Reviewing the Trent Horn and NeedGod debate Part 1

Welcome to True Christian Ministry, where the word meets the world. Real faith, real people, real truth in Jesus Christ. What's going on? Welcome back to another stream of Word Up Wednesday. And I forgot to push this stream to X. So, we're going to make a slight uh. Give me two seconds. Click on X and send it over there as well. How are we doing today, everybody? We got people tuning in already on uh Tik Tok over here where we're at right now. I got to be careful with the words that I use because actually no, I I should be fine because I'm streaming directly to Tik Tok today. So, we are also on YouTube uh X and Facebook. How are we doing today today, guys? I hope you're all having a blessed and amazing Wednesday. Uh man, two more days and then we're and then I'm gone. I'm out of out of country. Uh headed to Brazil. Thank you all for your prayers lately for my neck. I'm still in some pain today. I'm actually going to the chiropractor after this stream just to make sure everything is okay uh before I head off to this mission trip. Nothing's going to stop me from going, but going to go handle that just to make sure like I said uh because it's lasting a few days and I want to make sure that everything is okay.

Uh, but today we're going to be diving into reviewing the Trent Horn and Need God debate. Um, I have watched it. However, I don't remember every single thing said and so there's some things that I might hear them say today that I'm going to be like, "Oh, yeah, that that reminds me of something I want to bring up." And we're going to try to get through a large portion of it. I'm probably going to skip a lot of Need God stuff. Uh mainly because uh I want to focus in on what Trent says. However, I will have some comments on Need God stuff. Um, I don't think I'm going to really watch his opening statement. I'm not a big fan of the way he approached it and I'll talk about that when when we get there. Um, but I'm going to have the video on screen for people watching on uh Tik Tok as well and also for YouTube and everything. So guys, once I start playing it, please let me know if the sound is coming through to Tik Tok. I know it'll come through here on uh YouTube X and Facebook. But I'm going to give some people a moment to get here and then we're going to start. How's everybody doing in the chat? We got uh 50 people already over here, 40 people over there. Um, what's what's going on with y'all this week? How's your week going? What are you studying right now? Um, tell tell me a little bit something. Give me some encouragement, guys. I've had that before, Mike. It's horrible. Yeah. You know, it makes you think, when was the last time you thank God for your mobility, right? Whenever something is in pain or you're struggling. Um, it's just like, you know, it reminds you to thank God for certain things, right? And so, I thank God for my mobility and I'm reminded how much it can hurt to not have mobility. Um, you're great. Good to go. I'm studying the Bible. The whole thing, George. I know that is you. I'm not surprised that that's your response. Not a specific uh location in there. Someone said, "I didn't watch Trent. I didn't watch it. Trent was mad, but Ryan didn't say anything good." Okay, that's your opinion, I guess. Um, uh, I would say that from what I've seen, um, I don't know if I'd see Trent being mad, but he definitely seemed more hostile than normal, which is unusual for Trent. He can usually be calm and collective. Uh, but then again, I can also be more hostile than normal, so I'm not going to make an assumption on that. Uh, but yeah, I don't think I don't think neededgod.net is good at debating, and I'm not trying to say that as a shot towards him or anything like that. So, I'm not super familiar with his content. Many of you know I don't really watch a lot of people's content. I'm usually focused on what I'm doing. I've got multiple B Bible studies every week. I'm creating content and then I'm also doing things not on the computer, right? I'm not just a social media person. And so I'm not super familiar with his stuff. Um and so watching this debate, I was like, hm, he's not that good at debating. Um so, uh again, not a shot at him, but I definitely don't believe um that he is. But we're going to go into it. We're going to take a look at it. I think we got everybody here now. So, let's start.

We are going to listen to Trent's opening statement mostly in full. I've got it on 1.25 speed and I'm going to be stopping and interjecting. Now, I want to be fair. I actually emailed Trent before doing this and told him I was going to be doing this. I also reached out to Trent saying, "Hey, I know that you uh have invited me to come back onto your show. I'd love to have a conversation about sanctification because here's what I want you want you all to know. I've been saying this and then watching this debate. solidified my stance. I think the better debate to have is one that is not based on hypotheticals, but what the Bible has declared. And so, a lot of the things that we're going to hear today become hypotheticals or judging a man's heart. Rather than doing that, I think it's important for us to say, let's ask the question of what does the Bible declare sanctification is? Because here's my theory, and this is what I emailed Trent. If sanctification is synergistic, that's what the Catholics believe, then you can lose your salvation. If it is monogistic, that means that's what we believe, then you can't lose your salvation. Now, let me define these terms. Monogism means that it is the work of God alone who does sanctification. Your cooperation can determine how comfortable that sanctification is and how smooth things uh go. But regardless, God is getting you to the end. It's monogistic. They believe in what's known as synergism. Meaning, they believe that God is sanctifying you, but you must cooperate with him. And if you do not cooperate with him, you can lose your salvation or uh, you know, whatever terms you want to use. And so I think the better discussion would be what is sanctification? What does the Bible declare sanctification is? Because if you can prove one of those two, then your point on eternal security is there. So, um, I reached out to Trent and told him, "Hey, Trent, just to give you a heads up, I'm going to be doing this review of your debate with Need God. I hope to do it as charitable as possible, and I would love to have that conversation with you." I will let you all know what his response is to that. But with that being said, let's get into this topic. Um, and I believe Trent's going to establish what the criteria is. I'm going to do you guys a favor as well and I'm going to share a little bit of just insight on what debates are and how you should approach them just because I think a lot of people today don't even understand um the format of debate because what they think of as debate is just two people arguing online. That's not debate. And so let's get into it. I'm going to put it on screen here. And so for you guys on YouTube, it's going to be full screen with me off to the side. If you guys want this to be bigger on Tik Tok, if you want to see the Bible better when I put the Bible on screen as well, I would highly recommend you come over to YouTube, watch it there because um the way you're going to see it is going to be much smaller. Okay. All right. Let's go ahead and hit play. Right. All right. So, in today's video, I'm going to show the Bible teaches that a Christian can forsake his salvation. Oh, we missed the point of the actual uh the topic uh thesis statement. >> Welcome to the Council of Trent. Today we are hosting a debate between myself and Ryan from needgod.net. The debate resolution is does the Bible teach that a Christian can lose his salvation despite continuing to have his trust in Christ to save him. So that's important to understand. So the debate resolution means that the actual topic is this. It doesn't matter where you go. Now here's where need God actually makes a terrible error. Not right here, but later in need God's opening statement, he focuses a lot on the Catholic Church. Now, we can agree with what he said or disagree, but you can agree with it, but that's not the argument. The argument is, does the Bible teach a Christian can lose his salvation despite continuing to have his fa trust in Christ? Um, what is the the very very very very final portion of that? to save him to save him. And so that's the topic. That is it. And so Neod should never have even dove into Catholicism. Now, there's this desire sometimes when you're debating someone to attack their view on something. But if they're not taking the affirmative, if they're not if the debate point is not does the Bible teach, I mean, does the uh Catholic Church's teachings of the B Bible are they accurate, etc., etc., then then you go there, right? And so again, you can agree with his points, but he actually makes an error by attacking that. And Trent calls him on it and points out that this argument doesn't work because the argument is mo only about what does the Bible teach. Stick to the Bible, right? And so, uh, just wanted to throw it out there. That's the importance of a debate. One takes the affirmative, one takes the negative. The affirmative's job is to prove that. And so, let's take a look at this debate now. >> Dave him. Here's the format of the debate. Let's go to 15 minutes where it starts. >> All right. So, in today's video, I'm going to show the Bible teaches that a Christian can forsake his salvation despite continuing to trust in Christ to save him. I'll show that Ryan's position is unbiblical, unhistorical, and unworkable. First, Ryan's position is unbiblical. Jesus says in John 15:es 2 and 6, "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up."

>> So, I told you I'm going to be stopping a lot. Plus, I have to because if not, I think YouTube flags it. And so already I actually do like the prompt that it says continuing uh uh can a Christian loses salvation while continuing to trust in Jesus. I would actually knock uh Trent here even on trying to go to John 15 mainly because John 15 is speaking about those that don't continue to trust in Jesus. Right? And so immediately some things if you're debating in these situations you can't interject because you got this full opening statement but you should be taking notes. He goes to John 15 about abiding in Christ. Well, we're going to ask the question is what does it mean to abide in Christ? First John chapter 3 actually tells you what first uh what abiding in Christ is. And so first John chapter 3 going to go to the very end of this. We let the Bible interpret the Bible, right? We don't the thing is if you get to define what abiding in Christ is then you can twist it. But John tells you and John wrote the Gospel of John. So I should listen to John how he defines abiding in Christ. 1 John chapter 3 23. And this is his commandment that we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ and love one another just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God and God in him. And so by John's own confession here to abide in God or abide in Christ is to keep these two commandments to believe and to love. And if you read all of John's letter, you're only capable of loving because you abide in him. Which it's important that we now go to John 15 because so Jesus is talking about bearing fruit. We know that bearing fruit is the love of God. Right? We've talked about this before. It's not good works. It's the love of God. Does the love of God get produced in your life? Let's read it all. I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit. We're going to come back to that. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine. He goes on saying in verse 5, I in the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing. So a couple facts here. Number one, he says if you abide in him, you will bear fruit. So the only way to bear fruit is by abiding in him. That's the most important aspect. I said go back a moment. The very opening is not speaking of Christians. He says, "I am the true vine and my father is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit." This is talking about Israel, the olive tree. Jesus came to bring truth to Israel. Those that accept the Messiah, he will prune so that it may bear more fruit. Those that reject the Messiah will be cut off. Not my opinion. Go to the very opening of the Gospels. We'll pick um Mark today. I always go to a different one when I do this. Go to Mark. What does Jesus I mean, what does John the Baptist say? Actually, let's go to Matthew only because I want it to be a little bit more clear for the sake of time rather than us trying to uh go deep into it. John says, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance." Speaking to the Israelites, "And do not presume to say to yourselves that we have Abraham as our father. For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Later, just a couple verses later, his winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather the wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. And so Jesus came to prune the olive tree that is Israel. Jesus came to prune the olive tree that is Israel. And so those that do not believe and bear fruit will be cut off. That's why I said pay attention to what John 15 actually says. Look at this moment right here. Every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes that it may bear more fruit. And so it's the father that causes more fruit to be born. It is the father who causes fruit. So fruit is not something you bear on your own. In fact, we just read it. He says, "Apart from me, you can't bear fruit. It is only those in the vine." So let's not spend too much time on on each one of these verses, by the way. Just going to touch on them as we go past them. But John 15 is not talking about those that are in Christ being uh cut off and losing salvation, but rather it's about the judgment that comes to Israel through the work of the Messiah. FYI, it is because of that judgment that you're able to be grafted in. FYI, it is because they are because of their rejection upon uh the Messiah that we're able to be saved. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.

>> Praise Jesus, baby. All right. And so that's the first point. Now, I saw some comments from somebody over here. Um, he's talking about the wheat and the tears. I agree. The wheat are truly believers. The tears are not. Those who continue to sin will be cut off from eternal life. I I would like to unpack that a little bit. Uh, but I'm sure that you think that you're righteous. Let me just also preface something. Whenever we have this conversation, remember the standard is Christ and not yourself. And if the standard is Christ, you fall short of that every day. I dare one of you to tell me that you hit the standard today. And if you didn't hit the standard today, why is your sin less as bad as someone else's? Do you know all it took to fall from from righteousness in the garden was to disobey God one time, to eat one fruit, to dis to not believe God's word for one moment? Yet, how many times in a day do you do that? How many times in a day do you do that? Be careful. As the Apostle Paul writes in Romans 14, blessed is the man who does not judge himself by what he approves. Because the funny thing is, you'll hear someone point out saying, if you continue in sin, you'll lose your salvation. But yeah, you continue in gluttony. You continue in laziness. You continue in in gossip. You continue in slander. You continue in not honoring God with all your heart, mind, soul, and might, the greatest commandment. Did you wake up and the first thing you did is fall to your knees and thank God for this day? If the first thing you did was pick up your phone, you just you have a sin of idolatry. If the first thing you did was not thank God for the very breath that you draw, then you broke the greatest commandment. And just on schedule, that person that commented that commented saying, "I don't sin." Always pay attention. As soon as you push the first domino over, the truth comes out. The truth comes out. No, we are not making an excuse for sin. But let us make it clear that if any of you do not understand the gravity of sin, then you will never be able to look at others, right? Because you will always look at others as more as worse sinners than you are. Why do you think Paul says, "I am chief of sinners?" Why do you think everyone who Jesus accepts in the gospels come to him saying, "Have mercy on me a sinner. I am not worthy." Pay attention to every single person that Jesus commends or applauds or lifts up. They came to him in broken humility, acknowledging their filth and recognizing their brokenness. Pay attention to how many of these Christians today, these heretics that'll sit here saying, "I don't sin anymore." And they always like to twist this. By the way, whenever you guys have this conversation, be careful. What they do is they think what you're saying is, "Therefore, go sin all day." as if what myself or anyone else is saying is, "Yeah, have fun sinning, guys." No. As first John says, I write this to you so that you may not sin. But if you do sin, you have an advocate with the father, Christ Jesus the righteous. Notice that first line. I write this so that you may not sin. I write this so that you may not sin. Ladies and gentlemen, we don't want anyone to sin. We pray that you do not sin. But the reality is if you do not understand the gravity of sin, then you do not understand the depth of his grace. Because again, the greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, all your mind, all your might, all your soul. That's Jesus's words. The greatest commandment. How many of you honestly will tell me that you don't break that? All your heart. Meaning every moment of the day your heart is centered on Christ. All your mind y'all don't have no thoughts that you rebuke yourself and say get away from me thoughts be gone thoughts any any thoughts all your strength and so we should understand matter of fact I love Job. Let's go to Job real quick because we're going to go over in this episode. Job was more blameless than all of you. You know how I know? Because God testified to his blamelessness. And yet Job still said, "Though I am in the right, my own mouth would condemn me. Though I am blameless, he would prove me perverse." Wait a minute. Though I am blameless, he would still be able to prove me perverse. Job recognized that even in walking blamelessly, the distance between me and God is this far. And what's funny is the very people that will sit here and try to condemn you live lives that ain't even that glorifying to God. They just sit online and do this all day. I don't They spend more time online than in the mission field. If you really loved God the way you say you did, why aren't you in the mission field? Why are you sitting online all day? This is them. I'm more righteous than you. And I'm more righteous than you. And look at you, you dirty sinner. Look at you. Spend all that time looking down on others. Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. I thank God I'm not like these sinners. I thank God I'm not like that guy Mike. I thank God I'm not like these people over here. I thank God I'm not like them. I do this and I do that. Yet, who was the man that Jesus said goes home justified? Who was the man? The one who fell to his face and said, "Have mercy on me, a sinner." Let's keep going with the debate. And they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned. These branches do not represent false believers because Jesus speaks of the damned as those who do not abide or remain in him. He's talking about true believers at some point fail to remain connected to him.

>> So Trent makes an assertion here with no actual evidence. He says that he's talking about true believers. Never once does it actually say that in in regards to Jesus's parables. He actually always separates true believers from false believers. Wheat and tears, goat and sheep, uh weeds and wheat. Never do you see him actually say the sheep became the goat. And so I would if I was doing this debate and I was able to do a rebuttal, I would say, "Trent, can you show me one time where Jesus explicitly speaks of a sheep that becomes a goat, a wheat that becomes a weed, a uh uh um gosh, I'm I'm brain farting on another example, but regardless, those two work. Show me one where they are. We actually never see that those that are cut off are for unbelief. In the wilderness, those that fall short are unbelief." And so that we agree. By the way, even people who believe in eternal security believe what? Unbelief is the problem. Lack of trust. And I want to make this clear biblically. Unbelief is not speaking about um atheism. In the Bible, when the word unbelief is said, it's not saying that these people suddenly stop believing God exists, but rather they stop trusting God or don't trust God. They trust in themselves. Let's keep going. Um, hey, we I know we got some trolls in here that are that are distracting the stream. They don't even follow me and so they're just here to preach sinless perfection and confuse young Christians. So, ladies and gentlemen, you're blocked. I do not care. And yes, you can try and use that against me as an insult, but I care about the young Christians in the chat that can be confused by serpents and wolves that prowl uh like a lion seeking their prey to destroy. And so, blocked that one. Does the other one want to keep trying to You can be here. The minute you start trying to deceive others, you are gone. I am not here for you to proitize in my liveream. You're upset people don't listen to you. So you want to come in here where people are gathered and bring confusion. Let's keep going.

>> And are damned as a result. Jesus even warns people who claim they will be saved because they call on his name or trusted him but engaged in grave sin. He says in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven." And in Matthew 10:20,

>> Oh, let's stop. And so again, if I was doing this debate, I would write that down. So, is Matthew 7 speaking of those who actually believe? I would argue it does not. And I think the context of this actually makes it clear. The entire sermon on the mount is directed to a group of Israelites. And in this sermon on the mount, he actually is rebuking the self-righteous Israelites often. In the very first chapter of the sermon on the mount, he tells them all about how if they think they haven't sinned, they truly have. If you think you haven't committed adultery, you have in your heart. If you think you haven't committed murder, you have in your heart. And so he ends the sermon on the mount by first saying be careful how you judge because you yourself are a sinner as well. Then he warns of false prophets who bear false fruit, right? He talks about true believers bear good fruit. False believers bear false fruit. Then he goes into this not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the he kingdom of heaven. Well, the eternal security position is not just saying Lord Lord is enough. That's a verbal confession. Even in Romans chapter 10:9, it doesn't just say if you confess Jesus with your mouth, you will be saved. It says, "And believe in your heart." Now, to Cassandra's point, the will of the father, well, it's not actually what you think it is. Um, you're absolutely wrong. And so, unless you can provide a verse that actually proves what you're saying, I can provide a verse that says you're wrong. John 640, for this is the will of my father that everyone who looks on the son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. Prior to that, you want to talk about the will of the father. Verse 39, and this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me. And so, actually, the will of the father is to lose none who the father has given to the son. Not oh well, they don't act perfectly, you get lost. And the will of the father is those that believe in him. Again, the scriptures harmonize and the scriptures stand toe-to-toe together while you have to twist scripture and make up your own verses. Now, let's go back over to Matthew 7. He says, "On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons?" Ladies and gentlemen, let's just go back to that parable of the of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Jesus says, "This man goes into the temple." Let's read it together. And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought to Oh, no, not that one. Not that one. Hold on. Luke 18. Sorry. I think it's the second parable in Luke 18. I apologize, guys. Here we go. He also told this parable to some I want Cassandra to hear this. The sinless perfectionist to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous. So what's the context here? The the parable is is meant to rebuke the people who trust in themselves that they are righteous. And what does the self idea of my own righteousness create? And therefore they do what? and treated others with contempt. Doesn't that sound familiar? Doesn't that sound familiar? As they walk around saying, "Well, I don't thin. You do. Look at you. Look down on you." All right, keep going. Two men went up in the temple to pray. So, both men confess verbally, "God." Matthew 7. Many will say to me, "Lord, Lord." Well, let's look at the Pharisees, Lord, Lord. The Pharisees standing by himself prayed. Also, he's praying to God. God, I thank you that I'm not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes that all that I can get. Wait a minute. Go back. Matthew 7 says what many will say, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do mighty works in your name? Go back to the parable. We're going to bounce back and forth if we have to. He said, "Lord God, here's what I do." Interesting. It's almost like this Pharisee is the exact person Jesus is warning about in Matthew chapter 7. Now look at the man who gets justified. But the tax collector standing far off would not even lift up his head eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified." Wow. Go back to Matthew 7. You know the person who will stand before God and he does say, "I know you." The one who doesn't say, "I've done this. I've done that. I've done this. I've done that." But falls to his face. Be merciful to me, Lord. Go to the thief on the cross. One thief said, "Hey, get us off of these crosses. Lord, get us off of these crosses." He didn't recognize his own guilt. He just wanted to use God for his benefit. God, if you can get off of this cross, then take me with you. The other one said, "You fool. We deserve it. He does not. Remember me in your kingdom." One of them wants God's blessings like he deserves it. The other one says, "No, no, no. I I deserve this cross, Lord. And I would never deny that fact. I absolutely deserve this cross, Lord. Remember me when you enter your kingdom. The sinless perfectionists though, cuz they're also here, even though we're not talking about that topic, they think, "I don't deserve that cross. I live righteously." Let's keep going. I think Cassandra could learn a lot from here, but she is a distraction. So, she's going to be muted. She's probably not going to stay to listen, which will prove my point that she's not here to listen. She She's here to lie and deceive. And so, I doubt she'll stay, but you are muted. So, you can continue to stay and listen as we go through the scriptures. Okay, let's keep going. Everybody understand Matthew 7 right now? How Matthew 7 clearly is not talking about true believers that have lost their salvation. Let's keep going.

>> He who endures to the end will be saved.

>> Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're not about to let him pass. Just say that. Go back to what is it right here?

>> Will be saved. And so what Trent's doing is a lot of verse throwing. And so I get this my thing about debates just verse verse verse for verse. Let's walk it out. Let's open it up. But let me hear what he says.

>> 22. He who endures to the end will be saved.

>> So he just randomly says Matthew 10:22. Uh, he who endures to the end will be saved. Let's go to Matthew 10:22 and see what he's quoting. Persecution will come. Behold, I am sending you out as sheeps in the midst of wolves. So be wise as serpents and innocence of innocent as doves. Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and fogg you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. when they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say, excuse me, will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the spirit of your father speaking through you. So, let me get this straight. You think that these men will endure on their own, but yet they can't even speak on their own? Wait, wait. Are we about to try and act like the endurance is on their own when Jesus just said, "You won't even speak on your own? Let's keep going. Brother will deliver brother over the over to death. And the father his child and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. H is this saying that in order for you to be saved, you must endure? or is it describing those who endure to the end are those who believe? Let's go to a parable that actually helps us understand this. By the way, I do this a lot. We use parables to understand what we see in scripture. And so, what's a great parable? Matthew 13, parable of the sewer. In the parable of the sewer, he describes multiple seeds that land. And these are different types of people that put their that that hear the word and how they respond to it. He says in verse 20, "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself." Ladies and gentlemen, would you agree that Judas heard the word, received it with joy, and sprouted up really quickly, but has no root in himself? I would, but endures for a while, has a little bit of endurance, but when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. Wait a minute. Jesus is warning about persecution and tribulation and says the one who endures will be saved. In the parable of the sewer, he tells you that persecution and tribulation will literally demonstrate where true faith and false faith is. And it's not because of how strong you are, but because whether or not the seed took root. Ironically, the rest of the passage describes the believer, and that's the one who bears fruit and yields. So true faith will endure, not you must endure. Ladies and gentlemen, if you try to endure on your own accord, you will fall away. Let me tell you, a grown man can have faith in something, but if he doesn't truly trust in it, he will crack under the greatest pressures. He will crack under the greatest pressures. Unless you do what? Have your faith and trust in something of value and importance. Let's keep going.

>> Not merely he who trusts in Christ. John,

>> See that little subtle statement, the one who endures will be saved. Not merely one who trusts in Christ. It is by trusting in Christ that you can endure. So if I take a false believer and I take a true believer and I say, I'm going to behead you unless you con unless you recant Christ. If one truly trusts Christ, take my head for he is the God of the living and the dead and those that die in Christ will live again. Take my head. If I tell someone who has vain faith, I will take your head unless you recant Christ, he will recant Christ because he doesn't truly trust in Christ. If my family is suffering, but I trust in Christ, I know better things are to come. If if my family is threatened, but I trust Christ, I know better things are to come. And so, it is only by actually trusting in Christ that you can endure. Period. Show me someone who can endure and not be trusting in Christ. We have it easy in America. In America, uh, you know, you can confess Christ and things actually can get better. Those other countries where you confess Christ and now your village might have people storm into it at night, lock you into a building, kill your children, rape your wife and and and kidnap your family members, there is a there is a cost to count. You only do that if you truly trust in Christ. What do we mean by trust in Christ? I trust that though I shall die, I will live. He said, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, he will live." And so, no offense to Trent, but to say the one who endorsed it, I want to actually play this because this is actually so uh this is egregious of a statement. This is why the debate doesn't need to be on hypothetical situations. Let's talk about what does it mean to trust in Christ

>> to the end will be saved. Not merely he who trusts in Christ.

>> Not merely he who trusts in Christ. Show me how there's any way to endure outside of trusting in Christ. If we're alive during a tribulation and I have no food and I'm starving, do you know how I endure that? By trusting that my God will be sufficient. that he will supply my needs. If I'm starving because there's no food to eat, there's no clean water to drink, there is absolutely nothing for comfort, do you know how I survive? By trusting in Christ. It's the only way. And yet the idea like, oh no, no, let's keep going. John 3:36 even says, "He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."

>> Let's Let's go to John 3:36. I've seen people try to use this before as well. John 3:36. We must obey the son to be saved. Keep reading. Let's read the whole thing. First of all, that's not Jesus speaking, which is what make that important. When Jesus speaks prior, it is for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned. That's Jesus's words. Later, John the Baptist talks about Christ. And he says, "You yourselves bear witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have let me go down a little bit further because we want that part." Okay, here we go. The father loves the son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the son has eternal life. Whoever does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. So to be saved is to believe. So then what's the contrast here? Did Jesus request that you believe or did Jesus give the instruction to believe? The gospel call is not a hey if you want to believe. No, we just read it earlier in this gospel. Whoever does not believe is condemned. Jesus saying believe is not just a request. It is a command. Believe in the gospel. And so if you don't obey the son when he calls you to believe in him, you will die in your sins. This is absolutely true. Hold on guys. Sorry about that, guys. And so, no, you can't just, it's funny, you can't just take this part, whoever does not obey the sun shall see shall not see life, and leave this part out. That's disingenuous. It's absolutely disingenuous. The contrast is believe as he has called you to do or don't obey him. Believe as he has called you to do or don't obey his call. Ladies and gentlemen, the reason you believe is because Christ told you to. Let's keep going and let's keep watching. Saying, "I trust in Christ so I'll be saved." is like saying, "I trust my wife so our marriage is healthy." your wife won't leave you, but if you commit adultery, you have left her with your actions, even if you claim fidelity with your words.

>> So, what what what Trent's actually doing is actually making the case to what many of us actually believe. Um, because what Trent is saying is just saying you trust your wife. And I agree, just saying you trust Jesus is not going to save you. I already said it before. Romans chapter 10 doesn't just say, "Confess with your mouth, you will be saved." It says, "If you confess with your mouth and believe, confess and believe." And so, honestly, I think that Trent is attacking a very thing that we agree is false. If a man says he has, Ready? Tell me if I can take James chapter 2 and make it fit perfectly into a marriage. If a man say he love his wife but then cheats on her, is that can that love be real? Therefore, love without action is fake love. Funny how I can fit that literally in and it still rolls seamlessly. It's a dead love. It's not real love. Cuz love is not a verbal thing. Love is an action. Faith is not a verbal thing. Faith is an action. I know my wife loves me because of her actions, not her words. I know that uh someone trusts me by their actions and not their words. Right? Think about the the the famous trust fall that you did back in school or some type of seminar where you're talking about trust. What is the best thing that I mean what does the trust fall do? It demonstrates if you actually trust someone, what will you do? You'll fall. I can get on the cliff, the little edge of the table, and I can say, "Hey, I trust you, Jonah, to catch me." But if I'm not willing to fall back into your arms, does that verbal trust mean anything? Is it genuine trust? It is only genuine trust if I fall back into his arms and let him catch me. Likewise, a man may say he trusts God, but yet his actions say the opposite. We agree. Those who believe in eternal security do not disagree with that. Now, we know that only God knows if someone truly trusts because it is only God who can seek out the heart of man and know the heart of man. And so, the way I can make my judgment on whether or not someone trusts in God is by looking at their actions. But God doesn't need to see your actions if he knows your heart. For God does not judge a man by the outward, but he knows the man's heart. He does not look at man as we do. Let's keep going.

>> And likewise, Christ will never leave us. But we're free to forsake him through our actions, even if we claim fidelity with our words.

>> I disagree with that, but I want him to unpack that because if not, I can make this entire two-hour episode just talking about those that we're free to uh forsake him. Uh, because nothing in scripture portrays this when we talk about what is sanctification. Deuteronomy 30, I will give them a heart to love me. Uh Ezekiel 36, I will place my spirit in them and cause them to walk in my ways. Uh John 6, will you walk away as well? to whom shall we go? Jesus says, "And I chose you. You didn't choose me." And so biblically, those who Christ regenerates, who gives a spirit to, who gives who brings them into the fold, they have a change in their heart, they cannot forsake Christ, just as I cannot forsake oxygen. Um, no matter how much I try to hold my breath, I will I will break my own willpower and gasp for air. So, let's keep going.

>> Other apostolic authors make this same point. 1 John 2 4-5 says, "He who says I know him but disobeys his commandments is a liar."

>> Not man. 1 John 2 says, "He who says he knows him but disobeys his commandments is a liar." Do I have an applause button? I wish I did. I think I do. That's a shame. Come on. I don't got an applause button. Oh. It's a little late, but I hope that the the effect still counts here. I agree. Someone who says, "I love God," but doesn't love God, like that's foolish. Now, don't forget though, this is where the bait and switch happens. Many people say that and then try to create new commandments. We just read it earlier. What does John say the commandments are? We don't get to read 1 John 2. Let's go there real quick. 1 John 2:22, I believe it is. Uh, actually, it's a little bit before that. 1 John 2 right here. And by this we know that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. Whoever says I know him but does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. People like to take that and and flip it around and act like that means and then fill in the blank. Read the whole thing. First of all, John says in verse three, "And by this we know." What does that mean? That this is evidence. If I say by this we know it's a car, that it has an engine. Am I saying that in order for this to become a car you have to add an engine to it? No. Because if you just add

An engine to a cardboard box, it's not a car. If you add an engine to a horse carcass, it's not a car. And so adding an engine doesn't make it a car. But I can say that all cars have an engine. And so I can describe all cars as having an engine. Adding an engine doesn't make it a car, though.

I can describe all human beings breathe oxygen. But just because something breathes oxygen doesn't make it a human being. Likewise, by this we know, this is a description, that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments. By that understanding, keeping his commandments doesn't make you a Christian. However, if you keep his commandments, I at least know that that's what Christians look like. So, I can see by this we know. That's why he goes on saying, "Whoever says I know him but does not is a liar. Whoever says they have a car but there's no engine, that's a liar. Whoever says I'm a human but does not breathe oxygen, that's a liar." And so if you don't meet the description of a Christian, I can go ahead and say you're not a Christian. But just because the description is something that is descriptive of a Christian, it doesn't mean you can go ahead and build your own version of a Christian by taking the descriptions and building it out. A car has an engine and it has four wheels. You can't build a car with just an engine and four wheels. You need more than that. Jennifer said, "Me standing in a car doesn't make me a car. Me standing in the garage doesn't make me a car." Amen. I can say the car is in the cars go in the garage doesn't mean everything in the garage is a car. But let's continue uh with what he's saying.

"And the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him." I agree. Self evaluation, Trent. By this we can be sure that we are in him. Brother Trent, did you did you read my book? Maybe you missed the part that we're talking about eternal security, but I said the same thing, brother. I did. Paul writes in Titus 1:16, "They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed." So Trent's argument is a is honestly Trent's argument is a great argument that verbal faith does not save and we would agree with him. So far Trent has only proven one thing for me that the Bible confirms what I have been preaching now for several years that verbal faith alone is not genuine faith and that those who truly trust in God will have a transformation in their heart, a transformation in their life and they will live a faithful life. Amen. None of this though proves that. But if someone born again of the spirit doesn't act the certain way that I've decreed, he will lose his salvation.

"Once again, you can trust in Christ but deny Christ through evil." See, there's the bait and switch. You can trust in Christ, but then deny him with your actions. That's not what it said. It didn't say. So, he's quoting Timothy. I mean, Titus Trent, if you watch this, please know that I'm trying to do this charitably. I'm not trying to say you're intentionally twisting it. Um, it's really just you're just it's coming off that way. But let's be very honest, brother. Please listen to me. It literally says they profess to know God. But what did you just read from John? If someone says, "I know God," but does fill in the blank, he's a liar. That's Trent's own confession. He just verbally said it. He literally read 1 John 2 that says, "If someone says, 'I know God,' but then walks a certain way," he didn't lose anything. He's a liar. Likewise, these people profess to know God, but deny him by their works. Their works prove that they're liars and they do not know him. I'm sorry, but Trent is not this argument is not a great argument against the position of eternal security. It it's a great argument against the free gracer type of people that believe as long as you verbally say a prayer, then you're you're going to heaven no matter what. It's a slam dunk argument against them cuz I would use the same arguments against them. Like, oh, you think someone could just say a prayer and they're forever saved and they'll never go to hell. But the Bible talks about people who profess to know God but don't really know him in their actions. So I I agree. I agree that there are many liars amongst us. That's why it blows my mind that he read first John when John calls them liars and yet he has the audacity to talk about um people losing their salvation. Remember Matthew 7, he also quoted where Jesus says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." In John chapter 10, what does Jesus say to his sheep? What does Jesus say? He says it twice, but we're going to go to one specific section of it. He says, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish. How can that which will never perish perish? And no one will snatch them out of my hand." Ladies and gentlemen, you are included in the no one. You are included in the no one. No one will snatch them out of my hand. And if you know anything about a shepherd, a shepherd does not respect the free will of his sheep. Because that's one I'll hear often. God doesn't God respects your free will to walk away. What kind of shepherd do you understand? Tell me if I'm wrong. Do y'all know a shepherd that will respect the free will of his sheep? Hey Timmy, why do your sheep keep leaving and you don't chase him down? If he does not want to be here, then I shall let him go for I respect his free will. That's stupid. You're not going to be a shepherd for long, bro. No one can snatch them out of his hand. Ironically, he's quoting, not ironically, coincidentally, he's quoting Isaiah 42 right here. Is it 42 or 43? I think it's 43. Isaiah 43 where it says, "No one can snatch him out of my hand. Henceforth I am he and there is none who can deliver from my hand." But what's the next line? I work and who can turn it back? Wait a minute. Who's doing a mighty work in you? God. I know he's going to quote Philippians 2 later on. So, we'll wait till he does that to go there. Let's keep going.

"Deeds. Paul also says in 2 Timothy 2:1-13, 'If we endure, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful.'" Not >> finish it, Trent. >> The we in both clauses. That's upsetting. He didn't finish that. He didn't finish that. Oh man. Why didn't you finish that, Trent? Why didn't you finish that, Trent? Go back. Go back. If we have died with him, we will also live with him. That's the first. To die with Christ is to be in Christ, being baptized by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you have been baptized with Christ, and you will rise with Christ. If we endure, we will also reign with him. Amen. And we already talked about it. True faith endures. So let's just go with that for a second and we'll keep going. If we deny him, he will also deny us. And so failing to endure means denying Christ. Those who deny Christ do not trust in Christ. Amen. Again, we agree. If we are faithless, he remains faithful. Finish the verse. For he cannot deny himself. Those that are in Christ are one with Christ. and he cannot deny himself. So his argument is someone who has true faith, though he might be faithless in a moment and fall to a sin, he can leave Christ and be forsaken. But Paul here says, "No, no, no, no, no." What's that one guy on on social media be like, "No." Well, why why would you think that? If you be in Christ, even in your faithlessness, Christ remains faithful. Let's see what's an example. Hm. There's Peter walking on water who took his eyes off Christ and began to sink. And Jesus reached into the water and lifted him out of the water even though he was faithless. Now, Peter didn't deny Christ and say, "No, I'm not getting off the boat." Jesus said, "Come here, Peter." And Peter didn't say, "No, I'm scared. I can't get off the boat." That would be denying Christ. I don't trust you. I'm not going to get into the water and walk. I'm I'm trust you. Peter stepped out on faith and even in faithlessness, Christ reached down into the water and pulled him up. So, let's keep going. It refers to true believers. And while God never fails in what he promises, he allows us to freely reject him. Jesus's >> par wait. I need to hear that explanation from the beginning cuz I'm I'm I'm a I'm a little confused on how he just tried to do that. Let me just real quick >> promises he allows us to freely reject him. >> Oops, I didn't go back far enough. Where we at? We're at 3:23. So, let's go back to disobedient, unfit for any good deed. Once again, you can trust in Christ, but deny Christ through evil deeds. Paul also says in 2 Timothy 2:1-13, "If we endure, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful." Notice the we in both clauses. It refers to true believers. And while God never fails in what he promises, he allows us to freely reject him.

"No, wait, wait. So he's saying that the we for we deny him he will also deny us means that Paul is describing true believers and so therefore God will let us reject him. But then why does verse 13 say if we are faithless he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself. If verse 13 is saying even in your brokenness Christ will not deny us he will remain faithful. Why you think that he's saying therefore he will let you? I would argue contextually here that what we see in this moment is saying if you deny him you lose your salv I mean you're not saved. If you deny him you're not saved. You have no salvation now. Actually you know what I see what he's doing here. I see what he's doing. Let me adjust myself a little bit. Get a little com. I see what he's doing. Now my brain is working through this live by the way. One thing that I think that a lot of people do when they approach these texts is they assume every single person reading these letters is a true believer. I think that they think every single person reading these letters is a true believer and that the apostles do not think that people reading these letters or that will hear these letters could possibly be vain believers. I don't understand how they think that. Because they often will say, "If you can't lose your salvation, why are there warnings in the text?" Well, because the letters aren't going to individuals by themselves. They're being said, "Read this to everyone." Why do you think First Corinthians 15 says, "Unless you believed in vain." Why do you think 2 Corinthians says, "Test yourself and examine yourself so that you know if you are of the faith." Ladies and gentlemen, we have uh 280 people watching this right now. I know for a fact that there are people watching this that don't truly trust in Christ that say they have tr faith. And so, no, I would never tell you all, you're definitely saved. I would say to you something similar. If you truly trust in Christ, you shall be saved. If you deny Christ, you will die in your sins. But Mike, you just told that to a bunch of people who say they trust in Christ. I don't know if they truly trust in Christ. Why would I ever write such a letter or make such a video and give people false assurance? when writing to an entire church, why would I assume everybody that's going to hear this letter is of true faith? And so if I'm speaking to a large 280 people right now and I tell you if, notice the if. See, he emphasized on the we, he didn't know emphasized on the if. If we have died with him, we will also live with him. So if we have died with him, we will also live with him. Got it? We agree? If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. The emphasis shouldn't be on the wei. It should be on the if. Cuz the if is establishing the actual way that we're approaching this. And FYI, this is more of a creed that and many scholars agree with this that the way Paul structured this that he's actually sharing a creed. That's why in verse 11, it starts by saying the saying is trustworthy. And so Paul's not speaking about this as like he's delivering these words specifically for Timothy or so that you know Timothy hear this. Let's go back and actually read the the section here. He tells people, "You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trusted to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him." And then he goes into this athlete imagery as well. And so he's telling Timothy that he should be focused on the mission. Don't let the world distract you. We agree. Remember Jesus Christ risen from the dead, the offspring of David as preached in my gospel for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of god is not bound. So I'm locked up, but the word of God can't be stopped. Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect. Interesting he uses that term endure that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy. Four, if we have died with him, we also live with him. If we endure, we also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful. For he cannot deny himself. Now flows flows flows perfectly. If you think that Paul is suddenly jumping and saying, "So I might lose my salvation." He said, "I endure everything for the sake of the gospel. Let's keep going though because this this this episode we're never going to get through this entire debate. I'm still in his opening statement.

"Jesus's parable about the unforgiving servant also clearly shows salvation can be lost through grave sin. Matthew 18, Jesus tells the story of the servant who was mercifully forgiven by the king in a large matter, but refused to forgive his fellow servant in a much smaller matter. The king threw the servant in jail. And Jesus told his audience, 'So also my heavenly father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.' in Matthew 6:15."

Stop. So, I've seen him and others try and do this as well. Um, he's trying to say that the parable of the unforgiving servant is about losing salvation. And so, I'm going to go full screen because I really want to talk to you'all about this for a second because this is actually something I see so often and I have to make the argument for it because I truly believe that this happens so often that it actually messes up the way people read scripture. Um, I don't have to go full, excuse me, I don't have to go full screen on TikTok because my head's above it. All right, listen. I am not some hyper dispensationalist, so I'm not separating the New Testament at all. But it is important to understand the audience of who Jesus is speaking to and the point of when it's being spoken. Jesus is speaking to the Israelites who Jesus came to bring judgment against. For it is their rejection of the gospel that brings salvation to the Gentiles. And so many of his parables are speaking about Israelites, true Israelites and false Israelites. That's not my opinion. That's Jeremiah 9, that there are many Israelites who are not true Israelites. That's Romans 9. Not all who are Israelites of the flesh belong to Abraham. And so Jesus is warning the Israelites who have constantly received forgiveness from God and yet have turned around and not shown forgiveness that they too will be snatched out of this world. That's what we see here. I will separate the goat from the sheep. All of you claim to follow God, but I didn't find the Pharisees with the broken. I didn't find the Sadducees with the broken. I didn't find the scribes with the broken. I never knew you. Many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, because a lot of the Jews claimed to know God, and yet they weren't actually following God. They were just walking around as whitewashed tombs. The weeds and the wheat grow together. True Israelites and false Israelites grow together. And the angel said, "Should we go snatch him up?" He said, "No, lest you uproot one of the wheat." Likewise, yes, the parable of the unforgiving servant is very important because Israel has been God's people and God has demonstrated grace over and over and over again to them. And so, let's just look at this same parable, but look at it properly through the lens of Israel. You, Israel, have repented so many times for all the different times that you have failed. You are always coming to God saying, "Forgive us." And yet you turn around and you judge others like they don't deserve forgiveness. This is Matthew 7. Judge not least you be judged. You run to the temple to do your sacrifice and beg God for forgiveness. But then you treat the woman who's caught in adultery like she's condemned. You want forgiveness from God. But yet when the woman of the city comes in to wipe my feet, you look at her like she doesn't doesn't deserve to be there. This is not if you are in Christ and you don't forgive, you'll lose your salvation. Because the very reason we forgive is because of God's spirit in us. That we don't forgive because we're good people. We are wretched people. The only reason I forgive people the way I forgive people is because I have been forgiven by a gracious God and his spirit resides in me. And I don't know how to not forgive someone because I deserve the wrath of God. and since grace has been given to me, I will give grace. But that's not what to to to twist it as if that's what that's what a lot of people do. A lot of people will take Jesus's words to the Jews, specifically condemning the Jews about what the Jews were going through, and then say that's applied to the believers in the new covenant. And it completely misses the separation between the covenants. And yes, there is a separation. This is biblical whether you like it or not. Deuteron, I told you to come here eventually. Deuteronomy 29. But to this day, the Lord has not given you a heart to understand their eyes to see your ears hear. Those in the old covenant were blinded by their own pride and their hard hearts. Deuteronomy 30. He's going to fix that. This is what happens at Pentecost. And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul that you may live. So why do I love God? Because what he's done to me. We love because he loved first. I don't love God to get saved. I love God because God loved me enough to die for me while I was a sinner and to regenerate me by his Holy Spirit and wash me clean. That's why I love God. If any of you think that you love God because you love God, you don't know what you're talking about. That's what the scriptures declare. The reason I love God is because of what he's done, not me. This is the truth of the reality. And I love what George pointed out that Jesus is often talking to corporate Israel as well. Let's keep going, though. Jesus makes the teaching even plainer. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses. Notice that the servant's debt is first forgiven by the king. And then when he refuses to forgive his fellow servant, the king revokes his forgiveness. We can be forgiven by God. And >> see, he taking a parable given to the Israelites for their that lack of grace that they have demonstrated and flipping it into the Christian. Again, this is the reality for the for the Israel corporate entity. They had constantly sought out. Matter of fact, I don't even have to I don't even have to try and explain this. This is what Romans 2 literally explains. I'll let I'll let the Apostle Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit give it to you. Therefore, you have no excuse, oh man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on one another, you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, oh man, you who judge those who practice such things, and yet do them yourselves, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance, but because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works. To those who by patience and welloing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being for who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek. But the glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. That's what the Jews were known for doing. He goes on saying, "You who boast in the law, dishonor God by breaking the law. For it is written, the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." By the way, Romans 2 is not talking about how to get saved. Romans 2 is establishing why we need salvation. Paul is rebuking both Jew and Gentile in Romans 2 and 3. He starts by rebuking the Jew. That you think you're righteous because you think you keep the law, but the point of the law was to point out your own unrighteousness. Meanwhile, while you need forgiveness from God, you look down on others. You judge others by the very law that you break. Romans 2 in a nutshell. I continue and become unforgiven, losing our salvation possibly permanently. He's adding that part that's not in the text.

"If we don't repent of our sin and return to God, St. Paul clearly teaches salvation is dependent on us not forsaking it and describes it in conditional terms. He says in Colossians 1 that God wants to present us as quote irreroachable before him provided that you continue in the faith."

Continue in the faith actually just goes in line with what we actually believe. And I would argue that um the actual uh thesis of the debate actually says that it says does the Bible teach that a person can lose their salvation while they continue to trust Jesus. So it's in the it's so he's actually arguing um contrary to the thesis statement stable and steadfast not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard.

"Yes. In 1 Corinthians 15:2, Paul speaks of the gospel, quote, 'by which you are saved if you hold it fast, unless you believed in vain.'"

Yes. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul says, "While athletes compete for a perishable crown, he competes for an imperishable crown." He says in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others, I myself should be disqualified."

Yeah. So, I actually addressed this when I was on my discussion with Trent. um pointing to the text clearly is demonstrating that Paul is speaking about his his qualifications as the apostle. Now, he makes the argument that it's not because he says it's the same crown he talks about in his letter to Timothy and that that crown somehow is related to salvation. But the text of 1 Corinthians 9 is pretty clear. Uh he opens it up by saying, "I surrender my rights uh as an apostle." He literally says, "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle?" He then goes on saying that they have a right to make a living from the gospel. But then says, "But I have made no use of any of these, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision." Watch what he says. For I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of my grounds for boasting. For if I preach the gospel that gives me no grounds for boasting, for necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel. For I do this of my for if I do this of my own will, I have a reward. But if not my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. Then what is my reward? that preaching the gospel, I may present the gospel free of charge so as to make no so as not to make full use of my rights of the gospel. He then goes into explaining that he does all things so that others may be saved. That's all he cares about. And then he literally goes on about what we should be focusing on about receiving a reward. And then he says, "But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others, I myself should be disqualified." For someone to try and tell me that this means that Paul is worried about losing his salvation, it just doesn't fit the context whatsoever. And as I even quoted to Trent when I was on his podcast, why would the same Paul who says this think be worried about losing his salvation? For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. He literally is saying that if it was possible, I wish I could be accursed for their salvation. It's not possible, by the way. So, I'm trying to make this quicker, by the way, because we're moving really slow. Now, Ryan says this verse refers to Paul being disqualified from apostolic ministry or heavenly rewards, not salvation. But this does not explain the passage. First, I mean, we just looked at the passage together. It explains the passage unless you try to pull something from another passage and try to correlate them and make it explain the passage. This is not how we execute the text. Right? Context matters. It it really does matter. And right like so, everyone else can open up your Bible. 1 Corinthians 9 is clearly right written about his rights as an apostle and so and and even more context. So if you want to get context for a passage before you jump to another book you should jump to further evidence in those letters right the Corinthian letters. What else is happening in the Corinthian church there are false apostles rising up and those false apostles are doing what? trying to discredit Paul because in the second letter to the Corinthians, so staying at least within the same uh letter collection, I think it's chapter 10, Paul has to defend his ministry. And so, right, let's keep going. Word rendered disqualified is adokimos, which Paul uses in other context to refer to the Gentiles God gave up to sin. Romans 1:28 or false teachers who oppose the gospel in 2 Timothy 3:8. The adokimos are not merely subpar Christians. Second, I'd like to look at what he's saying here that he's trying to say because words can be used in multiple ways that doesn't change the meaning of the word in its specific context. And so, uh, the word justification, for example, can be used in multiple ways. I can speak about something to give justification to you. So if you all ask me why am I going to Brazil and I gave you a reasoning to make sure that I was justified for why I'm going to Brazil, that doesn't mean it's I'm using the word justified the same way I would use it when talking about being justified before God. If I had to defend myself uh and and take someone's life in self-defense, I would give you my justification, but that's not the same as my justification before God when it comes to salvation. And so a word can have multiple usage uh usages. So, let let's just take a look though. Let's open up the Greek and let's just look at it together and see what he's actually talking about when it comes to um adokamos is what I think he said it is. Uh disqualified is at the end. Adokimos. Let's go to it real quick. So, um it could be it it's examine, test, or approve. Um so, the word dokamos is examine, test, or approve. uh doamos means the opposite of and so uh unqualified disqualified failed to meet it. Um and so it's used in in the New Testament it looks like uh actually these are the senses the different senses are worthless worthless or phony. And so really the senses that this word is used in is uh less valuable not actually disqualified in the sense of not counted anymore but I guess we can see um let's see it's used eight times in the New Testament as disqualified. It's used in second Timothy. Just as Giannis and Yambras opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth. Men of deprad depraved mind, disqualified in regard to the faith. Notice that Paul adds a qualifier in 2 Timothy 3:8 that he makes it clear that they are disqualified. Wait a minute. Adulamoy. But then he says regarding the faith. And so if the word by itself means uh regarding the faith, why would Paul redundantly add regarding the faith? Unless in order for this word to be related to faith, you would have to imply the context with it. And so it seems here that the first thing we went to, Paul using this word demonstrates that the word itself doesn't relate to faith alone. It can also relate to other ways you're disqualified. And yet Paul makes it clear here that he is regarding the faith when he's speaking of it. And so if Paul really meant that in the same way in 1 Corinthians 9, why not write it that way seeing that he's done so pri prior to that? Let's look at other usages of it. Unfit, Romans 1, it does use that word to describe the type of mind that a person is given when given over to uh the enemy. Titus 1, they profess to know God, but by their works they deny him, being detestable and disobedient and unfit for any good work. And so they're not qualified for any good work. That's not about salvation. And that's about your qualifications for a good work. But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is unfit to and close to being cursed and its end is to be burned. And so that's about the type of land being unfit for anything good. Fail to test. So test yourself to see if you are in the actually might be the banger that actually explains this even better. So Paul says, I do what? Paul says I Let's go back real quick to it. I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others, I should be disqualified. Paul uses the same words when telling you to test yourself. And he says, examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves or do you not realize this about yourself that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail to meet the test. And so Paul literally is instructing people to test them test yourself. And so you could also argue that maybe Paul is saying that I test myself constantly to make sure that I'm truly of the faith, which that would mean Paul isn't telling you to do something he doesn't do himself. And so again, doesn't mean that you're talking about losing the salvation because here Paul doesn't talk about losing salvation. Paul talks about testing yourself to see if you are even of the faith in the first place. Again, saying that this word automatically can be used that way, I don't think is fair. Then when you mix that with the context that we've already looked at in 1 Corinthians 9, I think that it's clear Paul's talking about his qualifications as an apostle. Let's keep going.

"Paul never refers to Stephanos, the athletes crown, as an earthly or heavenly reward for believers. Apostolic ministry was >> I don't no I don't think anyone who believes what we believe would say that Paul is referring to an earthly crown. >> Not rewarded to someone like a crown. Paul uses the word three other times. Twice he uses it to refer to believers as believers themselves as a metaphorical crown or reward for the apostles who served Christ and evangelized them. But that's not the meaning here because Ryan would agree Paul's sin would not affect the salvation of those who merely heard his preaching. Instead, the meaning is the same as in 2 Timothy 4 where Paul says, 'I have finished the race. I have kept the faith. Henceforth, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day. And not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing.'"

"We agree those that endure to the end. I agree to that that terminology because we know that those who have true faith will endure. And so, we are all pushing to the end. This is why Peter says to do these certain things to affirm your calling, affirm your election. And so literally um I would agree with that 100% that we should strive to make sure that we are counted amongst the elect. This is the language of Peter in is it first Peter First Peter I don't remember exactly where it's at and I might I might take too much time trying to find it. Is it first Peter 1? I have to come back to that. But for those that you can go look it up yourself. Peter writes in in one of his letters um about these certain works he's talked about these good things that you should be doing. Someone in the chat if you can if you know what I'm talking about by the way please let me know. Um but Peter says be sure to do these things so that um you may be uh you affirm your election. Right? And I agree. Right. Eternal security is not say a prayer and you're good. Eternal security is those who are truly in Christ will never be lost because it is God doing the work in you. Second Peter 2:110 to 2 Peter 1:10. Thank you so much man. Let's read the whole thing. His divine power has granted to us all things Shut up Joe. all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who calls us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises so that we going to do that Joe I apologize guys my dog's annoying so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature having escaped from the corruption that is the very uh uh that is in the world because of sinful desire for this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self-control. Give me one second, guys. I apologize. That dog is annoying. Let's keep going though. um to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self-control and self-control with steadfastness and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love. And so in short, supplement your trust, your faith with actions that fall in line with that faith. Pay attention to why he says that though. Is he saying this so that you can uh get saved or preserve your salvation? No. For if these qualities are yours and increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. And so having these qualities prevent you from being ineffective because if you don't live like Christ, then you're not going to be effective because our love and our actions are effective for the kingdom. Pay attention. forever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Wait, Peter says, "Someone who lacks these qualities is still saved because they've been cleansed from his former sins." He doesn't say anything about losing it, but pay attention now. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election. For if you practice these qualities, you will never fall. Never confirm them. Ladies and gentlemen, I preach the same thing. I I hope you all are trying to confirm your election every day. Walk in a way that is honorable to God to confirm that you know him. This is what First John is about. We just talked about it. By this you know if you are of the faith by this he says therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities though you may know them and are established in the truth that you have I think it is right as long as I am in the body to stir you up by way of reminder since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me and I'll make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. All right, let's go back.

"Notice Paul does not treat salvation as something automatic for anyone who ever trusted in Christ. It is only for those who kept the faith, who finished the race. And this crown is not I would argue that Paul is just saying that that's how you'll know it's evident. I won't say that he's denying that salvation is automatic because he also says in Romans chapter 5 verse1 therefore since we have been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through him we also have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit has been given to us. And so, to me, Paul is saying uh that there is this instanti uh situation, this um essentially you are saved instantly. However, yes, we don't know who truly is of the Lord. And so I'm going to call all of you to walk in a certain way because I don't know if you truly have this faith. But if you do, then we rejoice in suffering because we know, notice that language. We rejoice in suffering because we know it produces endurance. And endurance produces character. If you are not in Christ, suffering produces falling away. If you are in Christ, suffering produces endurance. Let's keep going. a reward for good servants. It's given to all who enter into heaven. Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians, he worried about being disqualified from the crown of salvation, which shows salvation can be forsaken. In Romans 11, Paul describes the Gentiles as branches that were grafted onto the ancient olive tree of Israel. He says in verse 22, 'Behold then the kindness and severity of our God to those who fell severity, but to you God's kindness, >> if you continue in his kindness, otherwise you also will be cut off.'"

"Agree. This is actually one of the strongest verses that people that believe you can lose your salvation do have. However, once we analyze this properly under the scriptures, I don't believe that it actually holds as much weight as they think it does. And so, first and foremost, Romans 11, um, speaking about the remnant of Israel. And so, first we have to ask the question is what's happening in the Roman church that Paul has to write this? There is a divide between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. That's why the first four chapters is emphasizing that both Jew and Gentile need salvation. They need grace. And so that's emphasized in the very beginning. And so what's also happening, you see this mindset of the gentile Christian being like, "Y'all rejected the Messiah. Y'all are aren't God's people no more. We are." And so what I would argue, and we're going to read it to prove it, is that Paul is rejecting some type of Gentile universalism. That is all Jews are rejected and all Gentiles are saved. And that's why he opens up describing that number one, even when the Gentile even when the Jews reject God, there's always a remnant. Likewise, there was a remnant in the Old Testament. He said, uh, do you not know that the scripture says of Elijah how he appeals to God against Israel? Lord, they have killed your prophets. They have demolished your altars and I alone am left and they seek my life. But what is it God? What is God's reply to him? I have kept for myself 7,000 men who have not bowed the knee to all. So too, at present time, there is a remnant chosen by grace. And so Paul opens up Romans 11 by emphasizing that just because the Jews have rejected their Messiah doesn't mean that all Jews have fallen from grace. That there is a remnant. What then? Israel fa failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened. Again, emphasizing that this all happened for a purpose and that the remnant did obtain it. Then he goes into Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree. I'm glad that that Trent emphasized that this is olive tree symbology and not salvation itself. I don't think he actually said it, but he he implies it. The olive tree itself is not salvation. The olive tree is access to God's covenant. Prior to the grafting in of the Gentiles, Gentiles didn't even have access to God. Can anyone tell me where a Gentile could ever go directly to God in the Old Testament? I'll wait. Directly to God. They can go to a prophet. They can go to Israel. Can y can anyone show me where a gentile in the Old Testament can go directly to God or even have access to anything from God without first going through an Israelite? Nebuchadnezzar could not handle his own dreams. He needed a Israelite Daniel to uh interpret them. Pharaoh was incapable of even interpreting his dreams from God. He needed Joseph to interpret them. Non the Syrian could not be healed directly from Yahweh. He had to go to Elisha. The widow of Zerapath could not get saved with her family. She had to go through Elijah. And so, you're right. Israelites are the only ones who had access to the covenant. They're the only ones that who had access to God. In fact, prior to Pentecost, he wasn't even the God of the Gentiles. Oh, someone who doesn't study scriptures is going to be offended at that. Prior to Pentecost, he is the God of Israel. That's the God of Israel. He's not even Yahw's God. And and a Angie just commented uh Ephesians 2:8:9, which brings up a great point. even uh well not 289. She's bringing that up for something else, but it reminded me of Ephesians later in Ephesians. I think it's around verse 11 or 12. He's talking to the Gentiles saying, "For you who were far off from the covenant promises." Let's go there real quick. I see your comment about Job. We'll actually touch on that in a second. Remember that you were at a time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Now, real quick to the person who brought up Job, Job is prior to the creation of Israel. And so, no, you are right. There are non-Israelites who have access to God, but that's all prior to Israel. So, Israel didn't exist yet. Job actually happens the so many people believe Job takes place around the same time that Abraham is still getting him his life situated. And so no, Job Job doesn't isn't isn't post Israel. Abraham hasn't even really been established yet uh at that time. So again, you guys can go look that up yourself. Job is actually one of the oldest stories in the Bible. Um and it's happening around the same time as Abraham. And so prior to Abraham, no, God was the God of all people, but at the Tower of Babel, he actually separates all of people and he keeps one for himself. Uh, jump over to I just did a video about this the other day, but"

Deuteronomy 32, remember the days of old. Consider the years of many generations. Ask your father and he will show you; your elders and they will tell you.

When the Most High Yahweh gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people. Let me highlight that. Jacob, his allotted heritage. What does Jacob's name become? Israel. So he takes a for himself. So, prior to the foundation of Israel, yes, God was the God of all people, but from Abraham to Pentecost, he's the God of Israel. Period.

Let's keep going though, real quick. And so, let's read this now. So, I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means. Rather, through their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous. And so Israel is not your enemies. All right, this is the mindset. Think about it for a second. Imagine this. Imagine you're a gentile in the first century and you hear the good news and you hear that it happened because the Jews rejected Jesus. And you're looking at the Jews like this like, "Y'all rejected your Messiah. Bro, he loves us more than you. The God of Israel is on our side now and y'all in trouble." And Paul's got to be like, "Yo, pump your brakes. P pump pump your brakes. Their rejection of the Messiah was for your benefit. Let's make that very clear."

Let's keep going though. Now I am speaking to you Gentiles in as much then as I am as the apostles of the Gentiles. I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their their acceptance mean but life from death? And so listen, their rejection was salvation to the world, but we want them saved. Right? That was for a purpose.

If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump. And if the root is holy, so is the so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off and you although a wild olive sheet chute were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who supports the root but the root who supports you. Then you will say branches are broken off so that I might be grafted in. That is true. They were broken off because of unbelief. But you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and severity of God, severity towards those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off. Continue. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in. For God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these the natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?

Again, covenant access to God. All the Jews aren't saved just for being Jews. Some Jews because of unbelief can be cut off. All the Gentiles are not saved to to to make Israel upset. It is only through belief. And so don't go getting ahead of yourself thinking like, "Oh, the Jews rejected you, so we're all good." No, you too could be cut off for unbelief. And I actually like what Jackson said here. Um, my thing is, Israel never believed. How does this demonstrate they lose salvation? And so that's the point. Israelites aren't losing salvation either that get cut off from the branch. They're getting cut off from the branch because they're losing access to God. Israelites didn't just automatically have salvation. They had to put their trust in Christ. That's why John 15 says, "I'm the true vine." And then if you actually keep reading on, he says, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God, but now have received mercy, because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by mercy shown to you, they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."

And so the the olive tree symbology of of Romans 11 is not about losing salvation. It's about covenant access to God. All right, let's keep going though because I am no matter what I have to be done at a certain time today. So, this episode can be about 35 to 40 more minutes long because I have to go to the chiropractor. We're not getting through the whole debate. I was hoping to at least get to some cross-examination, but man, we're all in Trent's intro.

>> You can only cut off or take away something that was attached in the first place.

>> Agreed. But we have to discuss attached to what? Jesus is the true vine, not the olive tree. There's two separate things happening here. Olive tree, true vine. The true the olive tree grows a fruit which is Jesus is matured, it dies and goes into the ground and a new seed is planted and the true vine grows. Jesus uses that language by the way that unless the fruit falls from the tree and is and goes into the ground, a new seed cannot be planted. That's his words. I I can't remember where. Someone in the chat, you can put it in the chat for others to read it, but that's that's actually the language. Keep going. Or in this case, true believers who later separated themselves from Christ. This correspond

>> He adds that to what Paul told the Galatians that they were in Galatians 5:4 severed from Christ. You who are seeking to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace. Yes, we don't disagree with this. See, I think again, I think the real thing that matters here is what these words mean, what the language means. Because if you're not willing to talk about what things are being said, you imply your own meaning on the language.

>> Now, someone commented, uh, once saved, always saved leads leads to hell. Uh, second Peter 2:20. So, first of all, we don't I don't care about the term once saved, always saved. Uh, we believe in eternal security that those that are born again of the spirit, born of imperishable seed, cannot therefore perish and cannot lose their salvation. And we stand on that because the word of the Lord declares that constantly. Pointing to second Peter doesn't do anything for that. Because second Peter talks about a dog returning to his b his vomit. A dog. He was always a dog. He was a dog when he showed up and a dog when he left. We we say sheep will always be sheep and the good shepherd will lose none of his sheep. John chapter 10. And so yeah, you want to talk about false prophets and false prophets sneaking in amongst us and being liars. That's what John talks about. For they were of us. If they were really of us, they would never have left us. But if they left us, they were never of us. If someone says he knows God but hates his brother, he's a liar. If someone says he knows God and walks in darkness, he's a liar. And so, yeah. No. Uh, that's fine and all, but we believe in the eternal security of Christ. God bless.

>> Might say, "These people didn't trust in Christ, but chose circumcision, and so they don't count as true believers."

>> Yes.

>> But our debate prompt is a person can lose his salvation even if he continues to trust in Christ, not trust in Christ alone. The Galatians,

>> Okay, so now he's playing semantics that the debate prompt doesn't say trust in Christ alone. So that's just that's just playing with semantics.

>> Probably trusted in Christ, but they also trusted in circumcision to save them along. So, if I was Brian, my rebuttal would have been, uh, you're right, Trent, that the debate prompt doesn't say that. However, uh, if you're going to if you want to argue against a debate prompt and and feel like you get a technical win for arguing against the debate prompt, then by all means do so. But I did not come to do that. I came here to debate the eternal security. And so, what I mean is trusting in Christ alone for their salvation. Um, and so, yeah, if you don't trust in Christ alone, if you trust in your own works, if you trust in your own uh ability to be righteous, then you do not know Christ. In fact, that's Paul's words. And at the end of Romans 9, we're going to go to 10. So, I could just scroll back. He literally says, "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it." That is a righteousness that is by faith. But that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over a stumbling stone as it is written. So, Israel pursued righteousness if it was based on works. uh Gentiles pursued righteousness because it was based on faith. That's Yeah.

>> With it. And that heresy damned them in spite of anything they believed about Jesus.

>> Yes. Because you So the reason that the Galatian heresy damns them is because they are trying to put themselves under the bondage of the law that by doing something like circumcision, it grants them a certain level of righteousness. And therefore you are trampling underfoot the blood of Christ because if Christ's blood is sufficient and you try to add to that you then make the Christ's blood insufficient. And so for example if I hand you a cup and in that cup is an antidote to sin and I say this antidote will save you. If you truly trust me you will drink the cup. However, if you're like well what if it's not perfect and you try to add something else to it saying I'm going to drink that and add something to it. By adding something to it, you actually tarnish what you added added to it and you demonstrated you didn't trust me. And so even though you might have said you trust me, the moment you said, "Well, let me pour some ibuprofen in here. Let me pour some bleach in here." That's a matter of fact, that's what it'll be. I'm going to use I'm going to create a brand new analogy right here on the spot. True faith in Christ is like Christ saying, "You are dying of a sickness called sin. You're dying from a sickness called sin." And here's the antidote. And that antidote is in the cup. You, if you truly trust him, will drink the antidote. If you don't trust him, you'll add bleach to it. And by drinking the new cup with his antidote plus bleach, you're killing yourself because you added something into it, not thinking his antidote was sufficient. And if I come past your house and you're still sick and I say, "Did you take the antidote?" and you said, "I did take the antidote, but yet you're still sick," you're a liar. Likewise, as John said, if someone says he knows God, but hates his brother, he's a liar. If someone says he took the antidote, but he's still sick, he's a liar. And so, yes, adding to what Christ has done to save you because you didn't think it was sufficient enough on its own is not trusting him. Okay. I think I think did I nail that? Y'all understand me? Let's continue.

>> If Ryan says that we're saved if we trust in Christ, even if we will still sin, then that must apply to all of our sins, even heresy, as long as the person trusts in Christ according to his view.

>> Well, this is where the argument get this is why I said I don't think I like this argument anymore because nowadays it becomes a bunch of whatifs. And that's the thing. Uh it denies what sanctification is and it becomes the what if or what about this and what about that and what about this? And so we're trying to make an outward decision on the true heart of a person and saying, "Well, what's what does a true heart demonstrate on the outward, but God knows the heart? If a person truly trusts God, then he trusts God." Like, let's continue. Second, Paul clearly says they fell from grace. Only true believers have saving grace. So, this passage shows a person can be a only true believers have saving grace. That doesn't mean that all grace is saving grace. And the Catholic Church acknowledges this. There's lots of graces. Matter of fact, if Christ offers you grace and then you reject his truth, then you reject and you rejected that grace and you could even say that he fell from that grace because grace was offered to you. Matter of fact, there are graces in our world today that we are given by God every day. The very fact that the atheist who hates God wakes up and breathes breath and doesn't die for his sin has grace. And so I think that's a semantic game he's playing there that because Paul refers to these people as falling from grace uh meaning that they fell from saving grace. So big difference there because saving grace is unique to common graces. These are theological terms. So the Bible talks about different graces one of which is common grace which is extended to all people. Even non-believers have access to common grace. But I digress.

>> True Christian who trusts in Christ and then forsakes salvation through grave unrepentant sin. What do we find in the letter to the Hebrews? The author says, "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Hebrews 3:14.

>> I agree.

>> He also said in Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire will consume the adversaries."

>> So, I've done this before. Man, I don't know if I had the time to do that right now, but I I've went through Hebrews 10. If you go back to my last Word Up Wednesday episode of can a Christian lose his salvation, we've talked about this. The people that will claim that this verse means you can lose your salvation for will for for deliberate sin, never actually believe that in their own life. Because if you read it in the most plain way of trying to say that's what this is saying, well then that means any deliberate sin you have. Like it doesn't say mortal sin. It says deliberate. If you deliberately lie cuz your friend says, "Hey, did you eat that last muffin?" And you're just like, "No, I didn't." That's a deliberate sin. you chose to lie and you chose not to tell him. Period. Right? If you decide to watch that movie because there are certain things in that movie that that kind of let you uh have a little lust in your life and and man, you probably shouldn't have did that, but you deliberately did it. Lost your salvation. If if if you and just fill in the blank, right? They don't want to do that. They want to add qualifiers to it. Well, what this means is if you deliberately keep on sinning, you've lost your salvation. If I deliberately sin, then you know I've got grace, right? Because even the Catholic Church would say that a deliberate venial sin doesn't cause you to lose your salvation. But a deliberate mortal sin does. Well, then wait a minute. So you're qualifying what this doesn't qualify. And if you read the entire chapter in context, it actually makes sense when it says if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. Why? Because the old sacrifice has been put away. Literally said just a little bit prior to that. Why is my wife coming in here extremely loud? So right before this he actually talks about how he does away with the old to establish the new. He does away with the first in order to establish the second. So the old sacrifices are to done away with and the new sacrifice is established. So if Jesus does away with the old sacrifice, what does that mean? If you reject the gospel, there no longer remains a sacrifice. Yes or no? I want you ought to think about that. So, as a Jew, if you sin, what do you do? You go and you perform an offering. Doves, goat, lamb, you know, whatever, whatever your sin calls for, right? But if Christ does away with the sacrificial offerings of the temple and you have this knowledge and you reject it, what then happens? There remains no sacrifice. that our child is.

>> So if you are a and by the way the letter of Hebrews is written to who? Hebrews. So I want you to imagine this. The temple still stands. We all agree that in 70 AD is the temple fell and the book of Hebrews was written while the temple still stands. If you go on and deliberately sin after you receive the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for those sins. You don't get to go to the temple. Now, why do we know that? You can also see this that it's speaking of u the temple priests because the first half of this is what the same sacrifice it can never by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year make perfect those who draw near. Uh, but in these sacrifices there's a reminder of sins every year. uh he does away with the first in order to establish the second talking about his sacrifice and every priest stands daily at his service offering repeatedly by the same sacrifices which can never take away sin. So literally it's saying and every every priest stands daily at his service that's present tense offering repeatedly the same sacrifices which can never take away sin. So it's constantly being said. And then he says what? Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. And so then when we get to verse 26, for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin. If you reject the gospel, you know what? You can expect a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. How do we know that? That's what he's talking about because this is for those who have trampled underfoot the son of God. Do you know what it means to trample underfoot the son of God? Watch what it says too. And has profained the blood of the covenant covenant by which he was sanctified. Wait. So these people have rejected the the sacrifice of Christ. Rejected the sacrifice of Christ. walked right past the sacrifice of Christ and literally continue to go to the temple and do their own sacrifices. They are profaneing the blood of the covenant. Let's keep going though because I don't have time to sit and I've went through Hebrews 10 like in depth uh in other videos last Wednesday on the uh eternal security playlist. I mean uh episode Hebrews 10:10 and Hebrews 10:14 teach that Christ sacrifice is once for all never repeated and perfect. But notice what we learn in verses 26 to 27. after receiving knowledge of that truth. If a Christian continues to sin, Christ's perfect sacrifice no longer remains for him. Is he willing to say that that's true the way he's interpreting it? Because that would mean once you fall from grace, you can never be saved again. Let's just go because if he's going to go down that route, then we have to read this the way he's trying to imply it. If he's saying that, what this means is for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, the gospel, you no longer get Christ sacrificed. Well, Christ is not going to be resacrificed. And what it says you have instead is a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. And so it seems like if Trent is claiming that this means if you sin deliberately as a Christian, you lose your salvation. Then we have to say any sin that's deliberate, not just mortal, but any sin would cause it and that there's no getting it back. Cuz the text here does not leave this open to uh something you can gain back. Now, according to what I'm saying, it believes it makes sense. If a Jew rejects the gospel, rejects the sacrifice of Christ, goes to the temple, and performs another sacrifice in opposition to the sacrifice of Christ, you're right. He has nothing to expect but but condemnation. He will never be saved. If he tramples under the blood of f foot, the underfoot the blood of Christ, he has nothing. And so I I it's rough. The author of Hebrews then compares the punishments for those who broke the old covenant with the punishments for those who break the new covenant. He says, "Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has insulted the spirit of grace."

>> Let's go back and look at that real quick. If you reject Moses, it's one thing. If you reject the gospel, it's another. Yes. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy. He's telling the Jews, you know this, that anyone who puts aside the law of Moses dies with no mercy. How much worse would it be to do the same? Notice this. It doesn't say whoever breaks the law of Moses. It says set aside. Set aside. And so he's emphasizing to them that just as rejecting the law of Moses was punishable by by physical death, rejecting the gospel, this is more evidence that this is rejection. And notice this little little word that matters. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the son of God and has profaneed the blood of covenant by which he has been sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace? Oh, my translation doesn't say it the way he does, but treats it as unclean. So, I want you to hear in his translation because that actually is a little bit stronger of a point that this is about people who look at the look at Christ's blood as if it's not valuable. The punishments for those who broke the old covenant with the punishments for those who break the new covenant. He says, "Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who is trampled underfoot the son of God and as regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant and regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant and in the ESV it says um and has profained the blood of the covenant uh by which he was sanctified well if we go back to verse 93 it's talking about the the what Christ has done and so for example How much more will the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without blemish to God purify our conscience from dead works to serving a little living God. Or I'll just go to Hebrews not Hebrews uh John 17 what Jesus says as you have sent me into the world so I have sent them and for their sake I consecrate myself that they also may be sanctified. And so both us and Christ are sanctified in this. The word consecrate literally means sanctified. Why is it not opening it up? Ah, for some reason I'm not getting it. So the word consecrate and the word sanctified are literally the exact same thing. And so I would argue that what we're seeing in uh right there in Hebrews 10, it's not talking about the person who is um going to be trampling under the foot of under the blood of trampling underfoot the blood of Christ. He himself has been sanctified, but the very blood of the covenant by which he has was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace. But I might be wrong on that. Let me just read it again to make sure that I'm reading it properly. How much more worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the son of God and has profained the blood of the covenant by which he has was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace for we know him who said vengeance is mine and I will repay and again the lord will judge his people and so in this entire paragraph the his the him the son of god I think it's leaning towards that he has that in which he was sanctified which we also read in Philippians 2 or I'm not Philippians 2 Hebrews 2. By the way, we're going to stay in Hebrews here so that way we can see it. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. Oh, sorry. Right here. He uh his salvation was made perfect through suffering. So, he was consecrated, sanctified. And then it says, "For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source." And so, yeah, I would say that we're talking about the sanctification of the blood that Christ endured for us on our behalf for us to be sanctified. But I don't think that that one ver that one section there um is the important aspect of it because then you would have to ask a question of how can that correlate with the earlier passage where it says for by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Right? So, how can he perfect for all time those being sanctified and then literally say in a moment that you who are sanctified can be fall short and not be perfected, right? Like I I think that that plays a major factor as well, right? All right, let's keep going though. We're running low on time. By which he was sanctified and has insulted the spirit of grace. Now, the only punishment worse than physical death is eternal death. So, the author of Hebrews is warning his readers, they face eternal death if they fail to hold fast our confidence firm to the end. And we know this warning applies to true believers, not false believers, because it talks about a man who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the blood of Christ. And only true believers are sanctified by that. My second argument is that Ryan's position. Only true believers are sanctified by that. What? Sometimes I can't tell Trent's helping prove my point. Like a lot of what Trent has said here I agree with. Like people who have vain belief aren't really saved. Uh I the difference is I say they're not really saved. He says they lose salvation. Side note, since we're definitely not going to make it into the cross- examination, me and JD haven't decided what to do tonight for the episode. So tonight on the podcast, we're going to do part two and we're going to actually go through the the cross- examination, the Q&A section. So, we will finish this episode tonight, by the way, with this this breakdown. And both will be available on YouTube. But hold on. I have to go back cuz I'm just a little I'm just a little confused at how he just said that.

>> And we know this warning applies to true believers, not false believers, because it talks about a man who had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the blood of Christ, and only true believers are sanctified by that.

>> So, he's saying it is applied to true believers because they have been uh only they are sanctified by the blood of the covenant. But that's not true at all because the Bible speaks corporately all the time. I saw someone even comment that that there's a corporate speech that happens often in scripture. But then he says only true believers are sanctified. But then how do you deal with the prior verse that says for by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. That means I'm perfected for tomorrow. He has perfected for all time. yesterday, tomorrow, a week from now, eight years from now. It's 900 p. p.m. Central Standard Time tonight. Gavin,

>> My second argument is that Ryan's position is unhistorical. No saint, church father, ecclesial writer, or any notable Christian help.

>> Yeah, that that part of his argument I'm not even concerned with. So, we're going to bring this down cuz I'm going to get ready to end this here soon and then um then we'll finish tonight only cuz I'm not I'm not worried about cuz literally he just the the the topic of the debate is does the Bible teach it? And to go to the uh the postbiblical writings in a debate about does the Bible teach it? Um I'd rather go to the Q&A section and the cross-examination section. And so, what do we have here? Let me um let me let me close the Bible on screen for the Tik Tockers real quick. So, it it seems uh Trent is really good at debates, by the way. Really respect his abilities. He's really good at it. Um, and I just noticed that my lights are yellow for me, but in the video for y'all, they're like a like a tan color. I just peeped that. Um, I need to fix my colors. But yeah, Trent seems to be arguing from this position of vain faith. Like I would agree with him. And I think it's really, like I said, I think the real thing that needs to be debated is is rather than doing this, we need to discuss what is true faith and what is sanctification. Um, the main portion of this debate that we need to hear though is the cross-examination and the back and forth. Right? That's the that's the real meat of it that I'm looking forward to. But I would say that in that period, the main thing I heard Trent do is point to things that I would argue are not accurate towards rejecting eternal security. Matthew 7. Um, I'm surprised he didn't go to Philippians 2 where it says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." I'm really surprised he didn't do that. Do I have any questions before we end though? Because I've been doing all the talking and so y'all been sitting here watching this this whole time. What are some questions in the chat before I leave? So, I can go to um um the chiropractor. Last couple minutes and I'm leaving cuz I got to go go to the chiropractor. Going once. Going twice. sold. Nobody has a question. Um, so all right, I'm not gonna sit here and stare at y'all. Uh, all right. There's a question and I'll do that question and that'll be the answer. No, we're not going to do a Roman 7 debate tonight. I know we talked about it, but uh we want tonight's episode not to end on something like that. Um, so vain faith, the word vain means shallow. And so anything that's vain is shallow and not authentic. And so a vain faith is a faith that's not grounded in in your heart, but something that you verbally say. And so the example I used earlier is if um I told you I trust you but yet I don't actually put that faith into action. We use a trust fall as an example. Anyone can stand on the edge of a table and say I trust you to catch me. But am I willing to fall into your arms and let you catch me? If I say I trust you, but I don't fall into your arms. That is vain faith. It's verbal faith. And I think we all have people like that in our lives that we've done that with. How many of you have had a friend that you told like, "Yo, I trust you." But when things hit the fan, you don't call them up. Why don't you call them up? Because you don't really trust them. You don't really trust them, right? We I'm not calling them, but I tell them I trust them. And so vain faith is shallow faith. Faith that is not actually rooted in your heart, but just something you verbally say. Just like anything that you speak that are that's why we call them vain words. When you just give somebody lip service, it's called shallow words or vain words. Uh will I be able to watch this live again? Yes. So on my on my YouTube channel, all of these are going to be in my past live streams in the playlist word up Wednesday for the Wednesday live streams. And then tonight at 900 PM Central, I will be back uh to finish this. We're going to go into the rest of the debate. I'm sure um um uh JD would love to do that uh with me. And so we will be back for that. But I have to go. I have an appointment. I have to get off here. And so thank you guys so much for joining us. I'm going to play the playout for you guys on YouTube and then I'm going to end it for Tik Tok. So, as always, God bless and go in peace, guys.

>> The true Christian ministry.

>> Every day, you have two things to look at. The standard, which is Christ, and who you were yesterday. And your goal is to keep your eyes on Christ and be better than who you were yesterday. You know, you're not going to beat Christ. Amen.

>> Is that when you fall short today, eyes on Christ. You fall short tomorrow, eyes on Christ. Be better than who you were yesterday. Praise Jesus, baby. There is nothing this world can give me that I haven't already found in Christ. Today is the day

>> Living a holy life is our worship to a holy God. Today is the day of salvation. The true Christian ministry to true Christian ministry. Yahweh the father, Yahweh the son, Yahweh the holy spirit. They are one one. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the ONLY ONE. TODAY is the day.

>> The reality is that we're all walking on a pathway to death from the moment that we're born. And that life can only be found in Christ. But we can be reconciled to God. And we can have eternal life if you put your faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.