Are Muslims Encountering Jesus? A Surprise Awakening.

Why are so many Muslims reporting dreams and visions of Jesus? 200 Gazans gave their heart to Jesus in one lump sum. The Lord appeared to them in in visions and dreams and realized that all of them had the same vision. How widespread are these visions and dreams and what is the evidence they are really happening? Our guest today is Tom Doyle. He's a Biola University graduate as well as Dallas Theological Seminary and the author of an intriguing book called Dreams and Visions is Jesus Awakening the Muslim World. Tom, I heard about this book a while ago, but when I was reading Lee Stroel's recent book, Seeing the Supernatural, he interviewed you and I instantly thought I've got to have Tom on if he's willing to do so. So, thanks for coming on and joining me to talk about this.

Oh, great to be with you. Pretty amazing stuff we're going to talk about. Oh, I can't wait. Our audience is going to love it. But let's start with your own experience. Like what changed everything for you and got you interested even in studying and reporting on the Middle East?

Yeah. I think uh first I went to uh to Israel in 1995 and that was it was a trip with some DTS alumni and I loved it and that was really my first time being around a lot of Muslims you know throughout the West Bank and in Jerusalem and I mean they were just kind of over there and I'm very interested in what's happening with the Jews and so honestly it was easy for me to just think kind of good guys bad guys I don't know what I think about them you know It's crazy some of the thoughts I had.

But uh one day I was sitting in a restaurant in Denver. So this is in the '9s, Sean. And my car's getting fixed across street. It's a little Middle Eastern restaurant. I've been to Israel like twice. So maybe it's like 96, 97. And two guys came in. They had black leather jackets on, closely cropped beards. They were Arab. And they got their falafles. Middle Eastern restaurant sat right next to me. Well, my dad was an FBI organized crime specialist. So, in in my family, you were you were guilty until proven innocent, you know, so I'm always kind of looking at people. And so, we had these two guys and they're whispering in Arabic. So, my mind is just going with this like what are these guys planning? I mean, the capital's up the street. Are they are they going to do something? What what is happening? And all of a sudden, one of them speaks in English and he says to his buddy, "Hey, Mmood," the Lord is moving, isn't he? And I just went, "Gosh, that sounds like stuff we say in Christianity. I didn't know Muslims talk like that." And they're back to Arabic. Then they're just whispering. Then finally, the other one says, just out loud, "Hey, Muhammad, Jesus is Lord over Syria, right, man?" He goes, "That's right, man." And I looked over, Sean, and I said,"Are you guys believers?" And they said, 'Yeah, are you, man? And I I wanted to say, 'I think so. You know, here here I profiled them, and they're brothers in Christ. And they said, "Come on over, bring a chair." Wow. And I sat down. We're enjoying our falafilles, and they're telling me about what Jesus is doing with Muslims in Syria. I had no idea. I mean, I honestly didn't know any of them were coming to faith in Christ. And again, right off the bat, I started hearing about Muslims having dreams, which I didn't even know what I thought about that, but that became a recurring theme. And I think it just this is the time. This is the great awakening for Muslims right now. They're having dreams. They're having visions. Christians are praying for them and they're getting healed. doesn't always happen, but you can imagine praying to to Allah, nothing's happening, and then a Christian prays for them and they're sick or they need a job and it happens. And so these are great days despite what you see on TV with all the terrorism and that's real. Um, God's moving among the Muslims.

You know, it's interesting. Yes, yesterday Tom I was meeting with a expert in Islam, a Christian from a country in the Middle East who was just doing some recording for us at at Biola. We got lunch, we're catching up. I said, hey, I'm interviewing this guy Tom tomorrow on dreams and visions. I said, do you encounter this? And he goes, you know, he goes, just not long ago, he mentions another country in the Middle East. I I had a cab driver who is a Muslim. And I asked him when he, you know, when he became a Muslim and he said, well, I was born a Muslim. He goes, "Can I tell you when I became a Christian?" And he tells the guy and he says, "Well, tell me a little bit more." And he goes, "You know, this can't be a a surprise encounter because just a couple weeks ago, I had a dream of a man in white." And he started telling me things I hadn't heard before. Just yesterday, this guy's never shared this publicly as far as I know. I'm just hearing this over and over again.

So, you had that experience in the '9s. You wrote your book in 2012. Again, it's called Dreams and Visions. Is Jesus awakening the Muslim world? What happened between that experience in the '9s and publishing this book?

Yeah. Well, in 2001, God called us out of the pastor. I'd been a pastor almost 20 years. God called us to be missionaries in the Middle East. And so, we had a love for all of them, Sean. So, we we couldn't go stay like in Israel or Jordan. That would cut us off from different countries. So we would go back and forth and we had national leaders and it grew to about 10 countries along the way. We're hearing these stories all the time about Muslims having dreams about Jesus. So from the start I just want to clear it up. Nobody has a dream as a Muslim and whamo wakes up and they're a Christian. You know it doesn't happen. They have a dream rocks their world. It's high definition. They can't shake it. And then they start seeking. They find a Bible, they listen to radio, whatever. They they find someone a Christian to explain it to them and there they go. That's so it's just initial. But but these are people's Sean, many of them that had their first dream 30, 40 years ago and they remember it in detail. I can't I can't rem I can't give you the details of the dream I had last week, but so this is so much from God. And so I've had to think through all of that. What why is God using that? Possibly because Islam was birthed with a dream. Muhammad went into a cave and he had a dream. Uh that Gabriel Gabriel the angel came to him. And so even in Ramadan, the last week of Ramadan, there's one night called the night of power, the night of destiny, and Muslims cry out, "God, would you make yourself real to me? Come to me in a dream, in a vision." And you know what? Jesus accommodates that request. And that is the number one day of the year that Muslims have dreams or visions about Jesus on the night of power, the night of destiny. when they cry out to God, "Lord, show yourself to me," Jesus comes to them. Wow.

Okay. So, take me back. How do you What kind of research did you do for your book? Is there quantitative data? Is it personal stories? Like, talk a little bit about what it takes to write a book of this magnitude. I've written a lot of books. I wouldn't even know where to start with this one.

Yeah. Really? Really? Well, um, it is kind of funny because for years we were cataloging these stories and basically Sean, I never knew I was going to write a book. It was just telling stories in churches. I mean, to go and say, "Hey, we're missionaries. We're trying to reach the Muslims." Doesn't go over a lot in the churches after 9/11, you know? So, we started telling stories of real Muslims we'd met. And it you could just see people's hearts melting as they heard these stories. And and it helped that my background I went to Biola Dallas Seminary. I wasn't Assembly of God. We weren't we weren't looking for this. We were shocked that we were hearing these stories all over. And finally I it just was kind of going through my mind. You need to write. You need to write. And I was on Moody Radio one day with Charlie Dyer, my OT pro at Dallas Seminary. And he said, "Hey, tell a dream story." So I did. to a Muslim dream store. And he goes, "You know what, Tom? You need to write a book about Muslims having dreams and visions." And I said, "Yeah, I've thought about that, but I'm not sure how evangelicals would would accept that." And you know what he said, Sean? This was just perfect. He goes, "We evangelicals, we need to get over ourselves because God can do anything he wants at any time. Who are we to tell him he can't use a dream? He's using dreams." And I thought, I'm writing a book. And so we did there was a crazily enough there was 11 publishers that wanted to do it. There wasn't a lot out there. And so it was just real stories. We did have some data from uh the from I'm trying to think of the guy from Fuller that worked with Muslims. He was so good. And he said about onethird of all Muslims that came to faith in Christ that they had surveyed and it was about a thousand of them had had a dream of Jesus, a dream or a vision.

Yeah, I would say informally, we've never done a poll, but I know like I can just say uh in one country because we'll just say the country in Jordan, we've seen over 500 Muslims come to faith in Christ. Many of them have dreams and visions. And um in fact, that's a common question to ask them when you meet a Muslim. Hey, have you heard of this phenomenon that that um God is uh blessing the Muslim people? He he is. Yeah, he's he is he's he's lifting them up. Well, what do you mean? He's coming to them in dreams and visions and then tell them a Jesus dream story. They are interested. See, they believe Jesus is a prophet. They just don't believe he's Messiah. But this can be a a natural bridge for them to see, okay, this guy's pretty powerful. So anyway, we started collecting them. We just had them handwritten and we started typing them out and away we went. So we've wr written four or five books since then and it's on Muslims coming to faith in Christ and a lot of times it's dreams and visions that started it.

Have things changed? So this was 2012 so it's over a dozen years ago. Have things changed in any way that you can tell more uh less because there's more technology uh or is it impossible to tell because maybe just that we're studying it we're becoming more aware of these. What's your sense over the past dozen years or so?

I think it's ramping up. And here's what I would base it on. We do medical clinics around the Middle East. And we can see anywhere from 3 to 500 Muslims in three days at a clinic. And we're always asking them about dreams. We're always sharing the gospel. And many of them will tell us, you know, I had a I had a dream about Jesus. What does that mean? And we're hearing that more and more openly. We used to see maybe one or two that might pray to receive Christ in a clinic. Now it's kind of shocking if it's not 30 or more that are praying to receive Christ. So we just see more and more it ramping up. We are keeping track now more than we were were. But I think if I'm guessing here's what it is, Sean. years ago there were all these ministries praying about the unreached people groups unengaged unreached people groups and of course the Muslims oneif of the globe pray for the Muslims praying through the window all these prayer groups that people were just praying for decades by country Lord reach the Muslims in Syria reach the Muslims in Iran and all of a sudden it started happening and God got our attention by saying wait a minute these people are ready I I think the question I get all the time is do you think Muslims are open to the gospel? I say that's not the question. Are we open to the gospel in sharing it? Because they are. And so it won't offend them if you talk about Jesus. It won't make them mad if you give your testimony at all. So anyway, I know now most groups we relate to that are reaching Muslims around the world say they think it's about half the people that come to faith in Christ that along the way their journey to the cross that Muslim had a dream or a vision.

Let's talk about some of these stories. There's a few that you shared in Lee Stroel's book again that I just shared with my wife. I was like listen to this. I'm interviewing Tom tomorrow. Like it's just incredible. So, you've been doing this for a while. Maybe just two or three that come to mind that kind of capture the kind of dreams or visions that a lot of Muslims are having.

Okay. So, here's one. We were smuggling Bibles into Iran. And so, we got in, it was a miracle, 500 Bibles, got a small team, and we're there. And um it's dangerous because it's written in Farsy and they know that it's the Muslims that read Farsy. So, they know where those are headed. if you get caught. Miracles at the border, miracles at the airports. We get in and one day we're just standing on a street talking to people and covertly as they're asking questions, we say, "Hey, we have copy of God's word if you want it." Giving it to him, not making it, you know, broadcast or anything. Anyway, a guy comes up to me and says, "Um, I'd like you to have lunch at my house." Said, "Okay." Was in Esvahan, Iran. Okay. He goes, "I want you to meet my family." I said, 'Oh, can I ask why?' And he goes, "Well, you're obviously Christians and we just like to meet you, visit with you." Oh, okay. So, we go to the house. Well, Sean, we didn't know. I mean, this is Iranian, you know, this is this is what they do. Wasn't just the family. It's all the cousins and stuff. We counted 29 people there. 29. So, we have the kebabs. They're serving us food, all that kind of stuff. And we're there a couple hours. And then the the the father, and he's a grandfather, too. Takes a chair, turns it backwards, sits right in front of me, and says, "So, I have questions." Okay. I said, "What what's your question? Tell me about Jesus." I said, "All right, I'd love to do that. Can I ask why you want to know as a Muslim?" And he said, "Because he keeps coming to me in dreams. I don't know who to talk to." And so, Sean, we spent a couple hours, boy, did he have questions. And I think for us as believers, we always wonder maybe leading someone to Christ, was that legit? We hope so. We pray so. But it ends up that at the end he goes, "Okay, I'm ready." And the whole family's sitting there. And he goes, "I'm going to pray to receive Jesus now." Wow. And he goes, "Anybody going with me?" And it looked like every hand was raised. And maybe that's just how it is. Okay, we're going to follow him. So, we prayed with them and we started getting emails from the family and it was legit. They this is this was the this was the visit they had prayed for and it ends up that um there were so many miraculous things that were happening. But I I think one thing that was kind of cute was one of the sons was talking about his two sisters. He wanted to say that we're on fire for Jesus, you know, but he didn't know the translation, right? So he said, "Can't tell you what's happened to our family, how Jesus has changed our family." He goes, "My sisters are hot for Jesus." But I knew what he meant, right? We know what he means. And so anyway, so that was one.

Here's another one. We're in We're doing a medical clinic and this is in Middle East country. Let's just say it's real close to Israel, okay? Mhm. And we're doing a medical clinic and the very first day, so you'd see 3 to 500 Muslims in 3 days and and this woman opens the door. She's fully covered Muslim woman and I just happened to be walking by the door. We have doctors and nurses. They're seeing patients. Anyway, I said, "Oh, can I help you?" And she goes, "Oh, I I just didn't know if I could come to this cuz I'm Muslim." And I said, "Well, of course you can come to this. Of course, come on in." And we opened the door. And she goes, "Well, it was in kind of a Christian neighborhood. I wasn't sure." We open the door, Sean. She sees some of her friends with her kids sitting there and we have Christian coloring books and things that they're using before they go in to see the doctor. And it ends up that day, she absolutely loved her time. Her kids were taken care of. They were seen by the doctor. We have food there. She hung out until the clinic was closed. She probably heard the gospel three or four times at least. The doctor does it, the nurses, and that the next morning we get there and the clinic opens at 8:00. She's waiting for us. And we thought, "Wow, that's weird. They're here before we are, you know, and she came running up to us and she said, "I saw him last night. Jesus came to me in a dream." Like, are you kidding? She goes, "No, this is what he told me." And she told it verbatim. She hung out at that clinic the next three days and on that last day she prayed to receive Jesus. She was convinced.

Well, I think what's pretty compelling about this is you're not just telling stories of people passed on from others to you. You have met these people firsthand and report a lot of them. I think that's what's compelling about this. What are some of the commonalities across these kind of dreams and visions? Like what are some of the ties that you just consistently hear?

Yeah. You know, it was kind of interesting and you you think, "Okay, Lord, what were you doing with this?" Not not sure. But in the beginning, we would hear kind of a standard dream where a Muslim said, "I looked across this lake and there was a man in a white robe and he said, "Come follow me." and I saw myself walking on water toward him. We used to hear that all the time. Now, we hear all kinds of different dreams where something in their life that happens. Jesus is there with their family. Uh Jesus is answering their prayers. Um Jesus is saying, "I'm going to be with you always. Follow me." I mean, we interviewed a guy, Sean, that was at Mecca during the Haj and he was going around. He's going around the Cabone and he says he looked up, saw a man in a white robe on the Cabone pointing at him and said, "Muhammad, you're following the wrong way. Leave and come follow me." So, this is a guy in Jericho. So, I said, "Muhammad, what did you do?" And he said, "I left immediately." He goes, "I I got my stuff. I went back home. I've never seen a vision." And he said, "When I get home, there's this Christian dude moving in the apartment next to me." And I'm helping him carry boxes and and I said, "I had this weird experience. Do you think that could is that Jesus? Who was it?" The guy explained it to him and since he was right across the hall, they spent time together daily and finally he comes to faith in Christ. He was convinced.

So, we see all kinds of firsthand accounts. And people say, "Well, how do you know they're the truth? Here's the acid test. The ones that pray to receive Christ, our teams, our leaders, our national leaders, ask them two questions before they pray as a Muslim. Number one, this is all great. You want to follow Jesus, but it could be dangerous. In fact, the people you love the most, your family, they might try to hurt you. Are you willing to suffer for Jesus? Yes. Okay. Good. Okay. It could even be worse than that. Someone could take your life. We just want you to know it's only fair that you know what could come on you because of this. Are you ready to see receive Jesus? You might have to die for him. Yes. So you can I mean I think about that Sean. I was a pastor for 20 years. Can you imagine those two questions in the new members class? I mean I mean it empty quick, right? I think I'll go to the church down the street, you know. So yeah, ready. I think that's an acid test. Someone that's ready to die for Jesus. It sounds like a pretty legitimate conversion to me.

How do they know that it's actually Jesus? And I wonder because you know I've studied a lot of near-death experiences and there's a tendency to think well Buddhist see Buddha and Hindu see Krishna but that's really not true. There's an inordinate amount of people seeing Jesus even without an awareness really of who Jesus is. And although they describe them differently in near-death experiences often times people just kind of say I just knew it was him. Like they just knew it. What will Muslims say? Because I know in the Quran Jesus is held up as a prophet, virginborn, sinless working, you know, or not sinless working, sinless, miracle working prophet, right? How do they know it's actually Jesus? What do they say when you ask them that?

Almost all of them say, "He told me it was Jesus." He said, "I am Jesus." Now, when we were kind of in that white robe, man in the white robe initial, this was blowing our minds. We never knew this was going to happen, a lot of times it was Muslims saying, "Who who is that man? Who who do you think it is?" We'd say, "Who do you think it is?" Well, could it be Jesus? I I I think so. He didn't say. And I almost wonder, Sean, if that was the Lord just shaking us from our slumber to say, 'Look, they're ready. They're asking questions. All you have to do to share the gospel with that one is say, "Yes, that's Jesus." This is a slam dunk. But now it seems like everyone we talk to, he identifies himself. I'm Jesus. And this is a lot from unreached people groups and villages where they wouldn't know. They wouldn't have internet. They wouldn't know who Jesus is. So yeah, that that's helpful and somewhat of a simple answer. I guess just ask the man in a white robe and he can tell you.

Uh are are people in a in a common spiritual state when they see Jesus? because I haven't talked with obviously near as many as you have, but so often somebody's like, "I was at the end of my rope. I was trying to re, you know, please Allah. I was feeling depressed." Like there's an openness and a yearning. Yet, I've heard some people who would just say, "It was a complete disruption. My life was totally fine. I wasn't looking for Jesus or in any kind of spiritual crisis at all." What do you hear commonly from people of where they were at when they had these kind of dreams and visions?

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, going back to the New Testament, Jesus had a heart of affinity for those that were marginalized, the for those that were desperate, and you know, the the woman that just reaches the hem of his garment, you know, it's just just pleading just that was that was her show of I believe you who you are who you say you are. So, um, yeah, it's it's um I'm sorry, I forgot the question. Can you say that? Oh, no, that's okay. the spiritual state of people when they have the dreams, are they in a state of expectation or some just completely disrupted in their lives?

Yeah. I think the majority of what we see the people that were desperate, they had nowhere to go. They were marginalized people. What what do I do? Can't eat. Whatever. Uh one of the women that we interviewed, oh my gosh, talk about loving Jesus. She was from Iraq. Her husband was radical and he used to beat her every day. He felt it was his duty because there's that verse about beating your wife into submission. He felt he had to do that every day. And so one day he took a frying pan and hit his wife and she got knocked out. She was on the floor and she came too and there was some blood there. And she said this. She prayed. She said, "You know Lord God, Allah, every day I pray and say where are you?" And the next day my husband beats me. And the next day he beats me. Where are you? I'm only changing one word. One word in this prayer. God, who are you? Because the God I've been praying to either isn't listening or doesn't care. So here I'm I'm saying, God, who are you? What an invitation for Jesus, Sean. Of course, that night she has a big Jesus dream and Jesus comes and says he loves her. She's going to be fine. He's going to take her to safety. I met her in Jordan and he arranged for an escape for her to get in a cab and leave with her son. It was a horrible situation how much they were really being tortured. But but she was in such a desperate place. And there's Jesus answering. They're not going to get any answers at the mosque. You know, Allah is not going to reach down and assure them. Only Jesus does. And so, I think a lot of times they're in a desperate state and there he is.

Another thing that surprised me in the interview with uh with Stroa that I had not heard before and I was talking with my wife about this is that apparently these visions are so common or at least were in Egypt that some Christian organizations put up kind of banners or billboards that said if you've seen the man in a white robe contact me or contact this number. Tell us more about what happened, why they did that, and how prevalent they really were, the dreams.

Yeah, they did that on a bus sign in Cairo. And it's a miracle in a Muslim nation how that sign ever got on that bus, but it did. They paid the money. Hey, can we do this? Sure. The bus company says, "Sure, they take the money." Probably double charged them, but anyway, they go for it. And it ends up that they start getting calls. And of course, the call doesn't go to a number in Egypt. It goes to California, Canada, and then it comes to them. And finally, the authorities see those and just I think in the beginning that the Lord just blinded their eyes, but then kind of registers with some Muslims, hey, who who did this? Why are we allowing this in Egypt? They finally got rid of it. Um, I have a friend in Canada that works with the ministry there and um, he said, "Tom, you you just can't believe it. We we knew Muslims from our world travels and missions were having dreams about Jesus." So, we put together a website and we got it out there and we didn't even think it was very good. Actually, it was just kind of basic, but we just asked the question, "Have you seen a man in a white robe who says he's Jesus?" He goes, "Take a guess how many responses we got." I don't know, 200. He goes, "750,000." Oh my goodness. 750,000. It started a ministry, Sean. He said, "We're just getting emails just flooding it." I've seen him from all these countries and that and so we decided to start I found the truth.com and these are former Muslims that came to faith in Christ and they share their testimonies and Sean it took off like a rocket there's over three million followers now three million so we got the idea from I am second or one for Israel okay they're doing the Jews you know I'm second is doing you know American people in the us. Let's go after the Muslims. And it just took off to the point where on our YouTube channel channel, it's not uncommon to see the Muslims advertising a new mosque being built that they want to raise money for or something. And so I had some people that said, "Gosh, that's not right that they do that." And I said, "No, that's the best sign we could have ever seen. They know Muslims are coming to this channel and watching these videos and it's people like Rasheed and Abdul Murray and Mary Marzy that were in Evan prison sharing their testimonies and they're so powerful and that's why I think like video and some of the things you guys are doing at Biola is so good because in the Muslim world they're not as much readers they're watchers. They're watchers. You get something for five minutes, six minutes, you can just see lives changed because of that. So I found thetruth.com. Anybody that's watching this that has an interest in reaching Muslims, just say, "Hey, I saw a video from guy in Pakistan. You're from Pakistan. Can I send you a link?" They'll they'll want to see it. You know, we have them from all around the world.

So, are you familiar of anything to the reverse of former Christians becoming Muslims and then websites chronicling the reverse of this?

Yeah. Um, I mean, their poster boy, Muslims, their poster boy is Cat Stevens, a guy that was an English rocker in the 60s, the Cats in the Cradle, and there was this song about an absent father, I'm gonna be like you when I grow up and and that. So Cat Stevens was a Christian. We would say had a Christian background, but it was very traditional. No born again experience. So that is their big video that they will show. Look, look at what happened. He was a Christian. He became a Muslim. It does happen. Some people do that to marry a Muslim. You know, uh we've seen those things happen. We meet uh people in Middle Eastern countries where they obviously are American and they got into an area where there was a lot of Muslims and aren't they good people and all of a sudden they convert to Islam. It gave them some order in their life. They pray five times a day. They're probably a different person, you know, if they're not radical. But so we deal with that. We deal with with people that have done that. And then of course there's the false dreams and we need to talk about that too.

All right, hold hold that thought. I want to I want to come back to that. I'm glad you brought that up. Are these kind of dreams and visions primarily outside of the West? Like we're not talking about Australia or New Zealand or Europe, Canada, United States, and in the Middle East. Or do we encounter stories of former Muslims in the West also with these kind of dreams and visions?

We totally do. We see them here. I wouldn't say to the degree that we do in the desperate countries like Iran or Syria or some of these places, a village in Egypt, Afghanistan. Wow. It's it's it's high the number of dreams and visions. But we do see it here. In fact, I uh in Dallas um I was leaving our office one day and it was it was July and it was really hot and I was in my mind complaining about gosh, it's so hot. We had just moved from Colorado. 7,400 feet, shorts and a sweatshirt in the summer, you know. It's so nice. Here I am in Dallas. It's hot. And I got in the car and I wasn't in the best mood. I'm going to take off and go get Joanne. We're going to dinner. And then I looked at my little Honda and it says six miles till empty. And I went, "Are you kidding?" Okay. So then I get off the freeway, three gas stations. Okay. I'll take this one. It's a Fina. I stick my card in and it says must see cashier. Okay. So I was like, "Lord, come on. I'm late." You know, I just was not in the spirit, if I can just say that. Being a jerk. So I go in, put my card down, and this woman comes up and she's Muslim. And I just said, "Wow, you're Muslim. We we work a lot in the Muslim world. We we love your people, and where are you from?" And she goes, "Well, you you go to the Middle East a lot." I said, "Yeah." And she goes, "Well, then you have to guess where I'm from." Okay. I said, "Egypt." She goes, "Nope, Saudi Arabia." And I said, "Really?" And all of a sudden, it started to hit me. I think God set this up. You know, I think it's more than my next appointment. And so I said, "You know, I wrote a book about your people and I'd like to give it to you. Could I could I do that?" She goes, "Sure." So I gave her dreams and visions, ran to the car, got it, gave it to her, and I said, "God is honoring your people. Muslims are having dreams and visions about Jesus." And she said, "You wrote a book about that?" And I said, "Yeah, I did." And she goes, "Wow, that's so weird because I've been having dreams about Jesus." Whoa. And I wanted to stop and turn around and say, "Forgive me, God. I'm tracking with you now. I got the I know why I'm here." I gave it to her. I'm filling out the little thing, little slip, and I leave. And um two or three days later, I need gas and I'm in the same area. I thought, I'm going to go to the Fenus station. And I thought, I'm going to go to that same pump. And I stuck my card in. Worked perfectly. And see, I don't think it was a card malfunction. I think it was an order from God. It didn't say, "Please see cashier." It said, "Must see cashier." So I walk in, Sean, and she's halfway through the book. And I said, "Ria, you like this book?" She goes, "This book is like my life." I said, 'What do you mean? And she goes, "Jesus has been coming to me in over 30 years." For over 30 years. I said, "In dreams and visions for over Yeah. Didn't you ever talk to a Christian?" "Oh, yeah. Plenty of them." But I don't know. A lot of them seem like they were afraid of me because I'm Muslim. And I don't know. I just never got answers. But I knew this in these dreams. She said two things that just hit my heart. I never felt so safe with a man in my life as I did with Jesus. And then he used to tell me, "Remember Rowia, I love you." And she said, he he says, "He died for me. I don't know what that means." And so, remember Rouia, I love you. And she said, "I just figured this. if Jesus loved me this much to come to me for over 30 years one of these days he was coming for me and I said Ria I think it's today I mean I think this is what it's leading up to and I went through and just shared some gospel verses from Romans and and the Gospels and she was ready to receive Jesus we held hands Wow in the Fina gas station a Muslim woman prays to receive Jesus. Nobody came in and interrupted us and she loves Jesus today. So it it happens here too. I think we should be ready for it. Like it's like we say in Uncharted, Sean, the Muslims are coming. The Muslims are coming. The Muslims are here. So what are we going to do about it? We going to just pray someone else reaches that someone else's responsibility. They're there and they're ready. So we got to reach out.

Help me understand why. If somebody's in America and they had dreams about Jesus and there's churches everywhere and accessibility to New Testament, she wasn't just like, I'm just going to check out the people whose religion is founded on Jesus. Was it like embarrassment? Was it the cost? Was it not knowing? Like what was it that held her back?

Yeah. Well, I think one kind of churches she went to maybe didn't preach the gospel sadly. But hey, this is Dallas, Texas. It's not like there ain't a lot of churches here. They're everywhere, every corner, right? And so she had pretty plenty opportunities. I think some people feel so awkward they see a Muslim woman covered and it scares them. It it they don't know what to think. They they probably think something sinister. I don't know, you know, if I trust this woman, whatever. But she didn't get answers. But it just that that excitement grew and grew and grew to where she was ready to receive Jesus. So how the thing I think Sean is how many RAS are out there, you know, going I think I have these dreams or I read something in the Bible or heard something on TV or a podcast or whatever and what does it mean? So yeah, you a few times you've said we now who is we? the ministry you work with, friends, other ministries, like how many people are tracking this and writing on this and kind of in the lane that you're in?

Yeah. So, we have on our team states and and the Middle East probably 85 staff and then tons of volunteers, probably a few hundred volunteers everywhere from Pakistan to Egypt. And just common things are happening. The cultures are different. The languages are different. The dreams are often very similar. There's a lot of imams that we know that have come to faith in Christ that are no longer imams that have gone underground. They want to do videos on how they came to faith in Christ. And so, um, yeah. So, so it's not something like we were trying to write a book. We just started hearing all these stories and we just started writing them down. We thought this would encourage the body of Christ. A, Jesus is answering our prayers. They're ready. And B, it's time to go get him. It's like he's just opening the door and going, "Here you go." He's setting it on the tea for us. They're already having a conversation in a dream. Explain it to him. So, that's my thought on that.

I I've got a friend in the in the mosque near where I live where I brought my son over some time ago and just he gave us a tour. We got to sit down and I just asked him 10 questions a Christian would like to ask a uh Muslim. And actually before that we had some of the best Persian food ever. I mean it was incredible. I bet. I bet. And oh my goodness. And so I was back having coffee with him this week hoping like, hey, you know, let's flip the script a little bit. would love to have you come visit my church, give you a tour, meet my pastor, take you to maybe some fish tacos or something because I live in southern Orange County, not far from the beach, and then you could ask me some questions uh that a Muslim would like to ask a Christian. Well, when I first interviewed him, one of my questions was I said, "If you could ask a Christian anything, what would it be?" And I had no idea what he was going to say. And one of the things that he said was, "If Jesus appeared to you and told you to follow Islam, would you do it?" Now, I took that as him saying, "This is probably happening a lot, and would I be obedient to kind of an authoritative vision like this?" When I talked to him later, that actually wasn't his point. He was just like, "I just would want to know if you would submit to a claim like this, which makes perfect sense within the mindset of a Muslim. But it got me thinking, Tom. I was like, I wonder how many people there are on the reverse side who say Jesus showed up to me and told me to follow Muhammad and become a Muslim. And I found at least a handful of stories like this, not as many, but I found some on Instagram and YouTube and some other settings. Do you hear these kinds of stories? And how would you respond to those testimonies?

Yeah. I was taking a cab from Jerusalem to Bethlehem one day. So, it had to be a Palestinian driver that, you know, had Israeli citizenship and could get into Bethlehem through the checkpoint. And I started sharing with him and uh so it's Abdullah and I'm telling him about Jesus dreams and I'm talking to him about Jesus and he said, "Oh, I had a Jesus dream." I said, "You did?" He goes, "Yeah." Mhm. Yeah. I was walking with Jesus and all he was talking to me. It was very nice. It's very pleasant. I said, "Wow, that's great." He goes, "Yeah." And then um Jesus put his arm out and Muhammad was standing next to him. And Jesus put his arm around Muhammad and said, "This is the latest prophet. Follow him." Wow. I said, "Really?" So, how how many times have we been in places like when I was in Baghdad, Iraq, near the green zone, horrific dreams. I mean, the devil can do that. We know that. And so, these are demonic dreams that they're having. That is not the truth. And that's not what the gospel says. But there are time I mean, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So, we do see it. not as a lot not as much as we thought we would, but we do see that we we meet people that have that experience.

So, so it is part of the response that the dream itself is not authoritative and doesn't prove anything, but it's more of an attention getter and it's more of somebody that stops them in their tracks and makes them ask questions and seek spiritually. Is that how you interpret these dreams as a whole?

AB: Absolutely. It's they're high definition. They cannot forget them. They cannot. And I and I think about this and then you know they meet a believer that explains it to them. I I think of this verse. This is written to Israel. But could this be a double fulfillment? Isaiah 65:1. I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me. I was found by those who did not seek me. So all of these Muslims that we talked to say I wasn't seeking Jesus, you know, he just appeared. He just came to me and it caught my interest and I started reading things. I started finding a Bible. I mean so many of them we know would find a Bible and hide it under their mattress and then when when the husband goes to sleep or the wife goes to sleep, pull it out and start reading. And you know, you think about I know you teach apologetics, you've read the Quran, I've read the Quran. You read that and then you read the Bible and this is just for a Muslim. The shock level must be off the charts. The we know this like with with Iranian Muslims, they are people of the heart. They're very much uh culture. They like art. They like music. If you if you want to share the gospel with them, you know, talk to them, but tell them to read the sermon on the mount. Ma Matthew 5 through7 just rocks their world. The way Jesus explained, love your enemy, not tolerate your enemy, love your enemy. They will come back with so many questions. It just speaks to their heart. So, um, that that's really interesting. And that was actually a question I was going to ask is when often times unbelievers are open to reading something. Of course there's books like More Than a Carpenter which is just you know God's used that in countries and people around the world including the Middle East. But really my go-to is like first just start with the scriptures before anything else if you can because the scriptures are the word of God contain the word of God. Yeah. So it sounds like rather than just saying read John or read Romans, you typically say just start with the sermon on the mount. Number one, it's shorter, right? It's just like Matthew 5 through7 if you read that one. So is that why you recommend there or is it some of It sounds like it's some of the teaching within the sermon on the mount that can be compelling to a Muslim as well.

Yeah, it seems to resonate with all Muslims, but whenever we share it with someone from Iran that speaks Farsy that has that nature that just seems to it's there's it's poetic in many ways. There's so many um ways that Jesus communicates that just hits their heart. And so we

will always do that. And then, you know, we'll we'll like anybody else tell them to read John. We have boxes of more than a carpenter. Tell your dad we Oh, you do that. Oh, yeah.

Because then they will get into, well, the Quran says this and and and we know Jesus didn't die on the cross. In fact, I was walking through Israel with Arthur Blessed and carrying the cross, taking the cross into all the countries. Arthur Blessed, if you know him, and he's been in every single country carrying the cross. And we were going through Jericho and it's all Muslim and they're just lining up touching the cross. And a lot of people think Arthur Blessed is that an act or whatever. He I've never seen him miss the chance to share the gospel with someone.

So we we went through Israel and went to Jericho and everybody was coming up touching the cross asking his questions. These are veiled women. These are Muslims. But this one guy, I see him standing in his doorstep of his shop and man, Sean, he looked like he had steam coming out of his ears already. He made a beline for me and he said, "What's your name?" And I said, "It's Tom." He goes, "I'm Nimmer." He goes, "I got a question for you. I'll become a Christian if you can answer this." If Jesus was God, why couldn't he get off that cross?

See, to them, they're thinking in terms of Muhammad. Well, if it's Muhammad, he would have his followers would have gotten him down and he would have declared war or whatever. That's all they can think about. And I said tried to cool it down. I said, "Oh man, Nimmer, great question." And it's a pretty easy one really actually when you think about it. And it's this. He didn't want to come down off the cross. He was up there to pay for my sins. I've done a lot of bad things in life. Jesus paid for my sins. He was the sacrifice. I'm sure you've done a few things wrong in your life. That's why he did it. He chose to stay there. Could he have gotten off it? In a minute, he could have, but he chose not to. He still didn't like it. You know, he he went off in a huff. But that they just see someone like that who I would say was probably pro-Hamas radical. They can only see Jesus and Christianity through the light of Islam. Well, that's weakness. He He was defeated. That wasn't a victory. And and so anyway, that's how they think. That's really interesting. And to me, the best answer is a subversion of power. John 2 and John 10. I lay down my life and I take it up again. That's right. No one has authority over me is exactly what Jesus says in John 19 to Pilate. So he could have, but he exercised the greatest act of power to willingly sacrifice himself for another. That takes power of a different kind to do that. Of course, that's that's just the, you know, the mystery, so to speak, of the cross that subverts the power of the world. But I love that. That's so that's such a helpful way uh helpful way to look at it.

Uh gosh, so doing all this, have you had a supernatural vision or dream of Jesus? Do you pray for one? Do you want one? Like do you ever think about God just show up for me or is just talking with this many Muslims like I've gotten my fill. I know this is true. I don't even need one. Like how do you make sense of that? Yeah. You know, I was laboring once over my dad who was not a believer. He did come to faith in Christ at 75. He was an FBI. He caught people in the top 10. He had a law degree. He was super smart. And I'd share Jesus with him. and he would have questions that I couldn't answer. And I just would would just pray, "Okay, God, give me the wisdom." And we'd have these talks. It wasn't hostile or anything. He'd just say, "Hey, I love Jesus. I'm yeah, I go to church." And he's Catholic. And he said, "Go to church." And all that, but there wasn't that personal relationship that I experienced. And so, one night, I had a dream. We had this big picture window at our house and there were some mountains and I saw some clouds rolling over and all of a sudden the clouds parted and here comes Jesus and he's on a horse. And I remember in this dream going to my dad and saying, "Dad, it's now. It's now or never." And he said, "Okay, I believe." He prayed right then and then that was the dream. And boom, we went up to heaven. And so that was my dream. That was my vision was so powerful. I remember it like it was yesterday. And so yeah, I mean I think all of us would love a dream or a vision. Absolutely. But the amazing thing is God speaks to us every day through his word. Whenever we're struggling, whenever we're lost with something, James 1 tells tells us, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who gives generously without reproach. Don't be double-minded because you won't get it. That you won't get the answer, but believe you're going to get it. He will give you that wisdom.

So, what's the church's receptance to this? I mean, you talked about early on when you were, you know, thinking about writing this book that there was a sense of like the church would not be okay with this is certainly, you know, some theological backgrounds more than others. Pentecostal, charismatic churches less so. But I I've encountered a lot of people again with say near-death experiences less so with with miracles or answered prayer because we want that to happen in the church. But certain things like these visions and dreams and near-death experiences, I think there's a lot of Christians that don't share their stories with the church and beyond because they think we'll look at them like they're kind of crazy. Which tells me sometimes in the church we're actually more affected by naturalism than we realize. Oh, I I'm really curious. What's the response like when you talk about this to the church? And has it shifted from 12 years ago even to today? I think it really has shifted. And I think what happens is in how crazy is this, Sean? We find Muslims that don't know Jesus that hear these stories and believe them. And then some Christians that hear him and they don't believe him doesn't fit into their category. So there's one church that called and said, "We want you to come about how God's reaching Muslims and said, "We would love to." And it was a Wednesday night deal. Anyway, said, "Sure." It was a Bible church and I'd love to come. And the pastor says, "Hey, we're kind of not comfortable with this whole thing about dreams and visions and would you mind not talking about that on this one?" I said, "Oh, well, sure. I guess if that's what you want. And and he said, I I I I don't know what I feel about that. So before that Wednesday night, I received four other calls with remember what time it is and we're at this location. Yeah. Uh and by the way, make sure you don't talk about dreams and visions. Okay. So I'm sitting on the front row and another pastor comes up as the pastor's introducing me and he said hey just one more thing just by way of reminder can you not mention dreams and visions with Muslims I said hey I got that message loud and clear brother thank you so I I talk and I didn't share about dreams and visions but immediately I said okay questions this lady raises her hand is it true that Muslims are having dreams and visions about Jesus first question. So, Sean, I I just stopped for a second. I looked over at the pastor and I said, "I didn't bring it up, but you know, didn't bring it up." And so, why the resistance? Do they think that's nutty? Of course, we don't need anything more than God's word. But if it's true that in some cases, Muslims populations, like in the villages of Egypt, 50% of them read and 50% don't, you can't give them a New Testament. You can't give them more than a carpenter if and if nobody's there, no missionaries, a dream works to shake them up and then they want to know. So anyway, I think the resistance is going down. But here's the thing. I think we can't go toe-to-toe with people and just give facts. You know, if you if you want someone to know something, give them facts. If you want to change their heart, tell them a story. So give some facts. We always say a little information, a ton of inspiration. And I think a lot of times it wakes up Christians and they go, "Holy mackerel, look at what God is doing." And I didn't even think that was a possibility. So I I think it's a real good lesson for us in the body of Christ. I didn't believe it at first. I thought that's weird, you know. And then the first time I asked a Muslim was in a Bible study in Jerusalem and we former Muslim and we're going around the circle and you know Jews that were Orthodox Muslims all come to faith in Christ were giving our names. This guy right next to me right next to me says my name's Muhammad and anyway I live in East Jerusalem blah blah blah and I Sean I just looked at him and went wow Muhammad that's a pretty crazy name to have as a believer. Were you Were you just dying to get out of Islam to have a personal relationship with Jesus? Were you just ready? He goes, "No, the reverse. I thought I was right and all you guys were wrong." So, this is in the '90s. And I said, "Well, what happened, Muhammad?" He goes, "Simple. Jesus started coming to me in dreams for 30 nights in a row." And that gets your attention. 30 nights in a row. So you'd think it'd take one night after 30, that's more commentary on the person who's not believing the first time and our level of stubbornness. But I absolutely love that. You know, you shared facts and stories. You know, I mean, my father's not speaking anymore. He's 85 and uh he would always he's done about 250 debates, including Akmed Dad in the mid 80s, probably the leading Muslim apologist in the world. and he would oh he went to South Africa to debate him and uh by the way just a little plug if anybody has not seen it it's online you've got to watch it it's just absolutely fascinating debate on so many levels but in every one of his debates he'd make his case and he'd talk about his story and his experience and it just reminds me of the blind man in John nine he goes whether he's a sinner or not I don't know one thing I know is I was blind but now I see it's the evidence and it's a matter of sharing somebody's experience.

Now, one last question for you if I can and I want you to tell us a little bit more about your ministry is what is the common Muslim response to this? I've seen a lot of Muslim critiques of the Trinity, the crucifixion of Jesus, of course, the reliability of the Bible, but how much are they taking up this challenge and responding to it? And what are those kinds of challenges that they offer? Yeah. Yeah. We learned, Sean, a method to share the gospel through the Quran because like we were saying earlier, the Quran says a lot of good things about Jesus. And we memorized this and we were using it one time in Jordan. And we were working with someone, a former Muslim imam. And we were sharing with people in a village. We were sharing with people right next to the mosque about Jesus through the Quran. And we'd say, "Well, this is what, you know, the Quran says." And it it it just wasn't resonating. It was not going anywhere. And so we did that the whole week. I'm not saying God can't use it. I think he can. Maybe with scholars, you know, maybe with imams and that it works, but we were just like with common village people. And here's what we've realized. They hadn't read the Quran. So, we were telling them what's in their book, you know, and finally this former Muslim imam says, "Hey, by the way, Tom, at the end of the week, just so you know, that's the book we're trying to get him out of. Get get your ammo from the New Testament, not the Quran." And I went, "Got it. Got it." And and it just has to do with the Muslims that we're encountering. So, anyway, I think um Can you remind me of the question again? I'm sorry. Yeah. No, that's okay. I was really curious about the Muslim response to the dreams and visions and the testimonies. And I imagine some could say like when I shared the Muslim experiences, you said these are demonic, which of course is a Christian response assuming the Bible is true. I'm with you on that, but we haven't demonstrated that here. I imagine a Muslim could just say, "Oh, yeah, these are demonic. They're not real. People are being led astray because we know Islam is true." Like that's one route they could try to take. But how much, as far as you're aware, are Muslim apologists talking about this? What responses are they offering to it? That's what I'm really curious about. Yeah, I there is some there is response out there that they're saying that are false dreams. Don't listen to them. They're coming to convert you. They're crusaders. They're using all of that stuff. But I think when you share with a Muslim, hey, did you know that Jesus loves you as a person? He has a love for you and he is reaching out to your people. Actually, he's honoring your people. With all the wars and the strife and everything happening, Jesus is lifting up the Muslim world. What do you mean? He's coming to them in dreams. He's making a personal visit. I've never had a visit from Jesus. And and here it's happening with Muslims. And so, what do you think about that? They want to talk about it. They feel honored. And this is a honor and shame culture. A lot of shame, you know, that's why they kill their daughter. If they get raped, it gets rid of the problem and that. And so this is lifting them up. This is honoring them. That's what Jesus is doing. I didn't have a Jesus dream before I came to faith. And most people I know didn't, but Muslims are having that. So the common Muslim, the 60% that are not practicing Islam and even the 30% that are that aren't radical will resonate with that. They will I think the 10% maybe the 8% that would believe in jihad, you probably have to go a different direction to them. Fair enough. That makes sense.

Tom, this has been an absolute joy. I have learned so much myself and I have so many more questions about stories I want to hear. to tell people. You mentioned I found the truth.com. Anywhere else people can just kind of follow you, find this evidence, maybe your latest book. How can people track what you're Yeah. Yeah. So, you can go to Uncharted Ministries. Uh Uncharted, unchared Ministries. It's hard to spell. And you know, we're on Amazon. Have a bunch of books and that. And praise God like you books are going into Europe because there's problems that they have with Muslims and the you know like with your books there's apologetic same questions there the same questions here. So there's a lot out there. We do a podcast every other week going to about once a week and I found the truth.com will blow your mind. these former Muslims that love Jesus. These are stories that are just um it just will warm your heart to see what Jesus is doing personally one- on-one with these Muslims. They come to faith in Christ. We interviewed a guy, Sean, that has a $25 million bounty on his head. Brother Rasheed. 25 million. Wow. And um but he's just got a gentle answer. Remind your dad was had winsome. You're the same way. You're like, "Your dad winsome." Growing up with these imams, it'd be easy to lose it if you're getting yelled at, but your dad was just winsome, loving, kind of a joke here and there, you know, and that's the way you got to be that we don't get rattled. I love it.

Tom, again, such a joy. Really appreciate you carving out the time to talk with me. Appreciate your work. just prayers on you and I hope folks follow what he's doing. But also make sure you hit subscribe because doing Muslim apologetics is something we're doing more and more here on this channel. Stories of former Muslims, dreams and visions like we talked about today and other ways in the world. Uh make sure you hit subscribe. Got a lot of fascinating topics coming up you won't want to miss. And just like Tom, you too can come to Biola actually school theology. We have an apologetic program. We distinctly have classes on understanding and reaching Muslims in our master's program. We would love to have you come in. I teach on the resurrection class on the problem of evil, biblical sexuality, and more. Information is below. Tom, let's do this again. Thanks so much for coming. I love it. I want to come out there. Need to Joanne and I met at Biola. We need to get out there again. Oh, please do. Let's have lunch. We'll hang out. We'll connect. Maybe shoot some videos. That would be an absolute joy. That'd be great. Thank you, Sean. [Music]