Transcription
[Music]
This is part one of a two-part series entitled Black Man, White Woman. Significantly, it was not entitled Black Woman, White Man, because in the last 10 years, statistics indicate that there is a significant increase in relationships between black men and white women, and a significant decrease in relationships between black women and white men.
With me to discuss this very volatile issue are two leading psychiatrists: Dr. Francis Welsing, a member of the uh, psychiatric dep- Department of the Medical College at Howard University, and Dr. Alvin Fant, a psychiatrist, a member of the Medical College at Harvard University, and author of the well-known book, "Why Blacks Kill Blacks."
To begin with, you, sister, well, why do you believe, basically, black men are becoming so significantly attracted to white women, or is it vice versa?
I'd like to turn it around. Um, I think, first of all, that, um, white women are seeking black men first. Black men are, some are attracted to white women, and I don't think that we can understand this phenomena unless we understand really what is the larger dy- dynamic that is occurring, uh, not only in this society but in the world at large. And the way that I look at that phenomena is that, uh, number one, we are living within the context of, um, a system of white supremacy, which is my definition of racism. Racism is a worldwide system of white supremacy, domination, and control. And all of the behavior that we see all over the world, whether it's the behavior of the black woman, the white woman, the black man, or the white man, is occurring within the dynamics of this system. And, um, we can understand what is happening as far as the white woman, black man relationship and why that is on the increase, I think, if we understand the need for the system to remain intact.
But Francis, okay, you don't think that, um, the black man has a special attraction toward the white women?
Oh, yes, he does. Yes, he does. He, well, he has been programmed historically to feel that, first of all, this is the woman who is the woman in the world, and this is a thing that has been denied him, you know, in terms of, let's say, uh, male-female relations or sexual partners. The black man, at least in this area of the world, has been told historically, "You cannot look at, you cannot touch this woman." And so, at that level of social dynamic programming, yes, the white, the black man has always felt, "Well, this is the one thing that I have been denied in this society." And so many black men, I think, uh, for, you know, at one level, they are moving towards white women as white women move. White women are the major aggressors in this situation, but the black man is playing his role because he says, "Well, this is a thing that I've been denied. This is the thing that is going to be the great equalizer."
I think, though, that the, the need has sort of been exaggerated because if we look at those statistics you just mentioned, actually, in the, in the past decade, even with the increase, is only about 43,000 black man, white women marriages. That's a very, very tiny percentage. That means about 2% of black men are married to white women. Now, if we had accepted the propaganda that is the white propaganda that all black men desire white women and they want to marry your daughter, you would expect the incidence of the, the marriages to really be increasing at a much greater.
I was going to ask, does it mean that, uh, uh, that the fact that, if we, if we accept the fact that black men do feel that white women are preferable to black women, are we saying that their behavior in the context of standard behavior is normal or abnormal?
Well, I don't, I don't like to use those terms. I would prefer to understand the phenomena. For example, if we start labeling behavior, um, like, for example, homosexuals don't like to be called pathological for one thing. And I think that it is more useful if we say, "Well, let us try to understand the phenomena of homosexuality," as opposed to saying, "Well, now, that's sick." And then people get turned off, and they don't spend time trying to understand the dynamic. In the same way, I don't want to look at the phenomena of, you know, cross-color, uh, sexual mating or marriage or whatever, and in terms of pathology. I would rather say, "Well, let's try to understand what actually is going on."
You call the white woman the aggressive. I say that she is aggressive because we live in the context of a white supremacy society in which white people are the dominant group. They are the people who control the power. We are the oppressed people. We are the people who are victims of that system. Just like, I mean, in terms of history, it was just a short two months ago in terms of whole historical span that black men were being lynched for looking at a picture of a white woman. Do you see? And now we are told, "Well, now, everything is opened up." Well, I want to understand, well, why is it that everything has opened up? I think everything has opened up since black men started talking about black power. You see? When black men start talking about black power, then that says, "Well, all right, maybe there will be a challenge to the system of white supremacy domination, not only in this area of the world but all over the world." So the white supremacy system says, "All right, well, now, what do we do to, you know, get these people back in control? And what do we do to get them back in check?" That is the black man. Well, we'll lay our ace trump card on them, which is a white woman. In other words, brings the black man then back within the context that the white supremacy system is going to work for you. See, we've denied you this. Now you have it. But on close examination, in spite of all of the black-white marriages, the black-white sex that has occurred throughout history in the last 500 years, there has been no serious tampering with the maintenance of white supremacy, not certainly not through the bedroom activity. Do, do you see what I'm saying? But in other words, it throws people off balance. In other words, the white woman is still, I think, in a position of psychological dominance. And so far as she is, that's a form of white supremacy. And that the black men are frequently responding to her dominant position, the fact that she is considered a superior status object in the society.
But getting back to this point, let me ask a question before you move to there. Then, if, if we accept that, are we saying that the black men who marry white women are asking for dominance from a female?
No. The black men who are married by white women, but you, you continually.
No, I think that they are looking for status. The black men are looking for stat- the black men are looking for status, whether they are aware of it or not. In other words, as long as you have white supremacy domination, any place in the world, whether it's Brazil, whether it's Hawaii, whether it's Japan, uh, any place you name it, that as long as the people of color are the people who are oppressed, then when a marriage occurs, in other words, the dominator says, "I will pick you amongst the victims who I dominate to marry you." Then the victim says, "Oh, good. This means I'm in."
Well, that's true. But if, if I can ask this question, okay? It seems the way you're framing your analysis that the almost total blame, if we can use that word, for interracial marriages is because of one, white society, vis-à-vis white supremacy seeking to maintain itself, and two, white women being the aggressors. You seem to, uh, be saying, and I'm asking a question, that, uh, black men are just, uh, blameless and they're sort of like the victims of something that they have no control over, or that they have no need to be married to a white woman for some perhaps pathological basis.
Now, let's say, for example, if you set up the conditions for the development of a sadomasochistic relationship, then the masochist, as well as the sadist, is a part of that relationship, and they are playing roles that they have been conditioned to play. In other words, a person who is a masochist seeks out the sadist because then they could play, uh, their sort of dual game. M- their mutual reciprocity together. Now, within the dynamic of the system of white supremacy, you have, for example, many of the white women who are with black and other non-white men are actually, I believe, having a dialogue with white men. How does that work?
See, the dialogue goes like this, according to my analysis. First of all, the white women, we have the women's liberation movement, which is a dynamic of white females, okay? They are asking for liberation out from under the white male. All right? Now, within the dynamic of the white supremacy culture, you also have penis envy. In other words, the white men have been perceived as being dominant over the woman. And so the woman says, "Well, I wish I had a penis." Okay? So what does she do? She says, "Well, I'll go out and get one that's supposed to be more powerful than yours, but I'm going to control it because we are white, and we control all of the non-white." So she goes out and she selects, and all of this is unconscious, you know, activity, if you will. She goes out and selects a non-white man, be he black or any other non-white. Then she is walking down the street, or they can go to the, you know, uh, justice of the peace or the priest or be married. And anytime a white man sees that, she is communicating to him, "See, I've got one because I am in control of this."
But I, I don't think we can, uh, you know, generalize to that extent. I think that that's, um, uh, that's a theory. But it's getting back to the question. When we present arguments, uh, that way, is whether the relationship between black men and white women are pathological. Now, Francis said she doesn't like to think of it in that framework. But the fact is that a lot of psychiatrists have presented or said that interracial relationships and marriage, uh, stem from a, a type of negative psychological, uh, position or some type of pathology because of the racism in society. They'll say that the racism distorts people's minds so that frequently you'll get, say, a white woman attracted to a black man for the wrong reasons or for racist reasons. She may see him as inferior, that might turn her on, or she might see him as a black stud, that may turn on. All of these are racist perspectives. Or the, the black man can get attracted to the white woman because she's supposed to be superior, and he wants to be part of that, uh, whiteness. In other words, she's sort of anointing him or helping him to feel a sense of self-worth by, by, by his involvement.
I would argue with any of that, but I, at the same time, I think that you can't say that this happens with everyone. And even if it does happen, that this is pathological at its motive. Let's say, for example, white men and white women have many difficulties in, in terms of marriage. All right? I mean, there's a lot of alienation that is going on just within the white group itself. Within the total context of the white supremacy system, black men and black women have serious problems in terms of the marital relationship. Now, either we say that all of the people are sick because of, you know, various problems, or we can say, "Well, now, let us look at the total behavioral phenomena that is occurring within a social system. Let's not bother to label it, but let's begin to understand what is happening." Do you see what I'm saying? Because there are many, many problems. I wouldn't want to say that, uh, every, I, I don't think it's useful. At one level, we can say, "All right, these are pathological relationships." The problems that black men and black women have, or we can say that the problems that white men and white women have are pathological. But I don't think that, see, because once you say pathological, then which means sick, which means sick, then people who can be helped by understanding the dynamic, they're turned off because they don't want to be labeled as sick, but they may want to understand the phenomena.
Well, for purposes of analysis, let's assume, like, let's say everybody who comes to the psychiatrist doesn't want to be labeled as sick. They say, "I have a problem. I don't understand how I am relating to this other individual, and the product that we have that I don't want. Let me help me understand it so I can straighten it out." And this is, this is where I'm coming from. I don't, you know, I don't want to create a big.
At the same time, though, I, I think we can recognize, uh, certain things that I don't know if we want to call them sick, but that are, are distorted. For instance, uh, I've seen, uh, black men married to white women and essentially they hate other black people. They have sort of joined the oppressor and are actively anti-black.
And they, an expression of self-hate.
For them to marry a white woman. Other black men who are married to, to white women who remain militantly black.
Well, could a contradiction? But being militant. Let's, let's deal with this. Some of our alleged most, alleged most revolutionary blacks have white women. Now, many blacks suspect, and it's an open secret, that their militance is simply a defense mechanism so that they can deal with their, their need for a white woman. But look at it this way. Many of those so-called militants who, who are married to white women, I think it's because of the way that they have defined the problem for themselves. Many black people who, a white person will say, "Well, that person is militant because a person happens to be saying black power." They're not really talking about the overthrow of white supremacy. They're talking about "Workers of the world unite." Maybe, do you see what I'm saying? But because they are black, they're saying, "Well, okay, from, I'm saying in terms of a whole words, they're talking." You see what I'm saying? So they don't, I think, but they don't perceive contradiction because the whole struggle of black people until, I would say, until recently, has been defined as trying to get in. We want to become a part of the society, as though it is a, it is possible for people of color to become a part of the society. Now, some black behavioral scientists are saying, on the basis of having made an analysis, that the system is one of white supremacy in which none of the non-white people in the entire world, who happen to make up 91% of the total world population, none of the non-white people can actually integrate into the system of white supremacy because it is just that, maintaining white supremacy. Okay? So now, within that context, then some black people are rethinking the position. In terms of, "Now, if I am talking about the overthrow of white supremacy as a system worldwide, then what does it mean for me to not only marry, but for me to have sexual relationships with a person who, whether they are willing or not, are participating in the maintenance of white supremacy?" And some of us are taking the position that if a white person really says that they like a black person or a non-white person, then they will abstain from sex and they will abstain from marriage because they perceive also their position within the white supremacy context. Is as long as we have a system of white supremacy, then white people, when they relate to non-white people, are relating at a level of unequals. And until it's equalized, then something else is happening. Do you see what I'm saying? In other words, the non-white person who is in bed with a white person, thinking that they are bringing about a humanistic union, are really bringing about their further subjugation because they are thinking in the active sex that, "Now we are one, and now we are equal." And so when you find that those people who are in bed with white people, when they get out, like you say, they are negative. And you can make a diagnosis if you see a black person being very, very negative when they are, you know, this is in all, in all cases. I mean, you're sort of making a political.
Okay, but you're sort of making a political. But, but you have to agree, I'm saying that the act of sex is a political act. Do you see? Just like between people of blacks and whites. Every act is a political act because when people relate, they are always relating on the basis of power. Do you see what I'm saying? Whether they are aware of that or not. You can never get away from that. And so even when people of different colors are relating, the question of power is brought into play. For example, the French, in terms of maintaining colonial domination in Africa, they, Arnold Toynbee has written about this, that they made it a policy. If the black man, you send him to the UN, you know, the African who's in a colony, you give him a high school education and send him on to the university in Paris. He comes back and he says, "All right, now I'm a Frenchman, and I want to be free. I'm educated. I know as much as the colonizer. I want to be free." That you can cool him out by giving him a white woman. Do you see what I'm saying? And we see certain phenomena going on in the society today where black men who are married to white women are being given positions that black men who are not married to white women are not being given. Why? Because the white system perceives that that is a safe individual. Why? Because it is not only compromised in bed, but he is psychologically compromised. I mean, anytime you get in bed with somebody, sex is a very profound human act, and it has extreme psychological implications that spread into your, you know, what do you do in the area of economics? What do you do?
Though that, uh, if a black man goes to bed with a white woman, he has to be assuming that she's superior, or he has to feel, he doesn't have to. She is superior. Yeah. But he, suppose in his relationship with her, does he have to feel that he's coming from superior? What about she can take him any time that she wants? Bi- if she gets angry with him about the biology of it, that is that he's, he's involved in a sexual union that doesn't have, uh, political dimensions? Or, or it does have political. To him, psychologically, maybe. Maybe if I'm saying what Dr. Welsing is saying, maybe she's saying that that's not conscious. But, but the dynamic cannot be eliminated on a logical basis. I mean, on a conscious basis, you can't say that unconsciously my behavior is not determined by something that I'm not aware of. Aware. Like a lot of people say, um, all, all, all black men then got this feeling of inferiority in them. All non-white people feel inferior. See what I'm saying? All non-white people who are within the system and the dynamic and the power of the system of white supremacy, until they consciously work and struggle with themselves, and even then, are going to feel inferior because functionally we are inferior. Let's say you're a professor at Harvard. I'm a professor at Howard. Physician, psychiatrist. I take the position that we are functional inferiors, in spite of that, even compared to the white person who has a grade school graduate, uh, degree, why? Because within the political power system, they have more power to control what happens to their lives than you and I have to control in what happens to ours.
What about the fact that a lot of, a lot of black men say that they are, are going with white women and so on because they're trying to get back at the system, or they're trying to get revenge, or this is really a hostile act, and it doesn't, in fact, that they see it as a, a confrontation with the white system and not as something that they're succumbing to as an inferior person? That they're asserting, in a sense, their, their manhood, or saying they just have as much right to have a choice about the women that they want that white men used to have and still have. The white men can have white women, and they can have black women. They can have anybody they want. But black men were confined to black women, and they couldn't even have her.
Let's say, let's say this. Some black men say they're super fly. Some say they're sha. Some say that they're super nigger, and that they have power that they don't have. That's a fantasy. You see what I'm saying? We can say a lot of things. I can say, for example, "I'm a Christ, and I'm free." Does that make it a case? No, it doesn't. The proof of what is it that I can do for myself? Can I protect my children? Can I protect anything that I call mine? The ultimate answer to that is no. So that we can say a lot of things. Black men can think that they're doing a lot of things. It was not black men who said that white women could come now into the black community and start picking up whatever black man they want. The black man didn't have anything to do with that. And if the white supremacy system tomorrow morning wants to turn around and say, "All white women, come home because it's essential to maintain white supremacy," all white women will go home.
But don't you think, for instance, that psychologically, uh, if, if white women have been forbidden to black men by oppression, if the black man has access to the white woman, that that will make them feel more psychologically free? It will fool them more. Let's say, for example, if you tell me, said psychologically free. Psych-
Well, wait a minute. He didn't say functionally free. No. It's a fantasy. And then it's a psychosis. Right. In other words, if you are operating, just like they tell us in a lot of contexts, you are functioning. If you are functioning on something that is not reality, then you've had it. Okay? Now, but this is something that the white supremacy system understands. You see what I'm saying? They understand. "Now, we programmed these victims to feel that if they get a white woman, they will have, they will have it." Like a black cat told me who was graduating, uh, from graduate school at Harvard, that marrying a white woman was a part of the Harvard degree. In other words, "I'm really in," do you see what I'm saying? "Part of ascending up within." All right? Now, the system has programmed us to think that, just like it programs a black woman to say, "All right, if you have a white man, that really means that you are in." Nonsense. Do you see what I'm saying? Because white supremacy is going on, and white supremacy will go on and victimize your children and your offsprings, irrespective of what you were doing in your bedroom activity. And the white supremacist system further would like the non-white and the black man to think that his face or his penis, if you will, is equal to an M16 rifle, which is what he maintains power with.
But Francis, you don't think it's possible for a, a white woman and a, a black man to be involved in relationship as individuals without all this stuff?
No. No more than it is for a black man and a black woman to think that they have got saying all these things. In other words, when the black man and the black woman decide they are in love, you know, all those feelings that we call love, what we call love is just that historic programming, you know, what parent we were tied to and whatever dynamic was going on, and then we go and pick somebody who turns on those same feelings, and we call those feelings love. But that doesn't, just because we call it love and then glorify it, doesn't mean that we cannot understand how those feelings got programmed in that way. And so a black man and a black woman, particular people who have had particular experiences, meet on a sunny day and they say, "We are in love, and we want to go off and get married," as though white supremacy as a major dynamic in the world has disappeared. Oh, no.
But we don't, we don't have proof that most, uh, black men are programmed that way. Do we have? Nine-tenths of the people in the world controlled by white supremacy, but we don't have proof black is programmed. What does that mean? That is, we don't have the statistics to validate black men all wanting to rush after after white women.
Wait a minute. Look at, look at, let's, let's be honest. If we look at what is the dynamic that goes on in the so-called black community, or more amongst black people, what is still, you know, in the quiet recesses of our thinking, what is considered as beautiful? Still light skin and still straight hair. What does that mean? See, that just means that the black mother who trained her son, you know, just, I have a friend who says that his mother programmed him down in Oklahoma, you know, just looking out the front porch to the girl, black girl who was light-skinned, straight hair, there's a beautiful girl. To the black-skinned girl with the kinky hair, she wouldn't say anything. Do you see what I'm saying? So that, that kind of programming, this is what I'm saying, that all of this goes on involved in love. All of this goes in, is involved in love. Who is a suitable choice? What kind of woman does a professional man marry? You see, you can just survey. All we have to do is look at the phenomena of the social laboratory, that's true, and say, "Well, who are the people that particular people pick to marry?" And we can understand that the dynamic of white supremacy is intact, even when a black man and black woman are in bed. I talked to black men who said when they're in bed with black women, they're thinking about door stay.
Oh, really?
I, Dr. Bujan, you must admit, you must admit that there are some black men. Nothing to be ashamed. We have got to stop being exclusively.
Don't like any female who is not white. Now, I'm sure that there, you would have to have one, one constant, wouldn't you? Yeah. I, you know, if, if a man who is black doesn't even look at a black woman and looks at nothing but white women, then isn't that significant? Wouldn't that be significant enough to be non-significant?
But see, I, I don't know if we can relate it all, uh, as clearly to sort of political, you know, the white supremacy. For instance, let, let me take it down to a personal level. Suppose something is operating like the, uh, say the, uh, the black man and his, his relationship to his black mother or to his black father, uh, where he develops blocks against, uh, uh, black women, and then he generalizes it all to, to other black women, and then he gets involved with a white woman. Now, that doesn't mean that he's necessarily indulging in any form of white supremacy. Necessarily white supremacy. You can't assume that his re- of his, his black mother is because she's black. He may be rejecting her for all sorts of other. Let's go down and look at that. Let us look at, and the white woman is just happens to be there where he. But this is, this is, this is very common phenomena amongst our people.
May I interrupt you? Uh, we're going to continue, uh, this next week, and we don't want to lose it. Uh, next week, we're going to continue part two of Black Man, White Woman. And a couple of things we're going to discuss with our same panelists will be why so many prominent blacks marry white men, and why so many prominent black females, in particular, marry white men. Begin this second part of what was a very exciting first part. I'd like to throw the question out: What has the increase in relationships between black men and white women done to the relationship between black men and white women? I, in black men and black, black women?
Well, I think first, we should say that, you know, there's, there's interracial marriages that take place between black women and white men too. And that that's a whole area because, uh, it seems that black men always get the focus of the interest and the attack, which is interesting because, I think, the society, white supremacy has been, been concerned mostly with the, uh, uh, black man, white woman. So I think that's the, the reverse of that, the white man and the black woman, uh, also is a subject. There's no question. Seems to me that black women, uh, from what I can see all over, very, very upset and threatened, uh, by the growing relationships between black men and white women, and that they, they, they oppose it. Now, from the black man's standpoint, I hear a lot of, uh, brothers say over and over again that, first it was the white man who told them they couldn't go out with white women. Now it's mainly the black woman who's telling them that they can't go out with, uh, white women. So that they still feel oppressed. Now, for whatever that's worth, I think that's, uh, an important, an important point. Psychologically for the black man, because is the black woman in this, is she more concerned, uh, with her control over black men, see? Or is she concerned with white supremacy and interracial relationships, uh, uh, in general? Because if black women are concerned in general, then they should attack just as much, I think, the white man, black woman combination. Hasn't the black woman, to some extent, because the statistics have reversed the statistics, uh, uh, for, uh, black women, white men has decreased by the same percentage that these statistics for black men, white women has increased. So obviously the black woman has more cause for concern at this point.
Well, maybe she has more awareness, more consciousness, more cause for concern. Maybe her concern is not due to the fact she's threatened. Maybe her concern is due to the fact that she's just politically more sophisticated and more conscious of what black people ultimately may have to do, and that is unify themselves.
Let, let me add this, that I think that the black woman's concern, um, is related to, let's say, perhaps her survival as a woman or her functioning as a woman. That, um, and hopefully, I hope it's beyond that, the change in the statistics. But I think that, let us say, black men after the age of 15 are decreased in the population relative to the number of black women. Where are they? They're in Vietnam, they're imprisoned, and they're dying from various causes at earlier ages. And white men, comparably so. That, let's say, their number of women, black women who are going without adequate spouses or male partners to relate to. So probably instinctively, black women are concerned about that. Historically, white men have not been interested in black or other non-white women, be they Japanese, Chinese, Indian, or whatever. They have been interested in sexually exploiting black women, but not really taking them to the altar, let's say, to marry them or to really fully respect them. So perhaps black women are responding to that. But I think that what is key is really what is happening to blacks. Because I see the thrust of white women, uh, sexually aggressing against the black man, or from the other side, the thrust of the white man sexually aggressing against the, uh, black woman. That this produces a division between black men and black women that is going to contribute significantly to, if you want to call it, genocide of black people. In other words, if you heighten the alienation between black men and black.
Part of the organization, right?
It will, it, in other words, we talk about unity at a political organization level as being one kind of unity, but there is another kind of unity, uh, that is much more fundamental, and that is the unity within the family unit itself. And we have been denied the opportunity to really have functioning family units since the, you know, the really onset of.
Talk about, let me ask one question. Let's talk about the contemporary family unit of an interracial couple in today's American society. We're in the black community, we have to admit that the black community is much more nationalistic, or very nationalistic, and that the black community is not receptive as it once was to interracial groups. The white community, I would say, has moved to the right to a very, very great extent.
You mean, seemingly to the left? You mean to be more receptive too?
No, more reactionary to interracial couples. I'm talking about, I'm talking about the middle America. I'm not talking about a few, uh, New York sophisticated interracial couples or San Francisco. These, I think, are just islands, uh, are surrounded by.
I would disagree. Tony, I would say that white people have moved to accept black men and white women to a greater degree than has ever been evidenced in this area of the world, and that is across the board. And I would say that there's a reason for this. They are being conditioned by the kinds of movies that are being made these days, you know, where you have black men and white women engaging in sex on the screen, or other kinds of relationships. At the white community, in other words, those people who are responsible for getting the masses of white people to do those things that are necessary to maintain white supremacy, are conditioning them to accept this phenomena. Do you see? Because they understand that the black man really is being psyched out of position. He is being psyched to think when he asked for black power and liberation, and they said, "No, we're not going to give you power, but here, we will give you the white woman." And the black man was faked out of position, just like many people are faked out of position. You say, "Black power." I'll give you a $15,000 job. You don't have power. You don't have self-determination, but you have a program or a grant. Do you see what I'm saying? In other words, you ask for this, but I give you this because you really don't know what you want. Well, then, are you saying, or you really know what constitutes power? Or you really don't know what is the dynamic of the system? A lot of people think that the dynamic of the system is money. Money is not the dynamic of the system. White supremacy, or the maintaining of white power throughout the world, when whites are outnumbered 9 to 1 by non-white people, is the name of the game. Color is the name of the game. But we don't, I say that across the board and around the world, non-white people have not understood the significance of the color dynamic and how white people have taken something that they are very intimately concerned about. I say that the fact that they cannot produce color, that they have decided that they're going to dominate everybody else who has this genetic capacity, who can genetically annihilate them. You see, which comes, "one drop of black blood makes you black." That is a statement of the genetic dominance of the capacity to produce color over the inability to produce color.
And occasionally, you, you'll find, um, I guess Fran has encountered this too. You'll find white women who have a preoccupation and desire to have, uh, black babies. And white men have a desire to create children.
Well, let's talk about the first. Let's talk about the, the obsession, if I may use that word, on the part of a white woman to have a black baby. Now, what would the psychological dynamics be in a case such as that?
Well, I, I think, you know, it's hard to tell, tell without really just picking an individual case. But it may go ahead.
Franc?
Can you, can you have you ever had a case? I know black psychiatrists who say that white women, white women don't say this to white, have black babies, but white women will say this to a black psychotherapist, "I want to have a black baby." I say, "Why?" Because white people, if we look at the skin color, white, white is the genetic inability to produce color. It is a genetic deficiency state. It is a form of albinism. It has, has never been discussed in this way, but genetically, biologically, this is what it is. White people have not, they don't have the capacity to produce color. They wish they could. This is why they spend a lot of time suntanning, makeup, all of that is trying to give color to colorless skins. Okay? Now, because they have this deep psychological need, they are the only people in the world, they are the minority in the world who cannot produce color. And so they can't produce. They can't make it on their own. They try to suntan. And then at the sexual level, they have attractions to people who can give them the illusion that they have participated in the production of color. So the white man has gone all over the entire world having sexual relations with every group of non-white women that he meets. The white woman, when she has been allowed to sexually aggress towards men of color, and so then she, you know, she gives vent verbally to that fantasy. "I want to have a product of color because this is the one thing that I can't."
Fris, how much is color the issue?
I think, I think you move. I know that I. Okay, but what I'm trying to do is bring another element that is there's also, I've seen in some of these women a desire sort of to play a noble role or a, a really super-humanistic one. That is, they're going to, they want the world to be color blind. So they want to get involved in producing, uh, you know, black children, raising.
If they want the world to be color blind, what is the focus on color all about? If the world is color blind, what is the point of talking about this? I mean, this is some of their rationale. What I'm saying, I don't think, I think that some of it is political in their minds. That is, the time that the Civil Rights Movement was talking about black and white together, and that was a political position that people almost felt forced to have interracial relationships, and that that was considered to be the forr of for to have intercial rel.
Well, may I ask the question? Both blacks and whites. May I ask the question? Both involved. You did quite a number of investigative studies. I remember reading one in Jet magazine on the interracial relationships in the South during the Civil Rights movement. Is that correct?
Now, wasn't there, or was there, or is there a phenomenon of black leaders and white women?
Well, I, I don't know if it's a phenomenon. Let me say that I would say a lot of the black leaders, uh, and the rank and file were involved with white women. There were also a lot of white men involved with with black women. But I think the, the main group that is the largest group involved were black men with white women. And that this created a lot of problems. And I think it had a lot to do with the development of the black consciousness movement.
Didn't have a lot to what they have to do with it? Wait a minute. See, there are people, people, for example, who are looking at the thing that has cut significantly into the quest for black power that went on in the 60s, has been the unleashing of white women and saying that now, "You go out and have relationships with a black man to cool him out." Terms of all right. So that, so that let's say, for example, the white woman, if you talk to women who are the furthest left, white women who are in the women's liberation movement, peace movement, or any anti-war movement, if you say, "Look, what about eliminating white supremacy as a system?" They have no use for that. They have no use even for the black man outside of the context.
I know a minute. Well, it has been my experience, maybe yours is different. It has been my experience that white women will talk about in the war in Vietnam. When you say, "Well, that's a war to maintain white supremacy," then they, they don't want to have any truck with looking at it in that way. When you say, "Well, look, the way that we have analyzed the problem is, it's not a question of who has the money. It's a question of an established system to maintain white power, and that this is what is raising havoc all over the world for the vast majority of people." Do you want to eliminate that? No, because the white woman understands that the black man is not even going to feel towards her as he does unless there's white supremacy, and unless he feels in his powerless position that he is gaining power by making an alliance, be it marital, sexual, whatever kind of alliance.
Yeah, I think that they, uh, uh, that they feel that, maybe unconsciously. But there was no question in my mind that with a lot of the, the white female workers in the movement, even though they were involved with, uh, black men and, uh, sometimes married to them, that a lot of them had a lot of racist ideas and feelings. That is, frequently, uh, the attention of the black men made them feel very special. He, you call it the African queen, or the white African, the white African queen, heightened their sense of, of feeling special. Attention they couldn't normally get from a white. The old thing about white women frequently who were unattractive who came into the black community because the black men them but was beautiful. But the black men thought she was beautiful. And that's still operating frequently, sometimes in subtle ways. So that you can sometimes get, uh, I'm not saying this is true of all white women or anyone, but this is an example. You can get a very pretty white woman sometimes who internally thinks she's no good, why? Because a lot of reasons get attracted to, uh, to, uh, black men. See, see, white women are asking for liberation. They are asking for self-respect from their own men. Okay? Because a white man not only had to be dominant to all people of color, he also had to dominate his own woman in the process. And so white women are saying, "We want to be liberated," or "We want to make ourselves equal to you." You see?
I think that that is a major dialogue that is going on. The white woman is saying she wants to want to rid themselves of of the racism. Isn't this important, particularly when they're raising their children? I mean, no, they don't want to rid themselves of privilege, which you. And this is why there was a study done recently where white women are still teaching three-year-old, two-year-old white children that it's no good to be black, and that black people are, and this and that and the other. But what about the white parent of a black child? I mean, that white parent would have a vested interest in at least trying to deal with their racism so that they will raise unscarred. You would think that. Now, all of us know, you know, people from interracial homes. I mean, they're not all, you know, brainwashed into being white. No, they can't be brainwashed into being white because they're all of them have marks of being non-white products. Either their hair is curled, their lips are broad, their nose are broad, or their, you know, their skin is dark. Black genetic material is always going to leave its mark, and the children are always non-white. And the children that I have seen, many of these children have more hang-ups about not being white, you see, than black children who may be the same hue, you see, because they are caught in that dynamic of a parent on the one side, a white parent who still has not given up their desire to be dominant as a white person, and the black parent, be they male or female, who when they went into that alliance, went into that alliance hoping that they would somehow be in the position of an acceptable one. Now, after they had devalued themselves. So that the child is, I don't know if, I don't know if.
Well, she just, for purposes of conversation, I mean, nobody can say all of anything. I know, but it's important that if we're talking about it, it makes it seem as if these are, let's look at this way. Non-white children who have had white parents. All of us, everybody in this little circle has had some white inter-tappings into their genetic style. Do you see what I'm saying? Now, the vast majority of non-white people in this area of the world have had white inter-tappings. So that it really is not significantly different.
What happens actually in the White House itself? The dynamic is still the same. So that you have light-skinned, dark people feeling devalued because they have color. Whether it occurs in some illegal alliance of a white man having something to do with a black woman on 14th Street in Washington D.C., or in Mississippi somewhere, or in Harlem, New York, or involved too.
But what I'm saying is that, see, we cannot take any of this out from what is happening at a global level. See, one, one thing that has happened in psychiatry that we have been tied up with somebody by the name of Sigmund Freud, who I'm sure made some very significant contributions in terms of looking at human behavior or behavior, some significant contributions. But he got tied up in talking about behavior comes from within the individual and only indirectly from what is happening outside of the individual. So he called it the sexual instinct, okay?
But there are other people, fortunately now, who are coming along. We have, have you know, I don't, we're not completely controlled, you know, by the externals. And I would like to think that we have some power over determining and understanding processes that, that, that affect us. I don't, I don't consider myself a complete sort of robot who's affected by racism and no understanding. I think a lot of people like that, both some whites, but not a lot of them, and a lot of black people can understand or feel what's going on. And I think that's why you get some, some black men who are very aware about a lot of racial things in their blackness, who may get involved in those situations, particularly in the past. And you have some who on the opposite extreme. But it's not like we're all, yeah, we would never resolve that very deep psychiatric problem.
But I would like to at least, while we have a few minutes, discuss one very important point. And that is the significant phenomenon, and Dr. Pan, I'm sure you will agree with us in an overgeneralized way this time, the significant phenomenon of well-known, I will not make well-known synonymous with prominent black women, who particularly, uh, entertainer, uh, professional entertainers, who consistently marry white men in large numbers, and one white man after the other. And I would like to know from either or both of you how you view this dynamic.
I say that they're not marrying the men, the white men are marrying them, okay? And I think, I think that is, I think that that is, well, if, if they continually are selective, well, let's put it this way. Number one, that as I said earlier, that there is an extreme alienation going on between the black man and the black woman. In other words, this same conversation really could be discussing the alienation between the black man and black woman that allows for the significant phenomena of black man, white woman that we see. All right? Because there is that alienation, then black women and black men all across the economic board, no matter whether they're on welfare, whether they're making, you know, $150,000 a year, are probably as an entertainer, are having problems in terms of their relationships with each other.
Now, some women who, you know, they may be in the limelight, they may be considered beautiful, a star, or something like that. All right? Uh, they have been frustrated in many of their relationships. If you take all of those entertainers, if they start telling you that they started out relating to black men and had a number of kinds of problems, and so now, well, I don't want to say you didn't, no, you didn't fail us. You didn't fail us. The white supremacy system is just being. Black men will say that too about about black women, that black women have let them down. Well, you see what I'm saying? It's just like the Julia syndrome, you know, Diahann Carroll and the Julia. Black women have been programmed via TV and everything else. You don't need a black man, you just need a white man to give you a job. At the same time, they're saying to the black man, you don't want a Sapphire, she's too argumentative, she talks too much. You see what I'm saying? What you need is a white woman.
Now, what does this produce? This produces maintenance of white supremacy. Why? Because you have divided and conquered the black man from the black woman, just like you divide and conquer non-white people. To make this point, if that's true, but I still must return to the fact, and I don't think we can lose this statistic, that there is a decline on the part of black women in general in interracial relationships. But there continues to be a significant increase among black women and white men when the black woman is a prominent entertainer. Tony, okay? See, this, I'm isolating, and we must address ourselves. I'm isolating that group of black women. Part of, part of, of this, I've talked to people about this in, uh, show business. One of the explanations I give, you can take it or leave it, is that in the entertainment field, where these women are most of the time, that there are very few prominent black men who have power. Black men aren't the producers, they aren't directors, they aren't the people putting up the money, they aren't the stage managers. That all of these people in that industry, that the strong, dominant, powerful men are white.
Are you saying that the black woman, in order to be successful in that field, must marry one of those white men? No, I think that that's part of the phenomenon. Many black women in the entertainment do not marry white men and they are still successful. So wouldn't that not contradict? They're coming in in constant contact with these types of white men in the bus. Have look at it this way, and starlets frequently marry men with power, okay? White actress, white entertaining. To your theme, wouldn't the variable then be the individual? No. Look, there are not a lot of black men who are earning that same salary, okay? And when, because even at the lower level, black men and black women have problems because the white supremacy society said it'll be easier for a black woman to make a particular salary. Black women can get a job easier than a black man any day, and that has caused...
Huh? I don't think that's true. Well, just asking the community, asking the community, because a black woman could be a domestic worker when her husband couldn't even work. Yeah, that's... But I think it's shifting. That's... Well, it may be gradually shifting. I don't know about that. Looking at the current unemployment statistics, okay? But I'm saying that that has been a sore point within the black family unit for a long, long time. And that's why somebody like Moynihan can come out and talk about matriarchal family structure. Why? Because the white supremacy society said, well, we'll let her make more money because it's really important to keep him down. All right? So this is what they did.
Now, when you get to the level where the stars are and the income, the fear in the incomes that they're making, that number one, you have many black men who are not making comparable salaries. And when they are making comparable salaries, because of the dynamic that goes along with that salary, then he wants a white woman. So who's available for her? Because we have one black behavioral scientist who says, when a black man is poor, he wants a job. When he gets a job, he wants luxuries. And when he gets luxuries, he wants a white woman. Now, that is the dynamic that is produced. You see, saying it's not castigating the black man, it's saying this is what the white supremacy society is programming, right?
But consistently, and we have got to keep, Dr. You, you have made, you have made the point and a very strong premise that, uh, the, the black man is the real fear of a political system based on white supremacy. Why? I'll ask why the black man? Why is this system so afraid of the black man? Know what black, the reason for interracial relation, you know what black power means? Black power means genetic power. The black man can annihilate the white man, you know, with his phallus. The white man has to build a missile to annihilate people of color. By that, I mean this, that I think that the fundamental thing that is frightening white men, and has frightened them since they were created as genetic mutations, is that they, their appearance can be annihilated by the black man, especially the man who can create the most color, which is the black man in the whole human family. And that is the individual who has to be made inferior, and who has to be controlled, and has to be destroyed at the fundamental level of genetics.
Then we can look at the next level in terms of numbers. That non-white people, if they outnumber white people nine to one in the world, then the white man all over the world has got to say, now we have got to keep these people down. And you keep a people down by controlling their men, women. That's why they... I think that's true. I think that's, that's true. That all of the policies that they had in repression of blacks directed toward the black man's access to the white woman, because then he could, that way he could destroy white, white people eventually by making all people of color. Whereas a white man, his access to the black woman produced children of color, but they were black children. No, the white woman is that, all of the children of black and white are non-white, whether it's a male or whether it's a male, male white or the female white, the children, what the children are all, all brown. But if he, if he, uh, that's why they wanted to protect the white woman against a black man, not to protect her, to control the sexual activity of the black man, you see what I'm saying?
Relating to white, that's important. In other words, the, the genetic material of non-white men in the world has to be controlled. If, if we don't want the disappearance of white people. And white people, even though they don't like the fact of skin whiteness, prove their quest for sun. Okay? Even though they have psyched themselves into the position that white is beautiful, although they don't really believe it, then they don't want white appearance to be annihilated because now you have a worldwide system that's 500 years old of white domination and white privilege control.
Black people up. Thank you. Thank you very much for, uh, a very, very interesting, uh, interview and some comments. We hope to have, uh, Dr. Welling back on a future Black Journal program discussing her very phenomenal genetic theory called The Crest Theory. Great.
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