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Thanks for joining us this week on The Exchange with Ed Stzer. The Exchange is a place where we like to engage in truth, thoughts, and theology, hoping to compel one another to love and good deeds. As always, we want you to engage with us on social media. So, be sure to use the hashtag #theexchange.

So, on today's show, Ed has a wide-ranging conversation with the funny and always energetic John Auff. He's a New York Times bestselling author. He's the author of books like *Start*, *Twitter*, *Stuff Christians Like*. And so, Ed and John talk about character and leadership and John's latest book called *Doover*.

But before we get into that interview, let's learn from Carmen Fowler Leurge about engaging today's culture.

Hi, my name is Carmen Fowler Leurge, and I'm here to encourage you, um, to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus has taken hold of you. Each and every one of us has an opportunity to engage the world with the mind of Christ, uh, and with the winsome spirit of Christ. And so my encouragement to you today is to enter into authentic conversations with your neighbors and your friends; equip the lay people in your congregation in order to have everyday conversations where they do engage in the reality of apologetics, bridging those gaps with their neighbors and friends in order to pave the way for the introduction of the gospel. Today, so many people, even though they live across the driveway, they live a chasm away in terms of their understanding of who God is, what God desires, and that God is good. And so let us restore the nobility of marriage. Let us redeem the culture. And let us do so by introducing it to the Christ who came to redeem.

Every great story begins with the voice giving shape to darkness. A storyteller speaking characters into existence. And it's good. In fact, it's perfect. Enter the villain; one who wishes to change the story, to bring death to mankind, to unmake the storyteller's good world. Our inciting incident, where everything goes wrong. The villain tells the characters they can create their own story, and they believe the lie. Death is sentenced, and the characters are enslaved. The villain is triumphant, but all is not lost. The storyteller is not idle; he has a plan, but it will take time and sacrifice. The people face extinction, yet they are not swept away. They face death, but a substitute is given. They face captivity, and the storyteller provides their escape. Yet they remain chained by the villain, but a promise is made. Serpent is lifted high on a staff and brings healing. An unlikely king frees his people. From an ocean tomb comes a message of life. Hints of a great rescuer. And then nothing. The story goes quiet. The people fear the storyteller has forgotten his promise. The rescue begins. The storyteller enters the story; he heals the sick, brings hope to the captive. He loves the unlovable. The villain plots his vengeance; he strikes when the hero's life is given for his people. His promise fulfilled. The substitute is sacrificed. The people are again free. And the hero emerges from his tomb. He gathers his people and sends them out as storytellers. More believe. Their numbers grow. One story told over thousands of years. My story. Your story. His story. This is the Gospel Project.

John, welcome back to the exchange. You know, we had fun last time. We, uh, we we got a little trouble probably with some of our witty repartee.

Sure.

Sure. Um, but let's let's do it again. Um, so you wrote a book called *Doover*, which is both biographical in some ways because you have this this, uh, I don't know, this situation. You're working for Dave Ramsey. I made the news. You're gone, and and it seemed and head shot.

Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. So, so what first of all, you got to give us what happened.

Yeah. So, um, for me, part of it was that it's hard to be around an entrepreneurial environment like that and not want to try it on your own. And I was writing books daring other people to take risks, and I and I knew I wasn't. And so it was a difficult decision. It was a long decision. Um, but eventually we came to a point where I realized I wanted to try it on my own.

Okay. So so so uh and it got a little awkward there. You know, right around that time there were blog posts. We don't know what happened, etc., etc. I think anytime something public ends, the challenge is that I had built up a relationship with readers of my blog where I shared everything. My my book *Quitter*, I said I got $30,000 for my first book, and here's how that breaks down. And so then there was a situation where I really couldn't share the details out of respect for HR and company policy. And so a lot of people I think felt, wait a second, the last six or seven years was *Stuff Christians Like*. You've shared everything, and now you're not sharing that. But I just felt like it wasn't appropriate.

We're used to you like oversharing.

Exactly. If anything, that's the problem I've had. Um, so you were a quitter. In other words, you were a quitter. And so now your the book you wrote afterwards is *do* is *Doover*. You like these short, punchy titles, and they sell way more than anything I ever write. So it must be working for you.

Well, I had one long-titled book, and they abbreviated it to just *Gazels*, and it sounded like I had a really inappropriate fascination with the animal.

It does. It's a little…

So I felt like, you know what, I'm going to go short and punchy. And so yeah, the book's about career transition. This is so *Doover* is about career transition. So here you find yourself, uh, stepping out of this role, whatever the circumstances were to get there, uh, and and and you're starting over. You're doing over. And a lot of people at that point would think I'm done. I mean, how old were you at this time?

Um, so this is two years ago. I was 37.

37 years old. Okay. So that's kind of, you know, it's a key time, peak time, and boom, you're out. So tell me about *Doover*.

Yeah. So I really started to realize, okay, there's four things that everybody needs to have a good career transition. It's relationships plus skills plus character times hustle. And none of those words is revolutionary. None of your viewers are going to go, I had no idea skills matter. Like, blew my mind. But the problem is most of us have never applied those four things.

Give us again.

Relationship. Relationships plus skills plus character times hustle. And you need all four. What I like to say is that say you have great relationships, great skills, great hustle, but your character takes a hit. You become Tiger Woods, and it it falls apart. It kills me that golf commentators right now are going, "It's so weird. Tiger's not good at golf." Really? Is it that weird? And same with… Let's look at pastors for a second. Say you have great skills, great character, great hustle, and no relationships. You become the leader with the emperor's new clothes. And what what I've learned is leaders who can't be questioned end up doing questionable things. Show me a church who fell. Show me a business who fell, and I'll show you a leader who is isolated. And so the book is about how do you build what I call a career savings account of those four things, those four investments. And what's been fun is that the military has bought into the book. The person that bought the most is a is a member of the military, and he gives them to people that are transitioning out of the military or into it. College students are buying it because talk about a doover. You're leaving college and trading three months of vacation for eight days off a year. That's a big transition. *Parents* magazine named it the mom must-read of the month because stay-at-home moms that might want to dip their toe back into doing something. That's a doover. So *Quitter* was very much about, hey, if you want to quit your job, here's how to do it the right way. This is about if you want to have an awesome job and a long-term career and not be the 70% of Americans who hate what they do, here's how to do it.

Okay. So, so you mentioned pastors. A lot of our viewers are going to be pastors and church leaders. So let's go there. Um, I'm concerned about the character issue a lot. I have seen and found, uh, that articulation and charisma are way more important and, uh, than character and integrity, and and I think that's having some huge impacts across the church. And and as as one… I mean, and again, I I have to be aware, my guard, my own heart in the midst of this as well. But as one who works with a lot of different leaders, I mean, I I I'm concerned about this. I mean, I had a long conversation yesterday. I'm concerned about the integrity and character that is being left behind with charisma and articulation. What are we going to do about that? How do we address that?

Well, I think the pro part of the problem is we have more tools to express charisma than we've ever had before.

True.

A good Twitter account doesn't mean you're a good leader. Um, a big Twitter account doesn't mean that. And my wife really called me on that with *Doover*. I think *Doover* is the best book I've ever written in part because of the process. And right now what happens is a leader will tweet something that's good, and it does that double hook where it's like, "It's not about big dreams, it's about dreaming big," and you're like, "What?" And you retweet it. But it's not true. If you pull the thread, it's just empty words. And so I had this idea in the book that said, "People always remember your generosity, and they never forget your greed." And my wife said, "That's half true." Like, I know people will tweet that, but it's only half true. And I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "People forget your generosity constantly. That's called being taken for granted. People might remember your greed, but you can't say stuff like that just because it's fun to say." And that's to me where that charisma kind of comes in where people they want to say stuff or grow something, and you get a young leader who doesn't have any life experience on them, and they, you know, everybody gets caught up in the momentum of it, and nobody stops and asks those awkward questions. Like, I feel like we might be over-infatuated with visibility versus a foundation. Like, can we pause for a second and do the slow, patient work of character? Like, the problem is we want everything instantly. How do we use our phones for 10 hours a day, and everything's instant, and not think we'll apply that same thought to everything? So, that that's what I that's what I get worried about. And in my own life, I got a lot of popularity, like niche. I mean, like I can… nobody bothered me in the parking lot today. Um, but I got niche popularity, and you start to believe that, and you start to buy into that, and it's really hard to pull yourself out of that.

Totally. and and and I think you… we talked a little before we went on, uh, on on the conversation here, and we talked a little bit… a lot of swearing… a lot… I don't remember that… maybe that was in your head… um, but but tell… we talked a little bit about how pastors sort of think they can do it all rather than do things well, and Christian leaders as well, and and and maybe there's a little intervention here, but so tell me… tell me… tell me why that matters to you… tell me… explain that and then explain why it matters…

The older I get, the more I realize… because you're so old… you're in your 30s… I mean, like… I… Somebody asked me why I write books about work because I've worked for 17 years. Here's what I've learned. Like, I can't stand when there's a 22-year-old life coach. Like, if I can still smell the sunscreen from your honeymoon, don't write a marriage book. Like, don't do that. And so for me, as I get older, the more I realize it takes me a long time to do things that that that are worth it. Um, and so I think the pressure for pastors sometimes is you start a church, and if it goes well, there's a progression where now you write a book, and now you speak at 10 conferences, and now you have a podcast, and now people are always telling me like you should have a podcast, and I always say so my books can be bad. Like, why do I feel the pressure that I have to do that too? Like, we have limited time and limited creativity and limited energy. And I think the challenge for pastors is that if it takes you 40 hours a week to to pastor a church and a flock, and you add a book-writing career to that and a speaking career to that and a podcast to that, and you're you're fooling yourself if you think that won't impact your ability to lead the flock. And so I think the hard conversation there is what am I going to sacrifice, and what season am I in right now? Um, I say no to a lot of speaking gigs because I've got nine years left with my youngest daughter in the house, and I've got one shot at childhood, and honestly, like I love speaking. I enjoy it. I I feel passionate about it. I feel like God's created me to do some of that. But I know that of the two things, I'll get to do more of that later, but right now this is my moment. And so it's hard for me sometimes to say no to things because there's ego. Like, you go show up, and a thousand people clap for you, and that feels good, and and you get to… you know… and I get offered trips around the world to come speak, and I want to go to Belgium… you know… like, of course I do… Belgium would have been my first choice… but I don't know… I was just thinking bees… like I was going to say like Bulgaria… Belgium… Belgium… feels… they have shoes there I think made of wood… um… but I think that's the problem is that it's hard… like our egos get loud… our our insecurities get loud, and we we have a hard time saying no to things, and I… like… What I say about hustle is that it's an act of focus, not frenzy. Like, it's a… hustle is a scalpel. You go… these these things don't matter. And I… my wife and I had a conversation. I called her and told her about this new opportunity. We had a speaking gig. Um, and I said it'll cover us financially. When you work for yourself, you have that conversation a lot. And she said, "We're fine financially. Like, you keep saying yes to too many things. We're fine." And I said, "But now we'll be finer." And she was quiet. And she said, "Well, just make sure you say enough yeses and earn enough money to buy a new family because this one will still be around." And I wrote that down. And it wasn't an angry conversation. It wasn't a loud conversation. And I'm really glad we have a marriage where she can speak that. Um, but she was right. Like, I was saying yes to a lot of things, and I was missing that my… it was pulling my family apart. And that's that's on my own. Like, I I can be workaholic by myself. I don't need a boss. I don't need a company to make me do that. So I think that's part of the challenge.

For many of us in evangelical churches, the gospel has functioned primarily like the diving board off of which we jumped into the pool of Christianity. It was the entry, right? It's how we began. But once we got past the gospel, then we started to learn all the rules and regulations of of how Christians are supposed to behave. We learn principles for our marriage; uh, how we're supposed to give, what we're not supposed to drink, whether or not Kirk Cameron's going to get left behind. That's the pool in which we we swim. But if that's true, how could Paul make a statement like the one he made to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 2 where he said, "I determined to know nothing among you but Christ and him crucified"? You see, what I want to try to show you in this… in the gospel revolution is that the gospel is not just the diving board off of which we jump into the pool of Christianity. The gospel is the pool itself. The way we grow in Christ is not by growing beyond the gospel, but by growing deeper into the gospel. Because you see, the gospel is able to do in us something that religion is never able to do. And that is it's able to change our heart so that we have a desire for God. God, you see, is not just after obedience; he's after a whole new kind of obedience, an obedience that grows out of desire. Discovering the gospel or rediscovering the gospel has transformed my life in a way that religion has never been able to. And I want to invite you to be a part of of the gospel revolution, of discovering how the gospel can change you and your church and your family in a way that religion never can.

Welcome back. Our guest on today's show is New York Times bestselling author John Akuff. We've got more of that interview in just a minute, but first let's hear from Philadelphia-based pastor Dr. Eric Mason about the gospel and fatherhood.

We need men who who reflect God's design for fatherhood and manhood. And so that comes in so many different facets. Um, because God in calling us to salvation and restoring, um, what Adam and Eve messed up, particularly Adam when the fall happened, when Jesus Christ came, he came to restore us to what the Bible says in Ephesians, to a new humanity or new manity. And in being new men, that automatically leads man to wherever he is playing out the different roles of masculinity, whether it's fatherhood, whether it's in providing… all the different… or husband… all the different facets of manhood… God, when he redeems that man, it's to permeate every single area. And so it's assumed when a man becomes a father, uh, a Christian man, a man who's transformed by the gospel becomes a father, he lives out that reality wherever he lives and dwells. I mean, and so I think it's very, very important for us as men to grow in our trajectory and our recognition of understanding what does it mean to be a father? What does it be mean to be a man? And so as we come in contact with becoming a believer and growing in our faith, we're to be, um, unbelievably engaged in the idea of growing in our masculinity so that we are not taking our P's and Q's from the first Adam. Now, when Christ came, he he turns things back on its head and and puts everything in the right direction so that in every single area of our lives, men based on God's word, um, are able to be, uh, great fathers. And one of the things that I like about what Malachi even talks about that John the Baptist picks back up is that one of the roles of the Messiah was to turn the sons and the father's hearts back to each other. And I think applicationally we can see that in so many places where it's needed now. We literally need the prophetic voice of Malachi and John to be applied based on Jesus's death and resurrection to be infused in how fathers and sons are turned back to each other.

So John, I mean, we've known each other a few years. We've spoken at a few conferences together. But so who are you? I guess who were you and who are you becoming is kind of a weird thing for us because in the in the Christian and evangelical Christian space, you're the *Stuff Christians Like* guy. You you destroy Precious Moments. You really took away my love for Precious Moments figurines by making it a point of of contention and pressure.

Which are the ones without the face?

Yeah. I don't even know. I don't know. There's some with no face. Those are the ones that haunt me.

Do they really?

And I'm sure they're a sponsor. And so maybe this is going to be bleeped… is be like I love them.

Yes.

So the mail will come in. That's John. Make up… at… I don't know. And so, all right. So, so but now you're writing and you're speaking in business venues and settings, and so so first, who are you? And then I want to talk about how you balance your faith in the midst of all that. Are you a business guy now?

Yeah. Um, I I think that's a good question. I think I have a terrible struggle when people say just be yourself because I want to say which one.

Yeah.

Um, I've I've gotten really good at reading a room and understanding what the room needs and how to become that. And so I feel like right now I'm in the process of with God going, "Okay, God, who am I really?" Yeah, like my identity can't be my work. I just took 10 days off of the internet, um, and email, and I got really frustrated in the middle of it because I couldn't check email, and I'd realize that's because work is my identity, right? And those emails make me feel important, right? And if you want to figure out what your identity is, take 10 days off, and then see what screams. Yeah. And so I don't have a good answer to who I am right now. I I would say I'm an author. Yeah. Um, I would say… and my wife… again, this is like the challenges of Jenny Akuff… when Seth Godin had a a really kind endorsement, um, for *Doover*, and Jenny said, are you finally ready to believe you're the writer Seth Goden believes you are? Like, can you admit you're a writer? And so I'm just really starting to admit I'm a writer; um, I care about ideas; um, there's two things I believe about people: that they're capable of more than they think, and it's going to be harder than they think, and if I can convince them of that first part, the hope part, I can talk about the second part. And so, I'm really enjoying writing business books. The last three have been business books. I was at Microsoft a month ago talking to their team out in San Francisco. I'm going to Comedy Central in a couple weeks. And so, I love getting to talk with people about ideas. It's fascinating. Um, it's fascinating.

So, Seth Goden affirmed your writing on the backstage of one conference we were both speaking at. He asked me what I did, and I said, "I have a PhD in mycology, and I'm a mycologist." And he said, "So, is that a thing, or did you just make that up?" So, that's my affirmation from Seth Goden.

No, no pressure. I didn't know you had a PhD.

So, well, there you go.

Well, I try… I try not to mention it every time we have a conversation. Some people have it in like their Twitter name.

Yes. Creepy Spencer PhD or Dr. So and so.

Yeah. It's a little… It's like, "Hi, I've got a PhD. Call me a pastor or don't call me."

Exactly. Much like Jesus.

Exactly. Who do you say I am? It better be Mr. Jesus.

All right. So, let's… So, let's talk some about your Christian faith and how you seek to integrate that. So, you're here at Cross Point Church. Pete Wilson's been here on the show. Friend of both of ours. But um… so great. Great hair. The best hair ever. I mean, I…

And he changes. That's what's… He's like a five-tool player with baseball. Like, he can hit, he can pitch, he can catch. Like, there's multiple hairstyles. It's not just one that he rides for. There should be like a Pete Wilson hair Twitter account.

There might be.

There might be. We should start one. That could be fun.

All right. So… So how do you integrate this? He's speaking at, you know, Microsoft; you're you're at wherever. Um, but you're all… I mean, again, we know you as the *Stuff Christians Like* guy and and other things as well, but we also know you as your commitment to the Lord. We've seen you speak at conferences about your walk with the Lord. How do you balance all that out now?

Well, I think about just doing the best job I can… can do. Um, I think about… Yeah. If you have a surgeon, um, and it's the best surgeon in the state, you don't go, "Hold up, hold up, before the first incision, where do you stand on infant baptism?"

Exactly.

You've been walking with the Lord. Yeah. You've been walking… how's your quiet time? What's your devotional like? What's your journaling? And so I try to really focus on what's the craft. Um, and if it comes up that you know my faith, I I love to get to talk to people about…

That's in relationship. Yeah. Um, you know, in a one-on-one conversation, um, point of view, which is really where I feel like God's calling me. And so he's opened a lot of business doors. And so I'm I'm enjoying walking through those and going, "Okay, God, like you know why this last book is on this shelf?" Like, and but I deliberately—it was years ago—deliberately said, okay, I'm going to change from a Christian living shelf to a business shelf, and I'm going to be faithful to pursue that and faithful to ask God questions in that and the Holy Spirit. And so I have a lot more questions than I have answers. Um, but I do find myself going, okay, God, you know where I'm going and why I'm going there.

Do people—like you know we see in Christian music, some Christian musician wants to be on a different shelf, a different genre. Um, LRae once said in an interview on our show, he he said, you know, Christian is my uh is my is my faith, not my musical genre. Uh, and and and so and yet a lot of people don't like that. Did you get push back from people saying, you know, we want you on the Christian living shelf, not on the business shelf? No. Uh, it's been really it's been really fun. Um, I think people have been really accepting of the idea of, you know, if I worked for 17 years, here's ideas about work.

Now, here's what I'd say: I'd never write a business book that talked about um figuring out your purpose because I couldn't leave God out of that. Okay? I would, you know, it would be dishonest of me. What I've learned is that I can go to conferences that are for artists and for writers and musicians, and they're willing to accept anything you talk about if it's authentically who you are and you're not trying to change them in that moment. And so if you want to stand on stage and go, I'm I'm Buddhist or I'm Christian, and it's you sharing your heart honestly. And it's not you going, I don't care who you are in the crowd. You need to be like me. And I don't have—like I get really frustrated when we we don't even know somebody's last name and we try to talk about their soul with them. Like it's an intimate thing. You—like God inside of you, the Holy Spirit inside of you is an intimate thing. And it's easier for us to use shame or pressure than it is to do the slow burn of love. Like love is messy. Loving your neighbor and being in relationship with them and knowing this might take five years of me caring about them versus yelling Bible verses at people that you see randomly and have no—and then we go, it's so weird they didn't convert—like no, it's not—you didn't invest anything in their life. They wouldn't listen to any idea you shared because you didn't love them. And so that's that's kind of how I look at it.

But I, you know, when I do an event and it's for a business, I just try to share the best ideas about, okay, when I worked at Home Depot and we are opening a new store every 42 hours and we are in the middle of this huge success. Here's things I learned about management and leadership, and I think they apply to your business. So that's that's kind of how I look at it. Makes perfect sense. Um, pastors, church leaders, remember that's going to be a lot of our audience, a lot of our listeners will be Christians in churches. You're—I didn't know you're used to me. Yeah. And you have a PhD. I'm a pastor's kid. They're pretty much they they do line right up and I'm good with that. I'm good with that.

Um, so, so when you look at pastors and church leaders and people who are listening or believers in churches, what advice would you—and maybe they're not in business, maybe they're not at a doover point, but there are some things that you have articulated on many occasions that are just applicable to being better leaders, being more faithful leaders, being more fruitful leaders. What would you say to us? Um, I think as leaders, I'd say to your team, can you tell me the truth? I mean, if you're leading a group of people, if you're a pastor, I would say to them, can you tell me the truth? Like hard truths, are you able to? And then you'd have to ask that nine times because the first four they're going to go, "Totally, you're amazing. Of course we can." And so like little things like that where you go, "Do I have an environment where people can be honest with me? Can they can they tell me the truth?"

Um, I was thinking today about I had an idea when I worked with Staples to sell office products and vending machines. And this is about 10 years ago and nobody was doing it, but at airports it would have made sense for lease rates. At colleges, kids didn't have cars. School store closes at 4:00. Business travelers need a single-use item. And I couldn't get any momentum on it. And so because I was a young dumb 23-year-old, I just called up the largest vending machine company in America and they flew out a representative. And that poor guy when he got there could probably tell I had no power. But it was this idea and they ended up doing it four years later. And so what I'd say to organizations is, do you have a channel where the crazy young person can share the idea? Is there a process for that? How do you how do you foster that? How do you encourage that? I mean, we always say like there's no bad ideas, but then everybody in the room looks at the most powerful person and tries to say slightly less crazy ideas than they said, and there's this tension. And so, those are things that whether you're at a business, whether you're at a church, I'd say, what what's the environment you're creating? Um, and who who can tell you the truth. We talked about that. Um, who's in your life? I think it's it comes down to relationship. Again, the older I get, the more I realize community matters most. Um, and that we're designed for it and we're built for it. And it's funny, we we know Jesus needed it. And it's like, ah, he needed it, but he didn't have Twitter. Like, I can build my own little isolated phone kingdom. Like, that's to me the greatest challenge of the phone is that it allows you to manage relationships and hold people at an arms length and not be in real relationship, but it gives you some degree of thought that you're in relationship. So, the more time I spend online, the more I realize offline matters more.

For resources mentioned in today's show, be sure to visit edstetzer.com. And as always, while you're there, check out some of the past episodes. Thanks so much for joining us. We hope you have a great week.