Transcription
Strange. So, what advice can you give to people who are looking to have a strong and meaningful and lasting relationship with someone?
Well, the first thing is to decide if that is really what you want. Is that no? Where do you think to say, "I don't, I don't, I want to be single forever"? Do you think that's a realistic or fair assessment of oneself?
Um, I think that that's, for most people, a pathway to insanity. Yeah. You know, the psychoanalysts used to think that, and we all think this way in some ways, that you're saying because you're well-put-together in your psyche, is well-structured, right? It's internal somehow, inside your head. But, and there's some truth in that, but here's a, here's a more accurate viewpoint. I think you outsource most of your sanity because it's too complicated. And so what you do is, your parents raised you to be vaguely acceptable to other people, and then you're surrounded by other people your whole life. And then every time you go off the rails a little bit, even just a little bit, people signal to you. Like, you make a joke, it's not that funny, and people don't laugh. And you think, "Oh, you know, I should probably rethink my sense of humor a little bit." Or pay more attention. Or you tell a rambling story and you notice that everyone's like, lost in the distance. Okay. So if you're civilized enough so that people don't shun you, and you have people around you, then they're gonna be always telling you how to not be too insane. Well, if you're alone, you drift. You drift, right? You know, and you'll drift in the direction of your biggest weakness. And so, you know, there are some people, maybe they're introverted and disagreeable, they're, they're not cut out for a lot of social contact. But we're social animals, man, right to the core. And it's a sub-optimal solution for, for the vast majority of people.
Mm-hmm. I think that people are having a harder time finding, like, let's call them more permanent relationships, is because it's become increasingly easy to have fleeting, casual sexual relationships. I mean, there's a revolution, right? It's a revolution in sexual behavior. And it's certainly not obvious that it's a, what is it, a social thing? Is it just technology? Is this what people want to be doing? Because you think, you think too easy. Yeah, in some ways. But the technology has enabled this fleeting sexual. Oh, definitely. Okay. Definitely. And, and that's, but we don't want to underestimate how radical a technology that is, especially, especially for men. I do feel that deep down that all these people, men and women alike, are always longing for something more meaningful.
Well, I think, I think that that's generally the case. I mean, you know, part of the reason for a relationship is sexual contact, obviously. Well, that's, you don't necessarily need a relationship for that. But that's not the reason to, to be with someone. The reason to be with someone, when there's a lot of them, so one is, well, kids. Kids who have two parents do far better, period. The readout on that is crystal clear. It doesn't mean that there aren't many single parents who struggle to do a wonderful job. That's not the same thing. It's an average issue. So you need, plus it's a lot of work to have kids. You know, you kind of need to divide up the labor, especially in the first year or two. You know, 'cause a woman is completely overwhelmed in the first year, and she needs somebody around to take care of her while she's taking care of the kid, fundamentally. Or at least that's the way it looks to me. So, so there's that. You need the stable basis for children, and it takes them a long time to mature, and they need to learn that relationships are trustworthy, right? So there's utility and stability there. But then also, you kind of want to tangle your life together with someone, you know, because you have someone to, well, it's like two ropes that are tangled together, it's stronger, especially during times of weakness. And you have two brains instead of one, and that actually turns out to be really helpful when things are complicated. And, and it builds a solidity into your life and a reality into your life to have someone who's along with you on this very long voyage. And so I think that deepens your life in a way that isn't really possible with a fragmentary relationship as a single person. Definitely.
And then there's more to it than that. It's like, I think of wrestling. There's this scene in the Old Testament where Jacob wrestles with an angel. He's wrestling with God, actually, which is quite an interesting. That's what Israel means, right? Wrestling with God. Yeah. That just blew me away when I learned it. It so does that the true people are those who wrestle with God? Yeah. It's not belief, exactly. It's a whole different thing, man. It's a whole different thing. And so, like, well, it did, from from the work I did in the last couple of months looking at this, and I looked into it quite deeply, it does mean wrestling, essentially. And it does derive from that scene in the Old Testament where Jacob wrestles with God. That's when he gets the name Israel. And his hip is dislocated, right? Permanently. He has a permanent limp after that. It's no joke. But I think of marriage the same way. Like, people think, "Well, they lived happily ever after." It's like, that's no way you want in a marriage. You want someone to contend with, you know? Because you learn through that wrestling, you know, like you learn where you're an idiot and where you should stop being. And, and vice versa. There's a, that's the spiritual aspect of marriage. It's, it's the fact that you have to contend with someone under all sorts of circumstances. Theoretically, it's a, what would you say? It's a, it's a manner of promoting psychological, or you could say spiritual growth. And it's genuine. You know, that's why marriage is a sacrament in most human communities, right? It's, it's stamped both by the state and by the sacred authorities because it's not just a physiological union. That's what animals do. And I mean, there's nothing wrong with the physiological union, but it has to be placed in the context of everything else a human being is. And I do think it's dreadful for people not to have that.
And do you think it's, it's become harder for people to have meaningful, lasting relationships, or has it always been desired? I feel like, I thank God that I'm not dating now because I feel like it must be, it seems like it's miserable out there right now.
Well, yeah, it's a, try to meet people. It is hard for, although what you don't, it's easier to meet people because there's more ways of meeting them, right? But the ways of meeting them are more shallow. My, in my clinical practice, I would say that the rise of the internet dating option has actually overall been good for people who are looking for a partner. Now, there is some speculation and some evidence that it lowers the transaction price of separation and divorce, you know, because one of the reasons you don't separate or you don't get divorced is like, "Well, you're gonna find someone else." And if it's easier to find someone else, then perhaps you're more tempted to sever the relationship. So maybe you lose in one place where you gain in the other. But I think there are different kinds of hard that it is. You know, it's hard for couples to figure out how to manage two careers. It's hard for women to figure out how to get educated and get their career launched at the same time that they're finding a partner and having kids, because women have this tight timeframe, you know? I mean, they've got to get a lot done by the time they're mid-30s, for sure. And so it's compared, it's not much time, you know? It's like 15 years, really, from the time you're an adult. That's, you better get at it. It's not very long, right? So I think there are new challenges that have arisen that weren't there for previous generations. But previous generations had it hard in other ways. That's so true. Yeah.
Like, to understand how to make a relationship work, like it's not just magically. You need to kind of put in the work to make it work. It's hard. Compromise, a lot of times on that. If you live by yourself, you can do everything the way you would want. Yeah. If you live with someone else, then there's compromises to make. Yes. In the long picture, it's better for you.
Well, that's, that's it. That's it. There's sacrifices to be made in the short term, you know? And I mean, people have to. The effort issue is like, well, when you're in love with someone, you're gonna organize your schedule and make them a priority. And, you know, that's, in some ways, a fleeting state, although it's not necessarily as fleeting as people think it is. But whatever, it's obviously a priority. Then you get married, and you know, you kind of get accustomed to having each other around, and then everything else is more important, and the relationship drifts to the bottom. And then people get dissatisfied and they start looking for excitement and adventure. Otherwise, well, you can't do that. You have to prioritize the relationship. Like, my observation clinically has been for a couple to maintain their relationship without it deteriorating, they have to spend 90 minutes a week together talking about their lives, about how the house is run, about what they've all been doing to keep their stories caught up, right? That's not really even that much. John, it's not that much. Yeah. But, and which is a good thing. You can't actually do it. And then they need to spend at least one time having a date, and two is better. One is necessary, two is better. You can't aim for a lot more than that because, you know, life is very busy. And yeah, if it's going to be sustainable, it has to be realistic. But they need to make time for each other twice a week and stand talk, like in a non-romantic way, just practically about the domestic economy and about everything that's going on. And that keeps people tied to each other and updated. And so that's sort of your minimal commitment level if you don't want things to deteriorate.