Transcription
Dr. David K. Bernard has had numerous debates and discussions with Trinitarians about the subject of the Godhead. This week on Apostolic Life in the 21st Century, Dr. Bernard shares what he has learned from these experiences. This episode is for anyone who wants to effectively engage in conversations that move others toward a Biblical understanding of the Godhead and the identity of Jesus Christ.
Welcome to Apostolic Life in the 21st Century, a podcast dedicated to helping modern-day believers live out the teachings of the first-century church. This podcast is part of the Teaching Ministry of Dr. David K. Bernard. Dr. Bernard has dedicated his life to studying the Bible and helping believers apply its message to their daily lives. In Apostolic Life in the 21st Century, Dr. Bernard answers your questions about what the Bible teaches and how those teachings apply to everyday life.
Thank you for joining us for this episode. If you enjoy this podcast, we encourage you to check out Dr. David K. Bernard's books. Dr. Bernard has written more than 30 books on biblical theology and Christian living and leadership. Visit PentecostalPublishing.com and search David Bernard for a list of available titles. Use promo code DKB10 at checkout to save 10% on your order. That's PentecostalPublishing.com, promo code DK10 to save 10% at checkout.
Throughout the course of your ministry, you've had opportunities to debate and discuss the subject of the Godhead with many Trinitarians. And by the way, for those who are listening to this podcast, they can listen to or watch some of those debates and discussions on your YouTube channel. As the General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church, you have been called upon, and as, as well as not, not just the General Superintendent, but you're also a leading Oneness Pentecostal scholar. You've been charged with representing the Oneness Pentecostal movement to what we might call the broader Christian world in a variety of settings. What principles have guided your discussions in, in your interactions with Trinitarians? And what advice do you have for the members of this audience, whether they're a lay member, a pastor, um, who's interacting with other Trinitarians, with Trinitarian pastors, leaders, or people in their, um, community, particularly when they're discussing theological disagreements?
Well, first of all, let me just give you some resources. Um, my basic book on the subject is called The Oneness of God, and the sequel, which goes more into detail in key passages of scripture that are often used by Trinitarians, is The Oneness View of Jesus Christ. Now, if someone wants a scholarly study which uses technical terms and interacts with latest scholarship, my doctoral thesis, The Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ. And that is also available through PentecostalPublishing.com, as well as directly from the publisher, which is Brill. Uh, so those are some resources on the doctrine of God, the Oneness of God. But let's talk about how we interact with Trinitarians. So, first, I would say we need to have a clear understanding of what we believe and what scripture teaches. So, we, we need to have a clear understanding of what we mean by the Oneness of God. The Oneness of God essentially has two propositions. First of all, there is one God with no distinctions in his eternal essence, no persons or centers of consciousness. Uh, manifestations, works, yes, we believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but at the end of the day, we believe in one personal God with one personality, one center of consciousness. And that's established in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as many other passages. I'll hasten to add, some Trinitarians really come almost to that same point. There's a strong debate within Trinitarianism whether there is one center of consciousness or three centers of consciousness. But we would clearly say there's one divine center of consciousness.
Just a quick question. Do you have any idea is the majority on one side or the other of that debate?
You know, if you look at a lay level, the majority doesn't know. And probably, I would say in my interaction with the average layperson, the most common reactions are, it's a mystery, I don't know, or, you know, now that you explain it, that's the way I see it. Only a small minority would be adamant Trinitarians, and that's usually because they've been trained that way or because they've had encounters with Oneness people and they, they're trying to distinguish themselves clearly. There's a common expression that goes back to early times that the Trinity is a mystery. So if you, um, if you try to understand the Trinity, you lose your mind. But if you deny the Trinity, you lose your soul. So in other words, don't try to investigate, just believe it. Um, but, um, so, but my, my thought would be, so let me go back to the first point. So we have to understand the Oneness doctrine, and it has two parts. The first part, there's one God with no distinction of persons, no distinctions in his eternal essence. But the second part is Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the one God. He is the Son of God, which means the one true God manifested in the flesh. He's both human and divine. So there is a human center of consciousness, or, or maybe I would not say center, but I would say he had both divine and human self-consciousness within his one nature. And that's a big subject. That is that is a mystery. The mystery of the Incarnation, not a mystery of God, which I think I've discussed that before. But the concept of Jesus being the Son of God and true human is very important. But for our purposes right now, um, we would emphasize that Jesus is the one true God incarnate, that all, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him. So Jesus is the manifestation and revelation of the Father. Jesus is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. So my first main point is you have to understand the Oneness of God with its various nuances as I've just described in two parts.
The second thing I would say is you need to understand Trinitarianism, which we kind of started. But the doctrine of the Trinity is that there's one God in three persons. Now, we often hear them as speaking of three gods. And indeed, we can press them, the logic of your position would lead you to three gods, which directly contradicts Deuteronomy 6:4 and hundreds of other passages. But they deny they mean that. So I think at least we can't just say Trinitarianism believes in three gods. We have to at least take them at their word and try to reason with them and show the problem. So they say there's one God, but three persons. Of course, the trick is, what do you mean by person? And if you mean like a self-conscious being, as in colloquial modern English, well, that is three gods, and that is a direct contradiction of scripture. But if you mean, on the other hand, manifestations, well, that's the Oneness position. So Trinitarians, one good way to talk to them is, what do you mean by person? Uh, and another way to ask that is, oh, so when you get to heaven, are you going to see three persons on three thrones? If you say yes, well, that's three gods. You just, just contradicted what you claimed. Moreover, it contradicts scripture, because Revelation 4 says there's one on the throne, there's one throne and one on the throne. And in Revelation 22, we actually know who that is. The one on the one throne is called God and the Lamb, but not as two beings sitting side by side on one throne or in one another's lap, but God, the Lamb is one being with one name, one face. That's off. You see Jesus Christ, he's the one true God who, according to his human identity, was sacrificed for our sin as the Lamb. So the Book of Revelation is clear, there's one God on one throne. He's going to be revealed as Jesus Christ. So that's, uh, so I found a good way to ask the Trinitarians, what do you believe? One God, three persons? And so there's this tension. And they'll usually say, it's a mystery. You say, okay, but who are you praying to? Do you spend five minutes to the Father, five minutes to the Son, five minutes to the Holy Spirit? Well, then you have three gods. But if you just pray in Jesus' name to one God, you know, maybe you are more like us. When you get to heaven, if you're going to see three different beings on three thrones, that's three gods that contradict scripture. If you're going to see one, who is that one? And if you say Jesus, well, now you're more Oneness than a Trinitarian. Uh, and I press them on that because many sometimes they'll say, I don't know. And he, we say, well, it's okay if we don't know all things about heaven and the future and the last things. But you mean you don't know who you're going to see? You don't know who you're praying to? You don't know who you're worshiping? You don't have a clear understanding? If you look at Trinitarian artwork, they'll, they'll have an old man, a young man, and a dove. Is that literal? Is that, you go to heaven, one of your, you're going to see an old man, a young man, and a dove, and you're going to worship the dove, the animal? Or sometimes the artwork has three identical men, or one person, one male or man figure with three faces. Well, of course, these are probably all symbolic. But what I'm saying is, in just talking to them, you need to understand what they say, but then use that to press them, what do you really believe?
Now, my third point, and, and I'll be careful here, I, and I, in saying talking about this as fellow Oneness believers, it's some of this can be a little humorous, but I don't mean to be disrespectful. We're going to approach Trinitarians, we have to approach with respect. Um, the Golden Rule, Matthew 7:12, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So you, you seek to hear them, to understand them, to find common ground where you can agree, and then respectfully disagree. Don't deny that they may have genuine faith, genuine love for God. So you're not trying to win an argument, but you're trying to win a soul, or you're trying to at least create a bridge where there's a common understanding that maybe you can lead them to, to further truth. So that should be your attitude. A lot of times, I like to say this, I'm not an anti-Trinitarian, I'm a non-Trinitarian. What do I mean by that? My mission is not to fight against the Trinity. It is true, I'm not a Trinitarian in the classical sense. I don't believe one God is three distinct persons, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-people who are Trinitarian. And in fact, I don't preach against the Trinity. I preach for the truth as I see it in scripture. So when I preach, I'm never attacking the Trinity. I'm just preaching the themes of scripture, one God, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, Son of God, power in the name of Jesus. People respond, whether they're Trinitarians or Oneness, they respond to the message of scripture, they believe it, they respond to it, they repent, they're baptized in Jesus' name, they receive the Holy Ghost. Now, sometimes when I'm doing detailed teaching, I may, as a teaching tool, say, here's what we believe, and here's a contrast to Trinitarianism to show the difference, and here's the scripture that will show why these Trinitarian concepts are erroneous. So, uh, it's not, you know, so there will be times I'll explain the error of Trinitarianism, but my basic, uh, point is not to be against the Trinity because I don't even believe there is a Trinity. My point is to be for the doctrine of God and for the identity of Jesus Christ as the one true God manifest in the flesh.
So that's the approach. And if you're going to have a discussion that you want to persuade, you try to find the common ground. What can we agree on? There's one God. Jesus is truly God. But now let's press the points of disagreement. Is the fullness of the Godhead in Jesus as Colossians 2:9 states, or is he just one of three different persons? Um, who are you going to see in heaven? Three or one? And if you're going to see one, who's the one? Um, so some of those questions. Do you think there are three different spirits or one Spirit? Can you feel the presence of the Father on one side of the room and presence of the Son over here and the presence of the Spirit? Or is there one Spirit, one presence? If so, in what meaningful sense are there three different persons? So I, I have a number of questions in my book, The Oneness of God, that try to press into that a little bit more. But my basic thought would be, we find common ground. If you believe there is one God, you believe Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God, meaning God manifest in the flesh, he's our Lord and Savior. If you're willing to repent of your sins, if you're willing to open your heart to receive the Holy Spirit, and then we show them, as we've discussed other podcasts about the truth of water baptism in Jesus' name. I do believe even if someone doesn't have a completely, uh, comprehensive or accurate understanding of God, they can still believe Jesus as Lord and Savior and obey Acts 2:38. So that's how children in our ranks are saved. That's how most visitors who come and are saved. Most of them don't intellectually go through a, a lengthy understanding of changing from Trinity to Oneness. They just respond in faith to the message, and I think they're saved thereafter, according to 2 Peter 3:18, grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So these things are very important. But I, and and maybe for some, before they're willing to be baptized in Jesus' name, they have to have complete, comprehensive understanding. And that's fine. But my point would be to lead people to lead faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Son of God, God manifest in flesh, lead them to obey Acts 2:38. And when they do, they're filled with the Spirit. Jesus said the Spirit is given to lead and guide into all truth. So, so really, you're going to be more productive if someone will obey Acts 2:38. It will be easier to lead them further into truth. Now, as I said, sometimes we may need to have this discussion to get them to that point, and that's perfectly fine. But if, if that's the case, we have to keep our end goal in mind. We want to treat them with respect. We want to see where they are and show them the inadequacies of their position, but lead them to a more full understanding, building on the positive things they have, but lead them into a fuller understanding, knowing that ultimately God has to enlighten them, open their understanding so they can see the truth of scripture for themselves. And then they will get, uh, a clear, we call it a revelation, and we don't mean an extra-biblical revelation, but we mean a personal enlightening and opening of our understanding to understand what the Bible teaches about God and about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Apostolic Life in the 21st Century. If you enjoy this podcast, please take a moment to give us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. We also appreciate it when you share Apostolic Life in the 21st Century with a friend or family member, and make plans to join us again next time as we look at how the Bible applies to everyday life.