Transcription
Too much effort, can't be bothered, is it necessary, mic drop. It's as simple as that.
So, if you're in a sexist relationship or your partner is starting to pull away, but still wants all the marriage benefits, then this is the episode for you. On our last walk and talk, Lotty and I used the American Beauty scene, Don't Get Beer on the Couch, as a good kind of starting point for the discussion.
"Lester, you're going to spill beer on the couch."
"So, what? It's just a couch."
"This is a $4,000 sofa."
"IT'S JUST A COUCH."
Let's get talking, shall we? When a man says his partner is pulling away, but she still wants all the benefits of the marriage. And if sex is off the table, is it in spite of him or perhaps something else going on under the underneath? Well, let's answer that in two elements. So, in spite of him might be that actually the sex that she's getting isn't the sex that she wants.
"Yeah."
"Also, there might be some medical stuff going on or pain going on. So, I never want to not mention that. But also, when women are pulling away from sex, it might not be about the sex. It might be about I just don't want to do that process with that person anymore. I don't want to be part of that anymore. So, the contract or the marriage is now broken. So you're looking for the why does that happen?"
"Yeah. What's the influence?"
"Yeah. There is so many things that can actually influence that like it's not important or we've got the kids now or is it necessary and for me there is such for me I always go for the health reasons first of all and then I talk about the pleasure. We're we're taking all of that element a big element of a relationship out of a relationship with no discussion and no talk. But the why is the hardest thing to find out? Because that's what the men are asking the women when they feel brave enough. Why is it that we can't do that? Because there's no discussion. We're not having big discussions about it. We need to I want all women to sit around and go, I need to tell my partner why I'm actually taking this off the table. If there was something solid, if it's medical, I absolutely get it, but then go and find out what you need to do to make yourself better. If it was the guy who couldn't either, then we'd be looking at him and going, 'What does he need to do to go and get better?' It's such a fundamental um thing to be able to connect with each other on that level and it's being taken away within relationships."
"So, if we take the medical side out of the equation, what are other influences that can inhibit that relationship fostering activity?"
"Can't be bothered. Too much effort. Is it necessary? Mic drop. It's as simple as that."
"But you're talking about taking accountability for your part to pay in an agreed"
"Yeah."
"uh contract for a relationship."
"But when I'm in the therapy session, women will say, 'I just don't want to.' And I go, 'What is it that you don't What is it that you don't want to do?'"
"But what Yeah. I guess where I'm going is the the No, we're on the same path. It just occurred to me as you were saying that then it's like I just don't want to. There's no such thing. And just hear me out. There is always underlining whether it's covert, whether it's not known, whether it's um covert influences, various narratives that are bubbling away underneath. It could be all manner of dynamics even social you know the the women's empowering element side of you know being boss and you know all of those things don't promote healthy relationship. So I guess that's where I was going. What's happening underneath? What are those hidden things that individuals women in a in a relationship might be unknowingly being absorbed or exposed to?"
"M well I guess one of the elements can be that that you have stayed home you've agreed the setup was that he would go to work you would stay home look after the children there's a part of you going now I want to be part of the the career path and that's all fine but something gives within the relationship and it's usually sex and communication intimacy and communication just go"
"what's the expression you said before intimacy and sex they walk out the room together"
"together yeah absolutely Yeah. Yeah. There was something I was going to say before that um with your question is what is it that takes somebody away from that intimate relationship that you can't get from anyone else?"
"So if we look well it's a monogous relationship. You haven't opened it up. You haven't said to your partner and I do hear this they say go off and do it with someone else and leave me alone. They actually don't mean that because when it has happened and they have done that they're absolutely fuming that that person's done that. So it's it's a way of rejection and saying I am going to open. Nobody's actually said we're going to open the relationship. It's just a throwaway comment. So we have to be careful with that."
"It sounds like they're almost testing the waters."
"But what are they testing it for? Cuz they're not giving anything anyway. Why are they doing that? So it's another rejection. And the men sit in this real discomfort place going, I actually want to have sex with you. You don't want to, but I actually don't want to go and do it anywhere else. I only want it with you. And you've talked to me about that many times about when a man loves someone, they don't want to go and do that with someone else. They don't."
"No."
"And look at the comments section. It's uh it's a plethora of two or three camps just using the two extremes, the polar ends apart, you know, no sex, no relationship, done. Period. Finish. Phonito versus the others like still love my wife, we've got kids, we've got family, we got this. So, I can't and I don't want to break that oath, that bond because there was an agreement, but you're still not getting the relationship. So, uh it feels like a deciding factor to Proof's in the pudding. You're not in a relationship."
"Yeah. Yeah. And that unilateral decision that somebody else has made for you and then forced you into celibacy. Where's your voice? Where's your choice? Where's your opportunity? So, somebody's going, 'We are never talking about this ever. It's done. I'm not doing this with you anymore.'"
"And that's control."
"It is controlling. Absolutely controlling and abusive as well because it's not talked about. There's silence. So, at the risk of upsetting people that there might be a, you know, it sounds abusive. Well, I'm not being abusive. It's my body, my choice. The fact that we're not having the conversation is the controlling bit. Absolutely."
"It's the It's not being accountable for the elephant in the room."
"Yeah. Yeah."
"We can't avoid things forever, but some people do a very good job of it, right?"
"Yeah. And sex is not the easiest thing to talk about, so it's better to just shut it down. Let's not talk about it. But you talk about everything else in your relationship, the holidays and the meal planning and children's and all everything. Suddenly you're not allowed to talk about this one subject which is quite a hard subject to talk about"
"the discomfort of it."
"Absolutely. But the discomfort is now there. It is something that is the elephant in the room. You're not talking about it's there all the time. The tension builds."
"So what are what are men experiencing in that situation? There's no sex and there's no conversation. What does it do to a man?"
"Oh, loads of stuff, doesn't it? So obviously speaking from a woman's perspective, I would imagine self-esteem, confidence, attractiveness, you feel like you're not attractive, self-worth, failure,"
"disengagement."
"Yeah. And the failure, why that resonated for me is that if you are, let's say you're under the microscope or feel like you're in a critical relationship, so the things you do say and your behavior. So fundamental flaws to your character are being exposed."
"They may not be true,"
"but they're being exposed. I wonder the psychological damage of you're saying self-esteem. There is an element of"
"real physical and emotional damage to character."
"Oh, without lost. Absolutely lost. And there's there's Yeah. And but there's a grief cycle to it, isn't there? There's shock and disbelief that this is just something that's temporary. And then we're going into anger, depression, bargaining, going back into it and see if I can bargain my way back in. And what usually women would say is something like, um, just just going on about sex again or you want to use me again. This is a partner that you chose to be in love with. This is not using you. This is actually a combination of two people coming together to show their love cuz it is a monogous relationship and it's only supposed to be you two that you've chosen. If it's not with you two, it's not at all. And we're expecting the men to sit on the sidelines and say, 'Well, that's all right. I don't mind. I don't mind continuing to provide and we keep the house and the car and the contents and everything.' It's so unfair. And we're not doing transactional. We're doing relational. I don't want it to be transactional. You know, do some chores and I'll give you a I don't want it ever to be like that. I I can I can safely say from my own experiences and working with guys that that the genuine need for feminine intimacy"
"is more important whatever that might be than just"
"sex. Yeah,"
"I was going to say something else then. I had to pull right the poor."
"Should I say it anyway? The expression get your dick wet, you know, but that that's kind of the transactional thing. That's all you want. You just want to get your dick wet."
"Yeah."
"In my experience, it's not the case."
"No. And the warmth I can't This is these are conversations we're having. But it's all it's the feeling you have when your female partner comes up to you and they slide their hand into your hand and you know that you want to protect that woman and you want to be with that person and you want to be intimate with that person."
"The warmth that goes through somebody's body is is unbelievable. And the same for a woman as well. So when a man comes up and puts their hand in yours, you feel safe. You feel like you could conquer anything. So that intimacy is so powerful. I assume then that you've experienced that in therapy, seen it firsthand when when you found when both partners have found each other in therapy and they've seen each other truly and they've exposed an intimacy and a vulnerability that has been lost over years, maybe even decades."
"Yeah."
"You've had the opportunity to see that firsthand and the the growth and the warmth in it."
"Yeah. And I point it out and I wish I had a Kodak camera. the ones that come through and I can just hand it to him. Hang on. It's a bit weird. Yeah, absolutely. But when I see it and there's that eye contact and they stay with each other and they forget that I'm even in the room and it's so powerful and then I say to them, 'What just happened then? What I've just witnessed is that you that is the first eye contact you've had. You've stayed with it. You both had a bit of a giggle together and you were reminiscing. That's the first time I've seen it. Now let's stop a minute. What's the feeling in your body?' And it's joy. It's actually a release of joy. It's such a wonderful thing to to witness. It's huge."
"So, whilst you were saying that, I was thinking about I'm going completely off script, by the way."
"Okay."
"Um I was thinking about the the fostering intimacy."
"Oh, lovely. Yeah. I'm going a bit abstract here and going off pie, but if we establish what intimacy is, we can stop blaming what we think it was. Meaning, you only want me for sex. You just want to get your dick wet."
"Well, actually, intimacy just looking I might share this afterwards."
"We'll put it on the website."
"Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And actually get couples to do it together."
"Yes."
"It's really powerful when they actually sit down and do that together. So, let me let me read this and I'll um I'll try and hash this together. So, there are at least six types of intimacy and you can rate each one 1 to 10 with one representing a low satisfaction, 10 representing a high satisfaction using the chart below. And the chart actually shows a circle. This is not the way I wanted to do it, but we'll do a zoom in. We're doing a zoom in shot. But uh intimacy uh spans those six um areas. So let's just go for the first one. Sexual makes sense."
"Yeah."
"Emotional. That makes sense. But then you've got physical, spiritual, experiential, and intellectual."
"Now, why that resonates for me is when I think about the type of relationships and intimate relationships I have, they're not all with my romantic partner."
"Yeah. I have a life partner and then I have my friends and each one covers one of those intimate and and each one is as important as the other."
"If we don't know that in a in a healthy relationship in a dynamic relationship and we talk about love languages as well being an an intrinsic part if physical touch and sexual uh intimacy is important to more often than not men. Right."
"Predominantly. Yeah. predominantly we do need to be attuned and understand that there are other forms of intimacy."
"Y"
"but betraying our partner by saying that isn't intimate their experience of intimacy there's a cruelty is where I was going with it that I think is probably worth exploring."
"So what we're talking about today is taking sex off the table. Intimacy isn't sex."
"Yeah."
"Intimacy is that acknowledgement that you exist. I can be seen. I can be heard."
"Vulnerability."
"Vulnerability. sensitivity, um, availability, accountability, all of those things are part of intimacy. So, it's not just, you know, intimacy starts outside the bedroom."
"Mhm."
"You know, the acknowledgement in the morning or the night before. The things that we can do that actually warm that person up towards going towards having a relationship, a sexual relationship or a or a spiritual process or whatever it might be. There is there's lots of corners of intimacy, but we think about it is as in and what happens I do want to say this is when sex is being taken off the table or it's starting to deplete all intimacy disappears because if you hold someone's hand and they and the guy hasn't had sex for ages, what's he going to draw get drawn towards?"
"Of course. Yeah. They'll be thinking there's a door open and I'm there's a possibility and there might not be. And that's why I talk about dialoguing with with each other before sex. You know, what what are we looking at? I want to, you know, I get my client say to her, 'I really want to kiss you.' I had a client the other day and she they had a lot of stuff going on and she said, 'I'm lonely, but I I'm I'm not forgiving yet, but I'm lonely and I want to kiss you, but as soon as I kiss you, you'll want sex, and I'm not ready for that.' I said, 'But let's have that conversation. I am going to kiss you. I'm not going to give you sex, but I want to be near you. I want to feel safe again.' And the only way she's going to experience that is by doing that. So what you're sharing there is an it could be a blind spot for a guy meaning"
"Yeah."
"Yeah. So this blind spot could be she wants all the benefits. She wants the house. She wants the car. She wants the holiday."
"She still actually wants the marriage."
"Yeah."
"But it's not being perceived that way potentially."
"Yeah. meaning he could think that she's gone off him, but it's actually his inability to see a broader bigger picture for safety within the relationship."
"It can be. Yeah. Yeah. When we talk about Tony Robbins, which I talk about all the time, is if we haven't got enough safety, we can't be funny with each other. My clients come in, they are so serious. They never have a bit of a giggle with each other. It's too dangerous to have a a giggle because they're not safe enough. If they're not safe, they're not significant. How important am I to you? Well, at the moment, if we're taking sex off the table, you're not important to me at all. There's no discussion. Then we've got growth. How can we grow if we keep taking things away from the relationship? We've got to enhance stuff, not not take it away. Then we've got love and connection. And my clients, I just want to be loved. How loving are you? How easy are you to come towards?"
"We talked about before, didn't we, about if someone's always angry, you're not going to go there very often. Too dodgy. Yeah."
"Or critical as well. I think that's critical or contemptuous or um defensive. All of those and stonewalling. I can't nothing happens when I do go towards you anyway. Um and then we've got um love and connection. How connected am I to myself and to the other person? And then we've got contribution above ourselves, which is really important. That's the one thing I do love about Tony Robbins. The reason why he said years and years ago, I've still got the the recording is I want to make money so I can feed people. He does some stuff above himself which is nothing to do with him emotionally."
"How do you serve?"
"How do you serve? Per perfect. Yeah. So to me the relationship creed is like a little bit of a bible."
"Relationship creed. I"
"I recall this but I can't think when we've I've heard this before."
"I use it all the time with my clients."
"Is this something that you specifically use in your therapy room?"
"Yeah, absolutely. So"
"relationship creed."
"Yeah. So we're looking at what they already have and we're looking at what things they need to enhance. But if we're looking at what we're looking at today is is um I don't want to have sex, but I want to have all the benefits. The relationship creed is probably not even in existence because you're not significant, you're not growing, you're not safe."
"So like a so a relationship creed, a relationship uh contract, marriage vows, whichever you use, there is a reason why they're there from that commitment from day one. Yeah. What we're saying is perhaps more modern age now is there's less emphasis on the cre there's less emphasis on the contract. There's less emphasis on the agreement and that is where we're failing because we can't have those difficult conversations didn't have them. It was it wasn't a precursor to the relationship."
"Probably not. No. And don't forget I always say to you however you set that relationship up is how it is. So say you said the man will go out to work and the woman will bring up the children. just you know the the usual I suppose if you want to say that but um and then that continues and then the woman gets frustrated because she's going well about my career I put my life on hold and I had the children you had a discussion you actually did have a discussion of what was going to happen but you set it up and it went on too long where's the review why don't we say every 3 years maybe let's go back in somebody said to me the other can we do it every 3 months because I want to see whether I want to change direction that's fine do a review do a review and say actually the kids are this age now I actually want to go and find my face"
"when young people marry uh maybe in their mid20s or early 30s they're not going to be the same people in their 40s they are not going to be the same people in their 50s"
"and they shouldn't be"
"no absolutely there should be growth and opportunity you should grow with each other or"
"I quite like the idea of conflict I quite like the idea of friction I quite like the idea of having to pull my socks up and be better for my partner and for me"
"yeah absolutely"
"not lose me Yeah, absolutely. But that's why Peter Cone to me is really important because he talks about freedom, love, and possibilities. Um, but he also talks about abundance and aliveness. We've got to have aliveness within the relationship and relationships, you know, we do like the rat race. We do the rat race. We feel like we've got to do we have to work. We have to do this. We have There's so much going on and we lose sight of each other. What is important to you and what is important to me?"
"Would you say they lose sight of each other and themselves?"
"Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely."
"Could you argue they lose sight of themselves first?"
"Well, a lot of people don't realize they're an I once they become a real solid Wii. They forget that there's an I. So, I always talk about the I and the Wii again and again and again because I feel like who are who were you before? And a lot of people have not had gaps in relationship. They've had relationship, relationship, relationship. So, they've not really found out who the I is. And once they become in that we process and they've had children, they don't think it's the right thing. It's selfish to be an I and it's actually not. It's is growth within that process."
"You there is three people in a relationship. The I, the us. Oh, sorry. The the I, the you, and the we."
"Yeah. Yeah."
"Yeah. Yeah. And unless you unless you cultivate that eye, you you end up resenting the Wii."
"What am I not doing that I could have for myself, but I don't ask for it because it feels like I've I've got to be totally accountable. Well, there's two people in the relationship, so you're 50/50 accountable for everything. What do you think men need to be really honest about when they're in the situation that we're describing? The uh sex is off the table, but she wants all the benefits. What could men be more honest about themselves?"
"Well, I would like them to be more honest that they're sitting in fear, but men don't want to tell people that they're sitting in fear. Their nervous systems are shot. They're trying to come back into the relationship. They're they're sidelining over, you know, doing this, going around hinting and all this sort of stuff."
"Don't say the real words. Don't say the whole sentence. they might hear it or there might be escalation which they don't want people pleasing. Um, don't walk walking on eggshells and that sort of stuff. Let's not let's not upset anybody. What we've got to do is get them to go I can't cope. I'm not okay with how this is going boundary."
"The I the eye before we really resonates I think in this section what we're we're chatting about. If there's no if there's no accountability to cultivate self-esteem, to cultivate self-worth and growth and probably more than any of that is holding boundaries and being confident to say them regardless of the outcome."
"Yeah. Well, let me sound this out and see what it sounds like. When a guy decides to go, right, do you know what? I'm I feel rejected. I'm sad. I feel unattractive. They don't want to go off and do anything with anybody else and they come into the relationship and they go right okay I'm going to give this three months and on that date either you're not going to be here or I'm not going to be here or all that we have invested is not going to be here. It's going to change. Interestingly enough sometimes the female comes back in and we are talking about heterosexual relationships here. They come back in, but they don't come back in long enough. Just enough to secure what they're wanting again, and then it goes back into what what it was before. Quite slowly, and it's quite subtle. But what we've got to realize is if you are reconnecting back, it's got to be from an honest place. Whereas, if you're threatened by the threat of this is I'm not doing this anymore. Because the reason why it keeps going is because the guy is what's that saying? You say that they're condoning it. They're carrying on with that. or the the behavior that we accept, we conduct"
"conduct. Yeah. Absolutely. So, when there is a threat, and I'm not saying I want men to go around and threaten anybody, but when they go, I'm at the end of my I'm at the edge. I'm not going to be able to cope with this relationship anymore. It's really affecting my my mental I'm going to become ill if I don't do something about it for the woman steps back in. But, it's got to be consistent. And that's what therapy is about. They come to therapy and I go, 'Okay, what what is it that you're going to bring back to the relationship?' cuz they took out the what are they bringing back? Which means they've got to put some effort in. They've got to work towards the guy's already there. They never really left. They still want that intimacy and that sex with that same person."
"Am I right in thinking though that they sometimes get to hear about all this almost when it's too late. Men can go on for years and years and not realize there is a problem. They might see the degradation, but they don't want to tread on eggshells. They don't want to upset the apple cart."
"Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. And and also, you know, I hear women say, you know, probably every 3 or 4 months I will do something with him just to calm it all down."
"Nice"
"transactional, but also it's um what's the word? There there must be a word for that. It's just like"
"conditional, transactional."
"Yeah, there's I think it's cruel because because it's a precursor to we're back on track. Got a mate who runs a small business? Brother-in-law with a van? Friend still rocking a website from 2012? You know the one. Looks fine technically, but hasn't been touched in years. Costs a fortune to update. And nobody wants another website project. With our biz, they can see a brand new version of their site in minutes. No signups, no awkward sales calls, no money upfront. And here's the good bit. If you introduce them and they decide to go live, you get rewarded. Just send the link. You don't need to explain anything. They can see their new website instantly. Our biz referral program helps someone upgrade. Earn for the intro. Simple. Visit ourbiz.com."
"From the man's point of view,"
"but I think there's there's an opportunity for a guy to almost fool himself because we actually deep down"
"Yeah."
"truly"
"we know the truth."
"Yeah. and we'll grab. It's like air, isn't it? If you don't have it, you need oxygen."
"Yeah. But I've had a lot of couples come into me, and I'm talking about a lot of couples, and when it is offered because the tension in the house becomes too much. Um, how can I put this? The guy has taken what he's needed and then been vilified because the the woman is giving herself, but she's not present. So, he's done what he's done and then he's vilified for actually taking it, but it was offered. It's very confusing and then it's not consistent. It's not going to happen again. For me, there there's a a very cruel part with that. Not I don't want women to do that. I want I want there to be a discussion. Please talk about why it is that you don't want to do it with them anymore."
"Let's backtrack a little bit. Let's let's sit with that rejection. How should men deal with that rejection? It's a really good question. Well, they it's either started the rejection, so they are believing that it's just a rejection. It's hurt. It's painful, but there there's light the end of the tunnel, or they've been rejected for over 20 years and they've gone numb because they don't expect anything."
"Died a little bit is what just came up for me."
"Yeah, I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. and they still see this person going out having lovely times with their mates or they come back and talk about work and you know how what a fun time they've had and and that bond that should be with them with somebody else is bonding with children."
"I'm jealous with my friends. No, I'm not jealous of"
"jealous of the dog."
"Yeah."
"I've got couples who say I'm jealous of Yeah. Yeah. I'm jealous of the dog. The dog sits right next"
"She loves the dog more than me."
"Yeah. Yeah. Kids more than me. Neighbor. You will notice that everywhere they go that that the energy is used in other places. Yeah. And this has got to be apparent, hasn't it? It's got to be seen, isn't it? By the person who's saying, 'I'm not I'm going to take it off the table, but I want all the benefits.' So, you're living a life that's in existence with a person who's saying, 'I actually love you still, and I want to come back into that that nook, but you're not you're not invited. You're not part of it.'"
"in a couple's setting when there's a conflict and the reaction feels really out of proportion or how should that person react or respond?"
"I think they've seen it too many times. So when somebody if the guy's talking to the woman and saying we need to have a chat and it escalates into huge, it means that there that's it's clever."
"It's avoidant."
"It's well it's avoid but it's known avoidant."
"Yeah. So, I'm going to shut you down because I don't want this conversation. So, I'm going to go up there. So, then that makes you feel insecure. And"
"so, when we're talking about up there, we're talking escalated conversation, heightened um accusation, vilification, name calling, hysteria, all of those things is about controlling the exposure to accountability."
"Yeah. It shuts down the narrative. There is no opportunity, is there? M"
"and I always say to my clients, it's really clever. You do that, they go away. You do that, they go away."
"How do they respond when they when you pick that? I mean, it's it's obvious when you said it out loud, but even I'm so I'm trying to navigate that myself, but how do they respond to that when you pick up on it?"
"Defensive usually of the apocalypse."
"Yeah. Which is really useful. I ask why they've gone defensive. What is it that I've done that's triggered them to get them to become defensive? Because defensive is don't blame me. So why are they holding why are they holding that that responsibility because it is theirs. What would it be like to have a conversation? What would it be like to evidence that actually every time a conversation is"
"I love that word evidence."
"I'm profiling an evidence. I'm not a police officer but I go on truth though. Is it evidence is truth."
"Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So you do that, they shut up. You do that, they shut up."
"It it it's perfect. The evidence is that what you're doing works, but then it doesn't it protect a certain narrative that uh that that individual might be sitting with"
"what the one who's taking sex off the table?"
"Yeah."
"Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Avoid. You're you're right. It is avoidance. But what are they avoiding?"
"And that's the bit that I want to get to. Yeah."
"And I think there's there's so much of what we experience we have no true depth of understanding. It is a there is a blind spot. It's covert. So, we don't notice it. It's only in therapy perhaps that we have the opportunity to"
"spell it out,"
"make it known."
"But don't you think this is similar um to trying to navigate why you had an affair?"
"Yeah."
"Okay. So, there is so many reasons why people have affairs. So, we can never really home it in on why they had. We go on about it in therapy all the time. You know, what made you do that? Why did it happen? and and it's sort of avoided and then it's sort of gone towards and is the whole story of the affair really disclosed because actually it was in a limrance place and some of it they can't remember some of it was a bit crazy we never really get to the why it happened and this is the same sometimes I think you know we're talking about why are you taking sex off the table I don't think sometimes we always get to the why it's how can we navigate it is the most important thing you're chasing the why will keep you stuck"
"So from a from a woman's perspective, what do you wish in this particular example that we're talking about today that they could learn from this episode?"
"I would really women both or"
"just stick with women for the second because I think there's"
"it's the same problem but the other side of the coin."
"Yeah. I think that as soon as you decide that you want to do something different with your body, okay, it's your choice, consent, then we we I as a woman would need to have a conversation. So whether it's the sex that I'm having or I don't like what we're doing or I I've got no um libido or it's not happening for me, there needs to be a conversation because what we do is we leave men in the dark. They have no idea why we've taken it off the table. They have no idea that what's happened and actually they internalize it and go what have I done? Could I be better person? Could I have done more? Could I have done this? Could I have done that? There are probably some elements of that. Women are take I want women to start talking about why am I taking it off the table? You know, we have discussions about menopause. We have discussions about affairs. But what I want us to do as women is have a discussion about I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to have sex with you anymore."
"I saw apologies. It was on Instagram, but I saw was how the more women share about their marriage and if a friend is getting divorced, the likelihood of them getting a divorce increases by something ridiculous like 75%. So if there were three ladies in the room, you got a divorce, you got a divorce, it's highly likely that I'm now going to get a divorce. So there are external influences that we that we're investing in unknowingly from either victim uh feeling everyone's the perpetrator. There is a cultural thing I think that's influencing marriages."
"Mhm."
"So that said,"
"yeah,"
"what do you wish men could do and how they could respond in this particular setting?"
"That's a really good question, is it? Because I think when they are rejected, they don't have the narrative or the vocabulary to actually work that out cuz the pain of being rejected again and again and again is so huge. But what I'd like them to do is stand in their power and say, 'This isn't going to work for me.'"
"Love it."
"This is just not going to work for me. Men need sex. Men need appreciation. Men need closeness. That's how they show their love."
"Intimacy as well."
"To Yeah. Yeah. But we we've got to get away from why why are we not allowed to say men want sex? We I know they've been doing it for millions. Men want sex. I'm going to say it again. Men want sex. It's okay to say we can say make love if you like like to you know men like to We're going to say in any way that we want to say it. And absolutely intimacy is the draw that leads to that. Totally agree with that. But I want to actually say here and now that men need sex. It's part of their structure. It's how they show their feelings. It's part of their manhood, livelihood, self-esteem, confidence. It's it's huge."
"But don't we have a little bit of a conflict here with regards to uh some things I hear are men need to talk about their emotions and feelings more. Yet, if they try to in this capacity, it's met with stonewalling."
"It's met with contempt. Like, that's all you want me for. You're a sex pest. Um, you know, all you ever think about is sex. Tell us why you don't like that phrase sex pest."
"I just think it um labels a man in the wrong way. I don't like I won't allow it in my therapy room. No."
"Um"
"that's why I asked the question cuz I know"
"Yeah. I won't allow it because I just think to myself, let's let's look at that. What is it that that you believe that he's doing to you that you don't like? And it might be something, you know, I don't know, you might have met 17, 18, he's still doing the same rhetoric as he's done before and the same lines and it needs to evolve. It needs to change the jokes that men tell sometimes. They not because there's a misogyny process going on, but we need to change it sometimes because we've as a as your partner, you've heard it again and again and again."
"And we talked about this earlier. You're not going to be the same person at 25 or 35 or 45. Evolving is important. Being stoic is important for a man. And I think the guys that might be listening to this episode or watching this episode, it saddens me when they don't realize how much power they have in their in their control."
"I talk about being vital."
"And it is such a stoic thing to say, I've got to be accountable and responsible for how I behave, how I respond. If I'm being attacked, if I'm being vilified, that's a feeling. That's not a fact. Yeah. And I have to respond from a fact perspective."
"And I think your description of partners, women that could be softer, have dialogue, have the conversation is the two sides of the coin that that need to be addressed."
"Well, find that feminine that that part of them that is still there. They've just decided to bury it. It's not lost."
"And the question is for me, I'm not saying we can answer it now, but why are you burying the feminine? M yeah yeah yeah I think there's a lot of I feel like I feel quite energized by this I feel angry I think a little bit angry I don't want women to give up on men and I don't want men to give up on themselves I don't want them to give up on themselves yeah I just don't I just want them to sit in their power that's what I talk to men about you know you are so vital in a relationship that safety that you can give that opportunity that you can be there um, you know I miss banter with men it's It's a dying art. I'm not talking about misogyny. I'm talking about banter where it is funny."
"I don't believe in misogyny."
"Right."
"It is. Yeah. Yeah."
"I heard a quote the other day. I think it might have been uh the comedian Alan Car He said the cure for toxic masculinity is masculinity. Yeah. I love that."
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