Transcription
You might not know you're seeing it. You might not know you're hearing it. And you might not even know how to recognize it. But coercive control is happening right under your nose. And it's happening everywhere. It's the invisible thread and it's the underpinning that weaves through all forms of abuse. And it's often the most dangerous part of any relationship, especially when children are involved.
I'm Kathy O'Brien and on today's episode of Inside the Wellspace, we're peeling back the layers of coercive control with someone who knows it inside and out. Dr. Christine Coachola. Dr. Coachola is a clinician, a coach, college professor, an author, and a social justice advocate who has been working with adult and child victims of course of control since she was 19 years old. She's also a survivor herself and a protective parent, giving her a perspective that's equal parts professional expertise and lived experience. Dr. Coachola has presented her work nationally and internationally, is a founding member of the International Coercive Control Conference, and co-authored Framed: Women in the Family Court Underworld, shining a light on the gender-based injustices in family courts. She's also host of Perfect Prey, a coercive control podcast. Her mission is clear: to help survivors recognize the subtle, insidious patterns of control, support children harmed by abuse, and equip parents and allies to protect those most vulnerable. Let's welcome Dr. Coachola inside the Wellspace.
>> Thank you so much for that lovely introduction.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> Yeah. But thank you.
>> You're a little bit overwhelmed hearing about all the great work you do.
>> I don't know. But yeah,
>> you are iconic in this realm and it is a vast massive realm of reality that you know a lot of people just aren't aware of, don't know about. And thank you for beating the drum about it and just being relentless around educating people. Can you please tell us about your work? Tell us about how you got into it and talk to us about what coercive control is.
>> Absolutely. I think it's important to share my history because if I missed the signs and I've been doing this work since the age of 19 and I educate college social work students every single semester on the power and control and post-sepparation abuse wheel. If I miss the signs and I'm a therapist, then it's reasonable that many people miss the signs. I am in no way trying to insist that I might have more intellect in any way. This is how insidious this abuse can be.
>> It is.
>> And we don't notice the signs. And I believe, as you mentioned, my podcast, I believe victims are perfect prey. That predators prey upon certain people and that the people that they prey upon typically are highly giving in relationships. They work hard. They're agreeable. And these are the places where predators can start boundary shifting.
>> And it happens to so many people. To your point, it's an epidemic.
>> I think people are not understanding. It is literally the underpinning of virtually all abuse because abuse is always about power and control.
>> It's not about, you know, right? Abuse isn't about hitting the person. It's about power and control. Even even when children are abused. I've worked in child welfare. I've worked as a CASA volunteer in the family courts. The reality is is that people who are exerting power and control over others are doing so because it's a personality trait.
>> Yeah.
>> That in some ways there is no real ability to change that very often sadly. Umad and yeah and sadly that's the big part.
>> So, like common thread, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly. Exactly. Why did I stay married to someone for 27 years and 11 months? Started dating him when I was 16. Went through all the phases of course of control. When you think about narcissistic abuse, course of control, it's love bombing. It's all these beautiful amazing feelings and then over time eroding away my autonomy and then my knowing why did I stay? As I talk about in my TEDx, because we know it's going to get worse and I knew it would get worse when I left. And so I stayed because I didn't want to believe he was as bad as he was and my body certainly felt frightened to acknowledge that. So,
>> yeah. And that's it though. You you bring up so many great points in that when you're in it and you're going through it, you often can't see it because you you you so imshed in the power and control dynamic. You mentioned something interesting which was boundary shifting. What is that?
>> Yeah. So the way that I think about course of control, if we're like to truly define it, it's about one person or group of people exerting power and control over another in an attempt to take away that person's autonomy, their agency, their ability to really know what they should know. And so that's why it's never historically or typically a punch in the face.
>> Because that would immediately feel like a boundary crossing, wouldn't it?
>> Yeah. And you could tangibly say, "Do not hit me. You have crossed a line." But the other stuff, this insidious stuff.
>> That's right. That's right. And so abusers will often use physical violence, but that isn't typically their primary tactic.
>> And so what abusers will do is slowly over time, you may have had, you know, a wonderful group of friends and slowly over time now you have two friends. Now they didn't take away all your friends at once.
>> Right.
>> Right. It's it's the boundaries. It's the slow shifting away. And what I always say and Dr. Stark used to say this is that it's a liberty crime because what's happened is I had x amount of freedom. I had this amount of freedom around me. And slowly over time that freedom box got much smaller and I got smaller. And so Bidderman talks about this when he talks about the coercion chart where he investigated prisoners of war and the idea that an adult, you know, a strapping young man who was taken as a prison uh as a prisoner during totalitarian communist regime that this person could actually slowly over time lose their voice simply with intermittent reinforcement, some good experience. experiences, whether you're throwing a prisoner maybe a blanket for one night or a piece of bread, all of a sudden we see people going from "I did not share enemy secrets with anyone" to "you're absolutely right, I did." And so that's the shift that happens with prisoners of war and we know it happens in the intimate relationships. That's why it's called intimate terrorism because it is it's terrorism over time.
>> It is terrorism over time. And you know, you were talking about it too with the So, as we're educating people, right, on what this is, you mentioned something called the power and control wheel that you share with your people, you know, your students. I used to share it when I worked on the domestic violence hotline because people who are in the middle of it don't necessarily know the words, right? And don't know that they're necessarily seeing it, but the minute you look at the wheel and you say, "Oh, yeah, that's happening to me." Do you find that that is the case?
>> Well, it's interesting. I was teaching on the power and control wheel for over well I've been teaching there for over 22 years but I probably was teaching on it for over 15 or so years and it never clicked for me until one day it did.
>> How amazing is that though? So So you I mean really that let's get into that. Tell us what happened for you.
>> I thought there was something wrong with me.
>> Mhm.
>> I thought that I was maybe hard to get along with or that maybe I had gone out with my girlfriends one too many times this month or that my maybe I was obsessed with running when I only ran like four times a week and I loved it and it brought me so much joy. Like you see if you have if you have an equal relationship dynamic with someone, they support the things that you love.
>> People ask me all the time, what would you say are like what are the number one signs of abuse? And I would say that when someone uses a vulnerability against you, something that you love, something that matters to you or something that's been painful, something that has felt like maybe you had a pained relationship with a girlfriend and they bring it up and then they all of a sudden blame you or they talk about it in a way that is hurtful.
>> And for me, I just kept thinking if I go to therapy, I must have too much anxiety. Well, I had anxiety because I was in a in a complex trauma and so I must have too much anxiety or I'm really depressed. I'm going to go on anti-depressants. And then what would happen? That vulnerability I'd be it'd be used against me if I was on the anti-depressant. It would be used against me if I had decided to go off the anti-depressant.
>> You just win, right? That's the whole point is that using that against me instead of saying, "Hey, I'm noticing a change. Let's talk about it. Maybe there's something I can help you with."
>> That's that's real like affection and mutuality in a relationship. And when I say affection, I'm not talking about physicality, right?
>> Yep. Yep.
>> So, one day I'm just looking at it and the whole psychological tactics, right? The put downs, the diminishing me as a mother, the counterparing. All of the sudden it was like, "Wait a minute. He's using telltale signs of abuse except for the physical violence, right?"
>> And you know what? I'm gonna tell you something that I just remembered recently.
>> Tell.
>> Literally last week.
>> Yeah.
>> I remembered the one physically violent episode. We were first married and there was an argument and I um had a bruise, a a welt on my face.
>> No.
>> And I had forgotten about that for the last I mean really 30 years I had forgotten about it. So the point is is because he figured out of course that if he did that again if he didn't re that in that I was going to be much more likely to walk out the door.
>> Right. How do you remember how you handled that at the time?
>> I remember that I probably was blamed for instigating it.
>> Of course. Yeah.
>> Right. Yeah. Because it was your fault. So the disassociation is still there, right? There'll be memories that pop up and and that's why when I work with clients, I often say you actually have to write a retraumatization list.
>> Like what's that? Cuz that sounds like something I should do.
>> We should all do it by the way. But okay, so what is that?
>> I think I think we all should do it. Dr. Romney calls it her icky the icky list, but it's lit. I think it is retraumatizing.
>> Okay.
>> And it's a list of all of the horrible things this person has done to you because you don't want to remember them. It's too painful.
>> So, the purpose of that is just to get it out of your head and your and your body and like write it down and then get rid of it.
>> No, you don't get rid of it.
>> You keep looking at it.
>> Oh, you do?
>> You keep looking at it to remind yourself that wait a minute, two months. He did call me an FNC word when he was angry and he hasn't done it in two months but he did it again today.
>> And so now there is a pattern.
>> Yes. Oh yes.
>> Right. And so, no the idea behind it is that as you know victims often disassociate from the bad as I just explained with my own experience. And I would be reading this power and control wheel at on the on the whiteboard. I wouldn't say oh that's me. Until I did, right? And and even then it took me years to escape. I didn't leave then. I kept hoping because of the trauma bonding because I was trauma bonded to him. I was just going to say that's why the retraumatization list is so vital, right? Because you actually can you're learning you're learning about your situation while you're doing it. I think it sounds very smart actually as a as a thing to do for your own self when you wake up to something and say like, "Okay, I'm going to try and not try. I mean, I am actually going to line list everything that happens for me so that I can not only sense a pattern, but remember cuz you forget, right? The brain's number one job is to keep us safe. And if the brain thinks we're in danger with that abuser, the brain's going to the brain's going to turn that off. The brain's going to make you not remember the horrifying experiences. And then the big question is is when you write these things down, if these things were happening to your mother, your sister, your friend, your daughter, right? Would you pretty clearly know that they should run? They should that they should run yet because it's happening to you, right? you're accommodating and so yeah to the point the brain actually has a neurological response and it does become trauma bonded to the to the moments of good to the experiences of and hopes hopes right to your point the the people that are chosen by these these afflicts are those of us who are you know empathetic giving you know we want to work it out you trust you love you give, you know, you've given your whole heart everything, right? And then Yeah. So, you're you are perfect prey.
>> Well, yeah. And that never means it's your fault. And a lot of people will put a lot of therapists, frankly, will say, "Well, you you're codependent and or you have self-esteem issues." We hear these misnomers oftentimes and it's not to suggest that victims maybe don't have some self-esteem issues or maybe a little codependent, but that's not the reason why they're being abused.
>> No,
>> the reason why they're being abused is because someone chose them.
>> Correct.
>> And decided to abuse them, right?
>> And that is very different than saying you're in an abusive relationship because you're codependent. Right? And that's hugely problematic when therapists and other helping people, people who think they're being helpful, actually do that because that blames the victim. And the reality is is that these people are sinister.
>> These people have malevolent intent.
>> Yes. Do they think they have malevolent intent?
>> I think that many of us in the field believe they know exactly what they are doing.
>> Yeah. I I kind of think that I do. I mean, I'm not, you know, deep into it as you are, but I I think people generally know what they're doing.
>> I think it's a coping mechanism for their personality. The coping mechanism is to exert power and control over every aspect of their life so that they actually can feel better. Now, how they do that, yeah, how they do that can be a variety of ways, right? I mean, you know, Dr. Ramy and I often talk about the fact that her clientele are dealing with the narcissistic abuser who might be on a scale of 1 to 10, a five or a six. I'm dealing with the people who have exes when the moment that this is like not all narcissists are are course of controllers, but all course of controllers are narcissistic abusers, right? And the pathology is a 10. It's a it's a s they go into the dark tetrd of personality traits. And your listeners might be saying, "Oh, my my husband's not that. He's not that way." Well, let me ask you. If you decided to leave that person, if you decided to escape that relationship, would they try to make you pay in some way to hurt you? And if that's why you're staying, then yes, they are that harmful. They have malevolent intent and it's part of their coping, but there's no excuse for it.
>> Right. Right. No, there isn't. Absolutely not. Wow. You you mentioned that you're a professor? Is it all social work, college students, graduate students? How where is your what's your world?
>> Yeah. So, I teach students who are beginning in their social work degrees. I teach again every semester on this particular concept.
>> Great.
>> And the pathology of how these things show up in relationships. And I also run an intimate partner violence program at the college where I teach so that students have more exposure because what we know is uh girls between the ages of 16 and 24 are suffer intimate partner abuse at almost triple the national average.
>> Wow.
>> So there's that beginning phases of relationship dynamics when you're younger where there could be some immaturity. Yeah.
>> Right. Certainly.
>> but that these experiences and and and it's the number one killer for women of color between the ages of 15 and 35. That to me is is the most remarkable statistic because this is, you know, the number one killer.
>> God, isn't it mindboggling though when we think of these stats? It's it's mindboggling to me. And even, you know, the stat that we throw around all the time is one in four women will be in an abusive relationship in her lifetime. And that's only a stat gleaned from social services and police reports, right? I mean, that's so that says, you know, it's probably I don't know, double, triple, much higher.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> There's another really fantastic statistic, and the reason why I like to highlight it is because it's it's basically I think it's I think it's might might be one in three. It's like 35% of women suffer violence in their lifetime. Physical or sexual violence.
>> Yeah. And so the question becomes if 35% so you know for your listeners 35 people out of 100 are women that are women right are suffering this how many are suffering other abuses that are not physically violent right exactly and that's got to be 70 children right and now we're talking about the intergenerational trauma that is so preventable that is so awful though it's that is awful I'll see that is the that's the big sort of nugget in all of this. I I I I think for you know at least from my perspective is as a mother and you know you mentioned you stayed for a while. Was that because of the children? Was it because you were afraid? Like what was it for you that kept you there longer?
>> Yeah I think I thought I could fix it to your point earlier about our personality traits. There's research out there that affirms that victims and survivors rate very high in the Big Five personality test in agreeableness and conscientiousness.
>> Okay?
>> And conscientious people tend to be fixers. They want to make things work. So I think I I wanted to make things work. I didn't want to pull a divorce felt like an F in life to me. I'm I grew up Catholic. My parents have been married 64 years this month. They're a beautiful, happy couple. As I again talk in my TEDx, I I didn't know the red flags in an abusive relationship. I'd only seen green flags.
>> So, how would I know what a red flag even looked like? And we don't teach people what the red flags are. But in my particular case, there was a lot of counterparing. And I did not know. I couldn't put my finger on it.
>> What is counterparing? What is that?
>> Yeah. So, you know, hey, you know, you're almost 16. and it's time to get a little part-time job, you know, because I want you to learn like responsibility and autonomy and budget and all the normal things we hope we teach our children. And then the other parent would say, "Oh, you don't need a job. Don't worry about it." Now, in the meantime, yeah, the other parent wasn't contributing their fair share to the family household, and I was working not only a full-time job, but also two little part-time jobs. So, it was easy for that person to say, because that person didn't have to worry about it, I was going to cover the differences.
>> Right. Right. And so that kind of thing, it was definitely a lot around like even silly things like it's time to clean up after dinner. We all help out, right? And then there would be the other parent would go into he would go into the other room and start watching a TV show and relaxing and he would woo my youngest in to watch with him their favorite TV show. So she would get off the hook of doing any cleaning and if I tried it would become an argument, right? And so, you know, what I ended up finding out, the the story for me is that when I did finally escape, I received 3,000 harassing, threatening emails over the course of 13 months when I was living in a spare room upstairs. And then when I finally got my own apartment because he locked me out of our family home. So, I left with the items in the trunk of my car. And I had a 17-year-old who had been watching and been being conditioned for years and years and years. I had no idea until an incident happened between she and him and she was texting me help and I respond and I have to call the police and the next day we're talking about how did this happen? What happened to our family? And she said it started when I was nine.
>> Really?
>> And she could identify she could identify it. She could tell you and say he did X Y and Z. And so what for our people who were educating and and sharing and maybe they're saying, "Huh, this really sounds familiar to me. That behavior after dinner is totally what happens." And the the condescension, etc., etc. What what are the tangible things she said started to happen? That's red flags. What are the red flags?
>> Yeah. So, another red flag is mockery. Abusers like to hide. Right.
>> Right.
>> They It's just a joke. You're so sensitive. Oh god.
>> Yeah.
>> The when they call you too sensitive, right? And the mockery tends it's the lowest form of humor and they love to use it and then they engage other people in it especially like they'll engage the children in it like mom's too sensitive or I love like they they'll say mom is very controlling when they're the controlling one or they'll say right or or dad. I mean this can happen to father. Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Those little cutting comments that are just like and if you call them out on it then you look like the idiot you know when you're like don't don't say that. That's not offense. That's offensive to me. You then it's you make a thing you make a thing happen now.
>> That's right. That's right. It's death by a thousand paper cuts, right?
>> Yes, it is actually. Yes. And when do you call out that paper cut? So, what are some what are some other red flags that we should be that the our community should be aware of that are so right there?
>> Yeah. I mean, I want to be really cautious and let everyone know that these abusers do not show up often times sometimes as extreme.
>> And so, it's not going to be a wo that was abuse, right?
>> It's going to be a pattern of diminishing you. And so, that would be the journal I would want you to start. You know, on a scale of 1 to 10 today, how diminished did I feel in my home? Hm. On a scale of 1 to 10, how diminished did I feel at that family event?
>> Right.
>> On a scale of 1 to 10, dinner out with friends, did he bring up the time that you burnt the casserole and like laugh when he knows you're super sensitive about it because reasonably so you were embarrassed?
>> Yeah.
>> That's a vulnerability, right? And so ask yourself, am I being actively diminished in an insidious way where even if I told my loved ones, they might be like, "Oh, come on. He's just joking." Right.
>> Right. Right.
>> And then the true the true test is, "What are you feeling in your body? Do you have to walk on eggshells? Are you consistently wondering if this was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do?" And of course, as we always say, I mean, you know, if I would if I were to truly unpack course of control, it's psychological tactics, it's financial tactics, it's legal tactics, it's sexual abuse, it's physical abuse, and it's it's weaponization of children. And I can guarantee that if you are leaving someone like this, they've already been weaponizing the children since day one. You just didn't know it. That's number one. Number two, the psychological tactics just get worse over time. They're going to begin gaslighting and manipulation and you're going to start questioning yourself. The financial abuse, it could be that you're like me. I mean, my my my brother used to call me the cash cow. I worked extra hours to make, you know, us to have us be able to go on wonderful vacations, but he wasn't contributing his fair share. If I brought it up, it was an argument. So, I decided it wasn't worth bringing up, right? And then the legal abuse usually is after you tried to leave. They use the legal system as another form of coercion and control. Yeah.
>> And that is a divorce industrial complex we call it. Like there's so much money to be made within the court system.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you know, as an aside back to my children, when my daughter told me that, I had caught him with cheating on me. We left for the weekend.
>> You and your daughter left for the weekend.
>> Me and my children, two children. We left for the weekend to my mom and dad's. He knew where we were. And he kept calling and harassing and saying, "I'm calling the police. you're kidnapping our children." And then in the meantime, this is before text, he's emailing me, "Let's go get therapy. We'll get better. I promise we'll get healthy." Of course, these are all the promises that I heard throughout.
>> Right. Yeah. Typical.
>> I decide to go back.
>> Okay. Yep. And that's also typical, by the way, because what's the stat? You go back seven times, right?
>> They say about seven times.
>> Seven times. And that's not abnormal. you know, this is because you're trying, you believe, you're hopeful, they say all the right things, and then it's that whole cycle of of abuse that happens.
>> It goes back, right?
>> It goes back. Yeah.
>> It does go back. Yeah. And so I went home.
>> Mhm.
>> I had to work that night and teach my college courses. And when I left when she at 17, she tells me when she was nine, she remembers the day and the hour that he said, "Your mom cheated on me. She's unstable. She's off her medication. You really can't trust her. Come to me for anything."
>> Oh my god.
>> And just know that I'm right here for you. Dad is always right here for you. And that was the beginning of the narrative. Now, before then, he was already undermining me. I mean, when I say the beginning, that's the overt conditioning.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it is like a cult.
>> Yep.
>> It is.
>> It's it's an indoctrination. We're in the cult. We try to get out of it. We realize what's going on and our children are still in the cult with the cult leader.
>> Yeah. So if you have a child who's saying, you know, "Dad says you spend too much money" or "Mom says that you're, you know, you're crazy," you know, again, I have male clients, many of whom are gay because this happens often times due to patriarchal norms and men have more power in society.
>> This is true.
>> This is true in every way. You touched on I'm gonna I'm gonna tangentalize that because you touched on financial abuse which is the really the number one reason women stay is financial abuse because that is an also an underpinning in abuse and that there could be a lot of other things going on but generally that's there too. Can you just talk a little bit about what that could look like for a variety of different socioeconomic you know environments?
>> Absolutely. Back in my days in working in child welfare, you know, moms would try to find boyfriends who could help them survive on welfare, right? Like I mean, when you're in a when you're living in poverty, having a partner who can contribute to your funds, of course, that's the truth for any single parent, but certainly for people living in poverty, right? And so, you know, there is a particular, you know, you might lose your home. And abusers will say this to stepchildren. and they'll say, "If your mother divorces me, you're going to lose your house." And so there's those types of and I would say that they are more covert threats. The victim realizes and so when you get into the family court system, it's why we wrote the book Framed Women in the Family Court underworld. I mean, it's a compilation of 22 stories of protective mothers. Typically, a man is the moneyed parent.
>> Yep.
>> And if you go into court and you you want to decimate somebody, the way to do it, right, is to make them go through the it's vex, we call it vexacious litigation. I'm going to keep you embroiled in the family court system, taking you back, not following through with court orders. I'm going to do all of these antics. That's why we have Jennifer's Law here in the state of Connecticut, named after two Jennifers that were murdered. One in particular is pretty unfortunately infamous, Jennifer Dulos. He had brought her back for over 400 filings in a very short time period. That's a red like big time red flag.
>> 10 filings is a red flag. Really? What was the judge thinking?
>> No.
>> Yeah.
>> That's that is that to me also is so so sad. And you know I remember when I was getting a divorce I my attorneys you know they said just avoid if you can avoid family court avoid family court just because it doesn't benefit women. It will not help. They just said it will not help you in any way, shape, or form. So, avoid it.
>> I love your attorneys. I have not heard that before.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> That is amazing. No, this is this is so one of I do I'm a therapist, but I also help people with parenting. They're these children who are so harmed, but also divorce and custody coaching because navigating the family court takes strategy.
>> Yeah. It does.
>> And navigating an abusive person who wants to make you like who wants to create pain for you, right? Who's trying to inflict pain? How do you get out and give them something that they actually think they've won? They've hurt you enough that they're willing to just take well and then like the song take the money and run, right? They're willing to take the money and run or they're willing to take the 50% custodial time rather than fighting for more time.
>> Mhm.
>> A lot of protective parents are like, "I I deserve child support." And I'm like, "Well, nobody's saying you don't deserve it, but if you can live without it, he's going to let go of the rope a lot a lot sooner, right? And you just what really what you want is peace, you know?"
>> Right.
>> You just want peace and safety, frankly. Safety.
>> You do. You do. And when and when you're engaged in the court process, something people don't think about is that every time you have a court hearing coming up, every time you file something cuz he's in contempt, every time you know they know you're going to court, the children are actually the abuser is tightening his grip on the children.
>> Oh, your mother, she's taking me back to court. Or, oh, your father, he's taking all of our money. Right.
>> And so the children are actually suffering more trauma in that process.
>> Mhm. Yep. Children are really that's let's let's can you just talk about this for the kids because when you think about abuse and and intimate partner violence domestic violence course of control that while not everybody is physically abused but physically abused in an abusive relationship but in any in in an abusive everyone is coercively controlled whether it's you know if you're in a physical am I make do you know what I'm saying am I making am I saying this clearly?
>> Perfectly. You're saying it perfectly.
>> Yes. So, course of control is literally there all all the time. So, and then it's between we think we assume it's the it's the the parents, but really the kids are affected like dramatically. Right.
>> Right. So, yeah. Historically, we called it they we said they were witnesses of or exposed to. And the reality is that if every time the gravel driveway or the driveway or the the car door closes and I know my dad's walking in the door, I know that I have to behave a certain way. And that is trauma. The trauma is that I never feel fully safe. I never feel like I can fully relax. Right? And that trauma begins to create manifestations of anxiety, a lot of anxiety in these kids, depression, self harm, the disregulated states. So if you're staying because you think it's healthier for your children, and there's no judgment, by the way, for staying because sometimes it does feel safer.
>> Yeah.
>> But if you are staying because of that, know that giving your child the gift of perspective, the gift of what it's like to be with you in your home, it's the first time in their lives they ever get to know the safe parent as the safe parent.
>> That's right. That's absolutely right. And that's that's it. It's it's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Like when you have space and peace and they can then realize what that kind of a home is like.
>> 100%. That doesn't mean it's easy, though.
>> Not because remotely.
>> No. Because part of the problem is is they're still living in the cult when they go over to that other house, right? They're still being coercively controlled in that other house. And they're now being used. And they were being used before, but now overtly being they were covertly being used the whole time, but overtly being used as weapons against you. So now you have this this mini weapon coming in, right? It's the abuser, but it's mini.
>> It's mini little baby weapon.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. A weapon in training, right? And then when you had been in that bubble together, you as the protective parent, it was like a triangle, you know, you could be a buffer, right? And you were absorbing like you're like the shock absorber of all any negativity that's coming at your kids and you can protect them. And I think that as a protective parent is something that keeps women specifically in relationships.
>> Sure. For a while.
>> I would right and I would say that there's an alternative way that these abusers abuse and that is that all of a sudden not all of a sudden but the the safe protective parent becomes the scapegoat.
>> Yeah.
>> So you don't you're not buffering the kids anymore. Actually the kids are teaming up against you.
>> Worst.
>> And now they're actually getting like literally trained to triangulate to cause harm, right? And that creates So I mean this is this is a whole another rabbit hole that we can discuss.
>> Let's go there. Let's do it. Yeah.
>> When children grow up in a safe envir unsafe environment and again psychologically unsafe, it doesn't even have to be physically unsafe, right? They are growing up in a home of coercive control.
>> Y.
>> The one thing the primary things the children need are a strong secure attachment to a safe protective parent.
>> Right.
>> An attachment gets fractured when I'm not feeling loved unconditionally.
>> Yep.
>> And when I can't authentically be myself. And in these family systems, I know the abuser doesn't love me unconditionally. And I see the abuser's love of my protective parent. And I know that is not safe. That does not feel good. Right.
>> Doesn't feel good. Right.
>> Right. So that's that starts to lay a foundation for me of of this unsafety. Right.
>> Right. In addition to that, I'm recognizing that I actually get love, not real love, but I actually get love from that other parent, the abusive parent, if I behave the way they want me to, right? So, if we're all going to be making fun of mom's dancing or the music she's listening to over there, I'm going to participate, right? And that's not really how I feel, but that's how I have to behave in order to be accepted by that other parent.
>> Yep. Got to play the game. And what that does is it creates shame in our children. They actually know that they're doing things that aren't truly their authentic selves aren't accepted, right? They're just not accepted. And so, and then the protective parent, reasonably so, being scapegoed, might be saying, "Why are you talking to me that way? How come you're making fun of me? You never used you used to like my music. You don't like it anymore." So, now we're what are we doing? We're adding to the shame.
>> Right? And then there's also then there becomes this friction between the protective parent and the kids that just was never there that is being caused by this other one like it's dropping a bomb into a good relationship and causing friction where absolutely right and it's that's calculation that's totally calculated.
>> It's malicious fracturing attachment.
>> Malicious fracturing of attachment.
>> That's what I call it. MFA. Malicious fracturing of attachment. Some people call parental alienation. Some people when the kids are older call estrangement. I call it malicious fracturing of attachment because it's really related to what every child needs from a clinical perspective.
>> Yeah.
>> And every child needs a strong healthy attachment. So the problem with all of this is that if I have a child who's already a little more has maybe some inborn traits, we know that these abusers were born a certain way, right? They maybe we have a child who has some of these traits and now living in this family system filled with inauthenticity. Inauthenticity, a lack of condition unconditional love, a building up of shame. How are abusers created?
>> Yeah.
>> That's how they're created.
>> Yeah. It's like it's it's grooming. They're being groomed by the abuser to repeat the cycle. So unless you you know we we talk about this is being aware of a cycle that's happening and then consciously breaking it right. So
>> 100%.
>> Question for you then about your children and your experience which you're very open about and thank you for that is you talk about your children going to the the unsafe parent you know being indoctrinated and now your relation now you have a relationship with them and you've worked on that for years right?
>> I'm I'm going to go back to your buffer um analogy that you were using like being a buffer.
>> Here's the problem.
>> When we are the buffer, they never get to see who the abuser really is.
>> Right. Right.
>> And if we we're I don't call it gaslighting cuz gaslighting has malicious intent. We're being protective.
>> Right.
>> So, you know, dad's coming home. Make sure your room's cleaned up. Or, well, daddy's just tired. That's why he didn't show up for the visit. Or he's working really hard. We make all these excuses for these abusers. And in that, we are literally disintegrating. I call it disintegrated intuition. We are taking away their their body's telling them something.
>> They feel it. Yeah. They feel it already. They know what's going on. They're not blind. Yeah.
>> They do. But we keep on we keep on suppressing that. He's suppressing it. The abuser is we'll say then we're suppressing it and then we wonder why. Like I have a 14-year-old now. He's probably 15 now. When he was 12, his father physically assaulted him and the police were called and he lived with his mother. Now this was a course of controller who had never been physically violent with the mother, but he was violent with this particular child at this time.
>> One time one time or always.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> One time.
>> Okay.
>> Police get called. Child goes to the hospital. Child lives with the mother. Guess who he's living with right now?
>> The father.
>> The father.
>> What? What happened? Why?
>> Well, it's like us. He disassociated from the bad. And the father had been luring him in over time, telling him his mother didn't really love him. This is the story my children received. It's like, your mom doesn't really love you. Your mom your mom prioritizes everything else. By the way, I'm working tons of hours, right? like your mom prioritizes everything else over you, you know. And that wasn't true, by the way. I was the one who was still managing the house and taking them to activities, but he was creating a false narative.
>> Yes. Yep. Yeah. It's exhausting, isn't it? I mean, like, it's like Yeah. It's It's a It's just Yeah. And they create this false narrative and these poor kids are caught in it and believe it.
>> It's I can't say it enough. I I want everyone to start to see the intersection between that and the cult world. You know, you think you're with someone who's good and kind and you think you're doing the right thing, but slowly over time you lose all of your ability to know what you should know. I I love Dr. Stark's I always quote him. It's uh the course of control is like carpenter ants devouring the foundation of a house. You don't even know what's happening till it's too late.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I love that too. Actually, you said that. Did you say that on your TEDx thing?
>> I think I did.
>> Maybe. I think you did. Yeah. I loved it. And I love the Evan Stark book, too. That's a that's a a bible of this really. There's just so much. And you know, you said something earlier which was interesting and important for people to note is that you said you came from a loving family. Your parents are still married. You saw only green flags yet this happened to you. So the reality is for everybody to be aware it really can happen to anybody.
>> Yeah. I think if you're if you're a person who's who's just open to relationships and somebody comes in and they're kind and loving and they're showing you all of these wonderful traits and sides of themselves, again, a pattern is one more than one. If somebody shows you once interesting that they have a behavior and they are not fully apologetic and they are not like taking responsibility and changing that behavior then there's a personality trait at play here and you're not going to change.
>> No.
>> You're not.
>> You can't change anybody right? I mean that's in we go into these marriages and you were so young too so that you add that into your situation. Being with somebody from when you're 16 years old, you are you are a lobster being boiled in a pot of water is what's happening to you.
>> Absolutely. There are so many signs in the seven years of dating. So many signs that I when you look back now, right? Yeah. You can see it.
>> And also feelings that you had feelings, right, that were your feelings. And and I I really I really love what you said about the icky list or the you know, the writing in town. But let's call it a Nikki list cuz that could make it sort of like you can laugh when you look at it almost and say this is really gross but I'm just going to do this every day almost and write down how do I love that? How do I feel on a scale from 1 to 10? Because then you are plugged into both your body physically and your emotions. You know how does it feel physically? How does it feel emotionally to me? What's going on right now?
>> That's right. What does you Because we shut off our body during these relationships entirely.
>> Totally.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's why many women have autoimmune illnesses because we're not actually listening to our bodies and there's so much harm that's occurring. For me, you know, I was retraumatizing. I had to put stickies on my mirror at my little apartment where I moved to that said he called you an effing cword 13 times.
On January 3rd. Like I had to actually write that down and look at it every day because of course I was getting the love, "Come back, we'll work it out," right? All of that going on too.
And so it is, it can be really, I, I caution as a, as a therapist, I just want to caution everybody, it can be traumatizing. But you're already, by the way, suffering trauma if you're in a relationship like this.
When you say it can be traumatizing, you're talking about making an icky list or making stickies that pointed out?
I'm just gonna keep saying that. No, but you know what? Yes, I agree with you. I think by nature, it's easy to get lulled back in because you want your family, right? I mean, who doesn't want their family? You know, you want as a mom and you've spent your whole life working to take care of these people and you're thinking you're doing the right thing. And then all of a sudden it's like, wow, it's, it's not that. If there's that glimmer of a possibility that you can have it, right? And they're coming to you and saying, "No, I love you. You're the best and you're, you're everything. You're my soulmate." I think you said like, "You're my soul. You're everything to me." And then, you know, flip to the effing c-words that are coming out too. Like, that keeps you right off your balance right there. So, you have to remember. You have to remember.
Absolutely. And if you think it from a scientific, uh, perspective, it literally, when you get the good moments, they can see on brain scans the oxytocin being ignited in your brain.
So your brain is actually having a neurological response to those good moments and drawing you back in because again, those good moments to the brain feel safer, right? The brain, the brain has a knowing that leaving and all of the feelings you're having are very scary and frightening. So, I'm going to hold on to the fact that he wants to go to dinner on Friday night. Maybe we'll go out to dinner one more time and just see how it goes. And then it goes well. And the brain is like, "Yes, you're safe. Everything's okay. We're going to stay in this, right?"
Yes. Yes.
Yep. And then indeed, new. And then something else you said too, which I think is important for people to just recognize is that the, the most statistically dangerous part of an abusive relationship is after you leave. Right after you leave.
Right.
We tell victims to leave all the time, yet it's the most dangerous time.
Yeah.
Yep. We ask them. And then what we do with children is we say, "Okay, Mom, why didn't you leave him?" But oh, wait a minute. Now your children are going to go with him. But I wrote a book called Every Moment of Every Day.
Yes.
And it's about a little boy and a little girl either don't want to go or they're coming home disregulated and they're frustrated. You see the little girl with kitty cat and a little boy.
Oh, honey. Yeah.
And, um, it's a story about how their, what their bodies feel like. Yeah.
And, and then because we're forcing them sometimes to go and they don't want to go. And so it's for protective moms specifically. And then how can the protective mother help the child regulate their body even though they have to force their child to go and how could they handle that return when they come home and they're, they're disregulated?
Yeah. To take it down, to take the, to take it all down. And to your point, and it's something for moms, you know, our, our crew that's watching to pay attention to is the anxiety that your kids might be manifesting and showing in different ways. That's just a sign. And again, the purpose of us talking is to just shed light on this and to, to reiterate to women, you're not alone. You're not crazy. This is real. And you know, when you say death by a thousand paper cuts and also just that that it's not like a huge flash of like abuse, it's lots of little things that just make you feel awful. Right.
That is right. That is right. That's right. And what is making you feel awful? And can you write that retraumatization icky list and just start writing out those things and ask yourself, if this was someone else you loved?
You know, how would you feel if they were in this relationship? If this was your child, how would you feel? And we can show our children a path out of this.
We can. And just quickly, I know because we are, we're going to just say goodbye in just a moment, but if there's something that a mom could do for her children around that, what would you suggest she, she do to show that path? So, I think it's definitely giving them clarity. If their body is telling them something doesn't feel right, sometimes our first response is, "It's okay, honey. Don't worry about it."
Rather than doing that, validate where they are. I can see this is hard.
I'm sorry. And giving them a hug if they want it and being there in that moment intentionally versus trying to fix it.
If we keep saying everything's okay, they're going to think everything's okay.
And that it's normal.
Yeah. And it's not.
Exactly.
That's right. Okay. So, in our very, very last moments, which makes me sad because I feel like I could talk to you for hours about this. I think we could. Is there anything you would like to leave our community with in regards to just coercive control? I know it's big. Is there anything you want her to walk away with thinking?
So again, listen to your body. I think that's very important. I think it's also, I really do. I hear wonderful things about my protective parenting program. People tell me it's a game-changer. If you're living in this, there's different ways to parent these children. They are suffering abuse and it's abuse unacknowledged. We have to have different strategies for handling behaviors. And so I highly, like, just recommend that you consider that this is a child. I, it's so hard, like, oh my gosh, my child's a victim of abuse. Yes. Let's just like, let's just recognize that that's possibly going on and then how would we intervene differently? And then also knowing that it's very important if you decide to separate or divorce or you're in that process, that you have someone who understands this as a therapist, as someone who understands the court system because I can tell you over and over again that people get blindsided by others in the field who don't understand coercive control.
They don't.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, good for you. Thank you. Thank you for your work in raising the consciousness and awareness about this for everybody. I mean, it's something that everybody should just know. So, really, thank you for taking the time and being with us. Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Inside the Wellspace. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Shake your elbows leaning into my left hip.