst for your pursuit and search for the truth of God or did he pull you in another way? Uh, there was that was a big portion that led me to the point of something existed. Um, but that didn't pull me to the point of Jesus. Um, there was a gentleman that um really showed me the truth and he was he was the the main reason of like it was a that makes sense moment and there's there's no other there's no other argument to that. I heard him talk about Adam and Eve from a different perspective kind of for the first time and uh like something I could understand better. Not a different just something I could understand better and I was like wow that's really that's it.

>> Well, so you grew up in the United States.

>> I did.

>> It's it's a challenge in most places in the world to not have heard or know about Christianity.

>> Yeah.

>> And and and God in general. Um, so these things seem to happen in your 20s, right? So there had to have been something even through your formative years and teen years that caused you to evaluate Christianity specifically and and even the existence of God and not necessarily embrace that. What was your what was your thing that was sticking in your side that that prevented you from Christ?

>> The thing that was sticking in my side was really um the thought that it had to be through Jesus. Um, I didn't have a good understanding of atonement. Um, so that made no sense to me. I thought about all the people around the world that may never hear. And these are things that I just didn't know the answers to. They people like well people that are in you know uh third world countries that may never know um and then really the concept of hell really I was like there's no way because I thought God was all love he is all loving but I thought he was all love I think about for my daughter um like would I be willing to discipline her right that was that was the idea I didn't think that would be possible or that a god would do that right and discipline and interesting work. But that's kind of the idea. So those were the main hiccups that I had that I was like that just doesn't like those really are throwing me off.

>> Those are big obstacles for people. So how did you how did you get to the other side of that?

>> Yeah. Really it was an idea of what am I going to buy into? Right. So when I had Adam and nobody explained Adam and Eve to me um like it would just wasn't something that came up right. So um the way he the gentleman explained Adam and Eve is okay. So say you are gifted this beautiful car for your 18th birthday. You're adult. The title's in your name. It's all yours. And there's a guy that comes up to you and I'm a very business-oriented person, right? And he comes up to you says, "Hey, Chris, I just need $10,000 15 for an investment and then you can be a part of my business." I'd be like, "Man, I'm 18. I'm broke. I have no money." And then the gentleman says, "Well, I see that Corvette over there. Isn't that yours?" I'm like, "My parents just got that for me." He said, "Well, you could transfer the title to me. I'll take that as your investment and then we go along and um just you can be a

"part of the investment." So at this point, I have free will to choose right. And that's where I didn't understand Adam and Eve's story that well, because I didn't understand, really, they did. They had a choice, right? So when this opportunity for this business investment comes through, I can choose, "No, I'm going to hold on to that Corvette." That sounds kind of slimy. Or, "Let's give him the Corvette." So, say I do, I transfer the title in his name. I say, "Here you go, Mr. Gentleman," and then it's his. Is there anything that anybody can do in the legal system to get it back? It's gone, right? I had dominion. I chose to make that choice, and now that's the outcome of my choice, right?

So when it was explained to me like that, I was like, "Wow, I really thought back to all the times that I've made poor choices. I'm like, I can really relate to that. That makes a lot of sense to me." And that was the tipping point, because I'm like, "Okay, if that can be true, everything else can be true, right?"

Yeah, that's good. So, you've been given this gift, this dreams gift as a kid, and you've even had some really seeing into the future type dreams that you haven't been able to really figure out the source of and what could be. But it's sent you on this search. And now you get into your 20s and you are awakened to the truth of Christ and you come to know him.

>> And now you're beginning to, sounds like, piecing together >> the fact that these are things from God to use in this world somehow. >> Mhm. And then you ask for what you see in the dream be something if if there is a spiritual world. >> Mhm. >> That I be able to see it in the world. >> Yep. >> Is that right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Because it really opened up the possibility because once we broke the mold of time, and because the dream directly translated, just for this specific example, into somebody's physical world, right? It directly translated into this woman's world where I was like, "Well, why wouldn't I be able to do that awake, right?" And if I saw how much this could or did help her, I'll never know the full outcome, right? But I saw how much that this situation saved her from that, 'cause I know in my heart, like, and I know what could have happened, right? And so then I'm like, "Well, I want to be able to do this if there's, if I see somebody on the street and they need, you know, prayer or they need, or something's happening, or if I meet somebody and I'm like, man, there's just something going on with you, I want to be able to help."

>> Yeah. You don't have time to go take a nap real quick. >> Let's just go to sleep real quick. >> Yeah. It's like, God, >> throw me some melatonin, I'll catch it. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Got a pocket full of Benadryl in the back or something like that. But, um, no. So, super interesting. You received a gift? Now, >> I'm kind of wondering if I were to ask you, do people have this gift of the prophetic and just not know it, or is it a rare gift? That's an interesting question. A lot of people propose that question of maybe they think, I'm not saying you are, but like, I want to know because I want it, or I want to know because I want to know how special you are. Um, really, the way I think about it is, like, we all have our gifts and callings of what we're supposed to do, right? And so I don't know the answer. I think a lot, I know there are a lot of people. There's a woman I know, and I know that she has the ability, um, but she, she won't buy in, right? And I know this woman specifically, I know what's, God's shown me kind of two paths for her. Um, I've ministered to her. I've said, "Hey, you know, this is, I would really, really, you know, um, I would really encourage you, sorry, I would really encourage you to take a look and really pursue this." But people don't, right? So, I think there's some iceberg stuff to it. And then I think that there's, it's hard. It's dedication to be in relationship with God, right? It's really easy to just live your life and have God as a side item, but it's really hard to really engage with God at the best level that you can. So, I think it's a mix of all three of those things.

>> It's interesting. It seems like people have the gift without having connection >> with God. >> Yeah. >> Uh, living a life, um, pursuing him, pursuing righteousness, that sort of thing. That was the case for you. I know people that have a strange ability >> Mhm. >> to know things or see things that they shouldn't be able to know or see >> that are far from God. >> Yeah. You would think, "Okay, you, this would be a gift that he would sort of bestow on people who are committed to building the kingdom, and he's going to use it as a tool to build the kingdom through them." Very well may still be the case for this person. But it makes me feel like, and even in your case, this is something that happened when you were a kid. >> It was like you were given this. >> This is an ability that you had >> very early on without any understanding of how to use it. >> Yeah. Or what the options were for it, or what it really was. >> You had it before you could, um, color it in and understand it, >> right? >> Which really is interesting to me. So, it doesn't sound like it's a thing that you asked for, but there's a gift that you didn't necessarily feel like you had the ability to see those things in the world >> that you had a desire for. You weren't just given this. >> Yeah. Until you asked for it. >> Yeah. >> So, do we, do we, are these gifts predestined and we have them already, or do we need to ask for them, or is it somewhere in between in your experience? As I become closer to God, my desires, I think, are becoming more of his desires. And I think there is a level of, certain people are meant to be on a stage talking in front of hundreds of thousands of people. Some people are meant to be building systems for companies in their cubicle, right? So, I do think that, you know, not everybody is meant to. What percentage of people in the Bible are prophets? Right? That's a great question. So, I think there is some level of both. But I think it comes down to, I'm not, I don't know the answer of, "Can I just, can I, God, can I be prophetic?" And if he would give that to you or not. Um, I think there's a lot of contingencies, um, with somebody's heart that come with being prophetic, right? Because, um, absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? I don't, there's some level of making sure people have the right hearts to do it, right? If you get insider information, what are you going to do with that information? Are you going to benefit, or are you going to hurt? Right? And God knows all of our hearts better than anybody else. So, I think that's a factor too. Um, you know, and I've noticed a lot of people are a little more sensitive that are prophetic, right? They're a little more empathic, they're a little more that kind of stuff. So, I think it's like you said, a really big mix in between. But people should really follow what you, like I think, like you said, we've been given a skill set by God, right? Some people can hop on the computer and do amazing. Some people fall apart on the computer. So, I think it's about following what your skill set is and being open to that being your role in the kingdom.

Yeah, 'cause I think we want gifts. >> I think we want gifts. >> I think we want gifts. And I want gifts. >> Can I attest to that of wanting the gifts? >> Yeah. >> So, when I, uh, first started, the first time I ever heard, I was listening to a sermon and he's like, "I see the angels." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Right? I was like, "I want to see the angels." And, uh, so for me, at the start, before I was really building my relationship with God, I was trying to use that as belief. "Hey, God, if you show me an angel, I'll believe more." Right? And all of this is in our hearts to some extent, right? That unbelief is hard, right? It's really hard. And people think more proof equals more belief. And I don't know if that's necessarily true either, right? There's something special about believing with the more you trust somebody, kind of the less information you need sometimes, right? If, if Rihanna, my wife and I are going out, my wife and I are going out and I say, "Hey, let's go to the store." "What store? What time? Why? Where?" Or is it, "Let's just go to the store, right?" Because there's a level of trust. So for me, I was using that as a bartering chip at the start before I got the gift of seeing, because I'm like, "God, just show me this and I'll believe." And, right, like this, the infinite God that created all of us, and that was the token. That was my, that was my hand. Those are the dice I was rolling. Um, so like looking now, obviously it's a little silly, but that's genuinely like, I'm like, "I just need, I just need a little more to believe, right?" So it's, uh, that's what that's what I was doing at this time.

>> I think a lot of people come from that position because they want more evidence that God is actually real >> to sort of cement their position. You know, people come on here and the first question I generally ask them, it wasn't the case for you. Um, "Tell me how you experience God." >> Yeah. >> Because we have everyday people on here who experience God. Clearly, you do as well. And they usually have a pretty compelling story of how they've experienced God, which reinforces people's faith in God. >> Yeah. >> It builds their faith. And so, >> we're called "Stronger Faith," and I didn't come up with that name originally. God gave us that name. And I didn't understand why because it didn't make sense to me at the time. Now, >> it's like that's what's going on. People are hearing >> about people experiencing God, and it's building a stronger faith in lots and lots of people, and people are coming to know God in new ways. But it's this evidential thing that we, we need evidence. We want, uh, it's the person that >> mocks us, you know, in social situations because, "I can't believe you're a, you know, primitive enough to believe in that, you know, superstitious nonsense from, you know, thousands of years ago. Still. It's 2025, get real, >> right?" >> It's like, uh, I want that person to experience God. I want to demonstrate evidence. And if I were to see angels and have a prophetic word for them, >> or or lay my hand on them and pray healing for their stage four cancer >> and it go away. How do you refute that? Right? And so we want that. >> And I also think about the Pharisees asking for a sign, and Jesus says, "This evil generation is not going to get a sign. >> Your sign's going to be the sign of Jonah." In other words, I'm going to raise from the dead in three days. Mhm. >> So, let that be your sign. >> Yeah. >> He said that, but I'm pretty sure some of those people watched this paralyzed guy that they lowered through the roof >> get healed right in front of their eyes. What do you mean, "Show me a sign?" What was that? >> Right. >> And so, >> a great number of people want to say, "There's just no evidence for God. They don't believe in God because there's really no evidence." >> Mhm. And and so we feel like something like this would be the evidence they need to then come to believe in God and know him for themselves. And I, I think about myself, you know, I ask for gifts. So I, I, I probably pause a little bit before asking for the gift of seeing in the spirit because the people I've talked to >> very wise >> say, "I asked for it too and got it, and then I asked for God to remove it from me because it is, uh, you see things you don't really, that are very uncomfortable, and you see the darker side of spirituality." >> Yes. >> More so even than some of the lighter side. And so it's not like you get to see all the angels around you. You get to see all the demons and their activity. >> And but I've asked for the gift of healing, >> my prayers being heard, and um, the prophetic as well. I don't hand-wring over these things. I'm not on my face begging God for those to happen. >> Uh, I just want my prayers to be heard and to have the faith that I feel like it God wants me to have to step out in faith and for people to experience him through things like a prophetic word or a healing. And there are people that have the gift of healing that go around and just boom, boom, boom, boom, do it. And I think about times about that. So I increasingly step out in faith and pray >> healing over people with laying on of hands. >> Most see no change. >> Most nothing happens. But there's been two or three times >> that it did happen, or either the person was just trying to make me feel better. Right. And so I doubt it's like, "Okay, they just trying to." And so that's my doubt creeping in. It's my analyzing things and that sort of thing. And I think there's a thing in me that needs to probably break as it relates to some of those things. But I've seen those things happen a few times. >> And it might just be God saying, "Okay, I want you to have this gift." But you're not going to go from being a newborn, uh, that later that day sitting around and eating a steak and potato, right? You're going to have to learn how to nurse at your mother's breast. And that's even going to be a little bit of a difficult, laborious process before you, you know, get your way into the familiarity and the faith enough to do things that you'd like to be able to do. Interested to know how we, what's in your experience, the secret sauce to receiving the spiritual gifts, whatever they may be. Yeah, at work, we say, uh, "If you have to convince somebody to get in, you have to convince them to stay in." And that happens, I think, a lot of times with people. Is, uh, we believe, "If I can show you this miracle, then you'll follow, you'll follow God with me." And I think to the context of, God already knows their heart. God already sees all of what's going to happen for that person. And it may be one of the people you touched that they did need that, right? And I always think back to these videos and they say, "Well, if Christianity was true, would you believe it?" >> Yeah. >> "Well, I don't know." Like, "Well, there's your answer, right?" So, it's, I don't think it necessarily comes down to us every single time because I know my heart is to save souls, right? And I want every soul saved, right? So it's not about, uh, for me, I want it to be done the perfect way, God's perfect way, so that when they do come, then it, then it's built on a strong foundation, right? I want the foundation for them when they enter their relationship with Christ to be full. And if it's a, well, this one, because think about the doubt that comes in from one experience, right? Like, "Could it be you? Well, does my knee feel better?" Right? Like, and then you're like, like you were literally just saying, they may have felt it, they may have not. Like that's the tactic of the enemy to bring in that unbelief, right? To separate us.

>> So for me personally, I trust now that I've seen more of God's plan inside me. Like, if he would have came to me, what, like I think about the story back to my wife. He saved that relationship without me knowing he existed in the proper context. But like, why didn't you know? Like, there could have been a million ways that happened. Well, it wasn't time for me yet, right? I don't know why that was the case. I don't know why that was the plan, but that's how it needed to happen. And now my foundation is so strong that I'm going to, I'm going to do everything my whole life to continue to do this, right? So that's the context for that. And then, um, for me and my journey of seeing, it's exactly what you explained. It started off as, like, I know the stuff is there. Like, you can see it at the corner of your eye, or you can just feel it, right? Sometimes you walk into your room and you're like, "Oh, I don't know about this place." Or you get, maybe you get goosebumps. Some people get goosebumps. Uh, some people feel a rush over them, like hot or cold. Um, like believing it took me to believe that was real before God gave me more of seeing, because I had to believe that was even a thing before God says, "Okay, I'm going to take off the veil." And your statement of, "Let's be slow to ask," because that's, that's wisdom, because maybe, um, it's too much for certain people, right? You, like we said earlier, certain people just break, right? And they just can't balance the life of normal life and seeing in the spirit. Is that person real? Is it not? Like, the veil can be moved so far for some people that it really is overwhelming.

Yeah, it's a great conversation around the spiritual gifts. Does God pre-ordain those and he's selected a few people to have these gifts, or are they, is each gift available to anyone who asks and has faith and their heart is pure to do kingdom work? I, I don't have the answers to those questions, and I mean, only God knows that. I, I think he's got good gifts for all of us. I don't necessarily think that we can determine which ones of those that we get. And, um, and would you be open to if it's a gift that you didn't ask for? >> Yeah. >> Right. Some people are like, "If I can't see, I'm not about it." Like, is it, are you genuinely open to what God has in store for you, or do you want to pigeonhole the contract and make it say, "No, it needs to say this, or I'm not doing it"? Right? That's, some people are just not at the point where they would be open to, uh, maybe it's a different gift that touches different people, and are people really open to that or not? >> Yeah. I mean, James is like, "Hey, you don't have because you don't ask." >> Yeah. >> And you don't receive because you want them for selfish purposes. Maybe there's some things that we should take away from that as it relates to those. And, and no, our faith should not hinge on whether or not we've got, um, a supernatural gift from God that we tap into as our reason that we believe that God is real and that we follow him, right? We, >> we know him and trust him. I think we could look over our lives and see his activity and his presence. Um, or we could choose to look over our lives and and and claim that that has not been the case. And I, I think we, we see what we want to. And, um, that was interestingly enough, we were talking about the dream that I had previously, and I'm not going to go into the details of it, but it had Jesus in it. >> Mhm. >> And then a lot of people moved, and he was gone. >> Mhm. >> But in that time that people moved, nobody had their eyes on him. And then we were like, "Where did he go?" And we looked for him again, and he was there. And he then said to me, "Only those with their eyes on me can see me." >> I'm like, "That's not true, right?" And it's like, "But isn't it true?" So, um, so do we need a sign? Do we need a gift? Do we need to be able to lay our hands on a child with stage four cancer and then they jump up cancer-free for the rest of their lives for us to believe? If so, I don't know if that's the way that works or not. And, um, so I don't know. I don't know what the secret sauce is on that. And other than just remaining faithful and let God give you the gifts that he's going to give you. And I would say also, if you want a gift from the Father, why not ask? Ask for a gift from the Father. Just keep your motives pure, right? I don't know, >> right? If, if my, if my daughter came up to me, she's young now, she's not, she's not at this point yet, but she says, "Hey, Dad, I'm really interested in, in this, whatever it may be. I'm really interested in, say, it's even picking a car. Hey, I want to pick this car, or I want to pick this car, or hey, Dad, can you take me to piano?" Like, I can be like, "I have the, God has the choice to be like, yeah, that would be a great decision for you, or this one may not be." Right? So that's where, um, my, like you're saying, just really asking and then seeing what happens from there. Building your relationship with him. Did you get a yes? Did you get a no? Did you get a maybe? Did you get a slow? Not a maybe. Did you get a slow? And then building from there with him. Um, or because think about all the times in your life you were maybe procrastinating, you weren't doing something, you weren't moving forward, you do one thing, and it all just lines up, right? Like it happens to everybody, right? So maybe it just takes you taking that one step in prayer of asking for something or asking for a gift, and that can line up what God wants or puts you, uh, down your destiny a little further.

>> Yeah, that's interesting too, because let's say we want one of these gifts. I think one of the things we probably don't do in that time, I think we're looking forward is like, "Hey, I'm looking forward to getting this gift. Why haven't I gotten it?" >> Mhm. I think one of the things that may be a healthy exercise that's scriptural is to look back and say, "Where has God given me the opportunity to use this gift in the past, and did I?" >> Yeah, that's great. >> "So, was I obedient? Was I faithful? Was I faithful over the little that he gave me?" He gave me a word from his scripture. He gave me a prompting or a conviction to go and, um, encourage someone, or pray over a homeless person, or do this thing. Was I faithful? Did someone cross my path, and there be this stirring to pray over them, and I didn't, because we were in the grocery store, and that's weird, >> nervous and uncomfortable, right? And and and did you feel a little, uh, conviction when you walked out of the store and you didn't do that thing? Scripture teaches us this in the parable of the talents. "He who is faithful over little >> will be given more." So, have you been faithful over what he's already given you? And when he gives it to you again, will you be faithful? And if we never, if we want the gift of healing and we don't go and step out in faith and do it, how will we ever get the gift? You're exactly right. And that scale can be, that scale can be so large of, "Did you even, you saw, uh, like repeated words of, like, what does that word even mean?" Right? Did you go to your Bible and did you look? Or like you're saying, did you pray for the gentleman? Like, so for example, I was in the store the other day, and even like, I was like, "I'm really nervous to pray for this guy, right?" He's looking through cold medicine in Walmart for his, uh, kids. I'm trying to find Tylenol for my daughter, and I was like, "Man, I just don't really want to do it." Right? That, like, in your gut, you're like, "Nope, pass." Right? And then God's like, "You need to do it." And so I was like, "I don't know." So I literally, I, I walked away, right? And then I literally, I made it 20 steps away. I U-turned. I went back to him. I said, "I could not like not that I couldn't live, but like there was something." So, but what happened? I gave him the option to opt in, right? And this is where a lot of people overlook, because it's free will on both sides. So for this example, "Hey, man, are your kids okay? I see you're looking through the Tylenol." He's like, "Yeah, they're fine." Um, and then I was like, "You know, maybe I could pray for him." He's like, "No, I'm okay." And they walked away, right? So, keeping in mind that is free will on both sides. But we have to be faithful. God knew he was going to say, had the option to say yes or no. God knew he was going to say no. God wanted him to say yes, but knew he was going to say no. He didn't tell me that the guy was going to say no because that was going to lead to, like, "Well, he's going to say no anyway, so I'm not going to do it." Right? It took my change, right, my U-turn to go back to. And then you feel a little silly. You're like, "Well, the guy said no anyway." Then your heart kind of hurts, right? Because you're like, "Man, I wish I could have just prayed for him and wish I could have just helped him." So, it's important that to know, keep in mind the free will, right? "Hey, I had a dream. Are you interested in hearing or not?" "No." "Okay. Well, sorry to hear that. Um, if you change your mind, let me know." Or, "Yes." And then you're faithful to what those next steps are, like you're saying.

>> Yeah. But every bit of that situation was a test of your obedience. >> Exactly. 100%. >> And God was going to do a work in him and whatever. >> Just the fact that somebody offered to pray may change the course. Who knows what God's going to do there? >> But it's not whether or not you got to pray and the prayer was effective. >> The What was going on there is, "I'm going to give Chris a thing to do." >> The test is, is he just going to do it in obedience to me whether he sees fruit or not? In fact, the guy rejected him. >> So, I'm going to give him something again. Is Chris going to allow that person's rejection to cause him to not be obedient to me in the future? I think he does that all the time. >> Every day. >> I had this incredible conviction some, uh, couple months ago to pray for this child with a rare cancer, and it's not a good situation. I don't know these people at all. Saw it on social media. I reached out to someone who knew them. I said, "I, I, I think I'm supposed to pray for this child with cancer." And they allowed me to go to their house and do this. I don't know these people at all. Never met them in my life. >> Wow. >> And it just was gnawing at me the whole day, and just it was like heavier and heavier and heavy. And I was like, "I don't, I don't want to give them false hope. I don't want to do all these. Is this going to hurt them if I, yeah, I, all these things. Are you going to look an idiot? Who is this guy? And why would they even?" And I did. And, um, I went and anointed this child and talked with him and on with him there in the bed, laying on of hands, >> commanding and praying healing, >> and he's not getting better. >> Yeah. >> But it, it was, it was okay, Stacy. You want the gift of healing? Go. So, the kid didn't get healed. Is that evidence that God's not real? Is that, is that what is that how I'm going to digest to that? >> Right. >> Or was it just God saying, "Huh? You did it. Good. Step one." Right. I don't know. >> Step one. Yeah. >> So, I had to be faithful for what he gave me. >> That's exactly right. >> It's not about my performance. It's not about where the kid, God's going to heal who he's going to heal. >> Mhm. >> I think my job is to be faithful. So, seeing in the spirit. Yeah. What do you see? It's a, it's a wide variety of, uh, of things. So, when I was, the starting point was kind of those shadows coming out of the corners, maybe. Um, some people, uh, see that a lot, or maybe they, like, you blink and then you're like, "Oh, there's something there," and then there's not. So, I think it's important to talk about seeing in the spirit, too. There's kind of, for me, there's three portions. Okay. So, there's like dreams and visions, like we've been talking about, right? That's definitely seeing in the spirit. There's stuff that's kind of floating around, right? Kind of like if you were on a computer, moving around, uh, like the mouse, like kind of floating around. And then there's stuff that's like, "Hey, I see that guy right there." Right? So, there's, there's a, it's not just one or the other. >> Pause for a second. >> Yeah. >> Dreams and visions are seeing in the spirit. I had in my mind that dreams and visions was a gift in and of itself. You're saying that is falls under this discerning of spirits. So, you, you believe >> I do. Dreams and visions are a form of seeing in the spirit. >> I really do because, um, so for example, there was, I was having a dream, um, 'cause the, it translates together. So, let me give you an example. I was having a dream and I was feeling this pressure on my chest, like it felt like something was just pushing on me. It was pushing on me, and I was in my dream, like I was stuck on the ground and I couldn't get up. Okay. So, it ended up kind of turning into maybe a little bit of a sleep paralysis situation. So, I'm praying, and like, I, the only thing I can come up with is like, "Jesus, save me, right? Call upon his name." >> So then, um, Jesus beams down, the demons flew away, and then I felt this pressure off. But then I woke up out of the dream, and then I see them flying around in the bedroom, right? So that's the, it's not just, it's the spirit is not just one or the other. I really do think it kind of interweaves itself in between >> normal life, dream life, visions, and spirits, and the whole, the whole thing. >> Yeah, I have heard other similar things like that. That's interesting. So, it, it is all one. It's just where you see them. >> Yeah. >> That's really cool. Okay, so you were in three different modes. You were in dream mode. I think I saw something out of the corner of my eye, and there's homeboy right there. >> There he is. He's standing. He's looking at us. >> So, go ahead, continue with that. >> So, uh, so for example, everybody thinks, right, it's a, "I see him right there all the time, right?" And but that's that's not necessarily true. That happens a lot. So, for example, um, I was, we were getting craft stuff for a project at Michaels, and I'm literally standing there, and I just, like, I could see this girl just super close to me, and I'm like, "Why is this lady standing right on top of me?" And I look over at my wife. My wife just like, kind of shrugs. She didn't know what I was referring to. I'm just trying to get some, like, some help. And so I turned back, and she wasn't even, it wasn't even like I turned fully where this person would have been, and she wasn't there, right? So I could see her. I could feel her, like, I had the goosebumps. I knew she was around, but she really wasn't there. She was a spirit in that area, right? So that was like, I knew it was there, kind of like you're there, but like, when, like in Star Wars where they slash through Obi-Wan and then he, like, he turns into the spirit. That's kind of what it was like. So, that's happened quite a few times. Um, that's pretty consistent. And then there's also the side of like seeing demons. They kind of look like a lot of them look like little gargoyles, right? Like on the old churches and all the stuff. I see a lot of those. I see a lot of those perched up in places. Uh, if I kind of walk into a room or, like, a restaurant that maybe doesn't have a good vibe, kind of a lot of times I see them on top of alcohol bottles, um, at the top, overlooking the, um, overlooking the restaurant. That's super common. Um, so that's one of them, too. I, I got tons of examples, so you're going to have to narrow me down. >> Come on with it, man. This is really interesting. Um, I want to know what people see when they see in the spirit. What percentage is demonic versus angelic? >> A lot of it's demonic. Um, and not demonic, it, it's, it's scary at the start. You're like, "Man, that thing looks scary." Um, I, a big reason I pray, I think, into Psalms. Um, I pray to be a warrior for God. And I pray, and God, I think, has moved me into a spiritual warrior, a prayer warrior. And so when I see those demons, I pray over them and I cast them out. Like, I, whenever I see things that are not of God, I pray, um, protection. And I pray, like, over the people, um, like it's a consistent, I'm trying to, like, get them out of there, right? And so that's a big portion of it, too, um, that I go through. So that's pretty common. Um, >> Do you see angels? >> Yeah. Yeah. So I've seen four angels, four vivid angels in my life. Um, so I've seen my guardian angel. I've seen my wife's. I've seen, um, there was an angel, uh, that I saw in, uh, Las Vegas. And then, uh, I had an experience, uh, in the hospital, not for myself, that I saw an angel as well. >> So this isn't a, you know, every week, daily basis type thing. This is a rare occurrence that you see those. And then these little demonic things or big demonic things, whatever, you see those guys, is that also rare, or is that something you see daily? >> Yeah, super common. Um, and it, a lot of it is like dominion over the place of like, you, like, like I was saying, when you go into somewhere, like, "I don't know if I should be in here." Like, that's where I see a lot of them. The angels are much more, uh, rare than that. Like, I see my guardian angel. I pray with my guardian angel. Um, I ask him to come pray with me. I ask him to come worship me. I pray to empower him. Um, so I have a consistent relationship with him that God's permitted. And then the other ones are less common. That's interesting that you see demons daily and angels rarely. I guess if you understand and you have taken on this role of, you know, battler for the kingdom of heaven, >> probably showing you where the battle is, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> That's interesting. All of this is, is really interesting. You asked for that gift, though. >> Mhm. And were your eyes just suddenly opened, or how did, did this gift come upon you? This isn't something you've always had. It's it's more recent, right? >> It is more recent. After, um, after my supernatural encounter with with Jesus, that's when it, the floodgates kind of started to open. And, um, that's where it's kind of the way to think about it is, God wants me to see what he wants me to see, right? It's not, if, if all this is real, and the veil was completely, the people use the veil because it's the best way to describe it, like in a play where they're opening the curtains and then you can finally see the stuff behind it. The stuff behind it's been there the whole time, right? But you couldn't see it because of that curtain in the way, right? So when people refer to the veil, that's how I think about it. And it's not like the veil was just torn open and you can see the whole set behind. It's, uh, for me, been a more gradual, but the rate at which, you know, that it's been taking off since I got, um, the gift has been really, really a fast pace. Um, because I think there's a lot of, a lot of stuff going on right now. A lot of spiritual attack going on right now. So I think God's bringing more people into that battle. Is your spiritual visual acuity improving over time? >> Oh yeah, way more vivid. Uh, instead of it just being a shadow in the corner, like I could see, like the teeth on the little demon. >> Way more, way more vivid for sure. >> And your ability to see them in general. Are you seeing more as time goes on, or is it a pretty consistent, um, landscape of of what you see? It's, it's a pretty consistent, like, um, and it, it's like I said, depending where you are, right? Like, and then if I'm in this one part of town that I shouldn't be in, right? Or there's bad things happening, and like, because you, you just know sometimes that those things are happening, I'll see a lot more there. Um, or sometimes I'll be in a place and it's like the veil's taken off and like, "Okay, let's start praying. Let's, um, let's start, like, for example, when I was in, uh, in the hospital with somebody, like, it was like the veil was ripped off, and there were tons of things that I saw in the hospital. >> Yeah, it's interesting. You know, you think, okay, you're walking down the street, or you're walking through a shopping area or restaurants or whatever. Do you, is it a deal where you, you kind of turn it on and off, or like you think, "Okay, I'm walking through and I see things normally, and now I want to really see what's here." Is it like, is a decision? Is there an adjustment with your spiritual eyes that you make to that causes you to see like you would if you were putting on infrared, yeah. >> night vision goggles to see in the night? >> No. Great question. It's, I'm seeing what's there that, like, God permits me to see. So, for example, uh, we went into a store and, like, in the corner, I saw this. It was, he was pretty tall. He was like, taller than everybody by by a head, and I just saw him just kind of pointing, and, you know, he had that stereotypical, like, demon face. And, um, and, uh, I just started praying, praying, trying to, like, just under my breath, right? 'Cause it's that whole, like, "Do you believe it? Do you not? Is he crazy? What is he muttering about in the corner?" Right? As you're praying, right? So, I just started praying over everybody. And then I asked God, "Is there something you want me to do about that spirit? Like, is there something you want me to do about that demon?" And then, yeah, you pray, keep praying over him, or no, I just wanted you to see him. Or it's, it really is kind of a situational thing. So you wouldn't encounter someone who is behaving erratically and then like adjust your eyes to try to see what's going on spiritually with that person. You're going to see it or not whether. Yeah, that's a. And so that's a, I'm glad you said it like that. So, for example, um, I was with my wife and we were out doing something. Somebody was talking to us and, uh, they were talking about this opportunity that they had, and then I just knew, I'm, I'm like, I knew his next words were, "But I'm scared to do it." And some some concept. So we were walking, I didn't see anything, and then he says, "But I'm just so scared to do that, um, opportunity." And then I saw this, like, and as a noose around his neck, and then the tail, uh, the tail was the end of the noose. So, like, there are times like people, what people are saying could, then God's like, "Yeah, look at this." >> So, that's an example of that. So when he said that, it, this was revealed to you. >> Yeah. It was completely revealed. Yeah. >> But like people talk about speaking in tongues. It's a, it's a decision they make a lot of times on on speaking in tongues with that gift. They can kind of do it or not do it. Mhm. >> Seeing in the spirit in your experience isn't something that you can kind of choose to do or not do. It is there. >> It's there. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's interesting. You've made mention two or three times about a supernatural encounter with Jesus. I believe you said it was in 2023. >> Yeah. July 2023. >> Can you tell us about that? >> Yeah, I'd love to. >> Okay. I've not told this story a bunch of times, so I'm going to piece it together the best I can. Um, so earlier in my adult life, I was having, um, a lot, a lot of problems with pornography. Um, I never cheated, right? Depends what you classify as cheating, right? What standard are we going off of, right? Where's the goalpost? But, um, so what ended up happening is that was a consistent thing that I struggled with in my life for a pretty long period of time. So, this was after I was saved, after I was baptized just a few years ago. And, um, there were count, like everybody says, like countless times I tried to stop, but I didn't. And, um, so finally, uh, a few days before this encounter with God, I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to stop. Um, this is it. I'm done." Right? And, uh, I just kind of just kind of saw God just kind, not God himself, but just kind of like, you just know his presence is there, just kind of overlook and wasn't really saying much about it. Like that, uh, experience you were referring to earlier where you're like, "I've not seen him in a long time," and I'm like, "God, just take this away from me if you're real." Like the whole contingency list, right? And so finally, um, I get to the point, um, it ended up being two days later, and on YouTube, I was watching, and there were videos of, um, people doing revival on people in the street. Uh, this young man, he has a church down in Orlando, and he just goes on the street, he starts praying for people. "Hey, do you believe in Jesus?" Like, "Tell me what you think about God." So, I really started following his content. Um, and I was just sitting there watching it and, um, just watching, and then I'm like, "God, I want to be able to do that. Like, I want to be able to help people. I want to be able to, uh, you know, if I want to be able to go to him in Orlando and help people, like that whole thing." So, what ends up happening is, um, God says, and I didn't know anything like this would be the thing, this is what would have transpired. I wasn't even thinking about the pornography or anything like that. Um, this list of the sequence of things just kind of all happened at the same time. So, God said, "Okay, well, go out." So, I don't want to work out, right? Like, you know, right? Everybody gets it. Like, "Hey,

I need you to go do this thing you don't want to do. I play collegiic soccer, so I've worked out plenty in my life. And I was like, I don't want to do that. And so, he said, go work out.

So, after I went and I started working out and then I just got this rush to go to my computer in my office and uh just pull up YouTube and I was just thinking about the gentleman's church. And I'm like, man. So, I finished working out and I go on there and the first video that popped up, thank you YouTube algorithm. I don't know. Thanks God. Right. It said, uh, watch this if you're struggling with pornography. Kid you not. The first one, first top corner, and I got goosebumps. So grateful.

So I click on the video and it's a 15minute video. And the video starts with he just looks in the camera. He says, "If you're willing to quit it all today, watch this video. Otherwise, don't even watch it." Right? Really holding you accountable of are you going to make the commitment or not, right? An all in or nothing. So, I just said, you know, this is this is the moment. I'm just done. Um this isn't my marriage, right? I have my wife um that I'm supposed to be stewarding and I'm bringing this into our marriage. Um, and so I watch the whole video and then about the last three, four minutes, he just starts I just like picture the sword of just like like he just starts ripping. He's like any demonic presence. Um, and so he was going through in the first part of it his video his struggle. Hey, this was in my life. Um, I was able God was able to break it for me. Um, and then towards the end of the video, he said, "All right, if you want me to pray for you, sit there and let's do the thing essentially."

So, he starts praying and uh I at that point like it was like a pure like exorcism like it was stereotypical like I hit the floor. Um, like he's still uh praying over the video like full volume. >> He's he's leading a deliverance session. and he is commanding demons out. Is that right? >> That's exactly right. So then I'm on the floor and I'll never forget I saw it was almost like an out-of- body experience almost. So I saw him on the computer on my left. I saw the dogs my dogs in the in the far part of the house just looking at me like I was a crazy person. Like is he okay? And for three four minutes he's just praying. He's just uh praying praying praying. And then afterwards, um, like done with the whole like literally like exorcism encounter is what it felt like. I didn't know that stuff was real yet. I had never really seen any of that. And I saw that in myself. And um, I just got up and I started crying. I was just like, I can't even believe all of that was inside me. Like the guilt, the shame, and then just feeling so unclean, right? that all of that was uh like driving my marriage, right? Was a part of my marriage.

So, I end up making it into the bathroom and I like was throwing up a few more times and then um there was a moment where it all just stood still and I was sitting there. I'm like, well, this is weird cuz I just went through 15 minutes of deliverance, right? And uh I see Jesus. He came down ropes wide as snow and he stands next to me and he puts his uh hands on me uh like literally just put his hand on me, his left hand and he says, "You are forgiven. Go tell your wife." And then he left. And um so I ended up getting on the phone. I called Rihanna. Um I call I ended up getting on the phone. I called my wife and just called her crying. I'm like, "I'm so sorry. This was a part of it. like it'll never happen again. Um, and just was on the phone crying for like 15 minutes because I saw the severity of what I was letting into our marriage. Um, and that really really hurt me. Um, so after that, um, I went I bought a Bible and God's like, "Go buy a Bible right now." So then I just ended up, um, addicted from that point forward. Um, and I just told God, I said like one miracle is worth a lifetime of worship and I will do anything you want for the rest of existence. I'm just I couldn't even believe the what was inside of me that I just was living with.

So, um, >> and this was when you were a Christian. You were already a Christian life to Christ. >> Yeah. living in this complicit sin and you know obsession with >> complicity >> pornography. Yeah. So it's the complicit sin is one of those primary portals, right, for the demonic to come in and >> and and um become an unwanted guest and oppress. And you went through deliverance and you like >> this is like >> they are manifesting as they're coming out, but they're doing it as as as >> as throwing up. Yeah. >> As was it coughing? Was it other things? >> Yeah, it was throwing up. I was shaking. Uh, I was literally on the floor like fetal position, >> gag and stuff like that, >> crying. Um, I ended up throwing up a lot more once I like I had to go clean the floor like cuz I was throwing up on the floor. >> That's incredible. >> It unbelievable. >> Yeah, >> it looks different for different people in different circumstances. Um, so interesting that you really didn't subscribe to that or understand it in that he took you through a deliverance session and I mean it became super >> Yeah. >> real. How did you feel after that experience? It was a really weird mix of emotions cuz I felt not that I felt I felt a little shameful. I felt a little guilty. Um, but that was like God told me not to feel that way, right? Like he didn't come to condemn like 3:17, right? John 3:17, he didn't come to condemn. Um, but the accountability of like, hey, yeah, that was all real. Um, that was all part of you. That was all stuff that you let in. Um, but more the biggest emotion was just like that peace feeling and then uh like the fire in my bones of like there's somebody else dealing with this. There's somebody else that has it in their marriage and I want to tell this story to as many people as possible so that they know um the severity but then also that there is there is redemption. Um and that's not who you are, right? just like people people subscribe to their addictions um and that there is healing from that. Um so it was a good mix of kind of shame a little bit but like really the biggest one is fire in my bones of just like man everybody's got to I know this is really a big thing right now.

So >> did you continue to struggle with it for a little bit after that for a little while before it went away? No, really. I So, I've not even done anything like that since um like sometimes you'll get that and the way I think about it now, it's a tactic, right? I can see it's a tactic by the enemy of wouldn't that be great kind of like that whole it would be better mentality like hey, one time's not bad, all that kind of stuff. And it's more not necessarily, it's not a temptation, it's a tactic is what I see it as. And it doesn't I'm like, yeah, right, haha, kind of thing. and it doesn't bother me. Um, but yeah, the desire, the biggest, another big desire is seeing women as children of God >> and seeing them as uh like as as women of God as and now that I have daughters, right, as uh children of God and sisters and not the other uh the other stuff. So, that was a big portion of it as well. Um, like there's not, it's funny because like I can look over at somebody and like I'll see like maybe like they have a great glow in their eyes like they look happy but there's no temptation, right? It's just like I'm happy for you. Just like how we can look at each other and be happy for each other and that temptation isn't a part of it. Um, like that's the same thing that now I can see women that way and that's something that God took away from me.

Well, that's an interesting The last thing you said there is God took it away and sometimes what's interesting about that is to be able to go cold turkey like that. >> Yeah. >> And the question is, okay, did you employ a technique or did something happen? was a an unclean spirit or a group of unclean spirits residing inside of you. >> Yeah. >> That were extracted in a moment and that was the difference versus hey let's here's a new perspective. Let's not look at women this way. Let's look at them as children and go okay let me let me concentrate on doing that and you know, when when I get tempted to do this, let's just view that as a tactic versus a, you know, a solution to something for me. And I'll employ these techniques and eventually I'll live a lifestyle free from that. >> Right. >> Right. That sounds like a something a plan that the world would give you to to remove an addiction like pornography. >> Exactly. >> But it doesn't sound like that's what you're describing. >> No. And I've really thought about it a lot. Um, as I've been thinking about telling the story of what was the difference between all the other times, right? Everybody that's had some sort of addiction says this is the time. This is the time. This is the time. And really the difference was my uh utter disgust, right? Like I refuse. I don't consent. I don't want that in my marriage. I don't want that in my house. I don't want that addiction in me. And that was the like the snowball over the edge. And then I really feel like God said, "Okay, now we can work with that." Right? Because in the back of my head, like and I would love to have a a vision about complicit sin that I want to tell later. Um but like that complicit sin of it's not that bad, right? You could just sell me the car, like all that kind of stuff, right? So I got to the point to where I said, um, you know, I can't even believe I'm doing this to my wife. um and really just said, "I will do anything for this to be gone."

>> The veil was kind of lifted, huh? >> Completely. Yeah. >> About what it really was. >> Yeah. >> What did Jesus look like? >> He looked uh it was I'll never forget. So, the white robes. I saw his feet and sandals. And then I looked up and his I saw his eye and literally the like the fire that people describe as his like looking into his eyes. I think about in Passion of the Christ when uh um when they're sentencing Jesus and um Barnabas looks over and like you just see that glow, that fire, that orange just like uh like that fire in your bones. That's what it uh that's what I saw in his eyes. And uh just him putting his hand on my shoulder and just like you're forgiven uh was literally uh like one of the best moments of my life. >> Was he tall? >> Yeah, he was tall. I I was on my knees throwing up. He >> Everybody was tall. >> Everybody was tall, but yeah, he was like he did like I would guess he was like 5'11, like that kind of height. Um and yeah, just I will never forget that fire. Um >> he put his hand on you. >> Yeah. >> What was that like? Uh, it almost felt like like that like when people say washing away like like when you wash your hands after a dirty day. That's what it felt like when it was over my shoulder and I could just feel it like like I got goosebumps now. You just feel it going away. >> In other words, he touched you and you became clean. >> Mhm. >> You think about when the leper came to him. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, if if there were any contact >> with even his robes, right? anything like that in that day, the leper touching the healer would make the healer unclean >> ceremonial unclean and certainly could catch leprosy too. >> Yeah. >> But when the leper touched Jesus, the leper became clean. >> Mhm. >> And so when Jesus touched you, you felt a change as if you were being cleaned. >> That's cool. >> It was pretty awesome. >> What about his feet? It just uh like the robes were up to like probably this portion just um that was kind of that was just I I don't know normal is not the right word right but that was just kind of that was normaly I guess >> I mean was this like a vision an apparition type thing or was this like a guy in your eye? It it was like a it was literally like like I've explained like you can see the stuff out of the corner of your eye and then you're like I see you right there like and people have the choice to believe that or not but it was he was right there standing over top of me. >> I mean you can conjure up a an image in your head. Let's say I can imagine my wife standing here right now. I mean I can see her right >> right >> in my mind. You're not saying that's what it was. You're saying >> like >> there was a person flesh and bones >> in my room. >> Could have pulled the shower curtain too, right? >> He may have to help me out. I don't know. >> So, so that's real there. That's like a tangible touching. That's a >> There's a There's a difference there. >> Yeah. It's >> versus imagining something and what you can do with your imagination versus Uhuh. Well, and I even like felt the pressure on my shoulder, right? Like I felt pressure, right? >> Yeah. It was um Yeah, like the actual pressure and then just like when you uh drop a water and it ripples through like the like the unclean just off and then peaceful still water. And so you say that it was after this encounter that seeing in the spirit really >> began to open up for you. >> Mhm. >> How do you use that gift? >> Good question. There's a few portions to it. Um, a big part of it is I think building resilience of um, like a lot of people like get I think I've been I've being molded to be able to articulate to people that it is um, it's not scary. We're safe. Uh, the war's already won. And then um I I just want to be able to continue to share that message. So for example, I use it to be able to pray for people, right? Because prayer is it if Lazarus get up, right? Lazarus awaken, whatever the the actual words are, right? That's that's words, right? Given by the God, given by our God. So our words do matter. Proverbs says there's life and death in the tongue. There's no in between, right? It doesn't say you're kind of speaking life, you're kind of speaking death. There's an in between. So, I want um using prayer is a big part of it. Um and then being able to help people like so for example um when the gentleman I saw the noose around his neck that was a snake. I said, "Well, that sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, doesn't it?" like to be able to go do that. So, trying to help people shift their language and kind of upset those demons, right? Like you don't have to be fearful. That's actually a pretty cool thing you got to go do. Um, and then really uniting and just staying consistent with God of, okay, what do you need me to pray for? What do you need me to see to help people? Is there a message that you need from people? So, it's kind of a mix of all those things is what I'm doing.

In the past, people who saw things or heard things that everybody else couldn't see and hear were considered to be maybe they need some psychological help. >> Yeah. institutionalized or diagnosed or put on medication or some sort of um treatment plan >> for them. >> Yeah. >> How did did you have to navigate those thoughts as well? >> That was those were the primary thoughts because I didn't grow up in the church, right? There was no uh there was no normaly about that. Um, and I was just like, man, okay, I don't since I got closer to God and I was like, okay, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood and that this is a real thing, I can understand and be on God's team with that, but then what are other people going to think? What are other people who can I tell this to, right? Well, I I have a good support system of a few people I can tell this to, but everybody in my everybody else in my life, if I tell them this kind of stuff, they just like, are you sure? Like, what's wrong with you? So, that's where I pray for uh boldness and bravery to be able to just be like, you know, the most high God has my back. I'm just going to keep doing what what he wants me to do and stick with that. So yeah, that's that was a really big portion of trying to keep me distracted and away from using that gift.

So let's say that there's somebody watching this that sees things >> and they've not told anybody about it and they don't really know what to make of it. >> Mhm. or hears things or senses things and they're not going to tell anybody that because they're afraid somebody's going to think they're crazy and they just want to be able to fit in with their friends and their family and and that sort of thing. What do you say to them? >> Yeah, that's a really good question because that's that's the life that I've lived um to a certain extent. Um the first thing is understanding that it is real. It is out there. Are you willing to accept that? Are you willing to fight with God on uh his behalf? But that gives you the opportunity to really build your relationship with God. Okay. So, for example, I'm seeing all these crazy things. Um I don't even there was a point where I'm like, I don't even know if I can tell my wife this stuff, right? I just didn't know. um we weren't at that point yet and I was so I was like well I need to keep strengthening my relationship with God and I see this a lot with people that um are too that don't put God first in their life right whether idolatry can be anything right could be a TV show it could be actual altars it can be anything so are you um it forces you to be in relationship with God even more because he's the only one that has your back Right. I was listening to a Billy Graham uh sermon and he was really talking about he's like who side are you going to take? Are you going to take the people that are willing to ridicule you are willing to call you crazy or not even willing to listen or are you going to go on the side of the most high God? So that's the that's the tactic that I've used is I just keep getting closer to him. Um and then just realizing like he knows I'm not crazy, right? like God knows this is all real. And then um having confidence in yourself as the person of um yeah, you just got to you just got to dive in. You got to you have to if you have something like that kind of gift, you're going to be attacked even more. Like if you're not being attacked by the enemy, you're you're kind of being you're in along with him, right? So, if you don't um get those tormentful dreams, if you do see stuff and then you just ignore it, um I think about how ignoring or not standing up for what's right is uh compliance with what's wrong in my opinion. So, that's really the stance I took. There's a level of faith as well, right? This is faith is being able to accept what it is. And then I I feel like when when God gives us stuff or speaks to us, there's purpose behind it. >> Exactly. >> It's not just for our our consumption. There's something that we are then to go and do in the world based on that. So, we talk about having faith. And I I don't think faith is just saying, "Okay, well, I'm going to I'm going to check the box. I'm going to be Christian. I'm going to believe that Jesus is the son of God and and God is real and he died for my sins and I'll go to heaven." And so, that's faith. >> And I would say, "No, that's not faith. That's that's belief in God. And that's subscribing to Christianity and and belief in God is good. But faith is about showing you got faith, right? You think about >> losing yourself. >> Yeah. You think about when Jesus marveled at the centurion's faith. >> Mhm. >> It's a great story. Matthew 8ish, 18. I can't remember. It's I I wish I was better at remembering where everything is, but uh anyway, he says, "Never in Israel have I seen such faith." And the faith that he was talking about is the centurion had a servant um that was paralyzed and he approached Jesus. The centurion did servants back at the house and he tells him and Jesus says, "Okay, I'll come. I'll heal him." And the centurion stops him and says, "You don't have to actually be next to him." >> Yeah, >> I know that. You could just say the word and he would be healed. And so you think, okay, the people in that immediate area are like, you got a healer that's wanting to come to your house and heal. That's how they heal. They get there and this one's really cool cuz he doesn't have a doctor bag or anything. He just touches them or just speaks over them. >> So why don't you just do that? And he he had enough faith to say something really ridiculous at the time that was, you don't even have to come. You could say the word from here and not be in proximity and I believe that he would be healed. And Jesus marveled. It's like, look at the faith on this guy. >> That's what I'm talking about. And so, what do you do with the gift? >> Yeah. >> How do you exercise faith with what it appears that God has given you? The question was for these people who think maybe they're seeing things, maybe there is they don't want to seem crazy. It seems like a piece of this has to be how are you what are you going to do with it? >> Right? >> Are you going to hold it and not tell anybody about it or are you going to use it? Is God giving you this to make you appear crazy in the world or is he giving you this to go and make a difference for the kingdom of heaven in the world? I don't have this gift. I'm going to ask for it more than I have and we shall see. Right. >> Yeah. >> The question I think God would say is okay if I give you the gifts, what you going to do with it? Yeah. The gift isn't for you. The gift is for you to use. I say that all the time of think about like an orange tree produces an orange and the orange tree doesn't cannibalize the orange. Like that's not it's not the sustenance of the orange for the orange tree, right? Water, light, dirt, right? So, what are you willing um within the confines of what God needs, right? Because like you said earlier, it really is it's a growing process, right? It would be a very very overwhelming thing to go from no dreams to dreams seven nights a week or the veil's here and then it's gone, right? So, are you willing to do that and follow that relationship with him?

What have you learned about the nature of God and the nature of the spiritual life through what you've experienced that you didn't understand early on? >> Two things. The wisdom of God of like in that uh like you were just saying he had an understanding that God that Jesus could heal him without even going. Right. So the I've seen a lot more of the wisdom of God in creation and how he protects us, right? How the how important the blood is because the blood is the only thing that's saving us from that realm. And then his mercy is a big one as well. Um, if you're a person that's had a pretty like a lot of people have had a reoccurring nightmare or uh like a horrific dream, that would have been life. That would have been the authority that um the the enemy, the demons would have if he didn't come down and die on the cross, right? He purchased us. He saved us from all of that. And sometimes when you don't see all the bad, you don't realize how good it is, right? Like I walked uphill both ways in the snow, right? Well, I didn't have to, so I don't know how hard that is, right? There's some level of since we don't see all of the terrible things um that can happen in the spirit or that people um experience that um you just don't really know it's there. So it shows the mercy of God to all the things that he really did die for on the cross. Goes further than just your salvation. It goes to protect you. It goes to buy your soul. It goes to give you wisdom. It goes so that he can be a part of us.

Somebody wants this gift. What do they need to do? >> Need to ask God if this is what a gift that they're supposed to have. Right? I came there was a point in my like in my work career where I was like this is what I'm going to do with 100% of my energy 100% of the time and whether that means I'm doing this job this job this job or this job this is what I'm doing okay for this company. So I think about God in the same way of um there are people that are meant to have this gift obviously, but if this isn't it, are you willing to still be in relationship with him and are you open to the idea that there may be a different path? But if this is truly so transitioning to if this is truly you know that this is cuz like I kind of knew in my soul like I think this is where I'm supposed to be going and if it is now you have to really fortify yourself in the word um and fortify yourself in God. Otherwise you can be tormented really easily especially if you see things or you feel things. Um you can be tormented really easily. So it forces you to be closer to God.

What's the coolest thing you've ever seen? >> The coolest thing I ever seen, I uh when I had to go to the into the hospital the other week, um we were sitting there the whole way up to the hospital. We were just praying uh and just like please protect us, put the right people cuz that's something too, right? We can pray for all these different things. And what's your mindset of prayer? Is it like God thank you for today or are you asking God? I ask God for so many things. It doesn't mean I get them all. God, please make sure the right staff is with me at the right time to give my family the best results, right? Like, why wouldn't he want to do that for us, right? So, we go into the hospital, we get up the um and we end up having to sit there for about 40 minutes. And so, a lot of people would be like, "This is crazy. This is like they need all the negatives that go into that." And um we make it into the room and I just heard kind of like that heard audible voice and I was like just heard uh my perfect timing and then I saw this angel come down into the room and uh the angel said, "I'm here to give wisdom to the staff and protect God's children." And so, okay, crazy, whatever people may think. Then the nurse walks in. She's on this side of the room over here, 5 yards away from this hand sanitizer station. Okay. And uh the hand sanitizer station, nobody was around it. It just keeps going off and off and off and off. And she's like, "There must be a ghost in here." We're like, "No, not a ghost." And she's like, "What are you talking about?" So God's like, "Tell her." I told her and she said, "I believe that." And then walked out. So, we got a believer. We got somebody that was bought into helping our family. Like the whole situation was literally exactly perfect. But like this angel was just so majestic. Like he had huge wings. Like he took up the whole room. Um so that was probably the coolest one that I've seen >> recently. >> Yeah. Like literally three weeks ago, four weeks ago. >> Yeah. >> That's cool.

You probably get this with people who are around you. Do you see anything today? No, I feel like I have goosebumps. Um I feel protection. I feel safety. Um you made a really wise prayer praying over the property. People forget about that. Um people uh like have welcome mats and this and that. Like what are you welcoming? Right? Like is that something you're willing to believe or not? Um, I feel just I really encourage people to do this podcast because there is I think a level of safety, a level ordained and then um just protection over this property. A really really strong protection over this property.

It's an interesting thing. You you see in the spirit, but you also feel in the spirit. >> Yeah. >> What's that like? >> Do is that something that you >> can describe? I mean, you talk about the way you feel here, which is really cool and important to hear. Didn't see anything, but there's a >> Yeah, there's a when you're feeling um it goes both ways, right? Good and bad. Um for me, I get goosebumps and then um but there uh feeling is just kind of like I like when I say that I get physical symptoms, right? Like physical and emotional. like there's a sense of peace, but then I have goosebumps all up my shoulder. Um I used that at the start before I could see as confirmation. Be like, "Hey, God, show me that I'm doing the right thing." And I would get, you know, these goosebumps. Um so, and then there's like I've said before, you're just in a bad area. You have that gut feeling and then maybe like it just um like can feel cold um or like a rush of just anxiety, right? I think about Harry Potter when the dementors fly when the dementors fly through people that's that's a real feeling of what it's like. >> Yeah. Do you ever feel air movement? >> Yeah. Yeah. We uh all Yeah. All the time air movement like electronics will go off that nobody's around. Um like and a big tactic at the start for me in creating unbelief was to make it seem so crazy that there and this is by the enemy. I mean make it seem so crazy that there was nothing a human could do about it which is completely true. That's why God came to save us. Right? So the fact that he came down now we have all authority. Luke 10:19 right? We have all authority over the power of the enemy. Right? So that was a tactic that was used for me at the start.

You mentioned earlier that you wanted to touch on a teaching or something earlier. I want to make sure that you get a chance to do that. >> Please. So I was in this uh and this was about I would say four months ago. I was in this really big struggle with um just not understanding the concept of the power of our words. Right? So, I would be really quick to say uh just not mean things, right? But just things that were unkind, right? Oh, they should know how to do that. Um just not watching my tongue, right? And so I had felt like this lesson uh just like the complicit sin, right? Like I kind of knew I was doing it. I knew I was not speaking life into people. I knew so in return I was speaking death. And uh I said something that was over the top, like wasn't nice at all. Just something like, "Oh, well, she's dumb for not knowing that." Whatever it was, right? And um God said, "Go pray." So I go pray and I'm in my office. I'm on my knees praying and I go um and it was like it was like almost like an instant going into a dream instantly and um I just see him being just lashed and scorned and he's just looking at me. So God's like faced like this. I'm standing probably like 45 degrees from him. And every time uh they kept whipping him and uh scorging him, he said, "This is what happens when you don't watch your tongue." Because it was a complicit sin that I was not like I knew I was doing just like the pornography stuff, right? I knew I was doing that and he died for all sins past, present, and future, right? So, I just see him and the blood just hit me in the eyes and I wipe it off and I just like broke into tears of like I didn't realize the severity of what I was doing and what I was saying to people and it went on. He like it was almost like he wanted me to he wanted me to sit there and watch and it was probably 10 15 lashes of just boom boom and like I would every time I just saw like a word pop up like you know like sorry I just saw a word pop up of just a mean word that I would have said to somebody and it just and just went away and went away and uh it was it was like a three or four minute thing of just watching him get crucifi or uh being lashed >> that were representative of your words that were cutting to other people. Exactly. >> To whatever degree. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So speak life. >> Yeah. >> And that the words have power and meaning and they do. >> And there's no in between. Right. And uh Billy Graham said there's uh your silence gives the opportunity for holiness. Um because you could say something that could, you know, really hurt somebody. And just because you don't say it and they hear it doesn't mean that it wasn't put out there, right? The energy was still put out there. It's still out there in the spirit. And um it it it really is a severe thing of when you're in uh you said complicit like I said disobedient in the in the letter that I wrote of just I'm choosing I'm refusing not to this that's what what price that was paid for it.

I always like to this so fascinating things all around this and I haven't asked any of the questions I have on my iPad over here. I I'm just it's about what's going on in this conversation and what God's hitting me with in the moment, which is uh really fascinating. And I think we could go for quite a while. I always want to be able to sit down with people who see in the spirit and have these gifts and and talk about the ways we receive them, what their purpose really is. >> Yeah. I always like to try to mine for deeper richer richer spiritual insights around the purpose of these kinds of things so that people can then take that and apply it to their own spiritual walk in their own lives. We often like to have takeaways for um the person who's searching, right? People are here because they're searching for God. They're searching for >> more about his character and nature. Some people are searching to to just want to know if he's actually real. People are trying to understand the spiritual realm around them that they can't really see but they feel like is there. Are there things that you can offer based on your experience that are something that the average Christian in pursuit of truth can grab on to that would make a difference in their own faith walk for I've noticed this a lot because um I'm a very intense person. Uh, I'm all in or nothing. And I think about uh when JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I really think about that a lot in my relationship with God. And it's not necessarily I'm telling God, I'm going to see in the spirit to serve you. It's God, what can I do for you? And what I've noticed with people um that have been saved but haven't pursued more is they're not necessarily seeking that next level. Um, there's people that people are supposed to talk to, right? There are people that are being commissioned to do great things and really just are you willing to buy in? Are you willing to be in relationship with him? And um like go take it by the horns, right? be in prayer. When's the last time there are people, and this was me, like when's the last time people just picked up and read their Bible or they writing scripture on note cards to help, you know, memorization or cuz these are all our weapons, right? How did how did uh Jesus what did Jesus say to the enemy? It is written. And then quote Deuteronomy, right? Right. When the Israelites were acting out, right? This is this is our weapon. Hebrews talks about a two-edged sword, right? A double-edged sword. You only take a double-edged sword into battle. So, this is our um lifeline. The word is our lifeline. He is the word. John 1:1 in the beginning was the word. John 14 and the word uh was flesh. Right? So, really, really, really all the other stuff comes when you seek him is really the biggest thing that I've noticed. when you take that first step and you're like, "Yeah, I'm willing to set my ego aside, willing to set my unbelief aside and just be with me, God." Like a lot of times I'll pray and just pull up a chair like God, you want to come pray with me, right? Like he's if where are you willing to buy in? If you are willing to believe Genesis 1:1 and you believe that he is who he says he is, God, then why would any of the other stuff not be able to happen, right? And I in I think about Jes Jesus's ministry, all the amazing healings and teachings and then people think, okay, well, it's 2025. Like I feel like there's this like, well, that was that was in the Bible. Is it true? Is it not true? Like I I believe it all is true and I believe that he would do the same thing for us now. We just have to really build that relationship with him.

>> That's good. Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness >> and all these things will be added to you >> and then your heart changes. Right? The desires of my heart have changed. Right? I used to love certain things. Now I don't love certain things at all. Right? We were in a situation where uh a woman was having a hard time. She was screaming in the restaurant. She was going crazy. And everybody else in the store was snickering. Oh, like that's kind of crazy. Like that's not the desire of my heart. Like I want I want healing for her. I want her to feel better. Right? It's not funny that she's having a hard time. Right? And these goalposts, it's a tactic by the enemy to gradually move these goalposts. Well, you can watch porn if you don't cheat or you can like the goalposts consistently get moved, right? So, where's the moral standard? It's it's the book. It's Jesus. That is the moral standard and then buying into that. >> That's good. That's really good. Thinking of Matthew 6:33 that I was just quoting there. Notice that it doesn't say, "Seek these things and then you'll get the kingdom of God." >> Mhm. >> In other words, the gifts. >> Don't take your eyes off. It's like the dream you're talking about. >> It's so good. Goodness gracious. Holy Spirit, man. Falling on it. >> Glory to God. >> It's so good.

What are you asking for now? I am asking for an artist to be able my goal is to be able to show people uh the spirit really. I want I'm praying in an artist that can um help I'm not artistically inclined. Uh so I want somebody that could uh help uh translate pen to paper or whatever. Uh that's what I'm praying in right You think he's calling you to illustrate? >> I've I've been working. >> Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think um showing people because a a tactic is the hiding in the shadows. It's um keeping people like why were they uh they weren't letting people in back in the day like you couldn't read. They weren't teaching people how to read, right? It's all about hiding information so that people are confused, right? And they don't know what's going on. So for the things that God permits, I want to be able to show people this is what it looks like. This is how it is. It's glorious. Like it's beautiful. Like so. And then the other side, this is the negative stuff, but this is how we can deal with it. We're already one. You already have all the tools. And it's like when you get saved, you realize that Jesus died for us already. Like it like it happened, right? So that's the point where I want to make of just showing people kind of what it's like. But then uh like the cool stuff, too, because it's beautiful. It's miraculous. The colors. Uh sometimes there are colors that I see I just can't describe. Um >> describe them. >> Yeah, that's what I mean. I'm like, >> tell me about it. I mean, tell me the characteristics. What is it? I I've heard this many times and I'm always fascinated by how people actually do try to describe them. >> The the way the one that I kind of see a lot of times is like the most beautiful like sunset you've ever seen, that kind of orang-ish reddish um but then it's kind of it's like it's like it's not like this table is brown, right? like the colors almost seem like they kind of move and interweave and are like like if you were watching the sunset. Um like and we can't even see indigo, you know what I mean? Like so there's there is like stuff that's out there. Um so that's kind of that's that one I see a lot >> in your dreams. >> No. Yeah, kind of. So like I see it in the spirit like when I'm praying. Um so not dreaming necessarily but in the spirit in prayer. >> Oh wow. Yeah, I hear that with people that uh have >> had pretty profound indes and trips to >> um some vicinity of heaven. Whether it's actually in heaven or a suburb, I don't know. But they talk about the color >> in a different way. Um almost that it's like alive >> how you like moving. >> Yeah. And colors that you I've never seen here. And um I'm just fascinated by I think that's going to be an amazing experience when we get a chance to experience that fully. And um I can only imagine how glorious God has his heavenly experience. >> And I heard somebody once say um talk about talking about the flesh and then in the spirit everything's amplified >> like it's a thousand times more >> for the good and a thousand times worse. And when I've been in prayer um or seeing things like you really do see that there is like like these extra colors or whatever it is like there's more beauty to it but then also in the spirit there can be more darkness >> around it as well. >> Sure. >> I just love this. This is such a fascinating conversation. This has been so cool because I've gotten a chance to ask a lot of questions which has been great. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about that you'd like to mention? >> Yeah. Um, I want to tell uh the story about uh one of the angels I saw and I think this will give a lot of people uh a lot of peace. So, I was flying home from Las Vegas and it was the same

experience. I was uh getting onto the plane and I felt like just this tall person and I'm short so that doesn't mean a whole lot but this tall person right behind me and I was kind of getting frustrated. I'm like why are you so close to me like back up and I swung around and the next person next closest person was like 10 ft away. This chick looked at me like I was crazy. Like I was like sorry like I didn't really know what to say.

So um at that moment I just started praying. I was like hey God like what is this? And uh I just heard God say you can trust him. And um so I said, "Okay." So I ended up um just taking the flight home. And then three or 4 days later, we're just walking around the house and my wife's like, "There's something really big in the corner." Like, "Yeah." I said, "I forgot to tell you cuz we're busy. I just sometimes forget." So end up. And then we kept praying and kept praying, kept praying. and God just wasn't revealing it quite yet.

And what ended up happening is um I saw him more vividly. This I I know it's an angel now, more vividly for the first time. Kind of had like a burlap sack almost uh like kind of like a Santa Claus bag. I don't know. Uh but it was like brown and he was a little bit taller. Um no wings, just kind of like like a normal kind of person. Like if you saw somebody that was you like, "Oh, that's a tall guy." Saw his face. It was kind of roundish. And um I'm like, "Okay, God, like reveal like can you finally tell us why um he's here?"

And we would be uh sitting on the couch and the dogs would be in each corner of the room. We had four dogs at the time and like we would just see this uh this figure over by the dogs and the dogs would just be happy and just laying down and uh super peaceful. And then we kept seeing the figure by all the dogs. We ended up learning um that the shepherd that we had for uh eight years, he ended up getting stomach cancer. Um so God ended up um God said so finally we're praying. We're like, "Yeah, I think it's going to be time to put him down." And uh God said, "Okay, well, the reason that he's here is he's going to help your shepherd cross over out of the out of the physical to the spirit." Uh his name was Arco. And um so we brought people in to uh put him down and the peace over the whole situation like uh my wife and I could just see that figure just standing there. Um, and then ends up at the end of the process, um, the girl just breaks into tears. She's like, "I've never felt so peaceful, um, putting an animal down, and I could see your guys' love for him." And, uh, we just knew that angel was there to help.

And so, the where I'm going with the story is I want to show people that God loves all of his creations. um we get really locked into it's just angels and demons and this war, but he loves all of his creations and that um he has assignment on those kinds of things as well. >> That's so cool. That's really cool. Chris Lucas normalizing experiencing the spiritual and um I think that's good. >> I think it's good. we have doubted and um mocked and institutionalized and and not saying that there's not things that we need to treat things. I I get that we're not making any statements around that but there is >> a spiritual realm and I believe we can sense it. I think more of us can sense it than we give credit for and some of us can see it. not me but you and uh and others like you. And when you can reveal insights around that, I think it does build our faith. I think it I think it helps us to understand how things work a little bit better and the nature of God, the nature of the enemy of God. I think it reveals um that scary things, we don't need to fear scaryl looking things when God is our king and moving with us and when we're following him. And uh yeah, what a cool conversation, man. And um I I really look forward to hearing from you on how this develops from here. I think you're still a pretty young guy that has just a wealth of experience, which is wonderful. I love your critical mind and the way you evaluate things uh with with logic and science and spirituality and can sort of categorize them very well. it. >> Thank you. >> You you don't you're not far off on this side and far off on this side. You can you can have conversation across the spectrum and I think that's very healthy as it relates to the way we articulate our faith and the things we experience and encounter. But I'm energized about where it goes from here. And so I would hope that um as new things develop over time that you call me back and say, "Hey, Stace, I think we should sit down again." And um I think that'll be a great day. >> I'd love to. That would be so great. >> Chris Lucas, thanks for coming, man. >> Thank you so much for the opportunity.

God gives spiritual gifts so that we can know him more deeply and co-labor with him to advance his kingdom. And when it comes to seeing in the spirit, much of that gift is about exposing the schemes of the enemy so we can stand in truth and respond in the authority Jesus gives us. Chris Lucas is fully engaged in that battle. You may not have the same gifts as Chris, but spiritual authority isn't dependent on gifting. It comes from Christ who if you are a believer lives inside of you. So walk in faith. Walk in that authority. Thank you for joining us today on a stronger faith. If you've experienced spiritual gifts like prophecy or seeing in the spirit, we'd love to hear your story. Just visit a strongerfaith.org/cont and tell us about it. God may be prompting you to share your experience to encourage others just like Chris did. And if you feel led to support what God is doing through this ministry around the world, you can explore giving options at a strongerfaith.org/give. Until next time, we pray that God builds a stronger faith in you and in those you love.