Transcription
[music] This is a global skills podcast. Conversations that shape the future of work and learning. We're exploring how we close [music] the skills gap and build a future where everyone has the chance to thrive. From education to business, connecting people, ideas, and opportunities [music] that drive change. It's about collaboration, curiosity, and creating real impact today. Because every [music] skill learned brings us one step closer to a more inclusive world. The Global Skills Podcast where learning and opportunity come together.
Welcome to the Global Skills Podcast. Today we have Anne Hubbert is the head of learning support and seen at Bankrooft School in London where she has spent over a decade shaping inclusive education and championing evidence-based support for neurodiverse learners with deep expertise in assessment access arrangements and compliance under the Equality Act 2010. She advises on effective, reasonable adjustments that enable every student to thrive and is also a passionate advocate for rethinking how we assess young people, challenging systems built around outdated notions of average. Her work connects schools, teachers, and families in creating environments where neurodiversity is understood, supported, and celebrated. And you're very, very welcome to the episode.
>> Thank you, Vanessa. It's great to be here. So I would love to start off and understand and I ask most guests this question. How did you end up in the career path that you're in?
Well, I think my career path it wasn't a straight path into education. Back in the olden days, I decided after my A levels that I didn't want to go to university and so I went straight into the city and started my career as an EA executive assistant in investment banking sort of mergers and acquisitions and then onto syndicated loans and then at that point I transferred onto the sales and trading desk trading in US government bonds and my pathway into that and actually it's it's interesting with this podcast today because I utilized my soft skills which we've really got to sort of champion with students now in as much as I used to play a lot of tennis and the client entertainment from the trading desk when clients used to come from overseas we would entertain via playing tennis and then go out for dinner and I would always be called on to take part in that because I could play tennis and so it's like doors opening and then the head of the trading desk because I was doing this so so much asked if I would like to come on as a sort of starting at the bottom and learning the trade as it were and that's really where my career took off in terms of trading and selling US government bonds to central banks and to other sort of corporations. I did that for a few years, loved it and then started my family. I then while my children were quite young embarked on a law degree and after two years felt that I couldn't balance my life with that. So sort of took a step back and went into learning British sign language which I loved which was one day a week at college and from there that was my start into education. From there I went into a girls grammar school to support a deaf child which involved signing all the lessons working with that student but also working with the teachers in sort of being a goeteen between the the student and the teachers. and I worked with her from age 11 until she left after doing A levels and then took a sort of side step I guess into the private sector and specializing more in special educational needs and everything to do with send and that's really in a nutshell as you can see not a straight path but that was how I've got in in into education.
>> and I think maybe if we we hone in on this point because it's incredible how diverse to go from trading to law to then education but from a different lens and now to mainstream primary maybe my question is really around I think there's a lot of pressure on young people today to and there's there's always been this pressure choose your path choose the degree and choose the path and now I think today it's even impossible to do that what would you say young people listening today.
>> I I think today I mean our young people certainly the students that I work with that is our future of our young workforce and it is a brave new world. I know there's been this term brave new world sort of sort of spoken about a lot but it really is our students that have had to navigate there's two aspects of it. The first is the virtual world. They've had to navigate a virtual world living through the COVID pandemic where you they could become isolated. they've had online teaching. The human interaction hasn't been there and so their soft skills, these human centric skills that we talk about haven't really been developed. Add into that mix the rise of AI and students have to think now outside the box in how can I promote my brand as a student to make me more attractive to employers. So that's one section I think that they've got to navigate. And the other section which might be another podcast in itself is our awareness of everything neuroscience and with that comes an increased rating in diagnosis of neurodyiverse profiles and that brings a different skill set for these bright children that have a neurodyiverse profile because that is nothing to do with the IQ but it's a way of how do they sell their skill set to employers and also on the other hand how employers need to recognize and hone in and support that workforce with their diversity of thought in making workplace adjustments. So, it's a huge area that I think our young people now have have to sort of navigate against and our role as educators need to develop the skills that employers are looking for right from the go in secondary education.
think recently or so recently to this week there's been a lot of or you can always see a lot of bad press about AI and I said you know we do have to it's here to stay we have to fall in love with it we have to work with it has to be our best friend I think the time yeah, the times this week published an article where the OBR were projecting a potential threat of a 40% of our labor we're losing our labor skills over the next 10 years to AI primarily in the sort of administration secretarial jobs But that will have a knock-on effect I feel and I think it's already being seen with entry- levelvel jobs. So the entrylevel jobs graduates would normally apply for where they would be able to learn it would be a pathway to learning the industry of their choice. So that would involve maybe report writing, some analytical work, research work, but those jobs are really few and far between now because of the role of AI and AI can really do that role for employers. And so with I guess on running it alongside that, the fact that the UK economy is not growing, a lot of companies are holding back on hiring and certainly reducing their entry-level roles. So it's something that we have to be as educators have to be aware of. And so how do we support our students I guess to develop their brand and to make them more attractive in the job market and that comes back to our honing in on their skills, developing their skills, their soft skills, but working alongside AI.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and it's the wild west at the moment.
>> It is, isn't it? Because if you think about it,
>> we don't actually have the full regulation in place by government yet.
>> Yeah.
>> We're using it in education and industry. The question I I would love to ask you because you're you're raising such an important point and we know early talent unemployment rates are rising. If it is the role of education and industry to kind of combine forces and come up with the solution.
>> Yeah,
>> there's a very big gap at the moment between like industry are just about keeping up with what they think they'll need. But if you think about the curriculum and this is not just in the UK in most countries that curriculum was designed years ago.
>> Exactly.
>> There's such a disconnect. How can we ever close that gap?
I think it was there was a survey in fact I wrote it down in 2023 IBM conducted a survey to determine the most critical skills that are required in the workforce and it's really interesting because if you'd asked this question 10 years ago it would have been completely the other way around. So in 2023, the the report stated that 42% of employees are looking for time management skills and the ability to prioritize. Compared to the lower end of that report at 28% looking for proficiency in STEM. Now 10 years ago, that would have been completely the other way around. So as educators and in the classroom, we've got to look at these soft skills. And there is there are ways that that we can implement this in terms of time management and organization. I think when we're looking at a student as a brand, we have to educate them in AI, but how to use AI to support their learning. So for example, AI can be really useful for reducing a lot of content that they are asked to study. It can be useful in preparing revision notes for tests which in the past students have had to take a lot of time in preparing those. So if that is saving time, it's then allowing the student to learn and apply that knowledge. So that is a supportive way that students can use AI. when they're going for jobs, they're not going to be expected to to know the sort of the real um complexities of AI, but I think it's important that they are able to demonstrate how AI can support their learning or save them time. Now on the flip side as educators we've now got to I feel look at how we increase the skills of our students in areas like critical thinking leadership collaboration problem solving everyone talks about EQ it's going to be hugely important and a self-awareness you know the empathy skills and these can be developed within the classroom but it means delivering bring a different type of lesson rather than just wrote learning or learn and just reproduce.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think what's happening for example in the Irish market, the department of education have released a skills and competency framework to be adapted by secondary schools. But the actual connection between the framework and the curriculum hasn't yet happened. And really we're we're getting to a point and look obviously we work with the skills passport for higher education and the whole idea behind it is can we simplify it for the student or the learner where they understand their hard and human skills because I was surprised by this when we built our skills taxonomy I would have thought there was a few thousand skills there's actually 55,000 skills.
>> so it's impossible to expect a teacher or a student to know the breath of that but AI actually it's another advantage of AI it can guide us on that and then if a person knows their skills gap now they're very aware of the career pathway options they're aware of courses they can take and but I what my fear is I think in a lot of secondary schools still around the world it's quite traditional terms of skills acquisition career advice and what what are your thoughts.
>> as as educators in the classroom we can adapt our teaching in terms of integrating both skill sets. So as I've said before, you know, using AI to reduce content and improve sort of the speed at which revision cards or revision notes are created. But what we have to look at is improving our verbal skills and that can be harnessed within the classroom in terms of asking verbal questions, asking students to verbally present a sort of topic to the rest of the class to encourage debate. So I think a lot of these things could be put into place. Maybe there's a debating society. This needs to come back to the forefront. So the verbal skills need to be improved and along with that you'll have group work, teamwork, the collaboration, it can be all taught within the classroom while still delivering the content. So rather than just you know for example write a passage on some biology for example answer some questions which you go and you use your textbook and you just look it up that get students to present the topic as if they were teaching the class using a whiteboard using markers and they are then interacting with their peers and it also enhances their understanding and their learning because what we've got to also ensure we're doing is allowing ing our students to be able to apply the knowledge they have to different scenarios rather than just want it back. So I think there's different techniques, sorry, as educators that we can bring into the classroom.
And what are you hearing from young people at the moment? Like is there a fear about their future or are they feeling well look I I'm in secondary school. I'll go on and do college. I don't need to worry about my future career. What What are you hearing?
>> I I mean the school that I work in was is very traditional in terms of A levels to university. That was the sort of the route that everybody took. Now we're seeing a lot more apprenticeship applications. We're seeing a lot more apprenticeship degrees. We are seeing a lot more students having conversations with our careers advisor in terms of what are my options if I don't want to go to university. If I'm not looking at a subject that I know I want to take on, for example, law or medicine, what are my options? Is it worth me going to university to then come out with debt and therefore not find a job? And I think students are certainly our sixth formers are definitely having those conversations with our careers department and they are raising them themselves. So there is an awareness. I think we can still do more in terms of the social skills. I see a lot of students still with their mobile phones. I think schools have got to they've tried to ban mobile phones, but I think it's sneaking back in. That really isolates students in terms of developing relationships. It's just to go off on a bit of a tangent. I mean, we could I often think about this with dating apps. And so, young people have dating apps in in order to meet people online. they lose the ability to strike up a conversation which is so important as a skill. We take it for granted but actually, we shouldn't because I think one thing the virtual COVID world has highlighted is this inability for young people to see a stranger and just strike up a conversation. You know when I think about my day my my friend's era you'd go to a pub, you'd go to a bar and you could have a conversation. Whereas now, the thought of meeting somebody without actually texting them online is frightening for some for some young people. And I think we've really got to get back to basics in terms of being able to establish those conversations, those relationships, taking that further into the workplace where you then network, the ability to network face to face. AI can't do that. So those skills we really need to it's almost like it's gone 360 and we're coming back round again that we need to really support our young people with this social integration again and move away from a virtual online life.
It's it is it's a full circle because as you describe that I'm thinking about when I finished um the national exams and from school I was waiting for for college I bought all these little stationary sets a couple hundred and I went door to door selling and and I remember the experience it was really daunting obviously you get every reaction but you learn these basic fundamental skills for life that when you're online you don't you don't And I think I work with with sort of the sick form students that put together their personal statements and I try and encourage you know whatever they've done academically or what lecture they've been to or what book have they read what have they got out of it what skill set did that enhance in them if they were running a society for example which you know at school and they want to put that in their personal statement it's what can you demonstrate that you gained from that the ability to listen to work as a teacher to collaborate. The ability to actually talk to senior leadership teachers as well as students. So this sort of managing up and managing down is a skill that we have to try and enhance. And I think those skills are going to be attractive to employers. I always look at students. I always say think of yourself as a brand. What can you do to enhance your brand that's going to make you more attractive in the job market? And when you're young, that's really hard. I mean, as an ex-recruiter, um, yeah, definitely when you're dealing with young people, they don't feel that they're a brand. They're very aware of not having the work experience. And, and I think it's really interesting this full circle idea where who would have thought, as you said, 10 years ago, we would be today where it's it is about the human skills like AI can't currently replace that. Ironically, the early talent or the graduates that are coming out of our educational system have probably had the least human skills development in the last few decades.
>> Exactly. I would just and it's really interesting when when we talk about work experience and and I think graduates can don't underestimate doing a month or some work. It hasn't got to be really, you know, swinging from the rafters work experience. It can be a work experience working as a barista or something for a couple of weeks or a month in the summer holidays or something like that because you've got those you're developing those those personal skills. So those the sort of a sort of a number of smaller work experience experiences can almost add to your CV in terms of showing that the skill sets that the human skill sets that you've developed. M and I I really want to leave listeners that are unemployed at whatever age to say there is hope like oh there is
>> are going to be created what what is very encouraging through all the interviews we're having is that the message is just keep learning keep research it doesn't matter if you're 21 or 41 or learn because
>> keep following the road and the path and and the turnings whether you're turning right or left and if a door opens walk through it because I honestly I in my career have changed so much but for each role you are learning more skills and I don't think it's as bleak as as some of the sort of papers and and sort of commentators would would have us believe there is still a huge place for the human skills for people's skills and I think that they're going to be in more and more demand as we go into the future. I don't believe AI is going to run the world. But I think we do need to love it and we need to be able to use it to support ourselves and make life easier so that we can then project the human skills forward.
How much do you think career choices and university decisions and apprenticehship decisions is down to instinct?
>> I think a lot of it is down to instinct. I would always say to to students whether they're looking at A-level choices, whether they're looking at university choices is you have to do something that interests you and that you are passionate about. There is no point in doing A levels or a university course if you're not interested in it because you won't be successful in it. I think going back to just looking going to open days at university. I say to my students when they're they're looking at which university should I go to. It's a gut feel. I always say to them it's like buying a house. You walk onto a campus and you get a feel of whether you are going to be happy at that university and you have to go with it. I really believe in following your instincts and your gut feel about things because you know if you feel that I'm going to go to this university because that's the right thing to do and I'm going to study this course because you know then I I'll come out and then I'll definitely get a job. I think that's shortsighted. I think also we mustn't look too far ahead. I think that with university it gives us the skill a skill set but it it's not set in stone. Your career path doesn't have to be set in stone. And you know, life throws curve balls at you all the time. And so if it throws you a curveball, you have to have the resilience which you can develop to be able to say, okay, this is the situation now. So I'm going to go left or I'm going to go right. And that's exciting. That's really exciting. It means, you know, life life is exciting.
Couldn't agree more. These are really nice words to share because I think when you're young this this maybe it's the the system that we currently have where it's pressure to do exams. Yes. Learn and pass and do the best you can and then all of a sudden you know in essence what we're saying is enjoy the ride.
>> I know. I know. And it it's tragic because I when I see my so my year where they're doing GCSE so they're doing like nine or 10 subjects which I always think in a way is harder than A levels because you're doing subjects that you really don't care about but you've got to do them. And then so they work really hard, they get the results, they do really well, they come back for lower six in the sixth form when they start their A levels and no one really cares about their GCSEs. And I always breaks my heart because it I always feel that they need to rejoice for a year on how hard they worked before doing the A levels. It's the system we have.
Is there room for improvement?
>> I think there absolutely is. I think the education or the curriculum needs to move in line with technology development. I think doing 10 GCSEs probably isn't particularly constructive. I think there's other courses that that students could take on rather than just doing 10. But I think it will change. I think it takes time which is a shame because as always I think governments are always or ministers are always slow to the uptake and and it's the people that are actually in the industries that can see what needs to happen. But of course then it's like them bringing government policy etc to actually act in a timely manner.
In the Middle East in China AI is already not only in secondary but it's in primary. They have it in the curriculum even in America. It's um the time and especially if we've I know we have listeners from government it it's now and I think there's a big opportunity to create roundts where you have and it can be virtual. I don't think we all need to be in person if need and sharing and one thing I'm very passionate about is this like common skills language connecting skills to career pathways to jobs to learning so that we're all we're recognizing the same skills. We're we're analyzing all the pathways. We're adding new skills monthly as they're being developed by industry. And that's the role that government and industry need to play to to give education the information they need to develop.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. to support that pathway 100%.
What is the future? And I know this is a really tricky question, but if you were to kind of crystal ball educational system in a few years time or maybe the question should be what would you like to have seen happen?
>> I think what I would like to see from my experience actually, is not just educating students but educating parents. We have a lot of parents that have unrealistic expectations of their children uh that put a lot of pressure on their children and I would like to see more work done in terms of involving parents in that educating process. I think I would like to see more vocational topics taught alongside the traditional subjects. I think I'd like to definitely keep parents more in the loop. This is a school's policy. I think I would like to see more information sharing in terms of the curriculum, in terms of expectations with parents so that children can be supported. So you have this sort of cohesive support from a child in school and then when they go home parents are are more aware of actually what the curriculum entails and can support their child along. I don't see I see quite a bit of a disconnect in my area in terms of parental expectation and reality expectation of that child and I see a lot of pressure put on children which can you know enhance mental health issues and self-esteem and I think if there was more education for parents maybe that the it would lessen that on their children. I don't know if that's answered the question actually.
Well, I think you've raised a really good point because again, a lot of professionals were were parents.
>> Yeah.
>> And um this is new uncharted territory ter you know, we can't say 20 years ago when I went to school and did a degree and you know it it's changed and and you're right like not only do our kids need development human skills like we need development and understanding the new career pathways. In fact, I did. You're just reminding me of a conversation recently with someone high up in a school and they were saying to me that a lot of the parents were sort of, you know, the top performing students. The expectation was that they would go into law and medicine.
>> But the kids are becoming more aware that there might not be many lawyer roles or at the very least if you're coming out of university, your chances of getting a graduate role in that could be less. And the parents, as you say, they haven't been educated. So they're they don't really comprehend the other pathways. And the other thing I was going to bring up actually is the stigma that's been there around apprenticeship programs. You know, I think that's changing. I think the stigma certainly from from what I experience with with my students, the stigma is definitely reducing on that. And in fact, it's almost like, well, if you can get on an apprenticeship program, you've done really, really well because you're going to get the support financially as well as learning a trade. And I think going back to that learning a trade or learning from within an organization, how you know is going to be more beneficial, more productive actually for for that for that student, for that career path.
We have a closing tradition to this podcast where I ask two questions but you only have to answer one.
>> Oh my goodness.
>> Hoping you'll answer the first one as well. Um the first question is have you a skill that you were using earlier on in your career when you were younger that you don't use anymore? And I guess my question is do you still trade? And then my second question is for people that are listening that are unemployed, you know, and could even be mid-career, maybe they're at the point of thinking, gosh, should I make a move and you've clearly done it so well. What should they do? What's the advice?
>> Well, I think the skill that I really enjoyed actually, you may be surprised, was my sign language, and I loved that. And I don't do enough of that now. I I did I worked at the college. I got up to interpreter level. I thoroughly enjoyed working with the deaf community, working with this deaf student and sort of since my new role I suppose in the last I don't know six years or whatever I haven't used that as much. I sometimes use it with my children because I did teach them some of it which can be quite useful in if we're in a crowd and we want to communicate. It's quite handy. But that's something that I would like to improve or hone in on. Again, I think my my signing for for for people who are either unemployed, I would say look at your local college in terms of courses that are run in terms of getting a getting training. There are adult course uh colleges. It might be one day a week, it might be an evening, but I think if you're at a crossroads, I would always say look at getting a new skill and the way to think, you know, what should I learn? and it's a new school but I don't know where to go. look at your local colleges at the prospectus and they will have courses there and something there may you know sort of be of interest and then go down that road train get that skill and that may open another door so I definitely you know, just look at training and learning learning as as much as you possibly can.
>> I couldn't agree more with you and I think you know that's that's the hope or the optimism we want to give people.
>> Thank you.
>> And make it happen you can make this.
And and that's I I I think that's the message we're getting across every time we're speaking to a leader from education or industry is like have hope, continue lifelong learning. And I think if I can take anything from this interview today, I would love what you have sort of, you know, magic wand the future. I would love for all of that to happen because an inclusive
>> place for early talent today to be really optimistic about the future.
>> Definitely. Thank you so much for.
>> It was great. It was great to chat to you. It's a pleasure.
>> Thank you, An.
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