Transcription
All right, chat. So now what I'm gonna try to do is teach y'all how to convince anyone of anything.
So, a couple weeks ago, we had a wonderful guest on stream, a guy named Jimmy from Philly. And people were very surprised because, you know, Jimmy from Philly was sort of introduced as like a die-hard Trump supporter. So people thought that he was going to be like very irrational and like all that kind of stuff. And so, what I've found is that when people try to like convince people of things, they do a bad job. And so today, what we're going to talk about is like a basic guide to like convincing people of things and communicating with people, okay? And what I'm going to share with you all is a methodology that I use that will enhance your own communication.
A lot of people were surprised and were like, "Oh, like I can't believe that Dr. K was able to talk to Jimmy from Philly." And like, that didn't go where I expected it. It didn't go where I expected it either. But it turns out that there's a lot of stuff that you can learn about communication that can really help you convince people of things that, you know, they may be resistant to understand.
So, we're going to take a a case from our Reddit. Okay, my mother refuses to get vaccinated and it's causing obvious and it's causing obvious strain in our relationships. Um, so I want to preface this by saying, uh, I'm a 27-year-old, married, and have my own apartment with my wife. So it's not like I'm trapped living with my parents. Anyway, on to the actual topic.
I came here to post. My mom has slowly become further right over the years, which is completely fine. I don't agree with all of her political opinions, but everyone is entitled to their own politics. I just try not to talk about it. Once COVID happened, she radicalized quickly, buying into QAnon and other conspiracy-esque theories. I thought, I think that she needed to cope with everything, blah, blah, blah. She retweeted too much disinformation to the point she was banned from Twitter. Um, so she's been showing me bombshell videos saying things like, "If the vaccine works so well, why are people with the vaccine worried about me not having it? What happened to my body, my choice?" I still love my mom.
What set her off recently was one of my relatives sending an email that she was going to have a housewarming party, but everyone in attendance needed to be fully vaccinated. My mom took this as a personal attack on her because everyone knows she isn't vaccinated. And she is, to my knowledge, the only one in my extended family on that side who is not. I was on the phone with her last night for almost an hour while she vented about being treated like a leper and everyone hating her. I tried to get her to understand that if she just swallowed her pride and got the vaccine, everything could go back to normal to some extent, but she, unsurprisingly, didn't want to hear it. She believed all along that she is healthy and does not need the vaccine. And now there is evidence that the vaccine is dangerous, so she has dug in her heels even more.
I'm sure that there's no convincing her to get vaccinated, but it's also causing me a great deal of personal stress. She is burning bridges with people close to her just so she can stubbornly say, "I told you so." On the minuscule chance that there is some global conspiracy going on, it's painful to see how unhappy she is, and I don't have a solution. I guess I'm not really sure what I'm asking here, but maybe someone has advice for how I can mentally deal with the situation. If you've actually read through this, I appreciate you taking the time.
So, this is a great post and is unfortunately a really common problem. So, we're going to take a step back and I'm going to share with you all my perspective on like how to convince people of things, okay? So, the first thing to understand is, as a psychiatrist, it is my job to convince people of things that they don't want to do. That's like literally my job. So, I'll give you all an example.
The best evidence-based treatment for psychotic disorders is a medication called clozapine. So, clozapine has been shown through numerous clinical trials to outperform any other antipsychotic agent. So, it like reduces the severity of hallucinations and delusions and all that good stuff. Also improves mood the most, may improve some degree of cognitive functions. The problem is that clozapine has some really terrible side effects, like the worst side effects of any, well, I don't know about any medication I've ever prescribed, but like it's like definitely up there. So, clozapine will cause you to gain 50 to 100 pounds, will cause you to feel like cognitively dulled and slowed, so you can't do creative work, will make you sleepy. And the most bizarre, um, side effect of clozapine, which makes people absolutely hate it, is it suppresses your swallowing reflex.
This is something that's really interesting because it's something that we really take for granted. So, our body has, and our brain and mouth has, a reflex that causes us to swallow our saliva at periodic intervals. So, once you suppress that, can you guess what happens? People start to drool. Like, literally, like there will be saliva like leaking out of their mouth. So, sometimes I'll have someone who's got severe mental illness and they've tried other medications, and despite on those other medications, it doesn't seem to work. They get kicked out of their house because they're delusional, they like, you know, get into fights with other people. It's really sad. And so, sometimes what I really have to do is convince them to try clozapine. And it's tough because like, it involves convincing someone to literally like, "You're going to be cognitively dulled, you're going to gain 100 pounds, and you're going to drool." Like, it's going to be terrible. It's an awful medication. Also, it is a very good medication. It's part of why, you know, western medicine is hard. So, like, and so I practiced that convincing people how to do this, and I was pretty successful. And a lot of people get on clozapine and they tend to do a good job.
I also do this as an addiction psychiatrist in terms of like convincing people to stop using substances. So, here's kind of what I've learned about how to convince someone. And, and I'm pretty sure, and I've convinced anti-vaxxers to take vaccines. Um, you know, I've convinced a lot of people to do things that they're very resistant to do. So, here's basically like my solution or like my playbook to how to convince someone. And I've done like a lot of this successfully. It doesn't always work, but I think it's pretty effective.
So, the first thing to understand is that proving someone else wrong is a terrible way to convince them that you're right. So, somewhere along the way, we as a society thought that debate is like a good way to convince people, right? So, like, we have this assumption in our mind that if I debate someone and I win the debate, then like the other party should be convinced. Like, showing them why they're wrong and why I'm correct should logically result in them changing their behavior. But this is absolutely incorrect. It's just not how it works, okay?
So, I want you guys to think for a second about what happens in a debate. So, if you like go on YouTube and you watch debates between like people's like, let's say like, um, you know, Richard Dawkins or like, um, you know, Christopher Hitchens or like Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or, you know, whoever. Basically, you've got two people that are debating each other, and like, how often do they convince each other that they're wrong? Like, it's like damn close to zero. So, if we really look at debate, the purpose of debate is for two people to disagree with each other. Or like, let's look at political debate. So, how often does, let's say, a liberal candidate convince a conservative candidate that the conservative candidate is wrong? Like, never. How often does a conservative candidate convince a liberal candidate that they're wrong? The answer is never. So, if you think about debate for a second, so take a step back and think about what's the purpose of debate? It's not to convince the other person. It's to convince the audience. It's to convince, hopefully, the neutral parties that are listening. So, the first thing that I want you all to dispense with is any kind of debate or argument if you actually want to convince someone of something, okay? It is the worst way to convince someone.
So, if you prove them wrong, you're not going to convince them you're right. In fact, you're going to do the absolute opposite. And oftentimes, what happens in situations like this is the more evidence you have on your side, the more the other person feels bullied and persecuted because they can't defend themselves. But just because they can't defend themselves doesn't mean that they're going to change their mind. They're just going to feel attacked, and you're going to make them feel like an idiot, which is going to cause them to dig their heels in more and push back against what you're trying to convince them of. So, just let go of like trying to convince them through argument because it's not going to work.
Second thing is, let go of judgment, okay? So, most people like assume that they're right. But what we, so like, I think I'm right, the other person thinks that they're right. And if you go into a conversation like convinced that the other person is an idiot and is wrong, your chances of convincing them are like very, very low. Instead, what you need to do is go in assuming that they are right and do your level best to understand their perspective. Now, how does this help? It does a couple of things. The first, and I think most important one, is something called emotional mirroring.
Back when I was like working in the emergency room, like an emergency psychiatry, which is something I really enjoyed doing, like I even did extra, you know, I would work like weekends and stuff in hospitals. So, in the emergency room, like sometimes you'll get people who are like high on cocaine, okay? I'm going to ask you all a question. So, if I get, so if I get a patient who's high on cocaine and I step into the room and they start yelling at me, they're like, "Who the f are you? Like, what are you doing here? I want to get out of here right away! Like, screw you, screw the establishment, screw all psychiatrists!" What's the right thing for me to do? What should I do? What do y'all think?
So, everyone's saying, "Calm them down, defuse, leave." Incorrect. What you should do is yell back. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but it works magic, okay? So, this is what happens. I start yelling back. I'm like, "Bro, what the hell is wrong with you? I just walked in the door, you don't even know my name, and you're yelling at me. I'm a doctor, I'm here to help you. I'm, I showed up here to try to figure out what I can do for you. I'm not your enemy. Like, I literally walked in the room to try to figure out why the hell you're here, whether you need to be here, and I'm the guy who you're supposed to talk to so you can get the hell out of here. Why are you yelling at me?"
And then what happens? So, then I match his emotional level and then I reduce mine. And then I take a step back. And then I apologize to him. And I say to him, "Bro, I'm sorry. Like, I just walked in the door, you yelled at me. Like, it's not fair. Like, I can't imagine what you've been through. Seems like you don't want to be here. Seems like maybe you don't need to be here. And I'm coming in, you're yelling at me. Honestly, I've been working for 14 hours on this shift. It was unfair for me to yell at you."
And so, the first thing is like, you know, he's escalating. Like, when I'm escalating, and then when I tone down, he's like, "What?" He gets confused. And then like, like he gets down to his level. And then most of the time, what happens is he apologizes too. So, I know it sounds kind of bizarre, but you can even do this like in a video game. So, if someone flames me, sometimes what I'll do is flame them back a little bit, and then I'll apologize. And it completely takes like the air out of them. They're like, "Screw you." And I'm like, "Screw you." Like, they're like, "You fed like, like support's not warding." And I'm like, "Screw you, you fed mid two times." And then I'll say, "I'm sorry, bro. It's like not your fault. I should ward. Like, you know, I'm having a rough day. I've lost two games in a row. My bad." And then it's like, kind of hard. They don't really know what to do. Kind of confuses them when you say it. Never happens in my game. So, I'd encourage you all to try it out.
So, online games are also tough because you're like handicapped in terms of communication because half the time they're not even paying attention to what you're saying. So, I'm not saying it's like 100%. But emotionally mirroring, and like lots, like, you know, Harvard Business Review and places like that will write all these articles about, you know, emotional mirroring and interviews. And like, if someone else crosses their legs, like you should cross cross your legs to someone else. Like, if you're in an interview or you're asking for promotion, and your boss like picks his nose and eats it, like you should pick your nose and eat it too because you're emotional mirroring. I think some of that stuff is like a little bit silly, but it turns out that our brain does have this circuit that like mirrors like what other human beings are are doing. It's also why, like, if you think about it, you know, like if everyone's at the funeral crying, like it's easier for you to cry. Like, you can walk into a room where everyone's laughing, and like, you'll start smiling. You don't even understand why.
Okay, so this is why you should let go of judgment and treat them with respect, right? So, like, understand for a moment that most human beings are like within the bell curve of like normal IQ. People aren't stupid, right? If they believe something, there's a damn good reason they believe it. Now, their reasons may not be factually correct, but inside their mind, there's absolutely a coherent logical structure in their mind. No one thinks, "Oh, I don't want to get vaccinated because I'm not logical and I'm an idiot." No one thinks that, right? Like, everyone thinks they're smart, everyone thinks they're logical, and in their mind, there is a logical system. So, approach the conversation free of judgment and respecting the other person from the get-go. Understand that this human being is, chances are, is like basically just as smart as I am, and they have come to this conclusion, and they hold this conclusion very, very strongly. So, I need to understand like how they got to this conclusion.
Okay, so the next thing is, so as you talk to them, like, don't try to convince them that they're wrong. Try to understand that process of how they got to their conclusion and genuinely try to understand it. And as if they are wrong, like, so with anti-vaxxers, for example, you're gonna sense weaknesses in their argument. And so that's when the debater in you is gonna be like, "Hey, that's dumb! Hey, what about this?" And you're gonna wanna pounce on the weakness of their argument and show them in that moment how they are wrong and you were right. That is a hundred percent a mistake.
So, anytime you see a weakness in their argument, don't attack. Express confusion, okay? So, if something doesn't line up to you, they're the expert and you're the idiot. And express confusion and be like, "Hey, I'm confused for a second. Like, you're saying that science can't be trusted, but generally speaking, like I thought that you're taking, you know, like medications and stuff, like you're taking your asthma medication. Can you help me understand like why you trust asthma medication but you don't trust the like the COVID information? I'm a little bit confused about that."
And so, they may say, "Oh, well, like, people have been taking asthma medication for years," or like, "My doctor actually recommended this to me, and I trust my doctor, and my doctor knows me really well." And so, like, no, they they won't get pissed as long as you genuinely ask and assume that they're correct, right? So, you you just like, when when you notice some problem, don't attack. Because our, the reason they get defensive and they get pissed is because we attack. We say, "Hey, it's dumb for you to think that way. Don't you see this contradiction?" It's not a contradiction, it's just something, it's a gap in your understanding. So, ask them to educate you about the gap in your understanding. "Hey, I don't understand that because on the one hand, I know you take asthma medication. On the other hand, you don't trust this. So, like, help me understand why one of these is trustworthy and the other one isn't." It's not, "Haha, you should trust it. You see, you're trusting it over here and not trusting it over there. Haha, gotcha." Don't do that. Be like, genuinely, like, this could be a reason. Some people may take asthma medication but won't take clozapine. That has nothing to do with a general distrust of science. It's because there could be all kinds of reasons, right? It's like, one causes me to gain 100 pounds and drool, and the other one, you know, helps me breathe easier. That's why I take one and not the other. So, don't point out that contradiction as an attack, which is what most people do. That comes from the debating mentality, which is used to convince a third party, not the person you're debating.
So, once you've understood them, kind of repeat back their argument and say, "Okay, here, I understand. So, like, I understand that like, you know, the mRNA technology is new and you don't really trust it because we don't have any long-term data on how it works, which is like true, right? We don't really have long-term life. You're willing to take some vaccines because, like, the polio vaccine, for example, people have been given for 50 years." And so, you understand it. Say, "Oh, it makes a lot of sense to me."
Then ask them for permission to share your point of view, okay? So, you can say, like, "Is it okay if I share with you like why I decided to get a vaccine and how I'm looking at it?" And then address in when you share their point of view, what you kind of want to do is like address some points of their their perspective which you kind of disagree with, but do so in kind of a non-judgmental way. And you can say, like, "You know, on the one hand, I totally get that like, you know, this vaccine is a new technology and may cause some problems and we don't really know. At the same time, like, I think that based on the science that I've looked at, like it seems like, you know, that the side effects of the vaccine are quite small." And concede their points wherever you can, but still like hold your own, right? So, you can say that, you know, "I understand why you're saying A, B, and C, but like, based on the way that I'm looking at it, I think of D, E, and F."
You're not trying to convince them, you're just asking them if they're willing to try to understand your point of view. And here's where the emotional mirroring comes in, because if you've made a concerted effort to understand their point of view and treat them with respect, it'll be like magic. They will do the same for you. And you'll walk away from that conversation with them thinking you are like reasonable for your beliefs. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm not saying it's like 100%, you get a die-hard anti-vaxxer, like you have to do some work to get there. But generally speaking, like, if you treat their views with respect, they will treat your views with respect. And then you get to a very special place where you can treat each other with respect and still disagree.
And then ask for their opinion about what you believe. And you can say, "What do you think about what I believe? Like, by all means, like, help me understand. Do you think what I believe is like fair to believe? Do you think it's idiotic? Like, what do you think about what I believe?" So, let them be the final judge. And once they sort of make that final judgment, this is the kind of tricky thing is then in the last step, especially for like anti-vaxxers, that's where I would say like, "You lay your boundary." Now that we both understand like both sides of the equation, and you understand their point of view, they understand your point of view, that's where you can say, "I'm going to lay the boundary."
You can say, "I understand where you're coming from based on the data I've seen that, you know, people who are vaccinated, like, more people with vaccinated are getting sick, like 96% of people hospitalized in the ICU are unvaccinated. And that also, vaccines don't offer complete protection, which is exactly what you said. So, I completely agree with that, which is precisely why I don't want anyone in my house that hasn't been vaccinated. Because even though we've been vaccinated, the protection isn't complete. And so, I totally understand and respect where you're coming from. Like, it makes sense to me. I'm so happy you explained it. I still won't have you over because, you know, I, I personally, here's my point of view, which I'm grateful that you've understood. Then you can lay your boundary with them."
And then it's kind of bizarre, but like, if you, as you have these conversations like over and over again with anti-vaxxers, it oftentimes takes time. Like, you can't do it all in one one session. Um, but with people like, you know, convincing people to do things, like it can sometimes take time. But that's kind of how you do it, right? Even when we're talking about like alcohol addiction, they'll say, "Yeah, like drinking isn't a problem." Or like, "Smoking pot, like smoking pot isn't a problem." This is the problem. "Oh, help me understand why I like smoking a pot isn't a problem." And then you kind of listen to, "Oh, I see what you're saying. Like, that makes sense. Here's what my experience is as a psychiatrist. Can I share that with you?" Then you kind of share your point of view. You kind of ask them, "Does that make sense? Like, what do you think about that? Is like, is it incorrect in some ways? Am I logically incorrect? Like, by all means, let me know." "Oh, I see what you're saying. That makes sense." Um, and then sort of like ask that. And then just sort of like leave it up to them. Let them be the final judge. And you will be amazed at like how not trying to convince someone is actually the best way of convincing people.
So, just to kind of summarize, you know, if you want to convince someone of something, the first thing you've got to do is like, forget about debating them because convincing them them that they're wrong is the worst way to showing them that they're wrong is the worst way to convince them that you're right. It's just not a good effective method. Let go of your judgment and treat them with respect. And like, the cool thing is, because of emotional mirroring, like if you respect their views, they will respect your views. Then understand their viewpoint. And if there's something that's logically inconsistent, don't attack. Try to actually get them to understand. And the cool thing is, if their view really isn't logical, and you ask for explanations in an open-minded way, they'll begin to see their own pro their own problems in in their arguments, like because they can't explain it, right? So, but you don't want to attack because if you say, "Haha, then they'll get defensive and they'll push you away."
Then what you can do is ask for permission to share your your point of view. Ask them for feedback about your point of view. And then sort of like lay out your kind of final boundary. "Hey, here's what I think. I understand why you think what you think. Here's why I think what I think. I think your view sort of makes sense. Um, I can see how you've come to believe that. At the same time, like, I think that there's a lot of things that I have influenced my point of view that you seem to be discounting. So, I understand why we disagree because I trust the CDC and the FDA and, you know, it seems like you've read a lot of stuff on Facebook that says that they're not to be trusted. So, I can understand how we're coming to different conclusions. At the end of the day, what we're going to be doing in this household, or in my household, is to follow like CDC and FDA guidelines. And I could, I understand that you're, you don't have to believe them, but we're going to choose to. And so, I'm sorry, but you're not going to be able to come over. And if you feel persecuted, I, I can understand why you feel that way, but I genuinely don't think it's something personal. It's just what we're doing, what we consider to be safe. You're doing what you consider to be safe, and those two things just don't line up in this situation. So, it's like nothing personal. You can do whatever you want to. It's just we're not going to hang out with unvaccinated people."
And then you'll be surprised, right? What works? Does that help? Do people get that? So, don't attack them because they ain't stupid. Like, the first thing, like, you gotta let go of the idea that other people are stupid.