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[Music] Today is very interesting. I have here K Eugene. [Music] I'm from mainland China. I was born and raised in Beijing. Then I went on to study in the US for a dozen years and got my um PhD finally in Boston. [Music] There is a lot of miscommunication between the West and China. >> I I honestly fundamentally do not see us and China necessarily at loggerheads with each other. [Music] This is Poland podcast. I'm in London and today is very interesting. I have here K Eugene who is an economist and uh um an expert. So I'm really lucky and honored that she's here talking to speaking to us. You can you briefly tell the audience what you do and your career? >> Sure, Pearl. Oh, well, it's a pleasure to be here with you. Um, you're so well known in so many circles. So, it's a privilege to talk about US China relations and uh the rising importance of geopolitics which is also uh impacting the art world and and >> the art was definitely with this tariff 147 everywhere. >> Oh my gosh. >> Present clear and present danger. Um my background is that I'm from mainland China. I was born and raised in Beijing. I was an exchange student to US high school and then I went on to study in the US for a dozen years and got my um PhD finally in Boston and then I became uh an assistant professor at London School of E of Economics um here in London and uh you know ever since I've been trying to work on issues that bridge the East and the West um but really starting from point of view of facts of evidence um from a macroeconomic point of view. Um, but my latest book uh called the new China playbook beyond socialism and capitalism uh tries to offer a different lens to look through. I think the world if only using a very narrow Western lens um is is a paints a rather dangerous future and a future where collaboration is is not so possible. So uh the work that I've been doing, the research that I've been doing macro um on recently on US China technology competition uh uh is really um about trying to speak the facts, right? Tell the truth given a different perspective. >> You live uh more than half your life not in China, right? So do you consider yourself as Chinese? >> That's a great question. I haven't been asked this question uh in any of my interviews and I've done plenty for for the book promotion but um the short answer is very much so. Um not only because I spend four to six months a year in China still my work is there but culturally I feel so so very much connected to to China. I do love the country. I think for all for all the challenges and for for all the the the fallacies of any system, it's been a wonderful country that has done so much for its people and yet I feel very global. I know it's such a cliche to talk about the globalists and I I'm writing actually another book about um how about how the globalists failed to see the real world. Uh, >> I love that. >> Uh, because I'm a big believer that localism, global a globalization anchored in deep true localism. So, so much grounded into the local network with a local spirit is so important on so many levels for not just to say >> my whole argument about globalization is it manufacture a homogeneous culture. >> Yeah. So, so when you see you know Americanism, I mean you know Americanization you have the whole world with a Hollywood movie everybody is has has become part American. So this culture thing with globalization I thought globalization maybe is good for trading for trade but when you look at culture it's disaster. >> Yeah. Well, there's now a big push back and this is what my next project is about. It's about first of all this massive diffusion and distribution of opportunity at the local level all around the world. It's no longer just about the core West versus the rest of the world. The core versus the periphery. I think it's uh an astounding framing that we still use. What do you mean the periphery? Nigeria, China, India, Brazil, the middle powers, Turkey and all of that creating their local stratosphere and then culturally so rich the push back right in film, in art, um in fashion. Uh, I'm I'm also part of a luxury group that I know very well. Uh a lot of the fashion trends are defined there and with this greater confidence of the local culture. I think number one to push back against this homogenization. Second is the growing confidence that's afforded by this um vast distribution of opportunity there. So all that is to say I feel Chinese but I am true at heart a globalist who's interested in the grounded local events that are that are happening. >> Do you see yourself as a bridge? I hope that I have contributed uh in my small part to a better understanding of China at least and I think that things like my book has done a little bit to do that but I think there's so many people in my generation especially from my generation the younger generation who is more familiar with a multicultural world multilingual environment they have a a softer approach more humane approach towards communicating with the West so I think we all have a role to play in that part. >> Let's let's begin to talk about when you were in high school. So you you went from China um to her high school which is completely a different system. You know American system even British system is very very different. And with China which your Chinese education standard must be much higher than and than the American standard. When you go there, when you went to study in American high school, you must be I mean eighth grade throughout, right? >> I I did graduate with the highest GPA, >> of course, >> in my rather um well-established high school in the US. But you know what was really fascinating? It totally was a new thing for me because the first day I step in history class, he sat down and said, "It's all about questioning authority." Question. >> Love this for a Chinese girl. >> For I was like what do you mean question authority mean what do you mean question your textbook? >> Love this. >> So that was a complete eye opener you know you know what I studied in history when I studied history in China it was all about dates and facts and memorization when I studied history in this Mr. Devito's class. It was all about thinking about drawing patterns about drawing patter patterns myself, not looking at what the history book tells you, but but piecing together firsthand evidence and questioning authority and having the openness of the mind. That was what was just really surprising. Don't be judgmental, you know, be open-minded. And I find that so thrilling but also so ironic years later when we've lost that in the American mainstream especially now. >> Yes, that's what I'm saying. Now having a open mind, not being judgmental and questioning um authority and questioning you know um what's around you established things. It's it it was it was really an eye openening. Even though you know the Chinese system was very different and made you master taking exams very well, it completely opened my mind to thinking about things in a very different way. Using your brain to think logically or to >> not just to follow >> to not to follow and to ask questions. You see, I think I think going forward uh with um arrival AI and so forth, it's less about knowing the answers more about how to ask ask questions. >> The asking questions in our culture confusions. I mean with a confusious study, Confucious philosophy, you are only supplied to comply and obey. You're not supposed to question. >> So this is I I think the Asians way whether it is Chinese or Korean or Japanese because you have this confusious culture. >> Yeah. I don't know the Japanese or Korean culture so well. But in China there's a really interesting phenomenon which is on the one hand is very confusious. On the one hand, they are very good at taking exams, standardized exam. On the other hand, they're also extremely entrepreneurial. >> That's very different. >> Right? It's a different thing. But they're trying to find loopholes. And just to put it in a very, you know, funny way, they identify opportunities very quickly and they think about how to solve that problem or get around it or tackle things in very creative ways. And that's not following either. That's not because so they have both. But I think it's also because in Japan and Korea they're very deep rooted in this >> in this culture. Even the mannerism >> the way that they and they behave they're more they're more following I mean they're more confusious following >> and then China I think China is very interesting in in all that. So then you went to Harvard >> right and then in Harvard must be very competitive. It was interesting that when the the time when I was going to Harvard as an undergrad, um there was at most one or two uh mainland Chinese students. It >> must be not like now >> 2000 to 2004. Now there are dozens if not more of course of course. >> Um so I think that's a big change. You know what was really interesting is that and this is I'm living the the the transformation of China. you know I I get to the US people's image of China was very different from the reality you know quite dark quite oppressive kind of that kind of environment where actually the Chinese were bidding for the Olympics and they were undergoing undertaking the the most radical reforms uh uh in modern >> history very very optimistic about the future for good reason because growth was really um you can feel the growth in the air meanwhile in the US it was slightly still the 1980s um kind of image. But then when I got to to to college, you know, there were quite a few students ch taking Chinese Mandarin as as a as a course. And then by the time I graduated, some of them wanted to go work in China. So that goes to show how things very quickly changed um because of China's rise, because of China's because people uh uh knew about the dynamism in the Chinese economy. But isn't that in early 2000 you know China was hot was really hot because it's hot and therefore the art is beingcomes very hot it's hot and people wants to do business wants to invest in China and there's great hope and US China relationship was really really tight and of course then everything changes right? >> Did you feel I mean at the time when you were there it was really the best friendship of you know the best collaboration between the US and China. >> Honestly I did Pearl because first of all so many Chinese students went to study in the US. Um I was one of the beneficiaries of a great deal of you know American generosity to international students and the idea that there has to be exchange right there has to be peopleto people connections and we have to understand China and so forth. Actually the high school uh principal that brought me uh over to the US um wanted to do that because they wanted he wanted the school to know a different side of China. So that that kind of openness of mind was just was just you know really remarkable. I think a lot of a lot of things great things came out of it honestly because uh Americans were doing business in China. Um the Chinese >> a lot of American investment yeah and they did very very well. you know, you search for growth opportunities once your opportunities kind of plateau in, you know, so it actually made a lot of sense to go into an emerging market that was developing very quickly and compared to other emerging markets had really radically different level of macroeconomic and political stability, right? >> And there's also growth in >> opportunities. Yeah, stability was really crucial. Exchange stability, uh, investment stability and all that. So um but also Chinese scientists came to the US and they they worked for universities they contributed to uh to to to biotech and and and the technology uh uh uh companies. But you know even fast forward if you think about it today it's kind of ironic that from what I I know um many of the people on the core research team of open AI are of Chinese heritage. >> Yes. Yes. So, you know, >> and even Mingshan invented the fingerprint recognition. It's Chinese. >> So, it's um it's it's slightly difficult to fathom how you really can, you know, kind of break that that link, right? That that is deep it's deeply embedded especially in the innovation knowledge network and has contributed so much to even America's uh technological progress. Obviously, China benefited hugely from trading with the US, working with the US. Um, and China rose. Now, uh, but but just more on a human level, the Chinese really admire the US. I know they really admire they were. >> You can see you can see these big roads, big supermarket. >> Yes. The American dream. It was totally on every single Chinese person. >> American dream. >> My generation or at least the generation a little bit older than me, their whole life dream was go to the US, study and get a job there and stay there forever. Now those who actually stayed there now regret it because their compatriots who went back to China couldn't stay in the US. Actually many of them ended up doing better. >> Opportunities in China have grown so tremendously that uh the Chinese students even with the best education background they could have stayed in the US and many of these top companies chose to go back to make it there. Right? So that's voting with their feet. Um, but honestly the two countries were not direct competitors. I'd even argue that today apart from some of the core technological areas there's a lot more complimentarity than we are admitting. >> Okay, let's start from that. Okay, then you saw that China was growing and then you came to London right? So what makes you stay in London instead of going back to America? Um, this is a personal preference. I wouldn't speak on behalf of other Chinese of my generation or my background. I just love London for the multicultural um background. >> I think London is truly multicultural. >> It's truly international. I think it's more international, more global than the United States, many of the cities in the United States. I think that um, you know, it's the thing about being in London is that you can be yourself from anywhere and you can fit in. I always felt in the US you kind of had to be more American to fit in. >> Um, but in London you can really just kind of be yourself and again I think less judgmental. Um, but >> No, London is not judgmental. >> I I think I think >> France is judgmental. London is not judgmental. >> London London I think uh British are more self-centered. >> They don't really care. >> In a very in Yes. In a very self-deprecating way as well. Exactly. >> Um, but also I'm I'm a big fan of culture. Uh, my father's a Shakespearean scholar. Uh, I'm a classic pianist and um, I obviously appreciate art as well. And so you you see the confluence of the art world, the business world, the political world, academia is fantastic. London School of Economics, one of the best economics department uh in the world was was fantastic. It was it was you were in the in the wider world rather than in a bubble or in the ivory tower where you saw only a certain part of the world. And so here it, you know, even though London is a great cosmopolitan city, it did open my eyes again uh to the realities of a more complex world. >> There is a lot of miscommunication between the West and China. This this miscommunication is really pretty deep because I think each of of the country should have someone who really understand what they want and then later on I find out I mean the West become intimidated by China what you know I think it's about a whole misunderstanding about each of the nations. The misunderstanding or the misgivings is really at the core of the problem. I I honestly fundamentally do not see US and China necessarily at loggerheads with each other because China is not an imperialist country. China is I think it's a totally wrong comparison to put China in the bucket of Iran and North Korea and Russia which is what Washington DC is doing. Um, this misgiving goes so deep on so many levels but even culturally right? You know, I remember the time when I arrived as a high school student, you know, in China, the the the thing that you want to do as a student is to be number one. >> Yeah. Of course. >> Right. You're proud to be number one or you strive to be number one. Whereas in an American high school, you would never ever want to say that you want to be number one. >> That would be a fatal mistake. And um and even though many people wanted to be number one, they will find it. They won't say it. Right? So that's a um a cultural thing. And I also remember, you know, I talk about my parents often. You know, I talk about my parents and what their desires even though I don't always listen to them. I mentioned my parents once in front of my Harvard thesis adviserss and they kind of drop their jaws and like, why are you mentioning your parents? Um, and all my Chinese students in my in the London School of Economics, they sit in my office. We're discussing your future plans. Almost 85 to 90% of them start with well my parents think that I should blah blah blah and so it's a very it's a very cultural thing I'm an extremely independent person I do refer to my parents I do refer to my family but I think just the relationship with authority is so different you know >> and also it's very respectful >> it's very respectful >> and also you always want to mention your yeah but this is not blind submission >> no they use it in the West as something of patri, you know, it's a paternal independent or they they they attribute to authoritarianism. It's not it's not that it's a respect. >> Yeah. Respect, >> but it's not blind submission, right? It's even, you know, it's it's more it's a more fluid relationship. It's more balanced, a more harmonious relationship. So, we do refer to our families quite often. And see I I so I think that this is just a simple example of how deep this misunderstanding runs. And I think that a lot of the you know the traveling helped to convey a different side of China a more humane side of China because a lot of the misus misgivings lie in the political system right and the role of the government. Again, if we come back to this idea of what's your relationship with authority, it's not necessarily that we're submitting to the government or we're being submissive or um uh uh you know being oppressed by anybody. It's it's a contract. It's an implicit contract that we've had for thousands of years where um in exchange for security um the government is held accountable for your welfare and simple things like that. Of course, it's more complicated, but you see, I think this is at the core of the the USChina tension is that they think we have a political system that is oppressive. >> No, I think the big the the problem with America is that they think their system is the best. >> Everybody has to follow their system. >> So, it's like Bush say it either you are what uh for me or against me. You know it's it doesn't you know >> it's a complex world. >> It's not an open-minded that you know you have a different system, you have a different culture. I'm coming I respect your culture. I respect your system. It's not >> this is not the way that US as a hegemonic power has looked onto the world. I think China's world view you know against their their their their their for all of the things that it needs to change and I think there are to be more to be in more harmony with the world still China believes in coexistence of differences uh differences. >> I I think that's the most important thing. >> Yeah. Well, this is not this is not looking at using one lens to look at the world and again in my book I tried to show that there's not just one model that works right? There's no just one principle that um that has to be, you know, that the only one. And uh that the multiplicity of religion, of political systems, of economic models, of um uh different forms of of institutional arrangements can coexist. And until we recognize that, until we acknowledge the coexistence of a beautiful tapestry, a mosaic of of cultures uh and and systems, can we then go on to say how are we going to work together? Right? If you use one lens to look at the world and expect everybody to be the same, that's not going to work. >> I always say that today we have to celebrate differences. >> Yeah. And uh and even as we talk about democracy versus non-democracy, I think this is a again the wrong framing really. >> I think so. I think so. I think democracy works in certain ways but but also democracy I think so said democracy you need to have everybody who have this similar education similar intellectual power before you really can can have true democracy. Yeah, I think that we we should discuss more about what makes a successful society, right? Rather than put labels because the labels are not working. Um, the GCC countries, China, all these middle powers, big powers rising, doing so well successfully, many of them are not democracies. What makes success as a society successful? I think their principle their lessons to be drawn there rather than carving the world into different spheres that I think are so blurred in the first place and really not helpful. >> But I mean America today is is no better than than Britain during the colonialism period. It's exactly >> and it's being very >> they not helping themsel shooting itself in the foot. >> Yeah. With this terrorist with kicking out illegal immigrants trying to I mean arresting judge and all that >> it's so shocking that this happens in America telling telling the universities >> who is for >> yeah the last place in the world you think that this would happen but you know telling universities that you can't take in certain students >> and then and then they want to control the hiring and and then look at the visa I mean come on. >> And then the imperialist drive as we we see a glimpse of the end of Russia, Ukraine. Now it's what the United States, the imperialist, right? >> There is deeprooted misunderstanding between the West and the East. If the West does not understand the position of China, they find intimidating. >> Um, I think this confidence, right? Um, certainly it's founded on something which is very successful economic growth. Of course, China is not really a rich country yet, right? >> So maybe that came a little bit early. Maybe the pronouncement that China is going to dominate the world in technology >> didn't go down so well with Washington DC. >> Um >> you immediately create competitors, right? So I think there's there's some of that but also I think actually even on the business level if you think about it American businessmen European businessmen used to make money in China >> and over time they made less and less and less money. Okay. And I think that is also a factor because they were the biggest proponents proponents of keeping uh engagement with China, keeping China open with with the US. um and they made less money. Now >> part of it they blame on the discriminatory um uh policies of the Chinese government. I think there was a bit of >> is that true? >> In the past there was a bit of truth to it although not completely true uh because again we've looked at the data actually foreign companies got on average more subsidies than domestic companies domestic private companies and domestic s so stateown enterprises also got more subsidies than domestic private companies because a lot of the the foreign companies always get yeah a lot of foreign companies benefited from these export subsidies because they were mainly exporting to the rest of the world um there was maybe not the same level uh uh playing field especially when you had the stateowned enterprises um uh involved. So I I can totally see that there was definitely it was definitely there but the important thing is that you fast forward many years later you take away these subsidies and by the way a lot of these subsidies are not in place anymore. China has become so fiercely competitive. >> Yes. >> And it's cutthroat competition of the most ferocious kind in the world. It's very very difficult for American European companies to survive unless you really truly bring something different onto the table right? So there are many many successful companies Apple being one of them Estee Lauder etc but a lot of them were just pushed out also by domestic competition I think it's I think the expiration date has long passed when you still blame Chinese subsidies on on things because 95% of the manufacturing sector uh follow market trends meaning there's no overinvestment there's no government intervention. So I think that's an old conversation, but I just think that if China was able to open up more quickly more sectors for foreign companies to make money, especially in the financial sector where the US can, you know, really benefit in the service industries, I think things would have been a little bit better. >> But having said all that, when I look at the trade imbalance, because that trade imbalance, they did not take into account of the surface industry. If we take into account the service industry, would there still be a trade imbalance? Because >> US runs a trade surplus with China on the services. >> Yeah. >> But you see the the it's all very politicized. Exactly. It's all about manufacturing jobs, which is very hard to understand why Trump is so interested in low low-end manufacturing being brought back to the United States. >> Because he wants employment because he got the the the vote, right? >> Yes. Every steel job that they saved in Trump 1.0, they lost in the tens of thousands of other sectors employment because when steel prices go up, all the downstream sectors actually were worse off. >> Yeah. >> And so for the tens of thousands of steel jobs they save, they lost a lot more on net. But again, it's a political problem, right? We all understand that this is you know this brings more efficiency maybe more distributional consequences but um but um China's manufacturing dominance is not because of the subsidies right? Yes, maybe subsidy in the beginning helped but the level of competition the level level of efficiency in terms of supply chain >> efficiency and also I just read now China has all the robots is the I mean is >> 50% of the mobile robots is you know exports is accounted for by China. So China has a different level on scale of efficient supply. >> I was told that even I read even that America would take back the manufacturing they would not have the output and the efficiency and the quality of China. >> Right. So, so, so the dominance lies in so many different factors and I think it's just years of experience and scale and supply chain coordination which China has mashed. Think about the company Shein. Unfortunately, it's now it's not exempt to the to this uh tariffs, but so prices have doubled, but they've doubled from I don't know $8 per dress to $16. But it it comes from efficiency of supply chain. Trump in many ways is right about certain things even though the strategy and tactics are wrong. Uh, he pointed out some of these problems. Um, and it's a lot of it is a domestic US problem, right? But but China faces a similar challenge in terms of how to take globalization and how how to be part of it that leads to more balance. Right? It's in the end it's about rebalancing. It's not about maximizing efficiency. Right now, China has been maximizing efficient and you're absolutely right. It has benefited so many different countries and companies because everybody got things cheaper, right? >> At least it helped them with the inflation >> for sure. If you look at again look at the data, US inflation the last 20 years, all the inflation comes from services, not from manufacturing. And this is because of China. So, but it's not well recognized and well appreciated because you go to Walmart. Yes. Now, you know that some of this is is is made in China or you always knew that >> majority is made in China. >> You always knew that, but you just didn't really internalize how much it kept the prices down, right? Uh, but you focus on the tens of thousands of steel jobs or manufacturing jobs that were displaced. Now, the US consumers are going to feel it because back to school in September, all these schools, >> everything will be Yeah. And even toys, all the pencils, everything. >> Yeah. I think that we and I'm an economist and the first thing that we economists have to think about is we need to incorporate some of the more human aspects into the whole efficiency argument, right? And that's never been featured in the model. So, it's not only about balance within countries, it's balance across countries. It's about China figuring out how to be in a harmonious relationship with all else while um offering the efficiencies and and the innovations it can but holding back a bit. Right. The new generation really shows a much softer more humans humane side of China that when we talk about the misgivings I think we do need to focus on them. Um, if you see it through their lens, their eyes, actually, China's fascinating for the reasons that you you mentioned, the convenience, but also the very tech innovationoriented, very futuristic, very funny, humorous, you know. Um, I I remember there's a there's um an influencer um an American black American influencer Speed um gathers about 25 million views uh on his you know trips to China's second tier cities. Chongqing I mean they were so amazed by what China's like. Chongqing looks like Shanghai looks like any other >> I think with the mountain and the sea. It looks like Hong Kong. Well, it said it looks like many cosmopolitan and I remember there's um there's a person who's selling >> his goose, right? His delicious goose and has been following this guy for months day in day out just to get more publicity. I mean, it's really genuine and they became the best of friends without speaking the same the common language. But this is this is the real China, right? This is Chinese people. Chinese people and their their love of you know doing things their their their their high spiritness all this >> and their hardworking >> hardworking but you know with a very interesting view of life in the world >> I think all of this is not captured uh in in any of the state-to-state discussions but China does have this softer and more humane side that that doesn't get appreciated I think most people who travel to China who've been there changed their minds about China from absolutely from reading the newspapers. Right. >> My next question for you is one child policy. >> Yes. >> I read that you actually did an analysis on the impact of one child policy. Now what we know is India is still with a huge younger generation. Um, the factories they still using a lot of hands. They you know the labor is not a problem. Then you see in Japan um the aging people is more than the younger people they are having problems. >> China again you have the aging population. So now of course China they changed the whole policy that you can have. >> A little too late. >> Yeah. A bit too late. Right. So how are you going to see this one job policy affecting the public finance >> and the economy China economy? I think that aging demographics is obviously what people believe to be one of the biggest challenges for China's economy. I actually stand in the other camp of the minority who that don't believe that this is a first order issue. >> Okay. >> I believe it's an issue I don't think it's a first order issue. >> Um, before going to the social issues which I think there are um more interesting consequences than the economic one. Uh, in China you you still have hundreds of millions of undereducated, underemployed people living in the countryside. >> Exactly. And some of them are still illiterate as well. >> Exactly. And and that's still part of a potential labor force that can be much more productive and can add to the economy. Um, so China isn't really in a point where it's like Japan and Europe in terms of the labor force contribution to the to the economy. I'm much more about productivity than about number of people, right? >> Okay. >> Um, if you look at what AI is doing, even looking at the last 30 years of manufacturing, but labor productivity rising by 10 to 15% per year, labor force potentially shrinking by 0.1.5% per year. You know, >> it's about how efficient you become. And um, so the younger generation at least until this point are still earning a lot more than the previous generation in the same age. So it's because of the rising opportunity. >> Um, I also think that we don't know what's going to happen with arrival of AI, right? Robotics, automation. >> True. Absolutely. um, we're worried about not enough jobs for people and at the same time we're worried about you know kind of um too few people in China and there is a little bit of a paradigm a contradiction there so I think that with AI we don't even really know what it means to work in the future right? What how we're going to spend our our our day our everyday life you know doing things so it's it's hard to say economically it's a clear path because I think that the arrival of AI this time around is so fundamentally transformative even more so than the industrial revolution of the 19th century. I agree absolutely because it changed the whole I mean the whole formula the whole protocol everything chang >> everything um, the the the the potential is so vast is vast I think we're you know talking about this demographic pressure in the next I don't know 20 30 years yeah but you know lots of things are are changing. >> Oh, since you're talking about AI and technology the general thing is um when I went to China um people say Oh, America is stopping us from growing and uh we could have conquered the world. We couldn't do it. We could have been number one in the world and now we are being controlled. We could not share the best technology. Blah blah blah blah. >> No, I I think this is a your comment of Yeah, I think this is a a false argument. Number one, um, I if anything I think um the export controls and the tech restrictions accelerated China's development. If we look throughout >> Absolutely. Accelerated. Look at Deep Seek. >> Exactly. Deep Seek uh came out under pressure. A lot of the biggest technological breakthroughs happen under crisis and pressure, not when times are really good. Um, actually if you look at the Chinese semiconductor industry um when the Chinese decided to import semiconductors from Americans the whole industry stalled for 20 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because I was told >> told by and by some of the engineers and some of the company they said that >> they can buy from why they still still have to pay R&D. Why do we have to invest in R&D? Now all of a sudden they have >> and in the last few years the the improvement has been so rapid. It's been so rapid it would have not been possible uh without these controls in place. If you look at the Shanghai Semicon uh conference I'm told by the experts the degree of domestic capacity now is enormous with very few gaps uh really left um in between. And I think in a very short amount of time, China would be most most um mostly able to satisfy domestic but also with the help of Japan and Korea which is not only of the US camp. This would have not been possible at that speed uh were not for these controls but also it's also elicited almost a wartime mobilization. >> Yes. I do and and a whole whole venation program right everyone's on it. Alib Baba all the private companies they all want to tackle the the biggest choke points to Chinese technology. Um, but again if we look back throughout history it's always under pressure that these kind of breakthroughs happen very often. But even with Europe right now the Trump and the wakeup call they have to do more. They have to do more investment defense and technology. Um, but in China it's actually really really happening because there was an a real existential crisis a few years ago that China would be cut out from the critical tech supply chain. I think it's much less concerned uh now. So I don't agree with that statement but also um, it's still up to China, right? If we look at most of the policies whether it's China, the UK or America, the worst policies are always self-inflicted. >> It's true. It's never coming in. It's never coming from abroad, right? They can do a bit. >> Sometimes they can actually help you um against their will, >> but the most dramatic bad policies are always self-inflicted. So, I think only China can stop China's rise, just like the US, right? The US is its biggest threat to progress if I may say so. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Ku. It's such an interesting conversation. I could have talked I could speak with you another hour. >> Yes. Likewise. >> I don't want to keep you here. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. Thank you. [Music]