Is the Islamic Dilemma Destroying Islam? W/ Dr. David Wood

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[Music] How Christians relate to [Music] [Music] Yo, what's up everyone? Why would I be doing intro on your show? Very good question. I just like it when you say Tik Tok. Tik Tok time to rock. Oh. Start over then. Okay, we do. Here we go. Tic tac. Time to rock from the West Coast. Ladies and gentlemen, um I don't know. Well, we know your feelings about California because you put out that video yesterday and uh somebody sent me a message and said, "This guy just called us a boil and I can't wait to meet him." Did I? Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. I called Los Angeles a festering a festering puss boil. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. How do you feel like um being in the same state as Mike Winger? Well, that's uh that's the only good thing about California is a really big state. So, he can be on one side of the state, I can be on the other side of the state, and then I never have to see his stupid nerd face.

Okay. With Tell us how you really feel about him. Much like I feel about the city of Los Angeles. Um David, uh we we have an event tonight. Uh now you're going to be speaking about something a bit different at the event tonight, but uh we thought we'd do the stream and um and speak about the Islamic dilemma. The question we're trying to answer is, is the Islamic dilemma destroying Islam? Your take.

The Islamic dilemma is one of the main things that's destroying Islam right now. Um, what's been destroying Islam for a while has been Muslims finding out about uh what Muhammad was really like and not what they're told he was like by a bunch of people who were watering him down. Um, so anyway, for people who don't know, the Muhammad you tended to hear about in, you know, from da'wah guys or in mosques and so on in the West. Now, there are obvious exceptions because we've seen the clips where people are preaching some seriously messed up stuff, but generally, generally you get a watered-down, whitewashed Walt Disney version of Muhammad that has uh very little connection to the Muhammad we read about in Islam's most trusted sources. And um Muhammad Hijab several years ago did a poll and he asked Muslims, he asked Muslims, "When you doubt Islam," so he's not talking to Muslims who never doubt. He says, he's talking to doubters, "When you doubt your religion, what is it that's causing those doubts?" And the number one answer by far was uh moral problems. Moral problems with Muhammad because they're told all their lives, Muhammad is this perfect guy and he's great in every way and so on. I have I have all kinds of books on my shelves that are filled with just how awesome and wonderful and uh he's he's just great in every way this guy is. And they never hear about what Muhammad was actually like according to their sources. Their sources have been like cherry-picked, completely misrepresented. And when they find out what their sources actually say, they're pretty repulsed by them. And at first, they'll just think you're lying. And then you keep showing them sources and then they think, well, okay, maybe there's some sources that say this, but there are other sources that say the opposite. And then you keep telling them, "Go find them for me," and they never can. And they keep going to their imams and so on and asking, getting explanations for all the stuff Muhammad did. And uh this can take a while, but eventually they realize, "My goodness, is this the guy I'm going to trust my eternity with? This guy, the guy who had sex with a prepubescent nine-year-old girl, took the wife of his own adopted son after causing the divorce by lusting after her. Guy who bought, owned, sold, and traded black African slaves. um guy who uh got caught in his wife Hafsa's bed with his slave girl and this enraged them not because he was having sex with a slave girl that was uh that was considered entirely appropriate, but they were enraged that he was doing it in their own beds, right? Like, what? I go out errands, I go running errands, and you jump into my bed with some slave girl rolling around with her. He got mad about that. So Muhammad swore an oath. He swore an oath by the great god Allah, I will never never have sex with that slave girl again. And then Allah's response is in Surah 66:1-2 where Allah tells him that it's okay. He wants him to go ahead and break that oath. And so Muhammad gets a special revelation telling him to break his oath that he made to his wives. And so anyway, the point is that the Muslim sources are filled with this sort of thing. And Muslims never hear about this. If they hear about it, they hear about it from us. And the thing is, once they hear about it from us and then they hear about it from us again and they hear about it from us again, they they eventually realize, wait a minute, these guys just aren't the my leaders just aren't telling me the truth.

So So that's the question I have like in in you've been doing this for such a long time and dealing with the sources, dealing with people who are arguing against you or even just Muslims who are inquisitive and stuff like that. Do you think it's intentional that your average Muslim doesn't know these things? Meaning imams know it and they kind of hide it from the average Muslim or is it that the imams don't know it themselves and it it's just kind of like in history and if you research it and if you're if the if you're dedicated to become a scholar then you'll discover it and so you're like average person doesn't find out about it and then now we have kind of the rise of the internet and and these things being digitized for a long time people couldn't even access these things in English. Um, but these things being digitized and people can access it, search it and all those things where it's kind of brought it to the surface and it's uh like Muslims are confronted with their own doctrines and it will so I'll say that answer that and then we'll get into the different sorts of Muslims and how they deal with this stuff.

Yeah. So basically for 14 centuries, Muslims could Muslim leaders could keep their people insulated from hearing criticisms of Muhammad. You get your head chopped off if you started uh criticizing Muhammad and could also keep their people insulated from hearing a serious presentation of an alternative to Islam. So if you start preaching a non-Muslim religion in a Muslim uh area, then they're going to Okay, today is a day and we're back. My Wi-Fi just went out randomly. Uh we we have stories to tell for today, but uh we'll keep that later. Okay, continue continue that thought.

Okay, so the the leaders have kind of any criticism of Muhammad has been responded uh to with violence essentially because you really can't criticize Muhammad. Yeah. And so and and so the the result is that um over the centuries you just have Muslims living in this bubble where they're never going to hear a word of criticism against Muhammad uh or against anything the Muslim leaders are saying about Muhammad. And so Muslims would spend their entire lives thinking all these wonderful things about Muhammad and they never encounter anything else. And uh eventually we get down to basically the past couple of decades when now all of a sudden we have we have open access to their sources, the Quran and the Hadith and the Sahih Bukhari and so on. We have open access to their sources and we can go through and refute all the lies that they've been told. And I mean, keep in mind, your your average Muslim, he don't even know he's been lied to all his life. He doesn't know. Um, the sheikhs know. The sheikhs know, but the average Muslim doesn't know. And so it it's kind of left to us because they're not going to they're not going to hear this material even though it's all over their sources. They're not going to hear this from their scholars.

Not is it because they don't read? Is it because they don't read those sources? They do not read those sources. Okay. So they read the let's just say your average Muslim reads the Quran. He doesn't read the Quran either. Okay. They don't read the Quran. So what what is the average I mean we can talk about like nominal Muslims where maybe I'm talking about I'm talking about Muslims who would even attend mosque every week and so on. They don't read the Quran. Have no clue what's in the Quran. Why is that?

Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Um, you would think, and this is what I once thought, that because you see them going to the mosque and um they're taking the pilgrimage, they're going to Mecca and so on. They're reciting their prayers. You think, "Oh, they're very, very knowledgeable about their religion." And that's just false. Their practices are um are made a habit all their lives. So they know their basic practices, they know their basic prayers, they know their basic recitations, they know those kinds of things. When it comes to anything outside of those basic practices, the average Muslim has no clue what he's talking about. So yeah, I once thought that Muslims were like more knowledgeable of their religion than like other people in other You would assume so. Yeah. Yeah. Because again, you see, hey, we're dressing a certain way. They're all heading to the mosque and so on. Uh, but that it was actually like and early on the Muslims I was interacting with were knowledgeable Muslims like Nabil and so on. So I'm talking to people who like study this stuff and so that's my impression of Muslims. Then I would go do a debate and I would end up talking to like a dozen Muslims afterwards and sitting out there uh with a bunch of Muslims and they're saying all kinds of things and then they but what they're saying made no sense from their sources. And so they'd say something I go, "What do you do with this verse?" And they would have no clue what I was talking about. Or they'd say this and I go, "What are you what are you talking about? What your the Quran says the opposite of that. Here's the verse. Show me any verse that says what you're saying." They have no clue what I was talking about.

And I mean, it was just it was standard. And so I kind of figured it out over time, but you have these warnings in the Hadith against the the sin of bid'ah. That's that's innovation. You're coming up with your own interpretation. You're coming up with your own way of doing things. That's a that's a one-way ticket to hell according to Muhammad. Muhammad said, "Every innovator goes to hell." So if you're coming up with your own interpretation, your own way of doing things and so on, you are a horrible sinner in Islam. So you've got that. In addition to that, you have verses like Surah 4:65 of the Quran where Allah says that Muslims can have no real faith. They're not even real Muslims. Muslims can have no real faith until they make Muhammad judge in all disputes and accept all of his decisions and have absolutely no resistance against anything Muhammad has decided. So you can't have real Islamic faith. You're not a real Muslim unless you just like mindlessly accept everything there is to accept about Muhammad. So if Muhammad has sex with a prepubescent girl, you are not allowed to have any kind of resistance to that behavior. If you do, you're not a real Muslim. So you have things like that early in Islam, but the way they play out over the centuries is, okay, I'm not allowed to deviate even slightly from what Muhammad says, and I'm not allowed to come up with my own interpretation of something. If I come up with my own interpretation of something, I'm going to hell. Well, if you just read the Quran and you don't know all the historical backgrounds from the Hadith and so on, you haven't read the commentaries and so on. Um, what are the odds that you're going to come up with your own interpretation of something and come to some wrong interpretations? 100%. You're going to get something wrong. And guess what? Even if you read the Quran 10 times, if you don't know the historical background and so on, you do not know how to how to uh understand this book.

So, so there are Quran-only Muslims. This is what I was trying to get to with different kinds of Muslims. So not all Hadith are accepted by all Muslims. Like Shia will reject a bunch of Hadith. Quran-only Muslims are like, "No, man. You guys are off the rocker. We got to go only with the Quran." How how would you respond to these sorts of movements? Uh like, "No, no, no. You guys got it wrong." Cuz I know like certain Sunnis will look at Shia and be like, "Hey man, you guys are like a cult because you know you guys sing and music is allowed and various things of this sort." So, how would you respond to these guys in saying, "No, as a Christian apologist saying, you have to, you're kind of obligated to accept these Hadith." Um, and and then the ones who say who are Quran-only to say, "No, you guys are wrong. You got to accept these Hadith."

Yeah. Well, um, any of these groups would have an advantage and a serious problem for them. So the advantage of being a Quran-only Muslim is you don't have to deal with all the weird, creepy, violent, perverted stuff in the Hadith. You say, "I don't believe in that." Uh, so you actually, if you're if you're talking to someone and they claim to be a Quran-only Muslim, "Hey, I only believe in the Quran." You have to be careful because most of the time it's not a real it's not really a Quran-only Muslim. It's a Muslim who just doesn't want to have to defend what uh his prophet did in the Hadith. Uh, but there are serious Quran-only Muslims. So if you find out you're dealing with a a serious Quran-only Muslim, um, he has again, he has the advantage. He doesn't have to defend one big giant mess that you find in the Hadith. But they have other kinds of uh problems like there are passages in the Quran. You can't know what you can't understand what these passages mean without the historical background, without understanding the objection or question that Allah is actually responding to. There are people in the Quran. If you don't know who they are because of outside sources, the stories make no sense. Okay. Yeah. And so, uh, there are those kinds of issues, but also um, as I mentioned, Surah 4:65 says that you can't be a real Muslim unless you submit to all of Muhammad's decisions. Well, guess what? The Quran isn't Muhammad's decisions. You'd be considered a heretic if you said the Quran is Muhammad's decisions. Um, so where are Muhammad's decisions found? Well, those are found in the Hadith. And so it's like you can't even obey the Quran without going to the Hadith. And then you have in Surah 33:21, that's where Allah declares that Muhammad is the pattern of conduct for Muslims. Well, the Quran, I mean, the Quran only mentions Muhammad by name four times. You're not getting you're not getting the con, you're not really getting Muhammad's conduct. I mean, the Quran is talking about Abraham and Moses and all these things and just constantly complaining about unbelievers and so on. You get Muhammad's conduct in the Hadith. And so here again, you can't even obey the Quran, it seems, without um going to the Hadith. Now, to be fair, um Quran, real Quran-only Muslims will um will respond to those kinds of things and say, "Well, that's here's what these things really mean." And so on. Uh, but they still have a problem. They still have a problem. That's the reason it's such a tiny minority position over the centuries. Uh, you don't even know you don't even have basic Muslim practices. And by the way, that's how you can spot a fake Quran-only Muslim. Someone says, "I'm a Quran-only Muslim." Say, "Oh, how many times a day do you pray?" If they say five, guess what? Five is Hadith. Five is Hadith. The Quran only refers to three prayers. Uh, you can say, "What do you say in your prayers?" If they're given prayers from the Hadith, then you're you're dealing with someone who's pretending to be a Quran-only Muslim.

Can can you develop an argument that uh like like sort of a historical argument against the Quran-only Muslim by saying hey look you're not like in the early stages of Islam like in the early stages people are using the Hadith and they're using them authoritatively you're kind of deviating from that um yeah they no they just have a problem and you kind I mean the Quran is is basically incoherent um so the the principle of the Quran the fundamental the basic principle of interpreting the Quran is abrogation that certain commands that came later um can cancel or abrogate earlier revelations. Well, the Quran's totally out of order. Y and so you can't know what abrogate what without going outside of the Quran. And so you just have you're always needing to go outside of the Quran. How do you even know how the Quran was put together? How do you even know like you don't know any of this stuff without outside sources? And so, uh, you can have Quran-only Muslims and you're you're you're always going to have Quran-only Muslims because there are always going to be Muslims who think we do not want to have to defend what is in these sources because it's really really terrible. But the uh that the serious ones the serious ones actually and I had it explained to me by um a Quran-only Muslim I debated um act it's actually the the core idea basically makes sense. He said, "If if the mailman comes to your door and he delivers you a letter from, let's say, the king of some country, you don't start building your life around the mailman, right? This the mailman. You you have a letter from the the king. That's what's important. The mailman's just the guy who delivered it. You don't start building your life around the mailman. That makes no sense. Why? He's the guy who handed it to you. So if Muhammad is just the messenger, Allah has his eternal speech and Muhammad just hands it to you. You don't start building your entire life and religion around Muhammad. That's exactly what that's exactly what Muslims did. They built their entire lives and and religions uh religion around Muhammad. Far more so than about anything that's actually um about Allah. So yeah, Muhammad is the center center of that religion.

Okay. So now with all that said, let's let's kind of dive into the Islamic dilemma. This is something that you and others um Mike Jones from Inspiring Philosophy, Avery uh from God Logic amongst others have been putting a lot of effort and energy into. And I know you're you're pushing that, right? There's like a cohort of folks that are focusing on this and making different videos of really pushing out the Islamic dilemma. Why don't you in in just like some simple terms explain what the Islamic dilemma is um for people who might not know uh about it?

Yeah. So, um, you you were mentioning whether you were asking earlier whether the Islamic dilemma is, uh, basically crushing Islam, and I said, well, there's been other things that have been crushing Islam for a while. So, I mentioned, uh, moral problems and so on. That's been doing a lot of work over basically the past two decades um, shaking Muslims confidence in Islam. But uh so if you're trying to shake a Muslim's confidence in Islam, probably the best direction to go would be to learn some of these facts about Muhammad that are extremely embarrassing to Muslims. The Islamic dilemma is probably the best all-around argument, which is it's doing something else. It's a it's kind of a da'wah blocker. Muslims give their da'wah and they say they'll start off with, "Hey, Jesus is a Muslim." Or they'll say, "Hey, we love Jesus, too." And stuff like that. They'll start off those kinds of things. Um, hey, you believe in God? Yeah. Do you believe in submitting to God? Yeah, we believe in submitting to God. Islam is just the religion of submission to God. So, submit to God. You you should you should have no problem with this. So, they go with um we call it the da'wah script, but they have their their various ways of uh preaching Islam to people. Um, but if you're if you're a Christian and you actually know how to defend whatever you're claiming, in other words, if you say, "No, you're actually wrong. Jesus died on the cross for sins. He rose from the dead and he's Lord, and here I can show you right where the Bible says it." They have to say, they have to say your Bible's been corrupted. Otherwise, otherwise, why does why does the Bible contradict Islam? And so, uh, this is this is the best all-around argument for anything involving da'wah because they have to eventually say where whenever you disagree, they have to eventually say your book's been corrupted. And when once they when they finally say your book's been corrupted, then that's when you let them know they have all sorts of problems now. They have all sorts of problems because here's the thing. Here's here's the Islamic dilemma in a nutshell. Um, and it's a it's the same situation I mentioned before where Muslims don't know what's in their books. They only they have their information filtered for them by their leaders. And what their leaders have told them, the Quran says, is that uh Allah revealed the Torah, he revealed the gospel. He sent pro various prophets into the world, but everyone's messages were corrupted. And that's why everyone needs to go to the Quran because it's the only uncorrupted book. That's what Muslim leaders have been telling Muslims for decades that the Quran says. Problem is the Quran never says anything within a trillion miles of that. Not even close. It never says it. What the message you actually get from the Quran, the message you actually get from the Quran would go something like this. Allah sent prophets to every nation in the world. Different groups had different revelations in their own languages so that they can understand the revelations in their own language. By the time Muhammad comes, the Arabs were the only people that did not have their messenger. They're the only ones. So, he's the last messenger. That's why he's the seal of the prophets, right? It's not some Yeah. It's just, okay, now it's done. Now, it's done. They've now everyone has their revelation. Everyone has their book they're supposed to judge by. The Arabs didn't have one, and now the Arabs have one. And so, everyone has to judge by their own revelation. That's that's weirdly universalistic, isn't it? Well, it's um it but it's Muhammad doesn't seem to be aware of the fact that all these that these revelations contradict each other contradict each other, right? He thinks they're all he thinks they all say the same thing. So, he's saying, which makes sense for a guy who's uh illiterate and and doesn't know stuff. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know what he's saying, but he would get these categories confused and like, hey, Jews and Christians actually disagree on very important things. Mhm. Uh so he he doesn't have a concept of that. Just lumps them together as as people of the book. What book? And so Muhammad, he doesn't seem to have a good idea. They called him the ear according to the Quran. They call Muhammad the ear. Um whenever he'd come up with a story, they'd say, "Oh, we've heard this before. These are fables of the men of old." So, uh, Muhammad keeps coming up with I mean some of the stories were like on the level of bedtime stories and so on. And Muhammad is hearing them and passing them off as revelation and so on. So people keep making fun of him. Uh, but we the point is we know from Muslim so we even know from the Quran that one of the most common criticisms of Muhammad is he's just hearing stuff and copying it and then and then passing it off as Would these be like oral traditions in the region? Yeah. That that that's how I mean that's what you did back then. Didn't have internet or anything else. So what did you do? You sit around you sit around telling stories and stuff like that. You'd be really interested if some traveler comes along and he's got stories from wherever he came from and so on. Problem is there'll be some new traveler in town. He's sharing stories and then two days later Muhammad comes out, I have a revelation and it's the same story this guy uh just happened to be telling and so on. So um yeah, so the the the Quran does not say what Muslims have been told and trained to think that it says. And so here you have an argument where the Quran says the opposite of what your average Muslim has been told all his life. And it's a subject where we have tons and tons and tons of verses. We're not talking about one or two verses. We're talking about dozens of verses that affirm the inspiration, the preservation, and the continuing authority of the Torah and the Gospel. The scriptures are in the hands of the Jews and the Christians. And it's something that's always going to come up, right? It's always going to come up. If you're talking to a da'wah guy, if you're talking to a a Muslim friend and you he's telling you what he believes as a Muslim and you say, "Well, here's what I believe as a Christian." He has to get to the point where he says your Bible's been corrupted. The moment that h so 100% of the time you can lead right into this topic. A discussion is going to go right into this topic, which means you can be prepared for it with all the verses that confirm the inspiration, preservation, authority of our scriptures. And what's going to happen then? It's uh it's similar to a Muslim being told all his life that Muhammad is the greatest man who ever lived. And then he finds out, whoa, actual our sources don't don't line up with that nonsense at all. Similar to that, a Muslim has been told all his life, the Quran says the previous books have been corrupted. Actually finds out, oh, all the Quran ever does is affirm those books and sets them up as the divine authority even over the Quran itself. This is not what I've been taught. You're looking for a kind of light switch moment where the Muslim realizes, I seriously can't trust these guys who've been telling me about my religion all my life because they seem to be chronic compulsive liars and therefore I need to get out of not even necessarily get out of the religion at that point, but I need to investigate for myself and not just mindlessly trust what these guys uh what these guys say.

So, you made a comment about like the books that were like handed to us or before us or in our hands, I think is what you said. Isn't there some debate over that um kind of terminology of what that means?

Oh, if you're if you're talking about um No, I'm saying because the Quran repeatedly says that it's talking about what we have, what's in our possession and so on. I think you're referring specifically to to the phrase yadei and that in Arabic means between his hands and the Quran over and over. It it's basically that it can mean literally like if I like this would be like this is I have this glass by um um but it can also be an idiom but when it's an idiom it's still referring to something that's that's in its presence in your possession. Yeah. In its presence or in your possession, which again, you have you have Quran verses over and over again which specifically say Allah is affirming the scriptures that you possess, the scriptures that you have. So he's clearly talking about what we still have today. He's basically an extra point confirming that. So he's in other words, he's saying the same thing but in different in different words. Yeah.

So so so if the Quran is saying that um you know affirming the the text that the Christians and the Jews have, their argument would have to be that it's been corrupted since Muhammad till now. Somehow was fine till then and and and he's affirming them. But since then it's been corrupted which I think is a huge burden of proof based on like manuscript evidence because we have tons of stuff we can we can go back and look at.

Yeah. There's there's no way out of the Islamic dilemma. There's like like zero. So what what you're talking about is um once you go through the Quran verses showing that the that Islam affirms the inspiration, preservation, authority of the Jewish and Christian scriptures and yet contradicts those scriptures. Um your average your average Muslim doesn't believe that they were corrupted afterwards. The average Muslim believes they were corrupted uh earlier on. They'll say by the Apostle Paul or the Council of Nicaea or something like that. Okay. Yeah. They'll say they'll say things like that because they don't know what the Quran says. They don't know that the Quran is affirming the scriptures that are still around during the time of Muhammad. And so they're they that's just the the normal position to take. But yet once you find out that the Quran is affirming the inspiration, the preservation, and the authority of the scriptures that were still there in 7th century Arabia, then huh, how do I explain the fact that the Bible of today doesn't line up with the Quran? Oh, maybe it was corrupted since then. And the the problem with that is, as you just pointed out, we have copies of we have copies of the Torah and the Gospel from long before the time in many different languages that that including Arabic that we can compare and we'll know whether it's been changed or corrupted as as they would put it. And so um so so that's the dilemma. So if if they're affirming the text of the New Testament, but say the New Testament is denying things claimed in the Quran, now they're stuck in that dilemma. Then they can't get out because they're contradicting.

Yeah. People formulate the dilemma in a bunch of different ways and you can actually focus on particular issues and make little dilemmas like like what you were just pointing out. Okay. You say the Bible's corrupted before the time of Muhammad or after the time of Muhammad and either way either way you lose that they will lose that argument. And so you could that could be an Islamic dilemma. The way I normally put it is I say um that Christians we have a Bible. Uh there are two possibilities. There are only two possibilities. Either we have the inspired preserved authoritative word of God or we don't. So if we have something that's never never been the word of God, it was just made up. Or if we have something that's half the word of God or it's it was originally the word of God but it became corrupted and filled with false teachings and so on. Okay. Uh either we have the inspired preserved authoritative word of God or we don't. It's something else. Okay. And so those are the two possibilities. If we have the inspired preserved authoritative word of God, Islam is false because Islam contradicts what we have on basic fundamental doctrines and the most important doctrines in the Bible. The Quran contradicts them. Contradicts basic Christian doctrine drawn from the text. And if our texts are the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of God, Islam just falls apart. So that's one that's one direction to go. The other is um that the Bible isn't the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of God. If the Bible isn't the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of God, Islam is false because Islam affirms the inspiration, the preservation, and the authority of the scriptures that we have in our possession. And so, um, the there's two basic categories the Bible could be in. Inspired preserved authoritative word of God or something else. If it's the inspired preserved authoritative word of God, Islam is false. If it's not, if it's something else, Islam is still false. Either way, Islam is false. And so, that's that's the argument we've been pushing this year. And we've had multiple debates on them. All of them have gone awesomely. Um, we got lots of um lots of Christian channels and so on. uh everyone's learning the Islamic dilemma. And if if this if this continues, if people keep learning it, if it eventually if it sinks down more and more to just the level of common knowledge where everyone Muslims and non-Muslims are aware what the Quran says about the Bible, you have just da'wah is done. There is no more da'wah. You can't run up to you can't run up and oh, your Bible's been corrupted. That's why you need Islam. It will not work anymore. And so da'wah is cooked. So that's what we're working on.

Okay. So I it's so it's so good man. It's such a good argument. It's simple that like you you actually don't need to know much to present the argument. You do need to know some stuff. I don't want to say just be ignorant and get up there and get into conversations and debates with people. But my favorite part of it is actually uh the affirmation or uh you modern Muslims saying the Bible is not the word of God which makes Muhammad out to be a liar, right? That affirmation would make him out to be a liar. And and this is sort of slightly maybe maybe not so slightly but um compared to the way Muslims view inspiration and and I want you to speak into this because Christians and Muslims do not view inspiration the same way. And um so for example we in our Bibles characters in the Bible can say incorrect and wrong things, right? Like prophets do wrong things, which in Islam, prophets can never do wrong things, but prophets do wrong things.

No, no, they can. That that that was that changed in Islamic theology over this. Did it? Yeah. Matter of fact, little little fun little side note here. I didn't know this. This is new news for me. Teach me, David. So, originally originally, so one, Muslims can't say that that prophets never sin. They'll you'll still hear that. You'll still hear that from Muslims. That makes absolutely zero sense from an Islamic perspective. Muhammad is told repeatedly in the Quran itself that he needs to uh repent of his sins. In the Hadith, it was said that Muhammad would repent of his sins 70 times a day to seek forgiveness for Allah. Like what is this guy doing? 70 times a day, this guy has to please forgive me, oh Allah, please forgive me. So he sounds like a champion of sin. Um, so you had that sort of thing in the Muslim sources, but they u they had this doctrine. They have this doctrine called ismat al-anbiya. That's Allah's protection of the prophets. And originally, originally the doctrine meant that Allah will protect a true prophet from persisting in major sin. Right? Will. So the the doctrine originally meant that Allah will protect a true prophet from persisting in major sin. And so that kind of forced them already to think, okay, if Muhammad's repenting of sins, um, then I mean, it's going to be weird to think that these are major sins. Yeah. Like he's persisting in them constantly. So these must be minor sins, right? They're minor sins, not really important ones. And so, uh, that doctrine ran for a while that Allah would protect a true prophet from persisting in major sin. Eventually, it changed in the hands of the theologians. The doctrine changed to mean that Allah will protect a true prophet from committing any major sin. And so once again, Muhammad's Muhammad, he sinned, but you know, they were minor sins, not major sins. And that's when they had to throw out the story of the satanic verses. Um, you I have 50 Muslim sources on the satanic verses. We have a bunch of them go back to people like Ibn Abbas. Um, we know that. So the basic story of the satanic verse is that Muhammad wanted his followers to I mean wanted his his the people of his tribe who weren't Muslims. He wanted them to convert to Islam and but they were polytheists and they weren't and they were they didn't want to go along with him. So he was longing for a revelation from Allah that would convince his tribe to convert to Islam. And one day he got the revelation he was looking for. It said that in addition to Allah, Muslims can pray to three pagan goddesses, the goddesses of Muhammad's tribe. And they're like the uh it calls them the exalted cranes. They're bird. They're like birds, right? They carry your prayers up to Allah. So you don't have to talk directly to Allah way up there. And he doesn't have to come down uh, you know, in the watch of the night and and listen to your prayers. You can pray to the three pagan goddesses. They take your requests up to Allah. So Muhammad received this revelation. He bowed down in honor of it. and uh his followers bowed down in honor of it. And then the pagans even bowed down in honor of this revelation, which is shirk according to Islam. That's the worst possible sin. Shirk is the worst possible sin. So now you have Muhammad committing the worst possible sin. So you got a problem here, right? But think about this. Um, originally the story of the satanic verses um fit well fit it was fine in uh with the with the doctrine of Allah's protection of the prophets. Why? Because originally it means that Allah will protect a true prophet from persisting in major error. So you could commit major error. Allah is just going to protect you from persisting in it. Well, that's exactly what happens in the story of the Satanic Verses. Muhammad delivers these revelations. Everyone's happy. And then Gabriel comes along and says, "Hey, what what are you doing? That didn't come from that didn't come from me." And then Muhammad apologizes and said, "Satan tricked him. The devil made me do it." So that's a nice copout, by the way. Yeah. But that story, notice that story is fine for the first basically century and a half of Islam. It it's understood, okay, a a true prophet can be tricked by Satan into doing horrible things and then Allah will bring him out of it. Once they change their theology so that Allah's protection of the prophets means that Allah will protect a prophet from committing any major sin, you can't have your star prophet uh committing shirk and leading others into shirk and being a massive embarrassment. And so they just started scrubbing scrubbing the story from history.

Wow. Wow. It seems like he was very guilt-ridden just like on a human level. Like um if you get someone who who sins like even if you get a person who's like semi-aware of themselves and their sins um like they're not constantly sinning like you have all sorts of other things you're doing in life that isn't giving you opportunity to sin. For example, you know, whatever you're at work or uh for for five six hours and your mind's on on your work. Muhammad seems to be an individual who's like constantly guilt-ridden, but is also just like doing these things. Now, I would say predominantly seems like those things are sexual in nature. But not just that, like if we gather this kind of puzzle pieces and put it together and say what is the psychology of this individual? He seems to uh he seemed to have uh very low self-control. And uh people don't know why we would say that. You have these stories about Muhammad. So Muhammad would go out and he'd walk down uh he'd walk through the town and he'd see a woman and it would say is, you know, he was aroused and so he has to run home to one of his wives to have sex with his wives. And Muslims will look at that and say, "Oh, see he's doing the right thing. He's aroused so he runs to one of his wives." It's like, "Wait a minute. You but the guy can't walk down the street without becoming aroused. Like he can't walk by a woman and this would have been a pretty modestly dressed woman back in the day and he had just has to instantly oh my goodness I'm I'm I'm about to die here I have to get home to one of my wives because I saw a woman walking to like which would make sense why he's constantly guilt-ridden and why he's constantly repenting if you have extremely low self-control and you believe that God's going to judge you for everything you do uh yeah you'd be uh you'd you'd be pretty darn worried Now, what you can do in that situation is over time just make sure your God lines up more and more with whatever you want to do. And that's what you find out in Islam over and o more and more so as time went on. Allah had no purpose other than just confirming that everything Muhammad wants, Muhammad gets. Yeah. A good example of this seems to be um his uh the story with his adopted son that you know like adoption is fine. Yeah. And and then he's he yeah not anymore because you know I like your wife essentially takes takes his wife which is um just it's horrendous. But it again when we put these puzzle pieces together sort of from these stories it makes sense why he does the things that he does. Uh not that's not a justifying term by the way folks. I'm saying it it makes sense because he doesn't have self-control but he's also like always guilt-ridden. He's always repenting. And then new new revelations that contradict old revelations always come out and then you come up with this rule where well the newer ones outdo the older ones and so therefore they're abrogated so we don't need them anymore. Yeah. And it's uh Allah's explanations are just like terrible. I mean like beyond terrible. So you just on on just the two issues you just mentioned. So you mentioned abrogation. Um, you read about abrogation in the Quran, Surah 2:106 and Surah 16:101. Look up the historical background of either one of these verses. The historical background was that the pagans, the polytheists were making fun of Muslims going, "How come your prophet tells you to do something and then two weeks later he tells you to do the opposite and you just keep going along with it as if it's all the word of God? How how how is this not clicking for you what you're dealing with here?" And that's when Allah reveals in response to the pagans that he abrogates or causes certain verses to be forgotten because he comes up with something better than it or something uh that's equally good but different. And so it's it's just interesting. He doesn't say first that he abrogates verses. The revelations are just always changing. And it's the polytheists who notice and point us out going, "What what's up with your religion, man? He keeps changing his he keeps changing his message," and then Allah has to respond. And the response is just is is terrible. Like you could have said that before. You could have said that before. You wait until afterward and then it it just sounds silly. But on the issue of um Muhammad's Zaynab and Zayd, I mean same thing, but this time it's even worse because I mean it's just Allah's response is completely insane. It's it's completely incoherent. So uh the gist of this story everyone is uh Muhammad had an adopted son named Zayd. Zayd had one of the one of the most beautiful wives in all of Arabia, a woman named Zaynab. One day, Muhammad goes to visit his adopted son, and he's not home, and instead he's greeted by his adopted son's super hot wife, Zaynab, who's wearing all Do you know what the age difference would have been at that point? What's that? Do you know what the age difference would have been at that point? Um, let's see. So, he was in he was in his 50s. She was at that time I think around 18 to 20. Okay, good. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. So, not as not as bad as the uh Muhammad and Aisha. I mean, yeah. Muhammad and Aisha situation. Uh, so anyway, so he sees her practically naked and then he starts praising Allah for causing his heart to turn. Meaning Allah had revealed to him, hey, you see this hot this hot chick? She's uh she's about to be yours. Even though she's married to your own adopted son. So what happens? Well, Ma Muhammad's adopted son, Zayd, finds out that Muhammad's lusting after his wife. He divorces her. He divorces her so that Muhammad can have her. And Muhammad's telling him, uh, what? No, no, no. Don't divorce her. You just, just go ahead and keep your wife. And Allah actually has to rebuke Muhammad. Hey, what are you doing there? I told you I told you by golly, you have to take this woman as your wife. And in

Surah 33:37, Allah gives his reason. He gives his reason because sitting there thinking, why would Allah, that's Allah, that's Allah ordering Muhammad to take the wife of his own adopted son and to make make her his wife. Why would Allah want to do that? Like what? Like like like who says, "Hey, um here's a man. Here's his adopted son. His adopted son has a wife. I really need the dad to have sex with his adopted son's wife. Like what what's the point of that revelation there? Is there any point at all? Because it looks like Muhammad just was lusting after her and wanted her and by this time he's a prophet and he can get whatever he wanted.

Well, uh, but Allah gives his response. It's Surah 33:37 of the Quran. Anyone can look it up. Allah says that the reason the reason he needed Muhammad to take and marry the wife of his own adopted son was that so other adoptive dads will understand that they can take the wives of their own adopted sons. Oh, it's he he needs Muhammad to set an example for taking the wife of your own adopted son. So, who aren't really your sons now because of this whole situation. Yeah. Well, that, yeah, that's that's part of the reason it's incoherent.

So, so the first thing I would just point out is how many people struggle with this? Like how many people in history struggle with, oh man, I've got my adopted son and you know, he's married now, but I just don't know if I could I should take her for myself and and take her as my own wife. I don't know. I really need some guidance for God here. This is what Allah is compla is is claiming that he's responding to. There's this huge issue. Men just don't know what to do in this situation and therefore I need Muhammad to take the wife of his own adopted son to set an example for these guys that it's a-ok okay with Allah. Well, notice already even if you wanted to lay down that rule, you didn't have to have Muhammad do it. You could have just gave them a revelation. You could have just said it. You did not need Muhammad to do every single thing that someone is allowed to do.

Um, but yeah, the other part, the other part of it is uh same chapter, Surah 33:4-5. Allah abolishes adoption and it's because people are basically thought of it as along the lines of incest. You're she is married into your family, you adopted him into your family, and she married him, so she is married into your family. That's basically along the lines of incest for you to be having sex with her. And so that's when Allah revealed Surah 33:3:ES 4 to 5, which says that your adopted sons aren't really your sons. Stop calling them by this family name. Call them by their own family name. And so in in Islam, you can take care of an orphan. You do not adopt the orphan and bring him into your own family. That's that's not allowed. And it was all because Allah needed to respond to people who are accusing Muhammad of incest. And so, yeah, these are but yeah, these are the kinds of things that Muslims never hear about. They they don't hear about them from. It's right there in the Quran. I mean, think about how if you're actually reading the Quran, you come across this story and be like, "Huh, what's the story about Zade and Zanab and so on? What's the story about?" And you look up the historical background. You find out how messed up this guy is. For some, they don't do it. They never do it. Any Muslim who actually looks up the story, it's because we brought it up. Because we brought it up and he wanted to do research to try and find out how to defend Muhammad.

One thing a lot of people might not know and maybe your audience probably knows because you've educated on on this, but like Islam's like pretty global, but there's quite a bit of Muslims on the planet, a large amount of Muslims on the planet who don't know Arabic. Mhm. I remember speaking to someone who's a Muslim who was Indian and I said, "Well, like tell me about your faith and your kind of religious uh habits and stuff like that." And this individual said, "Well, you know, like I recite my prayers XY and Z and said all these things." I said, "Do you know what you're saying?" Oh, I said, "Do you speak Arabic?" And they said, "No." And I said, "So, how do you know what you're saying?" And they said, "Well, I don't, but I just repeat it. I I have to repeat it in Arabic because that's like the language." So, there's a vast majority of Muslims, we can even say, that are even reading these things or reciting these things, but have no idea what it's actually saying. And so that that's the reason why I say that is because there is a disconnect between uh the things that are taught in Arabic um that that are in the Quran versus when it trickles down to these other languages and and if taught what that would look like. And so people people are generally just ignorant of uh what's going on. I mean, there's a lot of Muslims on the planet, both Arabic speaking and non-Arabic speaking. Um, yeah, and it's just I mean, it's just this weird uh ongoing issue, but there's uh that actually connects to what we were talking about earlier as far as uh people people not understanding what's in their sources because they don't understand the Arabic and so on.

What's funny is, as I was pointing out earlier, the actual position of the Quran, if you if you were to just read the Quran from beginning to end without any outside interference and ask what is the Quran's connection to the previous scriptures, the scriptures of the Jews and the scriptures of the Christians, and what's the Quran saying about the status of all these various scriptures? You would say that according to the Quran, Allah sent prophets into all the world, all different languages. He would always send a prophet in the language of his people so that they could understand what he's saying and not have to have it interpreted for them by people who might be misinterpreting it because this is the issue that comes up in the Quran. You already have scriptures. You already have scriptures during this time. You already have Jewish and Christian scriptures during this time. What do you need a new revelation for? Well, the answer was Jews and Christians misrepresent their scriptures. You can't trust a Jew or a Christian when he's telling you. How do you know? He might be telling you the truth. He might not be. How do you know if you can't read it for yourself? How do you know if you're getting good information or if this guy's just messing with you? How do you know? Well, the only solution is to have a revelation in your own language. And so they said, "Aha, these people need a revelation in Arabic." And so Muhammad is sent to confirm the previous scriptures in Arabic so that Muslims know exactly what's been revealed to them and they don't have to listen to people who might be misleading them. So it needs to be in Arabic so that Arabic speakers can understand it. And as you pointed out, now you have millions of Muslims around the world who don't know Arabic but who are praying in Arabic and so on, and they don't understand what they're saying. Which is the point the Quran the Quran claims to be trying to do away with that problem. The Quran claims to be hey now it claims to be saying hey now everyone has the revelation in their own language. They don't need to listen to someone else. they can understand it for themselves. You got all these Muslims. So at best, according to that, at best Islam is an Arab-only religion. It's only for like ethnic Arabs who speak Arabic as far as as far as the Quran. Yes. As far as the Quran. Yeah. That is and that that's not that's not an insult. That's what the Quran says about all the scriptures, right? Uh in Surah 5:43, some Jews come to Muhammad to settle a dispute. Allah's response is, why are they coming to you when they have the Torah? Which, keep in mind, if your average Muslim believes that the Quran is saying the Bible's been corrupted, the Torah has been corrupted, well, they would need Muhammad to settle a dispute because they don't know what what in their book is reliable and what's been corrupted. But that's not what the Quran says. They come to Muhammad, hey, judge this dispute. Allah's response is, what, why, why would you go to this guy? This, this, the Arab guy. Go. You've got the book. You've got the book in your language. You've got the book in Hebrew. What, what are you coming to this guy for? So, uh, you have that and then just a few verses later, you've got 5:47, which commands Christians to judge by the gospel. And here again, why would the Quran be telling us to judge by the gospel if the gospel has been corrupted and everyone just needs to go to the Quran? So, the actual takeaway from the Quran is yes, the Quran is the book for Arabs. To be clear, everyone, every all people of the book, all people who've received revelation, everyone is supposed to believe that Muhammad is a prophet. Everyone's supposed to believe in him and believe in his revelations. But as far as what you judge by and live by, you're supposed to go by the book that was revealed in your language. And yet, you have all these Muslims going by the Quran, not in their language.

Okay. So, let's shift gears a little bit here. What's the best defense you've heard from Muslims against the Islamic dilemma? The best Muslim response against the Islamic dilemma? Yeah. That you would consider like a challenge? There's There's only one, and it's not one you'll hear. The be the best the best response is one they're not using. Oh, like you you have the best respon. Yeah, I I I want to talk to Issa Kabir. He's a he's a Sufi. I think I think this would be his position. I think this would be his position. Um, but I would I would so let let me just give people the basic responses. So the ma the by far the main response that Muslims give is to reinterpret everything Allah says about the previous scriptures. That's what they do. So, what does he mean when he says, um, why do they come to you for judgment when they have the Torah? What's he mean when he says, "They don't need you, Muhammad. They've got the Torah." Oh, he really means, well, he's just being sarcastic there. Okay, so uh, a few verses later when Allah tells Christians to judge by the Gospel, what's that mean? Oh, what he what it means is it means Christians need to go to the Quran, read the Quran, then go back to the Gospel, find all the parts in the Gospel that line up with the Quran, take those, those are good. Any parts that don't line up with the Quran, throw those out, those have been corrupted, and then judge by that. Well, then I wouldn't be judging by the gospel. I'd be judging by the Quran. I'd be judging the gospel by the Quran. That's not judging by the gospel. Why didn't he say judge the gospel by the Quran and not say judge by the gospel? Because those are two different things. If I judge the gospel by the Quran, I have to say, well, the the gospel doesn't line up with the Quran, so so much for the gospel. If I judge by the gospel, I have to reject Islam too because like the the Quran doesn't line up with the gospel. So why does Allah command us to do the thing which would force us to reject Islam? Why didn't he if he really meant judge by the Quran, why didn't he say judge by the Quran? So you have all these kinds of passages um throughout the Quran. You've got uh Surah 5:68. "O people of the book, you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." That's a very strange way of saying your scriptures are garbage. Throw them away and just go with the Quran. And then you have 10:94 where Allah says to Muhammad, "If you are in doubt as to what we have revealed to you, ask those who are reading the book before you." So this is so your average Muslim thinks that the Quran is the standard of all things and that the Bible's like down here and that if the if the Bible doesn't agree with the Quran, so much for the Bible. What you actually find in the Quran is, "Oh, Muhammad, you're not sure about these revelations." Well, we've got a standard out there. The standard is the scripture of the Jews and Christians. And if you want to know if yours are the word of God, make sure they line up with theirs. It doesn't make sense if our scriptures have been corrupted. So you have all the you have these kinds of passages. And what do Muslims do with it? The most common response um well, let me be clear here. The most common response is to have absolutely no clue what we're talking about, right? Just complete ignorance. I'm talking about once you have people who are actually responding like Dawa guys and so on. The most common response is to just reinterpret dozens and dozens of verses. And this is kind of amazing because a lot of the Dawa guys won't reinterpret other verses on other issues. Like there's only one verse in the Quran which Muslims think says Jesus didn't die on the cross by crucifixion. There's only one verse in the entire Quran and it's it's very ambiguous and there are other verses in the Quran that say that sound like they're saying the opposite and they won't budge on the interpretation of that. They won't budge, but you give them dozens of Quran verses affirming the reliability of our scriptures, they'll reinterpret every one of them wi without a second thought. So the by far most common most common response is reinterpretation of the Quran itself. Not reinterpret, not reinterpreting our book, reinterpreting their own book, which that that gets them into trouble because Allah brags about how clear his communications are. So if we sit there and give you 50 verses where he's saying what we're claiming and then you have to say every single time he actually means something else, it sounds like you're telling us he's not clear. It sounds like you're telling us he's an absolutely terrible, terrible, awful communicator. And so, yeah, it's basically at the end of the day when I was talking about innovation and so on and not submitting to Muhammad's decisions. It's like you're supposed to be careful with how you treat the words of Allah and the words of Muhammad. You're not just supposed to, oh, that doesn't line up with what uh uh what I was taught by my Imam. So, let me just say he means the opposite of what he's saying. That is not how this works. Islam submission. If Allah says, "Let the people of the gospel judge by what Allah revealed therein," you're supposed to take that very, very seriously and you just, "No, he's really saying," and then you give this uh you do these gymnastics and stuff. It's it's a weird situation where But we brought it up uh many times that it's like we have more respect for the Quran than they do even though we don't believe it. Yeah. I mean, we're at least saying do that. That's obviously not what that's saying. Do not insult your own god and your own religion by saying he means the opposite of what he's saying here. But anyway, that is still the most common response. They're still working on reinterpreting all of these passages. And how they do that, they cherrypick. They cherrypick later scholars. So they'll go to some guy from a thousand years later say, "Well, he said it means this." Well, okay. Unless you show me your god saying that, that's that's innovation. You're making stuff up. You're you're you're you're going to a later scholar and treating him as if he's the word of God and not what your what your god actually says. So that entire approach just like collapses under the weight of what Islam actually claims to be. Um, so that's the main response.

Another one that's emerging which is uh um it avoids the reinterpretation of the Quran problem but but only by creating ser another problem really really really really even dumber problem. So now you'll have and this would be someone like John Fontaine whom I just debated on this but uh John Fontaine's position is he doesn't he doesn't reinterpret all these Quran verses these Qurans are the these Quran verses are affirming the inspiration, the preservation, and the authority of the Torah and the Gospel and there were the Torah and the Gospel during the time of Muhammad. So these are according to John Fontaine. Yes, absolutely. The Quran is affirming their inspiration, preservation, and authority. No reinterpreting these Quran verses. Well, what's the problem? We look at our Bible and it doesn't line up. And so John Fontaine's position is the Torah and the Gospel existed in 7th century Arabia, but disappeared mysteriously right after that. And we have no record of them existing, no manuscript evidence of them existing at all anywhere. So think about this. So he's basically saying the Injeel was a book revealed to Jesus that that lines up with Islam. And so that book was in the first century. Uh, it was successfully passed on to the second century, to the third century, to the fourth century, to the fifth century, to the sixth century, all the way into the seventh century, and all the way down into Medina. And there's not one mention of it anywhere in history. Don't you think a book revealed to Jesus would be kind of an important book to Jesus there? So So the, let me understand. Is he arguing that there are parallel Christian narratives? Yeah. Yeah. So there's like the true one and then what we call Christianity. That's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So So I'm pointing out like, hey, this this would have been really important to Jesus. So sounds like something that he would have made sure got passed on to his followers and made sure they uh talked about and used. I'm just saying if Christians for seven centuries had a book that was like the direct word of God as revealed to Jesus in a book. Seems like there would be some mention of it somewhere. John Fontaine, he's willing to bite the bullet. I asked him, what, what's your manuscript evidence for this? None. He has none. And so and so you have and so you have the parallel with the um with the Torah. So the Torah he believes was revealed to Moses and then disappeared. it was lost forever. Um, and so what you have in the Bible, uh, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, that's not the Torah. That's something else. It's not a corrupted version of the Torah. It's just something else. It's something completely different from what the actual Torah was. Well, what is the Torah? Well, you don't know. But the Torah was re-revealed during the time of Jesus. Because right when he was saying that the Torah was lost, I was thinking, "Oh, you got a problem because it says that Jesus confirmed the Torah between his hands." And so that's that's obviously a place where it's talking about a Torah that's still existing during his time. And so John Fontaine, he preempted that one and said, "Yeah, um, but it was re-revealed to Jesus." So the Torah is lost. Then Allah re-reveals it to Jesus and then either Jesus followers had it written down or it was re-revealed again sometime later because somehow it ends up in seventh century Medina. I mean, this is such an argument from silence. It's just This is So, there's no evidence for anything like this. I mean, sorry, let me I'm going to cut you off here. It I I mean, maybe it goes along with, hey, the guy that died on the cross wasn't actually Jesus, even though everybody thought it was Jesus. It does. All the evidence can say one thing and you can just you can make up something that's unfalsifiable. You can't refute it because it's just it's just made up, right? Um, so, yeah. So, it's just an amazing coincidence that even though we have not one shred of evidence for the actual Torah that was revealed to Moses, it somehow made it to 7th century Medina. And even though we don't have one letter from the authentic gospel of Jesus, no reference to it, no Christians talking about it ever, somehow it made it all the way down to 7th century Medina. And both these books, amazingly, the only place on the earth you could find them, 7th century Medina. That booming booming metropolis of learning. That's where you had the only copies. And then uh Allah affirmed those scriptures. Yes, I affirmed their inspiration, their preservation, and their authority. And those are the scriptures that were filled with prophecies about Muhammad. Sadly, um after affirming them, they ceased to exist. And it's just terrible because these were the two main arguments in the Quran for why Jews and Christians should believe Muhammad as a prophet. The two main reasons in the Quran why Jews and Christians should believe in Muhammad is one that the Quran is affirming our scriptures. It says it over and over again. I'm affirming your scriptures. So why wouldn't you affirm scriptures that are affirming your scriptures? You're making no sense here, guys. Well, according to John Fontaine, the Quran isn't affirming our scriptures. It's affirming something that we don't know about and have no access to. So we have no basis for judging it's like a historically um grounded event that doesn't apply to any other Christians from any other time or any other Jews from any other time. Yeah. And the other uh the other main argument for why Jews and Christians should believe in Muhammad is that Muhammad is mentioned in our scriptures which we don't have because it's just trust me bro. If I say hey there's a hey hey Arthur you should believe in me because I'm in a book that you have no access to. Trust me. Yeah. They're telling us that that's that's the main argument for why we should believe in Islam. So Allah's the cost of that reasoning is that the the two main arguments the two the two reasons Allah gives to Jews and Christians to believe in the Quran just went bye-bye and now we have nothing. Now we have no reason to believe that the Quran is from Allah. So anyway, those are the main approaches for responding to it. Uh I have thought I've had to think uh over the years because I often think, hey, what if this weren't my position? What if I had this other position? What would I think? So, in other words, if I'm thinking about Islam and thinking about how I would react to the Islamic dilemma, if I were a Muslim, I think, okay, suppose a Muslim gives me some great awesome argument for why Islam is true, and I believe him and I conclude that Muhammad is a true prophet. I I can't just make my knowledge of what the Quran says about the previous scriptures go away. So, how would I what would I do with that? Right? In other words, if I came to believe in the Quran as the word of Allah, but I know that the Quran affirms the previous scriptures, what do I do? What do I do here? And I concluded that I would have to I would have to I would have to do something like this. I would have to say, okay, I believe in the Quran is the word of Allah, but the Quran is affirming these scriptures. So all these scriptures are according to the Quran the word of Allah. What am I going to do here? Well, in that situation, you would have to harmonize the best you can. And some of that is actually fairly easy. Like Muslims will put a put a lot of emphasis on Jesus not dying by crucifixion. Again, it's one verse of the Quran, which is massively ambiguous. There's always been a minority of Muslims who interpreted this completely differently as not denying the crucifixion. Um, and you have other Quran verses, other Quran verses which sound like they're affirming Jesus' death. And so that's a situation where you, if you're trying to harmonize, you're saying, "Wait, all these scriptures are from God. What do I do here?" Well, the the gospel is pretty darn clear, as clear as it can be on anything that Jesus died by crucifixion. The Quran has one ambiguous verse. Obviously, you would use the clear, abundant verses to interpret the ambiguous verse. That's that's fundamental principle of of scriptural interpretation. So, you try to harmonize as much as you can. When you get to other areas where you actually can't harmonize, like on something, Jesus being the son of God, the Quran, no one's called a son of God in in any sense. Jesus is the son of God according to the gospel. What do you do there? Well, that's something that's you have strong evidence of a position in Islam and a strong evidence of a position in Christianity. And you can't just it you kind of can't just reinterpret uh either one of those there. I would have to do I would have to interpret Surah 5:48 in a certain way to kind of reconcile all this. And what Surah 5:48 says is it starts off as another verse about the Quran affirming the previous scriptures. So 5:48 in context, it's 5:43 that's where I said the Jews came to Muhammad to settle a dispute and um Allah says why why aren't Jews coming to you? They've got the Torah. They don't need you. It's the Arabs who need you. Jews do not need you. Arabs need you. Then a few verses later 5:47 commands Christians to judge by the gospel. Then the very next verse 5:48 Allah says that he sent Muhammad with the book. The book confirms the scriptures that came before it and as a guardian over them. How does how's the Quran a guardian over the previous scriptures? Well, you just saw it. Jews don't want to judge by the Torah. The Quran says, "No, you're going back to the Torah. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. You're going back to the Torah." That's how the Quran is a guardian. But, uh, as that passage continues, Allah says that he gave a different law to different groups so that they would remain different groups and wouldn't just become one big group. So he gave different revelations to different people so that they may so that they remained distinct separate groups and that he wants them to be separate groups so that they can all compete with each other in good works. And he says, "But you're not going to know what the truth of certain things is." And you won't find that out until judgment when Allah reveals to you who was right and who was wrong about these things. So if I had to, that's what I would have to do if I believed in the Quran. If I believed in the Quran as the perfect word of Allah, I would have to say, okay, in his perfect word, he's affirming those scriptures and I look at those scriptures and they're contradicting the Quran. What do I do? Harmonize as much as possible because it would all according to the Quran, it would all be the word of Allah. So, I'd have to harmonize as much as possible. Whatever's left where you can't harmonize it. You just have different teachings. Say Allah revealed it in different ways to keep people different groups so that we would all compete with each other in good works. He wants us to be separate groups, but at the judgment, he'll tell us who was who was right and who was wrong about some of these things. I think that would be the best response to the Islamic dilemma that that doesn't require you to uh basically insult the law constantly by reinterpreting everything he says and doesn't uh force you to posit imaginary books that pop into existence and out of existence whenever convenient.

You know, like as you're explaining these things, the thought that comes to me is like Muhammad out of impulse, possession, uh, and I mean that demonic possession, out of his own whims or whatever, however we want to look at where Muhammad got his ideas from, um, has turned everyone inside out like a pretzel so much where it's absolutely impossible to like untangle this because he's contradicted himself so so much both in the way uh he lived his life and and the things he taught. They're just contradictory. And um and and and this is partly why I can see the desire for some Muslims to kind of try to ignore and get rid of the Hadiths and just like be about the Quran because that complicates matter so much. Even though I don't think they have good reason to do that, but they're at least trying to detangle the thing to a certain extent. So, they'll be able to have uh, you know, live semi consistently, let's just say, uh, with what they see in uh, in the Quran. Um, this is a phenomenal argument, man. It's um, like did you guys discover this being used like throughout history with other like like Christian scholars? I know Aquinas has a correspondence with some Muslims or specific Muslim and I know there's various theologians throughout that have that have gone back and forth with each other. Have they used this or is this like fairly new? Um, the way it's being used now is fairly new. Um, you did have Christians over the centuries, even early. And, uh, Cameron Berusi on his channel, Capturing Christianity, has a video uh, he just put out about this a few days ago. Um, and it was about, he found it in he found it from an 8th century Christian. Found it from an 8th century Christian in his introduction to his commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. And he was clearly familiar with Muslims by this time, saying, "Oh, you know, your Bible doesn't line up with the Qur. It's been corrupted." And he actually he quotes Surah 10:94 in response. He's like, "Well, why does Allah send you to us to confirm your book? Why would Allah say you can only confirm your book by going to our book? Makes no sense." Anyway, um, so I mean that's 8th century. You had Christians who are aware of what the Quran says about our scriptures. It's m it's it's Muslims who are almost never aware of what the Quran says about our scriptures. You had Christians over uh over the centuries who figured it out. But yeah, if you get into the 80s and 90s and e even before that, but you would see Christians um like William Campbell and others who would point out what the Quran says about the Bible and point out that the Quran is affirming our scriptures. They're not using it offensively. They're using it to say, "Muslims, you need to stop running around saying that the Bible's been corrupted. You're you're not agreeing with your book." Um, so they're they're they're telling Muslims, "Hey, the Quran has more respect for for our book than you do. You need to quit being so disrespectful to our to our book." And that's uh that's a pretty important point. It's just Muslims again had no clue what's in our scriptures, much like Muhammad, but they had no clue what's in their scriptures. And they only they only hear things from their leaders, and their leaders are telling them, "Your book says their book's been corrupted." And then they eventually hear from us, no. Um, actually your book says our book can't be corrupted. But who are you going to believe? You're you're not going to you're going to still believe your your leader and not the Christian. The Christians are liars. That's what they always tell you. Don't trust these Christians. These Christians are liars. So it takes a lot of work actually going through the Quran and popularizing these verses and doing debates and challenging, can you show us one verse that says our book's been corrupted? Can you show us one? Because we can't find one. We can show you dozens that say our book hasn't been corrupted. Do you have one that says our book's been corrupted? So you have you have that sort of ongoing situation. Uh in the 2000s in the 2000s, this is where it went. So So again, Christians were recognizing and pointing to what the Quran says about the Bible. Um, but they're you they're using it just to tell Muslims, you shouldn't be arguing this way. In other words, it would be like if I were talking to an atheist and I said, Jesus rose from the dead, an atheist says, "What are you talking about? That's ridiculous. Miracles are miracles are are nonsense." That would make sense coming from an atheist. If I were talking to a Muslim and I said, "Hey, Muslim, um, Jesus died on the cross for sins and rose from the dead." If a Muslim said, "That's stupid. People don't rise from the dead. That's a miracle. Miracles don't happen." My response at that point would not be some sort of philosophical defense of miracles. My response would be, "Whoa, you obviously do not know what your own religion teaches." Yeah. You need to stop you. You don't get to use that objection. The atheist can use that objection. You do not get to use that objection. And if you don't see why, let's go to your book and I'll show you why you are not allowed to use that objection. So if we go through your book and you see why you're not allowed to say miracles don't occur. Um, then if you want to leave your religion and become an agnostic or something like that, then use that argument. Okay, that's fine. But you do not get to be a Muslim and use an argument that according to your own book you were not allowed to use. That's kind of what we're doing with the Islamic dilemma. Um, and that that's kind of what Christians were doing back then. You were not you're not allowed to use this argument. you're not allowed to base your entire argument, your entire Dawa pitch on our book being corrupted when it's the opposite of what your book says. So, you did have Christians using it uh back then. Um, what happened since then was we weaponized it. You had Christians like Sam Shimon and uh then me and so on, but we started tweaking the argument and we we turned it to an offensive simultaneously defensive and offensive, right? So, they're coming at you. they're coming at you. And so you kind of judo flip it and hey, wait, whoa, you you got the problem here. Oh, our book's been corrupted. Oh, your god and your prophet say it hasn't. So you got a problem here. And so we just kind of flipped it. And then over time, we've kind of been like crafting it into something that anyone can use and that is just airtight. And it's funny because for the long Muslim Muslim leaders, Dawa guys, they'll ignore something as long as they can. As long as they can ignore something, they'll put it off. They would rather ignore something than put it up for debate because they understand if they debate something then take Muhammad and Aisha like if you go back to 2005, 2006, Muslims didn't know about Muhammad and Aisha. Um, Muslims in the West and so if you wanted to have a debate and talk about Muhammad and Aisha, the Muslim didn't want to debate that even if he thought he had a great explanation for why Muhammad had to marry Aisha, he didn't want to debate that because guess what? There would be there would be a hundred Muslims in the room who never heard of the problem before. Yeah. If you give them your if you give them your response to the objection, well, now they know there's a problem. They didn't even know there's a problem. They had nothing to worry about. They don't have to think is his response good or bad because they don't even know what they're they don't even know that they need to respond to anything. So, uh, they've they'll try to put things off as long as they can without answering them. uh, and they'll only it's only when we start popularizing it and then people start catching on and then everyone's using it that's when all these people complain to their Dawa leaders and we finally get some of the some of the Dawa guys responding when we and we finally got debates. But here's the thing. If you go back year and a half ago, well, I've been using the Islamic dilemma for years and several other Christians have been using the Islamic dilemma for years, but most Muslims are ignoring it. And so, it's always in the back of your mind like maybe they do have a good response that I just haven't thought of. Maybe there is a response out there that I just haven't thought of and that we're eventually going to run into this great response. And so, you're still you're still not completely confident in the argument like, you know, I've always used this. I've never seen a good response, but I don't know what the next Muslim's going to come up with. Maybe he's going to come up with an awesome response. But then you start debating it and other people start debating it. And now we're in a we're in a spot where the more they try to respond to it, the clearer it's becoming that they have no response. Yeah. It's all it's all smoke it's all smoke and mirrors the the entire the entire thing. So this is just this is only going to get worse for him. No, this is good. Uh am I under the correct assumption to think that you're writing a book on this? Uh yeah, I'm writing one and Chris from Speakers Corner is writing one. Not together. You guys are writing two different two separate ones. His is his is his is uh a deeper dive than mine. Uh mine's kind of like introduction, how to run the argument, uh objections and replies and stuff. Basically, put it in your hands and then and you can you can run out and debate it. You can run out and debate it. It's all it's the exact same information I use in debate. You're not doing like an academic thing. He's trying to do more of an academic thing. Yeah, his will be more academic. But I mean, seriously, there's like there's going to be a lot of stuff on this coming out because it's uh it's just this is the ultimate Dawa stopper and you've got you still got all sorts of Christians who are uh just worried. What do we do about the spread of Islam? What do we do? Islam, look at Islam is going to be taking over major European cities and stuff. What do we do? Well, here's an idea. One, if since it's easy to stop Dawa, stop Dawa. Yeah. Block Dawa. Then you block the conversions. So that that that would be step number one. And it's easy to do. that you you were mentioning you were mentioning earlier you can with uh you don't have to know a ton to run this argument right like there again there are dozens of verses you can use in the Quran and there are responses that that would be a good idea to learn how to respond to but the the basic you could you could use like two or three Quran verses and run this against your against your Muslim friend. You could you could just you could take you could take any of like the top 10 verses take two or two or three verses of among the top 10 and use those and run the argument with your Muslim friend. So there's um it's something anyone can pick up on pretty quickly. It's something that's becoming more popular. Uh it's becoming clear that they have no serious response to the Islamic dilemma and other people are seeing it. Muslims are seeing that they don't have a response. Christians are seeing that they don't have a response. So looks like looks like they're in quite a bit of trouble now. Yeah. Um it's it's it's a solid argument, man. It's it's really cool. I like it. I like the work that you guys are doing. I like that there's a concentrated effort. Uh let me ask you this question as we're coming to the end of this. Um I've you're saying um these Dawa guys I've kind of seen in the last maybe six months that a lot of these Dawa guys that were really popular and out there Muhammad hijab Ali Dawa um the other dude that had issues with domestic shake Uman um they've slowed down like they're kind of non-existent in the online space at least. There's a couple of other people posting stuff on TikTok and uh and YouTube and stuff like that. Um, have you noticed that same thing or am I not paying attention as much and my algorithms changed or something like that? Yeah, Dawa Dawa is crumbling and it's it's actually a couple things combined. So, one Dawa guys Dawa guys didn't have sort of a long lifespan to begin with in general and it's why because so going back years you're looking at like Ahmed Dat and Zach and stuff. Yeah. So you back then you had Dawa guys who would last a long time, right? But when it when it shifted to social media, I mean look look up look up Zucker Knight's channel now. Yeah. That guy can't get 2,000 views on a video and he has like 5 million subscribers and he's hiding because the Indian government's after him. Yeah. But I mean still still he posts posts videos constantly. He has trouble getting 2,000 views on a on a video now. No, for a time now for a small channel 2,000 views would be awesome. If you have millions of subscribers, that means none of your subscribers are watching your videos anymore. They they've given up, right? So here's what happened in this uh awesome shift. But back in the day, you could have your Ahmed Dot, your Zachary Nike, and so on. Once social media comes along, you can get you can get these guys who kind of skip skip line, skip the line, right? They skipped a directly appealing to the people because it was a much much smarter way of going about things back in the day. If you were a Muslim organization and you had to pick a Muslim to speak on your behalf, well, you're going to get this handpicked person, right? This handpicked, well-trained person who's going to go out there and who is sort of selected because he'll be compelling to non-Muslims hopefully, right? So, Shabir Ali, Shabir, Shabir Ali comes across as very intelligent, uh, very kind and so on. um not thumping his chest. And so so he's appealing to a western audience. Uh but even back then, even back then when I was seeing like Shabir Ali and stuff, I was always wondering like these are not like the Muslims I'm talking to online. Where's the guy who like represents them? They're strong. We're so strong. We humiliate you. Like that's not how their debaters were were speaking. So where's the debater that accurately, you know, accurately represents the people? And then eventually thanks to social media, you started getting it right. like whoever could get a following they'd become more popular on social media. So that's when you started getting uh even before that even before that like it like the sort of class of the first class the class of like 2008 to 2010 or 2012. Yeah. It was like it was like Sami Zatri and Basam Zawadi and Osama Abdullah and these kinds of guys and it's like hey where are those guys? Yeah. Where where are any of those guys? Were any where are any of the guys who were popular in 2008 to 2012? Where are those guys? They're all gone then. Okay. Well, what about the guys that you know the batch that came along after that? The batch from 2012 to 2016. Where are they? They're gone. Where are the guys from like what you have right now is the guys who started come along in like 2018, 2019 and so on. Now they're fizzle. Now they're fizzling out. And the reason is if if you're trying to become popular online, you just basically come up with some new shtick of your way of doing things or your it's usually something massively deceptive. Um, but you've got your new way of deceiving. I'll just give you an example so people can understand what I'm talking about. Daniel Hakeiku became very popular very quickly and he was defending a lot of things like child marriage and so on. Yeah. But his uh his way of getting popular very quickly was he would claim he would act like he's quoting all these studies. He's like, "And according to this study and according to that study and according to this study, you're wrong and this study says you're wrong and this study says this is true and this study says I'm right." And he's just doing that his entire debate. Now, that will work. That will work for a while because guess what? No one's no one's read those studies. If you bring if you all of a sudden bring up a bunch of studies, no one's read those studies. And people are going to trust you that you're act that you're um that you're talking about them accurately. What happens when someone goes and reads

reads all those studies? Well, that's what happened, right? He was having a debate with Mike Jones, Inspiring Philosophy. Mike went and read all those studies and just like completely like crushed and embarrassed him. This is saying the opposite of what you're saying. Did you only read the title or did you actually read the article? Because the article says the opposite of what you're saying. He did this over and over again. And it became clear that Daniel's method is to just lie, is to just make things up about sources, but sound sound like he knows what he's talking about because he's citing various studies.

Guess what? All these guys come up with some method of doing things like that that works for a short time. They they skyrocket in popularity because everyone's, "Yes, our new hero, the one who's going to save our children from becoming apostates is here." and they will shower that person with attention and praise and money and anything else and he'll become super popular really quickly. Well, if you have a deceptive methodology, people are going to catch on over time and they're going to expose that over time and then you start to uh fizzle out.

So, right now we're in a situation where uh we need to start looking towards uh who the new batch the new batch of Muslim Dawah figures is going to be because the uh the class of 2018 and 2020, they're falling apart right now. I wonder if all of them will be like Lily Jay. Yeah, you have to. I mean, even Lily, even Lily Jay, we're just giving her we're giving her a little time to build up so that her crash is uh that that's that's someone that's easy. That is someone easy to destroy as far as a Dawah career. It's it's it's much better. It's much better to give time to build up popularity, especially for narcissists. I'm guessing here um uh just asking questions. I guess she has to be funded by someone.

Oh, obviously. I mean, obviously. Like, you're just not sitting there talking to Chad. Hey, Chad GPT. And Chad GPT. And it's like obvious you've trained Chad GPT to answer questions the way you wanted to. No, but that's the situation. I mean I mean, think about that. Like I I haven't seen one of her videos that was close to being correct on on anything. It's it's all absolute nonsense. And what she was doing, and this is what I mean with dishonesty, right? With dishonesty, everyone comes up with something that's dishonest that works for a while and then stops working. She was taking advantage of the fact that you can basically program chat GPT to give Islamic answers. You can pro you can tell to give Christian answers and stuff. Uh so you can ask it just a generic question without any sort of prompts and it will give you one sort of answer. If you say you can program it so that it knows when you're talking you want the Muslim answer or the Christian answer and then so she just tells Chad GPT to give the the Muslim answer to all these things and then she's shocked that it's giving the Muslim answer that it's confirming her. Right.

Well, h how so this worked for a while. Muslims were really impressed with this. Muslims are cheering. Oh my goodness, this is the proof of our religion. This is going to save our religion. What happened? People started asking chat GPT unfiltered the exact same question getting completely different answers. Yep. So, it got exposed, but now and now she doesn't do it do it as much with the chat GPT. Why? Everyone makes fun of her as soon as she does it. But now she's going on to making a um the last thing we saw from her, she was making a they're making an animated series. Lily Liy, she's definitely getting Lily Jay's World. Yeah.

So, but think about being funded. This is this is the position they're in. They're they're so desperate. They will cling to anything. They'll cling to Andrew Tate. They'll cling to Sneo, right? They'll cling to Lily Jay, like the last people on the planet you would want representing your religion, but they're they're just desperate. Why? The apostasy rates have gone from basically 0% among young Muslims to 26% as of I think two years ago. So that's a that's a an apostasy rate that is shooting up like this. So they're in panic mode. Anyone right now, anyone, if anyone is is a if you're a complete liar and you want to make a bunch of money by being a complete liar, there is a an awesome field out there for you called Dawah. All you have to do come up with some way of uh lying and just tell everyone that you're going to be the one that saves all their children from Islam. There you go, Muslims. David Wood just gave you a career uh career advice there.

Um, let me ask some of the uh super chat uh comments or questions that have come in and a couple of questions that have come in. Um, and then we'll be on our way. Uh, because we got uh Rousan gave a super chat and said, "Where am I meeting you guys?" I responded to your text, Rousan, you didn't have to give the super chat, but we'll take your money anyway. So, thank you. Appreciate that. Uh, Yondell with the big 99.999. Peace and blessings. Thank you, man. God bless you. Um, uh, can you ask David Wood to explain the men of Al-Zut? You know about And there's multiple questions about, uh, Al-Zut, you know about the Zut. You know about the Zut people? I I have I have heard about the Zut people. Everybody knows the Zut people. Yeah. So, the the general idea is there are some weird stories in the Muslim sources. uh Muslims themselves uh can't figure out what they mean, but they sound really bad and they expect us to go with their nice reinterpretation, but they're so nasty with the way they interpret all our all our stuff that I'm just like, I'm not I'm just going to go with what this sounds like. So, uh Muhammad takes his companion Abdullah ibn Masud out into the desert, draws a line in the sand, says stay beside stay behind that land. Stay behind that line or you'll be destroyed. Then uh a group of men uh or jinn Muslims will say but it says they look a group appeared and they said they look like the men of Al-Zut Muslims will say this is jinn something like that but anyway uh you had the men of Al-Zut showed up these were um people from India they're they're the the uh today they're called the Jot people um but back then they were called the Zut and a group of these guys and it it said they mounted him and rode him all night long until he returned in pain and then passed out on Abdullah ibn Masud's lap. Is this um is this an authentic sources that they would accept? Yeah, you I mean you'll you'll always have Muslims who deny the sources and stuff like this, but yeah, for so you can find a Muslim who say it's a weak hadith. Well, great. We can show you all kinds of Muslims who say the hadith is authentic. So, we're not going to let you pick and choose based on you not liking the way the story sounds. Yeah. We need an Islamic dilemma book. It's coming. It is coming. David said it here and other places.

Um Rob Reed said, "I missed out on the tickets tonight. Have a blessed time." Rob, um why don't you send me an email like ASAP. Send me an email info@apologetics.com. Please just send me an email and then uh I'll arrange something for you, brother. Um we are sold out for the event tonight. So, um yeah, we're we're trying to get uh as many people as we can. So, just send send me an email.

Um Bobo says, "Why do we make uh fun of Muslims when Jews have some ridiculous teachings in the Talmud?" Um yeah, so that sounds like a uh sounds like a groper, but the the idea is yeah, these are the guys who say, "Hey, if you're making fun of Islam, then you need to make fun of uh the Talmud." They don't understand what's going on there. Um as far So, I I give a bunch of reasons here. one, you got two billion Muslims um who are on the verge of violently subjugating the entire world um and you have leading experts from that position uh announcing that they're going to kill me and all my friends because all my friends are either critics of Islam or they're ex-Muslims or both. And so you have one ideology that's about to take over major American major European cities and so on and they're announcing that they're going to kill me and all my friends. Um, so you're saying that I should what? Go after the Talmud? Yeah, the T. Okay. How how many? Where where am I about to be killed? Who's announcing that if if we if we Jews get our way, you're dead. Who's saying this? I'll tell you who's saying it. A bunch of gripers. A bunch of gripers and online orthobros are saying that they're saying it. I just never I just never once I The answer to this question is super simple. Like people concentrate in various areas when they're doing ministry. Like my channel, this channel Pagia Center has like we deal with apologetics generally speaking, but we try to still stay within a realm of dealing with the text of the Bible, dealing with biblical interpretations, uh dealing with philosophical arguments and things of that sort like apologetics as a worldview uh kind of development. So we approach it from that perspective which is very different than say the way you know Cameron does his channel or Gavin Ortland does his channel or David does his channel. I would just say bro if you're really interested just start a channel and do evangelism towards uh Jews and talk about the Talmud but he doesn't have to do that. Yeah.

Um, so yeah and and it's uh you can kind of tell what what kind of group you're dealing with because uh there's all sorts of stuff in the Talmud you can complain about. That's right. Yeah. I would personally not be interested because I'm I'm far more interested in the people who are announcing they're going to violently subjugate me and slaughter all my friends and you know so that kind of takes a takes precedence. But even the Talmud it's the critics don't even understand what it it's it's a collection it's a collection of rabbinic debates over many centuries. Yeah. And they'll they'll like cherrypick these verses and say look at this horrible thing. They'll leave out the fact that right after that another rabbi said the opposite and said he's wrong. Because they're debating. Yeah. Because because they're debating. And I I pointed out it's like just imagine if imagine if we had something like this in Christianity where someone took all the theological debates like uh Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant all through the centuries and everything these guys said on all these different issues and everything they said about unbelievers and stuff and then they and then they started picking out things and then saying, "See, this is what Christians believe." Would that be an accurate reflection of what Christians believe? No. No. That that that no Christian would think that's a good idea. Take everything that from every Christian debate that's ever been, put it all together into a giant book, and then you can point to anything that was said by any Christian and say, "See, that's what Christians believe." That would be insane. You would come across as a and a lunatic if you argued. And yet, that's what that's what these guys do with the Talmud. Again, if you want, here's how you accurately criticize the Talmud, guys. You say, "In this passage of the Talmud, Rabbi so and so says this messed up thing." So, guess what? Shame on Rabbi so and so. And if you agree with Rabbi so and so, shame on you for agreeing with that thing. That's never I've never once seen them argue like that. It's here's a quote from the Talmud. See, this is what Jews believe. Really? Even the atheist one? Yes, they're all following that. Yes. the Jew who is the bank manager at your bank is using this and he's plotting to kill you and stuff and it's like seriously this is what you want me to take away time from Islam for like a handful of us dealing with Islam and you want no we need to focus on the Talmud okay I can kind of predict what sort of person you are and in my mind we we need more people dealing with various things like if somebody was like how come you guys aren't going after Hinduism I'm like dude get into it like go study Hinduism and and then create something And we'll support you. We'll support you in various ways. Like the people that do this on the internet and have developed ministries that are focused ministries support each other in various ways. David being here is in support of this channel, right? I I contacted David and said, "Hey, we're doing this conference, man. You down to come down?" And he said, "Yes, I'm down." And he's here now and we're sitting down and it support that supports the work we're doing in our area um and and doing evangelism and ministry in our area. So, if you want to do that stuff, do it. But, uh, again, I have a sneaky suspicion that the people saying that stuff aren't actually interested in doing that. Yeah, they aren't there. And really, I don't I don't trust I mean, you could you could use other examples. David, David, why are you criticizing the Quran and not criticizing the Book of Mormon? Yeah. Well, I don't know because there's defin Well, because I look at the number of Mormons in the world. There aren't a ton of them. And I look at number of Muslims and it's this huge thing. And I look at how much uh how much of Christianity's intellectual apologetic resources are being dedicated to going against Islam and it's not nearly enough. And so I really want to focus on that. And then so when you come along, no, you should focus on Mormonism. What you really mean is you're interested in Mormonism and you want everyone talking about Mormonism because you're interested in it, not because you're you're thinking, oh, other people might have uh different interests and stuff. So you have that sort of thing, but it's fine. I'm interested in Islam, but I'm not interested in Islam as much as you're interested in Islam. So, I talk about Islam, but I don't talk about Islam as much as you talk about Islam. Yeah. And guess what? You don't have to. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like like like put it this way. If someone's interested in Mormonism and they're they're, you know, an ex-Mormon and they focus on responding to Mormons, it would never cross my mind to go, "Why aren't you talking about the Quran home? Why aren't you focusing on the Quran then?" Right? So, you know, that always comes across as kind of weird, but I mean it it I occasionally get that about the Book of Mormon. I occasionally get that about something else. Hey, why aren't you responding to Hinduism, David? And I usually just give a, you know, quick response. So, are you saying that I should divert some of my attention away from responding to Islam and learn about this topic that I know nothing about and really focus on that and have that take away and normally they just agree with me. It's but with the people with the people who don't like Jews there, it's like thousands of times more from them. Like anytime you bring up, hey, you know what about Muhammad and what about the Talmud? And it's like how do you how do you not realize you're the ones with the issue and like who's stop and by the way, as you pointed out, who's stopping you from talking about it all you want? No one. Why does anyone who talks about anything have to talk about what you want to talk about? Jews all here. I'll give you a recommendation. Radar Apologetics. Rabbi Eduardo does a great job talking about the subject. knows it very well and uh and does a great job and is consistent with it. Hey, look at the look at these morons. I mean, look, Evo 37 too soft on this. David, is David compromised? This is like it's like a Candace Owens thing, right? They're they're programmed to say either do what I want or I'll say you're compromised or you're being paid or you're being threatened. It's like a total joke of a position. Like, dude, just write I'm a complete brainwashed across your head. Little Nick Fuentes. Go watch Nick Fuentes, man. That's your hero. Oh man, is David compromised? That's hilarious.

Okay, David, we'll end with this question because I think it's a good question, man. Um, David, how do you handle receiving death threats from Muslims? I'm new to receiving all sorts of threats, curses, prayers that Allah will end me in all sorts of horrific ways. How have you dealt with it over the years? Uh, one, I'm not scared of dying, so there's that. Uh, two, I have a mental problem which makes me actually like being in dangerous situations um, more. Three, I get way less death threats than I used to. Uh, and that's because the al I'm mostly on YouTube and the YouTube algorithm has been trained to delete death threats. Oh. Which which actually sucks. Like Yeah, because people are making them. Yeah. Someone's making a death threat. I it would be good and especially in the rare case where someone's actually serious, it would be good to know about it and have a record of it and you're just deleting them. Nope, this guy's threatening someone, so we'll just delete them. So, yeah, weird situation there. Um, but yeah, I I mean, I used to get you could get 30, 40, 50 death threats in a day after a video. Just you just get them left and right back in the day. Uh, now significantly fewer, especially if it's on YouTube. It means someone spelled something weird and the the algorithm didn't pick up on it. The bot didn't pick up on it. But uh uh yeah, so a couple things together. One, uh they've been threatening me for a long time. You got to assume the vast majority of them aren't serious. Uh two, if they are, the small minority that may actually be serious, um I think I'd actually win. I think they're going to show up with knives and they're going to lose that one. Something like that. And then three, the almighty. The Almighty can protect me if he wants. And if he ever chooses not to, well, I know where I'm going. though. Yeah. What I got to worry about. Good way to go, right? Good way to go. Yeah. I'm not I'm not opposed to dying by being brutally murdered. Yeah. This was the mindset that Daniel's friends had when they were being thrown into a furnace. Hey, God is able to rescue us, but even if he doesn't, we're not going to bow.

Um, well, David, hey man, I want to thank you. This has been highly uh educational. I mean, I knew some of the material that you shared, but uh it's been educational for me. Somebody in the chat said, "This is so good. I got to come back with a pen and a pad, sit down and rewatch this and take notes." Uh so appreciate you, man. I appreciate you being here. I think we're going to have uh a very good time tonight. Uh but thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and answer some of these questions. All right.

Okay, folks. Um we want to thank you guys. Uh this was, you know, on Fridays we do a live Q&A with folks. So if you're un if you're not subscribed to this channel, go ahead and subscribe to this channel. I do live questions. We do streams on Mondays, release various videos. Uh that's what the ministry is about. Uh we'd love for you to be part of this community if you are not part of this community. With all that said, God bless you guys. Take care and um see you guys Monday. [Music]