Transcription
So really, I mean, first, I mean, can you just tell us a little bit about, I guess, yourself, your role, uh, with Assemblies of God World Missions, kind of where you started and where you're at now?
Yeah, sure. I, uh, I actually grew up in Africa. So, went to Africa when I was a little kid. I guess I was about three years old when I first got there, and and uh, stayed there all the way through high school.
Which country? Back to the states, uh, what's that? Which country? Uh, Tanzania, Kenya. So, um, you know, I'm pretty comfortable in that world, so that's kind of, that's kind of my background. So, when I when I get to go back to Africa frequently, it's it's comfortable for me.
So, so you grew up kind of in that situation where, you know, all of us kids, we were always worried that, you know, we were going to get called to Africa and have to go live in a hut, right?
Yeah, minus the hut, that was actually your experience, right?
Oh, yeah. Actually, Africa for a kid back in those days was amazing. I had, I grew up in a little village, literally a little village. My my dad was teaching at a Bible school; he was principal in this little Bible school kind of out in the bush outside of a town called Aveo, Tanzania. Just, just idyllic. I mean, little African, beautiful little African village. Had all these, lot African friends I played with every day. You know, I was the only kid around with a like a a red, a red rider bike. You know, I had a bike and a little red wagon. And so, you know, those were the toys of the village. Man, we had a blast; it was good stuff.
So, you grew up on the field, and then you ended up with your own call really to missions, right?
And yeah, you know, I think part of those early years begin to shape my understanding of Africa and kind of what what uh, missions is. Yeah. And so, out of that grew a call that that grew and matured um, through my life. And then the Lord was gracious enough to allow us to go back to the field. We worked in um, again, we worked in Tanzania initially for about 13 years, and we were in Kenya for about 13 years. So, 26 years on the field, and then and then they asked us to come to the states to do what we're doing now, which which is basically, it's giving oversight to our missionaries who live on the continent and work in Africa.
Yes, you're the regional director over Africa. So, how many, how many missionaries do you oversee?
Well, we have probably, uh, you know, depending on how many MAS or MAPS workers, things like that, we have around 350, something like that in your region.
Yeah, yes. So, I mean, AGWM has been around for 100 years, right? I mean, yes.
Yeah. So, it's probably one of the largest and most well-respected missions organizations in the world. I mean, why, why do you think that is? Why do you think AGWM has really had the impact that it's had over the last century now?
Well, you know, that's a very good question, Eric. I think a large part of it really is the Holy Spirit has been very, very gracious to us as a mission, as an organization, as a fellowship, to the Assemblies of God. And then there were some early people, or there were some people early on, I should say, a lady by the name of Alice Luce who began to understand this whole thing of the indigenous church and begin to understand that it's important for us to not only plant the church on foreign soil but then to enable that church to become functional within its own context so that it flourishes within its own soil there. And she began to um, to preach that in um, our circles, and it began to catch on.
Yeah. And so, at a time when colonialism was at its heights, at a time when um, foreign regimes were running places like Africa literally, I mean, you know, it was being colonized right and left, the Holy Spirit helped us as the Assemblies of God to not go in there and to plant an American church but somehow to plant an indigenous church that became African or Latin American or or, you know, what, or Chinese. And so, from that, I believe um, the church just flourished. So, I so I think that's part of the reason that that um, God's been so gracious, and and the churches has flourished and grown so much overseas in the Assemblies of God.
So, so that would be a key part, I guess, of what you would consider AGWM and missiology as the indigenous church. Um, you know, so I mean, if you if you were to describe kind of the missiology that you guys use, you know, an AGWM at large, but what you use in Africa, I mean, how how would you define that? I mean, is that a huge part of it?
Oh, that absolutely, Eric. I mean, it's very basically um, it's the three self. So, so we say the indigenous church would be would be a church that that is self-governing, that means it has its own leadership. So, it would be a church that is self-supporting, that means it it relies on Jesus for its own funding; in other words, they believe in tides and offerings, and they're not relying on, you know, people uh, like Americans to, right, and take care of them. And and then and then self-propagating, which means they reproduce themselves through the power of the Holy Spirit. So, they plant their own churches; they they do their own witnessing; they're not relying on any any sort of outside sources to grow and reproduce themselves. So, those are the the very kind of basic things of of what the indigenous church is.
And I know you guys are are working in, you know, all kinds of places, all kinds of countries, but I know there is a huge uh, push towards unreached areas of the world, um, UPGs, 10/40 window, I guess whatever we want to call it, right? But it has that always been part of the heartbeat of uh, of Assemblies of God World Missions as well?
I I think so. I mean, I think back to the very beginning, um, you know, some of the older documents talk about seeking out the unengaged places and and and um, I I think, you know, it's it's not only been sort of our DNA, but I think it's it's somewhat a biblical DNA. I mean, I think yeah, I I think, you know, even Paul talked about not wanting to build on others' foundations, and and you know, there's there's a a nuance and and you know, there's there's there's a missiological um, you have to maneuver your relationships with churches that you've planted in positive ways; you don't abandon them, but at the same time, you partner with them to go to new places. And I think um, I think Pentecostal people will always be looking for the frontiers of lostness. I think the Spirit of God will always be driving us to places where people still do not know Jesus, to places where they still do not have an adequate witness. Yeah, we will never be satisfied to stay in places that are Christianized, and and um [Music] and and you know, that's I think that's just who we are as as Pentecostal believers.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean, my my first real encounter with, I mean, obviously we've been working, funding missions projects and things like that to unreached places, but it was actually in Tanzania. I was with uh, David Whittington and and uh, Nick Stuva. They were taking me out to Lake Eyasi with uh, Gillandolfi, which was an experience for me. I tell people it was one of the most meaningful nights of my life that I never want to experience again; that's what I that's what I tell people because it was a bit overwhelming for me. But we actually, on our way out there, uh, we kind of crested this hill; it was time for us to take a break on the four-hour drive, you know, and uh, there was a woman walking; she was carrying a little baby, and the baby was sick. And they got out, and Gill and Nick were kind of interacting with her, and and uh, in that process, you know, she was she told, told us she was taking the baby to the witch doctor in the next town because the baby was sick. And so, they started talking to her about the gospel; they started talking to her about Jesus. And at one point, through the translator, um, Gil had said to her, you know, "We would love to introduce you to Jesus," I think was the way the translation came through. And her eyes, they just got big, and she said, "I would love to meet Him. I will be back at my home this afternoon; I will make some tea if you would bring Him to the house; I would I would love to meet Him." Right? And it was the first time in my life that, you know, we kind of we kind of chuckled about it, right? It was kind of funny in the moment, but then you realized the poignant moment there that this woman had literally never heard the name of Jesus before. And to know that there are three billion people in the world um, that uh, have no adequate witness of the God or no access, right? No access to the gospel, which is even, you know, um, more catastrophic.
So exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So well, I know that's a a key part of the missiology of Assemblies of God World Missions as well. And I have a board member who actually thinks the word missiology is made up; he thinks it's a made-up word. Um, he's like, "I've never heard that word before, missiology. You're just making you're making things up like that." Um, so I know when we talk about UPGs, right, I mean, you guys have uh, the Live Dead movement has kind of launched out of of uh, Assemblies of God World Missions or as a part of Assemblies of God World Missions to these areas of uh, of the unreached. But you guys have launched now to a business as mission office, or we call it BAM, and you're a partner of the board of the BAM office, right? Um, and I know BAM and UPGs, all that stuff is kind of intertwined uh, for you guys. So, can you tell us a little bit about BAM and the BAM office and why you guys feel business as mission is becoming such a part of of your missiology?
Yeah. Well, I think access is the is the word that I would use really. I think business gives us access to places that we wouldn't have otherwise, and legitimate businesses, businesses that are functional, that operate correctly. But the reason you're there is to plant the church; you're not there to make money; you're not there as a businessman necessarily, even though you hope to make money, and even though you want to be a good businessman, the truth is the reason you're there is to plant the gospel of Jesus Christ and to engage people with His love. And in order to do that, you need a platform; in order to do that, you need access. And so, businesses mission gives us that access into places we could never be otherwise. So, that's basically, I mean, that's that's fairly simple, but that's the bottom line of it. And it has become really an integral part of our missiology and is really growing, and I think probably um, is the wave of the future in a lot of ways. And and and provides some incredible potential for funding opportunities. You know, as as funding may be difficult one way or another in America, you might be able to somehow be self-funded through some BAMs, right? Um, there's just, it's just a very uh, interesting new way to engage.
Yeah, um, a very old Holy Spirit call, right? Now it's cool. And what we see even here in the states, right? Even with the business that we run here, we're in the housing business, right? I mean, yes, marketplace and business are actually beautiful mechanisms; I mean, done well and done right, business is about serving people; it's about adding value to the lives of another human being. And through that, through that, relationships develop. And so, business actually, business done well, done right, done to it to honor people, to create jobs, to bring value to a community, it's the perfect mechanism for the gospel, right? Whether we're here, whether we're here in the states or whether we're in North Africa, East Africa, you know, um, to the ends of the earth today. So, um, yeah, it's been an honor to be, you know, connected with you guys in that regard. So, um, and I want to honor your time here. So, can you just, I guess, as we wrap this up, can you can you think of a story? I mean, is there is there a story? I mean, I know I know you probably got a million of them running through your head, right? But I mean, tell us, as we talk about AGWM, AGWM missiology, what is God doing? Tell us a story of something that's happening somewhere in the world um, that would kind of wrap this time up.
Well, I, you know, I would love to tell you about some folks in the Somali world somewhere. You know, it's it's maybe important not to be too specific here um, or to use specific names.
Yep.
There is a person that um, our team, who by the way operates a BAM in this particular area, businesses mission, they have a business there, and that they have been working with this um, this young lady for a long, long time. She was engaged with them; she was part of, she came to their BAM and interacted with them at their business, and and they became acquainted with her more and more, and um, and she continued to um, get closer and closer to to this group. They continued to talk to her about Jesus, continued to express the love of Jesus to her in a lot of different ways. And at some point in time, she came back to them and told them that she now had a relationship with Jesus and that this was a wonderful thing, which which in and of itself is awesome, right? But then she began to go back to her people and what we would call witness to them, and her family begin to come to Jesus. Now, these are Somali people; these are people that this is a very um, challenging world to be a Christian in, to say the least.
That that's to say the least.
Yes. Yeah. But these people um, continue to come to Christ, and and so in in an amazing way, through a BAM, through some people that were very foreign to her, foreign to her culture, foreign to her religious ways of life, but through a business had inroads into her life to the extent that she not only got saved and is being discipled, but now some of her people are being discipled and have actually gone so far as to be baptized and to want to have what they call Christian names, which, you know, um, so it's it's just it's an amazing thing. And there are so many stories like that, yeah, of of how God just in little groups here and there in some incredibly difficult places, some incredibly demonic places, resistant places, the Holy Spirit's just kind of bubbling up into people and making a difference. It's yeah, it's really cool.
Well, and and from what I know of, I mean, to see one Somali person baptized, right? I mean, that would be like filling a stadium full of people in other parts of the world.
Oh, my, absolutely. Um, and you probably know this story, Eric. I mean, you've probably heard the people tell it, and you you probably know the names.
Yes, yes.
Well, we were we were in a certain part of the Muslim world last year and got to see a local indigenous person uh, baptized, you know, the first first person they know in this area, of the first church in that in that part of of Africa. And so, I know what it's like to to kind of weep and be overwhelmed and and uh, to see what what God is capable of doing in some of the most uh, dark and unreached places of the world.
Well, I I just want to say, I mean, Greg, you've you've been a blessing to me and just a friend over the last few years. I just want to I want to thank you personally for that, but I also just want to thank you for the work you do with AGWM. Um, you're making a difference in the lives of thousands and thousands of people across the world, and um, you know, I have nothing but uh, immense respect for you and for AGWM and for all that you guys do. So, thank you.
Well, Eric, thank you. We love you and Mandy. We appreciate you guys um, and and sincerely appreciate what you do, what your business does, what Stone Table does. Our the partnership is awesome, and and um, and and we're we're far better together; there's no doubt. I think, you know, you're kind to say the things that you say, but the truth is we're in this together.
Yeah, it is. We're we're in this thing together; we stand shoulder to shoulder and hold this work up together. So, we appreciate you and love you guys, man.
Well, uh, same here, and I really appreciate the time, man, that you would take some time to talk to us. I think it's uh, these are just important stories to tell, and um, you know, I think what Assemblies of God World Missions is doing is uh, um, is pretty special. So, keep up the great work.