Transcription
So, people know what you believe about the Godhead, express your view. My view of the Godhead is the Father in creation, incarnate in Jesus as the expressed person, and the Holy Spirit as the sanctification of the Saints. Yeah, that didn't tell us exactly what you believe about the Holy Spirit.
So, the Holy Spirit is not a distinct person from the Father, right? The Holy Spirit is not a person, no, and He's not distinct from the Father. So what is He in relation to the Father? He is a work. Jesus is what again? The Incarnation of God the Father. So He's basically the Father in human flesh, right? Correct. 1 Timothy 3:16. Yeah, that does say that's God the Father, and you're going with the King James. I understand. I know your arguments, believe me. You can throw verses, but it's not going to prove your case. So, no, you said it doesn't say that. It doesn't say that. No, it doesn't say the Father was manifest in the flesh. It says God was manifest in the flesh. You're misreading it. So God—it's not the Father because God is not limited to the Father. Oh, no, I didn't say that. I said it's God, not the Father. Don't attack strawmen.
So you're starting already with the fine, fine, fine. Let me see if you understand. Articulate the Trinity; see if you understand. What does the Trinity teach? I see that's where you lost me, because I don't believe in like a doctrine of the Trinity. No, I didn't ask what you believe. I can articulate your faith, even though I believe it's okay. So can I ask you a question then? If you want to ask me how does the Trinity… So where is the word Trinity in the Bible? Where is the word Modalism, Oneness? I, I never said… I never said I was… I never said Modalism. I never said… To ask me these stupid questions is like me asking you, show me the word Bible in your King James Bible. Don't ask stupid… Don't make stupid objections. Let's come back… Show me where Jesus says, "I am the Father," and those exact words, "I am the Father," and those exact words. You see… Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. He didn't say it in those exact words, but they… Wait, listen then! Stop using arguments inconsistently, where I'm going to bury you. Don't ask me to show you the word Trinity, 'cause that's not the argument. The argument is, does the Bible teach the doctrine of the Trinity? So I asked you, do you even know what the Trinity is? I don't ask if you believed it because I don't believe your doctrine of demons of scripture, but I can at least articulate your position. What is the Trinity? It's um… the idea that there's one God in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
So now if you know that, you know that according to… to the Trinity we believe—you deny it—that each person is called God. So when you quote a passage that says God was manifest in the flesh, instead of assuming your view that the Father alone is God—that doesn't say the Father became flesh—you have to now prove that God there must necessarily be the Father. You understand the argument now? I do. So let's not attack straw men, misrepresent, because you said you're here to have a serious discussion, not argue like a kindergarten kid, because I've debated one of these. Let's take it to a higher level now. What passage do you use to show Jesus is the Father in the flesh? Quote it for me. I use 1 Timothy 3:16. Doesn't prove your case. So give me something else. Why? Why would you say that though? Because in the scriptures you find two distinct persons, both called God, or in Greek, Theos. You don't believe they're distinct persons, but still there's a distinction. John 1:1, just to name one example. Execute that for me. John 1:1. Uh… In the beginning the… the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So the Word was with God. Yeah, that was Logos though, right? The word Logos. So that's mean Logos doesn't always mean thought. You're wrong. Well, you said it doesn't always mean thought. So it does mean thought. No, not there, because the word with God, pro, as used by John, means two distinct entities in intimate communion. The same phrase with God is used in John 16:28 and John 13:3. We'll get there. Is the word the same God He's with? He's with God. So when it says He's God, is He the same God He's with? Yes. So He's with God, and He's with Himself, because He's the same God He's with. Amen. Yeah, and you're amening your stupidity, 'cause that's not what the text says. It said the Word… It said the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Pro, and then it says hos in the Greek. There's a difference; there's a distinction. When it says He's with ton, that means He's with a specific, definite, particular person. But then when it says kai Theos, and God was the Word, there… the word God is what we call a qualitative noun, a descriptive noun. It's talking about His nature. Okay. So that means He's not the God He's with. He's with someone called God, and He's God in nature. That's what actually John 1 is saying. Okay, so that makes sense to me also, because if that… that… that makes… you know… admit… right? You said He is in the nature of God, but He's… He's with God, right? Yeah. So, but you understand what that means, or you didn't understand the point? No, I did. That means the word God is used in two different senses for two distinct entities, proving the point I made that just because you quote a verse that says God appeared in the flesh, that doesn't necessarily mean the Father. Which part of that you didn't get? Okay, I can see that. That's fine. So can you now give me a verse where it says the Father became flesh? So when Philip asked Him, "Show us the Father," I'm glad you quoted that. Read John 14:7-11 to see that actually doesn't prove your case. If you have known me, you shall have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him… Keep reading. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou, Show us the Father? So He is the person of the Father. You stop… Don't stop… Read… Believest thou not that I am in the… I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doth the works. See, this is your burial, because He didn't say, "Believest thou not that I am the Father, and the Father is me?" The Father's in me; I'm in the Father. He wouldn't say that because He's in the flesh. Jesus also says He's in us. The Spirit is in us. God is in us. According to your logic, that means I am the Godhead. Don't butcher Jesus's words, because in that same passage… Now read John 14:20-21. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. I am in the Father; I'm in you; you're in me. So if the Father being in Jesus makes Him the Father, then Jesus being in me and you, that makes me Jesus, according to your logic? No, but we are the body of Christ, so we have that same… That's not what I asked you, but that's the same thing. We can claim that same… So you say to everyone, "I am Jesus Christ and God the Father?" Say, "No, no, no, no, no." What I'm going to say to that is, Paul also says that we're the body of Christ. Can the eyes say to the hand that they have no need of thee? Irrelevant to the point. How is that… Still doesn't make Paul Jesus. You can't… I didn't say Paul is… I said collectively we make up the… Understand my question. You're not gonna let me explain myself then. I can't, because you're not understanding my point. Galatians 2:20. Read it. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Who lives in Paul, the individual, Christ. So understand your logic so that then you can respond, 'cause you're not responding to my objection. If the Father being in Jesus makes Him the Father, then Jesus being in Paul would make him Jesus. Your argument is pathetic. No, no… Can you give me another argument? Right. So are we in the image of God? So what… what does that mean? What is your take on, "Let us make man in our image"? What do you think was happening? That's the Trinity. That's a passage that's your nightmare and a blessing for me. But… but then… okay. So on… Let's take that scripture, and then let's take where it says, "The Lord said unto my Lord." What about it? It's basically saying the same thing. It's… it's the Father talking to Himself in the dispensation as the… He's not talking to Himself. Yes. What… Wait, wait, wait. God doesn't talk to Himself. That's what you're telling me? No, He's not talking to Himself. He said… because there was no body, He swore by Himself. You want me to go to Genesis 1 and use that to bury you, to show it's not God speaking to Himself as an individual person? You think it was another person there with Him? Have you… Yes. Have you read Genesis 1:26? Yes. The man that's in God's image. How many persons is He? What do you mean, how many persons is He? See, you haven't read it. This is why you wasted my time. No, go back to Genesis 1:26. Read that. The man that was created in the image of God was male and female. It was them, right? In fact, let me test your Bible knowledge. The… I… what I'm asking sometimes… hold on… if you're patient, I'll show you what I'm asking because you went to Genesis 1, you ran to it, so I'm burying you in Genesis 1. The name Adam, that name was given to who exactly at creation? The male. Go to Genesis 5:1 and 2. See, you don't know the Bible, brother, because this is going to be your burial now. You quoted Genesis 1; now I'm going to use Genesis 1 to bury you, friend, lovingly. Hope you listen. Listen. Show me… This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; male and fe… This doesn't prove your point. Read verse 2. Male and female created he them: and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day when they were created. So the… was called Adam? Oh my good… Yo, this is not a… on… you just got busted. You just said a couple of minutes earlier, "No, the name Adam is for the male." It is. Now admit you were wrong, and you are an ignoramus. The name Adam, right, given to who? The male, right? No. Read… To who did He call Adam? Okay, He called the male and the female Adam. The reason why He called the male and the female Adam is because Adam is the father of all people, so that it's his… his genealogy. Yes, it does. Instead of being humble, saying, "Look, I'm in ignorance; I was wrong," this is not going to be you. So I'm going to ask you the question again. The Adam that God created in His image, male and female, right? Right. So now we got it. Now you're being honest. So I want everyone to hear now… He admits male and female were… Adam was described to both male and female. That's talking about all… You admit they're both in His image, right? Yes, that's true. Yes, image… IM… You now see how that buried you, just like Adam is more than one person yet one Adam. The God Who made Adam plural is more than one person but one God. That's your burial. That's why… speaking in the plural, but you wouldn't get it. So… so my God is multiple gods? Is Adam multiple Adams, or one Adam? All right, so let me just ask this question… I'm answering your question… answer that… Is Adam dancing? You're dancing around my question. You're dancing around my question. I'm answering your question with a question, like Jesus did. Is Adam multiple Adams, or one Adam? He is multiple Adams, because he multip… No. Isn't Genesis 2:24 say they're one flesh, and they're both called Adam? So is Adam multiple Adams, or one Adam? He's one Adam. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Okay. So you just buried yourself again. Why would God need to be multiple gods if He's more than one person? He can be more than one person and still one God, like the Adam is more than one person, one Adam. Your logic… So all right, so then you're just ascribing basically titles to God then. So these persons are things that He's done that are… that… What can you show me where Jesus is the Father? You're going on tangents. Get back to… Show me where Jesus… No, seriously. So is God one God in three distinctive persons, or is He one God? God is one God and three… three distinct eternal persons, like Adam is one Adam, but He's more than one person. You use Genesis 1:26. I didn't quote Genesis 1:26. You did. So I'm using it against you. So we have still… So what I believe is that Jesus is the Father, because you just got shut down. No, no, no. I didn't say… I never said Jesus was the Father. I never said that. What I have is this… Did you not say Jesus is the Incarnation of the Father? That means when Jesus was on Earth, that's the Father as a man in the flesh. Yeah, as a man in the flesh. Okay. Can you show me where the Bible says Jesus is the Father? In like scripture that I showed you though. And then… Do you have anything else? Where did they want to pick up stones to stone Him because He made Himself God? You mean in John 8:56-59? Yeah, that's not gonna help your case either. But that's… you… Can you read John 8:16-19 also? It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself; and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. How many men does it require for the law to be fulfilled? Two. So it says two men, right? Yes. So and He says I'm one man and My Father's the other man. Correct. Well, not man, Spirit. No, He said men because the word anthropos can be used generically for persons. So… so now Father is a man. Now did I say it, or did Jesus say it? Read the words. And if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men… men… right? Who are the two men now? Jesus will tell you. Go ahead. I am one that bear witness of myself, right? Okay. And the Father that sent me beareth witness. Okay. So He said Your Law requires two men. I am one, and the Father's the other. Because if you are listening, not pretending you're listening, the word man can have a broader meaning, meaning person. Stop playing games with me. So if the Father and the Son are two men, two persons, that buries you, because according to you they're not two persons; it's one person who became flesh. Explain that for me, according to you. Jesus is not a distinct person from the Father. Jesus is the human incarnation of the Father. So it's one person in the flesh, but Jesus said, "No, I am one person, one man; My Father is the second person, second man." So we two men satisfy the demand of the law. Explain that light of your heresy. Why? So why can't He just be speaking as a human man under the… under the… because… to you… I'm answering you… that person that's animating that body is the Father. So it's not two men; it's one person, one man. It's like me going before the judge and saying, "Judge, you require two witnesses. Well, I as a husband am one witness, and I as a brother am the second witness." So the Brother Sam and the husband Sam, that's two witnesses. See, that's your logic. Well, that's… that's what I get. Yeah. Oh, so you feel like… like God… I want everyone to hear this. So God… what God did was… He's saying, "Hey, even though I'm one person, the man Me is testifying, and the Spirit Me is testifying. So even though it's one person, but because I'm testifying in two different modes, that's two men." That's deceit. That's not… that's… the law requires more than one person. Didn't the law say He's one? So it's not deceit. No, the law says that the word one can apply to multiple persons, like Genesis 2:24, where it says, "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh." So the word one does encompass more than one person. So… here… hear, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one… is the same one… The word one does not mean single person… part… even in that scripture. Hear, O Israel, the… yes, because in the penud, that same Moses shows God is there, the angel of the Lord is there, and the Spirit is there. And the angel, distinct from God, is God. Exodus 23:20-23. But before we go there, before I use that against you, God cannot lie. God is faithful. When He appeals to the law and shows He's fulfilling it, He's not lying. So when He says the law that I gave you requires two persons to testify, I'm going to then satisfy My own demands. I'm going to give you two persons. Father is one person; I am the second person. But according to you, that's a lie, because it's not two persons; it's one person in two different modes. Anyway, so how is He God then? Because He is God in nature, one with His Father, just like Eve is Adam in nature, one with Adam. So He's God in nature, one with… Is Eve Adam in nature? I'll ponder that. So how many Thrones is in heaven then? How many ents of that Throne? There's one throne, but how many sit on it? Okay, so it's one throne, but three sit on… How many? Revelation 22:1. It's only two. It's only two. No, there's also the Spirit that proceeds from the Throne. Yeah, it proceeds… You said sit… If the Spirit is proceeding from the Throne, that means it's there on the Throne, unless you think it's beneath the Throne. I don't know. That's why I said I just said two. Two. Okay. No. Revelation 22:1 and John 15:26. And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and the Lamb, who sat upon the throne. That's verse one. God and… and the Lamb. Right. The Lamb. Yeah. And what is that rivers of living water that comes from the throne? Yeah, that's… that's a picture of the Spirit. I know that. Yeah, because that's John 7:38-39, right? Yeah. Now go to John 15:26. Oh wow, turn right to it. Wow. Yep. Because the Lord's trying to open your heart, man. And the Comforter, which I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. Is the Father in the Throne? Yes. And the Spirit proceeds from the Father. So if He comes out of the Father, and if the Father's on the Throne, the Spirit is coming out of where? The Throne, I guess. Yeah. So did you now see why I said there are three? Three. Yes. They're not the… because I'm going to prove to you they're not the same person. Because now go to Revelation 3:21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Yeah. So when I sit with Jesus on His throne, does that make me the same person as Jesus? But… but He said He was one with… exactly like we are one with one another, but doesn't make us the same person. Go to John 16:12-13. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them as yet. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. Now 13 says He will not speak on His own; He'll only speak what He hears. Hears from whom? Jesus. But I thought the Holy Spirit is not a person. How does a non-person hear anything and say anything? I mean…
Yeah, I mean, exactly. I never looked at it that way though. Yeah, well, hopefully now. Never looked at it like, okay, there, like it's a it's an entity being spoken to. That means you're wrong; you need to repent and accept the Trinity. But there's only one God, though, and three distinct—the God that we worship is only one, but that doesn't mean he has to be one person. The one God who's infinitely greater than creation is one God, but he's so Majestic; he exists eternally as three persons who love one another and fellowship with one another. They're not the same person, but they're not different gods. That's the teaching of the Bible, unless you want to make God limited like you. Well, you can only be one person and one being. No, God says, "I'm unlike you; don't compare me to you. My thoughts are higher than yours; my ways are higher than yours." So the one God is unlike creation; his existence will be much greater than ours. So he's one God, and that one God eternally—his Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Let me share another passage where the Spirit speaks, and he's God who speaks: 2 Samuel 23:1-3. "Now these be the last words of David, David the son of Jesse, said, that said, said in the who was raised up on high, the anointed of God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, the spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue." So the Spirit speaks again, yeah, and David is now speaking and writing the words that the Spirit gave him. Yeah, but now notice when the Spirit speaks, who speaks? We read two again, read two again, and then three: "The spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of—okay, the God of Israel said, the rock of Israel spake to me." Wait, so hold on, you confuse me. David said the spirit of God, the Lord spoke to me, but now he says it's the God of Israel speaking. That makes sense, though. It does make sense because the Spirit is God, right, who speaks, and yet he's one with God the Father, but he's not God the Father, right? I'm gonna look into this; this is really good, Sam. This was really, really good, Sam.
No, I appreciate it. I don't mind objections if they're sincere. Someone's coming hostile now. Bring your objections next time. Say, "Well, here, here are arguments against the Trinity." Let me know, and God willing, I'll bring you on, on, and I'll be more than happy to show you these arguments are pathetic; they've been answered. In fact, if you go to my YouTube channel, just put in "Trinity," you're going to see dozens of videos responding and defending, and my blog, dozens of articles. So, but you come up and say, "Hey, Sam, I got some objections in Trinity," I'll be here to serve you, brother.