He Studied Orthodoxy for 3 Years

Jonathan of Roots of Faith and Roots of Orthodoxy. Uh, how you doing, man?

>> I'm doing good, man. How are you? How's everything?

>> Pretty good. Pretty good.

>> I know you got a little one now and you're you're busy, you know, being a father.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's why you might see the the bags under my eyes. Uh,

>> yeah.

>> But I'm not looking forward to that. I'm I'm expecting a baby in the next couple days, maybe a week. So that that's the one part I'm not looking forward to.

>> Yeah.

>> Just losing my sleep and, you know, being up all night.

>> Yep. I feel like I got used to

>> My wife holds it down. Yeah. My wife holds it down pretty good. So,

>> right on. Yeah. I got used to it, man. We we take shifts and

>> it's pretty uh it's like if I can if I know what to expect, even if what what I expect is bad, as long as I know what to expect, then

>> it's fine. Yeah. So,

>> yeah,

>> I've kind of adjusted, I think. But the real reason that we're talking today is because you have been uh looking into orthodoxy for a couple of years now as a and you've been a Catholic, right? You you were raised Catholic.

>> I was baptized Catholic. Yeah, I was baptized as a baby.

>> But you've been exploring orthodoxy. You have your roots of orthodoxy channel. Um then you have your roots of faith channel

>> and you've finally made your decision about orthodoxy, whether or not you're going to leave the Catholic Church and become Orthodox. And before we talk about your decision, it's public so people know it. So, you know,

>> this isn't like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's been spoiled, but um

>> before we get into your decision, like why did you go on this journey to begin with?

>> Well, not to make, you know, not to go too deep into my background, my story, because I feel like I've said it a lot in on other channels and other podcasts that I've been on, but essentially, I grew up Catholic. I grew up culturally Catholic. My family's from Mexico, so my background is, you know, growing up as a as a Mexican American here in the United States. And I didn't really care too much about the faith. I was a lapsed Catholic for pretty much all of my life up until about three years ago when a good friend of mine named Voice of Reason before he was Voice of Reason, you know, he really put me on the spot about my faith and he really challenged me to look deeper into Christianity. And it was through his challenge, his push, he got me to take the faith seriously. In fact, he actually made me really upset one time. He was really picking on me about my faith, about not knowing enough about Jesus Christ because at the time I was very infatuated by the stoic philosophers, you know, Marcus Aurelius, Senica, Epictitus. That's what I loved to read. And I thought that was like the pinnacle of, you know, virtue. I thought that's as high as it can go. and he was really picking on me about it and I couldn't really answer his questions about life, about the conception of God, about salvation, about the afterlife. You know, the the the the philosophers only get you so far. And he made me really upset one night, him and my other friend Brian. And so I was like, you know what, guys? I'm going to order the Gospels. I I went online and I ordered the Word on Fire Gospels volume. And I said, I'm going to prove you guys wrong. Jesus Christ is a mystical teacher and he's pointing us to the one true God. He's not saying what you guys think he's saying. He's not calling himself God. He's pointing us to God. And I went into reading the Gospels with that mindset. And I started with the Gospel of Matthew and right away I was blown away by the person of Jesus, the claims about Jesus, and also how he speaks, the language that he uses. I'm like, "Wow, I've never seen somebody speak this way. I've never heard the language that's being used here. He's either speaking truthfully or he's a sociopath." You know, no other person would say something like, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." You know, no one comes to the father except through me,

>> right?

>> It's like, what kind of man speaks like this? I was almost like the Pharisees.

>> Unless unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Like, whoa, what are you talking about?

>> Yeah.

>> Super radical. 100%. I was like the Pharisees that were like, "Who is this man that he speaks with such authority?" You know, isn't you know that type of language really made me think deeper and it really challenged me and it made me have an open heart and an open mind to dive deeper into my Christian faith. And so it started there and by the grace of God, you know, voice of reason, he was really the one that kind of coached me along the way. And I'm the one who who told him, I'm like, "Hey man, you know what you're talking about. I like the way that you articulate yourself." He's been a catechist at the parochial level since he was a teenager teaching the adults. So, it was very clear that he knew what he was talking about. And I said, "Let me put you on camera. My background is in marketing, media, content creation. I want to be able to do something with you. I want to help you." Because his background was in acting. And after the pandemic, his work really slowed down. So this was about 2023. I said, "Let me put you on camera. I think this will really work." Uh there's not really anybody doing this type of work, especially on Tik Tok. So we started with Tik Tok. We started putting out content, short form content at first. Then eventually we moved to Instagram. Then eventually the longer form stuff on YouTube. And it was through this process, you know, I was still kind of learning the ropes as we're doing this ministry. It's really me being a friend. I've been friends with him since kindergarten. And it's really me just doing him a favor of wanting to help him out and put him, you know, in the spotlight. But it was through this process that he introduces me to his church that he was going to at the time, which is a Byzantine Catholic church, an eastern right Catholic church. It was through my exposure of the Eastern church that I really fell in love with the Christian faith. All of a sudden, everything just clicked for me. Everything that I was looking for, I feel like I had found it in the Eastern Right Catholic Church. the spirituality, the theology, the himnography, the incense, the iconography, all of it just culminated to that one point. I felt like Christianity finally made sense to me. The reverence that I witnessed there at the at the church, the faithfulness, you know, I was just looking at people, how they venerate the icons, how they stay after the liturgy and just pray faithfully in front of an icon. I'm like, I've never seen this before. uh you know growing up as a as a Latin right Catholic and and in many Latin right Catholic churches they're so large so usually after mass everyone has to leave because the next mass has to has to come so everybody has to leave the parking lot because the next mass has to start. Um, but anyway, the Eastern expression of the faith is what really drew me deeper into the mystery of Christianity. And being there at the Eastern Right Catholic Church, you hear the term Eastern Orthodox or Orthodoxy over time. You know, you'll hear it sprinkled in here and there, people talking about it, people talking about Eastern Orthodox saints. And so, I started wondering like, what is Eastern Orthodoxy? Why don't we just why don't I just go there? So, I looked up Eastern Orthodox churches in my area and I messaged the priest of um an Orthodox church about an hour away from me and he welcomed me. He's like, "Yeah, come through, you know, come and see, come visit us during the divine liturgy." And sure enough, I did. I went on a Sunday and when I walked through those doors, something just like the Eastern Right Catholic Experience, but I felt something a little bit more unique at the Eastern Orthodox Church. And when I walked through those doors, you know, it reminded me of the of the quote by Father Saraphim from Rose, who is soon to be canonized in the Eastern Orthodox Church as a saint. He says something along the lines of, "When I first attended the divine liturgy, I knew that my journey has come to an end. I know I I knew at that moment that I had find I had found my home." And I had that same type of feeling, but I didn't have that level of commitment. I wasn't ready to jump ship at that time. So, you know, I just keep going to the liturgy. I was going to the Catholic church, but also going to the Orthodox church. And I kept bugging the priest for an interview. I'm like, "Hey, you know, I really want to interview. I do media. I I don't know. I just have this crazy idea. I want to interview you and put it out there and see what happens." So, I did. You know, after a while, he he's like, "Okay, let's do it." He got the blessing from his uh spiritual father and then he accepted to do an interview with me. We put it out there and that's how the project really started. Roots of Orthodoxy and from there I started interviewing other priests in the area and you know priests like to recommend their friends you know you know go interview so and so he'll give you a great interview. I'm like, "Sure, I I'm I'm just so eager to learn about Orthodoxy, but also share it with the world because it's not a you it's not a uh typical experience, right? If you're inquiring into a faith, you probably just want to do it silently and privately." And I was because I wasn't necessarily public myself because all you see on the channel are priests. All you're going to see on the channel are priests. And yeah, that's essentially how that started. I fell in love with the Orthodox faith. I really love the consciousness of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's very profound.

>> The mysteries are very much palpable. You know, if if you've ever attended a divine liturgy at at an Eastern Orthodox church, I highly recommend it. It's one of the most transcendent experiences. And their lineage and their tradition of saints is is actually very attractive as well. They're modern-day saints. their contemporary saints. They have giants in in in their, you know, um, Sinicarian. You have St. John of San Francisco. You have St. Narios. You have St. Picios. You have all of these guys that are filled with the Holy Spirit and moved with God's grace. And it's very appealing, very attractive. And I knew that there was something special here. There was truth, there was goodness, there was beauty. And as a Catholic, I was told that I could affirm that of the our separated brethren of the Eastern Orthodox churches and even the oriental Orthodox churches for that matter, which later came into my purview. But at the time, you know, the Eastern Orthodox churches was my main focus. I really wanted to know is this the one true faith, is it true that the Catholic Church, the the current Catholic Church, the Pope, that they departed from the one true faith? And it was really our separated brethren that maintained the one true faith. And and that that kind of idea just kind of resonated with me. You know, it seems very likely you have four out of five patriarchs. It seems logically speaking that it would make sense that it's the four that maintained the faith and it was the one that separated himself. Especially when you take a look at what the papacy has become. You know, at first glance, it looks like it is a man who has who who was a brother bishop who who was part of one of these successors of the apostles who then tried to usurp the authority for himself. At first glance, this is what it looks like. So that that's really what started this journey. I really wanted to become part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I really loved my time being there, uh speaking with priests, meeting people, and just getting to visit all these awesome parishes. But yeah, in a nutshell, not to make a long uh not to make this a long story, but that's how I started my

>> my journey into looking at orthodoxy.

>> Yeah. So, while you were doing that, was Alex a voice of reason? Was he like what was his or even the other other Catholics?

>> Were they like, "What are you doing? No, stop."

>> Yeah. He told me not to go. Um he was like, "Man, when once they find out that you're not Catholic, they're going to I mean that you're not Orthodox, they're going to kick you out of there." And but it was the opposite experience. I walk in, I was welcomed right away. Are you new here? Have you ever been here before? Have you ever attended divine liturgy? They handed me a paper icon. They gave me a CD of the founding pastor's sermons on it. And I was like, I was already blown away. And

>> well, that perception was probably based on like what we see online, maybe. Right.

>> Right. Yeah. Yeah. because it's a real experience. There are stories where people walk into a Greek Orthodox church historically and and they were kicked out because they were either not Greek or they were Catholic. So, that is a real experience that people have shared online. I've never experienced it and I I don't know anybody that has experienced that, but it was definitely something that people have shared online that that was their experience.

>> Okay. And so, you said you kept going to Catholic churches while you're going to Orthodox churches? How were you like

>> that seems like a lot to do.

>> Yeah, it was.

>> And also the divine liturgy is pretty long as well.

>> For the most part. I mean, usually like an hour and a half to two hours.

>> Okay.

>> On average, unless it's a specific feast day, it might go a little bit closer to three hours or if the bishop is visiting it might be a little bit longer. But

>> yeah, at the time when I was exploring orthodoxy, I actually wasn't a serious Catholic still. You know, even though I was attending the Eastern Right Catholic Church, it still took me a while to pick up the habits of what it means to be a Christian. So, I wasn't going to liturgy every Sunday. And it was perfectly fine in my mind to skip the Catholic liturgy and and to say, "Well, God is present at the Eastern Orthodox Church. Why, you know, God would understand that I'm in the presence of him over here. He's not going to care that I didn't go to the Catholic church." That was my original line of thinking at the time. You know, over time, I started to understand the Catholic faith a little more and understand the seriousness. For the longest time, I actually didn't practice as a Catholic. A lot of people have this misconception that I was like a bonafide serious Catholic wanting to start an Orthodox page. And that's where they start to see like this uh this discrepancy or this tension. It's like, why would you be a bonafide Catholic that is a you know, a diehard papist, but you're promoting the Eastern Orthodox Church? That doesn't make sense. Well, that's because that's not what was happening. I was not a serious Catholic. That came much later. And I wasn't a practicing Catholic until, you know, much much later. Um I I didn't even go to confession. I didn't receive the Eucharist. I made it a point that I wasn't going to receive the Eucharist until I had made my decision about which church I wanted to go to. And I stayed that way for for quite some time. I would say even almost a year not doing the sacraments. But something happened. uh God intervened and how he intervened was actually very interesting. We go to an eastern right Catholic church and I take my family and my daughter is baptized Latin right and so she in the eastern tradition when somebody gets received into the Catholic church you I mean yeah into the Catholic church or the Orthodox church you receive all three sacraments of initiation baptism crismation or confirmation and holy communion all at once all in the same service. Um, so my my daughter, she's baptized, but she's never received communion and she's not crisismated. But one day we had a a priest, a sitting priest, a visiting priest, and we go up in the line of communion, and my wife is taking my daughter, and my daughter usually goes up just to receive a blessing. But this priest, he doesn't know because the kids at the church receive the Eucharist. So, he gives my daughter the Eucharist. It just happens so fast. And then we get back to, you know, our our spot and my wife tells me, "Hey, you know, she just received the Eucharist. Like, what should we do?" And I and I look at her and she doesn't know what she had just put in her mouth. So, she like almost wants to spit it out. So, I was like, "Oh, shoot." Like, I know enough that this would be sacrilege or this would be desecrating of the of the sacrament to let the spill on the floor just get wiped away on a shirt. So, I told her to spit it into my hands. I told my daughter, "Just spit it into my hands." So she spit out the Eucharist into my hands and then I consumed it. And the Eucharist in the Eastern tradition uses leavened bread. So it's an actual piece of bread and it's dipped into the wine into the blood. And so yeah, so she, you know, gives it to me and I just consume it. I lick my hands clean, make sure that nothing fell or, you know, it was slipping through the cracks. But yeah, I took that as a sign like, okay, maybe God wants me to start partaking of the sacraments. And then, but actually, it wasn't immediately apparent to me at that time. I did go a little bit longer without receiving the sacraments again. It took a while because I started getting a bunch of spiritual attacks, a lot of spiritual attacks, demonic attacks, and nothing was helping. And I was like, you know what? You know what it is? It's it's that I'm not going to confession. I think that's what it is. So, it was actually one of my interviews. Uh, Father Michael Lachlin, he's an Eastern Right Catholic priest. I did an interview with him and after the interview, I was just like, "Hey, Father, can you hear my confession?" And he's like, "Yeah, sure." And I was like, "I haven't confessed in four years." Like, and he's like, "Wow." Like, you know, I was running this Christian channel like interviewing people and he was surprised to hear that like I haven't been partaking. So, that's what got me to start partaking of the sacraments. After I did my first confession after 4 years, that was it. That was the click. It was that the spiritual attacks, they stopped. And when they came back and I went back to confession, they would go away. So, I knew that it was the grace of God that I was missing that that type of grace from the sacraments. Um, but I forgot your original question. What were you what were you asking me?

>> No, that was great. I was curious about um how you were managing Sundays uh you know between going to a Catholic mass and a divine liturgy.

>> Um but yeah, no that that clears it up. That's interesting. Yeah. And and I've had the same experience with confession as well. It's I mean, man, I I say it all the time, but Father Carlos Martins, the famous exorcist, he has the the Exorcist Files podcast. Really good podcast.

>> Um he always says that one confession has the power of a thousand exorcisms.

>> And that like blew me away when I heard it. But thinking back, it is absolutely true because, you know, I had a lot of demonic experiences as well. I had a lot of um I would say maybe even demonic uh oppression or demonic

>> uh I'm trying to think of the right word, whatever. But anyways, um struggled with some sins that are unfortunately very common nowadays, especially among men,

>> but also among women. And it wasn't until I started going to confession that I was like able to make any progress on this front.

>> And it really, you know, it just seems like a thing like, well, you're just going into a box and saying some words to a priest and then he says some words to you and makes you feel nice and happy inside. But it actually did. It actually did have a spiritual effect on me and like strengthen my willpower somehow in a way that doesn't make sense otherwise.

>> Right. I I actually like that quote that you said that uh confession is stronger than 100 exorcisms.

>> A thousand

>> I think a thousand exorcisms. Wow. It makes sense because a confession is uh synergistic. It's two parties voluntarily coming together. You know, you come as the penitant in confession and you have to humble yourself in humility to receive that grace. And God of course he he welcomes us like the father in the story of the prodigal son. He runs to us and he receives us and he reconciles us to him. Whereas an exorcism, I mean, there's times the demons don't want to be cast out and the person probably, you know, there's many times that person probably doesn't even know what's what's happening.

>> So, I I can definitely see that.

>> Yeah. And then like not to go on a tangent about about exorcisms, but um the father Carlos Martins's and this is a common thing with exorcists, they will make sure that the person goes to confession before the exorcism because you have to like sacramentally renounce these sins in order for the exorcism to be able to be effective. Because when you commit a mortal sin or if you're just like unbaptized, you are legally technically speaking in the spiritual world, you're under the dominion of Satan. You are like

>> property of Satan. And in the economy of how things work in the spiritual world, he has like a legitimate claim over you. And so until you take care of that through the sacrament of confession,

>> the priest is like there's not much that the priest can do because you're technically the property of Satan until you take care of that either through baptism or confession. That's why infant baptism is so important too. But

>> yeah,

>> that's a whole other whole other tangent that we could get into. But um

>> so speaking of infant baptism and family, how is your family taking all of this as you're exploring? Like cuz I'm assuming, and you can correct me if if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming like you and your wife are married, you baptize your kids, but you're still pretty much culturally Catholic, not really practicing the faith,

>> and then all of a sudden you start taking your faith more seriously, but not only that, you start exploring

>> uh you know, a different expression of the faith in the Eastern Orthodox Church. How is your wife and how are your kids like

>> processing all of this at the time?

>> My wife is just very patient with me, you know. She wasn't um she just let me do my thing. She let me go run off and be a loose, you know, a loose dog out there just trying to find his way. But she's very patient with me. She's very Catholic. She she wasn't going to budge regardless of my decision. But she would have been supportive of whatever I decided to do. Um, but it definitely would have made things difficult because there were times when I did want to take the kids to the divine liturgy and so we'd have to like split it and kind of just figure out how we're going to do this like if she's going to go to the Catholic mass but I'm taking the kids with me to divine liturgy and my son he he loved it. My son felt right at home at the Orthodox church and he he was so cute. He you know he'd just go up and start venerating icons and just really being a part of it and my my daughter just would sing the songs you know. So the children are just so ready to receive the Christian faith and they were very open to orthodoxy. But yeah, there was going to be a tension there because you have to figure out like, well, if one person's going to stay Catholic, one person's going to stay one person's going to become Orthodox, it's going to cause a lot of problems, especially with navigating, you know, the liturgies and feast days and what you're doing and how that impacts the the family life. But yeah, no, she's overall she was very supportive and and very patient with me.

>> Nice. Yeah, that's that's important. Yeah, my my wife was really patient with me too, man. Cuz I was when I was with her, I was an atheist. Like a vehement atheist. I thought religion should be illegal.

>> And I know, ridiculous. And then um and then I became a Protestant and she was like, "Okay, like I don't know." And then I'm looking into Catholicism and then I became a Lutheran and through all of that kind of the same thing. She's like, "You need to go figure that out for yourself

>> and then come back and talk to me about it."

>> Uh

>> yeah. Come back with the results after you already done everything.

>> Yeah. But she was

>> What was she at the time?

>> She was basically agnostic.

>> Okay.

>> Just kind of apathetic about the whole God question.

>> Yeah.

>> As many are.

>> Right.

>> But yeah, she was secular life.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she was raised Buddhist but um wasn't like practicing into adulthood and

>> uh yeah but since then as people know she has now become Catholic

>> uh last was it last year? Yeah, last year

>> she was baptized, confirmed and first communion and all that.

>> So

>> Wow. Glory to God.

>> Praise God. Awesome. And it was because in large part because of the Exorcist Files podcast.

>> Totally.

>> Yeah.

>> I have to check it out.

>> Yeah. She she was like, I believe in some kind of a spiritual world, but I don't think any religion has it, you know, perfectly understood. And so kind of just like this deist/aggnostic type of uh position. And then when she heard the exorcist files, it's it's not only is it just stories of exorcism, which is like really interesting, but it's also a lot of kateesus on spiritual stuff like mortal sin and baptism and all this stuff. and she was like, "Oh, this actually is like a well thoughtout system of understanding the spiritual world that I already kind of believe exists." And so she was like, "Okay, I think the if anybody has it right, it's a Catholics." So,

>> um, but that's a that's a whole other story we could we could go down, but okay. So, you do all that. As you're going through this explor exploration of orthodoxy, what are some things that you were looking for that would have made you be like, "Yes, I'm going to become Orthodox for sure." I think it's really predicated, you know, both Catholics and Orthodox, we value the scriptural witness and the petristic witness. So if it aligns with the scriptures, if it aligns with what the church fathers teach and what if it aligns with the ecumenical councils. So those councils of east and west when they were gathered together in a conior form, what did they teach and is that consistent with either side? And the first millennium is very interesting. You have a lot of different events that take place. I mean you see the legalization of Christianity. You see Christianity adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire. You see the emperor moving the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinople. You see a lot of development over time with how the Christian faith, you know, crosses over into different regions and it as it starts to grow as as it starts to really fulfill what Christ called us to do, you know, to to make disciples of all nations. So what to answer your question, what I was looking for is is the are the orthodox claims true and is it consistent with the overall historical narrative and can it be found in the scriptures? And because we share so much in common, it's really hard to figure out what exactly we're looking for. It wasn't until I looked at the uniqueness of the claims that were being made by the Catholic Church. So the Catholic Church is the only church in the entire world that claims that Christ established a visible church governed by a visible earthly head and that earthly head is singular and he reigns in perpetuity through his successors because of the promise Christ gave to St. Peter. So it's the only church in the world that believes this. So, it's almost easier if you examine the Catholic claims first because if you can rule this out, then it's not on the table. And for me, orthodoxy and Catholicism were the only two options on the table. I wasn't going to search the Protestant denominations. And at the time, I didn't really know anything about oriental orthodoxy or the Assyrian Church of the East. You know, two other claimments of being the one holy, Catholic, and apostolic church. But we can table that for now. For me, it's just

>> why why was Protestantism off the table for you?

>> Protestantism was off the table for me because the Protestants that I knew personally, they didn't make any sense to me. Even as an outsider, as somebody who didn't care about Christianity, I had an experience with a Protestant pastor. Uh I there was one summer after high school where I was helping a friend be part of a volunteer group and he asked me if I wanted to join the volunteer group and I said, "Sure." It was some type of weird Korean Protestant group and he liked one of the girls in the group so he always was was with them and he wanted me to be a part of it just to kind of keep him company. So I did I helped him out over the summer and there was one particular time that we were volunteering and then there was like a Protestant service somewhere at a church. So it was always involved with some type of church service and we go to the service and because we were volunteers we get like a VIP talk with the pastor at the end of it. So after the service is done. At the time I didn't know the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. The church looked like a Catholic church and we're having this VIP meeting with the pastor and the stuff he starts saying and he's talking to us about it didn't make any sense whatsoever. He believed in once saved always saved. So he was making the claim that doesn't matter what we do, we can live however we please because he already accepted the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into his heart and he's already been saved. So anything after that? It doesn't really matter. And I and I was the only person in the room like questioning it. I was like, am I the only person hearing this? And so I was challenging him and he got he got a little bit annoyed that I was the only person that was kind of pushing him on this belief. And he singled me out in front of the whole group and he said, "Jonathan," he's like, "I can kill somebody right now and I'm still going to heaven." And when he told me that, my faith was like, "There is no way this is real. There's no way a god is this dumb that this would be acceptable." I said, "This is this faith is weak. It it's not a true faith." So for me, for that reason, Protestantism wasn't really on the table. And especially because seeing the thousands of different denominations all having and professing different beliefs and practices, but all saying that they are doing so on the basis of the scriptures. It it's very very obvious, very obvious even for for me as an outsider that this doesn't make sense. The scripture has no agency. So it can't tell you how to interpret it. You need an outside authority. I think this is pretty clear. It's very clear. It's very logical and it follows that you do need an authority. And then when you look into church history, turns out there is an authority and the Bible didn't just come out of nowhere. And there was a process that took place in order to know what is exactly in the Bible. So because of this and many other various dilemmas and issues within Protestantism, it was completely off the table for me. I didn't even consider it for a second. Um, but orthodoxy and Catholicism were very similar enough for me to to say what are the differentiating factors that I need to look at to determine which one is the true church because Christ established one true church and he passed his teachings on and his authority to the apostles and their successors until the present day. So, we need to find out what what is that one true church. And for me it was examining those papal claims. Taking a look at okay what is it exactly that the Catholic Church is defining as their papal claims. So I took a look at that. I took a look at Vatican 1. You know this idea of primacy of jurisdiction and papal infallibility. Can I find these two teachings consonant with the early church and the scriptures? And at first glance, it almost seems impossible. How are you going to find this head of the church who rules over everybody and he lords it over everybody? And not only that, but he's infallible. How does that even make sense that a man could claim such power for himself? It's very clear that this is a deviation from the one true faith. But turns out when you get past misrepresentations and you get past the straw man positions, the papal claims are very much present in the first millennium and they're actually made manifest in the first millennium and they're attested to and they're witnessed by both east and west. And we can get into some of the reasons that I found if you'd like to, you know, especially in the scriptures. I think the scriptures have a strong commulative case for presenting this headship of the papal office of of St. Peter in exercising his papal office. I think it's very evident in the scriptures and then you obviously see it in the centuries succeeding the the establishment of the church.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's I do want to get into that. Um, but I'm curious about what time during your whole exploration, uh, around what time was this starting to become apparent to you that the papacy claims were actually, you know, properly understood, were actually true. It's a good question because it's funny because um, Alex, Voice of Reason, he had told me from day one, you know, go on this journey and you're going to see it just comes right back comes right back to what we're what we're telling you. And I I didn't want to listen because I wanted the Eastern Orthodox Church to be true. And so I did my research online and I you know Michael Loftton has a really good book called Answering Orthodoxy. And in the opening pages here I have it right here.

>> Nice.

>> In the opening pages he opens it with Proverbs 18:17. He who states his case uh at first seems right until the other comes and examines him. That was certainly my experience in orthodoxy. If you listen to their case, if you listen to their presentation of church history and primacy, you're like, "This makes sense." Of course, you know, how could you think otherwise that the, you know, that the church is not collegial and it's not consilier? How could you think otherwise? But then you actually listen to what the Catholic Church actually is teaching and what the position actually holds, you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. It's actually not what I thought it was." The the the differences are actually uh made very clear by the Catholic Church and it's being supported by everything that we hold to be authoritative, the scriptures, the church fathers, and the ecumenical councils themselves.

>> Right on. So then as you're going through exploring these Orthodox churches, how does your experience of Orthodoxy because I'm assuming you didn't just have this realization that stop going to Orthodox churches? So like was this a slow thing that you're starting to realize and how is that affecting your experience as like trying to go to Orthodox liturgies and things like that?

>> Yeah. Well, the liturgy I love it so much and I love my experience at the Eastern Orthodox Church so much that it actually doesn't affect it at all. It it really didn't not even it didn't affect my relationships. It didn't affect how I viewed the people there. And it didn't affect my experience at the liturgy because as a Catholic, we affirm that they have a valid sacraments, valid apostolic succession, valid priesthood, true Eucharist. So when I'm there, I'm like, yo, I I'm truly in the presence of God here. My prayers are being offered up. I am worshiping alongside these Orthodox Christians, but I don't get to partake of the holy mysteries, unfortunately. But God is here and I'm I'm putting my I'm trying to put my best to put my heart in the right place. So it did it didn't really affect me. Um one of the things that I would tell people throughout my journey is that intellectually Catholicism made sense but my heart was always in the Orthodox church. But eventually you get to a point where you have to make a decision and you can't compromise on truth. So I said it has to be, you know, it it has to be that you're grounded in truth and not based off of what you want it to be true.

>> Right. Interesting. Yeah. And I think what you're talking about is like honestly we get caught up in so many different issues of you know the mar and dogmas which I love talking about or transubstantiation all these other different issues but I think you were focusing on probably the most defining question of whether Catholicism is true which is the papacy because that's the only if the papacy is true

>> then the Catholic Church is is the true church then the transubstantiation is true, the Marian dogmas are true. All that stuff is like a domino effect after you confirm the papacy and then it's a matter of understanding those things so that you can be united to that truth. But so as you're exploring that, what's kind of you said the scriptures were one of the things that started to

>> right

>> be very clear that the papacy was being demonstrated in the scriptures. What was like the first thing you saw in the scriptures where you were like, "Oh, wait. That's actually pointing me towards a Catholic church."

>> Yeah. When I really took a look at our principal text for defining the uh Petrine headship, you know, we take a look at Matthew 16:18. But before we actually read those verses, you can take a step back and say, "Okay, who was this gospel written for? Who is the gospel writer writing to? Who is the gospel author writing to?" And we know that the gospel author is writing to first century Jewish Christians. So there's a reason why I start there because the overarching theme of the gospel of Matthew is speaking to Jewish people which is why he opens the gospel by going through extreme lengths at showing the lineage and the genealogy of Christ starting uh from Abraham with the covenant God made you know with Abraham all the way down through generations and generations through the house of David all the way down to St. Joseph. And there's a specific reason that Matthew is doing this. There's also a reason why Jewish traditions, customs, idioms, expressions are mentioned in this gospel without explanation. So the gospel author is already taking for granted that the people reading this text already know what he's talking about. and he has nearly 200 references to the Old Testament Jewish scriptures. And there's a prophet that he names more than anybody. The prophet that he names more than every than anybody else in the Gospel of Matthew is Isaiah. So it's like, okay, this is starting to make sense to a Jewish ear. When they got to the point of Matthew 16:18, when they hear the language that is being used there, you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church. I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, you know, this language of binding and loosing. that would have been very very familiar to the Jewish ear because it would have resonated with a passage from the Old Testament scriptures in Isaiah. Isaiah 22, the language of the keys of the house of David when Eliakim succeeds Shbna as the prime minister in the absence of the king. What what you shall open none shall shut what you know what you shall shut none shall open. This parallel, this structural parallel is very unique. Now, somebody might say, well, later on in Matthew, two verse, two chapters later in Matthew 18, the apostles also get this ability, this this um this authority to bind and loose. So, I mean, I don't know how you're singling Peter out there. Well, if you look at the typological case, starting with Isaiah, the office is singular. The office is singular. uh Eliakim is made the steward. When you look at what's happening in Matthew 16:18, Peter is being made the steward. He's being made the chief of the apostles, the shepherd over Christ's flock. And we don't just have Matthew 16:18 to go off of. But it is I I I would say it is a principal text for us because it's that important. And there's a reason that Matthew 16:18, the narrative that it's taking place there is only found in Matthew. There's a reason for that because Matthew is speaking to the Jewish Christians, those those Jews that would have understood what is taking place. And of course, we have other verses in in other gospels. We have John 21, you know, Peter being restored but also being conferred a special role over the flock of Christ. You know, feed my lambs. Uh uh you know, feed my sheep, tend my lambs. You see that language. And then of course in Luke 22 you see the um um uh I pray that your faith not fail. There's all of these connections that we make that we can make drawing from the scriptures. Um and then we see how the the the the headship. So for for me it was important to see that this headship is biblical.

>> St. Peter's headship is biblical and the authority is passed on through his successors. Now we know that he established three seas. He established Antioch first and then Alexandria by way of Mark and then Rome. And why do we single out Rome? Because Rome is where Peter met his martyeric end. And this is where he discharged the fullness of his authority. And it was through Rome that the lineage of his successors of that specific office, the keyholder, the keyholder is carried on in succession. Now, I've watched Orthodox apologetics videos, Orthodox rebuttals against Catholic claims. One of the um rebuttals that people would say here is that well all of the apostles have keys because it says in Matthew 18:18 that you know they are also given the authority to bind and loose sins. What is the prerogative of being the keyholder? It's that you can bind and loose sins. It's that you can have um rights to of jurisdiction. It's that you can retain and forgive sins. It's that um you can um you know uh forgot the term but something having to do with authority in disciplinary matters settled disputes all of these things but the keyh holder in Peter in that office is actually unique and there's actually not a single church father not actually not one there's not one I looked it up not a single church father makes that connection and says that the apostles have the keys also you get close to it if If you read um St. Cyprien of Carthage, if you read Origin of Alexandria and surprisingly even St. Augustine, you get language that is close to talking about how there is equality among the apostles. But in other writings, they talk about the unique headship of Peter. But also when they do mention the equality of all the apostles, they make sure to single out that St. Peter is the principle of unity and that he was um given the authority first. So there's some nuance to it. But if you're looking for a father in the early church that says that all of the apostles receive the keys, you're not going to find one explicitly. You might try and make a case that there's an implicit connection

Or that this is what they mean by what they say, but you're not going to find one. Um, and so, yeah, if you, if you take a look at that, the early church fathers, they've always affirmed that St. Peter is the chief of the apostles. You see it more importantly than what they say, watch what they do. It's really the actions that matter. How did the pope act? How did he settle doctrinal disputes? How did he, you know, how was he appealed to? How was he treated? Did he feel like he had the authority to intervene in other jurisdictions to settle doctrinal disputes? Did he truly feel like he had a special charism or prerogative as being the unique successor of St. Peter? And the answer is yes. You can read Pope St. Leo the Great. You can read, um, Pope St. Agatho. You can read Pope St. Hermis. The, the proof of the pudding is there. And the evidence was too strong for me to ignore. When I saw this, I was like, this is verbatim, line for line, literally line for line what Vatican 1 is teaching. I want to share a quick example. I don't want to ramble too much, but >> No, go for it. >> Vatican 1, Pastor Aeternus. This is the principal document. This is Vatican 1, 19th century. This is the principal document that is used to talk about the papal claims. It's called Pastoris. It means the eternal shepherd. This is what it says in Vatican 1. It says, "It is doubtful to no one. No, it has been known to all ages that holy and blessed Peter, the prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of the faith, the foundation of the Catholic Church, received from our Lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, the keys of the kingdom, and that to him was given the power of binding and loosing sins, who until this day and forever lives and judges in his successors." So we read that in Vatican 1. Of course, Orthodox reject this. This is a much later council. This is the 20th ecumenical council for the Catholic Church. The schism took place, you know, sometime in the 11th or 12th century, depending on how you date it. Here's the, here's, here's the bad part for everybody is that this is actually not from Vatican 1. It's not native to Vatican 1. They're actually directly quoting from the Council of Ephesus at 4:31. This is a council that all of us hold as authoritative and infallible. Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholics. We all hold this council to be authoritative. This was said out loud at the council and nobody said, "Wait a minute, Philip. This is, uh, this is heresy. What are you talking about?" Nobody. Everyone said, "Amen. This is true." Yes. So you have this language used in the first millennium. If you speak to Orthodox, it almost, you can almost get the impression that you would be crazy to think that language of papal supremacy could be present in the first millennium, but it's very obvious that it is. Now, we can debate, well, what did they mean? What did they mean when they said this? That's a different, that's a different story. But if you're going to say that the language wasn't present in the first millennium, that is just simply not true. It 100% is. And once I read Pope St. Agatho's letter on and how it explicates this teaching of papal infallibility or how it implies this teaching of papal infallibility, when you read the formula of St. Hermis, you read all of these conciliar or, yeah, you read these conciliar texts or letters that are read at councils and it just blows you away. You're like, this is crazy. Exactly what you guys are telling me doesn't exist is actually present in the first millennium. Not only that, but when these things are said, the patriarchs of the other seas, what do they do? They say, they say, "Amen. You are the holy head." They consent to it. They agree. They never resist. They never say, "Where'd you get this idea from?" Like, I, I. And here's the crazy part is the popes, when they speak this way, they're always invoking Petrine language, the Petrine texts. They'll, they'll cite Matthew 16:18 as the reason why they can do these things. They'll cite Luke 22 and John 21. So this idea that the Catholics made this up, it's, you're going to have a hard time when you're actually engaging with the conciliar texts and the church fathers. If you read the church fathers, even the Eastern ones, they, some of their phrasing of what they believe the pope to be is, is you're almost speechless when you read it and you're like, I can't believe that an Eastern father just said these things. If you read St. Maximus the Confessor, you know, if you read, um, any of the Western saints, I mean, if you read any of the popes, you're going to be blown away by the language that is being presented there. And it's just, um, it shows that the evidence is there. But of course, we can debate what do they mean when they said this language. But I just wanted to get everyone there first is that the language is present in the first millennium. And nobody should tell you otherwise because they would be lying if they said it wasn't.

>> Yeah, man. That was that was a lot. I want to, there's so many places I want to go with all of this, but I want to go to what you were talking about earlier, um, about the Old Testament connections between what you were describing was like the, the Davidic kingdom and how that's fulfilled in, in Christ's kingdom and the fulfillment of that.

>> I, I was talking with some Protestant friends last night and I brought up an argument that I've kind of been thinking about and I'm not sure if it sounds stupid. So, this is like the second time I'm saying it out loud to another person. So, tell me if this sounds stupid, but it, we could talk about different examples whether, whether it's Mary or, we'll stick to the papacy for the sake of this conversation, but >> there's Old Testament prefigurements of things that Jesus Christ comes to fulfill in the New Testament. And especially with what you're describing with the, the keys, when, when the angel Gabriel tells Mary about her son that she's gonna, uh, conceive virginally, he tells her that he's going to be called the son of the Most High and that he's going to be given the throne of David on which he will reign forever. And the throne of David matters. Like, it matters that that is specified because that's pointing back to the, what you were describing, the, the keys, the representative, the right-hand man of the king.

>> Um, and so there's these connections and then there's also connections between the apostles and the governors of, of the Davidic kingdom. There's 12 governors of the Davidic kingdom. So it's not just that, yeah, he's given, he's being given the throne of David, but that only has some kind of a superficial meaning to it. Like this actually means something. And it means that the new kingdom that Jesus is restoring is going to have some resemblance, a lot of resemblance to that Davidic kingdom that it is, in fact, restoring. And so the argument I was trying to make was that when we talk about what makes a good author, we think about an author that takes small details at the beginning of a story and brings them back and, uh, you know, connects them to the ending of the story. You know, we, we see like all at the end of a book that's really good, you'll see like all these little details that I thought were just meaningless, they actually came together and they actually had an impact on the ending of the story and like, whoa, like this blows my mind. And so when we see that with the scriptures, we obviously all believe, no matter what Christian tradition we're part of, that God is the author of the scriptures and that God is a far better author than any human could possibly be. And so if God makes connections like this in the Old Testament >> and connects things to the New Testament, >> that actually means something. It's not just an empty thing that he's doing because that would be a >> that would be the mark of a bad author if you're drawing connections >> that actually don't matter. For example, everybody got on, um, >> everybody got mad at the creators of Stranger Things because on the finale, you know, spoiler alert, whatever. Uh, >> they're fighting the final boss, but meanwhile, those like dogs that have been fighting everybody throughout the, I don't know if you watched it, so maybe this doesn't make sense. >> I've never seen it. No. >> It's fine. But there's these monster dogs throughout the, throughout the series. But for some reason, at the finale, while they're about to kill the boss, these dogs are nowhere to be seen. They're called demogorgons, I think. And so everyone was like, "Well, why didn't these, why didn't they come to save their boss?" And the creators were like, "Oh, well, they had some stupid excuse." But that's the mark of a bad author. That's the mark of a bad storyteller. Somebody who isn't able to connect all of these storylines together and has to make some kind of a bad excuse for why those didn't come, like, play out. And God isn't a bad author. He's a good author. And so when we do see connections between the Davidic kingdom and Christ's restoration of that kingdom, or the ark of the Old Covenant and Mary as the ark of the New Covenant, these connections actually have some deeper meaning because if they didn't, God would be a bad author. I don't know. Let me know what you think of that. Maybe that's all.

>> No, that's actually the point that's being made is that there's a structured parallel and we see typological setting, a typological setting in the Old Testament. Many times that prefigures or is a parallel to many things that we see in the, in the, um, in the New Testament. And, you know, it's funny because, well, I have my Ignatius Press Study Bible here. I just want to always give >> give them a shout out because they sent this to me. But this, this has been really helpful. Let me see. Am I going the wrong way? Boom. I was just reading this morning the Gospel of Matthew. And, you know, the gospel writer, he's holding their hand the whole time in, in this gospel. He's literally holding their hand, trying to walk them into this idea that Jesus is the fulfillment of the, um, anticipation of the Messiah and that, you know, he's really like the new Moses and he's the new lawgiver. And, you know, time and time again, he says things like this. He says, this is, uh, Matthew 8 verse, uh, 17, "This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah." And then he would go on to quote. So he, he, he's holding their hands and showing them, this is what Isaiah, this is why he said this. This is the fulfillment of this. And I think that's really important bringing that up because I think it gets overlooked often, that connection that who the gospel is addressing and why we see certain things in this gospel that we don't see even amongst the other synoptic gospels that are supposed to be very similar to the Gospel of Matthew, but it's not. And the structure, you know, some scholars have looked at the structure of the Gospel of Matthew and said that it, it resembles a type of Pentateuch in a sense in the way that the narratives are constructed. It, it's really, you know, the gospel author, I mean, he was divinely inspired. I mean, just the way he constructed is like, it's very, very impressive. But I think that's the point we need to hammer home. This was written for Jews to understand certain things. The language of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, that's unique and, and, and he's, um, emphasizing this headship and that it's biblical. And we see it exercised through the, the popes and the successors of the popes. So it, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. We're not making a claim and you don't see anything that comes from the claim. No, we see the actions that are taken on the basis of Matthew 16:18. And the popes themselves, they'll tell us, they'll tell us. They say, you know, on the basis of Matthew 16:18, you know, due to the promise that Christ gave to Peter, I do this or >> Yeah. >> I have this authority to do this. So it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It existed. And the first millennium is full. It's replete with examples of utilizing these Petrine texts to justify papal authority.

>> Yeah, that's awesome. That's very well put. Yeah. And the whole reason I bring up like the, the good author type of argument is like people hear typological arguments and they kind of, you know, either people are really impressed by them or they just kind of like, whatever. I don't really care because they're like, okay, yeah, maybe there is some connection between that the author is making between, you know, the ark of the covenant and Mary, but like, that doesn't actually impact Mariology. That's just like a cool thing that that the author did. But it's like, well, >> why would the author do that if it didn't have any deeper meaning? >> Um, right. >> But not to stay on that for too long. One of the things that people bring up when it comes to the papacy is that, uh, for one, in the first, you know, you see the, the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, >> um, Polycarp, these, these wonderful, um, saints in the early church and martyrs, but like, there's no clear articulation of the papacy by any of these early writers. It's not until, you know, depending on who you are, you might give a different date to when we do see a more clear description of the papacy. But why wasn't this something that was like defined? We have the Didache in the early church. Like, why wouldn't the Didache articulate these things? Why, what >> what would you say to somebody who asked you that?

>> Yeah, I think I would be gentle in this approach because I, I also would acknowledge that we can't pretend to extrapolate the papal claims off of a line that you read in, let's say, Ignatius, who says that the church of Rome presides in love, or St. Irenaeus, that says that the preeminence of the church is because of its superior origin because that's where Peter and Paul died. You, you can read those lines, but I wouldn't jump from like, I wouldn't use those texts to support what I was saying earlier. I wouldn't say, okay, St. Irenaeus said that the church of Rome has certain preeminence. It, it's, it's of superior origin. So therefore, papal supremacy and papal infallibility. I don't, I don't make that leap. But it does attest to this idea that Rome does have a presidency to some degree. Obviously, you know, St. Ignatius, when he was writing, he was literally writing his letters on his way to his martyrdom. He had seven letters that we have to this day that have, you know, remained with us. And we can't expect in those seven letters for him to expound on like a, a big theological treatise or a big ecclesiological treatise. He did write extensively about the, the structure of the church and and having the importance of obeying the bishop, but we just don't get enough from Ignatius that we would wish that he had written more of. And it, this is the case with, um, a lot of the church fathers. We wish that we still had their writings. Fortunately, we don't. If Ignatius were here today, it'd be very simple just to ask him like, what did you mean by this or how do, how do you view the, the pope? But unfortunately, we don't have those records. But it does say something that we can have this precedency. He said that the Rome, the church of Rome presides in love. So we have a precedent for this elevation of Rome, that Rome is unique. And we, we follow that up with other church fathers. But more importantly, going back to what I said, take a look at how they behave. If you look at Pope St. Clement of Rome, what did he do? He intervened in the affairs of another church. Um, you know, the jurisdiction that that was outside of his, in the church of Corinth, you know, >> And that's in the first century. >> He went outside of his jurisdiction >> in the first century. And from what we do have, we have, you know, some of his letters. Uh, we have a letter and he, in the letter, he doesn't mince words. He's pretty, uh, harsh with, with what he's saying and he truly believes that he has the authority to do this and nobody, you know, batted an eye and said, "Hey, who are you and why do you, why do you think that you have the authority to do this?" Then you have subsequent popes, you know, Pope St. Victor, who threatens to excommunicate the churches in Asia Minor over the date of Easter and, you know, it was St. Polycarp, actually, that he used, you know, some diplomacy in settling that and, and, and making sure that it doesn't get to the point where he actually excommunicates them. But nobody challenged his authority and said, "Who are you to excommunicate this church?" And, and there, there's, um, some people say, "Well, churches excommunicate each other all the time." But when Pope St. Victor was threatening to excommunicate, um, these churches, it was, he was threatening to excommunicate them from the Catholic Church, from the church universal, not just from the see of Rome. So we see the actions back up this idea of preeminence. And we can affirm, you know, when they, when I, I would say this to the Catholic, don't overemphasize or don't overstate the words in the, um, like let's say St. Ignatius or St. Irenaeus. Don't pretend that you can actually draw more from it than you can. You know, use it, but also use other texts to support it. Other church history events and of course the scriptural basis and also, you know, the connections of like St. Ignatius being a disciple of St. John, you know, lay the context out, but don't draw too much. I, I, I wouldn't overstate the case based off of that. But like I said earlier, we do have a precedent for showing the preeminence of Rome early on. It, it, it wasn't just another see. It wasn't just another, uh, church. It had a special and unique role in the life of the church.

>> Yeah. And like to, to hammer home the Saint Pope St. Clement the first point, he says in his letter essentially, I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember that accurately, but he does say that, "You would do well to heed what God is speaking through us to you, >> and if you do not obey us, you will involve yourself in no small transgression." So essentially saying, God is speaking to us through you, through the church of Rome, to the church in Corinth, and if you don't obey the church in Rome, at least right now, you know, we can, we can be humble with with the point you're making, but if you don't obey what we're saying to you, you are sinning against God because God is speaking through us. That's a big claim. And the, the church in Corinth, you know, under the, Protestant or even the Orthodox view of church authority, could have just said, "Well, you don't have jurisdiction here." Or maybe, "We all have jurisdiction everywhere. Maybe we can all correct each other." Well, then why can't the church in Corinth say, "Actually, you're wrong and you're sinning against God for not listening to us?" But that's not really >> what we see happen. And that's not what anybody would have thought would be reasonable at the time, even if you don't take like the full papal supremacy view, um, that, that you might say Vatican 1 puts forth. But I think it's pretty clear that like something was going on there that people didn't really have the option to question, at least according to >> Pope St. Clement the first.

>> Yeah. And I think it's very important for us to make this distinction. Is Vatican 1 inventing something new? Is it teaching something new? Or is it drawing from holy tradition to make its claims? And as I showed in the quote here from the Council of Ephesus, it's drawing out from the Council of Ephesus to make these claims. This claim. You know, St. John Henry Newman, a doctor of the church, he's the one who really, um, formulates this idea of doctrinal development. But even that's not entirely new. You know, we see this idea of doctrinal development in St. Vincent of Lérins in his Commonitorium in the fifth century. So St. John Henry Newman in his, um, definition of doctrinal development, he is talking about how a doctrine, if it's organic, it has a way of being teased out. It has a way of being articulated over time the more we understand certain things. Uh, for example, I mean, if you look at the early church, the early church was very much defining things in the sense of, you have something that was already believed, like the consubstantiality of Christ with the Father, that was already believed, but it was defined much later. This is an example of doctrinal development. The question is, is it something new or is it organic? And there's this idea of doctrinal corruption, that's when you introduce something new that wasn't there to begin with. So it's like a child growing up into an adult. He's maturing into an adult. He's still the same person. But if a child all of a sudden turns into a tree, that would be an example of doctrinal corruption. It didn't follow the original path, the original premise. So that's all doctrinal development is saying. And all of our churches agree with it. All of our churches, even if they don't want to say it, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Catholic Church, we all believe in doctrinal development and it's not a new idea. I said St. Vincent of Lérins has a version of it in his Commonitorium. And he was also famous for saying that the way to identify orthodox Christian teaching is to observe those things that were, that were taught everywhere, always, and by all. This is his famous Vincentian, uh, canon. And if you pay attention to that language, he says, you have to observe what people have taught everywhere, always, and by all, universality, antiquity, and consent. What does the Council of Ephesus 4:31 say? Uh, Philip the Leagate starts it off by saying, "Let it be known that in all ages it was known that Peter was, you know, given the promise." And then he goes on and says, "He's a pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church." So, Council of Ephesus is not inventing something new and Vatican 1 is not inventing something new. In fact, you can't. The Catholic Church cannot invent something new. Otherwise, it has falsified itself. If it is teaching something that is dogmatically innovative, it is a false church. If it is teaching something that has deviated from the true apostolic deposit of faith, then it is a false church, and we shouldn't be a part of it. But the Catholic Church has a strong 2000-year track record and has maintained orthodoxy in many ways that other churches have not maintained it. Specifically, I mean, I think it's very easy to point out the sexual ethics in the Catholic Church is actually, it's very strong. We don't permit the use of contraception. We don't permit divorce and remarriage, just like some of the other churches. And the church has been the bastion of orthodoxy for 2,000 years. There are many times where the pope was the, was almost the last man standing in his, in the orthodox faith and he held it down. The reason that we have icons that the Eastern Orthodox love so much, that we all love so much.

>> Yeah. >> The reason why we have them is because the pope held it down >> in during the iconoclast period when the other patriarchates fell. They, they bent the knee to the emperor. They bent the knee to the Muslim forces and they started smashing icons. But the pope held it down.

>> Eastern patriarchs. Right? >> Eastern patriarchs. But to be fair, the, it's not to say the entire East was heretical. >> You know, we have St. John of Damascus. We have St. Theodore the Studite. They vehemently opposed and, you know, uh, the iconoclasm and they, they strongly defended the Orthodox faith. They strongly defended the, um, theological justification for having icons. And of course, the pope, he held it down. Um, if you, one of my favorite, um, scenes or episodes in church history is St. Maximus the Confessor, who is an Eastern monk. He allies himself to Pope St. Martin to defend orthodoxy against the Monothelites. This is in the 7th century. They both suffered greatly for it. The pope was exiled and he died in exile. And St. Maximus, a confessor, he's called the confessor because they cut off his tongue and they cut off his right hand. So they defended orthodoxy with literally like their lives while everyone else fell into heresy because they were bending the knee to the emperor. The, the pope held it down. And many times, if you read the, the church fathers and the councils, they understand the pope and the, and the, holy Roman see, the apostolic see as being indefectible. And they recognize this in the, in the, in the early church. St. Maximus the Confessor, he actually has this, um, beautiful, I don't know what you would call it, just this, this writing about the pope saying, "Look to the Holy Roman Church. It is like a sun with unfailing light." You know, he actually goes in extenders of the papacy. Um, but that, that was one of the things that stood out to me is that he looks at the, the, the church of Rome as a sun of unfailing light. He understands it to be a bastion of orthodoxy and that's why he allied himself during a time of crisis. He allied him, he allied himself with the pope and they both held it down. They were like Vegeta and Goku fighting off the, the enemies and, you know, they, they did their thing, you know, but they, they suffered. It came at a, came at a cost.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. One of the things that I'm, I'm thinking about lately is how, um, in the weeds we all are in on the internet. We're all in the weeds about the papacy or about the Marian dogmas or purgatory or atonement. And I, I just like, I'm trying to think about which is the form of Christianity that you can know the least and still be a faithful follower of Christ. Because I don't think that Christ intended for all of us to be PhDs in theology. I don't think like what we're doing on the internet talking about like these are interesting topics and I love talking about this stuff and I can do it all day, but I don't think that Christ intended for us to hinge our faith on how well we can understand these truths of the faith >> because at, at a certain point >> and I'm not, I'm not accusing anybody of this, certainly not you, but at a certain point, I know myself have have fallen into this, we can treat our level of understanding as if that is the level of truth of a claim. So if I can't understand this claim, that means it's not true. But >> I keep coming back to this, but like the first century followers of Christ, they could not have possibly understood at that time, you know, transubstantiation or why was this guy telling us to eat his flesh and drink his blood? Why was he supposedly violating the Sabbath? Uh, why was he claiming to be one with the Father? Like the followers of Christ, they knew he was the Messiah because of the signs he was doing, because of the teachings that he was teaching them that were unlike anything they had heard before. But they weren't like basing this based on how well they can understand all of these teachings and how well they can defend all of these teachings.

>> Even the apostles in John chapter 6, when everybody's leaving Jesus because he's telling them to eat his flesh and he sounds like a crazy person and he tells the apostles, "Are you going to leave me, too?" They don't say, "No, Jesus, we're going to stay because we fully understand what you're teaching right now." They didn't understand it either, but they say, "To whom else can we go? You have the words of eternal life." And so, I don't know, the point I'm trying to make, I guess, that we've kind of in all of these online debates, we've kind of lost the plot, uh, sometimes. And I don't think that, you know, I just see these conversations where it's like, well, what about Pope Honorius and what about this pope that did this thing and what >> and I'm like, I don't think I, I feel like there should be a simplicity to the faith that I don't have to study history and I don't have to become >> uh, >> Right. >> a theology major to properly choose the correct, uh, Christian tradition. And then even going into Protestantism, we'll leave the Orthodox alone for a second. I don't, I don't think that Jesus Christ is going to send somebody to hell because they misunderstand soteriology and claim, maybe I did something to contribute to my salvation. Maybe they're just genuinely misunderstanding things. I don't think, you know, there are some Protestants who would say if you attribute anything of your own works to your salvation, you're going to go to hell. What if someone's just like genuinely misunderstanding things, man? Um, and obviously we have a different understanding of soteriology anyways, >> but what I'm trying to get at is like, I don't think we need to be PhDs in in this stuff to to get to heaven or to have a relationship with Christ. And I wonder if we kind of >> even hurt our own relationship with Christ at times because of all of these arguments we get in the weeds in in the internet, >> Right? >> Yeah. It can detract from our faith. And that's precisely why I still encourage people to go visit the Orthodox Church. You know, I have found in my research that the Catholic Church is the one true church, but I would never discourage somebody to go experience God at the Orthodox Church. And our church has affirmed that they have a true presence, you know, um, a true Eucharist, all of that good stuff. So, we can affirm that they have truth, goodness, and beauty. But obviously, we believe as Catholics that we have the fullness of the faith contained in our tradition. But people are, to your point, not everyone's concerned with church history. There's people that just want to live their faith. They want to have a deep relationship with our Lord and Savior. They want to partake of the holy mysteries. They want to go to confession. They want to do deep prayer. They want to fast. They want to just get closer to God. They want to read the scriptures. And I think a lot of the times we can make an idol out of our knowledge or our search for truth that it's taken away from what all of this is actually for. It's for us to get closer to God. And you, you take a look at like, you know, if you're too caught up in trying to figure out the intricacies of some theological doctrine or, you know, the Filioque, or, you know, some historical event, sometimes you can end up missing the forest for the trees. And I think we need to take a step back from at that moment, we need to take a step back and be like, you know, as you, you have to have the right priorities. Make sure your spiritual life is in order. Make sure you're you're doing your daily prayers. Make sure that you're doing what you're supposed to do as a Christian first and foremost before any of the other stuff even tries to get into your purview. You know, you and I, or at least I, I don't know. I know you've taken a step back from apologetics, but people online, >> that's what they do, right? They want to get into apologetics and talk about the faith. So they spend a lot of time learning, but that shouldn't be the expectation for the average person. You know, know enough just to give a defense for your faith like it says in the scriptures, but live the faith. The, the faith is meant to be lived. It's meant to be experienced. It's not about knowing that Christ is God because the demons know that. >> It's about living in relationship with him. Real side note, I mean, real funny side note, real quick, is, uh, you know, I never really get sleep paralysis anymore. Or I used to get sleep paralysis a lot when I was, uh, younger and I would look up online if anybody else experienced sleep paralysis and other people would talk about sleep paralysis as feeling like there was somebody sitting on their chest and that was really never my experience of sleep paralysis. I would just feel paralyzed. But not that long ago, I had sleep paralysis and I felt like there was something on my chest and I was like, cuz, you know, you're conscious. I don't know if you ever had sleep paralysis, but you're conscious during the sleep paralysis. And I was like, I was like, "Oh, there's probably a demon. Like there's a demon sitting on my chest." And so I was like, "Let me just say a prayer real quick." And I, I just tried to scramble up a prayer. And I said, "Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus Christ is Lord." Or "Jesus Christ is my God." Or something like that. And they didn't do anything. And I said a prayer to the Holy Theotokos after. And then eventually I got out of the sleep paralysis. But then I thought about it after. I'm like, why didn't that, that really do anything? And it didn't do anything because they affirmed that they know that Jesus Christ is God. So all you're doing is affirming something that they know, but you didn't say anything that actually invoked the authority of Christ, you know. So >> that >> that's good. >> You know, to get to my point, you know, think about it's not so much about knowing, but it's about doing. It's about living. It's about experiencing the faith first and foremost. In fact, that's the most important. Like if you go this life without knowing all these theological dogmas, you're probably better off to be honest. If it, if it's detracting from your faith, you're probably better off.

>> Yeah, man. That's so good. Um, yeah. And I just think that, like, I think about the level, kind of the burden that's put on the average believer with different, uh, you know, faith systems. So, for example, with the system of Sola Scriptura, that is an affirmation, obviously, that the scriptures are infallible, they're inherent, which we all affirm. >> But if we can only properly understand the Christian faith from the scriptures alone, and we are relying on, you know, this, people are going to say I'm straw-manning it, but at some level, we're relying on our, our interpretation of those scriptures. We can inform that interpretation with the church fathers, but people would say that those church fathers aren't infallible either. Um, >> Right. >> But even the translation of the scriptures that you're reading isn't infallible. It was translated by somebody, you know, whether you're reading the King James version or the English Standard Version or whatever. Those translations aren't infallible. And so, do you have to learn the original Greek to get to the original meaning of the scriptures, the original infallible meaning of the scriptures? Do you have to find the manuscript that Matthew handwrote? >> Uh, I don't think that that's what Jesus had in mind. I think that the authority structure that the Catholic Church presents >> actually makes the most sense and really lifts the burden off of the average believer so that we don't have to know all of these things that we can know because it's interesting. That's why I started this channel. I love these conversations. I was just debating with some Protestant friends last night. I love this stuff. Uh, but I don't think that the, the burden on the average believer is supposed to be that high. I think it's supposed to be like, hey, here's a faith. Here's the church that's existed since 33 AD, since Jesus Christ founded it on Peter. Uh, here's the authority structure. Here's, you know, the people you're supposed to submit to. Um, here's the sacraments that, you know, you should try to understand them, but even if you don't understand them, as long as you approach them with faith and submission, you're receiving the graces of those sacraments. Um, I just think that makes a lot of sense and it kind of is like a breath. You can kind of breathe a little bit easier while knowing like, I don't have to have this all figured out. I can just practice the faith and just be a normal, just be an NPC, an NPC Catholic, and that's actually probably better than seeking out knowledge for the sake of pride or something like that. >> Right? Like the grandmas of Mexico, you know, my family's from Mexico. >> They live a very simple life. I just came back from Egypt and we visited a place called Garbage City. I didn't know that's what it was called. Somebody told me about Garbage City and I was like, that sounds kind of rude. >> The official name? Or >> I don't know if I think it's just probably like the colloquial name, like, but >> as soon as we were driving up, I saw why it was called Garbage City. It's a whole city filled with garbage. It's a Christian city. >> There's, I don't know how many people living in this city. They're all extremely poor. They go through the garbage in order to make a living. They go through the garbage and they sort through it. Recycles metals, plastics, and they sort them out and that's how they make their living. >> But, you know, as soon as I opened the van to get out, I, I started gagging because I was like, "Oh my gosh, people live like this." Like, it, it literally smelled like a dumpster. Like, you're in a dumpster. But the point I'm trying to make is we were with some Coptic priests and they wanted that to be part of our trip and it's part of a documentary that's going to be put out soon and they wanted to make it a point for us to visit the impoverished side of Egypt. I mean, a lot of Egypt, to be honest, is very impoverished, but this is probably one of the most impoverished areas. And when we got to visit with these families, with these Christian families, man, they, they have just the most simple faith. They don't have anything. Like they don't have anything to their name. Their, their apartment is is literally built on freaking garbage and their roof is collapsing. They, they, they're extremely dirt. Everything's dirty. Smells like garbage everywhere. Everyone's super poor, but they'll have a picture of Jesus and they'll have, you know, a picture of a Coptic saint or Mother Mary. And that's the faith. You know, these people aren't concerned about transubstantiation or, uh, Christ, does he have one nature, two natures? You know, Monophysitism, Neophysitism, the intricacies of, you know, Christology. They don't care about any of that stuff. They are wholly dedicated to living the faith. And they have a church. They have a big church. It's a big, it's famous actually. It's like, it's called, it's like a cave church. And that's what, that's what they do. They, they live the faith. And that's what it is. It's a simple faith. And almost, you know, I, I don't mean to put the scriptures in opposition to the Eucharist, but it's almost, if you had to pick one, it has to be the Eucharist because you're receiving all of God in the Eucharist. You're, you're getting to be in the presence of God and share, you know, in this intimate communion with him. That's probably the most important thing. In fact, that is the most important thing. It's the most important thing that we'll do. So receiving God's grace and I'm not putting them against each other. Obviously, do both. Read the scriptures. But, but if you know, the most important thing is that you're living the faith and that you're going to be in communion and you're spending time with our Lord. You know, whether it's private prayer at home, whether it's prayer at the church, that's what matters first and foremost. And yeah, I mean, obviously if you can do both, but it's, uh, it's a simple faith and that's really how we should live it.

>> Yeah. It's like most people for most of history have been illiterate. And so their only encounter with the scriptures would be in the Mass and then they would consume the Eucharist. And they weren't like going home and trying to figure out what Revelation meant about the end times or something. They were just like, >> "Right. >> Yeah. I'm just going to pray my Rosary or pray the Chaplet or whatever." And that's, that's basically that's the faith. Like you don't have to do all this. So, I, I just bring that up because it's like people watching this are probably going to be all like in a rage in the comments debating about the papacy and I'm just like >> Just relax, guys. Just >> Yeah. >> So, okay. So, we're wrong. Okay. What, what's the reaction been so far since you've announced this? I know you posted a video. I think it was yesterday or the day before.

>> Yeah, you know, I'm actually very disappointed. I thought that I was going to get more hate than I did. I was, I was actually, I was ready for it. I was like, I, I want to see what, I want to see what happens. But no, it's, it's been actually overwhelmingly positive. I've been getting messages and even Eastern Orthodox priests have been reaching out to me and just saying, you know, um, they love me and they support me. So, >> it's, uh, it's been, it's been cool. It's been, it's been good. And now I'm just making my rounds just kind of sharing my story and, you know, why I decided to do this and where I'm looking forward to now. You know, I'm starting this new chapter in, um, being more, uh, intentional with my Catholic faith and making more Catholic-focused content. So, that's the direction that I'm going in now. And I'm probably going to start a new channel. I don't have it ready yet, so that's why I don't really have a, a plug for it right now, but right now I'm just doing everything through Roots of Faith podcast and Roots of Orthodoxy. Just going to let it sit there. Uh, I haven't really decided what I want to do with it, but obviously if anybody wants to be featured on it, I'm still going to be doing interviews and I have some interviews already lined up, so I'm going to finish those for sure and just keep that going. But yeah, I mean, but my main focus is going to be more on making Catholic content and just making cool content. It doesn't have to be like apologetic stuff. There's so many things I want to talk about. Like I just got back from Egypt and we've got to visit the Church of Our Lady of Zeitoun where Our Lady appeared over this church in 1968 and over a million people saw her over the span of three years. Like that's really cool and I feel like a lot of people don't know about it. Like >> I just want to be able to talk about stuff that I feel like a lot of people aren't as aware of. And I, I know you've done some stuff on Our Lady of Guadalupe. Like I really want to do some stuff like that too. Want to do some stuff on Our Lady of Fatima and just do like fun content, you know, fun content that I'm interested in >> and just see where it takes me, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I, I also did a video on Our Lady of Lourdes talking with Father Robert Spitzer about all of the medical documentation behind that and all the healings that have happened. It's, it's so crazy. It's awesome.

>> Yeah. >> How does your wife feel now that you've kind of settled this question? She must be relieved.

>> Yeah, she's, she's been supportive throughout the way. So, I mean, she's just kind of like, "All right, >> she's like, you know, it's about time, you know." So, yeah. I mean, I've, I've kind of been doing this for almost three years, so it kind of makes sense that >> I, you know, I get off the fence and I put my flag in the ground and say, "You know what? This is what I believe."

>> Nice. Nice. Yeah. And it's kind of crazy to think that just a few years ago, you were like, "Yeah, I'm Catholic, but I don't really practice." And now you've gone through all of this, and it's probably just strengthened your faith. The more we've explored orthodoxy and >> and other expressions of Christianity. Um, I have a lot of friends and

I'm I'm sure you do too. Who are like, they call them, they're like, "Yeah, I'm Catholic," but they don't like practice the faith. And I've struggled a lot with like, how do you get people to realize that there's so much more to being Catholic than just, "I was baptized as a baby and and maybe I'll say a confession on my deathbed or something." Like, how do you, I don't know, something worked with you, but like, what's your advice to try to get people out of that mindset of kind of being apathetic about their faith?

Well, at least for me, it was to see that there was actually more depth to our faith than I had originally expected. You know, I I didn't really think because I had kind of been exposed a little bit to Protestantism and obviously I had my bad experience with that Protestant pastor, but I thought the faith was so shallow. I didn't really think that there existed a depth to it. But then when you really get into the faith, you're like, "Wow, I didn't know the Bible says this, or I didn't know the Bible has psalms." Like, how many people know that that that we have a psalter? Like, we have, you know, really cool ways to incorporate ourselves in our faith. Like, there's prayers, there's um, there's there's really cool liturgies. There's like, I just recently, you know, started doing Eucharistic adoration just the other day. Like I have never done that before. I just randomly stumbled into the Eucharistic Adoration Chapel after um, I did a confession at a at a Latin Rite church. I I normally go to the Eastern Rite church, but I was doing a confession at a Latin Rite church and I just stumbled my way into the adoration chapel and I'm like, "I've heard of this, but I've never really done this," and I thought that was interesting. So our faith has so much to offer. We just got to show people that it's there. And you know, prayer, that the prayers can actually go deeper than than you think. Um, there there's so many prayers from our from the Church Fathers and there are so many prayers from the scriptures themselves. The psalter is David praying, but it's in the scriptures because God wants us to pray them. God, this is how God wants us to pray to him and and he's showing us the disposition that we should have when we're engaging in in in communication with him in prayer. Um, so yeah, I mean, I I if you know, show show people the beauty and the and the um, the tradition of the church. A lot of people just are not familiar. They don't know about like iconography or like, you know, they don't know about the the the hymns or how deep the faith really goes or the teachings of the faith. I think that's, you know, when somebody's dealing with something in the secular world and you're like, "Hey, do you know what, you know, you know what so and so Church Father said about that? Or do you know like, you know, you're you're having problems with your marriage, but do you know what St. John Chrysostom said about marriage?" You know, you can make a connection there that they would have never thought. Like, sometimes you think of the church people, no, they're just holy people, just it's just them and God, but no, these people lived real lives and so much of what they taught was pastoral so that they could teach people and they could teach their flock. You know, they're shepherds at the end of the day and they're taking care of Christ's flock. And so they've put together practical wisdom. The church in its infinite wisdom has given us so much. And we just have to find a way to show that to people, to the average person. And we just got to make it cool. We just got to make it fun. Uh, we got to, we I mean, we don't have to make it fun because it already is. It just is. We just have to show it to them. Yeah.

You know, we got to show them that there's more than than what they've experienced in the faith.

Yeah. I think a lot of people, whether they were raised Catholic or not, they kind of think they know what Christianity teaches. Like, "Yeah, Jesus died for your sins, so you try to be a good person and then you go to heaven."

But like,

Right.

And you got to take on all these rules. But if you look at even even if you just think of this from a secular perspective, if you look at the studies, people who live a religious life, people who live not like a consecrated religious life, but who live religiously, who go to mass, who pray regularly, they're actually much happier than people who don't.

And like that's kind of interesting because you think, "I'm supposed to be unhappy so that I can follow all these rules and then I get to go to heaven and be happy later." But actually, no. Like it actually makes you happier in this life as well because you're living in accordance with the original design that we were created for. And when you're living in accordance with your purpose, then you're much happier than when you're living in rejection of it because those things are at odds. And so there's like a deeper piece to it there. And and and then just the teachings of the faith, like you were saying, people think of it as like,

A lot.

Yeah.

No, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.

No, people people think of it as like, yeah. Well, no sex outside of marriage and don't don't touch yourself and like all these rules and that's the teachings of the faith. But actually, the teachings of the faith are, yeah, those things as well. But also, they go even deeper than those things. You're supposed to love the people around you in a self-sacrificial way so that you would be willing to do what Christ did for us for those people around you, even the people around you that hate you. And it's like that's such a crazy radical but also very beautiful teaching that actually reflects the nature of God because God is love. And Jesus Christ, as he's dying for us, as people are spitting on him and pulling his beard out and punching him and mocking him, he still loves those people that are doing that to him and asks God to forgive them. And that we're supposed to treat other people that exact same way that he's exemplified for us. And there's just all these deeper teachings of the faith that are so beautiful that I think get lost on people because we think we know it and therefore we don't actually hear what it actually has to say. So I don't know what my point is, but go ahead.

Yeah. Well, no. I think um, part of the part of the problem is that some people just simply don't know their faith enough. You know, we talked about, you know, maybe knowing a little too much or getting too hungry for the pursuit of knowledge, but there is a there is um, there is something to be said if if you don't know enough. You know, a lot of people don't know that, you know, I I was actually very, you know, surprised to find this out that salvation is union with God. I didn't know exactly what that meant. I didn't know that we're called to be deified or that we're called to be sanctified and made holy and spend eternity with God in that way. I thought it was more so like, you go to heaven and you just have fun or you just you're just happy. But it's no, it's you're entering in the most incredible mystery of salvation where you are being deified. God is sharing with us. You know, we become partakers of the divine nature as it says in the scriptures. Obviously, we don't become exactly like him. We don't become like him in his essence, but he's sharing with us his divinity. And I didn't know that. I didn't know that we, you know, St. Athanasius said that God became man so that man might become like God. I didn't know that that was the Christian teaching.

So when I figured that out, I was like, "That's very cool. That's very interesting." So I think part of it, too, is just showing people that, you know, these misconceptions that they might have.

Um, but I did I did want to bring this up. You know, the cool thing about our Orthodox brothers and sisters, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, is that they actually can teach us a lot about how to live the faith. You know, you take for example, the 21 Coptic martyrs of Libya. You know, when they were abducted, they were kidnapped by ISIS, you know, a terrorist organization. They were just working, just trying to provide for their families in Libya and they get taken and they get kidnapped and they're told to renounce their faith in Christ and they deny that. You know, I'm a father, you're a father. How appealing is that that all we have to do is just say, you know what, I don't believe in Christ. I'm sorry. And I can get to I get to go home and see my wife and kids and I get to be home that night or I get to, you know, live to see another day. How easy it would have been to do that. But these men said no. And they said no time and time again. And it led to their martyrdom. They ended up being killed, you know, beheaded. And one of them in particular, his name was Matthew. And he was from Ghana. He didn't belong with these other Christians. And when he was asked, "What do you believe?" He looked at them and he saw their witness. He saw just how strong and faithful they were to God. He said, "Their God is my God." And he joined them in martyrdom. And he was granted, you know, the ranks of sainthood because of that. And you know, I was talking to my sister the other day, cuz she's kind of been leaning kind of Protestant, and I was telling her this and like, cuz I think this is an incredible story, and she's like, "Wow, the Catholic Church just makes anybody a saint." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "This this is scriptural." And then I I showed I showed her uh recently in Matthew. It says um, let me let me pull it up because I'm going to butcher it. It said, "Blessed are you that are persecuted for righteousness sake. Uh, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." I'll just paraphrase it, I think. Um, but yeah, those that are persecuted for righteousness sake, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So it makes sense that they were, you know, granted entry into heaven to be unified with God because they didn't deny Jesus. They didn't deny him. So that there's so much that that we can learn from that. I mean, how many of us would be willing to do that? And that witness is just so super powerful. And I got to see it, you know, being out there in Egypt. Those men weren't those men weren't extraordinary. They were just like everybody else in Egypt. They weren't unique. They were just like everybody else. So, I'm like, "Wow, you know, we we have a lot of work to do, or at least I do." It was a It was a stark like uh wakeup call for me. I was like, "I have a lot of work to do in my in my life." You know, I make content for the faith, but am I can I say that I could do what they did? I don't know. I really don't know if I could. So because I can't answer that, I know that I have a lot of work to do in my in my heart. Um, but I'm I'm learning from them. I'm I I love learning from our Eastern Orthodox, from our Oriental Orthodox and Catholics, too. There's so many great Catholics, even Protestants, too. I learned a lot from Protestants as well. So many Protestants put us to shame in many ways.

So always have that disposition of humility. Not that you're superior because you're Catholic and you have it all figured out, but you can learn from other people and their their walks with Christ.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And and the like the example of martyrdom is so beautiful. And then even deeper than that is like when somebody is a martyr and not only are they willing to die for their faith, but they're willing to look at their murderer and look at them with love and and say even thank you. I've heard stories of martyrs like thanking their killers and and just like expressing nothing but love for them. Like that is

That's that's what happened with with in this case when these men were killed, the wives were interviewed after.

And that's what they said. They said, "We forgive you."

You know, "We hope that you come to Christ." And

And that is Christianity. That is Christianity.

That is that is Christianity. Amen. Yeah. But God is so merciful because when we were in Egypt and we were at the shrine of the 21 Coptic martyrs,

it just so happens that the wives of the martyrs were there.

So we got to speak with them.

We got to talk to them. We got to see them. And they're still so filled with joy. It it you're literally like, these people are crazy. Like

they're living the faith in the craziest, most radical way. We also got to meet another martyr, another martyr's wife at another church where her husband died in a church bombing. He tried to stop a a terrorist from u going into the cuz in the Coptic church, the men and the women are separated.

So the the terrorist, he ran through the women's side and the security guard, he like barely caught up to him in time and like yanked his like backpack or like yanked his shirt back and he exploded right there. 29 people died. 28 women, including. And then the security guard was the only male.

And we we got to speak to the wife of the of of that man and she was so full of joy.

Wow.

Is unbelievable. She was so full of joy knowing that her husband is in heaven and that he's interceding for her. And that's exactly what the other wives said too. Whenever they have a problem, something's going on at home or maybe they're having issues, they'll go in prayer and they'll go to the shrine and, you know, they'll they'll talk to their husband and they said, "Anytime we come with a problem, it is solved. It it is solved. Every time they come to prayer and they're interceding." And I'm just like, "I'm blown away. Like, I'm not even worthy to be out here. Take me back to United States, you know, I'm not even worth it." It's like, it's insane, man. That it's insane. We we have so much to learn from them. We really do.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And then because to to realize like that is that is the Christian faith perfectly lived out is dying for your faith, loving those who kill you and the people who killed your loved ones for the faith. You actually love the killers of of your and you forgive them.

Yeah. And people think of, I think especially in in the West, people think of Christianity as like,

some rich pastor who makes a bunch of money and sells a book every other month and whatever. And then so people get a distaste for Christianity because of, you know, genuinely bad examples. But if you look at the good examples of Christianity, saints like those martyrs, like the many Catholic saints we have, and you look at their lives, even somebody who's secular has to realize like, there is some really deep beauty and goodness to this that that even if you don't want to attribute something spiritual to it, you have to at least acknowledge like, this is something to aspire to on just a p even just a practical basis. But obviously, uh, very difficult to aspire to that without the help of the Holy Spirit, which is where the church and the sacraments come in. But um, yeah, I think that's that's an important thing is like presenting that this is the Christian faith, not the guy you see on TV, not the people who, you know, judged you and pushed you out of your local church. The Christian faith is like dying, loving your killers, forgiving those who killed your loved ones for the faith. And you know, Jesus even says that the two greatest commandments of the faith are love your neighbor and love God. Love is the greatest commandment.

And um,

Right.

that gets lost on so many people in the West because of bad examples. But I think examples like the martyrs that you're you're talking about kind of remind us of that, that that is what the faith is.

Yeah. To your point, when I walked into the Eastern Orthodox Church for the first time, they have a beautiful icon of Christ and he's holding open the Bible. Um, or I don't know if it's the Bible or if he's holding stone tablets. I don't remember exactly, but it says it's it's quoting from John. It says, "A new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you." And like that just blew me away. Um, that that's the that's the love that you're talking about. That radical love. It's not just ordinary love. It's radical love. And that's what God is calling us to do. And that that's actually what really drew me to Christianity as a as a faith is that anybody is called to sainthood. Anybody and everybody is called to sainthood. You know, it doesn't matter if you're rich or you're poor. You have examples in the scriptures of people like John the Baptist. You know, we respect everybody. Uh, it doesn't matter what their background is. You know, you have John the Baptist who didn't have anything. He didn't um own anything. He didn't have material riches. But who was more faithful than him to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Who was more? He stood on truth and he was killed for it. He lived his life in the wilderness just preaching repentance. He was baptizing people. He was eating locusts and wild honey. He was, you know, making the path straight for the one who was to come after him, which is the Messiah, as we read in in the Gospel of Matthew. But, you know, that's what's cool about, you know, when you're coming from the secular world, from the business world. Like, for a while, I wanted to be successful in the business world. I was trying to do like a marketing agency and I I really wanted a cool car. Like, I dreamt of having the Lamborghini and all this really cool stuff. But in the business world, it's like, smash everybody. Smash your enemies. Smash your competitors. Oh, this person doesn't have the nicest watch. You're better than him because you have better clothes. You're better than him because, you know, you got to flex on everybody. Flex on him how much money you have. Flex on him. Flex on them like what watch you're wearing, you know, what shoes you got, what car you're driving, what job you have, all the cool stuff you get to do. That's not Christianity. Like Christianity is like, "No, that homeless guy over there, like God loves that person. God died for that person that is right there laying on the street. God literally died for him. And he is not more important than you."

Mhm.

You've accomplished so much being a successful business owner, whatever, you know, but that homeless person that's lying on the ground, that person in God's eyes is not inferior to you. God loves them like how you love your son.

And his love is greater than our love. So how much more is he loving that person that's literally lying hungry, sick, you know, doesn't have anything. God is looking at that person like, "This is my son." Like, why isn't anybody helping him? Because that's how I would feel if I saw that my son was out there and he needed help or if he was, you know, struggling, I'd be like, you know, somebody please help my son. That's how I would look at it. So, and my my love is limited because, you know, I'm imperfect and I'm a fallible human being, but God, he looks at us and he he loves us with such depth and with such, we we can't even begin to explain. But the gospel of Luke tells us, you know, the father in the prodigal son, probably my favorite story, the father sees the son from a distance. And when he sees him, the the father, it in Jewish culture, it it would actually be like indignant for him to to run to him. But he doesn't care. He runs to his son. He sees him from the horizon and he runs to him. And that's what God does to us. When we turn to God, God is running to us. So, we give a little bit to God and God gives us everything. So, it's um, this faith is beautiful, man. I What more could I say, man? Like, it's it's uh, it's been a beautiful like three three years. Three years being on this Christian path and I couldn't be more grateful.

That's amazing. You got me tearing up, man.

I know. I almost teared it, too. I was like, I already did that once on camera and everyone made fun of me for it. So,

that's all right. Well, I think that's a great place to leave this conversation. I don't think we're going to get any better than that. So, um, where where can people find you? You said a little bit about what your plans are going forward, but how can people support the next chapter of Roots of Faith?

So, I'm on Instagram at RootsofFaithPodcast. I'm on Instagram at RootsOfOrthodoxy. I'm on YouTube at RootsOfOrthodoxy. YouTube at RootsFaithPodcast. I have a TikTok, RootsOfOrthodoxy. But yeah, I mean, I think my main thing is Roots of Faith podcast right now. And then I'll probably make an announcement soon on another channel that I'll start where I can do that Catholic focused content. Roots of Faith podcast is just a podcast where we have conversations. I've had you on, you know, I've had um Ish on it. I've had, you know, Orthodox, Catholics, you name it. And then Roots of Orthodoxy is exclusively the mission of showcasing Orthodoxy to a Western audience. So that's more just for Eastern Orthodoxy. But yeah, that that that's what I'm up to. and and you know, I'm excited for this new chapter and I I really appreciate you having me on, man. It was it was a blast.

Dude, I appreciate you coming on and I'm really excited to see what you do next. And next time you're out in California, we'll have to do something together on your new channel if if you'll have me.

Of course. Of course. Let's do it. You don't even have to ask, man.

Just pull up. Don't even Don't even ask me. Say, "This is what we're doing."

Yeah. Right on. I'll do that.

All right. Thanks, man. Thanks everybody for watching. Um, get off your phone, go do something else, go hug your family, and uh, we'll see you in the next one. God bless. God bless. Thank you.