Transcription
There was a guy named Omar. And Omar, um, grew up in a refugee camp in the Middle East. He hated Jewish people.
Yes. He hated Jewish people. His life goal was to murder as many Jews as he could. And so he wanted to join Hamas. This was about a dozen years ago. He wanted to join Hamas. So he makes arrangements to meet with some leaders of Hamas.
So he's walking down the road toward that meeting and he's blocked by a vision of Jesus who stops him and says, "Omar, this is not the plan I have for your life. I want you to turn around. I want you to go home. This is not what I want for your life." Well, it freaks him out, right? And so what does he do? He turns around. He goes home.
That afternoon, he lived in an apartment building. That afternoon, an American family was moving into the apartment across the hall. And he goes over there and he says, "I just had this vision of Jesus telling me that." And he explained the vision and he says, "As a Christian, can you tell me what it means?" And this Christian man said, "Well, let me just do this." And he opens the Bible and he shares the gospel with him. And Omar not only becomes a Christian but today he himself is an underground church planter in the Middle East. Omar is not his real name, by the way.
Um, so there you have again, external corroboration. It, the, the, the image, the vision he had pointed him ultimately towards somebody else who then explained the gospel. That to me tells me this is more than a subconscious, um, manifestation of something in our heads.
Yes. Um, and that's what, as, as someone trained in journalism and law, I'm, I'm looking for those kind of, um, uh, instances of corroboration. We have seen more Muslims become Christians in the last couple of decades than in the 1400 years since Muhammad. And it's been estimated that a quarter to a third of them, before they became a Christian, had a Jesus dream.
Now, what's interesting about that is that these are corroborated dreams. I, I'll tell you what I mean by that. First of all, a devout Muslim has no incentive, in a, let's say, in a closed country where it's even illegal to share the Christian go, uh, gospel. They have no incentive to have a dream as a product of their subconscious mind about Jesus, the Jesus of Christianity, because it might lead them into apostasy. It might lead them to a death sentence in certain countries. So there's no incentive for a devout Muslim to have a dream about Jesus. And yet we are seeing this all over the Middle East, in closed countries, in, um, oppressive countries where Christians are persecuted and so forth.
But here's the, here's what I found most fascinating in these cases. People are not going to sleep as a Muslim having a dream about Jesus and waking up as a Christian. That's not how it works. There is always, um, something that points to a phenomenon or an event or a person outside the dream that corroborates the dream. Let, let me give you an example to clarify it.
There was a woman named No in Cairo, mother of eight, devout Muslim. She goes to sleep. She has a dream in which Jesus visits her. It's unlike, unlike any dream she's ever had. And she feels the love and the grace and the beauty of Jesus in such a profound way. She said, "Here I am, a woman in the presence of a man. For the first time in my life, I didn't feel shame. I felt love." And she's just overwhelmed by this. And they're walking along a lake shore. And she says, "Jesus, why do you appear to me? I'm just a poor mother of eight in Cairo." And Jesus said, "My friend will tell you tomorrow." And she said, "Who's, who's your friend?" And Jesus gestures to a man she didn't even realize was walking with them along the lake shore, because she was so mesmerized by Jesus, she didn't notice this guy. And he says, "My friend will tell you tomorrow."
She wakes up. The next day, she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on a Friday afternoon. And she sees the man from her dream. She goes up to him, says, "You're the one. You're the Hea. What are you talking about? You're the man." Same glasses, same face, same clothes. You're the one. He said, "Did you have a dream about Jesus last night?" She said, "Yes." Turned out he was an underground church planter. He didn't want to go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon. It's chaotic, but he felt God had an assignment for him. So he went that day. No, nor encounters him from the dream. He pulls her aside, opens the Bible, and shares the gospel with her. That's the external corroboration that I'm talking about. It's not just something that takes place in your subconscious mind. There is an external factor to it.
I'll give you another example. There was, I ask you, so one of the miracles there are at least two in the story you just told.
Yeah.
And one of them is that the pastor felt the call to go to the marketplace on a Friday and he obeyed.
Exactly.
You believe there has been an uptick in mystical dreams?
Oh, definitely in the Middle East. In fact, get this. In Cairo, there's often an ad in the newspaper and the ad says, "Call this number and we'll tell you about the man in white you met in your dream last night."
Really? Because there's so many of these. I interviewed for my book, uh, Seeing the Supernatural. I interviewed, uh, Tom Doyle, who is the world's leading expert on this. And Tom said, "Lee, I could pick up the phone right now and I could call Syria. I could call Iraq. I can call Iran. And I'll give you five more stories. They are so common. I'll give you one from my church in Houston, Texas."
So, I'm part of a church. I live part-time in Houston and part of a church there. I used to be on the staff. And, um, um, there was a woman who was born in the Middle East in a closed country where you can't share the gospel legally. And, uh, she had a, a dream when she was about 16 years old. And she said it was unlike any dream I ever had because it was like a projector was projecting an image of, of Jesus. And it, it influenced her. It touched her, but she didn't know what to do with it. And, um, she said, "I was having problems with my life. I called out for help." And that's what happened.
Well, she ended up marrying a Muslim gentleman who was transferred to Houston, Texas because of the oil industry. So, she moves in, into near our church. And she has another dream. And in this dream, she's up to her waist in a body of water, and there's a man with her with a book that's open, and the man is weeping. And she's thinking, "What does that mean? What, what is that supposed to be about?"
Well, a neighbor of hers goes to our church, and she invited her to come to Easter services at our church because her husband was out of town. So, she came to Easter services. She's sitting on the aisle in the auditorium waiting for the service to begin. And she sees the man who was with her in the pond with the book. And she said, "That's the guy. He was the one in my dream when I was in this pond for no reason whatsoever, but I saw him."
Well, his name is Alan Splan. Allan is our pastor of baptism. Allan comes over, they introduce her. This woman ends up receiving Jesus Christ as her forgiver and leader. She becomes a Christian and she learns about baptism. And sure enough, Alan Spl takes her to the pond on our property where we baptize new believers, and with her water up to her waist, and with Allen with a Bible open and weeping at the joy, baptizes her in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So there's a case in my own church in Texas like that.
What did her husband say when he got home?
He doesn't know to this day. He, he doesn't know.
He doesn't know because she can't tell him. She said he would, who knows what he would do. She can't. She can't. So she keeps, she has a Bible that we gave her. She keeps it hidden. And, um, um, she doesn't go to church because she can't. Um, so she has to keep it hidden from her husband.
Um, wow. It's sad, but again, she didn't knew nothing about baptism. What, what kind of a, what kind of a mystical dream? You're standing up to your waist in water with a guy with a book who's crying. I mean, what in the world is that all about?
How do you tell the difference between a conventional dream and a mystical dream? Or are all dreams mystical? I, I don't, we don't know what dreams are, just for the record, as a matter of science. And no one's ever been able to explain what that is.
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. God is in control of all. And so, in a sense, everything is spiritual, right? I mean, God, God rules and so forth. So, in a sense, any dream is spiritual. I think to me, a mystical dream is one that has strong spiritual overtones. And, um, there's no natural explanation to say this could come from your subconscious mind. You know, I think sometimes people will write off a dream, uh, as saying, "Well, that's just something that came from your subconscious. Maybe you saw something on television, didn't even realize it, and it was in your subconscious." And, but when you have examples like the one I gave, um, that doesn't make sense.
I just read a couple comments. Um, I'm a missionary in the Middle East, and I can confirm that this is true, especially among Muslims. In my experience, it's more like 30 or 40% of Muslims who come to Christ due to a vision or a dream. There's a woman who used to disciple who was a Muslim and she was paralyzed and Jesus came to her in a dream. She called out to him, "Please heal me." She woke up and could, uh, she woke up and could walk after three days and was completely healed. She was persecuted and drove out of her country and hasn't seen her family in years because she believes so much that Jesus healed her. I'm a Muslim and, and a year ago, Jesus came to me in a vision. I am now on a journey towards salvation. And there's like, I mean, a ton of comments like this that, that I do think are a, it's not the, it's not the historic case for the resurrection. It is a separate line of evidence that needs to be explained. Are all of these people crazy? What's the plausibility of that? Why, if they're just crazy, is there, is there, are they saying the same thing? How is the thing that they're seeing in, in a, in a dream, in a vision, also backed up by something physical happening, like the lady talking about healing, like the risen Jesus actually meeting these people? Yeah.
Explains this phenomenon. Anything other than that, it's really weird.
Lee said in this interview, this woman who had this vision of Jesus, this man in white, she had no incentive to have a dream about Jesus. Like, why? Why does he say she has no incentive? Like, what does he mean by that?
Well, he means she's going to get persecuted. She's going to actually be breaking ties with her family. That's what Nibil Keshi talks about. He says, "I knew that when I chose Jesus, I was choosing him over my family. I knew that they were not going to be at my wedding. I knew that they were going to disown me. I knew that I was literally going to be rejected. And the choice that I had to make was literally, who do I love more? And, and if he is really my creator and redeemer, then I have to choose him. But the stakes are as high as literally leaving my mother and father."
Yes. I mean, why does this matter? Right? Cuz I, I think when he says she has no incentive, you're absolutely right. I really do believe this matters because there are so many people who say, you are inclined to believe this. You're inclined to have dreams of Jesus. Maybe you've been reading about Jesus. Maybe you've been thinking about Jesus, so you had a dream about him. But it's like here are people who are not necessarily like absorbing Jesus in some capacity, right? Like it's not like they've been thinking about him or reading about him. It's like this man in white keeps appearing. And, and honestly, if you even just like Google, man in white appears to people in Syria or like name a Middle Eastern country, it's crazy. Story after story, even after like earthquakes or maybe certain attacks or certain things have happened, and this man in white appears to them and gives them water, takes care of them in some capacity. It's kind of mind-blowing. But I do think that question of like, it's not like they've been thinking about Jesus 24/7. So that's why they're having these dreams. Here she is having a dream and the man, you see tomorrow will explain to you why I appeared to you. And then the man who sees this, like she's like, you're the man in my dream. And he's like, did you have a dream of the man in white? Like the fact that there was someone else basically ready to affirm her, affirm this dream, to say that person in your dream is Jesus, and here's who Jesus is. Like the fact that you have two people, different backgrounds, not knowing each other, different life experiences, and he can answer her, her dream question. I just find that so, it's not just having a dream alone. And then they're waking up a Christian, like you said.
Like, it's not like I just had a dream and therefore I'm a Christian. There's someone that comes alongside them around that same time period to go, let me further explain to you this dream that you're having. And I mean, how biblical is that? Someone has a dream and then there's someone to go, yes, you had a dream and let me explain what this dream means.
And like, what does that mean? We need Christians who are ready. We, we need Christians who are in there who are like, who are like, for some reason, I got to go there today. I don't know why I got to go to the market, but I got to go. Like, we do need Christians who have an ear to hear. It's like, all right, Lord, what do you want to do? And like, I'm, I'm ready for any divine encounter today. You know, and even he could have been like, she could be like, oh, you're the man of my dream. Like, oh, that's so weird. He didn't have to be like, did you dream of Jesus? Like the fact that he's just ready to bring it to Jesus.
Yeah.
Like, so it's not just the dream. We need Christians who are going. We need Christians who are on the move. Cuz like, if it's just a dream, I, I do, like, listen, I love that God can use dreams to save people, but I think God also wants to use people to lead people to Christ.
So it's not just the dream, it's the Christian being being ready.
Yeah, that, that ties in exactly what I, I wanted to say something to the, to the sort of the skeptic or seeker or atheist listening to this. And then I wanted to say something to the Christian listening to this. To, to the skeptic, I would just say, follow the evidence where it leads. Because there is a whole lot of evidence and a whole lot of people that you have to discount as as crazy or lying for some reason, but there isn't a good reason, etc. So, just like, look under the hood of this phenomenon, and it's actually very compelling, would be what I would say there. And it totally lines up with the biblical account. That's the other thing, which kind of gets into what I wanted to say to, I, I find it a little bit, um, a little bit disconcerting, the resistance or the skepticism around this from Christians as well. And the reason why, not not that we shouldn't, like, like he said, test the spirits. But how do you test the spirits? You test the spirits according to the scripture. And if this is something that doesn't contradict scripture, but actually matches the pattern of how God does work in scripture, then I think that there, and again, if there are fruit coming out of it that are good, if salvation is coming out of it, if people are, if families are coming to Christ in closed countries where mission, missionaries haven't yet reached, I think we should obey what Jesus says and judge a tree by its fruit.
No one knows the day or the hour, but we know he has the power, and we know our king is coming. I can see the devil running.
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