Transcription
Today's episode with Esther Perell is one of the best First Dates we've ever had. And after you listen, we want you to have a date with her too. She's going on her first US tour, "An Evening with Esther Perell: The Future of Relationships, Love, and Desire." And we're giving away two tickets. Head to our Instagram after the episode to enter for a chance to win.
Hello and welcome back to the Sunday Special episode of the U UP podcast. I'm Jordana Abraham, and I am Jared Freed.
It is so good to be back here with you, Jordana. But it is especially good to be here with you because we have a very, very special guest, a dream booking for the show. Do you want to introduce them?
Yes. Uh, it is, I am so excited to introduce Esther Perell. Um, I'm such a big fan. I've been following everything you do for so many years. So, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you.
It's a pleasure for me to be here. I think you are maybe like the, you know, I, I was telling you how excited I was for you to be on the show, and you were like, "Why?" And I was like, um, I think it, I think you're just like the most insightful person that I've ever heard speak about relationships. Whether you're writing or you're, you're speaking, you have a podcast, "Where Should We Begin?" that's, you know, kind of like live couples therapy, which is always so fascinating to listen to. And just all of your insights on relationships and, um, and why they work and why they don't work is just so insightful and interesting to me. So I'm very, very excited, excited to have you here.
I feel like I'm on a first date.
Yes, yes. Hopefully, we'll have a second date at some point, too.
Yes. You know, the first date is only, is very important in what it leads to, not just on its own.
That's true. We are so, um, yeah, we, we hope so too. We hope this leads to a long-lasting relationship between us. Esther, I, I got to ask, what took us so long? Now, I'll be, I'll be the bad guy. What's going on? What PR agent do I have to yell at that took you so long to come on this show, one of the leading dating podcasts that's out there? Betches, a huge, multi-million dollar corporation. What happened?
And what if we actually never answer this question? What if it becomes part of the mystery of our relationship?
I love, okay, I love it. Like, how come I didn't meet you before?
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny. I feel like you're like my dad being like, "Why haven't you proposed yet? What's the, what's going on?" No, but, you know, sometimes in the relationship, they say, "Why didn't we meet before?" It's like, because we met then, and life didn't bring us together. And that is something that we will remain a part of the mystery. And then with the appreciation for the day we finally did meet, rather than looking for a reason that kind of is very boring.
No, Esther, you're like a guy who's avoided marriage for like, been in like a five-year relationship and doesn't want to get engaged. You're really good at this.
It's like, I've learned from the best.
Jared, I'm sure you have. But I mean, it's funny, just on that note, I think, um, of you saying that when you're talking about, you know, we're looking for answers for why. Like, I feel like there's so many people who feel like they can't move on from relationships until they have this, this idea of closure. And even, it's funny, even just the dynamic of trying to get you on this show, like, I feel like the, the fact that maybe in my mind it was like, "Oh, you didn't want me. You didn't want to be here." It made me want you more. Whereas for other people, they might be like, you know, thinking about it differently. Um, but I, I think there that is a dynamic in a lot of romantic relationships where you have these people. I mean, I don't know if you've talked about this a lot, but we've talked about like these situationship kind of relationships where it feels so hard to move on from someone who's giving you all these signals and clues that they're not necessarily interested in you. Why do you think it is so hard for some people? Because some people, when when people are being elusive, are like, not interested, and those people, I feel like are in healthier relationships. Um, but other people are sort of almost like more turned on by the person not wanting them.
Yes. But if you know what happens sometimes is we, we kind of say, "Okay, and why are you able to survive on breadcrumbs?" Right? And and you just, these nibbles, and you think that that's going to feed you and that's going to satiate you, and it doesn't. So why do you keep going after something that you can't have? Because this thing is also functioning on a system of intermittent reinforcement. Every time you're moving away a little bit, the other person finally reacts and comes and gives you a bigger piece of bread. So it's a dance. It's not just that there is one person pursuing and one person distancing or withholding. It's that when the pursuer stops for a moment, then the distancer reestablishes the status quo. We call this in relationships, my friend, Terri Real calls it stable ambiguity. Stable ambiguity. It's stable, so this thing exists, but it's ambiguous. And it lives under not too much commitment so as not to lose your freedom, and just enough consistency so as to think that you have the framing of what is called the relationship. Neither here nor there. Not enough maturity to really invest in the intimacy, but also not enough maturity to actually want to be alone. And this in-between state is extremely appealing at this moment, to the point where we gave it the name situationship.
Right. I mean, that's a very empathetic look at what a situationship is. You give me the, the non-empathic version, Jared.
Well, I, I think when you explain it that way, I go, I'm sitting here going, "Yep, you, you nailed it." I, I hear what you're saying. I understand it. I feel it within myself in relationships I've had in the past, in relationships I have, you know, currently. Now, do you find that when you give this explanation, that there's a group that wants to vilify you for just explaining it? Do you feel that a little bit? Do you get angered by that? Do you feel frustrated by that?
You know, actually, no. Because part of what I try to do is I take situations that people would love to see as simple, and I actually describe that they are more complex. And then I simplify the complexity so that everybody understands it. Everybody understands the less empathic view, which is that at this moment, we're a little bit in a, a time type of emotional capitalism, as Eva Illouz calls it, where you are basically turning people into products, and you're dealing constantly with the idea that you can commodify it and figure out, you know, "Can I do better?" You know, "Is this good enough?" And you forsake the good because you're looking for the perfect, and the perfect doesn't come. And so you're just sitting there around and around. What I do tell the person who breadcrumbs is, it's a confrontation. It's actually not nearly that empathic. It's like, you know, "You want somebody there whenever you need it, but you don't really want to give anything." And you're constantly talking about, "I haven't found the right person yet." And my question to you is, "What kind of person have you been so far so that I haven't found the right person?" Is the, the product? Yeah, I'm shopping and I'm looking to see, you know, "What's the best thing on the shelf?" Which, who am I? And who am I bringing to the occasion? Is an, is an experience of accountability. And that's a very different story. So I can say the same thing, and the tone will tell you what I mean. If it's a confrontation, or if it's an empathic connection, it can go in both directions. But here's the thing. I think that what people look for in what I do is a different way of of thinking, not just doing things on the presumption that these, uh, situations are very easy. If relationship dilemmas were simple, situationships and everything else, we wouldn't have to give the same advice every month in every magazine on page 108. We would have learned it the first time. But it's not because relationships are freaking complicated.
You're speaking our language. I mean, this is what we've talked about on this podcast for years, years now. That, you know, it's going to be, it's not going to be screaming, "Yas Queen!" at you to tell you how wonderful you are. This is a tough thing. This is nuanced and complex. Right? And one of the things, um, sorry, I wanted to, to ask you about was, you know, you, I, I was listening to you on a different show, and you were talking about this concept of like, what's, what's erotic? And what, what do you, what sustains a long-term relationship? And one of the things you were talking about was like, that to want someone is erotic, but to need someone is more about love, and it's not, that's like not hot. Um, it's only, it's kind of, it's, you feel more attracted to someone, more interested to in someone when you feel like they're in their element and they don't need you. But you, but you feel, but part of, but part of needing someone is loving them. So it's kind of like, I, I wonder, in a, in a relationship, what are you supposed to do there to maintain the, like, lust and the eroticism while also needing your, your needs met of being a, feeling safe? How do you balance those two things?
Right. This is the, it's, for me, is one of the central questions. It's why I wrote my book, "Meeting in Captivity." It was really to understand that, how do we reconcile our need for security, for dependability, for stability, and our need for novelty and mystery and change and er, and eros? And it's, it's really not just a problem that you solve, huh? It's, as I love to say, it's a paradox that you manage. So why is, why, how did I come to this idea that, you know, there is a, a difference between wanting and needing? Desire is about wanting. In love, you can allow yourself to need. So love comes with worry, with a sense of responsibility for the well-being of the other, with caretaking. It's that sense of need that I'm talking about. And when your partner needs you, you respond lovingly, with caretaking, with attention, with protection. But in order to let go sexually, in order to experience desire, in order to want a person, it is actually when they don't need you. Because in that space between you and them lies the erotic. The question I've taken around the globe was this: "When do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?" And all over the world, people would start with, "First on is when they are in their element, when they are radiant, when they're doing their thing, when they're excelling at something." Meaning, when they're self-sufficient. When I can admire them. When I want to reach out to them. And that energy is that erotic energy. It's not when they are. And, and if somebody says, "I am drawn to my partner when they're vulnerable," it's because they usually are not. And I get to see a side of them that I don't typically have access to. If they're always vulnerable, then I enter into a more caretaking, parental role. And that lives on another island than the desire, the erotic, and the sexual intensity. That's really how this plays out. Basically, how do you do it? You want to know how you do it? People's neediness is the, is a real boner killer, is what you're saying. It calls a different side of you. If you look at it like that, and you say, "What, what it kills?" I say, "It opens up your heart." If your partner is not well, if they're ill, if they're, you know, gasping for breath, if they're, if they're going through a challenging transition, you want to be, you want to be there for them. You care for them. You want to lift them up. But it's not necessarily a time when you're going to be the most playful, the most mischievous, the most curious, the most flirtatious. That's not where they're at. So I don't like to say it kills desire. I like to say it calls other parts of what live inside of us. Desire is one of them. Love is another one. Caretaking is yet another. But if you're not working on it, you know, that's where it comes back to, I guess, when you're talking about the paradox that it needs to be managed. You know, you can't have it all one way. Can't all be caretaker, is that what you're saying?
Yeah. If it becomes all about security, caretaking, familiarity, it can also quickly become about routine. And it can be a very nice, affectionate bonding, but it's a very different energy. What maintains a spark is your ability to take risks together, to have new experiences, not familiar experiences that you enjoy. That builds friendship. But what builds excitement is to discover new things about each other and ourselves together. It's about being playful. It's about being curious. It's about not assuming that you already know the person who is next to you, because we actually never do. If we remain curious, we'll always discover something else. That spark.
What, so, you know, if someone's looking for an actionable item, if you're talking to someone who's in a relationship right now and they're like, "I want to be curious." What would be a good first way to be curious? Like, what's a good first question to, to, to simplify it? Because everything you're saying, I'm sure everyone's listening going, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. I want to be curious. I want to be that person. How do I?" Is there a good first question that gets us on the road to curiosity? Is there something that I'm going to give you 10 questions?
And yes, because I, my pen and paper, Jack. Actually, I created a game. We're heading to Boner City. Yes, exactly. Come up, you know, and, and see it grow, crescendo, incrementally. Pay attention. Pay attention. Okay, good thing I'm at home. We're doing this remote.
What's the favorite compliment that you like to receive? What's your favorite story of serendipity? What is a text message you fantasize receiving? What's a story about you that you've been telling that isn't exactly true? Ooh. What would you like us to experience sexually that we haven't yet? They're all in my card game, "Where Should We Begin?"
I thought, how do I take people who don't talk? This is why I love you, Esther. Always selling. Always selling. I love it.
No, it was about these are great. These are fantastic. Yeah. But if you take it in the selling, you missed the point. The point was, people are, when, when you have couples at, you know, going to relate very quickly, often they sit there at the table and they talk about just about not much, right? You know, and who does that? And what's on the list? And who's taking care of this? Then they go out with friends and they suddenly have very interesting conversations. A movie they saw, a music they listened to, a book they read. And you look at them and it's like, "Who am I living with? Why does this person have so many interesting things to talk about, but not with me?" Then you go back into the car or the train, and the first thing you say is, "Who's doing what tomorrow?" And nobody continues the conversation. And then people come to me and they talk about boredom and problems in communication. And so I'm thinking, how do I get people who live with each other day in day out to actually have interesting conversations with each other the way they have with friends and people at work, for that matter? That's when I created the game. I thought, and this should be fun. This should not take place in a therapist's office, right?
Do you think, do you think that's why, I'm sorry to, uh, jump in here, but I do, do you think that you talk a lot about cheating and you talk a lot about infidelity? Do you think that's why that's a source of infidelity, where, you know, you're more likely to even have those questions asked of a random person at a coffee shop than you are your own spouse?
All I can tell you is this: when people have an affair, they usually don't sit next to each other watching TV together, and each of them at the same time scrolling on their phone, right? Right. That's the relationship part. That's what happens once they, unless that's your kink, I don't know. Unless you're, you know, you got that couch kink, I don't know. But I can tell you, you know, if people brought 5% of their imagination that they put into their affairs into their steady relationships, their relationships would improve radically on the spot. There's complacency, and there is laziness, and there is a lack of attention, and a lack of curiosity, actually. Why? Because on some level, with you, I experience my sense of security, my everyday life, my safety, stability. And so we forget that that makes a relationship not die, but that is not the same as what makes it thrive and feel alive. And that aliveness is these types of conversations, activities that you don't typically do. It is surprise, curiosity, imagination. Everybody understands it when they talk about kids. It's no different when it's adults. And you're talk, you talk about that even as, as it as it relates to women, almost more than men. You've said that women lose like that sexual desire almost even faster than men in in marriages, which I was surprised about.
Yes. Because, because everybody thinks that, but they attribute it to saying, "Women have less desire than men." And I typically would respond, and I'm not alone in that, that women have less desire not for sex, but for the sex they can have. And in order to want it, it needs to be worth wanting, and it often isn't. So in a way, for her to remain interested, she needs more, not less. But more, more intrigue, more risk, more imagination, more variety. The opposite of what people typically think, right?
Whereas it feels like for men, maybe it's just more about like the physical novelty that's alluring. If you think about like people who are in, who who partake in infidelity or have a wandering eye for men, it feels a lot more physical than for women, where it feels like that you're getting that emotional charge maybe more than you would.
That's how it's been presented very often. But I think that that cuts short the fact that sex for men, even when it's hit-and-run sex, always has meaning too. It's a, we like, we, we would like to make it more simple: women emotional, men physical. I think that that keeps us trapped in some old stories that no longer serve us too well. There is a piece of that, but there is so much more. You know, and why do men often accept it? It's not because they can do with less. It's because they have learned to take whatever they can get.
I, so I guess like, you know, there was a, I brought you up to a friend of mine, and he brought up a quote of yours that he really loved. And it was about that you cheat on, that you don't cheat on the person, you cheat like it was a, something along the lines of, I'm butchering it, but along the lines of, "You're cheating with the version of your former self."
I think, I think I know what he's referring to. When, you know, people cheat for a host of reasons. Some of the reasons have to do with serious discontents and shortcomings in the relationship: loneliness, sexual rejection, contempt, indifference, lack of connection, vengeance, things like that. But some of them also happen sometimes in relationships that are quite good. That was my major discovery is that I realized affairs are not always a symptom of a relationship going to R. Sometimes take place in happy relationships, and they are not about what you're doing to the other as something that you're doing for yourself. Sometimes you are drawn to the gaze of another, or you're drawn to another person, not because you want to leave the person that you are with, but you want to leave the person that you have become. And it's not that you want, that's it, right? And it's not that you want to find a new person, but you want to reconnect with lost parts of yourself.
It, now, I, I, I believe in that. When I heard it, it spoke to me because I think that that's a very an amazing way to look at it. But how does someone look at a partner? I mean, are there questions to ask a partner that like, what do they wish they were? And there, cuz I think that everyone, you're saying, "How do you prevent that in a relationship?" Like that feeling? Is there a way to safeguard against someone feeling like, you think your relationship is happy and going well, and the other person is has that secret dissatisfaction?
And I think most people have that dissatisfaction. They wish they were who they were at 20, a version of who they were at 27. You know, so, I, I, so there's no avoiding that. So how do you, how do you bring that into your, you know, into your life? Or is, but I think that we need to say something even before that, Jared. Regardless of why it happened, betrayal, violation of trust, lying, duplicity, is shattering. It really cuts deep through a person, regardless of what the affair was about. So at first, this is in stages. Stage one is really about dealing with what this did to the relationship and to your partner, not what it meant for you. It's always two things: What did an affair do to you? And what did it mean for me? But first comes the, "What did it do to you and to us?" Only when that has been really addressed with the proper guilt and the proper remorse, then it comes to, "And what did this mean to you?" Not the facts, but the meaning of the affair. Not what did you do, but why did this happen now? And what did this mean for you? And what should I learn about that for us? That's the second stage. If you're asking, you know, many times people say, "Why didn't they talk about this before?" So first of all, many times people do try to talk about this before. And sometimes, unfortunately, the attention is only given when there is an acute crisis. It's like your leg, you know, you walk on it, you walk on it, it hurts, it hurts, you know, something's happening, you know, something's not right, but you don't want to attend to it till the day you can't get up, right? That happens in relationships too. So preventing, we wish we could prevent. But the fact, the truth of the matter is, affairs have existed since marriage was invented. Now, right? There is not a lot one can do. The more you stay and engaged with your partner, the more you bring up your wishes, your aspirations, and your dissatisfactions to someone who can really hear it and wants to do something about it, the more likely you are to not think the answer is elsewhere. That's a given, right?
Yeah. I mean, I've rendered you both quiet. No, there's so much there. So profound. We're taking it in. Well, you, you do mention a certain there. I, I read a quote and I like, you know, I ended up on Reddit when I was looking you up. Oh, wow. Worst place I could ever end up. What do I look like on Reddit? What is the Esther Perell world on Reddit these days?
All of us are beautiful on Reddit. I can promise you that.
That's all we need to know. Um, but I, there was one thing that someone was upset about, but I, I actually saw that's why I kind of asked you if you get upset by being vilified for maybe empathizing with a situation or sounding like you are. Because anytime if you just say, "Cheaters are bad," you're a good person. If you say, "Well, here's why someone cheats," someone has the ability to sit on moral mountain and tell you, "Well, you shouldn't even. Don't you think cheaters are bad?" I, I don't think that's a fair way to go. But you do talk about how some, not all situations call for disclosure. Interesting. And the idea of holding things back from your partner. All right, how do you? Let's tackle this one, please.
I, you're smiling a little bit, so I, I understand why someone would take umbrage with this, especially on the internet where every, the most moral person wins. But I do understand like, we've talked about it here on the podcast, like, little mystery is okay, right? What, how do you decide between what's mystery? What's the line?
Okay, I think that the first thing that needs to be said is this: I have tried to create a conversation about infidelity that is less polarized and less judgmental, because I think that we need to better understand what is an all too common experience. And that goes beyond just talking simply about victim and perpetrators and villains and and saints and right and wrong. That doesn't mean that I have ever condoned it, nor nor appreciated it, nor approved of it. That is, you know, nobody needs an Esther Perell to give them the permission to cheat. The Bible themselves, the Bible itself has two quotes, two commandments that are about affairs: one for doing it and one just for thinking about it. So ancestors, our ancestors understood damn well what goes on in human nature, and that is not produced by me. But because I have spent decades in this arena, and I've seen the pain and the devastation and the destruction and the lying, I, I have sought to help not just two people, because affairs are systemic. It's the children, it's the adult children, it's the offsprings of, it's the friends, it's the lovers, that the third person that it gets tossed overnight. And there's a cast of characters in the story of infidelity. It's not just two people. And when I ask an audience of thousands, "Have you been affected by the experience of infidelity in your life?" and I give the various options, it's about 80% of the people. It's not a few rotten apples, okay? So once that is, those are the ones being honest, right? Those are the, that's not even counting the people lying, keeping their hands. Did you grow up with a parent who had an affair? Did you grow up with a parent who left for another person? Are you yourself the offspring of an illicit relationship, etc., etc.? I mean, you know, I, I mean, I don't want to get me, get me wrong. I agree with what you're doing. I just, I, to me, like, even explaining this is insanity. Like, it's, it's like saying, "Why would someone investigate why a hurricane happens?" Well, maybe we can help people that have a hurricane happen to them in the future. I'm with you completely. I just, I think it's insane that people. But I think it's hard. I think it's in this in this climate we live.
Totally. I totally understand it. I understand that for some people, what was done to them was so egregious, so duplicitous, so mind-blowing, so gaslighting, that there, it is beyond comprehension. And those books and those voices exist, and they need to exist. I wrote about, you know, affairs is a huge world. Cheating is a big, big topic. And I chose a particular lens to it. That doesn't mean it's the only one, and it doesn't mean it's the one for everybody. And I, I get the ones for whom this feels not clear and accusatory enough. It feels like I'm trying to maintain a certain moral equivalence, so to speak. I don't. But I can see why some people would, and I respect that. I don't defend against it. Those people will find other people who will help them. But, you know, many people who have affairs were once equally judgmental about others who had affairs. And many people, you know, and many people who, who are adult and whose children don't talk to them anymore, need to find a way to have a conversation with them. They were decent parents. And this destroys entire families, not just relationships of two people. So I'm a family therapist, and I believe in the process of repair, and I believe in understanding why people sometimes act in ways that are intensely hurtful. These days, we are in a kind of intransigent stance, not just about affairs, where, you know, if I don't like what you think or what you do or what you stand for, I just cancel you. I ask you from my life, from my family, from my social circle. And that doesn't necessarily create the society that I think many of us want to live in, which is a society that accepts diversity in the broad scope. So this is a vast, vast topic. And I've been on Reddit, by the way. I'm equally curious. You know, what is, what's happening in the public square? You know, we've read what these animals, right? They can go [ __ ] themselves. I'm with you. The digital proletariat. I've heard them call.
No, no. I actually think it's very important to be in the public square and, and, and listen. But I think what's important is I don't ever say I'm right, right? Contrary to maybe other thought leaders, I don't. This is one point of view. It has served millions, and it may not serve others. And that's how it should be.
[Music]
What are your thoughts on, um, I don't know if you've, you've felt or seen this pop up more, but in recent times, this concept of ethical non-monogamy? Yes. Do you feel like that's something that has legs? That like, does it, does it seem inherently like sort of counterintuitive to the whole idea of safety in those things? Do you feel like that can work for people?
I think that, um, first of all, we need to, when we talk about monogamy, we really need to understand that we're talking about a concept that has always evolved. You know, we, monogamy, when somebody says, you know, anything about monogamy, my first question is, "Define monogamy." Monogamy used to mean one person for life. Now monogamy, what means one person at a time, right? That's a big definitional shift. And many people go around telling you, "I'm monogamous in all my relationships," plural. No, no. That's an interesting, uh, you know. Now, um, I think that the debate over monogamy often appears to be a conversation about sex. And I think it asks a more fundamental question. And it is exactly where you started the interview today: Can a new configuration of commitment? Can a new relationship arrangement help us achieve the union between belonging and independence, between security and adventure, between commitment and freedom? Basically, that's the question of monogamy. Is what, you know, we, we went from one person for life to one person at a time to, "I want sex before marriage or before committed relationships. I have a lot of sexual experiences, therefore I'm not monogamous when I arrive at marriage, that's for sure." You know, and then we wanted the same freedom inside the relationship. And that freedom meant that we are living with this notion that one person cannot give us everything. So we began to explore monogamy as a kind of consensual adultery. Instead of doing it in hiding and in lying, you know, we negotiate it as part of the boundaries of the relationship. It is also leading to the next level, which is polyamory. And that is, in some way, for many people, a recreation of the community we lost. It's way beyond sex. I think that to just narrow it down like that sometimes doesn't give the conversation. One is not, you know, this is not about, "Am I for or against?" This is, I observe the changes in relationships. We used to never have a blended family, and we never had a single-parent family by choice, and we never had gay families with children, and we never had trans families with, you know. So we have new arrangements all the time. Ethical non-monogamy is another one of these arrangements that says, maybe our bonding, which by the gay people have done forever, our bonding is a primary emotional connection, but it doesn't sit on sexual exclusivity. We are emotionally monogamous and we are sexually promiscuous. That's not a new model. But in the queering of our society, straight people have begun to think about it as well. It's, it's interesting because it's, you know, that the, I think probably the reason it gets a bad name is it gets taken over by bad actors who use the phrase, you know, there there's a lot of people, "I cheat on you, and then I say, 'I want to open the relationship.'" Yeah, I get it. You know, you don't get, we got an ethical [ __ ] boys. You know, like, you know, when you ask about the concept of ethical non-monogamy, I have one set of answers. When you ask about people doing it, I would say like this: All relationships at this moment need to negotiate monogamy and not assume that they know what it means. Every relationship. And not wait till there is a crisis and the [ __ ] hits the fence to have the first conversation about it. Second of all, if you are leaning towards non-sexual exclusivity and ethical non-monogamy, you usually know that before you enter your relationship. You don't do that after you've had an affair and cheated and lied and betrayed, and then suddenly you say, "I want to change the model." Because mono, ethical non-monogamy is completely negotiated on the basis of equality, not on the basis of a power trip. That's your [ __ ] buddies. You know, that's a power trip. I don't. I, I want to be with you, but I also want to not give up everything else so I can have everything I want. And I never have to make, I never have to mature. Maturity comes with choice. Choice comes with one thing that you won't choose. And that means you're going to have to grieve a few things. If you want it all at the same time, all the time, you're playing a power trip. And you constantly are letting the other person feel that they're not enough. And all of that are maneuvers and manipulations that used under the rubric of ethical non-monogamy, but they really are about a lot of other things.
Well, I, you know, you mentioned something about having to grieve something when you enter into a good relationship. I think that's something that we, a lot of people that write in, they go, "You know, and this is, you know, gendered somewhat, because we got a lot of women that go, 'He says he's not ready. That's an excuse for what?'" And it's like, for what? To, well, to, I, and now I come back to this idea of grieving, you know, losing things. Yeah. There, I think there's an element of grieving, you know, that they're not ready to grieve the loss of maybe dumb things, but they're not dumb to that other person at the time, you know. Why do think, you know, when people are looking for closure, I'm not ready to grieve the loss of not having to go to like, someone's Christmas dinner next year, you know, like, you know, whatever it is. Ready to grieve the loss of the freedom of doing whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it, as if that's what you did before, for that matter, as if, you know, this is, it's presented, I think the idea is also that a relationship is like you're entering a prison. Like you're going to do a bachelor party because you're going to bury your freedom. If that's your definition of relationship, don't do it. I mean, the point of a relationship is to maintain a sense of freedom, but less, or different, or negotiated, or in collaboration with someone else. But it doesn't mean that you're entering a jail and you stop having fun in life. That's when you then begin to, you know, you start out all hot, and then it becomes all boring. But it has to do with this notion that, you know, fantasy, excitement, everything is outside, and this is about hard work. It's such a Protestant view of relationships too, right? Work, money, hard, you know, and, and, and no fun. And then the rest is all in fantasy land, I think. And by the way, it also contradicts all the data because in long-term relationships, especially in hetero families, you know, men do a lot better. They live better, they take better care of their health, they eat better. The quality of life of men goes up in relationships, and the quality of women goes down because they don't take enough care of themselves. They don't, they lose themselves in the relationship, etc., etc. So the, the reality doesn't match the fears, right? You got to take care of some bum.
What, you, you, you mentioned, does, are you a bum? I hope not.
Well, you can go watch the video of my apartment and how I live. You can see whether I'm, it's on YouTube right now.
Do you feel after hearing that, Jared, more inspired to find a relationship?
Yeah, a little bit. You know, I, I've been having some, my, my salt intake is a little high, so I'd like to get that down. So maybe a relationship could help me do that.
That's, get yourself a nurse and a nutritionist, but don't call her your girlfriend.
Well, why not all three? You already, that you said there's a quote, "Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm."
Yes. But should it start in enthusiasm? We have a lot of people that write into us, they say, "Ah, I met this person. I don't know. Right away, I'll go on the second date. I don't know. I'll go on the third date. Is there, when should enthusiasm?" You know, when does it, you know, when does it? Should it start? Place, expect it, right? Is it supposed to be right? Is it supposed to be an immed, this feels stable, but it's not. I'm not getting those intense butterflies. But this feels, this is, this is much more stable and healthy than my previous relationship. Should I stay or should I be looking for more of an intense spark?
See, you know, I mean, this is very interesting. This question comes up ev, you know, whenever I do a public speaking, or now when I'm going to go on the tour, I expect this question all the time, right? So, there is a second part to the sentence, right? The sentence is, um, "Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm. It's a verb that you practice." So, falling in love, I haven't done my parts of speech in a while. Remind me of what a verb is.
A verb, action.
It's an action. You know, it's mixed. Sometimes it's kind, sometimes it's aggressive, sometimes it's boring, sometimes it's exciting, sometimes it's intimate, sometimes it's distant. This love is a, is is something that is very much alive and changes all the time. It's not like I'm looking at you with star eyes and I'm just thinking all the time, "Ah, I feel so good." You know, it, it's that, it's you. I can't explain it better than, um, that doesn't mean you're not enthusiastic in the beginning. You meet somebody, you want curiosity. You want to feel like there's somebody I want to meet again. I liked what happened here. I like how I felt. I like the openness. I like the fact that I forgot my sense of time. I thought I was going to see you for half an hour, and here we are, two hours later. I'm engaged. I'm interested. I have fun. I'm laughing. I'm not thinking about where else I should be. I haven't wanted to open my phone. All of that, you know, that is enthusiasm, of course. I want to feel that. Do I know for fact that I want to live with you for the rest of my life? [ __ ] no. Absolutely not. I have no idea. All I know is I'm having a good time. And all I know is I don't mind if it stretches longer. That gives you a lot of information on a first date, then you know, I want to see you again. And then I start to like what you write to me in between, or what the messages you send me, or the songs you send me, or, you know, the way that we're staying in touch. I like what we're weaving here together. My mind slowly starts to switch. I see something and I begin to think about, "Oh, I should tell so and so." You know, that so and so is now entering into my orbit. They become a part of my mental state, my heart, my excitement, my bone, if you want to add that one to it, Jared. You know, and, uh, that, that's the enthusiasm. And from there, we start to feel butterflies of some sort. We start to feel like there is a, a kind of a movement, an energy. It's energetic that draws, makes me want to see you more, faster, sooner, etc. That's the enthusiasm. In a long-term relationship, what I'm saying is, it, it's a creative project. Love. How do you, you know, you sometimes fight with somebody and the, the next, and you think, "My, for my, I can't, can't stand another minute of you." And then they go to bed, and then you lie next to them, and then you kind of say, "I can't imagine my life without you." And those two things exist side by side, the same night, sometimes in one relationship. It's very alive. You know, kids know that too, by the way. One minute you love your parents, another minute you can be super mad at your parents. These things go hand in hand. We have kind of sanitized it. We think if I love you, all jealousy, envy, competition, power dynamics, you know, all of that suddenly has disappeared. And it doesn't. Life is a very, love is a very, um, busy arena.
So how do you know, like, it, again, like to go back to that initial feeling of, "How do I know? Am I, do I like this person, or do I like that they're safe? Or, you know, am I excited?" Like, where's the level between how excited you should be? And that depends on your history. For some of us, our need for security, protection, safety is the biggest. And I, and I will like you more if I feel safe with you. And for some of us, we come out of our childhood wanting more freedom, more space, more individuality. And I will be looking for more excitement. And sometimes at 25, I needed safety, and at 55, I may need something else. So this is not an either or. But people come out of their life, you know, their childhood with often with so much chaos, so much trauma, that safety comes first. Trust, protection, knowing that you are reliable, that when you say you're going to be there, you're going to be there, that I can lean on you. Those aspects are huge. And for many of us, they're more than we've ever had in our life. And excitement comes second. It's a great answer.
So let's do the email because we want to get to the email. Um, but I want everyone to go check out Esther Perell. Uh, her TED Talks have viewed more than 40 million times, and she's going on her first tour, "An Evening with Esther Perell: The Future of Relationships, Love, and Desire," across seven cities. Um, it's, she looks at each is a 3,000-person first date. I love that. So you're buying everyone drinks? That's an expensive, uh, night for you, Esther.
Can I suggest to you something, Jared? I would like to redefine my tour, just in light of what we talked about. It's actually Reddit in real life.
Wow. You'll get a lot. You get a lot of people on Reddit talking about that. It's okay. It's really wonderful because so many of these questions of love, desire, sex, that, and, and, and all the heartbreak, and everything, we often sit alone with this. And what I wanted was to create a collective conversation with a feeling of belonging, that we're all going through this. And to have this conversation with a huge audience, as I've been doing for quite a while now, is, it's a one-of-a-kind. And then you have this discussion, all the questions that you asked are questions that people are asking live in the theater, with multiple different responses to it. And that's how we create real community. And that's how we start to experience love in a very different way.
Amazing. And we're actually going to give away two tickets to your tour on Instagram. So we'll have a winner on our next episode. So enter now on the Instagram, uh, account. Jordan, do you want?
Me to read the question. Do you want to do the question or have questions? All right, okay. Dear J and J, let's get down to it. My boyfriend and I live together and have been together for about two years, living together for one. He's 28, I'm 28. Lately, he has seemed a bit distant and not nearly as sexual as in the beginning of our relationship. While he says he still loves me, wants to be with me, and nothing has happened to make him feel differently, I'm very anxious and felt like I had to take matters into my own hands to investigate. Bad idea, of course. I went through his phone and when I couldn't find anything, I then went through his laptop. I feel crazy, okay? And found a home sex video of him and his ex-girlfriend that was accessed pretty recently. Now, now I feel like I can't bring this up to him, but I also can't get this horrifying image out of my head. I feel like it's weird for him to keep videos like this and continue to watch if, if it years later. Should I own up to what I've done, confront him, and potentially ruin our relationship, or keep quiet? I don't know what to do from here. From a very grateful Bch, Esther.
Any thoughts? Think I mean, you started, what's her name, whatever, Bch, um, you started, um, with a, a question. I experience your distance, you don't seem to be so into it. The point is not if you love me or if you don't love me. The point is, how is our sex? Can we talk about that? Um, and I don't think I am off when I experience you as less interested. So you can try to hide it, you can try to pretend it's nothing, you can try to reassure me, but that's not really what I want. I want us. If we're going to be together, I want us to have a relationship where we can have honest sexual conversations. Are you up for that? You know, is there things that you're missing with us? Um, are there things that you would like for us? Um, where, where kind of where you're getting it, you know? Um, is there something that you haven't told me that's been with us for a long time and that should have been said long before? Don't make it all about you and your insecurity and your question about, is he, you know, what's missing in me? But also ask him, you know, um, you probably have never been in a relationship, dude, where you actually talk openly about your sexuality and, and the relationship that you have with the person. Because usually when it starts to not go too well, you leave and you move on. So if we, if you say you want to be together, then we need to talk about this. Because we're not going to talk about cars and houses and jobs and 401ks and not talk about our sex life.
So you're, you're hearing this email and you're basically, there's a root issue here. The looking at the phone, the looking at the computer, him watching an old sex tape with him and a past partner, none of that really matters to you when you hear this email. No, because they all are kind of indirect communications. They're insidious indirect communications that basically clog the closeness, the intimacy, and the honesty that needs to exist in the relationship. What are you going to gain? You know, what, so what is the issue? The fact that it's a, a video with an ex-girlfriend? Would it have been different if it was another porn video without this being the girlfriend? Basically, the point is, you feel that your partner has been more removed from you and that he's less interested physically, intimately to connect with you. Find out what's going on, but especially tell him, we're not going to be in a relationship where we don't, where we leave things to fester like this, because that's a setup. You know, it's like we talked about affairs. A couple comes to the show, you know, I'm going to be discussing this. The couple comes and they have a situation about an affair, but if I had seen them a year before, maybe they would have had a conversation that was about the fact that she felt lonely in the relationship. And if I had seen them two years before, it would have been in the fact that maybe he didn't tell her that there was something sexually going on that he never was able to communicate. By the time they come to me, we're talking about an affair, but they've been together for a few years and the issue has changed every time. This is the making of this affair. What you're describing to me now, right, right. What is happening? Why when he, you talk to him, does he try to just kind of placate you and say, don't worry about it, everything's fine, I still love you? Don't be, you're not a child. You, you want, you're a 28-year-old woman who is thinking potentially of staying with the guy. Tell him, look, don't pacify me. What's happening? Can we, I don't, I may have to hear things I don't like to hear, but I prefer that than to have to imagine in my own head what I think may be going on and then kind of add on to it by, by, by investigating into your phone. You know, at some point, the phone may come out or not come out, but basically, if she talks about the phone, what is she saying? I didn't have the guts to really ask you because I didn't believe you would really answer me, and so I went to find out for myself. And then the conversation will be for him about how he feels that she violated his privacy, and she will talk about trust, and this will become the new subject, and we will never talk about the sex.
To go back to the, you say not everything is meant to be disclosed. Would you say don't even bring up the phone? Don't even bring up the computer? Let's attack the real issue. I think at first, at first, in this particular, look, I am a tailor and I do fittings. I don't always have the same answer for every situation. That's the beauty of relationships is that it's contextual. In this case, what she knows for herself is, is I didn't know how to ask. I didn't know what to believe he would say. I didn't trust he would be honest with me. So what, as she writes to you, I went to find out for myself. And now she has to live with the consequences of knowing. Okay, now you know something. What do you know? We don't know what it means for him. We don't know. She put things together. He went, he looked at a video from his ex-girlfriend, and it was opened recently, and that means that's why he's not interested in me. And maybe he still is having a relationship with her. And maybe, if this is true, but you don't have to tell him about the phone to to ask him all these questions. Those questions were there before, right? Stick to what I know. I think something you said before is also really interesting. Like, when to have an open conversation, you have to be willing to hear things you don't want to hear. I think a lot of people don't say so the other people. And I think people only maybe feel safe enough to do that if they're in the context of a couple's therapist office where there's someone there to protect them against someone raging out. Yeah, you wish. You know, such an important part of it to have an honest conversation. You know, to have an honest conversation, that means you're not conflict avoidant. That means you really engage in intense intimacy together. That means that you, you, you really breed closeness rather than avoid each other and and go and do all these kind of underhanded strategies. You know, but the, it's a very interesting, the, that question, by the way, of going to dig for truth and, you know, the sleuth character, that too is a very common one that comes up in the, in, in the public conversations. And it's divided. Some people will say you absolutely have to tell. And some people, I would say, you may tell, but that's not necessarily what you open with. What you open with is, look, I feel something, and I don't think it's, I'm imagining it. And I hope that you and I can have an honest, open conversation about this, because otherwise, we're not going to have a long relationship that's going to be very satisfying to either of us. You will have things that you don't say, and I will have things that I can't hear. Yeah. And the, I guess the emailer's biggest problem is, someone can look at porn and love their partner at the same time. You know, so, so if they go to them, you have kind of a fraudulent case that you've brought to them if you go with just the video. Not only love, but even desire your partner, even be interested in your partner sexually too. People have fantasy lives, but the question is, does this relationship invite our fantasy lives? Do we talk about it? Do we assume it doesn't exist? Do we create a taboo in our midst? Or do we actually acknowledge we have our own relationship and we have, you know, sometimes people love the person with whom they haven't had the best sex with. They've had better sex elsewhere, but that's not the person they wanted to live with, right? Well, I mean, that's the whole thing about like policing thoughts. And we get this question a lot about like Instagram, you know, he follows these women on Instagram or he likes these pictures. Um, like, can, do I have a right to do anything about that or say anything about that? Yeah, but one of the main rights you have is to be curious about it. Show me what you like. Who are you looking at? Who have you been following? What, why does this one appeal to you that you are interested in? Oh my God, I would never have imagined that. You know, it's like, enter the world of the person without being, and the more that is done openly, the less threatening it feels. You know, and that's a more flirty conversation. Oh, that's what you're into. It's such a more fun conversational turn than like, you be looking at, yeah, why are you following that person? Right. Yes. I mean, that, that to me makes a huge difference. Is enter the world of your partner. You know, find out what's there. You may be, you know, maybe you'll start to follow that same person together. Then it becomes, have you seen this one? I mean, there is a way that you can join on this rather than turning it into, um, kind of an evaluation of yourself, because that's what it becomes, right? Am I as good? You're more interested in that than in me? That kind of thing.
Love it. J, did you have any last-minute questions, really quick? Well, I, if you have a second, I'm just hoping we got the second date. Esther, I hope you come back on the show. This was so fantastic. Please do. Um, this is, you're, you're Jordana's Taylor Swift. I, you know, basically, yes. You know, I, I was having a conversation with Trevor Noah at South by this weekend, and that never heard of him. Whichever, no, it's, it's an experience to have a conversation with him. It was a delight. And, uh, and, you know, one of the moments that he described was how he was at home with the, with his partner, and she was talking to him, and he was looking into his phone. And she was saying, but I'm talking to you. And he was saying, but I'm listening. And basically, it was about, no, you're not. You know, when you listen, and this, this is what we just had now, and this is what I hope people will have also in the live events, is you don't just listen with your ears. You listen with your eyes, with your body, with your smile. And the quality of your listening is what creates the openness of the speaker. This is exactly what happens with the phone, with the fantasy that you find in the computer. It's all of that. The way you listen, the way you in, is the way you invite the other person to speak. And he just had, well, he does it with his humor, but it was, uh, it was very well illustrated. Well, that's a great plug for our YouTube, because the best way to listen to our conversation is to watch on YouTube and subscribe to our channel. So thank you, Esther, for bringing that up. That you can watch how we listen to each other. So, um, no, I, I guess, like, what do you wish everyone, you know, with the dating world today? What's one thing you wish everyone practiced that maybe they don't? I think that the thing that we need to practice more than ever is two things. One is in real life, get off the app. Use the app to meet people, to have a range of meetings that you would never have had before, and then meet the people in reality. And don't go off to date on the side. Your date should be part of your life. What happens at this moment is people go out dating away from their life, away from their friends, and then when the dates don't work out, they're left with empty hands. Meet somebody and bring them with your friends, rather than the big reveal that you do after months of having seen someone all alone in a, you know, in secret. It makes absolutely no sense. You like music? Bring them to the concert. You go ice skating? Go and bring them ice skating. Bring them into your life. You'll know exactly who you're meeting, rather than sitting in a dark bar that is noisy enough where you can do a kind of a job interview. Number one is in real life. Number two is we need experiences of collective effervescence, where we create a feeling together and a sense of belonging as a community. Because as we're be living in this contactless world and we're more and more socially atrophied, we forget that the things that we are experiencing alone are actually things that we should experience in community. And that's something, I mean, that's was really the conversation with Trevor Noah, is this need to come together and experience the challenges of our lives with others, rather than alone in front of a screen. It's, they're connected. And to me, those are, in, in my world, where I work on relationships in the broad scope of things, those are two things that absolutely need to happen.
In the moment. That's a tough one for you, Jared, since your best friend is your phone. You've said that's who I'm dating, that's my girlfriend is my, my phone. So can you imagine going on a date and leaving your phone actually at home? Wow. How would I find the date? You know what? Let it happen. If you lost, let it happen. Fair. I think that's going to be our April challenge. Jared goes on a date, phoneless. Phoneless. Jordana, do you have any last questions? Um, this was amazing. I, this was amazing. I feel, again, so excited that you came on. Always so insightful. I feel like I've already gained so much. And I want everyone to go check out an evening with Esther Perel, The Future of Relationships, Love and Desire. It's in seven different cities. It's, it's like a 3,000 person first date. We're giving away two tickets on our Instagram. So go check out. With a guarantee that you may have no another a guarantee, but with a desire on my part that you, you know, the real event is after the event. I hope you get your second date after the event. I love that. And where should we begin? That's the card game. Um, do we, they go to EstherPerel.com? Is that where they can pick? EstherPerel.com for the card game. And, and where should we begin? The podcast, by the way, Jordana, we no longer just do couples. It's also individuals. It's people from all over the world sending in questions, and then me doing a session with them. By surprise. By surprise. I can't imagine that. I just called them all, you know. Um, wait, is that a knock at my door? No, it's like those episodes. I just love. I mean, it's, it's so fascinating to be like a fly on the wall for someone's therapy sessions. And you always just give the most insightful advice that, like, I, I never would have thought of. Um, so check literally everything you do. In my opinion, is gold. So thank you so much for coming on. This has been a big dream of mine. Um, so excited to have had you. And hopefully, hopefully, we get a second date. I hope to be back. My pleasure. All right, thank you so much. We'll be back. Bye-bye, guys. Bye. The U Podcast is produced by Jorge Morales Pico, Shan Kilby, and Candice Mana. Editing by Jorge Morales Pico and Shannon Sone. Social media by Candace Mana. Guest booking by Ali Friedlander. Be sure to follow @you.up.podcast on Instagram and send us your emails to youupbetches.com.