Transcription
你好，欢迎回到个性黑客播客。我叫乔·马克·维特，我是安东尼奥·道奇。所以，就在几周前，安东尼奥，我们完成了个性剖析师培训。我们最近一次的培训在西雅图，而西雅图有棕榈树。我在播客里提过吗？我提过很多次了。我就是无法释怀。我就是无法释怀。我以前去过西雅图，但这次我[音乐]注意到了棕榈树，>>至少在费德勒尔韦和西塔克地区。我没去过西雅图市区。>>我猜是因为活动结束后，我们去了维多利亚，不列颠哥伦比亚，>>横跨普吉特海湾。顺便说一句，你现在正在收听或观看，你从未做过这件事。那是一个美丽的加拿大城市，加拿大西南部。>>是的。>>你以前去过，但我我从未去过。>>维多利亚是一个美丽的城市。>>是的。活动结束后，我们去了那里住了大约3天。我的意思是，我在太平洋西北地区的时候，一直都很冷。我穿着一件这是在五月份，我穿着一件夹克>>整个活动期间。当然在维多利亚。>>公平地说，那时的气温异常低。>>嗯，还有这个嗯，[笑声]好的。当然。>>大约低了10度，10度左右。>>是的。我的意思是，有一天我们在雷尼尔山上遇到了暴风雪。就像冰雨一样。我好吧，我>>[笑声]>>我承认。但维多利亚也有棕榈树。这就是我想说的，尽管我冷得要命，>>我真不敢相信加拿大也有棕榈树。我敢打赌大多数人不会相信加拿大，加拿大大陆，嗯，这是一个岛屿，但它离加拿大大陆很近。离温哥华不远。>>温哥华。温哥华。[清嗓子]谢谢。>>他们有棕榈树。我简直惊叹于这些>>小小的幼苗。那些矮矮的，最多也就10英尺高。但这已经很棒了，因为我住在宾夕法尼亚州，我从来没有能够哦，你在这里种不了棕榈树。>>嗯，我认为这对你来说如此重要的原因是因为你曾经做过一个理想的一天练习。>>是的。>>这已经是很久以前了，大概是15到20年前。你在理想的一天练习中提到的一件事是，你想醒来，看着窗外，看到棕榈树>>和阳光>>和阳光。>>西雅图就有其中一个，>>对吗？[笑声]>>它有其中一个。>>没错。所以， wherever there's palm trees, now it becomes a consideration for your potential ideal days. You're like, "Oh, I could live here." And so, um, but you're right. Seattle has one of those. [laughter] >> To be fair, there is sunshine. >> It just doesn't bring warmth with it. >> It's beautiful sunshine, but it was, you know, colder. It was I would say it was like March weather here in Pennsylvania, >> but it was again unseasonably cold. >> All right. And you don't you don't like to uh to believe me on that one, but I I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and even I know it was a little colder. Anyway, but the point of all of this is >> the point is we were at Profiler Training. >> We ran a Profiler training uh 5-day live event in Seattle, Washington or near Seattle, Washington. >> It was a fantastic event. >> It was an amazing event. >> One of the best ones we've ever done. >> It was It was actually really great. >> We had over 70 people in the So So we're starting to get back to some precoid lockdown levels of numbers of people. So I'm really happy about that. We've been rebuilding our live events >> since the the decimation that was the lockdowns. >> That's right. >> And people came from all over the world. We had people from Australia, >> Asia, >> y >> uh you know, Hong Kong, we had people from Europe. >> Yep. >> Uh Turkey, there's a woman there from Turkey. Like we had people from all over the world come in for this program and obviously United States and and even Canada. Even the Canadians came. It was so close. >> That's right. >> And um it was a wonderful event. We had Dr. Darian Nardi as our guest. We did we had EEG brain imaging going on and Daria was teaching a class teaching practitioners how to be EEG Yeah. >> brain image practitioners. >> He wasn't just a guest, he was an instructor this time. >> True. >> Yep. >> Yeah. So he's a guest speaker in the evenings and then he was doing this during the day teaching. >> Uh we had an advanced profiling class running where people were learning after they had taken the 101 and the basics were learning more advanced personality profiling techniques. Mhm. >> And we also had Gary Williams teaching a personality coaching course which is talking about okay now that you understand how to help somebody arrive their best fit type >> what are the methods and mechanisms of coaching them to understand how to improve their lives relationships career etc. And first of all that's so wonderful because it's been a vision of ours for a while. We've we've imagined multiple classes running >> and almost a conference format like an academy that comes together twice a year. So, it's fun for you and me and Tony to sit there with the 101 students. You know, we had these new students there, too, training to become personality profilers and and so the vision is kind of being realized. We're working with people. And I love the I love the day when we get to do embodiment exercises. Those are the the best two days of the entire experience. Anyway, the whole point of all of that is a setup that while we were at this event on the one morning, it was I think the second morning we were there, you and I gave almost an impromptu talk. Usually in the mornings, we have the entire group come together in the main room on the main in the main stage room because we have a main stage, then we have multiple breakout rooms and in the one morning day, everyone came together and we talked about this concept of turning pro. Mhm. >> I'm not going to give much more detail because I want you to hear if you're listening or watching right now, I want you to hear this talk because we've gathered some students. So remember this is in the context all that preamble to say this is in the context of the personality profiler training event. Mhm. >> The audience are students who have spent 6 months studying digital content online and coming to Zoom calls and Q&As's and working really hard to understand the mechanics and the method of conversational profiling. And during these five days, they're in training every day. Like day one, we do rapport and day two and three, we do a lot of the embodiment. We keep working toward everyone at the end of the week to be able to do a live personality profiling session with a volunteer. And so we invite people from and you maybe you're listening right now and you were a volunteer. Uh we invite volunteers to come from the podcast, the community and have a profiling session. And so we're looking to create skilled profilers through this experience. That's what the training is about, right? >> So people come to learn a skill. >> And the reason I say that too is because it's important what we're going to talk about in this clip. this idea of turning pro because I I insert two ideas in this turning pro at operational level. I'll just leave it at that because >> you got to listen to what how we talk about this in the clip. >> Anything else you want to say before we go to that clip? >> No, I think we should roll it. >> All right. So then we're going to take you right now to the main stage at the personality profiler training event in Seattle, Washington as we talk about the concept of turning pro. I get under the influence of ideas sometimes. >> Really? >> Sometimes they're they're get in my mind worms and I can't get them out. >> It is. >> One of the uh one of the um materials I'm reading right now, I'm rereading, man, is it a short book. I recommend this for everybody. Uh there's a gentleman named Stephen Presfield who wrote a book called The War of Art. If you guys have ever read this book, um I read that several years ago. And then he wrote a second book which I well he's written multiples but another book kind of a follow-up to that that is called Turning Pro. And the premise it's a very short read. I think you could read it probably in less than an hour. It's a very very short book. Like the chapters are two pages long. It's amazing. Like you should read this book. It's a really cool book. Um anyway I'm rereading it and I was reminded of the theme of how Steven Presfield started this book and he basically says you know most humans approach the world with two big frameworks. They come with the framework of something's wrong, there's an illness, something damaged, mental health or uneducated framework and we have to heal or educate ourselves out of that. Like that's the one framework that people have like there's stuff like unhealthy and it means needs to be made healthy. We need to look for cure or solution all this stuff. He said the other framework often that the world we we engage with is the framework of morality where things are wrong, unethical, morally broken and we have to create a moral purity and these are the big two frameworks that dominate our world often worldview how people approach life and the universe and everything. and he said, 'I would like to introduce a third uh framework here that I think is very important that no one really talks about and it's the framework of going from amateur to professional, amateur to pro. He said, I think this is a much more helpful framework for our world. And by the way, if you're tracking, I kind of immediately look at this as a uh a healing transformation. And now this uh the uh >> achievement achievement one at the end, right? The turning pro one, I can almost map it to that other model. But that turning pro, man, does that resonate with me >> because I think as an ENFP, I can be very uh bombastic. I can talk myself into a lot of jobs. You know, I've done this in the past or do I know how to do the job? I can definitely get the job kind of thing, no matter if it's a an actual job or just an opportunity. Um and I'm I can make stuff up and figure stuff on the fly. So, I'm a jack of all trades kind of guy, right? I can do a lot of things sort of well, but not perfectly and I don't really get proficient at them. And so, if you have that as your and a lot of people in this room probably have a very similar, even if you're not ENFP, you probably a lot of people here, you probably have the ability to kind of figure things out as you go and hack stuff together and make stuff work in your life. Probably have a lot of opportunity for that. Most people in this room, I think, have a similar experience. But I think if you have that ability, sometimes we lose sight of just being able to really focus in on something and become really really proficient where it becomes profession. Yes, potentially getting paid for it, but even more important, our vocation, something that we vocalize in the world, we bring forth to the world is the thing that we're here to bring to the world. And um I I think it's I I think that it is it is time for us in the space of profiling in a in a writ large way to turn pro to turn pro. And that doesn't mean necessarily going and making money from it. But I think that you know amateur the word amateur I think it's a French word potentially there's a root to it. >> It comes from a more which means love >> which means love. So amateur doesn't mean you're bad at something. It doesn't mean you're like not proficient at it. It just means that you love to do it. You do it out of passion, which is great. But adding on to amateur, this idea of going turning pro, turning professional, something you profess into the world. Again, we we frame it in Western culture as something you get paid for, which that can be something you profess in the world or a vocation you have, but there's a seriousness and a weight to something and a and a a sense of it like taking it with honor and approaching it from a respect and a and a level of of proficiency that you feel confident in. And I think that sometimes as especially as casual as we are, we may give this impression, oh, just do whatever, make it all your own. I think there's an important discipline to this and I think that if we're gonna literally help other humans, I think that the idea that I'm coming up with is I think we need to inject into this culture here at profiler training and hopefully it will seep out into other areas of people that use personality types and other therapeutic models from young and other things of this idea of okay maybe I don't make my living from this but that doesn't mean I can't treat this like like I'm a professional like I'm going to treat this in a serious way. It's going to matter. I'm gonna I'm gonna respect the system and the way that, you know, was kind of created. I'm going to ensure that I help the legacy of it. So, we've done things like, as an example, to put money where our mouth is. We're trying to, and I think Joyce works with API as well. We we're really trying to partner with APIs a lot. And Wednesday night, I've invited one of our the API president of this chapter here in Seattle to come and just share for like five minutes. I think it's important to be tied into legacy and things that have happened before. API stands for the Association of Psychological Type and they have different chapters. They used to be a really big organization back in like the 1980s and 90s when the corporate America and Western corporations even in Europe were really into MyersBriggs. Like they had grown really big and this was the this was kind of the the place you would go like for a profile training experience back then. Like as close as you're going to get to this experience, that is what you would do back in the back in the day. And um anyway, the Association of Psychological Type I think they have I mean Isabel founded this right in like 1980 or something. And so there's a legacy there of the person that invented the system founded this this organization. And the organization in some ways is on life support because of atrophied numbers and all this. It just isn't what it once was. But there's a group of people that want to keep it going and keep it, you know, solid. And I think that's important. >> Well, >> now it's not necessarily my personal mission, but I think I want to support it because I want to turn pro in this. >> And there's standardbearers. Yes. >> Right. And um there's a uh [clears throat] excuse me a bit of a wild west feel about an an industry that we feel is burgeoning like this is um [clears throat] they talk in marketing they talk a lot about mega niches. Mega niches are things like health and wellness, relationships, um career moneym or wealth generation. But we think the next mega niche is identity. That's [clears throat] what it feels like to me anyway. It feels like it's going to if it isn't already right. It feels like a mega niche. And this is um this is a system that helps people sort identity. Uh and it doesn't require it doesn't require anything that is necessarily triggering like it doesn't require a religious or a political affiliation. It doesn't require things that are you know that create um you know discord at Thanksgiving. It's I mean somebody might not like type but it's not it's like it's just kind of a it's hard for them to communicate or articulate why, right? They usually say talking points from some article they wrote, you know, read 10 years ago. But as far as the the system itself and helps people with identity in a way that's hard to uh well, I mean, we're all here because of it, right? It helped us figure out who we are, helped us with our relationships, it helped us with all the other mega niches. And so um association of psychological type APS and those kinds of um th the standard bearers from the past that remind us that this legacy is built on something that wasn't a wild west that it was like the the roots of it are therapy the roots of it is psychoanalysis and um and even though it became uh very much a career uh instrument and kind of got co-opted in um in uh in the business world that's not its point of origin. Its point of origin is not only therapy, but specifically wholeness of self, like to understand oneself to a point where um you're not divided. Uh you probably have heard me say this about a million times now, but the word individuation, which is what Yung was on about the whole time, means not divided, right? In not divided, divided. And so the point of it is to find our whole selves. That's the purpose. And the standards from the past remind us that there's a there's like a bigger mission to all of this. Not just talking about type or excuse [clears throat] me, arguing about type, but doing real introspection, real selfanalysis, real growth and development. And as Joel talks about the difference between amateur and professional, amateur comes from the word amore, which is love or to do something for the love of it. But professional actually means a vow. It means to profess, right? It's a value take to hold a standard. And so you're communicating when you go professional, you are communicating to the world that you're going to hold a certain standard. That's what you're saying when you go professional. And like Joel said, we've conflated that with getting paid for something. But just because you get paid for something doesn't mean that you're staying aligned with a standard or making a vow of the standard, right? >> In fact, in some ways, it almost sometimes undermines people's ability to do that. And so, um, so when Joel talks about going from amateur to professional, it doesn't mean you stop doing it for the love of it, but it means that you're holding yourself, uh, more accountable how you're using it. >> Yeah. It's not an orph. It's an and frame, >> right? I love it and I'm going to profess to the world or vow to the world that I'm going to hold myself to a certain standard. And I think if we do that with type, you're going to see a lot less of those articles. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because I think I think one of the challenges people have with type is that, you know, it's like um you get your hands on it and it's like a kid with a fire hydrant or something. It's like all of a sudden you're just blasting it to everybody and you're like, "No, I know your type and I know who you are." And people like, "Okay, you know, cool it." Um and so when you get that sort of energy, that initial love, that initial amore, uh it's really easy to kind of overdo it a little bit. But as we become more and more proficient, as we become more and more professional and vow to a standard, I think it's a a lot easier to build credibility in the model because people see how you're showing up. They see that this is not something that you're casually bequething upon other people a knowledge that you don't actually have upon, you know, about them or bequething type, but you're actually interfacing with them in a more sophisticated way. And now they want to know how how you know what you know. >> Yeah. And then I was speaking to a profile training student recently who was like, you know, I really like profiler training. [cough] I [snorts] like the profiling aspect of it, but I wish you guys just offered a course that was just about all the material, the content and the discussion without the profiling part. I think I would have really appreciated that. And I said, "No, you wouldn't have. You would have that would not have worked because the the requirement to perform and operate something is why it works. If you take that away, we're going right back to what people do online and in discussion. They tokenize these ideas. They capture them in these abstract symbols and they trade them like trading cards in conversation and it's arguments and dis and disagreement and who knows what's right and no that person's this type and this person's this. It's like let's cut through all that BS. Let's get down to an operational level. What does it look like to operate type? What does it look like to actually perform it in a performative way at that moment? [cough] Now we [snorts] meet the information at the point of operation. We're not up here in this abstraction. I mean that there's value to that. I'm not suggesting there's no value to that, but there is certainly a limit to the value of that. The true value is when you start to actually affect people's real lives and your own life in a profound way. And so the thing I'm on the hunt for, how do we get more operation into this system? How do we get more proficient, you know, actual doing something with it, performing something? This is why EEG Dario, it's a very big attractor to me. It's very tangible. It's something that is actionable and it's got a practition to it, right? It's got something that you can do with this. >> Well, it communicates a timeline, too. Yes. >> Where I came from, where I'm at now, and where I'm going. >> And it's and it also I think people that may not be super into personality types and things. I mean, Darren, who you'll see, he's coming tonight and he'll be here all week. he was talking about when they were in Japan and he was showing pictures to his friends back home of like the EEG for example they were like I don't even know what this is but whatever you're doing in that picture I want you to do that to me and he's like I've never had anything in my life out of context people are just asking for like it's so weird he's like whether I'll pay me for it or not that's another question but they're definitely interested so so and the other thing we're working on too if everybody has the like the card decks everybody have a card deck have you seen those flying around I have a box shipped in hopefully today or tomorrow so if you want to get a a deck. We just got like 10 or 12 decks we bought to bring. Um I was at my friend Joel's house this past weekend. He's also named Joel INFJ. We were where his son who I'm suspecting is like a 10-year-old uh ENTJ was sitting there and tell him about type. I'm like trying to tell him about type. It's not I pull the deck of cards out. I lay oh. And he starts like literally picking the cards up and moving them around and operating with them and asking questions like but this so this is my mom's type. Okay. Then she's got he's throwing the harmony card down or the effectiveness card down and his dad's the harmony and he's like okay so I see and he's like talk and his 10-year-old and I'm going around and I'm like things are unlocking in my brain to go there is something about the operational level in a very tangible way around this that I am on the hunt for and so so the two broad themes are turning pro turning professional taking this with a vow with a seriousness with the weight that I think it actually is because you're you're actually addressing real people's lives. This is how we beat the machines, by the way, folks, because it's coming for us. Within probably two years, you will never have to ever see an email you do not want to see ever again. Ever. AI is going to just handle this for us. Probably not to our betterment. Like, we're like, yeah, spam's going to go away, but then we're not going to have to be confronted with anything we want to be confronted with anymore in the future. We can curate our world exactly to our taste. This is not going to be good for us at all. Well, and who said it's going to be predicting uh based on habits, not based on cognition, >> not preferences, >> not preferences, >> but on your habits, which is remember we talked about yesterday, like [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, so it's going to go what you do, not even what you prefer. That's the that's the horrible part about AI. There are flaws in AI, and it's it's got things that'll work out. I mean, there are really good things, too. I mean, one thing is technology will just disappear >> around us, right? We It's the clunkiest thing now to pull out a phone and thunk clunk chunk suck in a phone and send it. Somebody pull their phone out and read it and like that's going away, right? It'll just be around us and surrounding us. We'll we actually will unlock our humanity. I think in a lot of ways we'll have to give our privacy for it. But we'll our humanity will be back center front etc. As long as we're with people, technology is going to be in the background. I think that's the good thing about AI. It's going to help us sort mass amounts of data. There's a lot of good things coming. But the one thing is we have to now just like now I mean we don't have to go to the gym if we don't want to right evolutionary pressure. We don't have to like be in good health or take care of our bodies in any way. We have enough comfort. We could probably live for a very long time with modern medicine without actually taking care of our health. So we have to be consciously attuned and we have to be proactive about it. Right? That's what we know. Anything we want to do now, we don't have evolutionary pressure of like I got to get the food. I got to get up and go on the hunt today to get the food because it's just in the grocery store like next door. So we don't have to do that anymore. So we have to now create our own evolutionary pressure for ourselves. We have to get get up and actually do the intentional things. So I think the same thing with AI is coming. So that's why I think I'm I'm saying this being professional is the intentional things and then looking for the operational level of stuff. I love the fact that Tina where's Tina? You guys should see what Tina brought with her over here. ISTP Tina, she went home and she created, well, she brought a prototype to last event, but she's created a prototype of like a visceral physical car model, like an actual like car. She's got a regular car, a shadow car. >> She's playing [laughter] with these concepts. She did this in her woodworking shop. Like, she's trying to bring a tangibility to this and I love it. >> Smart and adorable. >> Yeah, it's smart. [laughter] >> She's got like different different challenge like challenge modes where you pull a card and you have to like assemble the car model quickly to like do drills and practice. >> I love that cuz it's a learning tool to make it tangible. I think she's done a great job. So if you see her, you can play around with it and stuff. I don't want to do questions yet. I'm going to just let me finish this thought and we'll we can take questions in a moment or whatever. Um so so I just that's like an example of something that's very tangible. The cards are something example of something that's very tangible, right? And I and I keep thinking about the world of tarot, right? No matter your feelings about tarot, whether you think it's spiritual and it's dangerous, that's okay. Or you just think it's an intuitive I I look to see it as like an intuitive stimulator. It's just like I threw a tarot card down, I'm like, what could that possibly mean? and I [clears throat] excuse me. My intuition has to like pattern it to my life and it just it just stimulates my intuition and my imagination. That's how I see it. I don't see it as a spiritual thing, but some people like have a little bit of resistance. Whatever your view of it is, it's very rare when people are online doing tarot channels talking about tarot theory and arguing about, no, that's not the right major arcana. This other one's the right major arcana. Like, there's no debates online like that. People aren't arguing about that. Why? Because when you look up information about a tarot card, you're in the middle of a reading for yourself or somebody else. You're operating something. You're doing something. You're you're at the level of gameplay, quote unquote, metaphorically. And then you're going to go look up the information to help you do the thing. So that's profiling, coaching, EEG, card decks, like anything that's tangible, that's operational. That's where it comes alive. That's where it makes a difference in people's lives. So this is what I'm on the hunt for. And I want you all to help me. just keep your eyes open for these kinds of things, these opportunities to make things tangible. It's harder and it's not as fun sometimes because you got to turn a professional to do it. So, a lot of people want to just say, "I'm an expert. I'm this." Whatever. And they don't want to put the hard work in to make it tangible and land with real humans like what you're doing with profiling. So, I'm really encouraged by everybody here putting this work in. >> Yeah. >> Good job. Because you're actually meeting the rubber to the road. You're making something real in your life. You are in the process of turning pro if you want to and you're on the pathway for that. So that's kind of our theme this week. This idea of turning professional, creating that seriousness, that weight, and that operational level of type. I sound like I'm mad. I'm not mad. I'm just passion. I was like, is Joel upset? IS DAD UPSET? WHAT? NO, [laughter] it's fine. I'm just I'm just like really passionate about this and I think this is something that we're going to be talking about this week because this is an idea that's been coming to me and I would like to share it with all of you and and have you, you know, take this and and I think it we're we're more than if I just have the idea to spread it and then see what happens with it. I think that would be really cool. Okay, so that was us on the main stage at our our most recent personality profiler training event in Seattle, Washington talking to over 70 students and alumni that were in the room, many who who were just training for the first time to become a personality profiler. >> And again, a lot of these people put a lot of work into being there. And >> yes, >> I think the idea of turning pro is an important message for us to land because I think a lot of people want to actually go and make a career out of this. They want to turn pro in a way that's making money. But I think a lot of people just I I'll tell you this. We had an ENTJ, his name is Major. He came to our our personality life path mentorship event the end of it. We had a live podcast that day. He wasn't actually in the program life path, but we had a live podcast that Saturday night in Philadelphia a few months ago. >> Mh. >> And on that podcast, in fact, I think it was just a few episodes ago, we saw that clip. >> Yes. >> Where he asked like, "How can I make this become more real? I've studied everything I can study. I've I know the theory. I know. I know everything. What's next? And on that episode, just a couple episodes ago, >> we said go to ProFire Training, >> right? [laughter] And he did. >> Yeah, he did. >> He did. He came to the to the the program. And >> and I think I think he had a good experience. I think he came up afterwards like, "Okay, this is this is the real deal. Like, this connected this in a real way. >> I'm glad I joined this." >> Yes. >> Because it was it was a whole different He's like, "I've never experienced anything like this before." >> Yeah. like it was a profound experience for me to connect this in a real way in my life. >> Yeah. Well, and I think I that's what I love about profiling. It requires us. It forces us as maybe people who started out as type enthusiasts, which I did, right? Like I was just super into, you know, MyersBriggs and I was like super into type for a long time. And learning how to profile was actually the beginning of me turning professional. So, the way that I figured out the methodology was through putting in a bunch of reps. I just I had to I had to come up with a methodology for profiling because I had so many people asking me, you know, how to how to figure out their type >> because you were a life coach at the time that wanted this skill added in. >> Exactly. >> And so, you were like, "Okay, I know life coaching. I need to also add this other thing I know." >> That's right. >> But right now, it's theoretical and this has to land in a real way for people. >> Exactly. like there was actual stakes that there was there was me giving giving advice and people were paying for the privilege of the advice and then they were letting me know they were field testing it. So to come up with somebody's best fit type accurately and I initially I was relying on things like assessments and tests and I was sending people to you know go get um go get some sort of assessment and I was noticing that the assessment wasn't always accurate. No, nothing is 100% accurate and that includes profiling. Like nothing is 100% accurate because people are complex and type is complex and you're trying to find the center of the vin diagram of complex people or a complex individual and a complex system. So, it's always going to be a challenge, but there are ways to get more accurate and uh and then I ended up having an opportunity where I could put in a lot of reps. I I came up with a methodology and then I just practiced and practiced and practiced and I ca I ended up at an event um at a unrelated event from ours that afforded me the ability to do like 50 to 100 profiling sessions within a very short amount of time. And that was when I got to the end of like like really dialing it in. But that was just the beginning for me too, right? Even though I had done so many, it was it was like the beginning of me figuring out what was important about all of this. Yeah. >> Because initially it was about getting the type right. That was my I think that that's what it is for everybody, right? You want to understand the system well enough to get your own and other people's type accurately. >> But it didn't take long for me to realize that the magic of it was that it was forcing me to apply what I knew. It was a forced application where the p the people that I was doing these you know these sessions with these profiling sessions with would then um they would live it out and then they would give me feedback around it because a lot of them ended up being either you know uh coaching clients or people that I had a relationship with that had asked me advice and uh so the first the first gift of for like being required to make it applicationoriented not just theoretical was that I got feedback on whether or not I was doing a good job, right? Like I was I was actually getting feedback on the person being like I don't know if this actually resonates with me and I wasn't always accurate in the early days. And then uh the second gift it gave me was the extraordinary variety that people can come in within the same type cluster. meaning that, you know, an an INFJ is not an INFJ is not an INFJ. The only thing that ties all INFJs together is that they share the same cognitive wiring, but it doesn't mean that they share all the same behaviors. It doesn't mean that they share the same personality. It doesn't mean they share the same outlook on life. They certainly have a wide variety of life experiences. And so the the vast array of of um variety within an individual type became really obvious over time. And I started truly appreciating just how many different packages Yeah. >> the same cognitive preferences can come in. >> You definitely just created a mind worm for somebody. >> You said, you know, not all INFJs are the same personality. That's going to confuse somebody listening right now. >> Yeah. Sorry, I meant traits. Personality traits. So traits are the behaviors. Exactly. They're not the same. Excuse me. They're not the same person. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like the same personality type, >> the same cognition, but not the same outcome. >> That's right. Exactly. >> Which a lot of people are judging personality type based on outcome or behavior, not based on cognition. >> Right. And that's why the system is so complicated is because it's not a behaviorist model. In fact, that's one of the reasons why like the psychological world is has a really ambivalent relationship to it. >> Yeah. is it's not a behaviorist model. >> People want it to be. >> They really do. >> Even people into type want it to be because behavior is observable from the from an outsider. >> It feels more objective or something. >> It feels more objective and it also feels uh more controllable. It feels more predictable and >> well and it also puts me as the egoic person in control, >> right? >> Because I get to tell you based on your behavior who you are, >> right? >> So it builds my ego up from a practitioner. If if I'm doing a profiling session or I'm talking to somebody and they calibrate me and go, "Well, that doesn't resonate." >> Well, I have to confront that in myself >> and I have to contend with that, which stretches me and grows me, I think. >> Yep. >> But I can see why maybe somebody wouldn't want that because that's that's harder. It's a lot harder, >> right? And profiling, it's an it's effectively an interview based on strong rapport, right? A big piece of what we teach in profile training is rapport building. So it's a it's a interview that allows the person to show you their cognition over time through a conversation like we say a psyche to psyche experience. >> Yeah. >> And so through all of that you in in profiling you eventually get to a moment when you bring them in and you co-create it by saying this is what I'm seeing and are you resonating with that? And then the person like you just said the person gets to give some push back if they don't resonate with it. Now, as profilers, it's on us to have good descriptions, good unbiased descriptions of what these type preferences mean, but the person can give some push back, and it's not based on their behavior. Now, you're asking them how they show up, but the most important question we always say in profiling is why? Like, what's going on underneath? Why are you doing this? Because the same behavior can show up in all 16 types. You know, like how many how many times have I got playing with my kids from just about every personality type or spending time with my children? Well, that's that's biological, right? Like we all we we all have a biological imperative to spend time with our children or at least pay attention to them. >> Yeah. >> And so, um that's more about who we the quality of our character, not our type preferences. >> And so, uh there's a [clears throat] uh there's a deeper aspect to it, which is a feature, not a bug. Now, it's a bug when you're trying to type people. It's very difficult to use behavior only and it's hard sometimes to um to translate their the answers around behaviors the wise into and interpret it into cognition. That's that's actually the art of it. That's really fundamentally what you're doing when you put in the reps. >> But based on the talk that we just um presented which is going professional, going pro means not just loving this but also having some weight to what you're doing. And as we said, professional is based on the word profess, which is vow. And originally, it was used in terms of religious vows. It was like the vows a priest made towards his his new profession of >> professed. >> That's right. >> Professed something to the world. >> He professed a vow. >> Yeah. >> And so profiling puts us in a position where we are vowing that we are going to have integrity in what we're doing. that we're not going to just bequaith types upon people, but we're going to show up in a way where we're g we're trying to gift somebody with expanded self-nowledge with an awareness about things that are not just observable from the outside world, but something that's deeply personal and intimate to them, which is their cognitive preferences and wiring. >> Yeah. And so when you enter the space the value you're taking I mean I I think it tight personally I've said this multiple times in many places I think it's a psychosspiritual tool. I think it's both psychological but also spiritual because it allows us to individuate and come to what Carl Young called whole self. So you're giving somebody an ascended level of self-standing that they might not have noodled out their entire lives. They might have kind of gotten some pattern, but now you're providing language and it has the potential, not always, but it has the potential to really accelerate a a person's self-awareness to bring unconscious things into conscious material. There's a lot around it that is in my opinion um a responsibility. >> Yeah, >> it's a responsibility. >> Well, I think it gives you a pathway or at least guard rails or scaffolding for accelerated maturity. Mhm. >> If I know more about myself and parts about myself, like you and I were talking right before this episode, we had some conversation today about my my little 10-year-old or tertiary extroverted thinking effectiveness and how pesky it is and how I have guard rails to help nurture that part of me and to help mature it and help grow that and be more it'll never be proficient or certain, but it can be mature. I can mature it a little bit and have it defer to my more parent side of myself. >> Right. >> So, I think that this really gives you a guard rail for maturation, for becoming more than you are because you have kind of language of where to go with it all. >> Yeah. >> And and you know, in the talk I I kept mentioning this idea of operational level. >> I brought in a couple concepts. I talked about our profiling cards. I should have a deck in here. I don't have a deck in front of me. It's dumb of me to come in the studio without that one. Um but we have profiling cards and and you know I call them profiling cards personite profiling cards but in a way they're they're understanding card you could use them in any other capacity and and they're framed in our car model method because it's a really easy way to understand cognitive functions and utilize these. I've seen the power of that and I'm looking at the operational level of them going that's the level of type where I mean can you imagine like on a camping trip or at your college campus or at your office if someone had a deck of those in their pocket they're like oh what does this mean to be introvert extrovert and you could whip some cards out and you like you make some illustrations and you start to lay out people's personality types in the office or at the summer camp or at your college or university or wherever and using these to kind of viscerally and tangibly describe something I really think people will
去接受它。我认为无论老少都会看着它然后说，“哇。”而且它感觉很真实。它感觉很深刻。我认为对于那些认为它是一种抽象系统的人来说，这就像，“嗯，这是有卡片的。这一定是合法的。”就像他们给予它更多的可信度。发生这种情况真是太奇怪了。
>> 这只是一个操作层面的例子。我认为个性画像，你知道，性格画像是另一个操作层面，我认为它能为人们带来真实世界的成果。所以，我认为我们谈论的从业余到专业的想法，即宣称某事精通并认真对待它，无论你是否要将其变成职业，并以道德来尊重它，并给予它，你知道，我们站在巨人的肩膀上，如卡尔·荣格，你知道，伊莎贝尔和凯瑟琳以及许多其他心理分析师和写过关于此的人，以及写过书并研究过的人，有一个完整的数据库的研究论文，米洛数据库，它深入研究了各种关于类型和所有这些的研究。
>> 而且，顺便说一句，所有这些都很棒，然后就像，好吧，我们有了这百年的知识积累，好吧，现在我们来做点什么吧，伙计们，让我们不要，我们不要，这知识积累可以进一步发展，我保证，但现在魔法不在那里，现在，让我们把它从16种类型扩展到32种或64种类型，然后我们就可以开始了，这可能很有价值，但如果它有了操作连接，现在它就非常有价值了，就像我们在进入实践之前还能扩展一个系统多少？伙计们，让我们做点什么吧。这就是我的想法，对吧？我没有>> 是的，我没有，我没有生气。我只是说我只是，我只是对此充满热情。
>> 啊，我[哼了一声]我们刚进行了一次谈话，我们，我不记得了，我不记得我们具体在和谁说话。也许是我们的性格画像培训学生和问答环节。嗯，但是有一个问题，就是是否适合不断扩展这个系统，对吧？让它变得越来越复杂，看到越来越多的角度，嗯，我说我完全理解其中的吸引力。我理解扩展它的吸引力，并带来更多的细微差别。嗯，但我想，为了做到这一点，如果我们想要负责任地对待这个工具的起源点，我们就要学会如何应用它，并从我们添加的每一层中榨取精华。
>> 是的。
>> 所以，有应用，有知识，而知识基本上是应用的信息。在二分法层面有应用。在气质层面有应用。在认知功能层面有应用。我认为在亚型层面也有应用。就像在所有这些不同的层面，在16种类型层面都有应用。当我们真正理解这种应用如何丰富我们的生活，并且我们通过经验理解这些信息，而不仅仅是知识库，而不仅仅是理论上的，而是通过经验，那么我们就准备好添加更多了。是的。是的。
>> 然后，当我们添加更多时，我们通过经验来理解它。当我说的通过经验时，我的意思是，我们已经积极地利用它来改善我们的生活以及与他人的关系。我们利用它来更好地理解自己，以便我们能够成为更完整的自己，我们能够拥有卡尔·荣格所说的更好的角色，或者我们与他人互动交流的能力。我们与自我有着更强的联系。呃，我们自身中想要做得更好、成为更好的人的那一部分，我们正在从阴影中获取内容，就像我们之前无意识的、未意识到的事情一样，并将这些信息转移到有意识的意识中，然后我们就可以接触到那些声音，那个真正的声音，那个内在的声音，那个完整的自我，那个真正安静的声音，需要一些静止才能真正听到的声音，我认为这是通过类型作为一种入门方式可以获得的。所以，嗯，所以我认为系统的扩展是完全可以理解的，但我认为我们谈论的从业余到专业，是我们出于对理论的热爱而扩展系统，那是一回事。这样做是完全可以理解的。这一切都有一种吸引力。但我想，当我们从那里走向专业时，我们不仅仅是出于爱而扩展系统。我们是出于责任感而理解更多。嗯，对理解我们完整的自我负责，对以一种能为系统带来可信度的方式出现负责，这样人们就会说，“你如何能够将这一点体现在你的生活中？”或者“你如何能够成为你现在这样的人？”嗯，这来自于我从一位荣格分析师和苏菲派大师那里读到的一个想法，他说，当你成为一个做这种工作的人时，你身上会有一种传染性的平静，其他人会在你的存在中平静下来，因为你不会排斥自己身上的任何东西，所以他们会本能地知道你也不会排斥他们身上的任何东西。
>> 是的。
>> 然后这就会变成一种传染性的渴望，你知道，就像，“我也要那个，”对吧？就像，我想要一点那个。然后如果你说，“嗯，这是我使用过的工具之一，”这就为系统增加了可信度，因为它不仅仅是一种创造更多区分的方法。它是一种实际做相反的事情的方法，那就是，嗯，不是相反，而是创造自我的整合。
>> 是的。
>> 嗯，所以，我认为关于类型，走向专业化的想法，嗯，我的意思是，你可以参加职业画像培训。这是在生活中建立纪律的一种方式。但它真的取决于你如何看待你与这个系统的关系。嗯，无论你是否参加这样的项目，每个人都可以从根本上整合并应用这些非常强大的信息，这个非常强大的系统，在他们的日常生活中，成为一个更与他们的完整自我相关联的人。
>> 是的。而且我认为，我正在尝试把自己放在一个22岁年轻人的位置。只是为了练习，就像我在想，好吧，如果我在[笑声]大学里，我收听了一个播客，一个女人在谈论，一个男人在谈论>> 完整的自我和卡尔·荣格。
>> 是的。
>> 我可能会，我不知道我会怎么想，但我会说，“看，我只需要和我室友相处好。他这个月没付房租>> 我有点沮丧，他有点混蛋，类型能帮我解决这个问题吗？”
>> 是的。所以你的意思是，你面前有关于你可以如何发展这种心理灵性等等的愿景，但我想很多人不走上职业化道路或以真实的方式联系这一点的原因是他们认为它必须是这样的。
>> 是的。
>> 它必须是这种神秘的心理灵性，这种“哇哇”的邪教式的，这是怎么回事？我必须达到这个水平吗？我我不认同这一点。
>> 我是ENTP。我经常辩论。这是因为我是ENTP吗？对吧？这就是那个水平。我明白了。是的。我我想说的是，我认为操作层面可以是，我不认为你必须，虽然我意思是，如果你正在观看和收听这个节目，请加入职业画像培训。
>> 是的，你绝对应该去。
>> 如果你想把某样东西变成，你知道，把这个性格类型这个想法变成一种真正的 the methodology，那将是一次不可思议的经历。它会做到这一点，就像它确实能帮助你获得一个框架，说明你如何以实践者的方式走向职业化。
>> 嗯。
>> 但是，你知道，使用那些卡片和某人，比如室友，来解决一个挑战，或者与另一个人分享一些关于沟通障碍的事情，或者他们如何更好地沟通。嗯，除了画像环节，还有其他操作层面。显然，
>> 我们希望你这样做，因为我们经营这个项目，我很乐意你加入我们，我想亲自见到你。我认为你会在那里获得一次绝佳的经历，你会很兴奋，认识很多很酷的人，并学到一项技能。
>> 这非常有趣。
>> 是的。你只会说，“哦天哪，我为什么10年前就没做这个？”但我知道不是每个人都这样，也不是每个人都因为这个原因听这个播客。他们有时听是为了，“我只想和我室友相处好。”所以操作层面可能是，“哦，我的室友这样做是因为>> 他们是感知者，这就是为什么他们不知道他们应该，比如，不要把外套扔在沙发上。”
>> 完全正确。而且不给它开脱，也不只是心里知道，而是>> 理解它，也许也给自己一些东西，比如，好吧，然后解决冲突。那是类型的一个操作层面。
>> 绝对。
>> 对吧？你的伴侣，你的室友，随便谁。或者我想象一个可能中年甚至年长的人，我们正在谈论，你知道，中年，你有机会个体化，真正地等等，但是现在听的人刚刚失业了，或者他们被裁员了，他们正在努力应对，好吧，我需要这种类型来帮助我了解我的才能是什么，以便我能做下一件我应该做的事情，我的职业生涯。
>> 是的。或者我只是准备好改变了。就像，我受够了。我受够了做这份我做了15年的工作，我知道它不适合我，我正在尝试，但我不知道我需要做什么改变。
>> 那是我们个人生活中的90%左右。我知道>> 字面上，他们都说，我就是不知道接下来是什么，但我知道有些东西。所以这是PL。但是>> 我想说的是，走向职业化并不意味着你必须成为一名从业者。
>> 走向职业化意味着，我，这就是我的看法。我看到一个系统在我的生活中以某种方式具有实际的力量。它可以是与卡片进行的有趣操作，或者与客户进行的临床画像对话。但我想它能改善沟通。我想它能改善自我理解和自我沟通。我想它能让我们了解我们的才能、我们的协调性以及我们成熟和成长的脚手架。
>> Y
>> 而且所有这些都包含大量的操作。
>> 是的。而我的鼓励是，如果你还没有为自己发现那种操作，那才是神奇的。如果你能找到一种语言作为例子，在你和你兄弟姐妹之间，你可以和他们沟通，并且你们有共享的语言，那将是一个多么强大的操作工具，他们对类型有足够的了解，能够与你互动说，“等等，那是你，你是在从你自身的哪个部分说话吗？”就像，“是的，我是在。”并诚实地说出来，并能够传达这一点，甚至不帮助别人，只是能够帮助你自己的生活在操作层面，非常有力量。但这意味你必须足够认真地对待它，投入工作去理解它，以便在发生冲突时能够做到这一点。
>> 是的。达里奥说过一句话，达里奥博士，就像你说的，他既是讲师，也是我们几次邀请的嘉宾。他说，类型不会替我们工作。它只是告诉我们有什么工作要做。
>> 是的。
>> 所以，有一个机会，你知道，就像你说的，你不想，你不想和你的兄弟姐妹，或者你的父母，或者你的孩子，或者你的同事，或者随便谁，以他们能理解的方式交谈吗？
>> 嗯，同事们永远不会理解。是的。你不能和那些[笑声]人一起工作。
>> 我是你的同事。
>> 这就是我为什么这么说。这完全是徒劳的。别担心同事。
>> 这就是我为什么没提那个。这完全没意义。
>> 你知道，我在开玩笑。有人会认真对待我的。我只是在开玩笑。
>> 你只是指向我所有人。呃，它不会告诉你，它不会告诉你，它不会为你做工作。它不是像，你自动就明白了，这就是为什么应用如此重要。这就是为什么把信息变成知识通过应用如此重要。但它确实节省了大量时间。
>> 在尝试做错误的事情上。是的。对。它说，这就是你需要做的工作，如果你做这项工作，你就会得到回报。
>> 冒着愚蠢的内向思维的风险，我区分了应用和操作。对。
>> 我认为应用是那种，我可以把某样东西应用到某物的外表上，对吧？我喜欢，就像，我真的要暴露我的无知。有没有一种化妆品叫做涂抹器或应用器？我是在给我的脸涂抹东西吗？我记得我女儿是这样吗，还是不是？
>> 是的。还有涂抹器，它们是用来涂抹化妆品的工具。
>> 所以感觉就像你把东西涂抹在外面，应用，你知道，而操作感觉就像你抓住控制杆，你在操作机器，它的核心，它的机制。
>> 好的，公平。
>> 这再次，我不知道这些是否是技术定义，但这就是我区分的方式，而且我不是>> 我不是说你错了应用，我也经常使用应用这个词。
>> 但在那次谈话中，我说了操作，我认为是有原因的。我认为我不知道，也许不是。我认为我想说的是，这是一种直观的理解，这是一种，这是一种我拥有的知识，围绕着这个非常脆弱，因为，因为我不知道我到底在说什么，但我的意思是，特别是某件事的操作。[哼了一声]那里有魔法。有>> 应该拉动什么杠杆，按下什么按钮。
>> 嗯，我的意思是，就像，我在谈话中举了例子，也许我错了，但我没看到很多人创建YouTube视频争论塔罗牌的含义。是的，也许他们会，但我没见过。
>> 是的，也许有整个，就像，这些内部斗争，不行，你不能有，你知道，但这是因为在我看来，人们总是在为自己或他人操作塔罗牌，当他们去寻找那些信息时。
>> 他们不是在研究信息本身。他们是在操作某事。
>> 对？
>> 我认为，我认为操作是一个层面，甚至比应用还要低。我认为，这是我的直觉。
>> 或者他们只是彼此之间有关系。就像当你操作塔罗牌时，通常你会把那种智慧应用到你的生活中。就像操作帮助你理解那是什么工作。
>> 是的。也许操作来了，然后应用随之而来。也许这就是我区分的原因。我不知道我为什么区分。如果我不知道我在说什么，我可能应该闭嘴。
>> 不，我，我，我，我的意思是，我没有查过这两个词，也没有它们的词源学，但听起来，听起来很对。但无论如何，它的应用是最终的。它的目的是在你的生活中得到应用。是的。这样你就可以获得智慧。
>> 谢谢。好吧，我回去。这将是我的最后一件事。我保证。然后我们就结束了，因为这可能已经有一段时间了，包括剪辑和其他一切。而且，希望你喜欢这个。我们一会儿很想听听你的意见。嗯，好吧，事情是这样的。就像，试着给我儿子格纳。我想我在某个播客或视频里提到过。你可能会，如果你正在收听或观看，你可能会听到我再说几遍。现在对我来说，这是非常清楚的理解。我经历过。我的儿子格纳，他18岁，我试着给他一些建议。我冷不防地去给他建议，我刚开始说话，就像，“这是你需要做的事情。”爸爸认为他100%正确，这是他生活中坚实的好建议。格纳不太接受这个建议。他有点把它推开，不听，有点关上了。我们有点争吵。我当时想，“好吧，这是未经请求的。”所以，我等了一两天。我再试一次，我们一起散步，我们花时间在一起，我问他关于我想给他建议的情况，我问他问题，他给我反馈，我们谈论它，我表明我关心，我们在散步的路上建立理解，半小时内，我给了他完全相同的建议，猜猜发生了什么，安东尼娅？他能听进去。
>> 是的。
>> 他不是全部听进去了。我们仍然有一些小的争论，你知道，一些谈话和推诿和一些谈判。
>> 但他肯定比前一天散步时更能听进去。
>> 对，就在前一天，我带着建议去找他的时候。
>> 你提到了塔罗牌，一样。你就像在操作中，试图用塔罗牌来解决一些问题，给别人建议。而且解读很重要。你只是，如果你走到一个人面前，你知道，你递给他一张牌，这是你生活的建议。这张大阿卡纳牌。你递给他，我不知道大阿卡纳是什么。教皇。这是教皇。这对你很重要。拿去吧。就像，等等，什么？我该怎么处理这个？嗯，它的意思是这样。你解释教皇的定义。好吧。谢谢。我想，这个人会感到困惑，什么？好吧。但是，如果你和他一起解读，并且有一个框架，他有一个问题，你想解决某事或操作某事，那么当你给他教皇牌并解释它时，他就会说，“哦，这与我的问题有关，你正在为他创造一个容器，让他将它与自己的生活联系起来，从而产生见解，真正地用它来做些什么。”所以我把这个模式应用于性格画像，作为例子。这就是我所说的操作层面。如果你去找一个人，你知道他们是，你知道，你，他们告诉你他们是ENFJ，就像，“哦，太棒了ENFJ。你需要做这五件事。就像，好吧，我不知道你。就像，我不知道。你只知道我的类型字母。你怎么知道这是给我的建议？而且，值得称赞的是，如果你是那个给出建议的人，你可能是100%正确的，甚至是110%正确的，但他们听不进去，因为你没有像塔罗牌解读那样创造一个容器让他们听进这个建议。
>> 嗯，而且大多数人不知道他们是ENFJ。在这种情况下，就会像，“请原谅我[清嗓子]你告诉他们他们是ENFJ，以及所有你应该做的事情。”
>> 公平。但是因为你经历了，如果你经历了一个操作层面，比如画像环节，哦，告诉我你的生活。你为什么这样做？那是什么意思？即使他们甚至有点知道自己的类型，即使他们已经知道自己是ENFJ，你也很随意地知道这一点，通过这个确认它，然后你就聊聊。
>> 是的。
>> 你经历了这个方法论。
>> 嗯，最后，现在你说，“哦，这是五件事，作为ENFJ你需要知道的五件事。他们不仅会接受建议，他们甚至可能会主动向你索要。”
>> 是的。他们会想知道他们应该做什么。
>> 等等，你解释了我的汽车模型。
>> 是的。告诉我该做什么。
>> 我知道我是一个ENFJ，但我从来不知道我的10岁孩子是外向感知者，或者感觉者。
>> 是的。
>> 而且你说，当它在这里出现时，它经常会劫持一个人，他们可能会变得放纵，或者，你知道，有点太快行动。他们不会放慢速度来思考某事。而且，你解释的方式引起了我的共鸣。告诉我更多。我该如何阻止这种行为，或者如何控制它，或者如何摆脱我所处的这种循环？对吧？他们愿意听你告诉他们什么，而你实际上可以帮助人们。所以，我认为这就是为什么操作层面如此重要，它就像我的儿子一样，就像塔罗牌一样，就像个人画像一样，它让我们为真正的功课做好准备，就像功课一样。好吧，也许就是这样。也许操作本身就是实际的事情，而应用随之而来。如果你试图在没有事先操作的情况下给别人应用，那么这个应用可能不会被实施，他们可能根本听不进去，他们甚至可能反击，他们可能认为你是个混蛋。
>> 是的。呃，我听你说的是，操作，就像如果我们能很好地操作类型，如果我们对类型有操作性的视角，特别是当我们与他人交谈时，如果存在某种方法论，它就会增加应用成为结果的可能性。
>> 是的。
>> 而当你增加了应用成为结果的可能性时，你就尊重了系统，因为那就是它的初衷。卡尔·荣格在心理分析课程中，这个系统诞生了。
>> 它诞生于操作。所以它应该在那里。
>> 是的。
>> 认知功能是在心理对心理，基本上是画像环节中发明的。这是一个分析师的会话。就像一个了解某人并帮助他们达到某种程度的会话，他可以为他们提供建议。这就是他开发的框架。就像所有这一切的灵感来源是他的临床工作。
>> 对。是的。所以它需要活在操作中。而不知何故，我们已经把它从它的操作中解脱出来了。就像我们把它移走了，就像我小时候做的那些愚蠢的圣餐仪式。就像一小块圣餐饼，配上一杯愚蠢的葡萄汁。我想，“这不是面包，也不是酒。这是某种塑料的美国西部版本，我正在象征性地做着这个狗屁事。”另一个是象征，但这是一个大规模生产的，工业革命的象征，象征着非常>> 宗教和精神的东西。这真的很奇怪。小时候，我想，“这太奇怪了。”即使是小孩，我也觉得这是狗屁。
>> 这杯酷艾变成基督的血在我里面。
>> 是的。嗯，那是天主教徒。我们是新教徒。那不会发生。
>> 但是的，
>> 哦，[笑声]对了。
>> 但如果我是天主教徒，是的。
>> 我认为它会神奇地变成别的东西。
>> 如果你是天主教徒，那就是真正的葡萄酒。
>> 是的。对。它不会是葡萄汁。
>> 它不会是葡萄汁。说实话，它是葡萄汁。里面有真正的葡萄。它不是只有酷艾。
>> 我觉得那是路德宗或者别的什么。我不知道。也许吧。不，我想他们用真正的葡萄酒。我不知道。
>> 我现在陷入了一个很深的兔子洞。重点是，类型已经变成了这些圣餐饼和愚蠢的小葡萄汁塑料杯。它甚至没有，它没有，你知道，像荣格最初拥有的那种操作层面。
>> 所以我们说去他妈的。[笑声]我们说进入操作层面，因为嗯，它更有可能，即使作为操作者，我也发现自己作为操作者应用类型要多得多。所以
>> 是的。
>> 我同意。
>> 好的。
>> 好的。
>> 你怎么看？你一直在听。你一直在看这一集或听我们说话。你有什么想法？你也是这样看的吗？你认为性格类型的操作层面有力量吗？我知道我会收到很多评论，但不要，但不要，但不要，但你认为也有，你怎么看？是的。是的。是的。在所有其他事情中也有价值。我不是说它们没有价值。我只是说，如果你真的想看到价值，中心点就是达到操作层面。所以，来personalityhacker.com，就在这一集下面。你没有在这场对话中拿起麦克风，但我们想听听你的意见。发出你的声音。留下评论。提问。更重要的是，分享你的故事。你是否尝试过像我所说的那样操作它，而且效果非常好，你学到了很多东西？嗯，你对这些想法有什么经验？我们想在我们的网站personality.com上听到你的声音。来发出你的声音。
>> 如果你喜欢这一集，你可以在iTunes和各种Android平台上订阅我们。你可以留下评分和评论。请在iTunes上给我们留下评分和评论。每一次评论都让我感觉更好。而我们收到的最后一个并不好。我可能不应该这么说，但有人必须说一些好话，因为最后一个，每次我上去，>> 它都会让你士气低落。
>> 这是故意的，让你士气低落。
>> 他们就是这样说的。
>> 我想安东尼娅·道奇今晚哭着睡着。
>> 那是。
>> 我要让她哭。
>> 他们就像，“每集都别再谈论汽车模型了。”乔尔说，“好吧，去他妈的。”
>> 我没说去他妈的。
>> 我说他们显然不理解商业模式，并且对校准不屑一顾。但是
>> 嗯，没关系。他们不必，他们不必。他们不必为自己做到这一点。
>> 但有人应该说些好话，这样我就不必每晚哭着睡着了。你可能正在YouTube上观看我们，因为我们有视频播客。如果你喜欢这一集，你可以点赞，订阅，然后按铃以获取未来的剧集。你也可以留下评论，让我们知道你对这个想法有什么看法。当然，职业画像培训是我们的旗舰项目。这是一个为期六个月的课程，拥有超过100小时的数字内容，你可以永久访问。它以一个为期5天的现场活动结束，我认为这是很难营销的东西，因为你必须亲身经历。它是如此的体验式，它创造了惊人的社区。人们学习，人们一直在研究类型，仅仅通过与其他人在一起，连续五天谈论类型，就能学到很多东西。抱歉，我整晚喉咙都有点沙哑。嗯，连续五天。但是，身体化的练习也是如此。通过身体化认知功能，并在你的身体和你的大脑中认识它们，你就能学到很多关于类型的知识。这是一个令人惊叹的好时光。所以，请前往personalityhacker.com，查看我们的职业画像培训项目。我们可能，我们可能正在进行一次启动，在你听到这个的时候。或者你可以给我们发信息说你对职业画像培训感兴趣，看看现在是否是报名参加的好时机。
>> 是的。所以，如果你已经，如果你已经与我们谈论过的这个想法产生了共鸣，从业余到专业，业余并不意味着糟糕，它只是意味着你出于热爱去做它，
>> 而你想在此基础上增加一些东西，不是非此即彼，而是两者兼有。你想成为职业人士，我无法充分推荐职业画像培训。我认为这是一个绝佳的框架。
>> 是的。
>> 所以，请前往，你也可以前往profile training.com，获取更多信息。我的名字是乔尔·马克·惠特。
>> 我是安东尼娅·道奇。
>> 我们将在下一期Personalityhacker播客中与你交谈。[音乐]