The Islamic Conquest Of Europe & Why It Was COVERED UP! w/ Raymond Ibrahim

Is the missed attack after is the missed attack? How we might find social cohesion today in Europe? We got to go back to the beginning to Muhammad. Now, here's the first interesting thing that few people understand. From 632, the year Muhammad died, one century later, 732, Muslims are now in the middle of Europe fighting and abducting people and destroying churches. They found what they want to claim is this great time of tolerance and beauty, but they're acting like ISIS on steroids. They symbolically were trying to denigrate Christianity but we don't talk about that. In one century from M's death they conquered three-quarters of the original Christian world permanently. This is what's building up towards the first crusade.

So, uh, then let's go to the crusades. You hear the word crusade. It's such a diabolical evil thing, evil venture. Now, what they don't tell you, okay, is one, that's how effective they've been. They've gotten that narrative to become dominant. Maybe we just stick with 2025 and what's happening. We've had some reports from Congo, Nigeria. I think every week I have to read about dozens of Christians being killed. And of course, the media, they, they tell you, "No, no, this is a, this is about climate change." But they actually do that. I've noticed and I've been following this and writing about it a lot. Muslim persecution of Christians has been one of those most no topics. We don't want to, we don't want to go there. Make it relevant to what's going on in that because you're sort of given a historical context. Germany, Muslims are going to be like 40% of the population. I mean, at that point, yeah, it's going to be like before. You hear from Raymond Ibrahim. I ask if you want to support this show, all you have to do is press subscribe. You do that, I can have more phenomenal guests like Raymond exploring the issues you want to hear about and that the mainstream media won't touch. Remember also, if you go over to winstonall.co.uk, UK, you will get exclusive videos, content, and ad-free viewing. But without further ado, Raymond Ibrahim.

Raymond Ibrahim, thank you so much for coming to speak with me on this show. There's two topics I'm keen to get into with you. You've done an amazing documentation of the persecution of Christians by Muslims in Africa and around the world, and you've been doing that for some time. You're also a prolific historian, uh, documenting not only Islam in Europe and but Islam around the world. Um, before we get into those things, I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about yourself and tell viewers about yourself and also why you call yourself cancelled on your YouTube bio.

Uh, well, thanks Winston. It's great to be with you. A little bit back, background on myself is, um, I'm of Egyptian heritage descent, Coptic specifically, and my family left Egypt, I think, in the very late 60s. I was born here, um, '73 and, um, so it kind of gave me an advantage. I was bilingual. I grew up speaking Arabic of a certain dialect, anyway. Then I studied it formally in English and obviously I had an interest in sort of the nexus of Western civilization and Islam because of my Christian background. I sort of gravitated to Western civilization, obviously. Um, but I was very familiar with Islam and Egypt and my family and the background. So I've always been interested in that. And then in college, uh, I actually majored in history with a focus on, actually, I started off with classics, but then I delved into the Middle Ages, medieval Islam, and, uh, Byzantium, Eastern Roman Empire. And, um, you know, you may know the name Victor Davis Hanson. He was my professor, actually, back way back then. We're still good friends. He writes forwards for my books. Great guy. Um, but, you know, he also got me interested in military history because before he became the prolific commentator about everything, he was a military historian. And so my first, my master's thesis was about the first major battle between Christian Muslim armies, major battle, the Battle of Yarmouk in 636. So that was my MA thesis. And then since then, I've been, um, very much, I continued being very interested in the history. But then I, long story short, after 9/11, I got another, I went to Georgetown University and I was accepted there. And I also attended a PhD program, but I ended up leaving. I had straight A's because I got a full-time job at the Library of Congress. And then I got a major book deal. Uh, my first book was the Al-Qaeda Reader. I actually came across writings by Al-Qaeda in early 2000 when I was working at the Library of Congress that had not even been cataloged. Um, so we actually that was turned into my first book that came out. And that's why, because of all that full-time job and writing a book, I essentially couldn't, I was also told, Victor Hanson made a good point. He told me, if you know, you're already got what most people who are trying to get a PhD want, okay, like book deals and you're also at a point with what you've said and the position you've taken. Even if you get a PhD, nobody's going to hire you. Yeah. Because they're all left-wing universities and you're, you know, you're just, they're not, they don't want your views there. So that was another reason for me not to even bother with it. Um, and then soon after, around 2008 or nine, I essentially resigned from the Library of Congress. It was a great job. I was like a kid in a playground because I had access to all these very arcane, esoteric books. But, um, and I've been a fellow at various think tanks since then, uh, including the Gatestone Institute, the Middle East Forum. Um, I was for a while at the Hoover Institute, etc. And, um, that's it. Since then, I've also kind of gravitated back to my, to my original academic interests, which is history. So my more recent books, one of them in 2013, I wrote Crucified Again, Exposing Islam's New War on Christians, which pertains to what we'll be talking about. It's about the persecution of Christians in the modern era. And then in 2018, I wrote Sword and Scimitar, 14 Centuries of War Between Islam and the West, which you might call my, um, magnum opus because it's like, this is what I was studying for over 20 years. It's the continuation of the Battle of Yarmouk. So that's chapter one, Battle of Yarmouk. And then I go through all the other major encounters and wars all the way up until America's first war with Islam. It's first war as a nation, actually, the Barbary Wars. Um, and that book's done very well and it's been very controversial. You know, I was invited by the War, US Army War College to give a talk about it and then, I don't know if you know CAIR, the Council on, they went ballistic and the Council of Council on Americans and Islamic Relations, which is like a brotherhood wing and, um, Muslim Brotherhood. Yeah. Muslim Brotherhood and, uh, they actually got me, um, they shamed the US Army War College into rescinding my invitation by calling them racists and I was a racist and a white supremacist and it was just so childish and immature. The US Army War College basically buckled and, but the good news is, a lot of people when they, some media reported on it, a lot of people actually came on my side and totally shamed them and parents wanted to withdraw their kids out of it and several congressmen sent a letter to Trump about it and, you know, all kinds of organizations got so they reinvited me, uncanceled. And yeah, I was uncanceled and if anything, they told me it was the second largest event since a Buzz Aldrin event. They, yeah, thanks to CAIR, right, for creating all that controversy. Everyone wants to see what this is about, right? All publicity is good publicity, it turns out. Yeah. So that's, anyway, that's a little aside. And then, um, the other book I wrote, which is also very popular, also historical, Defenders of the West, the Christian Heroes Who Stood Against Islam, where I just look at, uh, eight biographies of kings and warriors and warlords who actually fought against Islam and people really like it because it's, it's such a different story than what you're told. One of them is Dracula, Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler, who of course is the most demonized and people are like, "How would you put him in the book?" But if you look at the sources, yeah, he was, he identified as a Christian Orthodox and, um, he fought against Islam and he was, and he was basically, um, the impalement and we can even get into that. That was his way of, it was a tit for tat. That's what they were doing. He learned that as a hostage of the Ottomans, the Turks. He watched them impale his own people. So this was his own way of fighting them back, anyway. So, and that gives you an idea of so much of what I try to do is, um, give context and correctives to what we think we know about history. And a lot of it, we don't like the Crusades. Um, a lot of people, you know, think the Crusades, okay, these are evil ventures. White supremacists going to colonize some poor nation and, you know, it's completely different and we'll probably get into that. Well, the Crusades are back in the news because Pete Hegseth has got a crusade cross blazed across his right chest. And I've spoken a lot about that and, but he's, he's in the news more recently for another tattoo. He's in the news always for his tattoos, an Arabic tattoo of the word Kafir, which means, uh, I, it's usually translated as infidel, but it means, it's a non, it means non-Muslim, but it has all these negative associations with it. So, it's a pejorative. It's a complete pejorative. I mean, it's synonymous with subhuman, you know, enemy, God hates you, we should kill you. That's what the word means, but it gets translated in English Qurans as unbeliever, very neutral sounding. Um, so anyway, he and it's funny, why are Muslims angry that he has the word Kafir on? He's an infidel, right? They should, that's what Islam makes him, but they're angry because he's proud of it. You're a Kafir, you should be embarrassed and ashamed. But he's flaunting it. He's, he has it as a tattoo. He has it as a badge of honor, literally.

Do we know where when he got that tattoo?

No, I don't, I don't know. And I don't know if anyone does because all, every time we see these tattoos, he doesn't talk about them. They just capture some weird picture of him and you can see a tattoo and then they start talking about the tattoo because they finally saw it. So, I don't know, right?

Maybe he's been reading your books.

Maybe. Maybe. Um, but anyway, that, that recaps it with me. So, and then since then, I'm just, um, writing my books and, um, I'm still a fellow at think tanks. I'm writing articles and I'm trying to develop my YouTube channel. Trying to do what you do and very modestly at this point. Uh, which is fun. Uh, it's fun. It's amazing to me because when I write an article and even it appears in pretty good websites, you know, you can tell how many views there are via comments, maybe 20 comments, 30 comments. But I make a little video on YouTube and there's like 300 comments. So, you know, I guess that's the way to go. More people are interested in watching than reading it. Yeah. Generational thing. And I'm happy to oblige.

Well, look, you've, you've mentioned the Battle of Yarmouk twice and perhaps before we, we go into what's going into Europe, maybe, well, maybe this is the starting point. So, what's happened at the Battle of the Yarmouk then?

The interest to me in the Battle of Yarmouk is it, it's the genesis of the conflict between Christendom and Islam. That's really its significance. Um, and so basically, we got to go back to the beginning to Muhammad, right? Muhammad's dead, 632, and now you have what's called the Ridda Wars, which is, uh, after he died, a lot of Arabian tribes tried to break away from the fold of Islam and the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, launched these apostasy wars, which is very interesting because even till this day, Muslim clerics will tell you, without the law of apostasy, which is, you kill anyone who tries to leave Islam, Islam would have died out. I mean, that, they actually say that, they admit it, that's why we have to have the apostasy law because if people have freedom to leave, it will go, it will be gone. So, those apo, the, the culture of apostasy, punishing apostasy, didn't exist before then under Muhammad?

No, no, it did. He's the one who, yeah, it goes to a Hadith, a statement attributed to him, which is considered canonical in Sahih Bukhari, where he says, literally, um, "Whoever leaves his religion," meaning Islam, "kill him." Mhm. So that was always part of the religion, according to that teaching, that Hadith, and that's why it's still there.

Okay. Okay. So by the second generation of Muslim leaders, they're now codifying that. And, yeah, well, when and how Islamic law gets codified is kind of a controversial thing, depending on which version you want to go to, but much, most, most of it, it happens much later after Muhammad. Uh, maybe like, he dies 632. Really, the first writings and the Hadith are maybe around 750. And this is why there's a school of thought that says Muhammad never existed and it was all fabricated later to give a hagiographical foundational story to the Umayyad Empire. Um, but at any rate, so you have now the Muslim, uh, the Muslim power is consolidated on Darbakar and then later the other Caliph, Omar, um, who are companions and friends of Muhammad, and now the jihad is waged in earnest. Now, here's the first interesting thing that few people understand. In 632, you know, if I talk to someone, your average person, and I talk about the Middle East or North Africa, and they know it's Muslim, they don't know how it got Muslim, they think it's always been Muslim. In, in the dawn of Islam, during this time that I'm discussing, 632 and so forth, the Eastern world, nor Egypt, greater Syria as it was called, which encompassed modern-day Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, it was a big chunk, um, Anatolia or Turkey, what we call Turkey, and like I said, Egypt, all the way down to Morocco, Mauritania, and you, you know, and Augustine's Hippo was there in Tunisia, all that was actually more Christian than Europe. So if you talked about Christianity at the dawn of Islam, you were talking about Egypt, you were talking about Syria, you're talking about Asia Minor, Greece, of course, and Europe. But Europe was actually less Christian. And of course, anything northwest of the Danube River was still not even Germany, you know, the Scandinavian lands hadn't even reached Christianity at that point. Um, and this is why the Roman Emperor Constantine moved the capital of Rome, New Rome, Constantinople, to the east because that's where everything was. That's where the learning was. That's where the sophisticated culture was, the wealth. All right? Uh, and again, when people, we have records of people traveling through Egypt and they say, all we heard from the top of the Nile to the bottom is just hymns and church bells, etc. This is before Islam. Same thing with Syria. Okay. So people miss this context. This is what the Middle East was. If you want to talk about Christianity, there were five major centers. Okay? They call them seas. One was Rome, and the other four were in the Middle East. Okay? One was Alexandria, one was, uh, Antioch, one was Jerusalem, and then later Constantinople. All east and all conquered by Islam. Okay, which we'll get into. So anyway, we have the first major attack. Um, and we have the Battle of Yarmouk in 636, and the, the Muslims prevail.

Where is Yarmouk?

Yeah, Yarmouk is a river in Syria. Um, or it was in greater Syria at the time, so I don't know if it's in part of Jordan now, but I'm pretty sure it's in Syria still. Um, and that's where the two major armies, the Eastern Roman Empire, which they call Byzantine. I sort of don't like that word because it sort of creates a discontinuity between the Roman Empire, that's, they saw themselves as Romans. Even the Arab accounts call them Romans, you know. So, this word Byzantine, I just, anyway, but it's short, it's easy, it's succinct. So, I'll use, I do, I interchange them. But the Eastern Roman Empire, basically, and the Arabs, the Muslims fought there, and it was a major, epic confrontation, and the Christians lost. And for various reasons, among it, you know, there was a death, a desert storm which they weren't used to fighting in, whereas the Arabs were. And it takes on a great, you know, it's very tradition amongst Arabs. It's, this is, you know, where it all begins. And this is where Allah proved he was for us because we beat the infidels, etc., etc. And, you know, I won't get into it, but anyone who's interested, really should read about the battle because a lot of what you know, ISIS, the Islamic State, the stuff they would say, which sort of sounds cryptic and people didn't understand it. They would say things like, um, "We've tasted American blood and none is sweeter." And people just thought they were being gross. Actually, they were quoting characters from the Battle of Yarmouk, Muslim heroes, specifically Khalid ibn al-Walid, known as the Sword of Allah, who said to the Romans, "We've tasted Roman blood and none is sweeter." All right. So when a lot of the things they would say is actually from that battle and other battles as well, but that's how you know, these, these battles and major confrontations with the Christian world where they prevailed still figure prominently in their historical consciousness, whereas to most Westerners, they have no clue. Right. Yeah. Um, so at any rate, the battle happens, the, the West, uh, the, the Christians lose, and now begins the great takeover of the, of the Middle East. All right. Egypt, which was a major center for the Roman Empire, gets conquered four years later, uh, right, or five years, around 640, 641, and, you know, they continue marching all the way west until they get to Morocco around 690. They take over Carthage, you know, where, um, Augustine and Hippo. So all these major centers, and in Syria as well, completely conquered. Jerusalem is conquered one year after Yarmouk. All right. It's like a complete domino effect. And there's theories of why this is. One of them is the, is that the Byzantine Empire was very weakened at the time. But also the Muslims enter and conquer Persia, the Sasanian Empire at the time. Okay? And now it's in, now Iran's been conquered, and they continue eastward. But just to, you know, just to for brevity's sake, I'll continue focusing on the Western Christian world. Um, and so now, so from 632, the year Muhammad died, one century later, 732, Muslims are now in the middle of Europe fighting and abducting people and destroying churches. Not just the middle of Europe, as far north in France. That's why I'm, yeah, that's the date. 732 is the Battle of Tours, which is right in the heart of France. Spain has been conquered since 7-11. Okay. And now they, you know, after they, they took over Morocco, now they sailed into Spain, and that was completely conquered and devastated, and now they're in the middle of France, okay, attacking and, and this is the Battle of Tours. 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These were the main Christian countries, and they just gone, conquered, and Islamized, and nobody knows this. If you talk about those countries now, like Egypt or Syria, most people just have this vague notion they were always Muslim and, you know, Islam just spread there. No. And again, if you look at the sources, both the Arabic and Islamic and the European chronicles, they make it unequivocally clear this was violent bloodshed, conquest, and it's even worse in the Arabic recordings because they boast about it. The more violent it is and the more, you know, the atrocities committed against the Christian infidels and the more churches destroyed, this is more a reflection of how pious the Muslim conquerors were. So, it's actually worse in the Arab. I always find this amazing that it's more graphic sometimes than the European ones, which are a little more objective. They say, yes, we were attacked and thousands were butchered and enslaved and churches, but the, the Muslim ones revel in it. Okay. And so now, let's just stop for a moment. None of this is being taught in any school.

Can I just ask, do you have a sense of the death toll in that first century?

Uh, no. I mean, these, unfortunately, seventh century is what we're talking about. We're lucky to have just the records that we have. But, and I know I put it in Sword and Scimitar where I talk about various regions that get conquered and then some chronicle mentions a number. Okay. But it's, it's very hard. It's very sketchy at that time. I mean, this is, this is we're now nearing to what traditionally was called the Dark Ages because we have, which, by the way, and we can get into, is a product of Islam. Okay. And many people don't know this. Um, and since I'm at it, okay, we're almost there. So basically, after what happened and the discon, so the Mediterranean used to be known as kind of the Roman Lake, and everyone, Egypt and Syria and all of North Africa and Europe were all connected. It was part of one empire. After Islam took everything basically south of that, North Africa and the Middle East, it, and I already told you that was the richer, more profound, the more sophisticated region. Little Europe, the, the rest of Christendom was cut off completely. Papyrus ended. It used to come from Egypt, that was that supply was eliminated. All of that is historically, this is was the beginning of what historians would call the Dark Ages. Okay. And you don't know, I mean, and one historian, uh, Henri Pirenne, he was, I think, a Belgian historian in the 19th century, an orientalist as they called them. He actually had an entire thesis about this. Uh, it was, and basically his line is, without Muhammad, there'd be no Charlemagne. Uh, the rise of Charlemagne and the Frankish state was basically a response to the non-stop Islamic aggression and the separ, and the discontinuity of, uh, the Mediterranean. This is why now Europe had to develop on its own and start a new, and it was, you know, it was the young kid on the block, the barbarians who had, you know, conquered and assimilated into Christendom in the fifth century and whatnot. They didn't, they no longer had the assistance of the East as they did before. Okay. And so now they became the small, final bastion of Christendom, and they continued being attacked by Muslims. Uh, so, you know, to finish this idea of the Dark Ages. So that's, yeah, so people will tell you the Dark Ages, historic, and they don't even want to use that term anymore for various reasons, but they would say it was the 8th century and the 9th century, and it was, they would tell you because of Viking attacks and, you know, attacks from nomadic tribes in the East, but the real attack was the Islam. Okay. That was the main one from the south. And, uh, the Vikings, people don't even understand that a lot of the Viking raids, especially for slaves, okay, white slaves, was to feed the Arab, uh, slave emporium because there was such a demand for white slaves. So they were selling, Vikings were, yeah, would go to Ireland and England and France and wherever and conquered, and all those slaves, most of them would be sold, uh, uh, down through the rivers of Russia to, you know, to the Caliphates, the Abbasids, for example, um, the Abbasid Caliphate, that used to be a well-known thing, and we know this as well because a lot of the treasure troves of Viking coins that are found in Scandinavia are Arab coins, you know, so what commodity do Vikings have to give? Slaves. And we also have records for it. So, you know. The whole point is, uh, Islam has had a profound impact on the shaping of Europe. And there's historians, I quote one in one of my books, um, something Cardini, where he basically says Islam was a midwife to Europe. It created Europe, and the reason Europe became martial and you had the knight culture and everything and a very staunch Christian kind of defensive posture was because of Islam. It was surrounding it and it was, and they knew what happened. They understood that three-quarters of Christendom was destroyed and conquered and Islamized. Um, you know, so it's, this is, we haven't even reached the Crusades, okay? And look what had, look what Islam had done. And I'm here to tell you, and I've, because I've looked at this, and parents write to me about school books, textbooks, and social science books. What I just described you doesn't even get any mention. You just get, get one sentence about how Islam spread through trade in the Middle East. And they won't tell you the Middle East was so Christian before that. They always like to act like Europe was Christian, Christian, and everything else wasn't. No, Europe was the, the, the leftover portion of Christendom that never got conquered. Portions of it did. Spain and the Balkans later under the Ottomans, and we'll get into that. Uh, but yeah, so this is, uh, I'll stop right there.

Why do you think that they were so successful in so quickly conquering so much?

Yeah, there's a lot of theories about that. Um, the, the one which I touched on is, you know, the Roman Empire and the Persians were at war right before the Islamic conquest, literally like a decade or two. Um, they were constantly bleeding each other. So one theory is that they were both so exhausted that when this new power rose up in Arabia, they were able to just conquer them piecemeal. Um, so that's one. The Muslim theory is, God's on our side and this is proof and this is why we won. The ancient Christian, the contemporary Christian theory, they always, this is how people always thought, they thought we were sinners and so, you know, God had raised Amalek against us or, or whatever the Old Testament analogy is, he's raised some kind of pagan people to attack the, the believers, the Hebrews, and punish them and chastise them for their evil ways. So that comes out regularly, um, amongst the Christian.

Do you think that there's anything in the culture of Christianity that, yeah?

Well, that's the Edward Gibbon argument, okay, which is basically that, you know, because of Christianity, it sort of emasculated the martial ethos of the Roman Empire and it made them sitting ducks, you know, for the Arabs. That's also a, um, I don't know how accurate that is because, uh, you still find very martial Christians during this time, you know, like, so, okay. So Charlemagne is now the year 800. We have the rise of Charlemagne.

Wait, before we get to Charlemagne, though, so, uh, they, the, the Muslim armies, are they, they don't conquer Tours and they're fought back, right? And I think all the way back to Spain, if my, you correct me if I get any of this history right.

Yeah, no, no. Right. So, so what, what galvanizes them? The, the, the Europeans to fight back? And why is it that they don't go past into, at that point, presumably it's called Al-Andalus, right? That's what the Arabs call it. Yeah. Um, what, what would the Europeans have called that region?

To them, it would, I mean, it's known sometimes as Iberia, but it's, this is the Spain, S, because it was various Spanish kingdoms before it became one. Hispania, that was, I think, the last term. So there was a, at least by the time they got to Tours, which is a long way into, far into Europe, there was a, a sort of galvanizing of Christians, Christian armies, and there was a military response, right? So in Spain, you had the Visigoths, okay? And, um, Al-Andalus is actually because the Arabs, they somehow confused the Visigoths with the Vandals. Land of the Vandals, okay? So that's, I think, the origin of the etymology of that, why they call it that, yeah, because the Vandals were in North Africa also a little before that time, and they conflate them all together. Vandals, Visigoths. Um, they fought back, the Visigoths, and they lost. I mean, they were, and again, we can, again, these are very sketchy sources. We just have one or two chronicles that are vague, but we know they fought back and there were major battles. Um, but they lost and they got Islamized. And, but, but then, um, a very small, um, you know, a very small group of Christians, according to both Muslim and, it's very, it's a very interesting story, um, led by a man named Pelayo, or Pelagius, and he was the one who is supposedly initiated the Reconquista. So they fled into the rocky, barren regions of the northwestern quadrant of the Spanish peninsula, and they lived in caves, just a small group of Christians. Okay. And the rest of the Christians were became dhimmis, or subjects, you know, subjects of the Islamic state, paying tribute and being essentially second-class citizens. And, um, but from that small hole in the northwest quadrant is where the, um, Reconquista begins, and it just, it comes down slowly southwards.

So that's almost immediately after?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. According to the, uh, yeah, and then you've got sort of 800 years of battles between them until 1492, basically. And still Muslims are there even after 1492, but so basically from 7-11, we're talking like over 700 years, almost eight, uh, of, and it's so, you know, to me, Spain is a microcosm of the sort of Christian Muslim wars because it's all just concentrated in one little nation. And it, you know, all the things that we know that we can talk about about these conflicts manifest themselves in, you know, stark display in Spain, okay? Because you have the Christians versus the Muslims. Muslims are in the south, Christians are in the north. They're in constant warfare. So they're not actually living amongst each other. They push to different regions. Well, so the free Christians of the north, that were a small group, they started pushing south, and they were independent, and they were the enemies of the Muslims. A lot of Christians during the conquest did live in the south with the Muslims as second-class dhimmis, subjects. Okay? And every time, as usual, when the Muslims and the Christians were fighting, the, the Muslims of the south versus the free Christians of the north, the Muslims would take it out on their own Christians as a sort of collective punishment, you know, and, uh, yeah, that comes out a lot. Um, so, and while we're at it, because someone's going to say, well, what about the great Al-Andalus? And this is where, um, you know, this is where Jews and Christians and Muslims prospered and they loved each other. This is one of the themes that is, or apologies that often comes up. And all I have to say to that, well, the, the easy answer, anyone who really wants to delve into this question, they should read, um, the professor, he's a, he's a friend of mine, Dario Fernandez Morera. He wrote a book called The Al-Andalus Myth, a whole book, okay, just tearing into this idea. Um, but just to give you one example, at the height of this golden age, you have what's called the, the Martyrs of Cordoba, which is something like 50, 60 Christians who get boiled, skinned alive, impaled, beheaded because they blasphemed against Muhammad. Okay? So this is like, you know, they finally, they, they found what they want to claim is this great time of tolerance and beauty, and yeah, but they're acting like ISIS on steroids. Okay? But we don't talk about that. So my point is, just to show you that even when they try to find something, it's, if you really look into it, no, it's the same as usual. What they're really boasting about is it was so wealthy. So Al-Andalus was wealthy, and people will talk about, oh, look at the backward Europe, they were, you know, whatever, poor, and look at this grand civilization, and what they don't tell you is most of that wealth was because the Muslims were plundering it from the Europeans, including selling them on the slave market and plundering them, essentially. And that's usually, that has always traditionally been Islam's capital, other people's stuff.

Were they converting Europeans to Islam?

Um, yeah, so when they conquered Spain, for example, I'm sure a lot of Mus, uh, native Spaniards, Christians converted. Okay. And was it, did they bring sort of civilizational, civilization with them from?

So that's the question. Was it a, was it a sort of military nation of, of a kind of band of warrior aristocracy?

Yeah, warrior. Yeah, that's, you, that's definitely how it was originally, initially. And, um, so when you look, sometimes they'll tell you, well, yeah, but, you know, the Middle, the Islamic world was so advanced when Europe was in the Dark Ages. Okay. So what they don't tell you is one, this is still an early time, so that a lot of the people who, you know, were inventing things or doing something, you know, Averroes, the philosopher, or whatever, a lot of these guys were either Christians or Jews, or, or even more often, they were just, they had recently converted. Oh, the, you know, he, I, this important person or whatever, just became a Muslim recently, or he was the son of a man who converted. So a lot of times, you know, whatever credit is being allotted to Islam was really by Jews and Christians of the old civilizations doing what they've always been doing. Okay, but sort of Islam gets the credit. But where, where Islam really takes over and then it, you know, really spreads and everyone becomes Muslim, you see the opposite. Okay. Um, in Spain, to go back to that, it was the, they were the Muslims were obligated, especially when the Christians of the north were still weak, to wage two jihads every year, and it was always devastating, and they came back with the heads of, you know, they would decapitate. Make, they were obligated to wage by who? By Islamic law. The Caliph said, twice a year. And there are Islamic teachings in, in the Sharia of, you have to, when you can, you have to launch raids on the infidel. You can't live in peace with them as long as you can, obviously, if you're weak, you shouldn't. Um, so, and very graphic to the point that until now, there are portions of Spain, especially the middle zone where the frontier, that are completely destroyed and they still can't bring it back to life. It's just a complete war zone from all that. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, um, so that's, that's anyway, it's good we can kind of stop right here real quick because now we're getting to near the Crusade time, and we haven't even gotten there. But just think for a while, like all this is what happened before the first Crusade, right? Yeah. And when we talk about the first Crusade, you're going to find out the problem is people presented in a vacuum. They don't tell you what I just told you. And all of a sudden, it's just these crazy Catholics decided to go and like go abuse the poor. A guy like John Esposito, I don't know if you've heard of him. He's a professor from Georgetown, where I went. And there's a quote which I quote so often that I think I've memorized it from him. And he says, "Five centuries of peaceful coexistence elapsed between Muslims and Christians until an imperial, papal power play led to a series of so-called holy wars which have left an enduring legacy of mistrust and resentment amongst Muslims." In other words, before the first Crusade, which was called in 1095, I haven't even gotten there. I've basically stopped around 800. Right. Yeah. Before that, he's saying Muslims and Christians lived in perfect peace and harmony. Even though I just got done telling you that Muslims conquered three-quarters of the Islamic world, of the Christian world, through sheer violence and bloodshed. Okay? And that's what he, and the thing is, it's not just him. This is the official line amongst historians and academics. And he, I mentioned him because he was at, he was especially back in the day when I was going there, he, every military analyst and politicians would consult him about questions about Islam. And it's the same thing with people like Karen Armstrong, you know, she's a best-selling author about religions. You read what she says, again, she'll all, she'll start off with the Crusades and just how evil it was and act like everything before it was nothing but Muslims being good to Christians. Okay? So, one, so these are what we would call, you know, omissions, um, you know, omission. Yeah. Um, so, so, but at that point, though, do we need to go back to Charlemagne to tie the bow on Charlemagne?

No. No, not really. I mean, you know, he, he's great for his own thing. Charles the Great. I'll give you one quick anecdote again because it shows you the games they play. So, uh, it's known that he and Harun al-Rashid, the Caliph, the Abbasid Caliph, had good relations. Okay. And people use this often as, "Oh, see." And where was that Caliph based? Uh, Baghdad. Okay. Yeah. Um, the Abbasid Caliphate. And then we're talking now, you know, the year 800 or a little after. And people will always show you, yeah, see, it's, you know, Islam and Christians got along. Telling you, I got two, you got two emperors, or a Caliph and an emperor, and they were friends, etc., etc., and they gave gifts to each other. But when you dig in and you read the chronicles, and I quoted, I'm pretty sure in Sword and Scimitar, I, I discuss, um, his, the chronicler of Charlemagne, he makes it perfectly clear that the reason Charlemagne was being nice and reaching out to Harun al-Rashid was to, was in almost like he was bribing him to be good to the Christians under his authority in Egypt, in Iraq, in, in the Islamic world, because there were so many Christians. So he says that the chronicler, he says the reason he sought out friendships was so he can make the plight of Christians living in those regions less, and he can help them. Okay. So you see how again, that is omitted, but we're told about, oh, look, they got along because Muslims and Christians always get along. So that's, I can leave it at that with Charlemagne.

So, uh, then let's go to the Crusades.

Yeah. This is quite a, a whistle-stop tour, but yeah. Um, so it's 1095. So 1095, but we have to start a little earlier to give context. So, you know, everything I discussed was during the Arab, the rise of the Arab Empire, and it went through iterations. You had the Umayyads, and then you had the Abbasids, which I just mentioned. Um, and then sometime after that, you know, the, the, the Abbasids start importing Turkish slaves and Islamizing them, slave soldiers, okay, like the Janissaries and the Mamluks. Um, and, but, you know, long story short, before long, you know, the Turks become very Muslim, and they become Sunni Muslims. Um, which is important because we're going to talk a little bit about Shia. And, um, eventually they take over, and they still keep the Caliphate, the Abbasid, but he's more of a puppet figure. And the real power is the Seljuk Sultan. All right. Now, during this time, especially from like 1050 to 1090, okay? Right before the first Crusade, these Seljuks are running amok. Okay? So the persecution and the destruction of Christians that I had mentioned earlier under the Arab times, times 10. I mean, now it's just, it's horrific. Okay? They start in Armenia, greater Armenia, which is, you know, far what we would say, eastern Anatolia. And according to the records, you know, I'm thinking of Matthew of Edessa, who was a contemporary. They were just killing tens of thousands of Christians, Armenians, Greeks, okay, and burning every church in Ani, which was the capital at the time of Armenia. It was known as the city of a thousand and one churches. They ritually burned down every church, destroyed every crucifix. I tell you that to also underscore because a lot of people will tell you, okay, the Turks, you know, it's people were warring. It's different tribes, and they try to, um, you know, minimize the religious element. So that's why I'm telling you that in their own sources, it, it's very clear that they did what ISIS would do. They symbolically were trying to denigrate Christianity. They would destroy churches. They would take the greatest cross of the greatest church and send it as a war trophy to Baghdad to the Caliph. Okay? So my point is, it wasn't just warfare. It was, it had that jihadist ideological component. Okay, which again, historians like to just ignore as some sort of, you know, whatever, but it's in the sources. And, um, they were also in the Holy Land. You know, you had pilgrims that were always going to the Holy Land, even though it was a hard venture, and they would get persecuted even before that under the Arabs in the seventh, eighth, ninth centuries. Now the Turks really took it to a new level, and, you know, they would attack the pilgrims. They would extort even more money than they had to pay. There's one incident that happened in 1065 which really was a scandal. They attacked a large German pilgrimage and they gang-raped a nun and, you know, made everyone watch it, like, like really horrific stuff. They would go in churches and disembowel people and just smear the blood on the altar, again, as a form of mockery. Okay. So this is, this is what's building up towards the first Crusade. And then, um, it really gets bad after the Battle of Manzikert, which is one of my main battles also in, in my book Sword and Scimitar. And the Christians again lose.

Where is that battle?

It's in Manzikert, which is actually close to Armenia in Asia Minor. Um, the Roman Emperor at the time went, trying again, like Yarmouk, they went with a large army trying to stop these, the Seljuk Turks, and they lost. And after that, they just completely ran amok all westward, and now they're attacking all Asia Minor, of course, I mean, Turkey, what we call now, it's Turkey because it got conquered during this time. Um, and Asia Minor, by the way, you know, so Turkey, when you hear Turkey, you think, okay, it's a Muslim nation. This is, this was such a Christian nation that, you know, St. Paul's letters, most of them go there, Asia Minor, Turkey. Yeah, a lot of them. And, uh, so now it's all conquered, and now they're right next to Constantinople, and they're on the verge of actually reaching and getting into the European mainland. And the Emperor, the Roman Emperor at the time, Alexios, he calls for aid from the Franks and the, you know, the Europe. And he had friends there and, you know, some nobles, and they all got together. And then, long story short, Pope Urban II, at the Council of Clermont in 1095, in November, he basically stood up and he told everything that was happening. He mentioned everything I'm telling you. All the desecrations of churches, all the rape of women and the sl, and the forced Islamization of children and the disemboweling of Christians. Very graphic stuff. Okay. And which is in a lot of sources. So it's not, you know, one guy made it up. Um, and that's it. And they all cried out, Deus Vult, which Mr. Hegseth has a, a tattoo, which means God

wills it, right? And that was it. They they they they went.

So if you ask earlier historians, you know, in the 1800s, they would tell you the crusades were motivated by love. You know, they were actually in a lot of the it comes out in some of the sources where the crusaders were moved by Christ's injunction to love your fellow man as much as yourself and to love God. So they were loving God because they wanted to go and liberate the holy sele. They wanted to liberate the holy land which was very important. Yeah. Again, this is something modern people don't understand, but um place was important. You know, holy sacred land was something that was, you know, very important. So, they wanted to go and liberate it from Muslim control. And they wanted to also protect fellow Christians. And now, you know, your average person, you hear the word crusade, it's such a diabolical evil thing, evil venture. But that marks an interesting turning point even from the Christian point of view from this let's say turn the other cheek mentality to we're going to protect our fellow Christians by killing others. Yeah.

So the the whole issue you know this goes back to the concept of just war which really one of the name that always gets thrown out there and it's it's the chief articulator they would say and proponent is Augustine St. Augustine who lived in the fourth century. Okay. Um or it was it fifth century. So he's way before all this and to him and to almost every other doctor of the church and theologian it was okay to fight back and you know they would cite things like um you know Roman centurion comes to Jesus and uh Jesus heals his servant and then Jesus you know what does Jesus do when he does a miracle for someone he tells him to repent right change your way he didn't tell this guy hey put your sword away stop killing I mean this guy was a centurion he saw he oversaw the bloodshed, a lot of bloodshed. Jesus didn't say anything to him. Okay. So, also John the Baptist, you know, when people came to him and a bunch of soldiers came to him and saying, "What must we do?" He didn't tell them, "Leave the army." He said, "Don't be content with your pay." Okay? So, a lot of these were understood by early church theologians as justifying just war theory. As long as the war is not about, you know, conquest and enforcing whatever my will on you, if I'm defending my land, that was 100% Christian. Okay? And so, and this is why, okay, so if you don't understand everything I've been saying, if you didn't hear this, then how is crusades just war? Because what you see is a bunch of Europeans going to Muslim territory. What's just in that? But if you know the truth, which is, well, that was Christian territory and they were killing Christians still and destroying Christian lands and holy sacred places, then it did become part of the just war theory. You see what I'm saying? But it's 300 years since that it had been Muslim. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, to their thinking, that point of view and it was still full of Christians and you know I mean I don't think they they went by what's it like statues of limitations right they didn't think that way you know so okay so in their mind I still rationalized it but but specifically it was because they were killing Christians and attacking Christians places okay so that was it even if it wasn't Christian beforehand I think they would have just war theory would cover the logic why are you killing innocent Christians so this is what the first of several crusades Yeah.

Can you take me I actually am not too good on crusade history. Can you take me through to through them? Sure. Um so the first crusade is 10. The first crusade is the most successful one. It's arguably the only successful one because they got what they want. They went through they and the sufferings they went through are amazing. But they liberated various Christian regions and cities Antioch Adessa and most importantly Jerusalem because that's what they really wanted. the holy sele or the church of the resurrection was this massive complex that was built um at top what is believed to have been Jesus's um burial where not just his burial it was actually a humongous structure built during Constantine's time in the 300s that this so in this church you actually had where Jesus uh um was betrayed the garden of Gethsemane and then you also had where he was crucified and you have where he was buried okay and it was it was and resurrected uh and quick anecdote which I almost forgot but is pivotal to what we're talking about in the year 1009. Okay, so we got to go back in time a little bit and just again what I'm going to tell you is going to again underscore just how Christian that region was and underscore the sorts of persecution that went. But there was a fatimid khalif in Egypt and the fatimid was okay and his name is and this guy okay they call him the mad khalif because they want to they want to pretend that what he did what I'm going to tell you was the product of a maniac right there's no rationale under him he had 30,000 churches in Egypt and in greater Syria destroyed okay so first of all 30,000 that's a humongous number of churches in an area that I thought was Muslim okay uh Um, and the source for this, which a lot of Western people try to ignore, is an Arabic Muslim source, Al-Makrizi. All right? And he says 30,000. And people say, "No, no, that's a mistake. You put one more, one, two, one, too many zeros." You know, he meant 300. And historians will write, "Oh, 300 churches." But he wrote 30,000, including the holy sele, the one that I'm discussing. He had it destroyed and pulverized. And then it was later rebuilt, a smaller version. But the one that was that I was telling you about by Constantine, he had it raised to the ground. this most important place um for Christianity. As far as my geography of Jerusalem goes, that must have been huge because where I know the the the rock where the crucifix was the distance to that where it is believed to you're talking about the rock with the round stone that there's two places that people believe where Christ was um uh buried. The the one you're talking about I think is the later one. Mostly Protestants actually except Catholics and and Orthodox believe it was somewhere which was actually closer. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

We're the crusades. The first one is the most successful, right? And then the how did the first crusades end? Yeah. Let me just finish the Fatima thing because this is very important.

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Let me just finish the Fatima thing because this is very important because it ties up to what we're talking about. So, 30,000 churches destroyed. And again, I want to remind you, you have these people who are telling us five centuries of peaceful coexistence. We're between Muslims and Christians. What I just told you is 109. This is the time frame they're talking about. 30,000 churches were completely destroyed. Okay? And these people are writing books and saying everything was fine until the first crusade. You see how they present things in a vacuum? Yeah. They don't want you to they want you to think that the Christians were the aggressors. They had no reason to do what they did. Okay. All right.

So then, okay, the crusades you have various what gives rise to them is essentially then the Muslims start winning back and conquering. So around 11:44 you have the second crusade because some Muslim sultan destroys Adessa on Christmas day which was a Christian principality and uh it was full of Armenians and Greeks and again to get give you idea in the sources when the Franks and the crusaders came and liberated these regions which had a lot of indigenous Christians Armenians and Greeks and Syriaks the sources talk about how they threw themselves and kissed their hands and feet and why would they do that? I thought I thought they lived in harmony with their Muslim overlords. Why would they want these strange men from Europe? Because they were all Christians, okay? And they were being persecuted. Um, so in 10 uh 1144 the Adessa is completely ransacked and destroyed and just again like very sadistic stuff is happening to the women and children and it gave rise to a new crusade. Okay. And that one was abysmal failure. They got nothing. They just died. everyone who came it was under King Louie and Conrad I believe the German emperor completely destroyed and then you know things kind of status quo and you still have Jerusalem and you still have Antioch and other places and then you get the rise of Saladin okay and he's very as we all know very popular and uh uh you know he he actually um conquers Jerusalem all right he the the a major battle the battle of Hatin the two horns which is again my in my book sortar has a whole chapter In 1187 he wins and he beats a massive crusader army of the kingdom of Jerusalem and after that they all fall like dominoes. He conquers Jerusalem. He conquers a lot of Christian territories and there's only a few left and that's what calls the third crusade. King Richard is of course the one who spearshead it but also King Philip as as well from France. Um and Barbar Roa the German emperor who unfortunately brought the biggest army but then died on his way. He fell in the river. He was very old. Um, but you know, and very in King and Richard is very impressive. I have a whole chapter dedicated to him and the third crusade in Defenders of the West because he's when you read about this guy and the actual sources, it's amazing. Apparently, he was a giant. Okay. Something like 66 or you know because Oh, really? Yeah. And at that time and and the sources just describe him always leading his men, being the center of the charge, the first one in, decapitating, slaughtering everyone. And the Muslims themselves actually in their sources talk about him like that. So he was quite the formidable character. Uh very interesting. Anyway, the third crusade was kind of uh not a total victory but not a total loss. Like him and Saladin made a treaty so Christians can go back to Jerusalem but it was still under Islamic control and and and you know whatever. And um then you have the fourth crusade which is bas which people love to point fingers at because it's where the crusaders go and sack Constantinople right Christians attacking Christians and that has its own story and different versions of why that happened. Um but before we get into that I'm just remembering again very important point about Saladin before we leave Saladin. Um now this guy have you you've heard how magnanimous Saladin was right and for because I follow this and I read a lot of books. Okay, about this he's always held up as this great magnanimous and very tolerant uh you know sultan until today people say Christians can learn from him and his magnanimity etc etc and he's to me and I made a video about him you know he's the epitome of fake history because why do people say that so okay if you look in the sources especially the m so they here's what they'll tell you when Saladin conquered Jerusalem which he did uh in 1187 he allowed the Christians to leave peacefully and he was very magnanimous and they always contrast it with the first crusade uh in 1099 when the Christians conquered Jerusalem apparently there was a blood bath okay they killed everyone in sight okay so they use this now what they don't tell you okay is one according to the Muslim sources he was like a fanatic jihadist who did nothing but like but persecute anyone who went against Islamic law in Egypt he had the Christians the cops persecuted he had their churches hard for what did they do, right? Um they're not crusaders. And then uh he had after the battle of Hatton a group the group the knights of the temple in the hospital he gave them a choice of convert to Islam or be beheaded. They all said no and he had something like 300 of them decapitated. In fact going back to how ISIS you know likes to live off history. When you see ISIS, the Islamic State, and those videos they made of copa Christians or whoever, and they have them in the orange jumpsuit and they push them over and carve their heads off, that is directly lifted from what Saladin had done to these Christians at the battle of Han. Exactly. That's how it's described and they're emulating it. Okay. And uh you know, ALS he did all sorts of other nasty stuff. His his dying wish was to not just get rid of the crusaders in the Holy Land, but to invade Europe until no one lived who didn't believe in Allah. I mean, this doesn't sound like a magnanimous tolerant guy to me. You know what I mean? Okay. Um, and then in even what he did in in um in Jerusalem, this supposedly magnanimous gesture, he no blood bath, if you look at the sources, what really happened is they told him he was besieging and he said, "Okay, they and they tried to surrender and he said, "No, I'm going to kill every last one of you." But then they said, "Okay, we're going to destroy Ala Mosque because they had possession of we're going to destroy all the holy sites of is of Islam and we're going to kill all our hostages." So he finally agreed to let them go if they can pay a ransom. Okay? And the ones who couldn't, which was something like 8,000 or or 16,000, I have the number written down. And mostly women and children because they were poor were in consigned to slavery. Okay? So it's like but he's being used today as this paragon of virtue and magnanimity. Okay. And people believe that. And where does it come from? It actually comes from Sir Walter Scott's novels. Okay. Yeah. He created this chivalous kind of Saladin and all of a sudden that's what people believe as if it's real history. Okay. So anyway, I just wanted to emphasize that because uh you know Saladin is a very popular figure when we talk about the crusades and so much of what is said about him is just you know overdone just so you can so they can put up a Muslim on a pedestal and try to shame Christians with but when you look at the reality it's just not there.

And where did the Jews fit in all of this? Were they they I understood that many of them were killed. Yeah. Yeah. So the Jews, you know, even before, I mean, and here's again one of those things where people try to demonize the crusades because they attacked and killed Jews and they did. Um, but you know, the Jews were being attacked and killed by Christians even before that. But what happened is um you know a lot of it was mostly the peasant crusaders not the actual knights and uh you know the formal armies but a lot of them would go and you know they'd get riled up and say why are we traveling all this distance during their long trek to kill infidels who hate Jesus when we have them right here the Jews who killed him. And they would rile themselves up and they'd go attack and kill them. There were some terrible pilgrims weren't there. Yeah. Yeah. But you know it's also important to know that the church and the leaders were against it and against the programs. Yeah. And they and they would issue edicts saying you have to leave the Jews alone and they would come in their defense. So it was almost it was almost like what always happens. You have the rabbel, you know, but the actual church policy was not to persecute them and the crusader policy was not to persecute them or or do any of that. But of course you're going to have the bad apples who act on whatever impulse they want to just plunder them on whatever pretext.

So at this point though, we still have the Muslims in Spain, right? The Crusades have the the rest of Europe then is Christian, right? And uh the the area that is now Israel, Lebanon, that's kind of going back and forth. No, that's under Muslim control. The Holy Land. Yeah. At this point now, it's under Muslim control. The So the Crusaders finally get expelled in 1292. Okay, that's the end of it. Uh after the fall of Aker or Akre, however you want to pronounce it. That was the final stronghold after Saladan and then the Mluks came and and and they started conquering more and then by 1292 you have no more crusader presence in the Holy Land. Okay. So, uh we'll come back to what happens next because there's some important events particularly there's two sieges on Vienna by the Ottomans and I I'm keen to ask you about Constantinople as well or as we know it now Istanbul. Um, but you've mentioned a few times as you discussing this that historians like to ignore this. Historians like to ignore that or they paint this one-sided picture and the way you actually describe it is that the one-sided picture they paint is the opposite of what is true. I'm curious by what you think the motivation is by those historians?

I think there's several. I think today it's just it's kind of, you know, it's snowballed and it's just that's the narrative. So if you're just a moderately ed if you go to college today and you're a history major and you're studying this field you're not going to read primary sources which you should that used to be the original thing you're supposed to but go read this you know three four books by these secondary secondary his uh source would be you know like me okay a modern person who supposedly consults the primary sources and then you know puts it into a book form and you read it so most people will read that and those books now you know they and they've been going and and the question is but have painted a completely different picture. You know, a guy like Sir Steven Runsman, for example, who's the he wrote like four or five volumes of the Crusades and it was considered, you know, the best seller, etc., etc. I think came out maybe in the 50s or 60s. And now historians will tell you, yeah, this guy really had an axe to grind, you know, and he was just dedicated to making the Christians look bad and making the Muslims look good, right? And how do we know this? because the ones who have taken the time to consult the primary sources are realizing what he's saying is not there and often times the opposite is there. So why okay the reason why um I would argue today it's because of what we would call political correctness. It's this desire honestly, okay, really to bring it down where you know the narrative has to always be this Christians, whites are bad, non-Christians, brown people are good. Okay, this is it. That's the mantra and everything has to conform to this. Why? Okay, we can get into that. But that has been the case for I would say a long time since the 60s. Okay, um and this sort of self-hatred thing has arose. But, you know, there's also other reasons, you know, academic reasons. For example, you want to be a historian, okay? The the thing that would make you popular is you come up with a new interpretation. So for the longest time, the interpretation was what I'm telling you. But if I can come up with something clever like, oh wait, actually Anducio is a great beacon of light and learning. Okay, wow. Then I've made a new contribution. Especially if it's what people want to hear. People want to hear that narrative for the reasons I just explained. They don't want to hear about, okay, Christians and Muslims fighting because Muslims are aggressors, etc. M so all of these um but you know again today in the current climate it's just you know what I'm saying right now I don't care how my books sword and scimitar has like over a thousand citations endnotes to show you where I got my stuff cuz I already knew I'm going to be attacked where'd you get that where'd you get that so the facts are there but you know people just they still till this very day want to believe that narrative okay which and you see it everywhere manifestations of what I just said this narrative even if you're watching the news and there's some kind of incident or criminal activity in between a black man and a white man or something. It has to be spun a certain way. So of course it's been going on with history because you know history people talk about fake news and it's very important obviously but to me fake history is more important because fake news is ephemeral and it you know creates its mischief but then it you know vanishes and we move on something else. Fake history you create overarching narratives and and um you know basically paradigms where you sift reality through. So if I've created a fake history where you know Muslim Christian relations are such that Christians were the evil aggressors and Muslims were the poor guys. Well of course now when you talk about anything in the modern era and you see it through that lens it all makes perfect sense and gives you more reason to despise the Christians and the westerners etc. And that's what's been going on for a long time. Which is why I think when I discuss these things you know the number one response I get from people is like I'm embarrassed I didn't know this. you know, why didn't I learn this in school and well, I'm this is why you don't you didn't because there's a narrative. Fake news has a political agenda than fake history. It's the agenda. It's more profound, but it's still somewhat political, right? Yeah, of course it is political and it manifests itself ultimately in a political way, but it's very subtle and it's harder to prove. And you know, so fake news, we can argue, oh, here's evidence that this guy didn't say whatever, but fake history, you know, who's going to take the time to delve into the primary sources? like let's say I did and I did it cuz I love it and I was at the Library of Congress and I had access to all those books and I know a couple of languages you know so it's not that easy to do that and you're just going to go by if I go to the bookstores Barnes & Nobles for example um and I go to the Middle East or history section all the books and I'm familiar with them they're all the politically correct books that say the exact opposite of what I'm telling you. Yeah. So, if you mean well and you want to read a book and you educate yourself and you go to Barnes & Noble, you're just going to you're going to you're going to you're going to learn the exact opposite. And that's why I always find it funny that you're better off being ignorant because if you're ignorant, if you're an un unlearned learned person, maybe just dropped high school and you didn't go to college, you're probably going to have a better understanding of what we're talking about from an instinctual level at least. Yeah. But if you go the further you go into higher education and formally study these things, what happens is the le you learn the exact opposite, but then you're proud of it and you're so visalous about you know because I got a degree. I know what I know this, you don't know what you're talking about. But what happened is you've been indoctrinated in lies. Yeah. Yeah.

So look, you've mentioned a couple of books that have changed the popular understanding of let's say the Crusades and these various other moments, but would you could you pinpoint to a specific moment in time when the narrative changed from, as you described earlier, there was a common understanding in Europe about Islam aggression in Europe to now where most people have no idea. Is there a moment in time where that the transitional phase? Yeah, which is a good good question. So, okay, honestly, it all really starts with and and a lot of people don't like to hear this, but the with the Protestant Reformation, okay, because with the break with the Catholic Church was a need to, you know, I don't want to use the word demonized, but whatever, you know, justify the break. And so, anything the Catholic Church did became jaundest and kind of bad, including the crusades. And, you know, the Protestants made good points, you know, indulgences, etc., etc. I get that. That makes sense. But you you got this move now where like whatever we can you know however we can make Catholics look bad we should and that was the beginning. So Martin Luther he condemned the crusades and then he condemned when the Turks were actually invading Vienna or coming towards Austria he actually said don't fight back and and he said this is God's way of punishing the Catholics and church until they got close to where he was and he actually changed his tomb literally and wrote a new saying no you can fight back it is just war this is I'm not lying to you this is true I can give you the evidence is that for motivated reasoning yeah so so it really starts with a product and look I'm not people I'm not I don't want to get into the I'm not a theologian. I'm not arguing who's right theologically. I'm just saying as a historical development the rift between in Christendom between Protestants and Catholics created a sort of hatred towards the Crusades. Okay? Because it was another thing to point at and say oh look and then and they also this is was also the the beginning of the rehabilitation of of Muslims in the eyes of Europeans because if Muslims are the enemies of the bad guys the Catholics they must be good. Okay. And this is why till today it's actually Protestant nations that are suffering from Islam because they're the ones who have completely opened their doors and who who follow this logic which is m Muslims are great. It's the Catholics you got to worry about. Okay. Or or at least elements of it still subconsciously maybe exist. Um and that's why you have Muslims running a muck in Scandinavia and Sweden in the UK and in Germany. Um then but then you look at countries like uh you know Hungary and Poland which is you know Hungary I know is Catholic and co and and so is Poland and you don't see that sort of thing as much of course and I think that's a u so anyway that's the beginning of it I would say the Protestant Reformation and again this isn't me I'm not talking about theology I'm talking about historical development which is normal of course um and then you get the enlightenment right and with the enlightenment all of a sudden now now there's a kind of it's not that the Muslims are good but yeah these Christians are fanatics. This is now Edward Gibbon, for example, is and Voltater and these guys is so now once again the the crusaders and their calls looks ridiculous and they're stupid and what what are they fighting over this is dumb etc. Okay. And then you move on until you come to sort of the modern you know 19th century 1800s. Now you have serious scholars orientalists and um you know they just approach it in a very cold fashion that are I I actually like their writings. are objective, okay? And they're looking at the sources and um they're actually better than the other guys, but you still have the influence of the sort of, you know, the Protestant disdain for crusades and you have the, you know, the enlightenment disdain as well. Um and then you come into the modern era where again I think it's this need you know we come from you know I want to I think sometime in the 60s you get this move this very anti-Christian thing where you know Christians and Europeans and westerners are the root of all problems okay and of course this is how the crusades been so now it's being taught that way and you know we're gravitating back so now it's worse than ever because what they're doing is they're lit literally playing with history I already gave you an example of all the horrors that happened before the first crusade. In one year, 30,000 churches were destroyed. This is say nothing of the killings of Christians under Hakim Amra the Fatimid Khalif or all the other ones. And they ignore all that intentionally and just tell you crusades just happened out of the blue. Five centuries of peace down the toilet and now and now Muslims. Can you imagine that when 9/11 and all that happened and and till now when there's an Islamic terror attack in Europe, they try to actually associate it to the Crusades and say, "Well, Muslims are still upset about that. They have grievances." Okay? And they don't. I mean, because Muslims are not idiots. They actually respect the Crusades in the sense that, oh, there was a time when Christians fought back. Oh, okay. Good for them, right? But but I mean everything is being done you know to just rewire everything so it fits that narrative.

So let's go back to the the history of it at both sides of Europe at the sort of midsecond millennia. We have the Inquisition happening in in Spain and we have the Ottomans charging well not only Constantinople but right up as far as uh Vienna. Maybe we start with the Inquisition. Sure. So, and here I'm going to talk about the Inquisition, but we're going to you're going to start finding something interesting here is like any all these major historical epics and and um you know developments that we talk about, you're going to find Islam snuck in somehow including in the inquisition. Okay, so the Inquisition to us is you know, oh just crazy fanatical Christians torturing everyone to get the facts, etc. And then there's elements of that as well. Okay, but it really started why did it start in Spain? because it was part of the war with Islam. And after the the reconista now is finally coming to an end and all the Muslims have been beaten far south that they're all now in Granada, southern tip of Spain. All right. And this is under Ferdinand and Isabella, right? Um the unification of Spain as well. So now they're all holed up, but they're about half a million Muslims. Okay? And initially the Christians allowed them to keep their religion and keep their Sharia and live. But whenever they could, the Muslims would basically try to subvert and attack, including with Barbary pirates and with the Ottomans. They were like a fifth column and they would attack Christians whenever they could and kill them, etc. So it came down to you either become a Christian or you leave. Go back to North Africa where your ancestors came from. And so now the why become a Christian right now. Today it's seen as oh look at these intolerant crazy Catholics. They just force the religion on everyone. No, the logic was if they become Christians, this jihadist animist they have for us will have to go away because now they're like us. Okay, that that was the only logic. Okay, become like us and lose your hatred for us or leave. So, a fatwa came out. A feta was a a decree by a very well by several respected Islamic jurists from North Africa who employ who invoked the doctrine of tea. Okay. And tea is based taka means you can dissemble your true beliefs about Islam. You can say you're a Christian, but as long as you're truly a Muslim in your heart and you're doing this as a strategim, you can do it as but continue to hate the infidel and whatever. Continue trying to plot against them. So fat came out and all half million Muslims overnight became Christians and they converted and were baptized and and long story short, they the sources described them as being better Christians than the Christians. They were punctual to church and everything, but they were home reading the Quran to their children and preaching undying hatred for Christian Spain and still trying to plot. Okay? And that was the beginning of the Inquisition, okay? Because they the Christians didn't know what to do. They didn't want to get rid of them because they converted and what if he is a sincere Christian and what if he's not? But they were but they were aware that they were being deceitful. Yeah. Finally, when they finally learned that they were being deceived, there's one guy who I quote, I think he's a priest from 15th century and he says these these people were better Christians than us and yet in their hearts they still believed and were following the impostor, you know, prophet. Okay? And uh so they were still a fifth column but an even more dangerous one. And the Muslim sources say and a lot of the people very early cryptic references a lot of the men who were women I I suppose who were engaged in tea were burned because of the inquisition. So that is really the and and there's elements of this with Jews as well. Well, I think they're called, you know, one one's the Maiskos were the Moors who supposedly converted but were still kind of practicing their Islam and the Moranos, I believe, were the Jews who for the and when people talk about the Inquisition, my point is they always mention the Jews, but it was actually a lot more Muslims who were being tried for that very reason. And uh, you know, Catholic Spain just ended up basically saying, "You're either one of us or you have to go be-c because you're plotting against us, obviously. And the only way we can determine it is through an inquisition. I'm not trying to justify the Inquisition. I'm just trying to show you once again how Islam is in the background. How it provoked a pretty bad reaction.

You have called some of the behavior of Islam and the Muslims as they as they grew out from the Arabian Peninsula up into Europe as brutal and barbaric. Would you describe the Inquisition in such ways? Sure. I mean the Inquisition there I'm sure there are innocent people who suffered and the Inquisition uh was involved with the Knights of the Temple for example and that's a topic I've actually delved in very recently for my recent book where these guys who had vowed and done everything to fight for Christendom were actually tortured by fellow Christians on on you know baseless charges that were made by the king who wanted their you know gold. So I'm sure a lot of people were I'm not justifying the Inquisition. And I'm just I'm more interested in trying to show you how once again Islam gave rise to something that was very negative in Europe. You know the rec or even you know the okay the Christopher Columbus he sailed the you know the ocean blue because he's looking for spices. People again don't understand the whole thing was about Islam. Okay. Yeah I know that's because that's but he couldn't go east anymore. You couldn't go east because if you go east you get killed. Okay. By the Muslims, the Ottomans and the Mlukes and so forth. And not only that, in his own writings, he was doing this partially to help with the crusade. He wanted to find people who he thought would be Christians or converted to Christianity and then they can be mobilized to go like an apinser movement around and attack the Islamic world and liberate Jerusalem. So it was still that or even the Portuguese before him, you know, um the Portuguese explorers who are usually Prince Henry I think is uh or Henrik II is the main one who's attributed with this sort of traveling around the world. He was a complete crusader. That was his motivation entirely. Really? Entirely. Oh, that was it. Wow. Um, so you see how Islam is just embedded in in Europe's history and so so many, you know, it's been completely taken out. Yeah. Events were a reaction to it. Wow. Um, so what about then the rise of the Ottomans? What year is uh Constant? Remind me what year Constantinople is is 1453 May 29 when it's conquered. Yeah. Yeah. And so what what happened that was that a a very bloody uh brutal like the rest of it or what what's the story of the of the sacking of Constantin?

Okay. So okay so I mentioned the Seljic Turks who were you know Turks and they were the ones who were mainly during the first crusade and a little bit afterwards. Um and then the Ottomans were more Turks. Uh and the names Ottoman and Seljuk these are the names of the founders. So Ottomans with their founder, the their forefather Osman is his name and the other guy was Seljuk, but they're all Turks. Um, and they they rose in that area very close to Constantinople and they eventually took over and consolidated all the Turkish tribes under them and the Seljixs were gone and they became the chief power at the time. There were really two powers, the Ottomans in Turkey and in Egypt you had the Mluks who were slave soldiers and Egypt kept importing them and then eventually they took over. Um anyways and they were contending rivals the Ottomans and the Mluks until the Ottomans actually beat the Mlukes and around 1517 and um absorbed all of that whole area. So the the Mlu the Ottomans were definitely the scourge of more in more modern times. Okay. So from around 1400 uh up until you know 1683 they're at Vienna, right? They're surrounding Vienna. For those hundreds of years, the Ottomans completely devastated the Balkans, conquered so many regions, you know, Greece, uh, Bulgaria, Albania, all these regions. Hungary was one of its main enemies, but it also got conquered for about 150 years. And, um, you know, it, like I said, it goes all the way up until 1683, and now they're around Vienna again, encircling it with 200,000. Um, and I'll tell you a very interesting story about Vienna because it's very applicable to today. Something's happening today about this, but in the battle of Vienna in 1683, yeah, you have something like 200,000 Muslim Ottomans surrounding it. And on their way, they destroyed and devastated everything, killing 30,000 Christian captives, etc. And um they they were about to to enter breach um Vienna. It was about two months into it or even less until and right before they did on September 12th, the king of Poland came, John Soieski III with something like 65,000 fighters and they were on the top of a hill and he very clearly says this is about Christianity and Islam and they're trying to take it and so forth. I have a whole chapter about that too. Sort of scimitar all these big ones. Um and then they had you know a thunderous cavalry charge and they defeated and and the Ottomans and lifted the siege. And of course Vienna was grateful very much. So since then they've been trying to put up a monument or a statue for Soies on that hill in Vienna where he came down and a lot of vianese and Austrians wanted it and of course polls wanted it and it's a way of thanking the polls for what they did but the the city council of Vienna said that's too Islamophobic and it might offend the Muslims. When was that? This is happening right now. This is something actually that was just reported like a few weeks ago. Okay. And we're not going to have it because it it agitates Islamophobia. And uh and then you look into in Vienna and it's like a bastion of Islam. I didn't know this but or until recently there are more Muslim students than Catholic students. And Vienna of course was a Catholic nation. It was it was a seat of the Holy Roman Empire. Um which was why it was so important to Muslims to conquer like Rome. Today there are more Muslim students in Vienna than in Vienna. And constantly there's there the mosques are being busted for teaching hate. Last year there was a a foiled plot on a Taylor Swift concert. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean there's a lot I I wrote an article and there's so many things and you know these students tried to shoot up a Christian class and they said because killing Christians get us into heaven. That's what the Muslims said, the students. Um but and um so so we're at so so basically what's going on is Vienna is willing to spit in the eyes of the ancestors of the people who liberated them to and to humor the the descendants of the people who were attacking them and who are themselves currently criminalizing Vienna because there's all these reports of how crime and rape has exponentially skyrocketed since this influx of Muslim migrants. Okay. Yeah. Um and it's just amazing. And and and a final, you know, about these battles because this is related. Um in France also about a couple months ago, a couple of Muslims tried to bomb something in Poier by tours. Um why? Because they wanted to avenge the defeat at the You're kidding me. No, they were smarting about that. Still this battle most Westerners don't even remember. Again, showing you the long view of Muslims. They won 1500 years later. Yeah. Wow.

There's the Seeing as we're recording in America, I just read the biography of Captain John Smith who set up the to fight Turks. Well, he he set up the the the the first successful colony at Jamestown and he would before that he's a man from Lincolnshire and he went to fight the Turks in Hungary and was captured, became a slave, was tra taken all the way across to east eastern uh Turkey. uh eventually escaped, walked up to Moscow, then walked all the way across Europe again to uh his friends in Hungary and eventually um actually he didn't even go home then at that point. He went off and went on some other adventures. Um but uh it it's for me it it goes to show that actually even the founding of America you mentioned the Barbrey Wars earlier that there's this stuff would have would very much have been in the imagination of the founders of of this country as um as as we've seem to have forgotten all of that stuff. But but isn't it ironic John Smith I mean he's mostly famous for what? Pocahontas. Yeah. Right. But here even this guy has this long sorted affair with Islam. Right. Yeah. And since you mentioned it and since I've been talking about history and I went up to 1683, let me actually finish it off with Barbrey because that's very important. Um, people don't realize that. I mean, think about this. America's first war as a nation after gaining independence from your country. Uh, was was against Muslims and Jefferson. Yeah, Jefferson. And why? Because they were using the very same logic that all the other Muslims that I quoted, you know, the jihad, etc. You're an infidel. And uh so they start attacking and plundering American vessels sometime in I think 1780 or something right soon after the revolutionary war. And um long story short Jeff Jefferson and John Adams they meet with the ambassador from Barbrey I think Tripoli Abdul something you know it's I have it in my book and they say what have you you know we're willing to be friends and trade. Why are you attacking us? What have we done to you? And then Jefferson he wrote a letter to Congress which we still have with the ambassador's response. And to paraphrase it, he basically told him, "Our Quran says and our prophet says you're our enemy and it's our right and duty to attack and plunder and kill you and enslave you wherever we can find you." And most people don't realize he was actually paraphrasing Quran 95, which is known in Islam as the sword verse. And it says lay and wait and lay and wait wherever you can find the infidel and ambush them and kill them and enslave them. Okay. So anyway, so it's the same mentality, same logic. America's very first war. It just became a nation. It hasn't even had its first president yet, George Washington. And it gets dragged into eventually two wars. Okay, the first is the barber first Barbary War in 1801 and that drags on and again in 1815. Okay. So, you know, so

Here, look, we fast-forwarded almost 1,200 years since the Battle of Yarmouk, right, in 636. Now we're in 1815. And it's the same mentality, same logic. And it's the same thing that they tell us Islam doesn't mean that Islam means peace. And that's how, that's how effective they've been. They've gotten that narrative to become dominant. Even though the long, storied past of history is very, it's, it's, it's an unwavering continuity of Islamic hostility based on Islamic teachings and, you know, jihad.

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But back to the interview. So, we'll, we'll come up to the present day. But before we do, seeing as you've mentioned the Quran, I guess, uh, there's a, you have also said you're not a theologian. So, I, I remember, but, you know, um, uh, where do you think this comes from within Islam? And is it the behavior? Is it the example of Muhammad or the example of these first early Muslim warriors? And I think it's an important one because we look at Islamism today and, uh, it's clearly, we talk about ISIS and we, all these, the Muslim Brotherhood, talk about Israel and Hamas and, um, it's clear that there's a, there's, there's an aspect of Islam that is like, like the, the scripture you just cited that is, uh, I guess violent, um, and, um, and there's a contention there that this idea of peaceful Muslims, moderate Muslims. And I guess, yeah, I, I, I, I'm not sure exactly what my question here is, but I, the origins of all this, how it all started. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how much is this from the Quran? How much is this from Muhammad? What's your perspective on that? Yeah.

Okay. It's all, you have to understand how Islamic law works. Okay. So, according to Islam, standard Islamic teaching amongst Sunnis, who are 90% of the Muslim world, um, you know, the twin, the twin sources of authority are the Quran, which is understood to be the literal words of Allah, and then what's called the hadith. Okay, plural, it's a hadith, but I'm going to say hadiths to anglicize it. And, um, all they are are vast volumes and volumes and volumes of what Muhammad supposedly said and did. Okay. And according to the Muslim, you know, scientists as they call themselves, you know, they rank them. There's what's called sahih, meaning it's correct. It's authentic. He did say this. And that takes on almost the same value as a Quran. Okay? And there's a lot of that. Now, based on those two things, hatred for the non-Muslim is unequivocal and continuously documented. War on them as jihad, continuously documented. Uh, treating, you know, the non-Muslim who gets conquered as a dhimmi, which means they have to live as a second-class citizen and pay tribute, unequivocally documented. These are totally enshrined based on the Quran and the words of Muhammad, okay, his example. And Muslims, the word Sunni, I mentioned them, it, uh, the Sunni means like the example. So, a Sunni is trying to follow the example of Muhammad. So, Muhammad waged war on infidels, that's what we have to do as well. So, it's unequivocally clear. You know, anyone, a person will tell you that, no, Islam doesn't teach violence, etc., he's either really, really ignorant or being very, very deceptive. And it could be one or the other. Um, but if you've taken the time to study them as I have, in their original languages, and that's another problem. If you look at the Quran today, it's, they're mistranslating it intentionally. They add words that don't exist, you know. So, for example, Quran 9:29 will say, which literally says, "Fight the people of the book," which means Jews and Christians, "until they pay tribute and feel themselves subdued." Okay? And that's, that's the teaching that comes, that's what justifies jizya. It uses the word jizya. Um, a lot of English now Quran translations say, "Fight the people of the book if they fight you first." Okay? And, okay, so now it doesn't look so bad. This is again, defense of war. This is just war. The original doesn't say they fight you first. It says you attack them. So, there's unfortunately a lot of playing around with Islamic scriptures, intended to deceive infidels. Um, but, yeah, that, it's, it's just, it's that simple. That's what the two twin pillars of Islamic, the, Islam, Islam's authority, the Quran, hadith, say. And the Quran is the word of God. And I read the Quran a few years ago, and it, what the difficult thing for me, apart from certain of some certain of the scriptures like the ones mentioned already, is that it says throughout, you must take this literally. And you can't swear. So, so the idea of a sort of Islamic reformation against this seems to be tricky. Having said that, and I'll come back to Europe, but I look around the world now where I have hope with relations between the Western world and the Islamic world, is the leaders of, let's say, the Emirati leaders, um, where, where the signatories of the Abraham Accords. And I see, oh, actually, these are people who are taking Islamism seriously. They recognize the problem. They're even calling the Westerners out for not taking it serious enough. Um, the Emiratis have been fantastic on this, particularly Muhammad bin Zayed. Um, for me, the hope is that these people are interpreting the, the scripture in a certain way that means that there will be, uh, relations much improved from everything you've described in history. Do you think I'm, I'm right to feel this way?

No, I, I think there's room for optimism for, for a number of reasons. You know, the, the, the hurdle, the insurmountable hurdle is what I just described. Okay. The texts are so black and white. You know, it literally says in the Quran that if you're a Muslim, you have to hate non-Muslims. And I've watched cleric after cleric say things like, "Yeah, even if you're a married," because Islam allows Muslim men to marry Christian women or Jews. And he'll say, "Yeah, you can marry them and have fun with them sexually, but you have to hate them and you have to let them know you hate them." Okay? That's, that's how much it's so ironclad. Now, you know, and this is the whole question about what's a moderate Muslim. Okay? So, yeah, I don't believe in a moderate Islam because it's just not there. It's black and white. But I do believe in moderate Muslims because humans are subjective and they can do whatever they want, right? They can believe, they can just reinterpret it their own way. They can ignore it. I mean, so I believe you have that. It exists. It's just, it's very hard to doctrinally justify it, okay, against the hardliners. That's why they always end up winning the arguments because it goes back to what the Quran says and what the hadith says. Okay? But there's all kinds of leeway and, and, you know, ways to get around this, I suppose. Um, but you're right. A lot of people, what they don't, they say, "We want a pro," they say, "We want a reformation of Islam." And what they don't get is actually something very akin to the Protestant Reformation has been happening, and it's what led to radicalism. Okay? Not because Protestantism is radical, but the same methodology. And I'll explain what I'm saying. Protestantism essentially, uh, was, you know, *sola scriptura*. We don't, we're done with clergies and whatever. We just want the Bible. Okay? And, um, Islam, before for a while, has always been, yeah, the Quran and the Sunnah, but most people were illiterate Muslims, and you had to rely on the, and the scholars and the sheikhs, etc. And there were schools of law, and there still are, which could, you know, modify teachings certain ways or not. Well, like the Protestant Reformation, you know, since modern times, now the Quran is available on the internet, okay? And people, Muslims are literate, and they can read Arabic. And what's happening is they're becoming more and more going back to the scriptures and not caring so much about what the schools of law, they're called madhhabs, say. So, it's a, it's almost like a *sola scriptura* mentality, but the, but the result is the exact opposite. Because if you're a Christian who just goes by the Bible, well, you're going to turn the other cheek and you're going to love your neighbor and you're going to believe in monogamy, etc., etc. If you go strictly with what I'm talking about, the Quran and the Hadith, well, that's where all the hatred comes and the violence and basically a seventh-century Bedouin mentality. I mean, that's, that's what's captured there. Yeah. So, what people really want is not, um, a not a reformation of Islam, which I don't think is possible. They want an enlightenment, which was basically, you know, not even caring what the scriptures say and just rising above it. And, uh, you know, how you rationalize that people can do whatever they want. I mean, look amongst Christians, you have all kinds of different beliefs and teachings, even though one Christian will say, "No, the Bible says this." And so, of course, it can be done. Um, but you're going to need, and the leaders, you have to remember, they can do what they can do, but a lot of the, you know, the people are, you know, Saudi Arabia is our good friend and ally, and I know they're also sometimes part of these accords, etc., but they're also the chief disseminators of radical Islam, okay? They're the ones who fund this. You know, if you go to a mosque in, in England, and you find it has radical, hateful books, it's coming from Saudi Arabia. You know, so, it's, and again, we have to contend with this idea of taqiyya, allowing deception of the infidel as needed. Okay? So, we're in a weak phase, then we have to, you know, be accommodating to them and not hate them openly. So, all that needs to be taken into consideration. But having said that, I think if Western powers or the non-Muslim world just dropped the act and said, "Look, we understand your religion. We understand it has violence and we understand this, but we're not going to tolerate it." And, you know, in other words, call them out and stop playing this game as if, no, no, it's not there. It is there. Let's confront it and let's work around it. I suspect if you were to do that, then you, a lot of the problems might go away. Yeah. Because if you just, you call it out, and everyone's like, "Actually, we better behave." Yeah. Yeah. But if you keep acting, "No, no, your religion means peace. There's nothing wrong with your religion." Okay. So, it's, you're not addressing the problem.

Well, this brings me to what's going, big scandal in my country, the grooming gang scandal, where tens of thousands of young Rotherham, Rotherham. Exactly. Uh, young white, underclass girls, predominantly white. Um, there's some other Hindu girls and, and different groups, but mainly white, have been targeted because they are quote *kafir*, and *kafir* or *kufr* is *kafir* singular, *kuffar* is plural, *kuffar*. And it's still now contentious, you can't call it what it is because the perpetrators are predominantly Pakistani heritage, um, grooming gangs. Um, even calling them a grooming gang isn't quite, it's the rape gang, rape gangs is what they are. Um, and, um, we're just sort of unable to, uh, call out that, that kind of stuff. We also have, we have Islamist attack after Islamist attack. This is kind of across Europe. It's a, it's a problem. And, and this is, this is what I, I kind of want, your whole history, I wonder how we can, uh, make it relevant to what's going on now because you sort of given a historical context. And Muslims are moving to Europe on mass, in, in hugely growing Muslim populations, particularly in contrast with a declining, let's say, quote-unquote indigenous population. And Christianity is also on the decline anyway amongst those. Um, so, I, I wanted your perspective on, on how we might find social cohesion today in Europe.

Sure. Um, so, let me give you some more context because you're right, you know, the history I, I told you, and there's still elements of it that we need to talk about to make sense of what you're discussing. Um, so, one of the, you know, one of the earliest motifs amongst Islamic scholars, and this goes back to about the 8th, 9th centuries, was that, um, you know, and I hate to put it this way, but that's how they put it, like white women want it, okay? And white women are desirable, and they're the, and I was telling you about the Vikings bringing slaves, they wanted fair slaves. This is a well-documented thing that goes back to Muhammad. You know, for, during one campaign, the campaign against, it's called Tabuk, where he was supposed to fight the Eastern Roman empires, which would be Greeks, he actually tried to cajul men to join him by saying, "Don't you want the people of yellow?" And, and he talks about the women, how beautiful they are. But "yellow," I assume means hair, fair skin, whatever. Um, so, there's a long kind of like this, almost like, say, masochistic thing of presenting white women as wanting it, and just like, okay, so now fast forward, and what you're talking about, believe it or not, because I've looked into it very closely, and the Muslims, the Pakistanis and whatnot, they use the same exact logic, and they quote that, and they say, "Yeah, Islam already told us these people want it, and that's what they're for, and they like it," etc., etc.

So, just, you know, something to keep in back. It's an actual quote from Muhammad. Yeah. In a hadith. Yeah. The, the quote is that he basically said, um, you know, uh, "Don't you want the, the people of yellow?" You know, like, "Come join me on this raid so we can get pretty blonde women, basically." Okay. Okay. Okay. And, um, but even I, you know, I'm saying it starts with "N" but you find iterations of this all throughout. Okay. You know, most caliphs, people don't know this, but, uh, you know, even amongst the Ottomans, but especially in Spain, you know, their last caliph was something like 99% white. Why? Because every sultan would mate with white women, you know, and he would, you know, be half diluted. So, at the very end, a lot of these sultans were essentially blonde hair and blue-eyed, but they're Muslim sultans, right? Uh, so, this is, so anyway, my point is, this group, so you bring a Muslim population that thinks this way, and you put them in England, what do you think is going to happen? And you teach women to be promiscuous or whatever, you know, free love, etc. What's going to happen? This is going to happen, obviously. Okay. Um, as, as far as you're asking me, you know, how to get past all that. And the thing with England, and I mean, you telling me is, is the attack on sense, is free speech getting that bad? Because it seems like you can't, you can't call out, like you just said, you can't even call something what it is anymore. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other, and people being arrested and, you know, it's like, uh, anyway, so it's just amazing to me. You know, you compare and contrast what I've been talking about, which is, you know, Europeans, King Richard, speaking of England, who fought tooth and nail to keep Islam out of Europe. Okay. And now all of a sudden, and this is why history and doctrine is important, because they've told us the exact opposite of what I'm saying, which is, no, Islam is wonderful. It means peace. What are you talking about? Let's bring them in by the boatloads or whatever, millions. And guess what? You see what's happening happening because it's just a continuum of what always happened. So, on the one hand, you have Muslims walking in perfect stuck with their ancestors. And now you have Muslims in perfect discontinuity with their ancestors. You know, they've just completely rejected, or perhaps continuity with the ancestors pre, uh, the, the first invasion from the, of Islam into Europe.

So, this is like, if you go back 1500 years, that is, do you see some sort of parallel with that? Do you think, or is that a stretch?

Well, no, because there was no time in history where Islam tried to get into Europe that they said, "Come on in." They just either lost and fought, like in Spain, right? Okay. But they always resisted. So, this is the first time they've been. This is unprecedented what's happening, where, you know, you're, you're inviting them, and they're acting the same way as usual, and your people are suffering, and then you buckle down even more, and you know, stifle your people, and keep bringing in more. And, you know, it's just like, what's really going on then?

Is there anywhere else in the world outside of Europe where there is, uh, where, where Muslims and Christians and Jews have been able to live side by side? You know, in Europe, you have countries like Albania and maybe Montenegro and, Well, we had in the Bosnian War, we had concentration camps with Muslims rounded up. It's not really a great place to look. I don't. No, no, no. But by and large, those countries until now, you, you can, you can see Muslims and Christians living side by side. But the reason, honestly, is the Muslims are not very Muslim, and the Christians aren't even very Christian. In other words, the people there are very secular. You, you look at a Muslim in, you know, in a lot of these European countries, and they just, like, they don't know the first thing about. I've talked to them, and they don't, they, you know, they don't know the first thing about Islam. And, but they're Muslim by name. So, I think that's one of the reasons that you, you can have that. Look, if you want, if Muslims are going to, if Muslims are in power, and they're the dominant group, and they're upholding and following Islamic teachings, then by nature, the non-Muslim, the Jew, the Christian, is going to have to live as a second-class citizen. Okay? So, like in Egypt, for example, you know, which was a very Christian nation, and now it's 90% Muslim, it'll say 10% Christian. Okay? So, there's constant persecution, but there's all these laws against churches. Okay? So, I just read a report. Finally came out, um, you know, the, the numbers, and it, long story short, Christians are always complaining, "We need churches," and they're not allowing them to build churches. And if you go back to Islamic law, Islamic teaching, which I was discussing, is based on the hadith and so forth, you're not supposed to, Christians who are conquered, they can live and pay tribute, but they can't build their churches. So, until today, in a modern nation like Egypt, you have that law, or kernels of it, still exist. Okay? And it came out because it finally came out that when you do all the number crunching, for every one church that Christians have, Muslims have 60. If you, if you even up their numbers as population, I mean, think about how obvious in discrimination that is, okay? And they're also, but Egypt publicly will tell everyone in the world, "No, no, we treat our citizens the same." Okay? They all have the same religious freedom. But 1 to 60, that ratio, it's pretty, you know, pretty telling. So, but Egypt, you know, its constitution, Article 2, says we trace our legislation to Sharia. So, it's even in their, it's in the constitution. So, as long as Muslims are going to live, it's, it's just plain and simple. The Islamic law, Islamic teaching is black and white, and it is divisive. It is discriminatory, and it does incite violence against the non-Muslim. That's it. Okay. Now, to what extent Muslims are going to enforce that or live up to it. Okay. Maybe some don't care, and I, in that case, you can live with them. All right.

I often give a good analogy. I try to to understand what a moderate Muslim is. Okay. And it's, I, I, I, it's the Nazi analogy, okay? Which is a little, you know, hear me out. Hear me out. Oh dear. No, it doesn't sound so bad. You hear me out? Okay. So, he went there. No, no, no. All right. Here's what I'm saying. Nazism is a body of teachings. It's an ideology, okay? And it has supremacy, white supremacist ideas in it, okay? And it has other teachings, whatever. National Socialist. They come to power. Um, and then you got a guy like Oscar Schindler. All right. And he was a Nazi. He was an actual ranking Nazi. And you know his story. He saved Jews and etc. And he went out of his way, and you know, no small threat to himself, but he was a Nazi. Okay? So, my question to you is, what he did, his good deed, was that an aspect of his personality, of him rising above Nazism, or was he practicing a moderate form of Nazism? Okay. I, I think you're gonna tell me he just rose above it and did not implement the, you know, the, the supremacist aspect, killing Jews, whatever. Okay, he rose above it. And that's how we have to understand Muslims and moderate Muslims. Okay. Islam has its negative teachings, its violence, its divisiveness, its hate. Okay. If a Muslim doesn't act that way, and there, I mean, know there are, I know there's Muslims who don't do that. Okay? And they're good people. Is that because they're practicing moderate Islam, or is it because they rose above it? See, when you say that, all of a sudden people want to say, "No, no, it's a moderate Islam." But they won't do that with Nazism. They'll say, "No, Nazism is what it is. It's, it's a violent supremacist."

I think the, the, the obvious problem with that analogy is that moderate Muslims will, who I've spoken to on this show, will, rather than rising above Islam, they'll appeal to other scripture and then they'll say there's a, there's a contention here. There's a contradiction. So, we're going to appeal to this and this one where it says, you know, they will do that. You're right. But what I'm saying, which is not, you can't do that with Nazism. You can't appeal to another for side of Nazism. No, I would argue, I would argue what what's happening is they're being disingenuous. Okay? They're, they're making an appeal saying, "Oh, no, there's a way around this," and I'm telling you, no, there isn't. Okay? So, yeah, it would be like a Nazi telling you, "No, no, wait. There's aspects of Nazism where where allows for this," and you and I know there isn't. You know, so, give me an example what they would say, for example. Unfortunately, I'm not equipped enough to have this argument. But I would say that there's enough, uh, contradiction within the Quran that it's, it's clear that they would have a problem where there might not be the same contradictions in Nazism. It's pretty clear-cut what they thought about the Jews.

If you're, okay, so if you're the kind of Muslim who is, "I'm going to read the Quran and understand it my own way," and that's fine, then yeah, you can do that. But to be a true Sunni Muslim, that's not how it works. You have to follow the interpretation, the exegesis of the, you know, the authorities, and all of them are unequivocal about the topics that we're discussing because they're so ironclad. So, again, you know, for example, there's a movement among Muslims, and it's a good movement, they're called Quranists. What they want to do is, the only book they look at is the Quran, and they're done with the Sunnah, the hadith. And that would be great because, honestly, a lot of the most troubling teachings come from the hadith, not so much the Quran. The Quran is very poetic. Okay? And so, that would be a great thing, but they're a tiny, tiny minority. They're not even 1% of the Muslim population. Okay? So, you can do that, and they do exist. Um, Muslims like that, and that's more power to them. But if you're being a standard, I'm a Sunni Muslim who's just following the traditions of my fathers, and I belong to one of the four madhhabs. They have four schools of law, which are very, very similar. They just have nuance differences, but they agree about what we're talking about: execute the apostate or punish him at least, blaspheming, you know, etc., and keeping Christians and Jews suppressed. War on the infidel. These are non-negotiables. Okay? So, if you're that kind of Muslim, yeah, I mean, I can say to the infidel, "No, no, there's, there's a way around this," but that would be like me telling someone who's ignorant of Nazism, and I'd be like, "No, in Nazism, there's, there's, you know, there's room for Jews and, you know, and non-Aryans to live in peace." And, okay, you'll believe it. But it's, I'm just saying that, you know, they can say whatever they want and they can believe it, and they, there can be large numbers of Muslims who live that way, but they're not, this is not in accordance with Islamic, un-mainstream Islam, just like a Nazi can say, "No, no, I, I love, you know, non-Aryans," but yeah, that's not in accordance with Nazi ideology, right?

Um, we mentioned right at the beginning of this conversation that we would look at your work on exposing the terrible treatment of Christians by Muslims around the world. Now, this has been an amazing long conversation so far. So, I appreciate that, uh, opening. I'm breaching a new topic. But what, perhaps we can touch on some of the most recent things, and then I'll, I'll, I'll put listeners to go to your, to your, um, reporting on your website. Um, but, uh, maybe we just stick with 2025 and what's happened. We've had some reports from Congo, Nigeria, and even Syria, although it's very mixed reporting on Syria, and I'm not sure how true it is there, but, but I, I wondered, yeah, if you could explain what's going on.

So, you know, the persecution of Christians, and it really dovetails wonderfully with what we're talking about because it's again, it's part of the continuum. Uh, the persecution of Christians by Muslims has always been there from the very beginning because most of Muslim lands are in Christian territory. Um, and that's why so many of them ended up converting to Islam. And you have small minorities, and that's why they disappeared in some areas. So, the Copts, for example, who used, you know, the word Coptic, for example, just to give you an idea of how infused with Christianity it is, you know, the word Egyptian, that's the Greek word, which is *Aigyptos*, and, um, when the Arab conquerors of Egypt came, they took the word for native Egyptians, but they just took the middle syllable, *gyp*, and that became transliterated into Copt for us. So, it just means Egyptian, but it means Christian because all the Egyptians were Christians. So, Copt means Christian and Egyptian. Anyway, um, so they went from being the majority, or almost 100%, to now they're 10% because of 14 centuries of discrimination and, you know, sporadic persecution, which is well-documented, by the way. Anyone who's interesting can get a book called *A Sword Over the Nile*, which is, uh, it's not my book, but it's really great because it's based on the primary sources of what happened, uh, to the Christians of Egypt. Anyway, what's interesting is if you fast forward, so, okay, during the attacks on Christians of the Middle East, Egypt, Syria, everywhere, it was again, attacks on churches, attacks on their persons, of course, extorting money from them as a form of jizya tribute, enslaving their women and children, etc. That's still going on, okay? And it's in all the Islamic worlds to different degrees. U, maybe you've heard of a group called Open Doors? Um, okay. Okay. So, it's a humanitarian Christian international organization which has been around for decades, and every c, every year they publish a report. It's called the World Watch List, and it ranks the 50 worst nations to be a Christian where Christians are most persecuted. And I look, I write about it every year, and, you know, habitually 37, 38 of the 50 are Muslim nations. And I mean, that to me, talk about telling, right? It's like almost every Muslim nation there is a foreign, a kind of Christian persecution. Some are worse than others. Okay. Now, we can go to Africa. That's the worst. Sub-Saharan Africa. That, according to a lot of, uh, human rights groups, there's a genocide in Nigeria. And, and I follow it closely, and I think every week I have to read about dozens of Christians being killed by Muslims. Uh, and of course, the media, they, they tell you, "No, no, this is about climate, you know, change. One group is being pushed out, and they're attacking another group." And they actually do that. Well, actually, they do that, actually. Yeah. And they don't tell you that the ones being pushed out are all Muslims, and the ones being killed are all Christians. Okay? No, they actually do that. So, what, what's happening then in Nigeria? Uh, you have Muslim groups. First, you had the terrorist group called Boko Haram, which means "Western education is a sin." And all they've been doing is attacking and killing Christians. But now you have what's called the Fulani. They're herdsmen, okay, who live and, and graze their cattle, and they're attacking the Christians who are sedentary, okay? And they're just butchering and killing them and taking over their land, and of course, also engaging in destroying their churches and other the hallmarks of attacks on Christianity that emphasize that there's an ideological component. But if you talk to the professionals, and the media, this has nothing to do with religion. It literally is climate change because the pastoral Fulani are being pushed out, and they're just, they need more land. So they attack these. But for some reason, they only attack Christians, uh, never Muslim sedentary areas. Yeah. And what, how exactly does climate change force them to kill? Exactly. Where's the motivation? No.

A lot of, I remember the, I think it was the Irish president who came out and made a big scene about, "No, this is climate change. Don't talk about Islam. It's, Islam means peace." And this was like a year ago. And, uh, it's like, "Mostly peaceful climate change." Yeah. And then the next day, you know, Muslims attack a church in Nigeria and kill like 50 people, and, and all of a sudden, that too is not about religion. Um, I mean, they, I've really followed this, and the, the, the little acrobatics they play to just make you think this isn't about religion are amazing, even though it's so obvious about religion. I once quoted a nun, a black nun from Nigeria, who's like, "You know, it's, it's hard for us not to believe this is about religion when they're dressed in black, screaming Allahu Akbar, and break the cross, you know, and you tell me it's about climate change." So, so that's Nigeria. But in Sub-Saharan, in Nigeria, do we have a sense of the death toll?

I've seen various reports, and it apparently got really, really bad starting around 2009, and has been going on and off. But I would say, you know, maybe 70,000. Yeah. Just butchered.

And what has the Christian response been to that? The Nigerian Christian, or Nigerian, or the greater Christian?

Great at Christian responses. It's not happening. You know, and there's nothing to see here. You know, black lives apparently only matter if they're not Christian. You know, that it's, it's really, it's, it's one of those things where if it was the opposite, if this was, let's say, Muslims being killed by Christians, this would be on the news nonstop, everyone would know about it, you know. But such as it is, uh, and, and again, why, why do you think that the, the Christians don't care about this? I mean, I think to a great degree, a lot of them don't know. So, they're basically just misled by the media that they trust. You know, Fox News isn't going to talk about this either, right? So, for whatever reason, this isn't a topic for them. But I'd have hoped that like the Church of England, or the leaders of the churches who do know about it, they absolutely know about it, would be every single day, every single church service, they'd be proud. You know, also, a lot of these churches don't want to antagonize Muslims, and they're more excited and more proud about holding hands with a Muslim imam and showing their wonderful, you know, ecumenism outreach. So, a lot of them don't want to. Pope Francis, you know, he puts, he writes in encyclicals about this and that. How about Christians being butchered left and right, you know? Um, any word on that? Nope. We don't want to talk. So, again, you have to understand that amongst Christians of all denominations, there's this political correctness, this need to like make Muslims look good, and, you know, etc., etc. So, they don't want to talk about it. It's, uh, if you talk about Christian persecution, you totally overthrow the narrative that they've been trying to build because, you know, if you talk about Muslims attacking Israel, okay, it kind of makes sense because they're the underdog, they're angry, they're fighting back. Okay. But if you look at the Muslim world, and you realize Muslims are dominant there, and they're persecuting their tiny minorities simply because of religious differences, because they're not Muslims, then you start realizing, okay, so Muslims are just, uh, intolerant. And maybe this isn't about what's happening in Israel. Maybe this is just something among them. Um, so, that I've noticed, and I've been following this and writing about it a lot, Muslim persecution of Christians has been one of those no-go topics. We don't want to, we don't want to go there because there's no rationale to it. Muslims attack Israel. Muslim bomb Western cities. Oh, they have grievances. Oh, this. Oh, that. But if you find it's an institutionalized discrimination and persecution of minorities simply because they're not Muslim, how do you get around that? Well, the way you get around it is you don't talk about it.

And you put that back to that Quran that you cited earlier about the people of the book and, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one of the verses. Uh, yeah. "Fight the people of the book." Quran, uh, 9:29. But there's others in the hadith telling you how to treat Christians. If you see a Christian or Jew, you have to push them against the wall, don't say *salam*, don't say hello, uh, to Christians and Jews, all sorts of things. You have to hate them, even though you have to live with them, etc., etc. So, yeah, it all traces back to these scriptural injunctions.

Uh, so, we've covered Nigeria. Um, and you've written about what's going on in Congo. Um, what, that's also come up in the news this year.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Well, I think, uh, a month ago or so, maybe two months ago, they entered a church and found 70 decapitated Christians. Okay. And it was by an Islamic terror group, which, funny enough, goes by its name is something democracy. Okay. Uh, it's, it's part of this group called, uh, I, I forget, but if you look it up, something democracy, and they're a rebel group, and it sounds like they're leftist, and maybe they have leftist elements. Um, but they also have a jihadist wing, who does what, you know, decapitated 70 Christians. Again, if you look into it, you know, if you dig in, you're going to see the hallmarks. Oh, this is about ideology. It's about hatred for Christians. Okay. The narrative, "No, this is just some rebel group, and those are just poor innocent victims that were caught up in the war." And, and, and it gets very, you know, it's very hygienic, and we don't talk about the religious element, okay? You get, if you're following the mainstream media, right? But if you, you know, look into it as I do, and I look at all the sources, it's very clear what's going on.

Is it, is it worse? You said earlier it's worse in Africa, right? Is it worse in Africa because that's the continent where most Christians and Muslims are living side by side?

That's a good question. And I think that is part of it. Well, I guess Europe more probably. Yeah. But I mean, for example, Nigeria is literally 50/50. You know, it's 50% Christian, 50% Muslim. And isn't that interesting that it's like a full-blown civil war essentially going on over there? Um, there's this idea about, you know, Islam, Muslim populations, as it grows, uh, and this is sort of historically demonstrable, but, you know, if it's a small population, let's say 1%, which is like America, yeah, they're just going to be sort of vocal, kind of from a, you know, "my rights" type thing, like leftist groups, let's say. But when they become like, let's say 10%, then like in Europe, in certain countries and cities, then you get a lot of criminality and you get these enclaves and no-go zones. So, I've heard by various sources. Um, and then when it grows, let's say 50%, now you have a war, you have a full jihad. Okay. When it keeps growing, and now it's 70, 80%, then the, you know, the infidel is completely suppressed. Look at Saudi Arabia, you can't even, you can't even have a church or anything there. Um, or they're suppressed, you know, tremendously. Um, so, it's actually, it's, it's very unwavering. And for Europe, it's unfortunate because these numbers, I saw a Pew poll say, like in 2050, you know, in Germany, Muslims are going to be like 40% of the population. I mean, at that point, yeah, it's going to be like Nigeria. It's going to be a war because why not?

Uh, I, I mentioned, uh, Syria. Um, what, there's mixed reporting here. So, I'm, I'm hesitant to say that I am too.

Yeah. Right. You agree with my? Yeah. It's very, it's very confusing what's really going on. Sometimes you hear it's Christian, sometimes you hear it's not. It's, you know, Alawite and it's, Yeah. It's, we have to wait for this, you know, smoke to settle, kind of. Yeah.

Um, well, I encourage listeners and viewers to go to your web page where you have all of this. I mean, I couldn't quite believe it when I went on because it's, you've been documenting these attacks on Christians for, Oh, yeah. Many, many, many years. 2012, I think. No, no, it's 2011. Sorry. Okay. So, well over a decade. And it, as far as I found, and including Christian websites, this is the, the most thorough documentation.

Thank you. Um, and it's, it's pretty, uh, shocking stuff, and perhaps something that we can go into on another conversation. Um, but, um, Raymond, before we close out, we've covered so much, and we've, we've swept through 1400 years of history, um, and couldn't obviously possibly, uh, complete every sentence. Um, but is there anything you want to add before we close this out, um, about everything we've discussed? Any important ingredients you think I might have skimmed over too quickly?

No, I just, you know, to, you know, to cap it off is just really to emphasize that there's such a, you know, a gap in people's knowledge, and it's by design. You know, this isn't just ignorance because, whatever. It's been for decades building up where information, like I said, fake history, which is more potent in many ways than fake news, um, has been like accelerating. And so people really need to, um, educate themselves and don't look to the professionals because, you know, they're not going to do it because a lot of them, and a lot of them maybe even agree with me, but they have a career and they don't want to lose their job. You know what I mean? So, a lot of that. So, I think you just have to independently educate yourself about the truth about the history and about the doctrine of Islam. And, uh, if you do that, you know, it'll all fall into place. And I'm not trying to promote anger or hatred. My thing is, I believe the more we have truth, the more we can act on it and the better. But if truth is suppressed, then there's no remedy because you can't fix something until you acknowledge the issue. Yeah. You know, and if you just let it fester and boil and simmer over, well, that's just even worse. So, the number one thing I would just tell people to objectively educate themselves on these topics, and I think everything else will fall into place. Yeah.

You've mentioned a couple of your books there. Uh, any others that you want listeners and viewers to know about? And, um, where can they find you online? Your social media and website?

So, my website is basically my name, RaymondIbrahim.com. And there you'll get all my articles, my videos. I make YouTube videos too, you can see me there. And I have social media links to, to the ones, even though most of them I'm shadowbanned on because nobody sees anything that I post, they tell me. Um, but the books, I would say, if you want to do what I just said, educate yourself, the number one book that I wrote would be *Sword and Scimitar: Fourteen Centuries of War Between Islam*, because I give the barebone theology and doctrine that you need to understand about Islam without going into every detail. And then I give the history that we just discussed, and I really document it, and I go all the way up until the present and show the parallels. Um, so, I would, you know, that would be the book that I would, uh, primarily suggest for anyone. Yeah.

Um, Raymond, I would like to say it was a pleasure speaking with you, but frankly, it's, it's a jarring. It's been, it's been hard, brutal, uh, history, and particularly what's going on right now is, is really, well, trying me sometimes. Um, Raymond Ibrahim, thank you so much for speaking with me.

And my pleasure. We must do it again. I enjoyed it. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for watching the Winston Marshall Show. That was Raymond Ibrahim. If you want to support this show, remember, all you have to do is press subscribe. And if you want ad-free viewing and exclusive content, videos, and interviews, head over to winmarshall.co.uk. But until next time, be