Transcription
JOEY: I was living with my mom. She pretty much told me that she had thought he was like the devil. She told me she had seen, like, a vision, and that she believed--
ORNA GURALNIK: She had a vision.
JOEY: Yeah, she had seen a vision that he was a black blob--
- Headless.
- Representing a demon.
ORNA GURALNIK: What did you say? Headless. Headless? Oh, no. Bodyless and being dragged around.
[SERIOUS MUSIC]
LAUREN: I had woken up and went to the restroom. And I hadn't really gotten to see her, or connect with her. And so I think I was really craving, like, just some physical touch and attention. And so I got back into bed, and I snuggled up to her. I will add that when we go to sleep, we snuggle every night. But it's been a thing, like-- It has been a thing about stay off. That she's been, like, get away. Like, like--
- Oh, come on. I've never said--
- Well, no. Not, get away. But it's been like--
ORNA GURALNIK: Wait.
SARAH: Yeah. Let's do each their own version.
SARAH: OK.
ORNA GURALNIK: Say your version, unedited. I feel it is, like, get away. I need, like, my space. Or perhaps I am, like, scooting over in the night. But she-- like, no matter where we start off the evening at, when I wake up, I kind of, like, want to be near her. I think she'll say that, like, she said to scoot over in a normal tone. It didn't really feel like a normal tone.
ORNA GURALNIK: It felt like?
Rejection.
ORNA GURALNIK: So just for the sake of understanding the subtext of these kind of dynamics, if you had to say what it feels like, if you go a notch under, like, the rational part of it, what's going on there for you? It's like, goddamn. I'm just like, I just want to be near you. And you're, like, push me away. And I feel like I get, like, snapped at. As if-- I don't know, maybe that I'm selfish, or too much?
ORNA GURALNIK: Too much. Maybe. Like, I'm smothering.
ORNA GURALNIK: OK, like, what did you hear Lauren say? What's Lauren's ultimate experience of this kind of--
That I was attacking her first thing in the morning for trying to snuggle me. No, that's not what she said. What I heard, and tell me if I'm capturing something, what I heard Lauren say is, I'm coming to you with my want for love and affection. And you're rejecting me as if I'm too much. Or as if--
- It is too much.
ORNA GURALNIK: Hold on. Hold on. Don't-- you're moving back to yourself. This business of, like, coming close to someone is a place of great vulnerability. To feel like you're doing it wrong there has the potential to be deeply wounding, humiliating. But is that, Lauren, is that-- is there more to this?
Yeah. I mean, obviously, it has to be. Like, the way I reacted was over the top.
SARAH: This wasn't even the fight. The fight lasted all fucking day because she chose to get super angry and just keep digging, and start bringing up past shit. And all I had been saying was, give me some space. I mean, I don't-- And it feels like-- She's ignoring my boundary.
ORNA GURALNIK: And it feels like she's ignoring it because--
Because she just wants what she wants and she doesn't give a shit where I'm at, or what I want. I mean, it's indicative of a bigger problem. Like, this is how a lot of things operate in our relationship.
Meaning?
SARAH: There has been, like, this sense of entitlement in the past that has been at the core of our problems. And--
ORNA GURALNIK: Tell me about that.
SARAH: Lauren is the breadwinner in our family. In the very beginning, it was like I was her assistant because I didn't have, like, I was figuring my shit out job wise. It's not like we had a conversation and I'm like, you're my assistant. No, I didn't say that. But that's how you treated me. That since you're not the one making money, then--
SARAH: Then I should be doing--
You should help. It was expected that, like, I was going to get up every morning before her, and make the coffee, and give it to her. And when she came home from work, I was going to have dinner on the table, and I was going to do all the laundry, and like, that I was going to be there to do everything.
I don't think that's totally true. I think there was a bit of, like, I'm trying to help us survive, and get this new job, and make money. And I needed help. We have struggled with this. I felt to an extent that, yes, if someone's going to sacrifice some time, it makes sense for the person who's not earning, like, close to as much, like not even close to-- like, who's not, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't earning, wasn't keeping us afloat even in the slightest, that that made sense. I have--
ORNA GURALNIK: But there's not-- I mean, you didn't invent that paradigm, right, that money equals power, and money equals some privilege in the relationship. And it is something that we have talked through, and I have worked on. And it has been very, very, very hard to switch that mindset. In the past, I would say, entitlement. Yes. Today, it's, I just feel like it kind of comes from a place of, I don't know how to keep up.
I am-- I'm nervous when there's dishes around. Because you don't want to do them.
Can I ask a question? I mean, like, it's not because I don't want to do them. I don't mind doing the dishes. I just-- I just don't have that much time that often, and-- I don't know.
ORNA GURALNIK: And maybe you don't feel like it's your job because you're more of the breadwinner?
Ding, ding, ding. If we're working, let me ask you this. If you and I are both working the same amount of hours, whose responsibility is it to clean the house and to make sure shit gets done?
Ideally, we should both split it. When does that happen?
ORNA GURALNIK: Well, can I just ask, I know it's not a PC question to ask, but, and does it matter how much money each person is bringing?
I think, in my gut, I feel like, yeah. It--
INDIA: He has somewhere, at some point, disconnected from almost all emotions, because it's not just angry emotions. I feel like when I'm trying to connect with him, being silly, or overly happy, or it's always too much. He never taps in.
DALE: It's not that I don't have emotions. I've cried plenty of times in front of India. I've-- But how many times have we cried together? It's the connectivity.
Interesting.
INDIA: You know? We haven't-- I don't think we've had anything really where it's like we needed to cry together over it. I mean-- Like-- The birth of a child. There are times that I'm trying to connect with you, and I feel like I'm-- the bar is missed.
OK, I get that.
- Emotionally.
- Yeah. But do you recognize something in that?
DALE: No, no.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think the industry that I'm in, when I started out in real estate, I would get-- sometimes, I would get so high off of maybe something happening, and then it turns out it doesn't happen. And then you have to pick yourself up and be able to work again. You know? So I've trained myself to kind of be just kind of even keel. And--
You've probably trained yourself to be even keeled about other things, too, emotionally. And maybe when you see a lot more going on in India, more feelings, some kind of alarm goes off in you.
Yeah. Definitely.
ORNA GURALNIK: What if you asked yourself, I seem to be alarmed. Am I jealous? Have I had to cut things off?
Yeah, for sure, it's not jealousy. I wouldn't be completely--
DALE: Yeah?
Convinced.
DALE: Well, I do admire the fact that she can act freely with her emotions.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yes. I think also for me, being a Black man, that's a little bit different.
ORNA GURALNIK: Right. I'm not allowed in society to just be mad. Hell, there are nights that I take Lincoln, our dog, out for a walk. And I'm not even allowed to be cold. If I put my hoodie on, and I'm walking next to someone, immediately, they'll stop and wait for me to pass. I'm just cold. Right. But I don't want to get too much into that. But--
You can get into that. I mean, why not? It matters. It's a luxury that I don't have. And regardless of-- But even with that, do you see what just happened?
Yeah.
INDIA: There are a lot of moments like this where I'm almost like, are we sharing the same Black experience?
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah. Because I know you are going through what Black men go through. But you don't tap into that. You don't talk about that. So--
Can I ask you, India, you said earlier, it's different to speak to someone who's other than to each other. Do you feel, as a person of color, a lot of discomfort to talk to me?
I feel like I have to dress it up a bit for you.
Dress it up so I will understand? Or dress it up so I will not--
Yeah, dress it up so you'll understand from our scope because there is still the layer of, I'm speaking to a white woman right now. I need to address it in a certain way. Yeah. But I want to face it head on. I want to talk to you, the white person, about it because this is how we move forward. This is how we get better. We just have to face the traumatic emotions head on.
ORNA GURALNIK: Right. Strong feelings like anger.
INDIA: Right. And I think the difference between the two of us is he does not want to acknowledge his emotions. He talks about it briefly, but--
No, I've shared with you-- I've shared with you the beginning stages of me starting a business, and what that was like being a Black man. I mean, I had people coming to my office that was set up in an office building asking me if I'm running a scam. I feel as though I can either let it get me upset and bog me down, or I can push through and make things happen. I choose to push through and make things happen. But there's some way that you deal with the emotional implications of whatever we're talking about differently.
DALE: Yeah. And I think India is suggesting that you do some kind of dissociation there, that you cut yourself off from that. I'm always torn between that because it's like, what am I supposed to do with that? You know? It's like, I'm here trying to just make a living for myself. What am I supposed to do with that?
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah. I'm sorry. Why are you sorry?
DALE: Well, the way I see it sometimes is that even the acknowledgment is so taxing. So I don't know. Sometimes, I choose just not to-- not to give validation to it, and just--
But I just want to understand. So when you say, when you allow yourself more contact with feelings, and you say, what am I supposed to do with this? what happens between the two of you? Is there somewhere for that to go between the two of you?
Well, I mean, well, I would ask the question, what is she supposed to do with it?
- Yeah. You know? It's-- obviously, I've shared with her, but I don't necessarily want to--
But do you get upset? In that moment?
No. No. It's just very matter of fact. No. Because first of all, that is, like, a great burden to carry on your own. And even if you dissociate from it, it's still there--
DALE: Yeah. Weighing on you.
DALE: Yeah. So there's plenty of things that happen when you share it with another person, and you feel understood. It has this kind of miraculous power to transform very difficult feelings to something that becomes useful. Yeah. And help the two of you deepen what you have together. Yeah. And it's exactly what I yearned for from her at times to be more vulnerable. Yeah.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah.
REX: It was a hidden relationship from her mother for, I think, six years. Why was it hidden?
JOEY: Because she's a Christian. I'm also Christian. It was a non-negotiable that my partner had to be a Christian. What was your affiliation?
REX: I was pretty much atheist. I didn't meet the prerequisites, right off the bat.
JOEY: I was living with my mom. I thought that once we got married, and we were living together, things would improve between my mom and my husband. And that did not happen. It actually progressively became worse. What was going on? Every day, I would be subjected to her saying something really negative. And at some point, she just stopped acknowledging us altogether.
Ah.
JOEY: She pretty much told me that she had thought he was like the devil. She told me she had seen, like a vision, and that she believed--
ORNA GURALNIK: Had seen a vision.
JOEY: Yeah, she had seen a vision that he was a black blob-- Headless. Representing a demon.
ORNA GURALNIK: What did he say?
- Headless. Headless. Oh, no, bodyless. And being dragged around.
Rex, what do you-- tell me your version of what's going on?
We just try to conclude that it was because Joey was just living with her mom for over 30 years. And I'm just a new man in the house, and she's just not comfortable with that. But I didn't really feel affected by her mom.
How do you do that?
REX: She doesn't really attack me at all. She really just goes behind me and yells at-- yells everything at Joey in Korean.
JOEY: I didn't know what to do, honestly. I had very complicated emotions of, could she be right? Maybe I am making the biggest mistake of my life. Or maybe I have to sever my relationship with my mom to protect my marriage. And that's kind of what we did. In December, we-- I actively looked for places for her, and I found an apartment for her. And now, it's been four months since we've been living apart. Not talking. Not talking since the end of January. So I haven't spoken to her. But I was so broken. Like, I'm so heartbroken that this is our situation, and that's when I knew, like, I'm not OK. Like, I'm still working through this. Like, four months is not enough time to detach all this codependency, deep rooted whatever I have with my mom. And I just don't want to accept that this is, like, my reality. But I don't know what else to do. And I also want to protect my marriage too, because I chose this. And I don't regret it.
Tell me more about what's going on between the two of you.
JOEY: Because she was so against him, when she said things that would make me wonder, like, why she doesn't like him, it's hard to not have some kind of doubt that crosses your mind, be like, maybe I'm not, maybe she's right. Maybe I'm making the wrong choice. So there was a lot of that fear in my marriage.
ORNA GURALNIK: Can I stop you for a second?
JOEY: Absolutely.
- How do you feel hearing that?
Again, unaffected.
ORNA GURALNIK: You feel unaffected--
Yes.
ORNA GURALNIK: By that?
Yes.
Any thoughts on that?
JOEY: I always want him to communicate and express more of his emotions. And so--
There's one thing that has to do with communication. But Rex, you're saying, you're unaffected. Joey's talking about how her mother inserts doubt into her. Right.
ORNA GURALNIK: And you're saying, you're not affected by that.
I'm just surprised. I always worry he's repressing things. And at the moment, he thinks he's unaffected. But later on, it's going to explode in some way. And--
- Does it?
I know that whenever we get into arguments, it's almost like we're breaking up. So then I'm just, I cave every single time. I cave.
ORNA GURALNIK: You cave, and what happens?
Like, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry. It's always your way. It has to be your way. My opinions don't matter.
MONDO: So we went to a bathhouse. And it was a very positive experience. We had a lot of fun. And I was not finished.
MONDO: So yeah. OK. I wanted more.
MONDO: So we had been there for a little over three hours at this point. That's a long time. And for me personally, how much sex can you really have in one night? You know? But we had a moment check in. And I was just like, OK, we've been here for three hours. We said we were going to dinner. Do you think it's time for us to go home? And he didn't quite say yes and no. He just kind of looked upset. And it put me back in that place of feeling like the adult calling the shots again. By that point, he had shut down. He wasn't even listening. And I'm just like, what the fuck, Kyle? Like, what's going on? Like, I could tell that it was killing the mood of what we had just experienced, which was the euphoria of-- in this space. Suddenly, that's out the window. And I'm like, really? You're going to shit on this right now? Like, we're here having a good time. Like, what's your problem? But then he was like, it wasn't enough. I didn't have enough. It wasn't enough. I wanted more. I could keep going. Just when I started having fun, you took this away from me because I haven't been able to have fun until tonight. And I'm like, what the hell have we been doing for the past three days? What's going on? And then it took a while, but eventually it came out of him where he starts expressing how the experience of being with our friends, and being together in the house, he was missing the Deaf component, the exchange of a Deaf person's dialogue, the sign language, that all of that was missing. And I'm just like, sitting here like, OK, I understand what your feelings are. They're completely valid. But why did it have to take us going to the bathhouse to be completely released to suddenly say that that was my fun, and now you can't take that away from me?
Can I stop you for a second? Because I'm just wondering if something similar is actually happening right now in the sense that you're talking and expressing what's going on, and you're silent.
I'm listening. Right. What?
ORNA GURALNIK: Part of what Mondo is talking about is you holding things in for a long time.
Yes.
ORNA GURALNIK: Are you doing the same thing now? Are you holding things in rather than speaking?
KYLE: I was waiting for my turn. And I just wanted to figure out how we could-- Yeah. You're saying a lot. So--
Yeah.
ORNA GURALNIK: Right. But waiting for your turn. I'm just wondering if that's part of what we're talking about.
I had a different agenda in my mind.
Oh, did you? Well, it was towards the end of our vacation. Because you and I had a beautiful conversation about the experience of the bathhouse. We had a beautiful conversation about the recognition of me being selfish that I had not had fun for so long. And then when we get to the bathhouse, I forgot how much fun I had. We got to go home to my hearing friends. Fuck, no. And I was caught in the moment where it's like, Kyle, come back to being dull. Come back to being responsible. Back the fuck off, because I'm having a good time. I'm in Mexico. I don't have to think about work. I don't have to think about your friends. And I don't have to worry about being at the dinner table not being able to follow what's going on. Right.
KYLE: When they tried to engage me, I got disconnected. Maybe I misunderstood, got overwhelmed trying to catch up. I gave up. I'm just going to people watch and not talk about anything. Damn, that feels good.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah, you had a lot to say while sitting here quietly.
I was just waiting for the point where it was my turn so I can finally say something about it. Yeah. So I'm developing a private theory that you're working so hard that you cannot pick up on the cues--
MONDO: OK.
That Kyle is sending you.
Yes, I can see-- I can see my personality fit that. That, I can totally see it.
ORNA GURALNIK: And Kyle, you're, like, not sending enough cues to Mondo, to your partner, to say, hey. I'm in distress.
Yes. I have had opportunities to give you a hint or a cue, I'm feeling this way right now, and what can I do? Why-- what prevented me? And this goes back to the common theme of if I were to say what I need, you would turn away and walk away. Right. You've said that to me. It's the same theme. Same theme. Just like my dad. Right. Yeah. I'm repeating the pattern.
A little bit.
KYLE: I'm sorry?
- A little bit.
So how are you two?
- Pretty good.
- Pretty good. I think we had a stressful morning. So just in-car fight. But we're OK.
In-car fight. Yeah, just small, but we're OK. Yeah. But I do think that we're bouncing back from things better.
KATHERINE: Yeah.
NICK: We had an argument, a pretty big argument, the other day. And I hadn't told her something about this thing, and she'd found out about it. And it was like a breach of trust. And she was really angry at me.
Do you want to talk about that, what happened?
Yeah. Do you think it's useful? Yeah, like, I mean--
NICK: Then let's just talk about it. Whatever. C'est la vie.
KATHERINE: I mean, I took in the mail the other day, and there was a tax return from FanDuel, which is an online sports gambling. And there was a large amount of money in the tax return as earnings. And I confronted him. I was like, what is this? Have you been gambling? And he said, yes. And you didn't tell me about this. So obviously, you knew that this was something you shouldn't be doing, because you would have told me. Meaning, it's risky for you. I mean, it's risky-- Risky because he's in recovery from gambling. And it's like, what's going on? Like, I was just really angry. And I felt-- I also felt like we've been doing all this work around trust, and like, we've been coming here. And like, and you still didn't tell me? Like, what is that about? And it's a few days before, our last session. Like, you've had plenty of opportunities to tell me you were doing this. And that I have to find out by opening a piece of mail that, like, if I hadn't seen that, he never would have told me, and I never would have known. And he was very apologetic, but then sort of was like, well, you're shopping addiction is the same thing.
It became that--
ORNA GURALNIK: Comparison.
Comparison thing that, like, I hate.
ORNA GURALNIK: Well, I mean, forget the comparisons. It never goes anywhere.
KATHERINE: No. But then, he shifted a little bit, and he was like, started talking about, I guess, the place where he comes from that makes him want to do it.
Yeah. Just to clarify all of that, because I think it needs to be clarified, like, in the past, with gambling, it was, like, addictive. Like, I need to be playing-- I need to win. And then it's all going to solve everything. And then I would do it, and I would go back. And this is literally spending, like, $30 on Sundays to win a million-dollar tournament with 400,000 people in it. And I happen to come in fifth place. And so it's sort of like an alcoholic saying, I can have one drink. I know you're not really supposed to, like, go there. But it is very much that. And so for me, it has been that sort of like, that would solve everything. You know?
Yeah. That, I understand that, the two of you will keep talking about it, and living with, and having your relationship with that. I'm-- for our purposes, I'm more interested in what-- how the conversation goes on this.
NICK: Right. Right. Right. I think I was surprised when we laid down the next night and talked about it. I was surprised at how she didn't say anything, and she just listened. The ability to give me the room to do that was like, I was super grateful for that. And I feel like that's what I need. I mean, in many ways, I feel relieved that Katherine found that, and that, like, we're just talking about it because, I don't know. I just think it's really healthy that, like, this stuff is out in the open, and like-- I mean, now we really don't have any secrets. Now it's-- I mean, there's nothing left. There's no-- there's no more. Is there? No. I'm just kidding.
ORNA GURALNIK: So how are you leaving? How has this whole experience been for you?
Really hard.
KATHERINE: Yeah, like, I mean, I think coming in, like, I knew that we just have been stuck in, like, these patterns. And I feel us, like, opening up out of those patterns. And I think we've become much closer. I mean, I think we're both kind of like, what now? Like, how do we continue? I mean, it's a lot of things for me. I feel like it's just the beginning and like, OK, let's get started in a lot of ways.
What did you say? What kind of therapy were you recommending for me?
ORNA GURALNIK: You need to get into psychoanalysis. That is like--
NICK: That's going to happen.
- For sure.
NICK: I'm very--
- You're getting a referral.
I'm curious and excited about that opportunity and--
ORNA GURALNIK: You're going to love it. It's going to be super interesting for you.
NICK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
NICK: I feel like the one thing that I'll walk away with is, like, being able to just be like, hey, I'm going through something hard. Can you give me a hug? Like, this is what's happening to me right now. And, like, just that simplicity of, like, finding the words for what we need.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah. But it seems to me like you're both very good at hearing when the other person speaks from that place. You have plenty of goodwill to offer each other, plenty of real love.
NICK: And, like, that's so simple.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah, but it's big. But it's big.
ORNA GURALNIK: Yeah. Yeah. So--
It's a very different way of living.
NICK: Yeah, it is.
[SERIOUS MUSIC]