Trauma Expert: How to Rebuild Self-Identity After Years of Shame - Tim Fletcher

Little T trauma is something good that should have happened to you but didn't. It's neglect. Your needs weren't met. You weren't accepted. And over 80% of people have it.

I have to learn to please mom and dad so they'll take care of me. So, I will be whatever they want me to be. I'll take care of their emotions. I'll take care of their needs. I'll suppress my needs and sacrifice.

But what's happened underneath? I don't think I'm worth loving. I think I have to earn my love. And I think everybody that gets to know me will reject me. So, I have to hide. I have to wear masks. I can't be authentic.

What happens in the child is this massive fear of abandonment that if people get to know me, they're going to eventually see the real me and abandon me. So, now I either have to control you, be super needy, test you all the time, and so that sets up relationships to fail. So, you create the very thing you're trying to avoid.

The whole childhood roles has been broken down into four kind of main roles. The hero child usually is the one that gets validated quickly for being responsible, for conforming to the rules. Number two is the comedian. Their response is to get everybody to like them. Always be light and funny. Number three is the invisible child or the lost child. They're the one that says, "I'm going to become super small so that I'm never a burden." The fourth one, the scapegoat or the problem child. They're the only one that refuses to go into denial.

Most people with complex trauma don't know who they really are because they've been wearing masks for so long that they don't even know their identity.

>> So, how do you go back to that authentic self?

Hi everyone and welcome back to today's episode. Super excited to introduce today's guest, Tim Fletcher. Tim is a researcher and counselor with over 30 years of experience specializing in the field of addiction and complex trauma recovery. He's also has a YouTube channel with over 400,000 subscribers, which is how I discovered him. Tim, thank you so much for taking the time and being here today.

>> My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

>> Yeah, thank you so much. And um I want to start by asking you what is complex trauma and what are the effects that you know it has on us as adults?

Well, that's uh such an important question, but the answer is quite a big answer, Francesca. So, uh let me just kind of lead into it this way. I think where a lot of people get hung up is with the word trauma. and they still are using kind of the old definition, the original definition of trauma, which was came out of kind of the war stuff, PTSD, and and it really trauma got defined as what we now call big T trauma, some horrific event that's not >> normal. >> Um, that happened to a person that was just overwhelming and so they had to go into fight or flight or freeze. So there definitely is an element of trauma that is big T trauma, but what we've come to realize is that the majority of trauma is actually what we now call little T trauma. And over 80% of people have it. And so if you think of big T trauma, it's something terrible happening to you. Little T trauma is something good good that should have happened to you but didn't. So, it's invisible trauma. It's neglect. It's something your needs weren't met. You weren't able to connect. You weren't accepted. You weren't given healthy validation. You were constantly criticized. Parents weren't emotionally available. So, your needs weren't met. So, it's not like anything bad happened to you. It's that good that should have happened to you didn't.

>> And that's what makes it kind of invisible. But if you think of a child where that either so complex trauma is it's based out of math where you have simple ma simple numbers and complex numbers. So you we have one-time events called simple trauma ongoing events or ongoing dangers called complex. So complex trauma ongoing danger can be made up of big T and little T trauma. For most kids, it's a blend, but the majority is usually little T trauma. So, if you picture a child, what happens to them when they're neglected or abused? So, big T or little T trauma in an ongoing way. And or they pick up that mom's not safe, dad's not safe. Their guts saying dad's anger makes it so I can't connect with him. Mom's just emotionally withdrawn. I can't connect with her. This isn't a safe place. Is normally when you're in danger, you go to fight or flight. But what happens with a child is I'm too little to fight and I'm too little to run away. So they go into two other Fs. They either go to freeze, which is I can't escape to an external world, so I'm going to go into an internal world where I feel safe. So I'll go into staying busy all the time or a fantasy world. all of those different things just >> where I feel safe. >> But the problem with a little child is I still need mom and dad to meet my needs because I'm not big enough to meet my needs. So they have to go to the fourth fawn. I have to learn to please mom and dad so they'll take care of me. So I will be whatever they want me to be. I'll take care of their emotions. I'll take care of their needs. I'll suppress my needs and sacrifice. Then hopefully I'll take care they'll take care of me. So those are adaptations that a child is making. But if you think of a child that adapts by fawning. So they learn to be a hero. They fix everybody else's problems. They never say no. They're super responsible. They give, give, give. They're high performing. They work hard. They get validated for that. They This is an amazing person. They go, "You don't have any problems. You are the healthiest persons I have ever seen." But what's happened underneath? I don't think I'm worth loving. I think I have to earn my love. And I think everybody that gets to know me will reject me. So I have to hide. I have to wear masks. I can't be authentic. I then have to learn to not trust people because they always let you down. I have to learn how to manipulate people to get my needs or be in control cuz I can't just come out and ask people. So you got two kind of things going on inside of them that 30 years later they go to get into an intimate relationship and they go why am I struggling so much?

>> The things that everybody validated me for now are causing my relationships to break down. And the things that I had to do to survive like lying and not trusting and manipulating are messing up my relationships and keeping them from being healthy. So to me, one of the sad parts of complex trauma is the adaptations a child has to do to survive that worked in helping them survive. There's a delayed negative effect of 20, 30, 40 years where all of a sudden you realize that adaptation that I thought was good is actually bad. It's a male adaptation and it's preventing me from healthy relationships and a healthy life. But because I don't realize that till 30 years later, I don't automatically go back to, I wonder if there's something in my childhood that's causing this. I just go, "Oh, I married a jerk." Or, "Oh, my job's just too stressful. That's the problem." And so, we don't naturally look to complex trauma stuff in childhood as the root issue. when there's problems 30 years later. And so that's why for a lot of people, they go to doctors and psychiatrists to get band-aids on symptoms, but they don't really ever get to understanding what took place in my core when I was 5 years old when all of that stuff was happening.

>> Absolutely. And when you mentioned escaping into fantasy for instance, I'm curious why would that manifest like as an adult?

>> Um I think it can go in a whole bunch of different ways. So another way to just broaden it a little bit. So what is happening when a child escapes inward? So they go to freeze response is there's really a dissociation taking place from the present. So to them the most dangerous place to be is in the present. The safest place to be is anywhere but present in the present. So they are always escaping being present in the present. So they can do that through being busy all the time. constantly organizing, constantly working, constantly playing video games, watching TV, anything that keeps them distracted from being in the present. But they're also not present to themsself because they think they're not worth loving. They're must be a pretty bad person. So, they're kind of escaping their own thoughts and feelings. So, one of the greatest punishments for a person with complex trauma is to be in a quiet room all alone by themselves with nothing to do because then they'd have to live in their own skin, which to them is torture. Um, so that's one form of dissociation. But then more extreme forms is people can actually kind of like o out of body experiences where they go they're being sexually abused and they can be on the ceiling looking down as if it's happening to somebody else or they can be on the a beach in the Mediterranean and just be totally out of their body. So they're not present in the present. Um but then some escape into a fantasy world. So they love TV and and books. So they they love good things that use their creativity and their imagination. But now they create this world that's safe where everybody loves each other where they are loved and respected and that's where they start to go to because they watch enough TV maybe this can happen in real life. So they start to believe their fantasies are possible realities for them and that gives them hope. So they fall in love. What happens? It creates fantasy feelings. They go to fantasy world. They hope Mr. Night and shining armor is going to make me totally happy and we're going to have a happy and they chase that fantasy. And so fantasy or dissociation can happen in all aspects of life. But the fantasy part often happens when they're facing a new relationship, a new job, a new move. Is your brain goes to let's imagine perfect outcome. That gets rid of the fear. That gets rid of the unknown. That gives us excitement. Um but it's often very unrealistic. It's not based on reality. It's based on a bunch of lies and so it always lets them down.

>> Very interesting. And you talked about some signs that complex trauma has on us as adults. And I saw one video of yours. You were talking about how you can even see it in someone's eyes. Can you tell me some what are some signs that you can immediately see in someone?

>> Well, we've over my years of kind of working with clients and talking to them and researching this, we've come up with 90 different ways complex trauma affects your your brain, your body, your emotions, your immune system, your relationships, how you cope. It it affects every area of life. all of those maladdaptations. Um, so if you just think of the child that is neglected or abused and they conclude it must be my fault. So they begin to develop and a core belief that I'm not good enough. So we call that shame and that's really one of the core characteristics of complex trauma. So a child in a healthy home that's loved unconditionally and accepted, they go, I have value. I am lovable. It's a very positive self-identity. Complex trauma where you're neglected and abused, you develop a negative selfidentity. Anybody that gets to know me authentically is going to reject me. I can't connect with anybody being authentic. I have to be somebody else. Um I'm not lovable. I have to earn love. So all of those messages begin to affect the core. So if you meet somebody with deep shame, often you look into their eyes right away and they can't maintain eye contact. There there's a you can see the shame in their eyes. So that's that's that piece. And then for many people, what happens if you look at complex trauma is the child is adapting to try to get love, to try to get their needs met. So they're they're being this hero. They're being a perfect child, never saying no. But then they it starts to spread. So they begin to go, in order for mom and dad to be happy with me, I have to have only one emotion. I got to be happy all the time. If I show sadness, if I show anger, I get punished, they get mad at me. So they start shutting down their emotional world and try to be happy all the time. But what they're doing is murdering part of themsel, saying that's bad. But then they go, I can't listen to my gut. I can't trust my gut. Because when I go around that uncle and I feel bad, my mom keeps pushing me and say, your uncle's fine. And then he sexually abuses me. But there's nothing I can do. So, I'll shut that down. My needs are never getting met. I keep talking about them. So, let's just start shutting down my needs. I don't need this. I don't need that. So, you begin to shut down more and more of what makes you human.

>> Then you go, I got to shut down my sensitivity. I got to shut down all of that parts of my personality that I don't like. I'm too talkative. I'm too unorganized. I hate I hate I hate shut down. Shut down. Now when you look in a pe person's eyes, you see the emptiness of their soul. They've shut down so much of them. It's like you're looking into a robot. There's no life there. There's just this empty black spot and it's because they've had to shut down. Um so some have learned to compensate for that and and and mask all of that. And so you begin to see it in other ways. You see their difficulty sometimes in regulating their emotions. You see their shame show up in people pleasing, not setting boundaries, not respecting your boundaries. Um having trouble if you say no to them. They they get all upset or they can't say no to you. They need you to like them or they're just depends who they're with. They shift into this different persona and it's like they're a chameleon. They can be whatever the group requires of them, but they don't know who they authentically are. And then they don't all of their sense of having value is based on externals. It's based on their job, their money, who they know, their body, their brains, their possessions. And you go, they don't have any sense of inherent worth. And then they got to be busy all the time. they can't stay connected. So you just start seeing characteristic after characteristic that this person is dealing with shame and not being present in ways that enabled them to survive in the past but are really standing out now.

>> Yeah, that makes total sense. I know you mentioned before you know like the perfect child or these different roles that we play as children. What are the main ones would you say? Can you describe them and how they manifest in in adulthood?

>> Yeah. So it's the the whole childhood roles has been broken down into four kind of main roles. So there's the hero child or the perfect angel child. Then there's the comedian or the jester child. Then there's the invisible or lost child. And then there's the problem child or the scapegoat. And so what's important to understand is you've got a child whose needs aren't being met, who's got pain because of that, who's being hurt because they're not being loved, respected, accepted, seen, heard, validated. All of their core emotional needs aren't being consistently met. So in the child's mind, it's my fault. I just need to change. If I adapt, I can fix the problem. It's on me to fix the problem.

>> They can't fathom or even their brain can allow can't allow them to fathom that mom and dad might have their own problems and mom and dad might even be very screwed up because they need mom and dad to be solid. They need mom and dad to be heroes because they couldn't deal with the reality and pain of the people caring for them being very unhealthy. So there's a

>> I was going to ask why do we always take responsibility?

>> Yeah. So there's a level of denial about mom and dad's role. There's it's all on me. It's all my fault. I'm the one that has to change if this is going to be fixed. So depending on the child, the personality, what they might get validated for, they will try different roles and then settle on one that seems to work the best. And in some cases, depending who they're with, they'll switch into different roles. So the hero child usually is the one that gets validated quickly for being responsible, for taking care of mom and dad, for being very compliant, for conforming to the rules, for being super responsible, for never saying no, for always pleasing everybody, for always being sweet, for never being needy, for never being too out there, for being a hard worker. All of that in our culture gets validation, validation, validation. So the kid goes, "Wow, this is working. I am finally getting love and respect and people are looking up to me. So I am going to be this hero child." The problem is

>> like the oldest child

>> often.

>> Yeah. often problem is when you get to adult life, you burn yourself out and deep down you have a deep anger and resentment that you're caring for everybody else and nobody's caring for you.

>> You're taking care of everybody else's needs. Nobody sees your needs or cares about your needs. So it but to get out of it then you go I couldn't do that. I couldn't give it up because then nobody would validate me. nobody would see me or respect me. So they feel trapped in this prison almost that I have to continue to try to be this people pleaser, perfectionist, conforming to the rules person. So that's number one. Number two is the comedian who their response to all the anger in the family, the hurt in the family, and to try to get their so they're going to try to fix the family and try to get their needs met is to get everybody to like them and always be light and funny. So if we're laughing all the time, then we'll feel close. Then we won't be fighting. Then we won't be arguing. and everybody's going to look up to me cuz I'm the funny guy that's always got a good story and I'm going to have lots of friends and I get validation and I'm going to be popular and that's where they go. But then they get to adult life and try to have an intimate relationship and they can never be serious. They can never get real. They can never go deep into their own stuff because they got to keep it light. They got to keep it funny. They hate conflict. They run from conflict. So they never resolve problems. They just try to gloss over problems with humor. So that's number two. And then number three is the invisible child or the lost child. And they're the one that says basically I'm going to become super small so that I'm never a burden. I'll never put my needs out there. I'll never be have a big personality. I will hide out in my room. I will serve everybody behind the scenes quietly or I will isolate and be totally invisible. So, I'll be a flower on the wall as long as I'm not noticed um and asked to do anything that would put me on display. So, if you look at a complex trauma family that's very unhealthy and those are the three kids that you have, a spectator would come and say, "Wow, what a wonderful family. You must be wonderful parents. Look at these three children. This one never makes any demands. They're so giving. This one is so responsible. This one is funny, is always pleasant. This is a perfect family. Meanwhile, you got three kids trying to survive a very sick family. Um, so that's where the fourth one, the scapegoat, the problem child, they're the only one that refuses to go into denial. They're the only one that refuses to be dishonest about their needs not being met. That there's a lot of unhealthy stuff and anger and hurt happening in this family. And so they refuse to conform. They refuse to not keep their voice quiet. But the problem is now they're considered to be defiant, rebellious, not appreciative, don't have gratitude. You don't know how good you've got it. And everybody now looks at them and go, "Wow, you'd have a wonderful family if it wasn't for that one kid. That one kid is why your family is struggling." So that makes them the scapegoat. Now all of the problems of the family are now blamed on that child. And that child gets an identity out of that. They almost in their mind are proud that they stand up to all this corruption and all of this abuse of authority. So now when they get to adult life, they they feel they need to maintain that defiant attitude to everything. And so they're they turn into this identity even when they're with safe people, even when they're in healthy relationships, they still got to be defined.

That is fascinating and I can definitely see even in my own life, you know, how people around me and myself included, you know, like have different roles and grew up and you know with the comedy child like the funny child you mentioned is like they they're really scared of like being boring or like people if they don't crack a joke people won't like them and you know like then you've got the people pleaser and then you've got and then I could also associate in my head like, "Oh, this is the oldest child usually or this is the middle child or the youngest child." Very, very interesting.

>> Good. Yeah. And what I want people to know is that child was trying to survive. They weren't going, I I'm looking for a way to mess up my life in 30 years, so I am going to adopt these roles that will eventually lead to nothing but trouble. No, this is a child that's so overwhelmed by hurt and their needs not being met that their brain is just desperate to try to find a place to keep get to safety where they feel a bit safer and survive. So, it's so important for people to realize that the correct answer when you see this stuff in yourself is to not beat yourself up >> and not go, "Oh, wow. You really screwed up. That's terrible. You're terrible." No, don't beat up the child that's trying to survive in a very difficult surrounding. Understand why they had to and understand that the tools that let them survive no longer work today. You need to learn new tools today, not beat up a child.

>> Absolutely. Such an important message. And you know this the whole point of like self-development, self-love, self-acceptance is you know like accepting yourself. So beating yourself up is not a good strategy into you know self-development, self-growth, self-acceptance. And you've touched on shame as well. Um why do people who've experienced trauma have this really intense feeling of shame?

So to me there's two levels to this Francesca because most people when they think of shame think of the emotion of shame and there is an emotion of shame and and that's really what most cultures have focused on is you should be ashamed of yourself. So shamebased cultures is you don't do certain things because it'll bring shame to mom and dad. It'll bring shame to the family. And so we understand the feeling of shame. But the question that to me is so important for people to understand is where does that emotion come from? Emotions don't just happen. They're because of something else. And so it really gets to shame as an emotion is actually a secondary definition of shame. The true deep definition of shame is shame is actually a core belief that I'm not good enough. I don't deserve love. I have to earn love. I am not lovable. I don't have value in myself. If something goes wrong, it must be my fault. So that core belief, why I highlight that is because for most people that is totally subconscious. So, let's say you look at a young girl that was neglected, sexually abused. Um, and so she develops a deep I don't like myself. I'm not lovable. Anybody that's attracted to me is going to want to use me and and not just love my soul. They're only love my body. But she is pretty. She gets lots of validation for her looks. So she's adored by everybody at school because she's the prettiest girl in the school. So if you were to go up to her and go, "Do you have shame?" She go, "No, I don't have shame. I feel good about myself." So she's equating shame as just being because I don't have the emotion at the moment. I don't have shame. What she doesn't realize is she is controlled by shame. Her whole point of not having shame emotions is I have to keep myself pretty and the prettiest and attractive and I got to learn to flirt and learn to be good in bed so that I always feel good about myself. So she is looking to others to validate her for her to be able to feel good about herself. That's always a sign of shame >> because I don't naturally have good feelings for myself. I have to perform to get others to validate me and I will perform in either position, power, brains, looks, body, whatever. Um because I don't inherently feel good about myself as is. So that shame to me is what comes out of all complex trauma is that deep negative self identity that operates in this subconscious and that's why when I do a series or a seminar on shame people come and go I don't have shame by the end of it they go oh I didn't see how much shame I actually have and it's because they just think of it as an emotion and they don't see that core thing or see that it's been in their subconscious since a child.

>> That makes a lot of sense and I think a lot of people can relate to that. Especially what you mentioned like girls feeling like oh I need to be pretty or I need to flirt or I need to get guys attention and you know same way for guys like oh I need to get loads of girls or I need to achieve this to be good enough.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. So to me it's just for people to realize we've done a whole series on it but it's a core I would say it's it's kind of the ground zero for the damage done from complex trauma because it it's it reshapes your core identity from a positive to a negative and that then affects everything you do in life every relationship you enter into. So, a person with a positive self identity when they go into a relationship, they go in as an equal. My needs matter just as much as yours. If you don't respect me as much as I respect myself, I'm out of here. Um, and and so that is their whole approach to relationships. A person with shame, they go, I have to earn love. I am not lovable. So, I am going to go into a relationship deep down feeling that I better please you if you're going to take care of me. I better put my needs aside and put your needs in the forefront if you're going to like me. So, what you've done is you've set up a relationship that's imbalanced and it's because of shame. And so, it leads to codependent type relationships where I am trying to get you to like me so you'll meet my needs. I am not going and going my needs are already met. I'm not having this relationship based on need. I'm having this relationship based on I'm looking for companionship and I'm looking for connection. It goes at it with a totally different motivation behind relationships.

>> And I'm curious is what is the difference between shame and low selfworth or are they the same thing?

>> They're basically the same. Um, low selfworth is kind of what so low self-esteem and all of that back in the 80s became kind of a buzz term. Um, but I would if I could make a distinction that might be helpful. I think when many people use the word shame, they actually as an emotion they actually mean guilt. Um so the distinction around shame and guilt is often very important for people to understand. So guilt is really a healthy system. It's like this internal alarm system that every time I do something that violates love. So I tell a lie, I cheat, I steal, there's a siren that goes off inside that makes me feel guilty. It's a very uncomfortable feeling. But what the point of it is, is it mo motivates me to get back to living in a loving way to treat people with respect to treat people the way I want to be treated. So guilt can be resolved. It can it's based on actions doing stuff that violates love and it creates guilt feelings that often has been called shame. You should be ashamed of yourself because you just lied. But it's really guilt. Shame is all about that feeling based on identity. It's not about what I do. It's about who I am.

>> So very guilt's about what I do. Shame is about who I am. Guilt I can resolve. Shame I can't fix.

>> How do I change who I am to that child? That means that's impossible. So now I have to try and compensate for shame to get that feeling to go away. So, I'll be the smartest kid in the class, the best athlete in the class, the richest, the most successful, the prettiest, whatever. But I'm constantly trying to compensate as my only way of knowing how to resolve it.

>> Yeah, that's such an important distinction about identity level and then behavior.

>> Exactly.

>> What about people who feel like they're a burden in their relationships? Why is that?

So to me it's very much a complex trauma shame thing again. So if you're neglected or abused and you go it must be my fault. So why am I being neglected? Well must be because I'm too much. I'm too needy. If I get criticized every time I express the need. If I get told I'm selfish every time I have a need. If I ask for something and mom rolls her eyes like or mom's size, I just I feel like a burden all the time for having needs, for being alive, for being in this relationship. And so what the child does again to compensate to adapt is I will take care of everybody else's needs and not have any needs of my own because if I have needs I will be a burden and people will reject me. And so it's very much that shame thing that having a need makes me a burden. What people don't realize and this is the other side of the equation. So that's what's happening in a child. A child is only concluding that because they're with unsafe people who are being narcissistic, where their needs matter more than the child. Because if the parent saw the child as an equal that they truly loved, their needs wouldn't be a burden. But if the parent is kind of wrapped up in their own selfish world, yes, the child is going to be neglected. the child is going to be abused and the child is going to pick up. I guess I'm a burden to this person, but they need to realize that's an unsafe person. You never are a burden with a safe person, only with an unsafe person.

>> Important message. And I know you you've touched on this, but how does trauma or complex trauma affect your sense of self? Can you tell me more about that?

So the two things so the one is if I'm authentic so if I back up every child comes into the world with really two powerful driving forces that are necessary and are good and number one is I need to connect or attach because I can't meet my own needs. I need to connect to mom and dad if I'm going to get my needs met. So attachment or connection is a powerful powerful driving force and that never goes away. I I am always going to need to attach to be healthy. But the second is the child comes in with this drive to be authentic. I am going to be me. My warts and all personality is going to come out. And so what in a healthy home a child realizes is if I'm authentic with safe people then I attach and I have true healthy intimacy and that leads to wonderful joy. But what happens in complex trauma is if a child is authentic they get rejected they get judged. They don't attach. So all of a sudden a formula a math formula develops in their mind that attachment or authenticity doesn't lead to attachment it leads to rejection and that will show up later in life. But what then happens is okay my authentic self therefore is bad so I need to hide it. And so it usually starts piece by piece. So I'm too sensitive I'll stop being sensitive. I'm too shy, I'll stop being shy. I'm too angry, I'll stop being angry. So, I hate that I'm so sensitive. I hate that I'm so disorganized. And they start shutting down parts of themselves. So, that soul murder is happening. And I'll try to be whatever other people want me to be. So, they pretty soon develop a persona. So, it could be the hero child, the comedian child, whatever. But they develop a persona that gets them acceptance depending on the group they're in and they can switch to different personas depending on the group. The problem is 30 years later they get into recovery and they go who am I? I don't even know. I lost the authentic me when I was five. I've been playing roles since then wearing masks being some what everybody else wants me to be. I don't even know who I am. So, I've had clients who first week of recovery, they do a personality test and they go, "Oh, yeah, I'm an extrovert." Blah, blah, blah. And then I get them to do it a year later and it's totally changed >> and they find out I'm an introvert. What? I thought I was an Well, you've been playing an extrovert for so long. You've got so good at it that that's who you thought you really were. But now you're realizing that no, you're an introvert. But in the past, you would have judged yourself for being an introvert. You you look down on introverts as being boring. But now you're learning to accept that this is the real you. So that's why most people with complex trauma don't know who they really are because they've been wearing masks for so long that they don't even know their identity. So, if I can add one more thing to this, Francesca, because what happens with a lot of people, they come into recovery and they go, "Help me get help me get to know myself." And I go, "Good. Let's do it." But in their mind is they think there's some switch on the wall that's going to get flipped and within one week they're going to know who they are. And I go, "No, it doesn't work that way." How did a child in a healthy environment, how did they get to know themselves? Well, they spend the first 18 years of their life exploring, playing, trying a thousand different hobbies. One day they want to be a doctor, the next day they want to be a fireman, the next day they want to be a football player. Like, they got to try and fail a thousand times and then they go, "Oh, here's what I'm good at. Here's what I'm good at. I'm not good at that." So, in recovery, you got to give yourself permission to explore and play.

>> I love that.

>> Give yourself time to figure out who you are and try all kinds of different things.

>> So, is this how you rebuild that identity if you've lost who you are or you know, you came in, you didn't even know who you were as a child, but then you had to put all these masks on. So, how do you go back to that authentic self?

Yeah. And so what I want people to realize right up front is it's not something that happens quickly. This is a journey that you have to be willing to be patient with that you're going to now start out and I'm going to try different hobbies. I'm going to try things that deep down inside I've always thought maybe I might like or I might be good at, but I've been always afraid because a child in survival mode doesn't have time or brain energy to explore because they just got to survive. So, I'm just going to let myself begin to try different things. Maybe I'll volunteer here. I'll I'll sign up for this. So try this new hobby and just see am I good at it or not? And as you begin to do that, you begin to piece together this is what I'm good at. This is what I'm not. But then there's a second piece. How does a child partly get their identity? And so I use the illustration of mirrors. So you get your picture of your physical identity by looking in a mirror. But how do they get their core identity? It's they look into the mirrors of mom and dad and the people around them that reflect back to them by what they get validated for what they get how they get treated. This is who you are. Um and so it they reflect. But the problem in complex trauma is those mirrors aren't accurate mirrors. They're distorted mirrors. So, if you think of a a child, let's say, that's 2 m tall and very thin, but if they look in a distorted mirror and they're only a meter tall and a meter wide, and that's the only mirror they have, they grow up thinking they're a meter tall and a meter wide. But then they look in an accurate mirror and they're 2 meters tall, they go, "Something's wrong with that mirror." Like, that that's not right. And so it takes you a while to trust accurate mirrors when all you've had is distorted mirrors. So if somebody says to you when you haven't yet been able to trust accurate mirrors, "Wow, you're really good at this." You go, "Yeah, they're just saying that to be nice. They don't really mean it." Or, "I wonder what they're wanting. They like they're playing me here." And so you just kind of do away with absorbing kind of accurate mirrors. You only accept what fits the old distorted mirrors. And so, you really got to get some accurate mirror people around you that can give you good feedback that you learn to trust. And that can help you get to know yourself as well.

>> That's so good. And just reminds me cuz I've heard this a million times like the boyfriend says to the girlfriend like, "Oh, you're so attractive or you're so" and the girlfriend's like, "You're lying." You know, that's not true. It's like or you're a good person, but then it just doesn't feel true. It feels like

>> you're they're just saying that or they they don't really see me for who I am. They

>> you know they think I'm a good person but deep inside I'm not a good person or it's that feeling of I'm Yeah.

>> So if I can just say that another way for you if you realize that shame then has become the core message of a person with complex trauma which is I'm not lovable I'm not a good person etc. That actually becomes your default template your subconscious program that runs all the time. What you do as you go out into adult life is you are drawn to people that confirm that default template message. So you're draw you you actually get uncomfortable around people that contradict that message because it doesn't feel right. It feels wrong. It makes you uncomfortable. It makes you suspicious of them. That makes them feel unsafe to you. Whereas the people that feel safe to you are actually the unsafe people because they match the template. And so it's really realizing, wow, there's a default setting here that I got to retrain to a new setting. So what I say to people is when your default setting has been unhealthy to you, it becomes your normal, which makes it feel healthy because it's your normal. But now when you get around a healthy It feels wrong. It feels unsafe. It causes you stress. And so to get from an unhealthy default setting to a healthy setting takes 3 to six months of really walking through a lot of this feels wrong, this feels unsafe, this makes me afraid and very uncomfortable and even second-guessing myself before it becomes your new default setting.

M and was the process of achieving that default setting of I am good enough, I am lovable. Well, I think it leads to a very important piece in recovery for a lot of people, and that is that you really need to be around safe people. Because if you continue to be around very unsafe people, then they're going to be giving you all the old messages and you're going to have to be using survival tools. You can't truly connect. You can't trust. You can't do all of the healthy pieces. And so you're using survival tools. So you can go and read books and go to courses where you're getting lots of academic information, but you're not able to implement it because you're not with safe people. And so it becomes really important for people to realize that recovery involves an education element, but a safe connection element. And that often is the hardest part for people because that means I got to set some boundaries with the unsafe people of my life and create distance where I can find some safe people, a surrogate family where I can begin to connect, have healthy mirrors, be able to use these new tools, try these new tools, and that takes time. But those are essential building blocks of getting on the road to recovery. H I think a lot of people are not going to like to hear that because so many people especially nowadays what I've noticed especially after co use isolation or like distancing themselves from others as a coping mechanism and they don't realize as you said that healing doesn't happen in isolation it happens in the safe corrective relationships.

>> Exactly. And what I would say to some of those people is I think what co one of the good things that came out of COVID was we used to really think that connection could only happen in in-person relationships. But what we began to real like I remember the first time when we put our program online in COVID and my fear was we're not going to feel the connection over the internet. we're not going to pick up the vibes that we would in person and all of those cues of safety. But we were wrong. We were surprised, pleasantly surprised that even over the internet, we could still feel that connection and pick up all of those cues. And so I think for many pe what we've learned is for a lot of people that have been isolated a lot to go into a in-person face-to-face meeting creates way too much anxiety. That that's a a step too big for them to take. But they can start with doing some online connection stuff and eventually that can hopefully lead to some in-person stuff. But but if you only have a comfort level that tolerates online for now, start there because that is a great beginning point.

>> I never actually thought about it like that. I always thought about online connection as like a bad thing or like a problem, you know, but actually it makes a lot of sense when you say like it could be a step to like then further going into like inperson connection or deeper connection. So it's just like a toe in the water instead of like exactly overwhelming yourself.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And talking about relationships, can you tell me more about how complex trauma affects our relationships with others and how, you know, it leads to disconnection?

>> Yeah. So, if you just take kind of what we've said so far, so you're going into a relationship with a shame belief that I'm not good enough, that I have to earn love, that therefore I got to take care of your needs and suppress my needs, I got to keep you happy and only have one emotion myself or else you're going to be annoyed at me. I got to shut down being authentic because authenticity leads to rejection, not connection. So what you see right there is you just laid out a foundation that makes unhealthy relationships, codependent relationships. But then you take it farther and and so the child then begins to go to, well, I can't trust anybody cuz everybody I've trusted has let me down. So don't trust. Okay. The only way I'm going to get my needs met is if I'm in control or I do everything perfectly or I please everybody or I manipulate everybody. So

You've got four tools now that seem quite effective at meeting your needs, but they destroy intimate relationships. So you all of a sudden, what you begin to realize is complex trauma is setting relationships up to fail in adult life.

Then, to me, one of the biggest issues is for a person in complex trauma who had to dissociate. So any place but the present was desirable. So, "I'd rather be anywhere but in the present." Present to the present. Now you get into an adult relationship, and your partner wants to connect. Your partner wants you to be present to them, and you're just antsy and jumping all around inside, wanting to be anywhere else but right here, present to the present.

And then, if you look at a child from complex trauma where you couldn't resolve emotions, so you just stuffed emotions. So, "I can't resolve pain. I can't resolve sadness. I can't resolve anger. Stuff, stuff." Now you get into an adult relationship, and your partner wants to talk about emotions. You, your partner wants you to feel your emotions and talk about how you're feeling. "No. Emotions are dangerous. Emotions are bad."

Or you have a child who didn't stuff their emotions. They just exploded. And so now they're with their partner, and they just go off all the time. And their partner goes, "I can't deal with you. You just get so angry. You just go from zero to 100 in a nanosecond. I can't deal with it because they don't, they've never learned to regulate their emotional world." And so that destroys relationships.

So again, what I want people to realize is that complex trauma just sets a person up for failed relationships. So, if I can give just one other piece, when you look at a child that's neglected or abused, basically what the child is feeling deep inside is, "I'm being abandoned. I'm not just a burden. Nobody wants me. Nobody cares enough about me to connect with me." So, "I feel totally alone."

So when you think about abandonment, you begin to realize that's a pretty painful emotion. Maybe one of the most painful emotions, 'cause basically what it says is that, "I must be a zero if nobody wants to be with me. That's how much I have to offer." So what happens in the child is this massive fear of abandonment that if people get to know me, they're going to eventually see the real me and abandon me.

So now, when a person goes into a relationship without even realizing it, again, at a sub, at a subconscious level, it's they're operating out of a fear of abandonment script, which basically is, "If you get to know me, you're going to leave me." So now I either have to control you, be super needy, test you all the time, do super fawning things to keep you liking me. All of those things are guided by fear, not by love.

>> And so that sets up relationships to fail because people get tired of needy, needy, needy, control, control, control. And it, it drives people away. So you create the very thing you're trying to avoid.

>> The irony.

>> And how can someone heal their fear or wound of abandonment?

>> Again, it takes a lot of time. It's very possible, but it's probably the deepest, most painful wound for people that happened even preverbal in their life. Um, and so when they, it gets triggered today, they overreact. So their reaction doesn't match the crime of the moment. It's like way bigger.

Um, so what I want people to realize is emotions take place in the limbic part of your brain, and that's the survival part of your brain. And that's the child part of your brain. And so what happened if you were abandoned is if that gets triggered today, you go to the limbic part of your brain. But how does the limbic brain work? The limbic brain goes, "I need to get feeling better now. I need to do whatever makes me feel better now or what enables me to survive now." It doesn't think long-term. It doesn't think healthy. It just thinks short-term gratification. So, "If having this doughnut makes me feel good, then let's have a donut. If taking drugs makes me feel good, let's have drugs. If going out shopping makes me feel good, let's do that. Let's do what makes me feel good now."

So when a person has the fear of abandonment, what begins to happen is they begin to read things. They begin to read abandonment into things. So, "Oh, my husband didn't look me in the eyes when he came home. Oh, he's probably looking at somebody else." Or, "We went to a social event and he went off and he talked to a bunch of people and didn't give me any time." Or, "When I asked him a question, he seemed distracted and he criticized something I did."

So, you start reading abandonment, and then you go to your limbic brain. And what does the limbic brain do? Overreacts. It goes to this emotional lashing out, saying very distorted, hurtful things. So, what you have to realize is that your limbic brain, when it gets triggered, always gets to very distorted thinking that's not, it feels factual, but it's not. It's based on old wounds with unsafe people that you think are happening again today. And so the past has moved into the present, but you think it's just the present.

And so it's, it's helping people when the limbic brain gets triggered to regulate it and get back into their wise cortex where they can go, "Okay, here's what I'm feeling, but what are the facts? Let's look over the last six months. Has this person ever done anything that even hinted at abandonment, that hinted at rejection? No, they've been loving, consistent, reliable, giving. Okay, so the facts don't match the feelings. So, let's go with the facts." And you gradually begin to retrain your nervous system to be relying on the facts of today, not on the old wounds.

>> Amazing. Such an important message. I want to go a bit from romantic relationships into just like social interactions, whether that's with friends or at work. A lot of people with complex trauma feel like they never fit in or like they can never belong. Why is that?

>> Well, I think it goes back again to that lack of connection early in childhood. So, I never truly connected with mom and dad or siblings. I figured it was all my fault. So, what then happens with that is the brain goes to two places. It concludes that nobody will want to connect with me because I'm not good enough. And secondly, I don't even want to connect with myself because I don't even like me. So, I abandon myself. I feel abandoned by others. I abandon myself. I don't want to connect with myself anymore. So, I stay distracted and busy and dissociate. And I'm pretty sure nobody else wants to connect with me. But yet, I still long for connection. But I don't want to connect by being authentic. So, let's try finding connection through fun, common activities, sports, singing, dance, whatever. Or hanging out with the gang at the corner, smoking. Let's all conform by how we dress and how we act. It looks like I fit in, but I still don't feel it because deep down I'm not connected. And so the haunting awareness of lack of connection always wins out that I never feel like I totally fit in or belong. But people keep chasing, not healing the internal. They keep chasing, "If I only did this, then I'd fit in. If I only..." And they keep focusing on externals that, "If I only did this, then I'd belong and fit in." But it never works. So, to them, belonging isn't about authenticity. It's about conformity to a group standard. And it never works because unless there's true connection to safe people, you never feel like you fit in. Your internal gut always tells you the right message.

>> What about people who've like been either bullied, you know, in school or ostracized? I remember watching one of your videos and you were breaking it down in like really nice sections and one of them was like, you know, hanging out with other outcasts and then how that affects like the, you know, adult relationships and again, you're you're kind of feeling like I'm not like with the cool kids, I'm I'm an outcast or can you just go more deeply into that? I thought it was really interesting.

>> Yeah. So, like to me, again, the child that in a healthy home, their their harbor, their rock, their safe haven is home. That's where they're connected. That's where they're secure. That's where they're safe. Then they go out from that into the world and they interact with people. They don't need to fit in. They don't need to be accepted by the world because they fit in and are accepted at home. That's their rock.

Um, but a kid that doesn't have that at home, they then go out trying to find that somewhere else. So, I, I have to find my own tribe now. But I don't have the tools to know how to find a tribe. And I've already ruled out connection as being the key ingredient because in my mind, connection only leads to, or authenticity and connection are bad. So, I go out looking to find connection through fitting in. But I got to create a tribe outside of my family because I don't belong or fit in there because I don't connect. I can't be authentic. So, a child often depends on if they're really smart, they go to the nerds. If they're really good in sports, they go to the jocks. If they're really pretty, they go kind of in that group. And so, they, they kind of find their own place. And if they can't fit in anywhere else, they just go to the corner of the school where all the losers are there and they start their own little outcast group. Um, but it gives them enough feeling of "I'm not alone" that it helps a little bit.

Um, and what I would add would be this. When you look at the whole bullying situation, to me, a bully is a kid with lots of shame. They don't feel good enough. And so, they're trying to compensate by being putting others down, by picking on others, by being superior to others, by being cruel. Um, but it's shame dressed up to look superior. But that's a ton of shame that causes a kid to go against empathy and love and kindness and do the things that they do. But their radar finds other kids with shame that aren't being bullies, but are actually feeling very inferior to others. And they gravitate to those kids because they know those kids aren't going to stand up for themselves. Those kids aren't going to stand up to them. Because they've, they've been so beaten down by their families that they just take it. They, they're afraid to stand up for themselves. And so two shame people in the playground, a bully and the bullied, attract each other. Um, and, and so often the bullies then, 'cause they still want to connect, they create their own little group of all their minions that are going to run around and do their bidding and they feel superior over. So it's like a narcissist that gets their mirrors around them that adore them, but they always have to pick on somebody else to try to make themselves feel bigger and better than everybody.

>> And how can you recover someone who's experienced bullying in that way? How can they recover as an adult if it's still influencing their life?

>> Yeah. And that's where I want people to realize is so many of the problems you face in adult life, you, you see the symptoms. So let's say, "Oh, I keep falling, getting bullied at work. I keep kind of going into old patterns with bullying." And they try to just fix the patterns. And to me, you're putting band-aids on symptoms. Until you actually heal the shame, the band-aids never work. And, and what does it mean to heal the shame? It means that I learn to accept and respect myself enough that I'm willing to stand up for myself and require others to respect me. And if you don't respect me, you're out of my life. I'm not going to try to have a relationship with you. I'm not going to take it. I am going to take steps to stop it. And when a bully senses that in a person, usually they're, they're gone because they only go after people that will take it. But you can't stop it and change it until you heal the shame. Until you grow to the place that I respect myself enough that I'm going to stand up for myself and require others to respect me, too.

>> Mmm, yeah, that makes total sense. And just going back a bit to romantic relationships now, um, how does trauma affect someone's sexuality and intimacy?

>> In many ways. Um, so it can, if there's been as part of the trauma, sexual abuse, that's a whole other story. So let me just cover that first. Um, 'cause often with sexual abuse, a couple different things happen within that child. So number one is they feel used, dirty. Um, they hate sex, and they get to a point where they don't want anything. It just triggers them, makes them feel awful, angry, used. So they've never, they've been told they're loved, but love has always been sex. Love is always involved being used and hurt and taken advantage of. And so there's a great confusion there. Whereas others, this is the way they got validation. They realize, "Wow, my body, sex. So they can go to the other extreme and that's all they want now. They become sex addicts, love addicts because this is what I'm good for. This is what I'm good at. This is what gives me value. And that was proven to me as a kid. So I am going to take that all the way to the bank all of my life." That has its own set of problems as well. So sexual abuse has just a profound earthquake effect on a child that can take years to sort through all of the wrong messages about sex, the wrong messages about self, the triggers around sex, love, relationships that can really make intimate relationships very difficult.

Okay, other piece over here. If you look at a child whose needs weren't met, so there's, when a child connects and is able to be authentic with safe people, it releases wonderful chemicals in the brain, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin. They feel good. We feel loved. We feel connected. We feel joy. So it releases the, the chemicals that make life worth living. True connection with safe people. But picture a child who can't connect. So they don't have any connection, which means they don't have those chemicals. So there's a real vacuum in their brain and emptiness. What's been released in their brain rather is cortisol, adrenaline. There's anger, there's fear, there's all those negative emotions. That's not a pretty world to have to live in, especially when you can't resolve it. So, they go to grandma's house and grandma gives them a freshly baked cookie and it releases dopamine in the brain and they go, "This feels really good." Now they want to take eating out of a healthy role of meeting my physical needs and they want to use eating now to meet their emotional needs because it makes, it gives dopamine. Then they find sex and they go, "This beats cookies. This is way better. A lot more dopamine. Oxytocin is released. I never had to have true connection. I just have the sex." So now they're taking sex out of a healthy use and using it to meet emotional needs because it's releasing chemicals. And that's why so many people that end up with sex addictions, relationship addictions, porn addictions, they're just chasing the chemicals of connection without actually having to connect in healthy ways. But they're ending up with addiction because they don't really satisfy or meet the needs. And so most people from complex trauma who've not had true connection have trouble with sex.

So let me back up and say it this way. In a healthy place where true connection happens first and you enter into a relationship and you build healthy connection with a safe person, sex is like the cherry on top. It, it becomes just an added bonus to an already strong relationship. But for a child from complex trauma where there's no connection, what they begin to think is, "If I give them sex, that gives the feelings of connection." So sex is what leads to connection. So now you're putting so much pressure on sex to be the glue that makes the relationship stick together. You're using sex to, as a way to compensate for your shame. So, "They'll never like me if I'm authentic. But if I'm really good in bed, then they'll like me." So now sex is used to draw people to the relationship. Sex is used as glue to hold a relationship together, but there's still no intimacy. And so it puts way too much pressure on sex. And so eventually people get sick of that and they don't want it because all of the underlying stuff has not been looked at or healed and no true intimacy is happening. And so I think most people from complex trauma have some form of struggle with sex to some degree. Some greater than others, but all to some degree. And it doesn't help that our culture feeds us all kinds of lies around it and, and movies kind of set the stage all wrong about it. But to me, it's, it's one of those areas sadly that doesn't get enough attention and helping people in their recovery. Um, and so they continue to follow the old patterns around sex and wonder why they struggle so much because it hasn't been, they haven't had it explained to them how it connects to their trauma.

>> Absolutely. And this is exactly why I wanted to ask you about it because I feel like it's not getting any coverage, especially from this psychological complex trauma perspective. Um, and I think it's needed because as you said, so many people have issues with it in one way or another. And, you know, regarding what you said about, um, people who have experienced sexual abuse or some trauma like that around sex, what is the healing path for them? What, how, how can they heal and reconnect to a healthy sexuality?

>> Before I answer that, Francesca, if I could just add one other element of trauma, please.

>> And I think it would be kind of religious or cultural trauma around sex. So many shame-based cultures and many religions, sex is almost seen as bad. They're patriarchal. Sex is for men. Women have to be pure, chaste, and dressed a certain way. And if men feel tempted, it's the woman's fault. And, um, men never have to be responsible for their sex drive. And so it's created very unsafe cultures. But it's shamed women that they're, they should be ashamed of their body. They should not be proud of their body. That, and then the other fear is, you're supposed to love God more than anything. Sex is so pleasurable that if you enjoy sex too much, oh, that's a bad pleasure. And so all of a sudden sex is almost, you can't enjoy it. It's bad. And so there's been all this messaging around feeling guilty for having sexual drives, feeling guilty for sexual needs, um, for your body, for all of those different things. So I think there's a cultural religious element that plays massively into this that has not been looked at and absolutely women, women bear the brunt of that sadly. Um, and so to me, there's an, a huge education piece that really deconstructs the indoctrination of the culture and of the religion that begins to go, "Hey, sex is beautiful to be enjoyed. It's a pleasure, but it is designed to happen. It's only truly, truly meaningful. Like, it's pleasurable, but it's truly meaningful when there's true intimacy with a safe person." Then it's, then it adds to the relationship. It's not the glue that holds it together. It's not the basis of attraction. It's, but it becomes an important part of, of expressing love and feelings to the other person. So it's a beautiful thing that's been abused sadly in thousands of different ways. So it's again, a lengthy deconstruction of all that I've believed and learned to really going, "What is sex about? What's it designed to be? And I want to be able to enjoy it. I, I don't want to be ashamed of my body. I want to be proud of all of that." Um, and so to me, to me, it's just a gradual process for people. But what I want people to realize, especially women, so most, I, this is might be an oversimplification, but in many cultures, men do what looks like loving acts in order to get women to give them sex, and women give sex in order to get love. And so you get this, "give love to get sex, give sex to get love" type of imbalance. That's the only way they've known to establish a relationship. For them to go into a relationship and not lead with sex, not flirt, not offer sex, then they would panic because, "Well, they love me. Do they think I'm cold? Do they think I don't care about them?" etc., etc. And so it's really, then that's my own shame stuff. That's my own fear stuff guiding this relationship. I need to work on that or else I'm going to set this relationship off following the old script, the old pattern of, "I got to perform and give in order to be worthy of love." And that, that's easier said than done, but it's so important to start there.

>> What if the opposite happens? And I love, I know a lot of women experience this if they've experienced some sort of sexual trauma and then they are in a loving relationship or, you know, but then when their partner wants sex or to get intimate, they feel triggered. They don't want it and they end up like not having sex in the relationship. So what's the solution there?

>> Yeah. And that sadly happens quite a bit. And what I tell couples is, so say the wife that's had the sexual abuse. And so I say to the husband, "You may have to just accept you're not going to get as much sex as you want for a while." Um, because you, but your, your wife needs to be in therapy working on herself, working on her trauma. And then you need to do stuff either with a sex therapist or a therapist together where you're beginning to learn how to handle the triggers, how to engage in foreplay in a way that's not triggering, how to have a sexual relationship. Um, but you got to be in therapy to do that. Because there's a lot of stuff to unpack. The danger is for a woman five years later to still say to the husband, "I'm not giving you sex 'cause I got my trauma." Well, you're setting the relationship up for affairs, for to fail. And so, it's really realizing it's not just on them to withhold and to kind of keep their desires in check while I deal on my stuff, but I got to deal with my stuff. And that's painful. And then I've got to enter into those waters again, but with a person now that's respected me, that's been safe to me. And I got to relearn sex. I got to relearn all of those cues of touch and all of that, what it means because I was mistrained and I got to be able to kind of reprogram all of that. And that's going to take time and I got to be able to have honest discussions in sex after sex with my partner about trying stuff, pleases, what doesn't, triggers, what doesn't, and learn together how to develop a meaningful, healthy sexual relationship.

>> Such an important topic and I'm really glad we touched on it. Can you also tell me if someone's trying to let go of a relationship, how would you tell them they go about that?

>> I think there's two levels to it. So the first would be, um, so a child that doesn't connect, um, what often happens to them is once they feel connected to something, so it could be a thing, it could be an activity or or person, they so love that feeling of connection that it's hard to let go of it. So that's where you get a hoarder. That's where you get somebody that just can't move on after somebody dies because they're trying to hang on to that connection that gave them life for a little while. And so it's, it's beginning to realize, "Okay, I've got attachment issues, number one, but number two, attachment feelings are in the limbic brain. So, I'm trying to hang on to a limbic brain feeling even when all the facts say that the relationship's over. I'm still trying to hang on to it in my fantasy, in my memories, and it's keeping me actually stuck. It's not healthy because there's no true connection there. It's living in a, a fake world that is in my fantasy, hanging on to a feeling."

So, what I want people to do is, you're still going to have the limbic brain longings, the limbic brain, "I'm in love, I miss them so much" feelings, but you got to get to your cortex and go, "But I still got to move on. And I got to choose to move on. I'm not going to feed my limbic brain. I'm not going to sit there and pine away all day about them and how much I miss them and all the good old times. I'm going to, no, I'm going on with my life." And as they do that and say, "Because the facts say the relationship's done and I need to go and connect to somebody else." As they do that, those feelings will begin to die down. They will begin to, um, be less and less. So that's part one. In moving on is you really have to manage your limbic brain and just acknowledge you're going to go through feelings, you're going to miss them. That's what grief is. That's what loss is all about. And that can take two or three years before that limbic brain settles down. But I have to, in my actions, move to reconnect and not just feed into trying to maintain those feelings, which then becomes an unhealthy fantasy world.

So then the second thing to me is, I have to learn healthy connection to safe people. Um, because as long as I'm trying to hang on to something in the past, I'm never going to be able to be in the present. I'm still dissociating. I'm still refusing to be present in the present. And that's the issue. I got to be present in the present. And I got to learn connection in the present. And so it's, once you can learn to connect to a healthy person, it's amazing how quickly I don't need that old tool anymore because I've got the real deal now.

>> Absolutely. And I love coming from that complex trauma psychological approach rather than just, "Oh, go to the gym," which is like, can be helpful, but, you know, like just understanding the deeper mechanisms. And you mentioned, you know, unhealthy fantasy. I wanted to ask you, is it the same thing as maladaptive daydreaming, or what is that?

>> Yeah. So, it's so important for people to understand that there is a very healthy part of a child that is daydreaming, that's using my imagination, that's visualizing all of this stuff. That, that's just a healthy part of development of life and of of coping that we love that. That's why we write stories and read stories and all of that. What? So to expand on that, part of what a child needs in life and every person needs in life is, "I can go into my day and face the stresses of the day, the responsibilities of the day. But I need a time at the end of the day where I now take care of my needs. I now escape the pressures for a little while." Not to totally escape, but just to take a break from the pressures because I'm going to come back tomorrow and face them all again. So, I'm still present to my life and to the reality, but I'm taking a temporary escape from it in a healthy way to a healthy activity to give my body a rest, to give my nervous system a break. And so, that becomes the healthy balance between work, rest. I got to take care of me and I got to engage in responsibility.

What happens with unhealthy escapes is, "I want to live in my escape. I want to stay in my escape. I don't want to be in the present 'cause to that person, I can't resolve the present. I can't fix the problems of the present. So why even want to be there? I want to be anywhere but the present." Whereas in the first cases, as I'm working on these responsibilities and problems, I'm fixing each one as I go. It's still a burden and a stress, but I'm resolving each one. But I still need self-care to take care of me. So the person that can't resolve it gets drawn to a fantasy life that becomes an unhealthy escape because now I don't have to deal with the present.

>> And I never want to deal with the present. I want to avoid, avoid, avoid. So pretty soon, what can happen with some of them is as soon as any responsibility comes along, their brain immediately switches to how to avoid it. And it often goes into a fantasy world or a daydreaming world. Um, because they just can't face reality anymore because it's always a problem.

>> And for some people, it's not daydreaming, it's night dreaming. Um, I think so many people create fake scenarios before bed. Um, it's a really hot topic on the internet, on TikTok especially. Is that, is that good? Is that bad? Is it unhealthy? Healthy?

>> Again, from a complex trauma perspective, what to me, it's important for people to understand the brain is totally committed to keep you safe and to try to resolve your problems. That's its priority because it can only keep you safe if it resolves the problems. So what happens when a child is in a situation where mom and dad are the problem and they can't change mom and dad is they can't resolve the problems in the family, they can't resolve the pain in their own heart because mom and dad aren't willing to change. So that then leads to obsessive thinking because the brain keeps thinking, "There's got to be a solution here. If I just think about this long enough, then I can come up with a solution." So the brain is always going, "Option A, option B, option C, option D," constantly. It can't relax because the problem's not resolved. And that's why for some people, their escape into their head is not just obsessive thinking, but, "If I'm thinking, then I don't have to feel." If I'm solving a problem, I don't have to feel these emotions. So I'd rather think than feel. So, I'm going to be a walking brain and not have to deal with these emotions anymore. So they pride themselves on being this analytical, cool as a cucumber thinker that's very analytical, that's a great problem solver, that's got ice in their veins because they've just learned to live in their brain.

So they've taken a lot of really good things there and gone over the top with it. So they've taken creativity, imagination, problem-solving, thinking, analyzing, and now they overanalyze, they hyperanalyze. And so they've taken good, necessary skills and their survival necessity makes them now overdo all of those things. So what happens though for many people is during the day they can shut their brain off by getting busy at work. So as long as they got, "I got all these tasks to do. I got to go." You can turn your brain off. Soon as. And then they can go home and watch TV and keep their brain offline basically because they got enough distractions. As soon as they go to bed and their brain starts relaxing, guess what happens? Now I got a thousand problems to solve. And that's the brain's natural thing is, "You've not let me think all day. You've kept me offline all day. So now that you've shut down for the night, now I'm going to come online and I'm going to think, think." And so that for many people becomes a huge issue that prevents healthy sleeping. It then gets them not just thinking about the problem, but then they go to worst-case scenario. "Well, this could happen, that." And then fear takes over and all of a sudden now they can't sleep even more because now they got, their pulse is racing and they're expecting the worst to happen. And then they listen to the news before they go to bed and they hear what's happening in the world and that feeds into all of that. And so the brain needs healthy stimulation but healthy boundaries. And if you don't give that to it, but you try to accomplish that through constant busyness and distractions, it will make it up usually in the evening and then you got a problem.

>> Really interesting. I think a lot of people will will relate and resonate with that. My next question is, what is the foundation of healing complex trauma?

>> So what I want people to realize is it's a biopsychosocial spiritual. So if it's, if you look at a child even when they're in the womb. So if you look at your vagus nerve, it doesn't just pick up information through your five senses. It picks up information through what we call neuroception. So it senses through your gut, your intuition, whether something's safe or not. So even in the womb, a child, an infant can pick up its mom's emotional state, its mom's stress level, and it's already feeling safe or unsafe based on what it's picking up in the womb. So what that means is that much complex trauma happens preverbal, before a child can even talk. Well, what's the normal healing part in process or in resolving trauma for a child once they're a bit older? They need to talk about it. They got to process it verbally and then get a hug and then get soothed and then get assurances and then get their needs met. But if it's preverbal, what then does the brain do to it? It can't resolve it. So it stores it in the body and your nervous system is changed so that it can't relax and so it affects your immune system. And so for many people, a key part in healing is they have to do somatic work. They have to get in touch with their body, help their body release the trauma that was stored there. So that's part one. Then you shut down your emotions because you couldn't resolve your emotions. So you've disconnected from your body, but it stored trauma in your body. You've disconnected from your emotions and so you're out of touch with that. So now you have to venture into getting in touch with your emotions again and all the pain that is there. But what do, what does a child? So this is the key thing. It used to be that you just get, need to take people back to their trauma so they feel it. No, that in many cases just retraumatizes them.

That's only one part of the healing equation. You only have value in going back to your trauma if you go back connected to a safe person who can co-regulate you, who can help you process it, who can help you see it through adult eyes, not just the child's eyes, who can help you find soothing and comfort and all the things that you need at that time and the tools that you weren't taught as to how to deal with that, then you can resolve it today. But if you just go back to your pain without those things, you just retraumatize the person. And so it's again, you need connection. So you need information, you need connection, you need somebody that can help co-regulate you and reprocess with you and teach you the tools to resolve that stuff. Then you can begin to heal.

So what is so important for people is much of our healing thinking is based on the medical healing model. So, if you have a, a broken thumb or you have an infection from a cut, you go into a doctor, you got a physical problem, they diagnose it, they prescribe a cast, a medication, antibiotics, whatever, and basically six to 12 weeks, you'll be better. And you've got a straight line up that leads to you're fixed. So people come into trauma thinking that that same model applies and it doesn't. So the complex healing model is you first have to have safety. You got to create safety for yourself and that usually means by connecting with a safe person, a therapist, somebody that can really become that co-regulator with you. Then you begin to process the memories together and resolve them. Well, what you can realize as soon as you start to process the memory, you don't feel safe anymore. So you can regress. And so all of a sudden your little neat little thing started to go up, then it just dropped. Then you reconnect, use the new tools, and then you start going up again. Then you get triggered again, then you go back down. And so your line is now going like this, back and forth. And then you now move out, out of kind of 100% full-time therapy into, "I got to get back into a job and relationships, etc." And you move out into, well, they trigger you left and right. You don't feel safe and then you regress. And so now your line is going back and forth and up and down. And so what you're looking at in a realistic trauma recovery is kind of two years. The first six months are the most intense. You're going to be working on stuff for the rest of your life, but the first two years are kind of the major stuff. But it is a slow, messy, up and down, back and forth process that is so important for people to understand. And you can't do it alone. You got to do it through connection with some safe people that all those things that I mentioned so that you're healing physically, emotionally, relationally, intellectually, your immune system, all of those things which are affected by trauma.

>> Amazing. Thank you for laying the foundation. That makes a lot of sense. And just like my last question for this podcast, what are some signs that someone is healing from trauma?

>> Yeah, I think some of the key ones to me are that without even realizing it, you begin to realize that you feel better about yourself. So, your shame is healing. So, your inner critic isn't as loud as it used to be. Um, you're not as hard on yourself if you don't get it perfect the first time, kind of stuff. You don't have all those little voices of doubt and fear that are constantly were overpowering in the past. They seem to have abated quite a bit. And secondly, you're just experiencing kind of a more of a joy overall. You still have lots of hard days and really painful times of dealing stuff, but you just have more of a peace overall that was not there before. So that, that's a huge one.

Then secondly, in the past, if your shame was triggered, you wouldn't even realize it. And you would spiral downward for like two weeks into this very deep shame spiral where you hate life, hate yourself, life is hopeless, um, really hard on yourself. But now what you begin to realize is, "Okay, my shame got triggered, but it's not happening as often as these, these days. And when it does happen, I catch it because I know it's going on and I can work through it within an hour or a day or 15 minutes, but it doesn't go on for a whole week and it doesn't go as deep." So, I'm starting to realize, "I'm still getting triggered. Yes. But not as frequent, not as intense, doesn't last as long." Okay. So, I'm growing. I, I'm, I'm able to now stop some of the old patterns, catch them, use new tools, and get out of it much quicker.

And then I think for most people is they just realize they have an ability to be present now to themself, to others, to what's happening. They don't need constant distractions. They don't need constant busyness. There's just an ability to be connected and present to other people in a way that they weren't before. And usually with that, there's an ability to feel and be okay with their emotions in a way that they weren't before. And they can now actually even sit in uncomfortable ones without this panic that they have to escape somehow. Um, because they know they're going to resolve it. They're, it's not going to kill them and it's not the end of the world. This is life and this is part of life. So there's just, to me, those are some key subtle growth things and just, I think the other piece is they just begin to notice that their relationships, there's a depth and a meaningfulness to them that they didn't have in the past.

>> I love those and it's good to know, you know, for people to recognize these signs of progress in themselves.

>> Tim, thank you so much for all the value that you provided today and the time you took. It was an amazing and insightful podcast and I'm sure our listeners will feel the same way. Thank you again so much for being here today.

>> My pleasure. Thank you for having me.