#46 John Burton

Welcome back to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly podcast, from me, Tony Mell. This week's special guest is John Bon, the co-founder of Inside Connection CIC, transforming lives by supporting individuals with convictions to find sustainable employment. In this episode, John shares his journey, the challenges of creating real change within the criminal justice system, and the inspiring success stories of those who turn their lives around. Thanks for listening.

I'm watching this episode, we were turning over 3 million quids. We gets to bed half eight in the morning. All gets pinged up, and I get dragged out of bed, thrown in the back seat, head down, flew straight out of the house. So I'm thinking, what the hell's going on here? I don't think anyone's ready for Scousers to be...

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Honest. Welcome to The Good, the Bad, the Ugly podcast with me, Tony Mell. And this week's special guest is AKA Chu Bomb, John. John Bon. John was one of Liverpool's biggest career criminals, but now has totally transformed his life. Really looking for he sharing the good. B. John, we meet. All right, good. You okay? Yeah. Listen, thanks very much for coming on. I know you are extremely, extremely busy in what, what you do. You know, must be. It just took me six [ __ ] hours. Took you six hours to get here, but no, I know you're up and down the country doing really, really big things, helping, you know, people who were released from from jail and stuff, and, you know, getting them into work. And, you know, I said to someone the other day, like, you know, a lot of people who come out of jails, you know, you sort of get put on the scrap heap and not given a chance and stuff. And everyone does make mistakes, made plenty myself. But what you're doing, and now you've turned your life around and transformed something that was an idea while you were in jail, you know, it's fantastic. You know, and I'm, we're really honored to have you on.

I think it's all them nights sitting in a cell thinking about how can you get straight. Yeah, 'cause you know what? That life, the criminal life, is not for anybody. It was different years ago. You had phones were different. Now they're just human grassing machines, and that's what they are. Like, I was talking to coppers the other week. He said, we don't need grasses no more. We've got them in here, just talking about phones. You can see, like, all the enro stuff, what it's done to a lot of people. It's just took a lot of, took a lot of good lads away who've just been involved in a, in a bit of [ __ ] growing up. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's bunkers, innit? It's like you say, but all them nights that you, you know, that you saved in jail, and your mind's doing overtime. And I think that's what you've got a lot of time on your hands. And I think, to be honest, I would think if the, the authorities and stuff would to put me through every barrier or every sort of obstacle along the prison sentence, like coming from the Kate Uni, getting booted out of the Northwest prisons, getting moved down to Birmingham, and then down to the Isle of Sheppey. I think that, that's what took an effect on me, especially watching me kids and me family travel 19, 18, 19 hours on a round trip just to come and see you for an hour. I thought, [ __ ] this, might have had enough. Yeah.

So John, I just want to get into it from, you know, where you grew up, where you're from, family life, and school life was like. And grew up in Vauxhall Road, Vauxhall Gardens. Was born, uh, I think was six minutes to 12 midnight on New Year's Eve. I think my mum would have kept a leg show for about seven more minutes, I'd have been a [ __ ] year younger. So, and I think from there, it was, um, we were in Voxy till, I think it was October 1977. I remember moving from Voxy when I was a kid. Obviously, we lived in flats then, and then moving there to, um, a three-bedroom house right by Goodison Park. Was it in Kirkdale? It was, it was Walton. Our side, yeah. So our side of the road was Walton, the other side was Kirkdale. But I lived facing Stanley Park. So I was literally two minute walk to Anfield and two minute walk to Goodison. But my heart was always a Goodison. Even though my dads and my brothers were all Reds, I was, I was Blue through and through. Yeah. Yeah. I love Everton. And I don't dislike Liverpool because I don't watch Liverpool with me Dad and stuff, so it doesn't bother me in order me. But me, took me to the match and stuff to watch Liverpool when I was a kid. I'm sorry, I just couldn't put Everton. I mean, a Liverpool [ __ ] you just saying to Ben, our producer there, you just couldn't jump when you've gone to watch them and stuff. But it was one of those. My family were, some, most of my family were Reds. When I was, and they just, I just don't know what it was. I just, me Uncle Les and me Uncle John used to give me dead legs and that and say, "Come and support Liverpool," and all that. I'll be like, "No, [ __ ] off," and all that. And then for some reason, supported Everton, which I, you mind, then she put, put it in the head when I was a kid, right? Anything with red in it was danger. So she was saying, "Look, there's a road sign there, it's red, and it's got a red line through it, that's danger." And that's what sort of kept me stuck in your head. Yeah, it kept me sort of heading towards Everton all the time. Yeah. You know what? I'm glad I did because we were, we were good at the time. And, you know, for me, loyalty. Be loyal to all my life. I've gone. So someone said, "How can you describe Everton in like four words?" I went, "Love, joy, heartache, and pain." Because that's all I've gone through with the M. Life. I was talking to me Ar the other week. Remember getting to Wembley? I was only 13. And I bunked on a special. I get all the way down there thinking, you know what? I'll be in, get in the match. And we got beat one nil by United. '85 final was there. Yeah. And I think I was must have been about 14. Was it the '84, '85 season? Was it? And I goes down there and [ __ ] and I was all over the telly. Oh, when, oh, Ar fell was filming. You didn't know you'd gone down? No, 'cause I was only, I was only like 14, 13, 14. And, um, he just went ballistic. In the 80s as well, just jumping on the train. And the specials were great there. You used to get a special from Lime Street, and it just take you straight down to London, wouldn't it? But you'd just be, just madness all the way. I guarantee by the time you're getting into like London Euston and stuff, you'd always have like Chelsea, West Ham. You'd always have supporters just ready for the fight. Yeah. Fighting at that age, you know what I mean? We just wanted to go and get in the game. But, you know, I love Everton and I always will do. Yeah. Yeah.

So what was family life like? Brothers, sisters? Yeah, I've got two brothers. And, um, just, just normal lads. Yeah. Um, not like me. Never grew up like me. Our Steven and our Paul are just, they're just two decent lads who just crack on. They've never been involved in crime. Saying that, our kid asked Steven, I got him nicked when I got the siggies. I think he had, I think he got six weeks when he was away. He had six weeks with me in a cell. And I caught him having a [ __ ] at the end of the bed one morning. I went, "That's it, lad. You'll have to move. Go, go [ __ ] get in with someone else in the P. You're not staying here." But, you know what? Just normal lads. Him. They're not to grew up. Look, I knew at an early age I was going to jail, no matter what. You know what I mean? It was just where, when, and how. Yeah. And then obviously, it happens a few times to me then. But being a kid, like I say, growing up in Liverpool in the, in the 80s, you know, it was a lot going on. There was a lot going on as well in the 80s in Liverpool, wasn't there? But it was like, where, where we were probably. So we got to the 80s on County Road, Walton Road, you'd had like all like old shops and bondies and stuff like that. And that was, we used to just go in and smoking weed and stuff like that. You know, making dens in like 10, 11, 12. I think I had my first joint at New Year's Eve when I was 11. Yeah. And I think Rocky or something like that. Roy, Roy. Yeah. I think it was Rocky. Rolled out one of the old drug dealers on the estate. He used to roll it out. That's it. I think he used to get about 600 deals out with that P. Well, you know, it was just Rocky then. Yeah. Yeah. It was all, all Rocky. And I think the only green at that time might have been Sense Amelia. Yeah. Celia has all pips in, didn't it? [ __ ] you know what I mean? So that's how long you can go back. I still remember a Kia Senseia like that in a silver foil package. Yeah. I always remember Afghan Black coming, a kilo block in a silver, silver foil. Where you had your Rocky then was 49 bars. Where it used to call it a P, P of weed. Everyone used to put it in the microwave and burn the ass out of it. I used to put it in a bag in the boiling kettle and just let the water soften it up, going to cut it up, whatever.

So from what age, John, did you start like with all that was like around you and stuff like that? I think probably when I started smoking weed, probably about 11. Mmm. But obviously, we would in like, obviously where we lived there, it was about mans and cars. You always, always justed a man cars in mat. The match. Yeah. Yeah. And like robbing cars. It's not like I used to get in them and drive them. But if there was a case or something on the back seat of a car, mate, I'm sorry, it'd be gone. Yeah. And if, if you did mind someone's car and they only give you 10p, he guaranteed you'd be getting [ __ ] smashed a week after if he didn't give you the nicker. That's how it was. Like '80, I think pound coins come out about, was it about 1981, '82 or something like that? Pound coins come out, didn't he? 'Cause he were all pound notes before that, weren't he? H. Are you lucky to get a pound note off anyone, man? I still, I love it up there. It was great. Arate. So from there, Anfield and Goodison, you were manning cars. And yeah, you want money. You want to earn money. 'Cause like you say, in the 80s, your mum and dad both work, or they weren't really work. I mean, me dad had a job in Vauxhall's, but obviously working nights. Mmm. Mum couldn't handle them working nights. So we ended up finishing on that. But they just, you know what? We had, we had a good moment, Dad. But they were provided everything they wanted for us. But, you know, there's certain stuff that you grow up to that you want yourself, and you see the other lads and the older lads. Yeah. The only way you're going to get it is is just getting involved in in grafting. So career-wise, you show a knew from an early age what you? I knew from the age of 11 where, where I was heading. School and that, which you [ __ ] not interested. Not really. No. No. I used to go to school to see me mates, that's about it. I think I got kicked out of there that many times, it was just one of them. But [ __ ] at school. Yeah. What schools was you going? I went to, um, so I was in Holy Cross in H. Vauxhall. Um, funny enough, up by Butterfield actually lives there now, right by the school. So I was in there in an early infants. Then I moved to St. John's, that's in Kirkdale. And then from St. John's, in, I go to St. Bonaventure's, which ended up the year after turning into Archbishop Beck. So then I went up there and used to get a bus there every morning. [ __ ] hate at school. Yeah. It's horrible. You play football? Yeah, in school. I love football. A good team as well. Yeah. And, you know what? I used to love playing football. I think when, when you start smoking weed, I think, yeah, like I always say to people now, say, you know what? Your life will change when you get to a secondary school. Because if you want to be academic and you want to do all your work and stay away from people who want to be the [ __ ] of the school, who want to be boisterous, then you're going in the right direction. You go with people who want to be the [ __ ] of the school and you want to be one of the boys in there, you're going to go down the other road. And the, you mate, you, you, you saw follow the, the, what's name, don't you? You know what I mean? It's not a sheep [ __ ] what's name, but you saw follow the crowd. And it's one of them. It's easy to say, like, isn't it? You know, it's the your mates and you sort to get sucked in and you think, and but when you see the older lads who've got like, so they have BMWs like, like R, R, BMW 316s, you know, stuff like that. Like you look at them now and you think, [ __ ] know what? But in them days, they were the best cars. 2000. Do you remember the Alfa Escort with pointy front? 2000. So all them were sort of my era growing up. I think one of the first, like, got to 17, 18, I think XR3s will come out and stuff. I think I had a few of them. Escort gears are Ryan, remember all them? They were all the cars. I was down here then, probably in, yeah, down here for a few years. Yeah. Growing up in Liverpool and stuff. You were saying about on the estate before, when before we come on about, you know, the football teams coming to Anfield and Goodison and all that. So where we lived, it was at the beginning of Stanley Park. So every home game, no matter where you'd have the away support coming along, Priory Road or whatever was the back, but come Walton Lane. So if you come out to say, the Park End, that was the away support at the time. They'd come out and they'd walk right along past our our estate. But we'd all be there. So as you get towards the start of Stanley Park, he was our estate. Had a big hill, and like, you could, you could dig down. You have bottles, cans, everything, just ready to start throwing out. Then when everyone thinks cans, well, these cans were full with cans or Coke. And then as soon as the team, visiting supporters used to, yeah, would you? Because they'd be escorts with the horses and stuff. And then if they were, if they were like Millwall or Newcastle United, stuff like that, they'd be breaking out out the escort, mate, on the estate. But then if you go to the other side of the estate, at the back, Liverpool's away supports used to come down Everton Valley, and you'd had a field there. And guaranteed every, every game, there was a clash, their fights. Like, and that was from an early age, was it, John? Yeah, probably. I think we started fighting 13, 14, 15. Yeah. But our estate, you have to remember that everyone moved from different parts of the city and all moved onto this estate. And it was loads of people my age, little bit older, a little bit younger. But it was like, [ __ ] be. You couldn't walk, especially in '82, I'd say '81, '82, '83. Shack got old of our estate. Yeah. And a lot of me mates and a lot of people I was hanging around with, just was just on the gear. And just, I've seen what it's done to them in a few months. Gone from normal lads smoking weed to the brown. Yeah. They've gone on, they've got on the brown, and you've just seen, even girls, you've just seen them just change like that and go bags of bones. Next minute, this house is getting robbed. Just, it's such a fun that addiction. And like, even like people coming through to go to the match, you know, we, we take the bubble out and we take the, the tickets off them, you know? Yeah. You couldn't go to our estate without getting. Was it [ __ ] moodiest day? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [ __ ] it. You know, but you, you're saying with the heroin and stuff, John, you see what it's, I've seen what it's on like family-wise and stuff, and it just destroys. Like, it just gets a grip and horrible. You look at that, you know, you think, why would you take it? If it does, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like a new drug, innit? Like, you didn't have cocaine in them days, easy, or whatever. Cocaine went in, um, in, in Liverpool, in, in the early 80s, like '83, '84, '85. And ecstasy, I'd say, only come out in '87, '88. Mmm. And obviously, that's probably the quad, quad here at about '88, '88, '89, was it? When tablets started coming out? Well, I'm going to get on to the quad in a bit later on about it, because it's a funny story. I want to, want to speak to you about. But, you know what? Like, obviously with being on the estate and all that, would you going home and away watching Everton stuff? Or yeah, used to travel everywhere. Was it like traveling? Do you know what? It was great. You'd get, so obviously, I remember going to United a few times. And, um, I remember being in escorts when we're going from a, sometimes we had to go from Piccadilly, the buses were off. We had to walk. F. Walk. Well, it was just like, it was just madness. But in them days, it was just pure hooligan everywhere. Everyone wanted a fight, no matter where you went. You had crowds of people who just wanted a fight. And if you were in an escort, or they were in an escort, you guaranteed there bottles going to kick off. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. That's what it was all about, wasn't it? Yeah. In the '80s. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the County Road Cutters, they were a little bit sort of older than us, you know what I mean? So did you look up to them? Yeah. So obviously they were all, they were all king of this to streets fighting, weren't they? Yeah. Like, I tell you now, Everton and Liverpool had a really good, they had a really good F. [ __ ] else.

But what was it like obviously going abroad? Did you go abroad? Because yeah, I went abroad a few times. I went with Liverpool and Everton. Away a lot with Liverpool, to be honest. I, Wy, been the Millennium Stadium. I've done abroad with Liverpool. I've done, I've done loads of stuff with them. Because I think after '86, anyway, we, we just didn't. Was it '86? Was it the Hill Stadium? Was it '85? '85. Yeah. So obviously that banned us. Like we won the Cup Winners' Cup that year, and then that banned us from going in the year after. And I think it was like four or five years before we all stepped back in into, um, into Europe. Europe. And that. What was like when you grafted and that over there? The shops and that? [ __ ] I don't think they were ready for Scousers. I don't think, I don't think anyone's ready for Scousers, to be honest. And I think over there, like if you go to like Germany, or you go into like Amsterdam, or into Holland, stuff like that. Dy Penning, he was, he was, he was playing. He'd always used to be probably 50, 60 of us. And we'd all meet up over there. And then we'd just go sort to graft and jewelry shops and, and tracky shops. Now, if you remember at the end, he was always like, Aussie, Lacoste, Fila, Tony. Everyone was wearing them. Well, everyone weren't wearing them then. And then you [ __ ] but then we were all over there. And I used to go, like, I used to go with one of my mates into the sports shops. And I'd be putting like mediums, you know, on. Just one, just one rail. Your side. Yeah. Be putting all my sizes on. And remember sort of saying, "Look, I've got a shop round here. Let's go round grafting." And we've gone round and grafted. And I've gone straight to this rack, took the full, about 10 or 10 or 12 tracksuits. And just got on me toes. But everyone was like, "How the [ __ ] did they all fit you?" He said, "We've all got extra larges and triple XLs and smalls, mediums." I [ __ ] went in the shop beforehand. I use me head. I went and put all, put all the trackies on a on a hanger. But all medium and that with fit. And they were all like, V trackies, dead like nice material. Just so like, if you go to Quads in them days, you used to have like an A. Everyone's looking at your club and all that. Yeah. So obviously going abroad, they weren't equipped for us going, going, going abroad. Yeah. Yeah. When Scousers go abroad, the rest is history. Yeah. Like he said, he was [ __ ] I know a few lads used to, I call us, I used to call us the M cats. See us, see us like that, about 20 going, L the graphs on that [ __ ] go be bang, straight into there. And that. That's was like, how old was you when you were doing all that, John? Probably about 20, in me 20s, early 20s. Yeah. Just after we the bands had over. Yeah. [ __ ] hell. Mmm. And it was just, it was just a free for all, was it? Yeah. [ __ ] chaos. And obviously going, don't forget Amsterdam, like Holland and stuff like that, Belgium, Brussels. You smoke weed. Going to smoke weed. So you used to go and get stones and then go right to tracky shops. Remember everyone in Liverpool and them tastes, all that trackies, the most trackies, and all, and all that, all that club, and all that. Like, but, but, you know, from from going there, a lot of friendships made and stuff with that. Like lads who were from all over Liverpool or, you know, whatever. From, I met a few people who were abroad as well. Yeah. Yeah. I used to go on coffee shops and stuff. And I used to get to know, like, a few of the Moroccans and stuff like that. So, yeah, you knew if you were on to weed, then they the people to get that. You could go to. And obviously in later, like later in life, if you needed to. I remember, I remember going the Grasshopper and the Bulldogs years and years and years ago. And you walking in, going, "What, what the [ __ ]?" But it's just weird everywhere. But it was more hash then. Yeah. And little bits of green. It's not like, like today's stuff. Today's stuff, it's, it's, it's ruthless. And it, [ __ ] I think when you wear, when you figured it out, I always say this, like, you see these young, young kids now smoking it. And if they're smoking three or four 20 bags a day, that's a [ __ ] habit. Mmm. At the end of, when you wake her out, what, what to spend the money on? And I, they don't realize what to spend in each month. I'm spending a grand. So obviously work with kids and stuff, man. Yeah. Yeah. I've ended up having a few kids a few years ago. And, um, I've done drug tests for them all. And four kids off the same as they tested positive for, uh, Edn Opioid. So I knew they weren't taking smack. Taking. But that's, yeah. But what we, what we determined? So brought them in. I went, "Look," I said, "40 years." I went, "He all live on the same." I'm not. You have all tested positive for everyone. And what was, what was their reactions like? [ __ ] themselves. Yeah. Yeah. What you mean? We said, "We don't such smack." I said, "No, but something, something just doesn't work out. It's happening. What are you taking?" So I said, um, "Bring me a bit of weed in." Brought me a bit of green in the next day. I tested a bit of it. Smacking it in. In the, yeah. Yeah. So, but what happens with like, if you put, if you put Arin into a key, a key of green and you seal it up and you shake it, because contam, it doesn't, it sticks to the THC. Right? Because if you get green when it's pretty, like, not, not dry, dry. But if you get green that's damp, then you, you can touch that, your hands are sticky. So you can imagine them shaking a loads of gear in it. And then all that does to you, instead of buying like two 20 pound bags a week, you'll go buying five, six, seven bags a week. Yeah. Being a drug dealer, you have to maximize your profits. But there's means and ways of doing it. And some people just don't give a [ __ ]. Now obviously, yeah, you know what I mean? And then it's like, when Coke face come in, like we were bashing it with benzan and stuff. You know, at the end of the day, a lot of people didn't know what we were doing then. Yeah. But I think the likes of the Charlie, I'd say more towards the late 80s, early, early 90s, that started coming in, in, in bulk. I remember like '85, '86, '87, it was more city drugs in London because no one could really afford 100 pound. All, all the big wigs and all that. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I remember down there years ago, where all the city people used to walk around with like a box with one of the phone that had a chain cord to it, is it? And they were all city boys who were sort of, yeah, SN, SN, and Charlie. Yeah. That's been it, probably. And then it just went mad, didn't it? You know what I mean? Pumped into me mate, um, last year. I went, "Where the [ __ ] have you been?" He went, "So," he said, "I've been, got nicked." I said, "What for?" He said, "I should have been fraud." I went, "Why?" He said, "I got nicked with Charlie." So they [ __ ] come back at 2%. What you should have got [ __ ] done for fraud? What? That's what's happening now. People are just, the [ __ ] life out of it. Like, it's crackers, isn't it? It's absolutely bonkers.

But, you know, I want to touch on as well, before we got onto, you know, obviously the drugs and, you know, the criminality and stuff. The keys to go to some park, mate. That is [ __ ] unbelievable. That was in, I think that was it was either 1983, '84, or '84, '85. I can't remember which one. I was only about 13, 14. And again, the Park End was a away support. Yeah. Have you remember you had a little, little piece where you stood, then you had the big blue walls in, and you'd have the upper stands. So me, playing footy on the goal at the Park End. Yeah. We used to get in all the time. And we, we just, live our by it. So we knew how to get in there all the time. So we get in there. And I was, I remember playing footy on there one night. And the, never forget the old guy. He was an old fella. Away. Remember them all, beige Macs and a flat cap. I'll never forget them because I can still picture them now. As, as you get out, you little [ __ ] going, [ __ ] off, [ __ ] alun. And then as you're running out, you know where the Park End used to be a big door. Yeah. So there used to be a little door in it, didn't he? Did he let you out as well? Yeah, well, the, the door was open where he was chasing us out. But he'd left the keys in. And I've looked at the keys and looked at him. And you know when you see someone in slow motion, go, "No." I've gone. Yeah. And I've took, I've took a bunch of keys. And I always remember, remember them plastic whistles, like the silver one. Yeah. Yeah. I always remember them on it. And I didn't want to rob Everton. I loved Everton. I didn't want to. I had the keys to the alarms. I had the keys to the whole [ __ ] ground. And I didn't want to rob them because I led you your football team. But we used when we used to have to get in, we'd either bunk in, or we'd go in the doors when they open for three-quarter time. And that's when you get into what's the last 10 or 15 minutes. G. Gates. So yeah. And then it goes back the next night. And I think he was about six or seven doors in the Gladder Street because that's where everyone went at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And I've gone there trying all the keys. And then I found the key that opens it. So I had the master key that opened the six doors. But if you've gone in this door, you'd have to go upstairs, go that way, and go back down to get to the next door. You just, you couldn't get in all the doors at once. So my nickname was Vid. So there's a story to that. I'm not going into it. But there's, every, every game, there'd be, "Where's Vid? Where's Vid?" I'd have all four, five, 600 people going in the match every week. I'll just be opening. What you charging them? But I had a bobble hat. So there was fivers going in it. There was pound coins going in it. He was pound out. I think was still out as well. And you probably have three, four, five, 600 quid. Was 14, 13, 14. From that early age, John, it was just sorted in your head where you know you were [ __ ] like a little bit of an unsuper way. You just want money. And I'll be honest with you, it was all about getting club. It was all about trackies, trainers, and stuff like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like Marathon, Tra, La, trainer, you know, stuff like that. They were the trainers. Like Wade Smith. Remember Wade Smith in town? I remember Wade Smith where it used to be by the bar. So you walk down Bold Street, it used to be a little shop. Yeah. Just off of there. And I remember it was just trainers. And I remember like Adidas Munich and stuff. Now, we'd seen them in Germany when we were over there with the footy and stuff. And then they were all over. Then Wade, Wade Smith moved to the bottom by Matthew Street, on the corner. So open the big shop. Yeah. Remember it. But that was a great shop. Wade Smith. It changed a lot in Liverpool. Wade Smith. Yeah. Yeah. I remember. Does thing, you know, like Jocky Brennan, Doo. Yeah. Jo. So Joy. I grew up with Jocky. He's from [ __ ] boss Jocky. He's a proper, proper good lad. And he's, listen, he's been through a bit of a tough time. Joy. And Joy was obviously involved, involved in the gear and stuff years ago. A lot, a lot of our people were. But there was a lot of people that just [ __ ] ruined lives. And they come the other side. Me, I take me hat off to him. It's good to. Yeah. He's brilliant, mate. A lovely, lovely guy. Him and his partner, two proper good people. And it's great to see the [ __ ] brand grow so big. You know, where was I? I was in, I was in bloody Thailand or somewhere, not long ago, last year or something. Did into see some walk past with a [ __ ] sent out. And I've just looked and I just giggled to myself and I thought, you know what? Fair play. I love, I love people like him who have done something good in their life and the progression to be successful. You know what I mean? Because we grew up with [ __ ] all of us, you know what I mean? And lots of it. You know, and that's the thing now, John. It's like, people, people, you got to do certain things in life to, you know, all right, I know sometimes, you know, you've got to do what you've got to do to put food on the table and stuff like that. And I, and I get that. And but there's other situations where people do get involved. And, you know, like your story, what we're going to get well into in a minute, is, you know, you see the money side of it. You wanted this. And obviously, you know, you're not going to school and stuff. And the way what you knew was by going and doing what you're doing by grafting and earning money. Proud of some of the stuff. I mean, I never robbed doors, but I robbed businesses and stuff like that. But it was such a feed of weed up. I thought everyone had. Yeah. We used to sell weed. He makes little [ __ ]. Yeah. You know, I remember like, like obviously I was dark-skinned as a kid. You know, I used to get called a lot of [ __ ] names when I was a kid. And didn't like it. But I was hanging around with so is funny when I was hanging around with people who were calling people racial names, sitting there smoking weed, listening to Bob Marley with a [ __ ] John Barnes top on. And I'm like, I, I, I just don't understand. Yeah. But these are different, aren't they? Go, "No, they're not [ __ ] different." But I got it till I was about 13 or something. And then obviously tables have changed. Yeah. You started, you know, looking after yourself. Well, you could handle yourself and whatever. The thing is, never got called. And I think that's what I was happy about. But the key, I've still got the key. Yeah. I've still got the key. I just said that to him before. I'm sure he still got the key. You know, one, you know, way you can buy like your, your little blocks now for the new ground. I've got John Bon. I had the key on it. That's priceless. Because the tiles that anyone who knows will just giggle when they see it. People are looking and goes, "What do you mean?" I had the key. I had the [ __ ] keys to Goodison. So they'll know the story of it. Yeah. Yeah. But God, there used to be sons, loads of people waiting by the church for us. You make a few quid each game, John? Yeah. Yeah. I think about the second to last game of the season. And I'm opening the [ __ ] door. And there's a busy standing there. And I'm going, [ __ ] shut the door. Locked him in. Now, I knew he couldn't get to the other doors quick enough because he's got to go up the stairs and come down. Yeah. So I've gone and opened all the doors. Then, 'cause I knew they were going to change the locks. And I went back. And about two nights later, and they changed all the locks. I was [ __ ] furious. But you had a good run on it though. Yeah. Yeah. What was the a funny story of the season ticket mate? Oh, that was a. Do you know where the Everton shop is now? Yeah. So where the Everton shop is, there used to be like an old, old building there. But it was a, it was a nightclub. And it was a printers. And something, little shop underneath the something. And I think, probably July, it was the year after the, um, I had the key. Yeah. And we, I've got in there. There's a few of us in there. We're just robbing, just to try and get about 20 quid or something. Throw by some weed. Weed. Yeah. And we're in there. And I think there was, there was a few hangers on in there. And me and Sui, mates, and Jared, and John. And I've looked there's the three bin bags, you know, just on the floor. And I've just looked like that. And the season ticket books. But then I've looked and I've gone, [ __ ] remember season tickets. So they were only little books, the paper to them out, you give them in. Folded them up. I went to the, "Come on, let's get off." So I've got Ar there. And I've said to me mate, "Come on, we're going back." And he went, "What?" Went, "Just come and have a look what our grafter in here." And we ended up with 400 season tickets for Everton. 400 season tickets for Liverpool. How did you spend them? 40 quid each. All of them. Yeah. And then I think he was probably three quarters of the way through the season. It was Miami and Liverpool. 'Cause he was loads of duplicate tickets. 20. Yeah. So they started. So I think towards the end, people were getting nicked with them. But he thought he could. They had to go [ __ ]. But yeah, but there used to be F printers used to be outside Goodison. And he had another one on Blessington Road, which was right by the, um, the Liverpool one. We went up and [ __ ] robbed that. But he was not being in the. You'd have thought you're going to get double up. Yeah. He thought if he had one shop, yet he had another shop there where you just try and capitalize on and double up, wouldn't they? [ __ ] you. One of the best grafts I've ever done. Council houses. Growing up as kids, what color your toilet seat? They were all black. Every one of them were black. And I get moved from Liverpool right to Skem. So all my, me nan and me family and all that lived in Skem. And I got moved up there. Must have been about 15, 16. And '84, '85, '86. Everyone's toilet seats were black. So I'm, I'm grafting over in Gilly Brands where there's like, um, units and and warehouses and stuff like that. And I've cottoned onto this shed. It was about 40 containers. And that was, they, no, this was a shed about 40, 50 foot long with a fence and a gap about that big at the top. But I see all like plastic. Don't know what the [ __ ] that had to look and pull them up. They were all toilet seats. But they was white, blue, green, pink. And I thought, you know what? S. I'll just grab a few of them for me nan and me auntie and that. [ __ ] hell, mate. It got to that. I was getting about 40 of them a night and getting a fiver each for them. Was you? Yeah. Yeah. And I used to have three lads who would doing the market. They couldn't get enough of them. Sell them, sell. Everyone had black, black toilet seats unless in council houses. Unless you had like, if you remember you going to someone's house and that have like a peach bath, a peach toilet, and a peach sink. Or a green bath, green toilet, and you knew they, they had their own houses and stuff. Like the council houses, all that. We're selling out to them on the market foring on it. Yeah. But I used to go over a wheelbarrow and just get like 20, 25. And then go back at another 25. And then scam. There's no traffic lights. So everything roundabouts and subways. So I was just grafting them for ages. Was he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [ __ ] great. And then I met Andrew Shak. Andrew's great. Do you know what? He's probably just on getting out. Andrew. He's just, think he's just finishing about a 35. Andrew. Yeah. Boy. Proper [ __ ] god lad. Andrew. So did you and we become friends and stuff? Just because we moved. I moved to Skem. Yeah. I think Skem was quiet until me. I got there and met Andre. And next minute, yet he was. We, we was sort of shooting guns up at the Beacon. And we robbing cars, Bing Granada, a 4x4, Scorpios, all these cars. Robbing them. And just Bing them out on the Beacon and stuff. He just on a [ __ ] path to like the, what name. John. Just, I was just hard work as a kid. Yeah. You know, I was a good lad, but I was a little [ __ ]. You just to mischief and stuff. And then it leads to. And that's what we're going to get into. I had it. I had it as a kid growing up. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't. From an early age, what you told, you know, my mum and dads didn't know sort of help me and stuff. But just that police that all the time. Yeah. I was, what you call the black sheep with the family. And I think I was going to say that before when you were saying about your two brothers and that, like, you know what I mean? And it's like, you know what? You're the black sheep. But it's, it's one of them, John. It's sort of like, you know, to where you're at now. And what we're going to get. I always believe your life's planned out for you. Yeah. If I wouldn't have been in jail all that time, or being doing what I would do, and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. And I get total satisfaction out of what I do. I love what I do. Yeah. I love watching people's lives change. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because you're not only for the best, obviously, you know, but you're not only changing their lives, you're changing their families and the kids' lives. Because look, if we go to jail and we've got a beard and kids, we're the breadwinners. You know, especially in them days. You know, for me, it was, you know, I was all right. I, I was earning a lot of money. So I had money put away. And I made sure everyone was all right. But if you go to jail and your family, they've got [ __ ] all. You're basically in jail with heat, food, showers, your bed's got [ __ ] all. And they're struggling to [ __ ]. You know what I mean?

But, you know, the start of it all, John, you know, like, like the, you know, the organized, say, the organized crime, like the, you know, the drug dealer, the big scale. When did that [ __ ] start, mate? Um, I think it was quad on par was the was the start of it, really. Don't get me wrong, I was selling weed before that. Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously trips. I think at that time, you had purple art and micro dots. Yeah. And then just after that, you started getting blot and paper ones with like strawberries, MBS, window panes. You'd have all different types of trips, wouldn't you? And I think it was like, I'd go to, you go like 18, something like that. You'd be going into like Images and stuff like that in town. And at 20 to 2, they'd go, let you know, they'd slow the music down. You go, "Nee, a [ __ ] ugly beard on the dance floor." Whoever it was left, wouldn't it? But then when you go into the Quadrant Park, it was, I'd gone in and I'd gone, [ __ ] hell. But, you know, Quadrant Park was in boot. People who don't know. Yeah. Quadrant Park was probably, probably the first rave venue, probably that I'd known about. And I'd gone in there and I didn't know what a [ __ ] I was walking into. It was like, just like a crazy [ __ ] rave with people with whistles, glow sticks, tops off. It was just mental. And, and on it. And people trying to rob you. And you're a Scouser going, "[ __ ] off." You. But as many, I always remember, I had the brown disco biscuit. Yeah. That was the first tablet I had. You have a full one, or I just had our face because you were still a bit wary what it was. I remember having half. And then I remember being half an.

It's been an hour, and then I don't know what happens after that, but I just had the best night of my life, hugging people, saying...

And then for the first few years there, it was, it was great until, like, people started going in and having people off and robbing people. And everything about ecstasy was all about the love scene when it was dancing. And once you had that pill down, you, you just didn't give a [ __ ]. Yeah, you would just, you know, whether you thought you were an AR case of lunatic or what you were, ask on the middle of the dance floor, [ __ ] bar it with someone's glow stick, [ __ ] bouncing around like a lunatic. Yeah.

And it was like, I think it was the week after that I wanted to go back. And I, you couldn't really go and say to Mar, "Is 50 quid?" You know, you're talking like 1980, 80. And it was like, "What do we do?" So we went and got a couple of, I think it was about 150 tablets. The first one, we've done them within an hour. What would you sell them for? Like, "20 quid each." 20 quid? Yeah, 20 quid each. I was getting at that time, I got them for 12 quid. Later on, yeah, but you'd still, you'd still make come up with a grand. But you'd have your weekend, your money had all be rolled up and running in a little bag under your bed until you come around on the Monday. But then you, you didn't expect to be ining what was there. And then when you done your count up and you're thinking, "Paying whoever you've got them," yeah, you paid them back. But then you, you're looking at it and you're thinking, "[ __ ] hell." And there's do there. Yeah.

Then the week later, it was 500. He sold them within two hours. Had a couple of lads who were on the door there, looked after me. And then obviously started doing them in different clubs with different people in town. That's it. It sorted. So, so the quad was where it started. Yeah. I'd say so. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was like the quads. And I always remember going over. So you remember the Drone? Yeah. I used to go the Drone. So I bought the Drone. Yeah. So I brought the Drone. Later on, I'll, I'll come to that story in the in a bit. But we ended up buying the drum. And I, I'd gone to the drum in 80, sorry, 902, 993. I met a bear from RoR there. Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up, I'd say it was air and air m that probably saved me from either being dead or being in jail at an early age. Yeah. And I ended up moving down here for a couple of years. And I think that was, I think that was the turning point in my life. And I always respect and thank them for it. Yeah. There ran be. And I remember going, had like tricks, Carl Cox and Co. I think we, I think we went our first time to the Drone, 95. We went, we were only, I was only about 15. I think me and while she threed all, all lads and stuff. And I remember Tommy Spar, who's no longer yet. Tommy, mate. Yeah. Tommy Spar. Tommy Spar, lovely kid. Jay Farson, all, all of them. Because we used to look up to them and we'd go, "Yeah, we're going to go." And I remember going, 95, and it was [ __ ]. It was you like bought it. And I think me and me partners bought her in 99. Yeah. And we wanted to turn it into the lap dancing club. But at that time, I was doing the siggies. I tell you about that. Yeah. Yeah. And we were earning that much money on the siggies, know what the [ __ ] to do with it. You're buying silly cars, watches, houses, just going [ __ ] mentally. But we ended up buying the Drone. And we wanted to turn it into the lap dancing club. But the council were having none of it. Yeah. And he said, "Would you be interested in this club over here?" So over from the Drone, there was a club called Atmosphere, Hamilton Square. It was a base. So where, so you ever remember where Blakes Ford is? So you, as you come out the boned tunnel, you'd have to go past Blakes Ford. And there was a building there, right? And that was Atmosphere. But that was off for, I think we only paid, I think we paid 10 grand for the Drone. And, um, I think the Atmosphere club was up for 375. And the council was saying, you know, "Would you be interested?" Well, it's, it's triple what we paid for it. They wanted to knock the Drone down. Yeah. Now, they said to us, "Look, we'll do a straight swap with just for the Drone." And I said, "But what about the lap dancing license?" I said, "Because that's partly what we're trying to do is just create a gentleman's club and have a lap dancing bar." Okay. We looked at it. Said, "No." Then we said, "No, we're not selling it. Then we'll just leave it to rot." And then they come back and said, "Look, we'll give you a license for 12 months." And obviously, they give us the lap dancing license. Where, but they wouldn't let the Beards take the knickers off, you know what I mean? It was strictly like, you'd had to be 12 inches away. We had the council there all the time, measuring people. A [ __ ] nightmare, honest to God. Nightmare. And then you have people coming in and going, "I'm just going to pay the 270 to Liverpool and see a fanny for a five." You have to deal with, you know what I mean? But it was just, it was [ __ ] mental in there. It was [ __ ] mental in there, on the God.

And is that because obviously, like he had that much money? John, was that we spent, we spent a fortune on it. Wasn't just me because I had a few partners who were bus, you know what I mean? So, you know, we did put a lot of money into it. But I bet you now, it was probably the biggest and the best lap dancing club in, in all of the UK at the time. I think the nearest one to it. And if you go back to 99, 2000, I don't think there was many lap dancing clubs anyway. It was 2002. Spam, Min, Rhinos, and stuff were open. But we were, we were open before it. Yeah. I remember on Taggage, Friday, Saturday nights, you have 30, 35 beds on in there and it was full. Ch, ch. Yeah. I think it was the biggest one. So it was about five or 600 capacity, really. And it was like, at the start, it was like when something's like a gimmick to start with, everyone wants to be in there, everyone wants a piece of it. Yeah. So like, obviously for the first like, three, four, five months, it was just [ __ ] mob. Friday and Saturday nights. Was it? Yeah. And then obviously, because obviously the situation where the girls not been able to take the runs away down and stuff like that, it just caused a bit of, just caused a bit of thing in the end. And in the end, we just, we had the, we ended up shutting the Lanson Club after a year. And we used to always say, "[ __ ] chaos in here." So we ended up opening a nightclub called Chaos. And then we just had [ __ ] mental waves in there. Yeah. Yeah.

So from that, John, was it like, from what you were ining money-wise, was it just going into property and everything? And yeah, because I think, but also we put a lot of money back into buying our own siggies. Because like everyone thinks now, like I've done podcasts where you go, "3 million quid a week." Oh, we were turning over 3 million quid a week. You're turning over between four, four and 500 grand a day, five days a week. But it was all cash, you know. So you were earning it, your money, you know what I mean? People, I have people like Mafia people, I was, I was working with. They need paying. Cost over pay. Customs officers need paying. Your lads need paying. Slaughters need paying. Cover needs paying. And you'd be lucky if you come out with 60, 70, 80 grand a day. But when you're [ __ ] in your 20s, it's a [ __ ] lot of money. It is. I was going to say, it's a lot of change. So I was looking after all the lads. And then I was putting money away because I wanted to get it to where I started putting with putting with them abroad. So whatever come over, we would have gotten. I think for this, and I said on our podcast, he was a Scottish fellow that was involved in us. He was robbing them. Yeah. And, um, he was robbing them but set everyone up. So he ended up being like Asian provocateur. He was a [ __ ] grass. [ __ ] wrong. Yeah. Was a grass. But he's, um, he's put me on to. And I've said to him, he's robbed. He's taking skimming off every, every load that's coming. I've got, "You can't [ __ ] do that." Yeah. He's taking his [ __ ] them, the [ __ ] this, that, the other. I went, "No, you can't do it." So what he done one day, he followed me up and said, "Look, I can't get to the airport. I'm stuck somewhere. Can you going to pick these two people up for me?" So I've gone and picked them up. Unbeknown to me, that was the start of my observations. Ups. Yeah. Yeah. So they come over and I'd had them in a hotel for a day and a half. He didn't turn up. So they wanted money. Ends up giving them 50 grand out of the money we had put away for them. And, um, they s of off the pop home. And then they F me up about a week later and went, "Say, we want you to come over here." And I went, "What for?" "Want to speak to you." I spoke to me mate, one of me best mates. He went, "N, you can't go. Is that sketchy?" Is it? One of them? Would you like that? He, I said, "Look," I said, "You got two ways here." I said, "You got to look at it this way. Look, there's two ways. I'm either going to go and get killed, or I'm going to get on and do the graph myself." Going to cut the middleman out, sort of thing. I knew. But I didn't like what he was doing to them. Because I ended up staying with them for like a day and a half. But they were [ __ ] really nice people, you know what I mean? Got with them, got on with them. And they were two people you would, you just [ __ ] wouldn't play with. You know, they were [ __ ] really high up where they were. And the, the two of them, you know, they were from the Far East. But they were [ __ ] naughty [ __ ] people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, even though one of them was probably 5 foot, he's probably one of the naughtiest [ __ ] you would ever meet. But a lovely guy. And I'd only known him really for a, for a day and a half. I had him in the Royal Albert Hotel by, um, in Manchester. And took them in, stayed with them, fed them, stayed, done everything with them, showed them about or whatever. Yeah. Put them on a flight back, back. And then they'd pH me up and said, "Will you come over?" I spoke to me mate, Robbie. You know, Robbie. And H, Robbie said, "N, he said, "You can't go." I said, "But it's, I'm going to get killed, or it's a chance of a lifetime. It's going to change a lot of things." He went, "Look, B." He went, "You can't go, mate." And I went, "Look, and going." And he ends up [ __ ] off over on my own. And I've got, got over there. And I've, as I've come out, had a codw for the name, like he'd had a board up. And he was this big mush, about six foot odd. And he's picked me up. And we've gone in at M limo. And he's driving through the city. And like, in that city, you know, when you stop by lights, the kids start washing. Yeah. The wind time, just slap one of them. And just, I went, "Well, come on." A, he's gone, "Sh." And I've gone, "[ __ ]." So I've thought, "Something's [ __ ] happening." I had a no at 8310. That was on a contract. And I said to Robbie, "You went, look, when I get to the destination where I am, I'm going to phone you. I'm going to leave the phone on for a minute or two. So if anything does happen to me, you've got a destination of where my [ __ ] body is, basically." [ __ ] hell, John. That must be scar. But you know what it was? It was one of them. And did they think, did they think they were going to do it to me? No. Or wouldn't have gone. Did you just have a [ __ ] like, one of them feelings in your stomach where you go, "This, this going to change"? That's the way I thought of it. Was do or I. And he was going, "You're not going." Went, "I [ __ ] off." Went. And then I got up. We'd gone. As we'd gone up to where he lives, like obviously had arm guards outside, like a [ __ ] big silly mansion. Yeah. And we've gone in there. And I'm still like edgy. Phone's on, but not talking, if you get me. Just so I've got a signal to where I am. And then he's come over. He's with his bed. He's hug me and stuff. And I felt sound and I was all right and comfortable and all. Yeah. But then I always remember, like, I remember like he had a hum black hum with n on it. You Ferraris, Porsches, like you wouldn't believe what this [ __ ]. There was about 16 cars in another house outside. And he was say, "Take anyone you want." But they were just brilliant, lovely people. And, um, and you built up that. You know, I didn't, I didn't know, um, I didn't know until who he, who he was until we gone to a restaurant. Now we gone. We, I with X5s have not long been out there. An X5 in front, an X5 behind, and us in the, in a m limousine getting s. We goes right through. He goes into this, to this restaurant. And lovely Posh Restaurant. But as soon as we went into there, everyone just stopped. And everyone stood up. And I've gone, "Wow." And I've looked at his, his wife. His wife was Leela. She could talk English. Where he really couldn't speak much England, other than he used to call me son. And I call him Papa. That's. And he used to sort of translate through his son or translate through, through his, his wife. And they just stopped. Everyone stopped. They all stood up. Is that when you [ __ ]? So I'm, I'm only my 20s. And I'm, so I said to Laya, I went, "Who the [ __ ], who the [ __ ] is he?" And she's just gone, "She, I'll tell you later." So they've brought us to this main table. And soon as we've sat down, the whole of the [ __ ] restaurant sat down. But then next minute, he was foot national football team in there. And they were all coming over, giving them envelopes and all that. I walking now. Now, bearing in mind, I'd seen these people on television, watching them in like the World Cups and stuff like that. And they're all sort of coming over. And I didn't know this guy was. And believe me, he was only 5 foot. He was only small. And you wouldn't think nothing of it. But he was [ __ ] very, very powerful man. Was he? Yeah. Yeah. And then with that, and all that, go back to the to the house and stuff like that. Gets to bed, half eight in the morning. Dog gets ped up. I get dragged out of bed. All me bags thrown in the back of an X5. Me turning the back seat, head down. And [ __ ] flew straight out of the house. So I'm thinking, "What the [ __ ] going on here?" So we ended up taking me to the back to the city. And they put, they took me to the whole big massive hotel. And the manager come over. He went, "John." I went, "There." He said, "Look, you're in the presidential suite. Anything you want to pay for, and I mean anything, you can have." So three days I was there on my own. And I'm thinking, "I don't know what the [ __ ] going on here." That must have been scary. Getting [ __ ] zagged out of bed. And just, cuz I never seen them. I didn't, what was happening. Then three days later, they turned up. And basically, that's when they said, "Look, we want you to take over the operation. We know, we know he's robbing us. And we know he's not right." They were answer him. Yeah. Yeah. They were answer him. He said, "Look, he said, "We've got to sort of get him out of the way." I said, "Look, don't be, don't be doing nothing stupid." I went, "Because that's going to come back on me. Just let them [ __ ] off out the way. And just let us crack on." And we, we started cracking on. And I think our face container. I got home on the, so on the way out the hotel, I got me flight. Took me in the CTI shop. And he went, "Right, pick." I went, "I'm all right." So he bought into a big of buying me bed at um KTI watch men's and women's. And give me 10 grand to go home with. And the K watches. What they sent you back? I think the S they were Santoses, his and a Santos. And probably about eight grand something like that at the time. Maybe a little bit more or less as well. Forget I a them a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. Like we, we sat down with him and his business partner. And basically, I said, "Look," I went, "I've got to get something out of this long-term." I said, "It's not sort about, I'll do this, this, and this and earn this money." I went, "I need to be a long-term." I said, "So what I want to do is get these done for you. And I said, "With the money we earn off that, I want to put it back in. And I want to jump on on on the [ __ ]." I said, "So whatever comes over, I said, "I'll split it. I'll make sure everything's right." And he used to love the way our money was always bang on. It was always headed up. And it was always wrapped in in different, um, last bands. So every time they got money, they knew it was bang on. And they knew it was no, no. I always made sure. And they were always sort of, the only problem we ever had with money was Jo money. Want money for every million pounds in Jo money, we had to pay in to get sent over. They charges 30 grands on it. Yeah. Because it was hard work to get rid. Monopoly money in it. That's what people say. But I always like Jo money because they had 100 pound notes. They have like 100 pound notes where we only had the 50s at the time. And then obviously later on in Europe, when the Euros come out, you had like 500 pound notes. A million quid was nothing. But then a million quid and 50 quid was just [ __ ] bags full of money. That it was like, um, I used to do all the money for them. And then I gone back over to them. And then it's a range. We paid all the money, got everything in for them. And then we arranged for 20, uh, 26, 25 wagons. So they all adds 30 to 32,000 sleeves in 40 foot containers. Are yeah. Yeah. And then we add the 40 foot container is full with 990,000 sleeves. The [ __ ] brim. John. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, you know what, we'll get what we can out of it. It's [ __ ] major millions. Do you know what I mean? So I thought, were you looking to like, take a loss if anything gets gets? I knew I was taking a loss anyway. I still had money put away. Yeah. Yeah. People, you know, they were going to come through. But the people like, you know, on the, um, they, we had everything paid that you weren't losing any. Yeah. Right. They were coming in. And a lot of people at that time were doing, uh, Brandy, whiskey, vodka. So they doing car on on the containers. All we were doing was the siggies. And like, you Benson and Edges and Mal. I'd send them down south because you couldn't send them up north. And then you add your Super King Blue, Super King Black, Embassy Number One, Regal King Size. Then you started getting like Sovereigns and stuff like that. And it was all Duty Frees. So they were proper siggies. They weren't fake. The way. Yeah. And everything was just coming in perfect. So I put, put a lot of money back into it to get money back out. And then we'd arranged it, done it, and got home. The first five that come in, I think one was a legit one for up north. And the rest were all for down south. Yeah. So I sent all that money over to them. And then I got nicked. I got nicked with, um, 16 wagons. There was 16 wagons in Europe, four wagons in the UK, and four, um, four containers on 24 [ __ ]. So worked out about 1.2 million sleeves. So you know the sleeves are like 200s. So it worked out about, I think it was about 1.2 million sleeves. They had it down as. But in, in that money, it was probably worth about 50 mil in today's money. You're probably talking 140 mil. Me. Yeah. So you think about it, if you were selling like, but you spinning the duty. Like, I mean, depends anything from 16 to 20 quid. Depends on what the product were. Now, and how many do were taking. But don't forget, we, I just have two customers that used to buy. Like, I'd have Scotland, I'd have Newcastle, Manchester, Birmingham, London. So. And you'd have your sort of cities around the country where two people are come up and buy, buy that container. Do you know what I mean? He might have 10,000 sleeves. He might have 20,000 sleeves. Do you know what I mean? So like, we'd sort of just sell them to two people. And then we'd have like, beards with BR tops and hot pants on counting the money. And they were AR, you know what I mean? We caught, we caught a few of them AR half day. Yeah. Because you have to do it. Because if someone come down and dropped 150 grand cash, you [ __ ]. But I, in like the first one that come in, right, me and Robbie were up there. And Robbie didn't really know too much about it what was going on. Said, "Look, I've got a container of siges. I've got to turn it round. I've got 24 hours to do it. Let's see if we can do it." I [ __ ] blitz it like that. But then I think that was about 380 grand. Yeah. Had to [ __ ] counter by handing it in a hotel. John, [ __ ] great. It's lovely count money. But then your heads after so much, your heads going, you're like, [ __ ]. And then 6 hours later, you've got it all counted and stuff. So the next day, I just went, "Money count machine." Yeah. But you have, but to get money counting machines, you needed ID. Oh, right. You had to go in buying jewel scales. You needed ID. So you had to sort of get a few people on the take. No comebacks in that. There's no comebacks on yourself. And you know what we were turning, we were turning over. And like, one of them say, "It's, I'd say there's 150 grand." Every time there was 600 quid or 800 quid down. I said, "All right, sound." I used the phone. He said, "John, [ __ ] 100% was there." I, "All right, sound." So what we do is, I'd meet them in a different place. I count the money with them. I'd put it back in the bag so it looked like it hadn't been counted. And I'd go and drop it off to one of the. That's how you [ __ ] call like. Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously, when, when she done the count, I went, "What is it? 640 quid down?" I went, "Okay. Where is he?" She went, "Well, that's all that's come." I went, "It wasn't." Said, "We just counted it around the corner." I said, "So you got two minutes to get it out." See other. And so it's mad. It would good to say, you know, people are what they do realize is when you've just obviously had to get a and get it to Fu, you've got to then move your stash in case she [ __ ] tells. But if she tells anyone or speaks to any of your fellas or stuff like that, then they know where everything is, you know what I mean? So it was a case of having to. Soon as you like them, you [ __ ] got to move stuff. Yeah. Loose lips s ships. But the cities [ __ ] hammering it. But we going to. How long did that run for? How did that? Well, it didn't run for that long, to be honest. Because so unb, unbeknown to me, you were under OBS. You said I'd gone under robs. But then the, the two come over again. And, um, so we all ends up. So after probably when all that thing, we got nicked. And the two people who was working abroadway ended up getting them in in a wagon and getting them out the country. So I took the jail for them, basically. And to this day, I've never ever been in touch with them. But I know, I ever got touch with them and know for instant, they do that and look after me. And I met, I met some guy at, um, he said, "Where they from then?" I met some guy in prison in, um, 2012. And he come up to me as a foreign guy. And he went, "I've got a message for you." "What you mean, you got a message for me?" Now, bearing in mind, I got out in 2005 for the siggies. They took my nightclub, they took my shops, they took my houses. They took everything, basically. I had. But I was [ __ ] angry about it. Was that like 14 million? Was it confiscation? So what happened is, when, um, when you got nicked with the siggies, like it was a white collar crime. Now, we would, we were making tablets and stuff before that. And then when leab bet died, the jail, the jail time and the tablets started going high and high. So we started getting back into weed and stuff like that. And then obviously the siggies later on. And when I got nicked, it was all in court. Now, bearing in mind, I got nicked the 14th of December 2000. I got sentenced on the 14th of March, I think it was, 2003. So it took me three and a half years. You demanded? No, it took them two, three and a half years to send to me. Bearing in mind, it went the police that come for yet was customs and excise. So I was sitting in David Lloyd and K. And I just had a container delivered around to the units around the corner on on the St. So I was on. I had, I had me normal contract phone. And I had me, so we had like a silver Noy that used to T like it rounds ear and it up. Yeah. And I just been on it. Then I've seen these fellas walking over to me like that. I've thought nothing over them. Be their mind, I was pretty big at the time. And as the thing, the grabbed me phones. When customs and excise, I've just been on the phone to, to me graft. Yeah. And I'm thinking, "You can't [ __ ] have that phone." So as, as he's gone, "John, it's not thing you have stood up, [ __ ] off." But grab the phones. And then I've run through David Lloyd, whack the back door, smash them off the back. I just needed the chip. Just swallowed the chip. So I got the chip. I swallowed it. And launched the phone. And give them contract phone. So they didn't really have much. But all the evidence they had, you know what the police or the Customs are like, until they've got enough evidence, they're not going to come for you. And then they were com and near me. I was going to start twatting them. And they were going, "Look, I was going, [ __ ] off." So next minute, loads of bues come. And the buy said to me, went, "I, he went, "You're okay, mate." He went, "These are [ __ ] ganger." Because they didn't like each other. And the buy said, "Look," he said, "You said, "Yeah, mate, I'll come with you." Said, "I'm not going there." These country like that. So the bus didn't even uncuff me. They just, um, walk me to the car. Me. Yeah. They didn't need to [ __ ] put, you know. Yeah. And I think where did it go? I can't remember where I went to. Long, long more lane or copy lane. I can't remember. Was copy lane. And, um, obviously that's where all the evidence come out in it. So 2003, I remember this. So I hadn't, I hadn't be in mind. I didn't know this fell was grassing. Kept him with us. Yeah. Kept him out of the way. Yeah. And, um, in court, he kept saying there was imminent Asian guy. The Asian guy was [ __ ] St. Lovely, lovely fell from. But this factu Jo kept saying, "I can't do jail. I can't do jail. I can't do jail." Now, there was 157 calls from them to the freight company. In back, there was two calls from me. Because I was using internal phones out of the way. Yeah. And he was. So next minute, it kept drumming in me head. And I've gone to me mes, "We plead guilty." Because we were all [ __ ] we were on it. We were NE B right like him. And the Asian guy plead are not guilty. But all the way through, all he kept saying was, "I can't do jail. I'm not going to jail. I'm not do in jail." And I'd had a really bad funny feeling. And David Phillips was me, um, solicitor at the time. And I said to David, went, "Go put a pii on him." It's like a public inquiry where they have to tell you if he's a grass, if he's an informed, and whatever. Yeah. So he's, um, he's, they've released them without charge. So the next day, we've gone to court and gone, "Where is he?" Said, "Oh, they've released them throughout charge. There's no, um, there's no charges against them. There's no charges against them." There's [ __ ] 157 CS [ __ ] F company and B them. I went, "Where's, where's not that?" So I've, so I've said to me, I said, "How do I find out what he's being involved in?" He said, "We can go in and ask for any cigarette cases he's being involved in." So we come back at being involved in seven. I think as was Operation Gret. And and he'd been involved in seven other [ __ ] cases. But also, there was two people I had Metro like George from Bolivia. [ __ ] lovely old guy. George. And I mean, one of the nicest guys you. He done the same to him. Sent him to the airport because he had a bag of money to drop off. And he got nicked exactly the same way. So it was a pattern with him. Yeah. He's Fu. So it's like agent provocateur where the Customs would let him graft in his money as long as he put all them in along the way. Threw them to the woles. Yeah. So we got us all next. Yeah. And then goes to court for me proceeds a crime. And did hit me with a 14 million P. Yeah. Yeah. So I've said to the judge, and I'm, I'm playing crafty here. I've said to the judge, "Man, how, how have I evade a duty?" He said, "Well, what it is, Mr. Burton, he said, "When you cross English Waters and come into the country, he said, "There's a tax evasion." I said, "Yet, I can understand that." I said, "But what I can't understand is 16 of them consignments were still in Europe." I said, "So if they haven't passed English Waters, fuing, I haven't." He went, "Oh, yeah, Mr. Bon, good point." He said to Simon Christie, I think is, he was, he, "Can you take them off as a proceed to Crime, please?" He was [ __ ] Fu as the prosecutor. Because the judge, we got it down to like a million pound. And, um, I think like, obviously they overestimated the earnings on the clubs, on the shops, and on houses and stuff like that. They just go, "Joh." Yeah. I have to sell them anyway. But the problem was, is they sold them off cheaper. So say, for instance, they said my share in the club was we 200 grand. They sold it off for 60 grand or 70 grand to my partners. But then they still at me with the 140. Would that not come off the bill though, John? So 60 come off the bill. So I've gone, "I haven't got a minute." So I've gone back to court. And I've gone, "I said, but they, they valued the assets, not me." I said, "They've overvalued the assets, but yet they've sold them a lot cheaper." I went, "So I, how, how does that leave me?" So we ended up paying everything. And then they s me off, um, took ow me assets, everything, and watches, everything. You, you sort of made it s. And I always remember, it was like, there was a 400 grand deficit of it. And I said, "But that 400 grand equates to what they sold cheap." So he said, "All right, we'll get rid of that." He said, "We'll put it on a benefit figure." So at that time, it was confiscation order, Pock way out. So they hit me with the PO confiscation order. Paid all that. And then he had the benefit figure on top of that. But from 14 million went down to like a million. And then 600 grand. [ __ ] hell, John. But it's like Pock now, you, you're [ __ ]. You know, I've been, I've been out of jail now seven years. I got my Pock 10, 12 years ago. And what is a pocket? Proceeds to CRI. Right. So obviously, everything what, what they do to you, is they'll still you with a pocket. So they'll say, "We believe like a kilo of cocaine." They estimate it at 50 a gram or 1 pound a gram. Yeah. So 1,000 grams is at this. And this is what they say you, you ENT. When legally, if you buying, if you're not getting Coke from the source, or you're getting it dropped into England, you're lucky if you're making a grand or two grand on it. But then they WR you for a pocket that's like, "We believe this." But actually, you can't. Because I went doing it like that, you just sound in bul. Whatever. Then I went to jail in, um, 03. And obviously I'd gone into jail. It was all over the papers of how much it being nicked with. So I've gone in like, everyone's [ __ ] hell, have you done that? What was you doing? Blah, blah, blah. And then I've started meeting other people in jail who have been into big graft and stuff. And when I got out, I just thought, "You know what, you can all [ __ ] off the authorities." I still had a few could put away. I was all right while I was away. And when I got out, and then started getting into into drugs, then yeah. So the first, like that sentence in 2003, how long did you do with there? So we got four years. It was only white color crime. So I got four years. And because I'd been on bail for just on three and a half years, and had been in trouble, they knocked six months off for me. So the judge said, "Look," he said, "Mr. B," and he said, "You know, you've come here to court all the time. I know it's gone on for the hell of a long time." He went, "I'm going to give you four years." He said, "But I'm going to knock you six months off of your good behavior." He said, "That means you're eligible for a tag." So done 17 months in in the [ __ ] jug. Way you know, for that. It was, it was a good touch. Yeah. You know what I mean? So. And and I think like white collar crime then, you, you'd be lucky if you got fours and sixers. Where now you're looking at 10, 15. Because it's just about that. It's the money. It's that. Look, you look at it now, a kilo of cocaine is we more in jail than a 2-year-old sexually abused raped kids. And that's to me, just, it doesn't, it just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry. But for me, it just doesn't make sense. And that's what this. It's like the pro proceeds of crime. You're [ __ ]. You know, John, I, I say this, and, and, you know, people who want to buy drugs or whatever, or they ask for it. Yeah. Like, you just, this on the head there about [ __ ] kids or whatever, you know, abused. They don't ask the [ __ ]. And they get the [ __ ] sentencing again, mate. I don't, I don't get me headlander at all. I, I don't. It's, it's just, it's just madness, honestly. It's, it's crazy.

So from there, when you came out and that, John, did you just obviously you'd been in? I was angry. Was you angry? Yeah. I was angry that I had. I had the way I seen it is, I built a load of businesses up to make money and get myself out of the game. You [ __ ] never get yourself out of the game. You get out of the game and you get nicked. You know what I mean? And it's very rare that anyone graphs and wins. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the only way they are going to win is if they've got a [ __ ] big mouth or they're very, very lucky. You know what I mean? And that's the only way in this, in a drug world. If you're growing, the bigger you grow in a drug world, the bigger your fall is. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? So get to that day and the [ __ ] falls a bit. Yeah. But it's like, you know, you could be T, you could be having smashing the ass out of it like in the drug, the drug game. Like if you sent a ton of weeds on, you're flying. But then if that son of weir drops on the way, you're [ __ ] [ __ ]. You're back to [ __ ] square one. So whatever, how big you go, if you're not using your own money, then you're using other people's money. And I want their [ __ ] money as well, John. That's what it's about. Yeah.

So when obviously you was come out and you were angry and stuff like that, and you were back at it then because obviously you want to [ __ ] claw back what you've lost and everything. When did it all start like, you know, [ __ ] this? You know, was it straight away when you came out? Or? Yeah, as soon as I got out. I probably was on license for the little bit anyway. But I was, I was [ __ ] everywhere anyway. I didn't care. And then I started getting in back into the grafts into the Spain and stuff like that. Yeah. And then I think we, we were doing pretty well. And then we had four on four losses on the run. Yeah. You know what I mean? But big sh, big big ship. Yeah. Yeah. But like, we put on to stuff with people. And we were trying to get ourselves back to normal. Started earning the money. And then things started going down. So when they go down, then I'm looking thinking, "[ __ ] I other the fortune I've got [ __ ] all left. And they owe money out now. And you're like, how the [ __ ]?" Yeah. Um, obviously you get all the paperwork to say obviously where the containers are being Tu and being tucked down and stuff like that. Not if you can go and [ __ ] us with them. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then got a few graphs back home to get us back to a bit of normality. And then I think we had, um, me and me mate had, I think was two ton of weed come over. And me mate at the time, he'd been arrested in December, um, 2010 for a maer. And what's happened is, he's, they've raided his, his property. And I was in Spain at the time. And I said, "Look, I'll send someone in and sweep it. I said, "Don't talk in that [ __ ] that [ __ ] house." MH. I said, "Because I, I knew what was going on with the ma, you know what I mean? I knew what happened and stuff. But I knew they planted bugs in him. And he found two bugs in his, in his his flat. And C like what? But what he didn't have, he had us one of these brand new Tellies. And they had him through Wi-Fi on his Telly. So they were watching them through a Telly, you know what I mean? Yeah. They watch. And this was in 2011. They were watching them through a Telly. And what they did on that, when the weeds come into the country, he's found someone and went, "Get that, get that them bits to my Scouts P." So when they've come up to those other squads on me. MH. Now, where I used to put my, where I used to put my stash was hard away from anyone. So I'd have them drop a van off where I could sit and watch it. And I was watching the van where if I look back at the whole day, I knew the busies were there. If you get me. Because I should have took more notice. But because everything was more of a rush, it was just now would be fine. I moved the van, took it around to the stash, started emptying it. One of me, one of someone turns up who starts to touch in boxes and stuff with no gloves on. It ends up being a family member. I'm not going to go because you know what it is, what it is. I got nicked. And basically, I followed his route. He had, he'd gone to drop a Kia weeds off somewhere. And followed his route. Couldn't find him for 45 minutes. Went behind the police station. It was there. So only I got back to the stash with a little Bingo full of [ __ ] painting gear in me mates. I've ended up throwing loads of weeds. And some of them. And got the main stuff out. There's only 240 K weed left in there. So I thought, you know what, I had a bad feeling. Got it away. Yeah. And then I'd gone around, said to me mate, "You know what, park at the bot. I'll run over the cricket fields and have a have a little MCH." And when I looked over, he was pla sitting outside. So I knew he'd blown me up anyway. [ __ ] blew you. Yeah. But I was only, I only got n with two 240 K weed. It didn't warrant what I got, you know what I mean? And then I gets nicked. So he gets nicked. They come for me. Couldn't charge me. Put me in jail. The jail. Yeah. Yeah. So I went for me JC because they had [ __ ] all whatsoever on me. And didn't have me anywhere near near what was going on. So they let me out. I think I was out for about 10 days. And then they come and got me then again. And then that's when he [ __ ] that's when they kept me in. Yeah. Yeah. And then every else come with it. Yeah. Well, then seen the depths and seeing everything that. But when, what happens is, when I got nicked, then I was in, I was in the cells. And I've come out, um, to the desk on the sergeant. And I've seen loads of like my family's names on the board in the cells in that. You mean? Well, I

Didn't know they were in the cells because it was on the board. What, what are all them names you told? They're on themselves. There, I went, you can [ __ ] off, mate. They've got nothing to do with it, like. No, they didn't have nothing to do with it. And I said, look, I said, get you, get you me brief up. And I said, um, I sat down with the plots and me brief and I went, look, went through the evidence. I went, look, I went, I'll admit to all them now. Said, I've got [ __ ] all to do with them. Said, let them out. [ __ ] Allen, do you know what I mean? So ended up doing a dealing there with them over the charges and I got him, man, and he let all them out.

And I think I was in, um, I was in Walton then and me, me coed escaped out of her prison van. And then basically from there, they cut a me and suck me, um, because they thought the same was going to. Yeah, what they done is they put me in the Block in Walton. And, um, I've gone into the block after have stripes on. So it was like a banana suit, blue and yellow suit, like a [ __ ] like [ __ ] all over the walls. It was, it was January 2012. It was [ __ ] freezing. There's no lights in there. A night light and wind-up radio. And like the Home Office was supposed to make a decision in 72 hours about keeping me. Now, bearing in mind, it was a Friday when he took me down. So weekends coming. The weekend was [ __ ] anyway. Then they didn't make a decision all week. They were on an hour and on the week after. And I think it was about 17 days it was in the block. Now, bearing in mind, I couldn't speak to me family. I couldn't speak to me sister. I couldn't come out of the cell. And until the jail was closed, I had to have me food brought in. Where you pissing and [ __ ] that so in the toilet that was in the shower. I couldn't get a shower till like 7:00 of the night. And then at 7:00 of the night, when the jail's shut, they used to walk me down the little 10-foot cage, you know, just to get a little bit of at the end of the exercise end of the Block in in Walton. You've got like a cage in there where you can just have a little walk. And that's what I was like. But I was [ __ ] M me me had not gone, but it was [ __ ] yeah. Now be the man had scabs up here and up here off W in the radio up all the time. I was reading Martina Cole books of a day. They were [ __ ] with me at anyway. The stuff that's in them [ __ ] mental. And then over the night time, I was sitting there listening to [ __ ] P Price, driving myself [ __ ] nuts. But it was the probably the worst. Like I tell you this way, no. But you know what, when they come and cat a me, they took me to, um, they blue lighted me from Walton. I didn't even collect 200 for pass and goal me. They just took me straight to [ __ ] Manchester. Strange ways. Yeah, but it was like when I got in the cells in there, it was like it was like walking into the [ __ ] Hilton. Tell in there, lovely and warm beds where you'd [ __ ] been. Yeah. And then I had scabs all up me [ __ ] arms. And I was [ __ ] it. Look like I had [ __ ] scabs or something. I bet you stunk of [ __ ] down there. There was people doing like dir protests and stuff down there. It was [ __ ] minging. That's what I'm saying. And you're in that environment. And listen, I know you, you, you know, you've done a crime and stuff. But that's fu. That's it. It took me three days in in in the in the when I got to the CATE unit. They, they said, look, you're not going on the proper unit for seven days. You're getting me monitored. I reckon it took me three days to get me [ __ ] together in that in that cell because I was that like [ __ ] up, confused. And I don't, I was just, you [ __ ] just [ __ ] messed up because you didn't know where you come and all going. Speak to me. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So it was like four weeks nearly now before I spoke to my kids or anything. And then obviously the scrip is in there, right? I busted this day off them. You know what I mean? But they were saying like monitoring me before they go in. They said, look, John, it's, it's, it's not the same on here. He went to 17 people on there. He went, one of them's going to stab you in the neck. You know, you got drugs. They're not going to give a [ __ ] about you. And it's all about, they're all [ __ ] mental in there doing 20, 30, 40 years. So they were putting mental stuff in your head. So I'm in me, I'm [ __ ] press ups like that [ __ ] getting in the middle, getting angry cuz of to I'm going to walk in near me. I'm just going to [ __ ] hit them and then just deal with it later on. You know what I mean? But, but the screw saying that to [ __ ] your head up or worked out me m all on the [ __ ] unit W it. So I've gone in there like a [ __ ] mad man. It was only five days. They monitored me and said, look, we're happy for you to go on now. We went, you ready? Went, yeah. Give me 20 minutes and about 400 [ __ ] press ups. Get myself big again. And then I've just gone in there. And when people say you going in with a cat SK, you're like, that's just [ __ ] looking. You just clocking everyone. Yeah. And then no, then no bad. I've looked up me mate and I went, you [ __ ] pricks. The screws are laughing. These are laughing. But it would happen on it would happen on the Kate unit. Seriously. People just didn't give a [ __ ] on there whatsoever. And you're dealing with like, you know, there's people on there. I got on with [ __ ] great. You know what I mean? Some stories on there was [ __ ] me. But for you, John, mentally, for anybody who, you know, you go into jail and any, you know, any who goes, who's locked up, that is must have a psychological. Like I remember Farqi, Faruki was doing life sentences. But then you go in his PN areas with a [ __ ] AK and in Pakistan with a [ __ ] AK. Well, no one's doing [ __ ] n life sentences for them. He was sound. There was an Israeli guy on there. Um, me mate ended up really good mate with a guy from London, George [ __ ]. Lovely [ __ ] fell. And couple of brothers on there. Few lads who have been doing robberies and stuff. You know, all the Manchester lads. Yeah. Yeah. And there was a good cre of lads on there. Always remember. There was a big kid on there about 24 stone. Bully, you know, one of them. Yeah. Used to just pray on people. Like, soon as I've walked on that thing, he's G. Are you Buren? I've G. Yet. Have you got any drugs, mate? I just buy any drugs off you now. Any [ __ ] drugs you've got. I went, I haven't got drugs, mate. I don't touch them. I thought, you know what, stay away from him. He ended up getting boiled him. Yeah. I was a sh. But you [ __ ] you see any of that. Thought he was a kid on there. Yeah. Young kid. Lovely [ __ ] kid. But he had enough. This kid was just a [ __ ] bully. He was a Man United supporter from Leeds. And the only reason he supported Man United because of had Sharpie. Yeah. And Shar Sharpie his name was. He was a [ __ ] mental case. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, I've seen him with a M bucket. Bo. So the M bucket, like, yeah, you know, the back of a Jack, the Jack of a radio. So if you take that out, turn your plug off, you put so outside, you had little bits of metal, you know, on to you in. Yeah. Break them off. Put piece that way, you piece in that way. Put it in the water and switch it on. So you got yourself an element. So it boils the water. So you're getting water and you m b it from the hot water. But then it's not bany bany hot. But this is fing boiling. So you leave that on boiling. Put sugar, loads of sugar in and chocolate. And it makes it like a syrup. And I'm on the phone. And he's, he's come down. Go, yeah, do you want to get off the phone now while I do this? Gun like that. And I'm just giggling. Oh [ __ ] me. He just poured the [ __ ] whole over, right over him. And then as he's done that, he couldn't get. And the lads have just come whacking him with snooker Bo. It was [ __ ] mental on there. It was just, it was [ __ ] mental. And then the Iranian guy. Few days later, me and Georgia sitting there. And we're just having a giggle. Making so playing Po. And this Iranian guy's come out. But he has a beard in there, right? Would he come out dressed as a mummy? So what he done is wrapped himself around with toilet paper. I didn't know whether he was doing. They wouldn't give him [ __ ] all in there. Visit ten it. And I said to George, what this country you dude? So me and George were stoned. Yeah. You know what I mean? We'd have a bit of Polly. And we both having a little giggle. And I've looked and I go, what the [ __ ] this Con here like that? He's come out. He's going, you know, like that. But he mustn't have realized how, how quick toilet paper lights. So he's [ __ ] lit it up there. But Tony is just gone wof. I've just fell off me chair laughing. George is just [ __ ] in B. He's running around the wing, bouncing. Cuz he didn't realize much the toilet paper. I mean, turn a [ __ ] bit of boiling water up and thingy. He ends up getting a recommendation and getting out 10 for Bing them with boiling water to put them out off. Yeah. It's [ __ ] mental on there. But mental when I say is probably the best part of the jailer done. Because no one's talking about getting out. No one's talking about getting to the cat caty. Cat had you been sentenced then or no? I hadn't got sentenced. And then I goes, I goes for sentence. And bearing in mind, like I had seen me kids them for probably 5 months. Where like my kids for me was like, it was just, it was just seeing them was was good. It took them four months to get Veta to come in. What you mean Veta, John? So the police had to go out [ __ ] kids. Yeah. But the police have to go out. They have to. So they check me beds. I was a bit of beds at the time. And they checked their shoes. Checked everything in the house. Like made sure it was a. And then I remember my first visit. She come in. And I'm sitting here. She's sitting there. And there's a screw here and a screw there. I'm, I'm, I'm in stripes. So I've still got a blue. You visit. You got two screws sitting with. So this is my first visit. I've waited four months for it. And I've gone, baby, I can't touch. And G, baby, you're okay. And he's wrote, baby, you're okay. She said something. He's wrote that. And I've said, what the [ __ ] he is doing? He's wrote, what the [ __ ] he is doing? So everything I was saying, basically record. Yeah. I just said, you know, after about 20 minutes, I went, look, I said, I can't [ __ ] do this. And she's in te's [ __ ] SC. She seen you for [ __ ] long. Yeah. And then, do you know, she going, I don't know. I don't know whether I can do this anymore. I don't know whether I can do this anymore. And I didn't have kids to. I, you know what I thought? I want to get [ __ ] every sentence anyway. So I just, um, I think the second time she come in, she come in the kids. But where the CATE a unit is in in Strangeways, is it in the middle of the jail? So your normal visitors go into the outside of the jail and up to the visitor. Where our visitors have to walk through the jail. They have to walk through the jail with screws with four stations around them. So my daughter was only young. My lad's, my lad was three years older than I. I've got three people in beas behind them. The [ __ ] dogs going mental. My daughter was, she was absolute mess when she got in there. Only that like then the screws didn't have to sit down and write. And I just seen the kids and I just s give them. And then the Gaya was with, like she was [ __ ] distraught. And I thought she lived in a normal house with a normal family. And I thought, I'm [ __ ] can't put it through this. And I F when I, when I got to the back of the cell, I just pH. I went, look, went love, you. I went, but I need to do this for you. Went, look, I'm taking your number off the pin. I'm never going to see it again. Went, I love you. I always respect. But take care. Put the phone down. Never spoke to whatever again. I did when I got out. Yeah. Thought, did you understand when you got out, John? She was [ __ ] furious. Her face furious. But I knew I was getting a heavy sentence. And I thought, I'm not having someone waiting through all. And then all the chatter comes about, oh, you B, your B's doing this, your B's do. I've seen a lot of people [ __ ] lose the plot in jail over the beds because someone's [ __ ] said some [ __ ] or something. But even like jail paranoia. Have seen like a lot of people using phones. And you better [ __ ] get home. Yeah. Out with you [ __ ] mat. And I've seen it all the time. And I've seen people just literally destroy them [ __ ] selves over beds while they're in prison. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because look at the end of the day, your bed's not being nicked. You've been nicked. It doesn't mean she has to [ __ ] stay in and not go out and stuff like that. But then it's, it's all jail paranoia. Just plays with CU you [ __ ] got. You can't do nothing. Thing I ever done, Tony, to be honest, one to let a go. And two, it just stopped me from having hassle. And your that being [ __ ] up as well. And then obviously I gets, I goes to court and I gets 14 years. But because of try hands and ear in the police station, I got a 33% discount. So what was? So they took it down to nine and a half years. But a big sentence that. But I get back to, I get back to the cat un. And the screws call you in. Now you can't speak to a screw. You've got to stand a meter away from them. Like the officers there. There's a tape piece of tape there. You're not allowed to pass that. They talking. They me, look, John, you never got 10 years or more, mate. Went, it looks like we're not going to keep you on here. I was [ __ ] buzzing. But then the next day, the police went and raided all me family and charged them all with money laer and fences. So they tried to keep me on the CATE uni. And then I remember one time they, they were [ __ ] horrible. And they've come in one day. Said, look, we need to have an interview with the tapes and all that. I would sound, you all right? I said, just tell me when he. They get s coming in, s going out. Gets there at half 10. [ __ ] around. Said, I need to cou te on. As I knew what I was doing. And then come to 11:00, the screws went, right, he's got to go back for dinner. So I said to the screw, take me back. So I've gone back, had me dinner, come back out. They about to go through all the ri roll again. Getting there. And then they put the tape on. And he's gone, right, my name's Sergeant blah blah. My name's D. I've got John Bon here. And John, I'm going to start asking you questions. And I said, you know what, mate, don't [ __ ] bother. Cuz I'm not going to [ __ ] talk to you. And I've got no interest in talking to us. You [ __ ] my life up. I said, there's a [ __ ] day you [ __ ] off for. Went to the school, take me back. And took me back to cell. And, um, the [ __ ] NE told me out. I ended up taking another five years for them to to keep them out of jail. Yeah. So I ended up with a 19-year sentence. Basically dropped down to a 12-year sentence with early guilty please. Yeah. And then I think I, I come off the uni. I ends up going to G. I was in G for about a year or so. And then I tried to get me caty and move to aore. But then I stopped a screw from getting twatted in there. And there was little went off on the wing. And there was a woman in there, Jacki. She was sound. Jacky, normal little screw, small. And when it's gone off on the wing, there's a fell screw ear. And Jacky, the kids gone to the with a table. I have just grabbed it and put up arm me. I went, come there, there with that. I want to [ __ ] kill you. He went, you met you, what are you doing? [ __ ] back and screws up once. There's a fell there going, [ __ ] him. Said, you're not [ __ ] in a woman. While am I? Yeah. Yeah. And Jackie had respect for me for that. And then when I tried to move, she come and said, look, she went, there's a police about here. She went, they want you out to the Northwest. I for what reason? Northwest jail. North West jails. Yeah. He said, you got too much influence on the drug culture cons and prison officers. I went, what the [ __ ] he on about? So I ended up getting then a move to Oakwood. Oakwood had just opened. Yeah. Yeah. That was [ __ ] unbelievable. It's like I walked in brand new cell. Under floor eating bed, shower, all brand new. Wi-screen telly, digy box with all me [ __ ] movies on. I had about 2,000 movies and series and and everything on it. It was [ __ ] unreal. So it was a good move then. Don't all me J. What changed me there, Tony? I'll tell you what it was, right? Had some jock owe me about 48 grand. And found me mate up. And you know me mate? Yeah. Phone him up. And I said, look, do me a favor. Going put [ __ ] this country to bed. Me and go [ __ ] knock them out. Get your money off. Yeah. Yeah. And then two days later, NCA have come in. Now I was working in reception, you know, like I used to go there in the afternoon. And all the prisoners coming in. I'd put you on wings where I thought would suit you. And get you like, if you're on the gear, I'd get you on a wing to sort your [ __ ] out. If you wanted to, if you were all right in one of us, I'd get you on our wing with us and get his looked after. If you were just R here, put you on beach or CED, you know, one of the other wings. And I'm in there. I'm want a giggling talking to the lads. And the next minute, I've seen two NCA, you know, the lanyard. And I've gone, oh [ __ ] hell. They, yeah. I went, some [ __ ] in [ __ ] trouble here. And then he's gone, John Bon. I going, yeah, yeah. What he, can we have a words with you in the office? I ain't going in no [ __ ] office with you, mate. Whatever you've got to say to me, you [ __ ] say it right in front of me with Dy witnesses. And he went to an Osman war. Need you to sign it. And I went, what's that for? He went, to to thre on a life, my life. He went, no, someone's out there. Went, what the [ __ ] you got to do with me? He went, cuz you [ __ ] made the [ __ ] order from your pod two night to go in your C. I went, [ __ ] off. I'll tell you what, mate. I got back there. Got me m to get me phone out. Smashed it up. And never used one ever again. And that was in 2014. Yeah. And I just went, you know what, bang, [ __ ] that's it. I'm done. And but that phone call, John, by just say seven of us of listen. I want me [ __ ]. Don't give him a. You know, give. But they, they sort of making. I said, put him a kip now to me. A. So when we say it's putting, you could be having an argument with your beard. And you've got on a text message, I [ __ ] off. I'll [ __ ] kill you. You don't actually mean you're going to [ __ ] kill her. Yeah. Yeah. You know. And if they go to the police and say, look, he said he's going to kill me. They, they, they follow that up by saying, for us, it's a figure a speech. The way we used to talk, Scousers. Yeah. But I tell you what, [ __ ] after that, mate, I never. I just meant, you know what, I'm done. I thought, if, if e got [ __ ] and died, I'd have got laed off. And I, and I just thought, you know what, I'm [ __ ] D. And even to this day, I've got a [ __ ] fortune owe to me off people. Yeah. I'm not [ __ ] interested. Not Tred to see two of them when I out and went, look, you're on license. You come near me. And phone on the police. And these are straight people, by the way. What C TV and all that [ __ ]. I said, you know what, I went, sh the money. I went, that's it. I'm done. And I never gone back. Yeah. So obviously being in jail, John, I wanted to as year as well, you know. And I [ __ ] think it's what, what you've done was [ __ ] absolutely outstanding. The one of the rdale groom is your cop four. That was in, um, that was when I was getting sentenced, was it? Well, was that was in the court, was it? Yeah. So what happens is, I was getting, so I could only go in cat a vans. Now, have you ever seen like the go Amy vans and stuff? The [ __ ] police and everything. All the cat a vans are the one with a red, a red stripe through it. So they're like a jamby. Yeah. But they're not like a normal goam s. They were come for seat. You got one little pad in it. You had four guards there. And it was like brilliant. But now we goes down to get sentence. Then they out at the underneath the court at the back. I couldn't go with normal people in in underneath the court because was Kate. Yeah. So they had different cells around the corner. And I remember all the, um, the rdale groomers there. B. Yeah. Yeah. And there was about, I think there's about seven or eight of them. And he was a little one. I was remember cuz he reminded me of Mowgli. Do you know what I mean? Out of the [ __ ] jungle. He had long G. Yeah. Yeah. But every time he was coming past, like I'm in the wind. He's going, you all right, mate? You all right, mate? I'm going, [ __ ] off. And you knew he way. Exactly who the way. Yeah. Because they were all cat a at the time as well. And the screw was in the van with me. Uh, he, he, he just locked him. I went, he went, I said, can I get the toilet? He went, yeah. B. Oh, I've seen him walk past. I thought, give it a minute. Went, SC, can I get the toilet? He knew what I was going to do. Cop for. Yeah. He knew exactly what I was going to do. But I thought, you [ __ ] rat. And then I was already angry. It was [ __ ] all the [ __ ] that you've got going on. And then I've come out. And you're not supposed to be out together. So they've let us out. If he's coming out of the toilet. And as he's come out, just attacked him and whacked him. I just put him a [ __ ]. Yeah. It was only small. He was only a little fat small big, whatever dir b. I. And I thought, you know what, made that [ __ ] cuz he was [ __ ] golden me. You know what I mean? Everyone like knew what they were in for. But yet they all wanted to try be your m. I going [ __ ] off. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it was all. So when I got back to the jail, it was [ __ ] all over the Kate unit. So all the lads was like [ __ ]. I remember being in the Kate unit, right? And I've not been long being in there. And, um, you he sitting around talking. And someone says, what you're in for? And stuff. And I've gone to this kid. Went, what he in for? He's gone, went, worry, coming in a minute. F. What the [ __ ] you on? But no, was boss lad. Yeah. A [ __ ] sound lad. I got on with him and stuff. And he took me. And he went, look, he said, blah, blah, blah. Just [ __ ] gets all his depths out. He said, you ever tried cutting a body up, John? I said, to be honest, lad, I said, to be quite honest, I was going to cut a body up. I went, I'd be cutting it like I was a chicken. So where all the joints are there. He went, [ __ ] no one told me that. He went, on [ __ ] aor and legs off here. And I'm going, [ __ ]. So and I can't really go too much into is. But oh, the [ __ ] pitches. He he battered the lads with a hammer and [ __ ] killed him. Shot him in the head. Chopped his head off. [ __ ] up. I'm sitting there going, what the [ __ ] am I doing again? But because it's all evidence. He showed me all the pictures. The [ __ ] like the tongue out. All seven here. Just [ __ ] where he's been. I was just like, and this think all right, John. He was. But give him. He was [ __ ] sound. And I mean, he was [ __ ] sound. But this is the type of people you're in there with, you know. And, and look, him and his brother both got a long time. His brother had [ __ ] all to do with it. But you know what I mean? But because he was sort of there at the time when they got arrested, he ends up. The both of them ends up getting 35 years. But two of them were just [ __ ] normal lads. Who one had just lost the plot and [ __ ] went to town. Someone kill someone. But what they've done is they dropped them up and put them in a suitcase and took them up to a railway and set them on fire. But left his Z outside the suitcase. His face. The [ __ ] all. I'm in a [ __ ]. I'm in a Cate unit with. And I'd only been on there about four or five days. Got to know the lads and stuff. You know what I mean? And then I to walk into that. Found it funny. You know what I mean? But people be fing like. But you got to be used to it when you go. Just the way he said, if you ever try cutting a body up, John, just like, just like blaz. Yeah. Just like normal. And like I've said, no. Said, but if it was cutting a body up, like you cut a chicken, you cut it where the joints are. So you know you could chop it or S straight away without having to S through legs and bones. He's he's soing from Shin. Yeah. Where it just cut every part of the body wrong. You know what I mean? But I'm looking at locked up with these people. M. Wow. But do you know what? I I had a [ __ ] really good time on there. It's like jail. I enjoyed jail because I knew when the judge put put the [ __ ] hammer down with with a sentence. I knew what I couldn't get out of it. Everyone throws an appealing. But I couldn't get out of it. I knew what I had to do every day. And I just made the most of it. [ __ ] I had to [ __ ] scream. I had to scream in there. You know, it's, it's night time. Like you've got to remember. We're all just like us sitting in prison. Yeah. You know what I mean? But the good thing is, like you'll have B with people. You'll see some funny things in there. You know what I mean? And like me me m to just be in [ __ ] pleat all day. Then you all to get locked. You know what I mean? So obviously when I come out the CATE, you know, I couldn't share with anyone. So it was always, um, I always had a single cell. Yeah. Yeah. And that's when you're thinking St. And you didn't have phones in your pads then. It was when I got to oood. I had my own phone in my pad where I could speak to the kids and stuff. Which made it a lot easier. And then from there, I tried to go to Oakwood. I mean, to, um, Thor Cross or K Thor. Bang. Put a knock on it. I ended up on the AR she in [ __ ] bottom end of the. Yeah. But it ended up being best, best sort of caty had gone to. You know what I mean? Because one, it did rehabilitate me. Two, the police were still putting the authorities would pull off of me everything I tried to do. So I got there with 20 months left to save. I'd probably been out and a couple of months later on on a town visit. I w't getting [ __ ] all. Yeah. And then it was, I got my town visit on nine months. Right. Now, three weeks before that, I got ill in there. And I ended up in hospital. And the screw had to come with me. And for the first, like, he was chain, chain to the bed and stuff. And he all had a meeting. He come back. He went, look, he went, we're [ __ ] going to leave you. He went, at the end of the day, he said, you've been in the jail now near 11 months. You haven't had a tow. You've not been out. You've not done [ __ ] all. You went, look, the police have got a marker on you. They don't want you to go out. He said, you a de. What you're doing now? He said, you have to do your license every other day. Get up, go downstairs, make sure the stamped and stuff. And I'd done that for a three weeks. And it goes back to the jail. And the governor and me personal officer and a couple of screws called me. And I went, look, went, you got a marker on you. The police don't want you out. He said, but you've been in the hospital for 3 weeks nearly now. You a day by ever think you've come back? He went, phone your family up. Said, you can go out sday. That all right? It was the 6th of December. And I think 6th of December 2015. I think it was. Or maybe around that. I went to London. I met me kids. And met a few me, um, family. Now, I knew I was getting followed everywhere. But it was the December London was choer. And where I put down on my plan that I was going for food, I couldn't get in there because it was choer. So I went around to Chinatown. And then it gets back to the jail. And did TR and pull you on that? Well, I didn't. I knew I knew slipped them. You know what I mean? Cuz everywhere I went, he was just. And I could see them just on me. But I slipped them anyway. Gets back to the jail at 5 to 7. There about 27 screws and busies all waiting on reception for me. They thought I was getting off and w't coming back. And I've walked in. I've gone. They've gone, B. And and gone, yet. They going, yeah. You have to get an ear lock. They put me in like a cell in the reception. I was going, what's up? Keith was one of the screws. And they was s Keith. I went, Kei, what's going on? He went, look, we're trying to deal with it now. Went, these the, you've been getting follows. No, been getting follows. He said, but you never went to this restaurant. To when Keith, it was [ __ ] CH. I went to [ __ ] CH to China down. Which was literally facing. I'm back now. [ __ ] so he for for me. Keep the governor come down. And for for me. Went, no, he's not taking him nowhere. He's staying here. He went, not disclosed you me back in Clos conditions. Didn't he? And the screws and the governors and all that fought, um, fought me case for me. And then I ends up staying there. And then for every two weeks, then I had to go to Westfields in Stratford. Westfields, that's the big shopping center. That's what I had to go in there every two weeks. And from 10 o'clock in the morning till 4, 5 o'clock in the afternoon, I had to stay in Westfields in the Sho and pre. Yeah. I was getting followers everywhere. Well, I was coming. I was going in KFC. I was going in for me bref. Was going in Yos Sushi. The same people were there all the time. And in the end, I S. I sent him a [ __ ] a drink. And that over. I went, you're okay. I've seen you now. The four or five times with your kids and stuff. Or your mates. Just come to see. I never. Don't know what. I couldn't have me mates down. He wouldn't allow me to me mates come down. There was a couple of me mates, Robbie and Mi, who were allowed to come. But he just bans everyone because they just F. But you know what it's like. I've not gone out and [ __ ] killed people. I've not been a menace to society. All right. I've done some [ __ ] naughty things. But you do that when you're growing up. You know, I didn't go course of maym to get the the treatment I deserved. Yeah. I didn't deserve what I got. But in a way, it changed me. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I, I remember one of your mates coming in. Me and bearing in mind, I'd used, um, Blackberries. I'd never ever been on an iPhone. I think we were on iPhone 2 when I got nicked. And he's coming in. He's talking about these apps and stuff like that. You didn't know what an app was. No. I knew what bits were off off Blackberry. But I didn't know like all these iPhones. And he was telling me about apps. Now, what I've been doing for months, I've been writing stuff about what I could do, get out and get myself straight. And I've always stopped people getting bullied in jail. I [ __ ] hate bullies. And me and me mates always put a stop to it. I've always helped people in jail. Reading the letters, writing the letters. Some people don't [ __ ] can't be. Yeah. And a lot of the traveler network. A lot of them don't read and write. And I [ __ ] love most of the travelers. They're [ __ ] brilliant people. Yeah. You know, down the loyal as [ __ ]. You see, you know, when I've got, I had so when I got to Stanford Hill, bearing in mind, I got the, they had two wings. One was called Essex and one was called Brixton. Right? So you can imagine what I was walking into. And I thought, so we arey M on. I'll be on there. A bit of color in me skin. Didn't I? [ __ ] off. Straight to Brixton. I've gone on a wing four. Londons. Just everyone black in there. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm on there. And I'm like, I bet [ __ ] H. What's going on here? And then I've got two black lads come up. You Scout Johnny. Went, see, I've got something for you here. And I'm thinking, what the [ __ ] is this? But they give me big bags of shopping, food and stuff like that. And I enjoy being on there. And then I got my own little pod working out and stuff. And I've gone into pods one day. Just been I working on the prism van. You know, taking lads to like Sittingbourne Station, Rochester, stuff like that. And my mate owns most of Rochester. So every time I was dropping them off there, I was going in his restaurants and having breakfast. I was going back to jail training. Dropping them off at Sittingbourne, having a bite to eat. Going in, going in the gym. And then I go back to Rochester of a night. And me m had all different restaurants. Twice to go there. Three course Mees W for the lad. Right. So I was happy. I didn't need a [ __ ] job. And then, um, goes back to jail. And I said to Keith, Keith, can I get? I had me own Keith for the pads. You have your own. Yeah. Locks there. I said, Keith, can I get me, um, me key there? Mate's gone, yeah. Go ahead, Scout lad. So going to get me key. I've [ __ ] Scout. You look like a [ __ ] Jedi. And I've turned around. There's a baly fell sitting here with a tweet jacket on and jumbo cords. And I've gone, [ __ ] off. You baly. When you [ __ ] look like a [ __ ] Jedi with you jumbo [ __ ] shitty corduroy. AR giving him [ __ ]. He's having banter with me. A few minutes. And I went, anyway, Bal, who the [ __ ] are you on my wing? Glad you said that, Johnny. Said, my name's Jim Padley. I'm the new number one Governor. I've gone, oh [ __ ]. Now. So bearing in mind at this time, Tony, I'm like, I'm, I'm pretty big. Had a skinhead on. You know, there's a few people in Stanford deil who anyone know. I put it on anyone in there. I didn't give a [ __ ]. There was people who were sound there. People just [ __ ] melts in there. And I give him a bit of [ __ ]. And then I told him, like, he, I said, oh, look, Jim, sorry about that. He was a from Manchester. He'd been in the ways. He said, I've read all about you. He said, I had your file in, um, in in strange ways. He went, I've come down. He went, look, he said, anything you need, he said, talk to us. I went, look, said, got an idea problem. And all. Yeah. I said, I've got an idea. I said, of an app. I said, but it's on an iPhone. I went, I've never used an iPhone. He said, well, why don't you get one and bring one in? I went, what you mean? He went, well, I besid you like. I used to have like when you're going out, you have to have a phone. He allowed me to have an iPhone. And to do research. So I told him about the app. And all that. He went, yeah, brilliant. He said, probably really good idea. Went, I'll support you. Know. I went, look, I said, I do me, um, the drop-offs of the vans and stuff. He said, I need to research you. Me, we'll stay outside in the prison cafe. Take your van down there. And I'll give you the authority to stay down. [ __ ] what's name. He was [ __ ] brilliant. Jim. And, um, I stayed down there. And don't know research. And then he said to me, Jimmy goes, look, Johnny, said, I'm going to be honest. He went, you scared the [ __ ] [ __ ] out of me, mate. He went, you're big. You're a skinhead. You got a big [ __ ] Scouse mouth. Anyway, he said, I said, look, Jim, I said, if you back me, I said, you'll see a different person when I get out. You all right? And what was the option that you, you've been thinking about? So all all our D was i' been writing stuff out to Hell people and stuff like that. And then one thing that resonated to me was people coming to my pad and dropping bags off in the morning, going out, having a fight, and coming back in overnight just so they could bed down and get somewhere. And I couldn't get my heads around there. I was thinking, why the [ __ ] are I was thinking, why are people getting out and they're getting 47 quid? They're going down. They're probably getting a quick [ __ ], some food, a bit few bevies, and twatting someone just to come back in for 10:00 overnight life. I couldn't get me heads around there. And I was like, there's got to be more to. And I'm sitting in me pad. And I went, I've got a [ __ ] Happ here. And I've got it Happ to sort of help people find the right dentist, find the right doctors, find the right hospitals, find the right house, and find the right train and find employment. And I thought, I [ __ ] build an app. And that's when I approached J Bar. He went, yeah, sound. And then he said to me, before you got out, I think I had 14 months left. And he said about me being a [ __ ] stead. And blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, I said, I'll change. And then when I got sick, I lost 11 kilo. Had a infection in me bow. But they'd left me in in bed for two weeks in the prison. And it was only Mr. Chemo, one of the screws, has come over. He's gone, what are you still like this? I went, do you want to do nothing about it? He's gone over, [ __ ] flipped at the doctor. Got a blood test. He went, we'll come and let you know this afternoon. Within five minutes, it was an ambulance there. Rush to hospital. Rush me straight to hospital. Yeah. So I lost a load of weight. Then I started like training and get rid of the weight sides of stuff. And the heavy weights. And I grew me air. Ended up getting glasses. And then I've gone in two weeks before I was getting out to do a presentation. And I've gone in. He gone, yeah, can I help you? I went, yeah, I've come to do me presentation. He's gone, [ __ ] hell, John. You would change. He just didn't even know what it was. And then I dmy presentation of how I designed my app. And what I wanted to use it for. And what tool in front of John. It was in front of the governor and prison officers, cons, CS. There was about 30 people in there. And at the end of it, I thought, you know what, I'd done.

A great job, and then everyone was like, "Just SMACK!" Yeah, they went saying, and I was thinking, "[ __ ]". And Jim stood up, and he, you know what, he had like, see, he had a lump on his throat, tearing his eyes. He went, "Johnny, went looky, when you... it's probably the best thing I've had on me desk in 30 years. I've worked in the prison system." So then I've got emotional a bit, you know what I mean? Thinking, "Yeah, yeah." And he, he so backed me on it. And then I always say in life, "Everything happens for a reason." I gets out, dear, me from Liverpool. Some of restrictions where I couldn't come back into Liverpool, and I moved to ROR. Yeah, yeah. And I stayed here for three months, while I, um, while just seeing me kids and stuff like that. Yeah. And I went back down to Kent. And every, every day by Rochester, there used to be a little place by these apartments on the river, by the boats. I used to sit and have a coffee on my own. And I just thought, "You know what? I used to see these flats and I thought, I [ __ ] love to live in one of them, you know? A nice little flat where you can come out, there's all boats in front of you. I just wanted the mellow life. Just, I had a [ __ ] crazy life, and I just thought, "You know what? I just need to just mellow down now and just go and get a grip in your life and stuff like that." And I goes there, there's the flat empty. And I went, "[ __ ] off!" So I went to an estate agent, spoke to the, um, estate agent. So them, I just got out of prison, what I was doing. And he said, "Look, we'll have a chat with the landlady for you." And just as I was getting in the car, they shouted me back and said, "The landlady wants to come and meet you." And never forget Jackie. She come down. And I got on with Jackie great. And she said, "You know what, John? Pay your deposit and your month up front, you man. If I don't, I'm going to give you six months. If I don't get the other four months' rent, you man, it's my loss. You, but I'm going to take, give you that chance. I'm going to take a chance on you." Yeah. And I lived there for two years. Now, here's the weird part of it. I was trying to get my app built and developed, and the prices I was getting were [ __ ] astronomical. And my next-door neighbor, guy called Carl. I'd only spoke to them once. And, um, his name was Carl. He lived next door. And he fitted windows and doors and houses with his brother. That's all I knew of them. Only met him the one spot where my bedroom window was here, his balcony was here. And where my, and he was there, it would look straight into his window. My mom died when I was, she was 43. Me mom, when she died, I have little weird dreams and stuff now and again. I had this, kept having this dream, "Carl's the answer to your tech. Carl's the answer to your tech." I just thought, "What the [ __ ]?" I woke up in the morning going, "[ __ ] tech!" He's a [ __ ] winter [ __ ] after ton. Never thought nothing of it. And then I used to sit outside on me veranda. I used to have like tea leaves, Yorks of tea leaves and soy milk and stuff. And then a lot, do you know when you look in someone's, and the curtains are open? I [ __ ] seen all computer screens and I've gone, "[ __ ] off!" And I've gone, "You know when you get sh body?" And I've gone, I went, "Carl!" I shout to Carl. I went, "Look, me." I went, "Do you do anything but RS and, um, tech, tech, tech and all that?" Yeah, yeah. "Like Carl's definitely on the spectrum." But, and this was in 2017. And he went, "Yeah, yeah." Said, "Look, come down to me." I went, "I had a [ __ ] berserk dream last night, mate." I went, "But it's been playing on me all morning." I said, "[ __ ]!" And seen all your computers. He's come in, he's had to look through. And he went, "Yeah." He said, "Give me a day." I said, "I'll have a look through it and see what I can do." And then he come back to me the next day. Went, he went, "Yeah, I should have had a look through. I should, I can build that for you." I went, "You're happy?" And where he went, "[ __ ] ha it!" I said, "If I match your money, what you're on now, would you come and work for me?" He went, "[ __ ] rightwards!" Yeah. That was what, near eight years ago. He, he's up here now with me here. Sh. But he built my app. And with that app, John, did that get, you know, made and put into the prison system? And it couldn't, it couldn't go into the prison system because people can't, you can't have, so you're not allowed phones in the prison. So what about I, where you can go to like, what have done is for the first, what gets out and goes back to Kent and lives in the flat. Carl's designed the me app. And I goes around to all these tech sector organization meetings, clinks and stuff like that. And I'll be honest, I was a bit to the bone with them, you know what I mean? And then I found this other firm that built this app about a year after I built mine. And gone there and went, "So I'm there, there's like, these are all big wigs, like posh people who have built this up." So your [ __ ] idea, yeah. And then I've got mine built. But mine, Wayne De, was better than mine. But then he come out with like, there's 300 people in this, in this room. I'm the only person who's been away, by the way. The rest are all like posh people and people in like meetings and stuff. And I've read, "You know what we want to do with these? Is we want, you know when you go to court and you get sentenced? You said, we want to make sure you've got like an iPad that's going to be in like the Goa vans that you'd be able to use to go to court." And I burst out laughing. But laughing, like, come get me head round it. And he went, "You, you find something funny?" I went, "Yeah, yeah." I said, "Do you really think if I've just got 10 years up my ass, I'm going to get in a [ __ ] sweat box, play [ __ ] Tetris on the way to go to jail?" I went, "I'm going to smash it!" You went, "What do you mean you're going to smash it?" I went, "Well, that's the, that's what you've got to get in your head." I went, "If you've put tech in, in a, in a van that's taking you from court to prison, and you've just got 10 years, the first thing you're going to do with that thing is punch it and put a [ __ ] big hole in it." So everyone's like, "I'm having it with them now." Yeah. And at the end of it, I had about 40 people around me. They had no one around them. And they didn't like it because I'd had lived experience. And I spoke my mind. Like, I'm all against like people just like, I always challenge people who have funds. And so you got funds and why aren't you putting people in work or what not? As easy as time we get it as easy. And I always said when my business started, well, it's not my business really, cuz I can't get a bank account. Mhm. So I go for a bank account. I got mocked back by Monzo six months ago. Yeah. So I have to online bank account. So I can't beat anything. But my, my kids, the day I got out, my, my son was 19. Anyway, we set Inside Connections up. Yeah, yeah. Ben and Ben and Livy and I with the directors. Where other people have brought in. And they're [ __ ] smashing it. Well, that's what I'm saying, John. Inside Connections. What is Inside Connections? What you? So Inside Connections was basically a tool that you could go on your phone and find, you know, if you needed a dentist, if you needed a doctor, if you needed an optician, if you needed somewhere to live, if you needed to find out where a prison is, if just anything that was a tool that would help you progress to rehabilitate yourself. Yeah, yeah. And then I got it built. And then in 2019, I was approached by Willmot Dixon. And, um, bear in mind, me app was getting out there. Yeah, people starting to use it. And the ideas I had then, some of them are not there now because it just didn't work. But it was how you sort of manifold to what you want to get today. And then Will, Will M Dixon approached me and he said, "We want you to start working with the prisoners with us." And I said, "Where is it?" They went, "At Liverpool's Kings Dock car park." So if you remember the car park by the, the one down. So all the cars were still in it, weren't they? Yeah. So they were building the 30 million pound car park. So you seen Kings Dock car park. I'd helped them build that with, with the people that have come out of. So my first one was one I had to go and have a meeting with the police, a meeting prepation with Will M Dixon and myself because I weren't allowed in Merseyside. So they lifted me and said, "Look, we're going to." They've seen the work I've been doing. And there was always people still hesitant about me going down a crime with. But I totally add it in me head that I'll never go down that life again. It's a life of [ __ ] misery, upset, hate, and pain for you and all your family. And it will never, ever change. And I'll never go that, I'll never [ __ ] do any. I'll never go that way or that way for anyone. I'm going that way now. And that's the only way I'm going in life. But when you first come out of prison, people don't believe you. I couldn't get funds. And I couldn't do anything. I work with a Skills Centre in London who helped me with funds. And I started putting people into work. By the time branched out, every, yeah, yeah. And then by the time I got to, um, to Liverpool, 2019, September 2019, I started with the first 12 lads out of Thorn Cross prison. I had them coming out of prison and going to the Kings Dock Park. I had them on a, touring their own way. There was the old get. So I, I don't, can't remember where some were getting the trains and then they were getting brought in. I can't really, it was like 2019. I can't really remember. But they were getting there in the morning for an hour's dinner. They could go to the town center as long as they were back within the hour. You know what I mean? So for them, they were getting out in the morning. They were going to, as they on the way to work, they were buying food, they were eating goods. They were working. Society's coming back. We got them through like a two-week introduction to construction. But the main thing thing was to get them a CSCS card and get them on site. Now, I got me first bit of funds on 40. But I got one of them never turned up on the last day out of 12. And I got 11 of them straight into work on site. So that was steel fixers, um, floor polishers, stuff like that, where they were building the car park. Everything was going great. Got another load in there. And then we come to March 2020. COVID. And all bearing in mind, the 21st of March, Carl moved to Liverpool from Kent. Yeah, yeah. And all the way up, he was, he was talking about what he wants to do in Liverpool. And he can't wait to go out in town and have a bite to eat, this, have a bite to that. But then we got [ __ ] locked down. Like, so he got to Liverpool six months before he went out anyway. So he was [ __ ] fuming. Yeah. But we'd lost all the prisoners then because they all, yeah. So all the prisons, prisoners, prisons locked down. And everyone had to go in. And then I think for about six months, we were probably on full lockdown, weren't we? Yeah, yeah. And then you, it longer though. I think might have been longer. I think face, it was like six months. But a few months, then you could start doing like your shopping, stuff, all that [ __ ] yeah. And then, um, the prison shut. So I'll be honest, we nearly lost everything. Yeah. It's just that we got a bit of funding to start working with frontline workers. So your construction workers needed to be out. So we started carrying on doing our bit. BR and get them. We couldn't. The prisons were shut for two years. Oh, they not let them out now? No. I think the prisons were the last places to open. All right. Yeah. And he wouldn't let anyone out. But the prisons opened then in, I think it was 2022. And we started working again. So we started working. But it was like starting a business straight away. But you had all your contacts and everything. Yeah. And I think now from 2019 up until today, we, we're 4,000 people in into work. Well, that's, I going to say, citizens back into the, you know. And for me, it's like, you know, it's, you've got to look at like, what do they need to get into work? It's all the accreditation. It's all the skills. It's, you know, there's people in prison who need, who deserve to have the key locked and [ __ ] thrown away. I totally agree with that. We know that. Yeah. But there's people who just needs an arm around the shoulder and guided in the right way instead of just live being left to fu. Yeah. And I think I've changed a lot of people's perception on on prisoners because it doesn't make me a bad person because of been to prison. You, you've made mistakes and you [ __ ] you know, you pay for them. But you've got a lot more companies and stuff buying into what you do. But, you know, at that time, I was doing stuff with where everyone was lived experience, this lived experience, that. We're not working with offenders. But I changed a lot of that. And I started getting a lot of people into training and into full-time employment. And I think since we've open, gone from the prisons opening in 2022 up to today, we've got, we've had 400 out on ROT. But we've put 4,000 people into full-time employment. And they've got cards. Yes, yes, cards, everything. Yeah. But so I, I, I changed then. I went from just doing construction. I went then into to fiber telecoms, civil engineering. I'm into renewable energy now, technicians. And all I work with warehouse people. I work with HGV. So I've got a whole array of companies nationally taking people on all over the country. And like just to the, I've been with a company work with now and they're [ __ ] brilliant. They're brilliant. And we're doing some massive, massive work with them now. And for me, just like I always say to people, you know, like we've won five awards. Yeah. I won a big award in the House of Parliament. Right. So I goes down there. And and we load of posh people, toughs. And Lady Val runs the Corat network. I just love her. She's just one amazing woman. And we're in there. And Liverpool Narcos had not long been out. Yeah, yeah. So I was on. So Liverpool Narcos on Sky, that wasn't it? Yeah. But I was in three episodes. And it was called The Liverpool Grafters. A f. And then I was in the first episode, the second episode. And my kids were in the third episode with me explaining the effects it on. They went away. And then Sky fed me up and said to me, I had, I was the only one with written documentation. So I could have a say on what what was happening. And, um, Sky follow me up and said, "Look, we're changing the name." I said, "What to?" We went, "Liverpool and Narcos." I went, "Why you [ __ ] changing it to that?" He went, "Well, John, we've got to draw people into what we're doing." I went, "Look, I said, you're going to change it to Liverpool Narcos." I said, "There's already been a Liverpool Narcos on Channel 5." And it was Ian and Jason. And it, it's all had been. And I said, "Look, have you going to change that Liverpool Narcos or I'm not having my kids in there associated with it." I said, "Take me out of episode one." Cuz it was more about heroin. Episode one. Episode two was more about tablets and stuff like that, which I weren't bothered in. Episode three, I think it was, it was more about like Kus and Steve and me and stuff like that, where they were the ones who [ __ ] smashed it. You know what I mean? We were just small people but done all right out of what we were doing. And it got good send off. And then I'm walking through the Houses of Parliament, been to Houses of Lords, Houses of Parliament, and walking through Westminster Abbey. Bearing the mind, I've got about 20, 25, 30 people with me. All posh toughs, really Lords, MPs. And then I've got this busy shout and stop him. So this buy is chasing me with a [ __ ] gun. "Stop him!" Can you, can you grab? All I'm in Westminster Abbey. And these are all turning to me going, "What have you done?" I went, "I haven't [ __ ] done nothing." So these are all thinking I've done something. So this bus's come on. I went, "What's up, mate?" He went, "He said, is your name John?" I went, "Yeah." He went, "I'd just like to see your hands." I [ __ ] you know, these must have all thought and done something. So everywhere Lady Val goes now, she tells that story about me getting run, run through the House of Parliament. And it was just like I'd done that. Then I'd done a few like other little bits and pieces and started getting notice for what we're doing. Yeah. And then started getting like a lot more companies on. And I've got nearly buying into it. Yeah. I've got nearly every national company now taking, taking people. And I've been today to one today. They're looking at taking another 70. You know? So I've Ted it from like, I've Ted it from people not believing in giving a second chance to people believe and going, "You know what? These are the best workers we've had out now." If I get someone out of a Cat D, who's got two to two and a half years left to save, for me, it's getting them out and putting them society in it. You know what I mean? One of my things is, look, when your bed and your kids are [ __ ] struggling out of you, and they have been since you've been in jail, get you in a job, go earn a proper wage, get home of at home, leave and go support your family and your kids because they go through it more than us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in jail, we know what we've got to do. We've got to deal with it. They're on their own. Bills are going up, rent's going up, food's going up. They're struggling. So it was always in my aim to try and get as many people as I can into training and then into work. That's it. It's working. It's, it's there to see if you think about it. I've put 4,000 people in into full employment. You think how much I've, I've saved the government on it. And as the governments, you know, is that have you had anything from the government? You know what, I don't really ask or whatever. It's not, it's not. Well, look at, at this minute, like for the first four years, I would never get a penny funds in my charity. It's getting a lot of funds. And now, yeah, yeah. We've had DFE, Department of Further Education visits. We've smashed that. We've smashed that off. Off stead. I brought the right people in to educate people in work. And like my two kids now, they're just flying. Absolutely flying. And for me, that's all I wanted in life. I didn't want my children growing up go down that road. I didn't want it. That life is just full of misery, misery, and even more misery. Because never, ever, if you've been involved in criminal where you're going to earn money out of it, can't close your eyes. John, you can't [ __ ] never going to gone away. Do you know what I say this all the time? And, and look, I've got mates and, you know, I love them and whatever. And it's one of those things where, you know, when you're doing stuff with your kids or you've got a business and whatever, great to see that, you know, you doing something together. But then you go to bed, you close your [ __ ] eyes, you got no worry about no one coming through your door. [ __ ] I used to sleep like Stevie Wonder's every night. Me, I'd be [ __ ] like that, just like in bed. You'd be like, [ __ ] 10. Because it's always, you need, always going to come in your door. Was going to come in. Yeah, yeah. Because, and you've always got it. Like you get in the car of a morning, you're checking around to see what if there's pla there. You're in your midor all the time. If you see people twice or three times in the day, straight away you're on them thinking, "The B, B, busies." Yeah. You have people like waiting outside police station, that [ __ ] thing back. Man, oh, mental paranoia. And the best thing I've ever done in my life is go straight. Yeah. But I didn't know how to do it beforehand. But what I've done is all my transferable skills that I've worked all over the world with different sort of high-class people, as I would say, people would call them mafias or cartels. I just call them really eye-clash people who were [ __ ] good at the game. You know, I put all my transferable skills into not working in that network. I'm working in a straight network. All into that. Yeah. I'm working with MDs, working with chief executives, working with founders, owners. And I find that I'm, I'm, I'm working in it, smashing it. And that's, that's, you know, it's brilliant to see. It's, it's great that your kids are involved with it and they're running it for you. Well, the kids are doing fantastic. You know, you know, some of the stuff the kids are doing now, it's like, it's way over my head. You know what I mean? But they're doing it. And for me, that's all I care about. No, that's it. Know, I'm never, I'm never going to be able to have anything in life. Never. You know, I get a decent wage. I can't really have 10, 20 grand in me bank because people are just take it. You know, I can't be a director on a company because I can't be on a [ __ ] bank account to be on a company. Yeah. So it restricts you everything you do. But what you are doing though, John, you're giving them people a chance who, who are getting a second chance. Because a lot of people don't get a second chance. What happens for me? Some Sundays when people first get out, working and they go on at home, leave the FaceTime and we with the kids. And the kids are saying, "L, inside it." It's the first time. I think I had a tear in my eye because my mate who got out, he hadn't been out for 15 years. And the first time Vis, he FaceTime me with his kids and stuff. And it broke my heart. But you know what? It was a good, it was a good one. There a lot nice feeling. Yeah. It was good because I lost. I just love seeing people getting back out with the kids and the family. Because when you're stuck in there, mate, it's, it's the prisons are [ __ ] the prisons are over you. It, you know, I mean, they're over the crowds. And, you know, everyone blames the prison system, this the screws, this the screws that. There's drugs everywhere, there's phones everywhere. It's always going to be like that. You know, it's a cat and mouse game. You know, while you're in jail, if you want to have a life in jail, and you've got to get, you've got to get bits into to live. Yeah. And it's how are you going to get them in? Well, it's for you to get them in and for the screws to try and stop you. Mhm. You know, you've got drones, you've got corruptible screws, you've got people going in and out of prison who just throw stuff up the ship box. You know, so it's always going to happen. You're never going to get away with it. It's, it's try and cut it out. You got the spice. I didn't like in there. I'll be honest with you. When the spice first come out, I, I used to have a joint. Me, yeah. And when the spice first come out, I had to go with the spice. But I never sort of got it. It was a new drug that no one thought what it was. And I used to have two puffs, put it on the side. It was just like you was stone. But I used to see people have three, four, five puffs and just go bang like a zombie in the ends. I went, "[ __ ] this, mate." No. And then, you know, even the screws were saying, "Scouts, just make sure there's no spice when about weed." You know what I mean? The spice was just [ __ ] putting people over. Yeah. You can see it. It was [ __ ] You've got to remember, a lot of people in there for taking drugs. You know what I mean? People got habits and stuff. You know, drugs are going to come in. You know, they're going to take them. They're going to row money for them. They're going to end up in debt. They're probably going to end up on a VP ring with all the, all the U sex offenders and stuff because the only place where they can go. Yeah. You know what I mean? [ __ ] hell. But John, have you ever thought about writing a book? Or, yeah, story approach? Approach? Yeah. I've been approached a few times. And I've been approached about films and stuff. But I probably in next year or two, I'll settle myself down a bit. And then once I'm settled down a bit, you're on your path to di. No, like ADHD. I'm dyslexic anyway. And sometimes my [ __ ] I'm like a maniac. But, but John, but look, what, what, look what you've done. Like obviously, you know, you've saved your time. You've done the crime, you've saved the time. You come out. Look what you've done now. 4,000 people going into [ __ ] full time. So this year alone, I think we let our target. I reckon I, it's a thousand this year. And that's in a year. And that's people going through training courses all over the country. This is it. Yeah, yeah. So why I work with national employers. Everyone's in prisons from different parts of the country. You've got people in Kent and people in, in sort of Thorn Cross, who were from London, Birmingham. Like Birmingham's got no cat other than East Side, which is subb. And, um, people are dotted every. It's all open prisons that you watch. Yeah. It's, it's really good for me working with the open conditions because if someone's got two, two and a half years left to save, one, I can get them into work and I can get them a trade. Or two, I can get them into work and I can get them supporting the family until they get out. That's all I want to do. When, yeah, I don't want people's beds or kids having a hard time. When I can get you out working. And I'll say to them, like, you do get people who go on rattle bands or get shipped out, you know? You've got people coming out and AD AD who got caught with TS of fish. So Mel. But then people think, "Well, what the [ __ ] he doing there?" Well, to buy me in tesco as 80p in jail. To buy an imprison it's 235. So I think to myself, "Will use a cing that yourselves? DHL or whoever it is, do it. Putting the hiking the prices up every month of the biggest thing, the pockets in it." Yeah, yeah. But you've got prisoners there at only ear and 25 quid a week. How the [ __ ] are he me to survive on? How? So you, what you think contraband is going to [ __ ] do? They need to start putting. Few prisons are starting to put their own shops back in there. Like a little T years ago, you used to get like a bag of 50 quid in Walton and go to the shop. You'd be able to spend them. But they're putting shops back in there, which is, it's better because you're going to be paying proper prices and not hiked up prices because you don't get enough money anyway. It's [ __ ] bunk, isn't it? Yeah. But like I say, John, you know, you've been approached over a book or film and stuff. And that's possibly in the pipeline. What is in the pipeline for for you, um, as well? Inside Connections now, it's, it's a national company and it's growing. Um, it's, it's got a few parts to it now. It's got the charity sides of it where it's, we're getting a lot of funds and now. But we're getting a lot of funds and because we're real people. M. We're really training and we're real jobs. And that's what we're getting notice for. But I'm working with loads of national companies. I go around to motivational speaking to like companies, prisons, schools, universities, colleges. And I just explain to people about obviously my life. And, you know, crime doesn't pay. It's, it might pay on the short run. Yeah, but in the long run, it's not going to pay. Going to get. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the biggest gang in our country, I'll always say it, it's the [ __ ] police. And you're never going to get away with them. If they've got you on their radar, believe me, you're on their radar. I like me when, when you're in a criminal world, you [ __ ] hate the police. You know, but when you're out of a world, they don't bother you. Yeah, yeah. You know, like years ago, you'd be driving your [ __ ] clutch foot to be like that. As soon as the blue lights come, you're thinking, "[ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ]!" Now you see blue lights, it doesn't bother you. Yeah. And that's the mentality of like, it [ __ ] what you head. And it's a life of paranoia. Every time, like we were going, like I had a porn company. So I had a, I invested in a porn company making porn films because I was going to Amsterdam or Spain. I was getting an itinerary of girls. I had an interview over there. But for me, it was covering why I was going there. Yeah. They've got you going. They've got you going there. So you [ __ ] anyway. But I was sat there with three scouts just watching porn. Getting my stuff. And they're like, [ __ ] hell. Some of the stuff we went through, honest to God. I brought, I brought three lads from here from ROM with me up to watch a porn getting made. And the porn set, like in front of you there. We're all like, I've seen it before. So I was all right. But these three are all sitting there. She's getting banged from behind. There. So the lights are on there. And the lads are like going, "[ __ ]!" And she's waiting, going, "Come on!" These early going. I went, "You can't [ __ ] get in it." You know what I mean? It's like, I think we ended up making, um, I think it was about five porn movies. But we had like that Omar, like a black guy with a [ __ ] dick about that big. We'd had all of them in. You know what I mean? It was just [ __ ] mental. But we to do it to just cover why you were going there. Like I was going to Spain a lot. Why are you going to Spain? I said, "I was writing properties to my porn." So why was you going to Amsterdam? "I was going to hotels in Amsterdam to inter." But I had the guy, the director of the company, sending me emails where I little trail on that. Yeah, yeah. And then I always remember, like, every time I used to fly, I'd get pulled anyway. And I'd have DVDs, the porn that we'd made. I'd have photographs. I'd have itinerary. And the say, "What you do?" I said, "Oh, I'll make porn films." Film. Then you have them straight away. Then they go, "What, what you mean you make porn over?" I see you. "Oh, look." And start showing them. Start sinking me anyway. You know what I mean? The once they've got you on the radar, you're [ __ ] anyway, aren't you? [ __ ] hell. Me, like, like Morocco, South America. I've been [ __ ] being all over the [ __ ] place making porn. Not just porn, been grafting in most places. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. And there, there's like, there's stuff I've done where I think if I'd have done it and gotten it, I'd have been [ __ ] totally [ __ ] And your gut instinct, you always take that gut instinct. Things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've always done that. And it's worked out right for me. Sometimes it hasn't. But I'd be happier of getting 12 years then be getting 25 or 30 years. Like you see now, we're, we're getting to the way like American prisons are. You know, when I was 20, if you shot someone, you'd be looking, you got a 12, 14. And over there, if you show you shoot people now, you're getting 40, 30 to 40. Yeah, yeah. So it's just going like that. You can get America, you'd be 40 years of age, you get 150 years and you can go for parole in 99 years. Yet you're 4 [ __ ] five. I'm like that going, "How the, what the [ __ ] did you say you going to [ __ ] jail for the rest of?" Just [ __ ] stupid boy. We're going like American jails. So it's [ __ ] Yeah. I think just like you want to see how many people in in America in jail. There millions, really. A [ __ ] massive prisons. A massive business. Yeah. You know, people look at and think, "Well, it's like 50 grand a prison." That's what they say, don't they? Yeah. It is. But you have two, you have private prisons that get less. And you have your public prisons that get more. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And like, I always remember going to the private prison. You call them by the first name. Like, you know, like in the other prisons, it'd be like, "Go or Miss." Yeah. Where in the, in the private, you just call them all by the first name. [ __ ] hell. I remember in Oakhill, there was people starting, you know, I used to interview screws who were starting every, every month, you know, they'd be like 20 or 30 of them. And I, I'd talk to them, tell them what the wings were like. And say, "Look, I used to pick out how many you'd get in there. Probably three or four." There was people who were getting put in there basically to get told, "If you don't go for the job, you're getting sued off benefits." These people weren't ready to go into into prisons working. Yeah, yeah. I've seen, I've seen officers get pissing [ __ ] piss all over them. I've seen them spitting [ __ ] out of their mouths because they've been absolute bastards with people. This is what you get. But what are, do you see in the prison system now from the old officers to the new ones? A lot of people give a [ __ ] about rehabilitation. Yeah. You know, and I always say, you know, you've got officers and you've got staff like that who give a [ __ ]. Then nine times out of 10, you want to have more chance of getting out and getting the right education, training, and support to get yourself into work. I'm in 71 prisons now. That's, that's. I go to prisons now and they'll go, "John Keys." I go, "I won [ __ ] why I'm not having your keys." Me? Well, you might be able to come in. I say, "S, don't come in." I'm going, "I put me training in here." And they say, "Well, well, why don't I?" I'm look, I went, "I'm always going to be one of these. I'm never going to be one of you. And I'm not going to ever, ever open a [ __ ] door in a prison. I will never, ever put put myself in that position. Never." Yeah. I'm never going to be a screw who's been there. I'm, I'm one of these. I'm, I'm an ex, I'm an ex, I'm a retaining citizen. That's the way to say. And for me, it's about my loyalties to all these. I love working with the officers and and the staff in the prisons. The [ __ ] great. But my, my alliance to me is, I will never open the door with a, with a key in a prison. And never will. The only prison door I'd open was me own if it was in a Cat D. I wouldn't do it. And, yeah, I keep getting wound up everywhere to go. And they go, "John Keys." And I'll go, "Stick your [ __ ] keys up your ass with them." But I have a really good relationship with like governors and stuff. I work with judges. And I work with some of the police. And I've had, I've had police come to me and go, "John, look, we've got lads here from County L." I go, "Yeah, we, we need you to help them." I go, "But what you want me to help them for? And spend money on funds. And when you're going to put them in jail?" I went, "If you can guarantee me that I put them through training and put them in a job, you'll NFA them." I said, "I'll work with them." Are the [ __ ] don't I? Yeah, yeah. I've walked into a, I walked into a court right with a, he'd be nicked in Stoke in an uninsured car, 80 bits of crack, 30 bits of Bobby money. Took chase, bang on to got. So all he got in touch with me through through something man. And as, and I spoke him. He come down and see me and said, "Right, talk to me about it." He went, "Right, I got this, this, this, and this." And I went, "Did you do it?" He went, "Yeah, yeah." Said, "But I'm not telling them that." I said, "So did you wrap all the gear?" He went, "Yeah." Said, "So your DNA is all over it." I said, "I bet you just bit them." He went, "Yeah." So your over. And I went, "Look, I'm going to be honest with you now. When, if you want me advice, I'll help you now. If you don't want me advice, just get off." I said, "But what I'm going to tell you to do now is get your solicitor on the phone." I went, "Cuz you're going to change your, your plea now." He went, "What do you mean?" I me, "You're going to change your plea because when you go to court, they're going to have the evidence on you. You're [ __ ] and you'll whack you with a [ __ ] you were in the car, you drove the [ __ ] car, you drove chase, DNA all over. He had bits of Bobby and cracking money everywhere. Said, "You're [ __ ] What you want to just?" I said, "Just listen to me and I'll, I'll wake it for you." So changed his, changed his statement. And the judge said, "I want John Bon on the court case." And then he was in Stoke was was cover at the time. I had to do it by video, video link. Yeah. And the judge said, "Firstly, Johnny," said, "I've been following you." He said, "I love the work you do." He said, "Some brilliant work." He went, "And he gone to the lads." He went, "Blah, blah." He went, "I'm going to tell you now." He went, "I'm giving you four years custodial sentence today." He said, "That's what's on my mind for you." So he's gone straight away. Yeah. He's sitting down. I'm laughing me. But, and then the judge said, "Look," he said, "the best advice you ever took was changing your, your statements." Cuz would you have just H him with a bigger fuing? Yeah. So he said, "You changed your statement at the right time." He said, "So for that, he said, "I'm going to knock 18 months off it." He said, "So that leaves me now with a decision to sentence you now." His head's in his hands. He, he thought he's just got four years. He said, "By you doing that and me giving you the 18 months, you went, I can turn this into the suspended sentence, 24 months in there." Yeah. So I walked him out to court. And he, so he didn't know. He thought he'd got four years. And at the end of it, he thanked everyone. And he said, the judge went, "Mr. B," and he went, "He said, do something with him." I said, "Look, he said, he's done all his courses. I've got a CSCS course." I went, "I've got him a job in Oxford." I said, "So I'm moving him away from Liverpool. He's going down there on two weeks on, three days off, back in." I said, "And he went, you stick to that and make sure he works it with him." I said, "All right." So the screw's gone to me, he's going, "Okay, mate, take me down." And the screw, and the screw said to me, went, "Whoever that was on that [ __ ] on that video call, he out to prison." He went, "What?" "I'm not going to prison." He went, "No, you're walking out." And give the kids their due. I put him in Oxford. He just changed his life like that. Having him coming out of his house of a day and meeting his mates and smoking a spliff, just put him in a different world. Getting him away and putting him in a new area and letting him go on for three days, just give him a new lease at life. Heang, what see John, there's a [ __ ] what name story where you've, you've turned someone's life around. It's like I'd be like, I'm an advocate for like young kids when they get nicked and stuff, you know. And I, I'll educate them their best way. I'll say, "Look, you're bank to right, change your plea, go guilty, you got a less of charge. Or don't change your plea, a trial. And then look where you going to be. That's [ __ ] you know. It's just that we're educated about how prison works, how how the police work, and how solicitors, well, you know, best Ming. Yeah. And I'll educate them and say, "Look, you're making the wrong choice. But it's your choice. My advice is this." I've walked loads of people out of court. I've give kids jobs and kept them. Got NFA off the police for them for no further action. Yeah. Then I don't mind working with them if they're going to do that. Yeah. That's it. If they're going put the, you know, we got a lot of funds in. I don't want to put two, three, four grand into someone funding and the police are going to take him out of work when he's got a job and put him in jail because it wouldn't be fair. Yeah. And it wouldn't be for my, for what I want to do with people. But if anyone wants to get in touch, John, just before we go, how did he get in touch with yourselves? Go get nicked normally. Mess. Just obviously there's the apps on Google, Apple, Apple and Google Play Store. It's called Inside Connections. You can refer through that. You've got the website, Swit, www.insideconnections.co.uk. Or we're working in, we've got five training schools in London. We work from and two in the West Midlands. And we've got our own up in Liverpool and Warrington. And if anyone gets in touch and we, we'll hope we can, you know, I can't work with certain convictions because

A lot of my employers don't want to work with certain convictions like murder. You got there's a lot of this over murder. Look, there's different types of murder. Yeah, we spoke about this before. Yeah, it's like I said to you, I'm not going to put an offender in front of someone and say, "Look, I think he's rehabilitated because he's just someone I wouldn't work with." Yeah, of course.

But if someone's been like in a gang fight 20 years ago, you know, they've gone out, both of them have had a knife, they've had a fight, one's come out of it, one hasn't. But he's just done 20 years in jail, you know, he's gone in as a kid, he's coming out as a man, but hasn't realized what's going on. They're the best people to work with. A lot of life is because they're on a life license. One screw-up on the back to back to close conditions. See you later.

And then you've got arson, you know, it's different. You know, if someone's through a cigarette and it's hit a bin and it's gone on fire, I don't class that as arson. But if someone's paid for it, you've got sex offenses. That's different. Like I used to, no, no, no, not working with sex offenders, blah, blah, blah, anyone on the sex register. But then you look into it a little bit more now. Anyone who's got any sexual convictions against women and children and stuff, it's a no, no. Yeah.

But you've got like, you know, they've got people who've slept with the girlfriends who's three months younger than them, who the mom's found the police. He's just got eight years, but they're shacked up when they get out and they live together. And I'm thinking, well, why should they be on a sex register? Yeah. And then you've got like people who have a piss in the street, you know, it's a public order. If you turn around, show your dick, you go on a sex register. So there's different ways of, I have to look at it a different way now. I can't judge a book by its cover anymore.

I always remember some guy was on a webinar. I don't want a murderer. I had 40 odd people and I don't want a murderer. And I went, I have to stop the webinar and went, "Look, mate, I understand what you're saying." I said, "But what, what's your problem?" He went, "I don't want a murderer working for me." I said, "But you're on this call because you want to look at recruiting people from a different talent pool, and you keep butting in saying, 'I don't want a murderer'." Tell you what, mate, you know, if I seen you in a club and I give you the slap for no reason, what would you do? He went, "Do your back." I went, "Whatever a fall and bang my head and died." I said, "Do you think you shouldn't even be there?" That's different. No, it's not different, mate. I went, "This is where you've got to understand."

I'm never going to work with all, all, all murderers. I went, "But there's people who have done a murder or who've hit someone or banged, you know, stuff." Or, you know, like one of my mates, I was away with him. Him and his mate were having a race in a car and unfortunately, one slammed on, the other one's just clipped them, but the car's toppled over and went on fire. And like, and you know, the parents like would be dead against them. I watched that kid cry every night in jail. MH. And I watched them crying. I was saying, I was saying, "What's the matter?" And he was going, "I've killed me mate. I'm never going to get over killing me mate, you know."

And then people don't, people don't realize the severity of like, if they've killed someone, that a lot of people have, they've got no remorse for them. Then obviously they've got no feelings in them. But then I've watched people. Yeah. And then like kids now, I've seen a lot of people go into jail who have gone into, cuz they stabbed someone and killed them. And they think the [ __ ] of the wing and everything, but I'm going to get the [ __ ]. I've seen it when the judge's put his arm down and said, "25 years." I'm the one who's got to go and sit with that kid at night while he's crying his [ __ ] eyes out, wondering, "What am I doing for the next 25, 30 years?" And that's what I say to kids now.

"Go, look, I go, if you think you, you go flying around with a with a knife and a gun or whatever, went, here's what you're going to do. Going home, go in your bathroom in your mum's house and shut the door and see if you can sit in there for 23 hours." I said, "Because if you can do that there for one night, remember, remember the next 25 years of your [ __ ] life are doing that." And it, it's sort of it hits home and they [ __ ] right. I said, "This is what you have to remember."

I went, "You go out with a knife or a gun, especially a knife. You go out with a knife. Why are you carrying a knife?" Because they're carrying them as well. Okay. Sound. He's carrying a knife, so are you. He's a bit confronted with a knife. There's only two things you're going to do, mate. One's run away and save your life and not go to jail. Or do you want the one's going to use it and you're going to end up with a life sentence up your ass for using it? And the after-effect that it causes and whatever. Oh, it's not nice. I've seen, I've seen people get stabbed. I've seen people get shot. I've seen like people thinking you can stab someone in the leg and think it's normal. It's when you pull that knife out and it's, yeah, and you've got three minutes to live. And if you don't know how to get your fingers in there and stop that bleeding, so we teach people about if you've hit an artery, what to do to stop it bleeding. If you don't know what to do on that, you're [ __ ]. You're looking on the M, you're look, you're looking, you only know. I stab him in the leg, lad. Not going to him, is he? You got arteries that run right through your body. You pull the knife out and you got three minutes to live. If you did, that's it. Yeah.

And I've seen, I've seen videos of like people in the streets just stab someone and the poor kid died. And then I'm thinking to myself, you know what the [ __ ] is going on in this world? It's, it's absolutely bonkers. Then you've got like, you've got companies selling knives and stuff like that. They should be [ __ ] hammered for it. Yeah, zombie knives and stuff like that. Years ago, you know, I when I said to people like, I was moving guns at like the age of 13, 14, I didn't mean like I'm moving guns every day. I was moving drugs, money, stuff like that. And then every other time there was a gun and bullets. And they were only little snub-nosed handguns. They weren't like Uzis or submachine guns. Didn't really get them then. Then you'd always get people like, "Oh, you didn't have guns in them days." [ __ ] course you had guns in them days. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like people didn't know what we got up to because we lived a different world than a lot of other people. I see some of these guns on these streets now and I think to myself, what the [ __ ] going on? It's, it's, it's criminal worlds. And that's what's going to happen. And you know, you're trying to change it for the better though? Yeah. I'll change what I can. I'm never going to be able to change a lot of people's perceptions on on crime and drug dealing and getting involved in criminality. A lot of people just need to learn for themselves.

And I go into prisons now and these enforcers, I've seen how many people get nicked on them and the sentences they're getting on them is just astronomical. Yeah, yeah. They're making an example, aren't they? Lads who, who knew pretty well, who got 35 years for drugs. 35 [ __ ] years for drugs. It doesn't make sense. You think them type of sentences, and don't get me wrong, I'm knocking down and like all that stuff, but what we were talking about like sex offenders and all that. The type of sentences then [ __ ] like me when I got nicked, I said to the judge, "Look." He went, "You know, you've made everyone's life miserable." Everyone. I saw drugs to had a smile on the face. And it don't mean that disrespectful, but I didn't sell them crack and I didn't sell them smack. Yeah, I sold them ecstasy, LSD, weed, coke, speed. They were recreational drugs that people are wanting. You know what I mean? And and I get that. And that's what I was saying before, people are wanting drugs. You know what I mean?

And and but it's like, you know what Tony, when you're in that world, like, you know what I was like, I was driving 40, 50, 60 grand cars. Yeah. I was could go in and buy them cash then. But what I always didn't realize is what I was portraying to kids. I see kids and go, "I want one of them. I want to be like you." Was when you were a kid, like you explained, that's what you were like. I like I'm thinking, they go, "You." I said, "You know what?" I go, "Look, show them a mobile phone." I go, "How much are they?" Me. He goes, "£1,400." I go, "No, it's £30 a month." I said, "The mum and a make 20, 25 grand." Went, "No, it's two or £300 a month." I try and educate them to say, "Go to work for six months, create yourself a bank account, create yourself your wages going in, you can go and get them. You can go and get them and pay £30 quid a month for them. You don't have to go out and do a robbery or drug dealing or whatever to go get £1,400 quid to buy an iPhone." Go to [ __ ] where. Yeah. And you'll find out in the long run that while you're in work, growing in stature and earning more and more money, manage your life and stuff like that. If someone gives you 10 grand in the raw cash, someone gives you a grand in your bank for for being working, you don't give a [ __ ] how you spend that. It's got to be spent. But you manage every pound that's in that bank account until you know you're not getting the next time you get paid. No, it's [ __ ]. That's what I say to all the kids. Go and they understand then. They go, "[ __ ], didn't think like." Yeah, but that's the way you've got to look at it. Everyone's not all about going out and trying to get the new iPhone 'cause it's £1,400 quid. Yeah. It's about getting a job, sustaining a job, creating a credit line for you, getting any credit you want for phones and cars and going to work every [ __ ] day and learning a life. Because you could earn 20 grand, six months later that could walk into you as as a conspiracy. You might get 15 years for that. Yeah, yeah. You work out how much for every day you're in prison, many years and stuff like that. Works out about £6 a day. You know what I mean?

And then when you're working, stuff like that, the people's brains work different. So I had a kid in the other week, 15 years. He's he just got out after doing a 15. And he went, "Gosh, I need a job. Or can't go on all them computers. Don't know, mate. Don't know English." I've gone, "What were you in jail for?" He went, "Drugs." Went, "How many grams in an ounce?" He told me. Went, "How many ounces in a kilo?" He told me. How many kilos in a ton? He told me. I went, "So where did, where did you keep your tick list?" He went, "Up here." It's okay. He said, "If I give you the cake here and you cut it in four." He went, "A [ __ ] all them cakes." I went, "All right." I said, "Here's a kilo of cocaine." I said, "I've cut it in four. I've got him in quarters." I said, "Okay, so whatever." Cut them again. I went, "So that's fractions." I said, "Joe, you've got quarters, eights, 16s." And he went, "[ __ ] hell." He said, "Is that what that cake was where you cut in different pieces?" I went, "You anywh." But you've only learned me it was a kilo of cocaine and I know how to cut it and I know how to make 16 sat quarters. And I went, "That's." And I put him on a test and he [ __ ] pissed it. Yeah. I just said, "Look." I went, "Just go on for 10 minutes." I went, "I won't put you on English. I'll just put you on maths." I put him on a basic skills test and he got [ __ ] level two. But I give him a certificate and he cried because he never, yeah, he didn't have a certificate in his life. But his probation officer was just gob smacked, going, "You can't tell him to cut a kilo of cocaine up like that." Went, "I'm going a minute, love." Went, "Do you realize what I've just [ __ ] done with him?" I said, "You're trying to get him into to do stuff." I went, "The only way I can explain to a drug dealer how to make something, I don't be giving them a [ __ ] chocolate cake and tell him to cut it up and eat and work out what it is." I went, "You give him a kilo of cocaine and get him to chop it up into ounces, quarters, and and stuff." He went, "He will know what it is." And I clicked on and she went, "Oh my God." Yeah. Oh [ __ ] H [ __ ] out. John, John, do you know what, mate? I think we could [ __ ] speak and I think we probably have to do a [ __ ] part two. But listen, listen, mate, that from start to finish was absolutely brilliant, mate. And I just want to say thank you so much for sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly, mate. Thanks much. [Music]