Transcription
Foreign, let's go to David in Clearfield, Utah. What's up, brother?
D: Hey John, you can hear me okay?
John: Yeah, absolutely. What's up, man?
D: Um, so I got into, I guess, a texting argument with, um, one of my wife's family members, um, who I'm fairly close with. Um, basically, I was trying to figure out what was going on, and he told me in a nutshell that I'm super argumentative, I turn everything into a competition, and even went as far as to say, it's like I'm emotionally abusive towards my wife. And so, I kind of sat down and had a conversation with my wife about it. And she, I basically asked, I said, you know, is that true? Am I like that? And she said, not all the time, but yeah. And, um, she said that she doesn't feel like I'm emotionally abusive because she's been in those relationships before, um, but she does, she did say that like I do things that are hurtful and, and I raise my voice a lot and stuff like that. Um, I've had, I've been told this before by other people in my past. I know it's true, but I'm not sure how I can be, I guess, more self-aware, self-aware of how I'm talking and how I'm behaving.
John: Man, that's hard to hear.
D: Yeah. Um, first, first I was, man, recommend strongly never, ever, ever get into text fights with anybody. Nothing, no one ever wins there because you miss so much of the, um, body language and body posture, and people say they lob grenades via text if they wouldn't in person. So, um, but anyway, we're here now. Um, what led to the fight?
D: Um, I just had, I felt like things were getting really tense between us and I wasn't sure why. And so I just kind of, I had texted him because we've been texting and I just basically said, hey, you know, I don't know what's been going on lately. You seem like you've been more upset with me lately, you know, if I've done something, you know, just tell me, I'll, I'll try to make it right and stuff. But this didn't come out of the blue. Something happened.
John: What happened?
D: Um, just, I guess, just [Music] we kind of banter back and forth, we'll joke with each other, but lately it's been like really hurtful and like really mean things.
John: That you're saying to him or he's saying to you?
D: Yeah, he's been saying to me. And I, I thought maybe I was making it up a little bit, but then my wife started to notice it too and she brought it up.
John: Yeah. And so I was like, okay, maybe I should try to air out the laundry here a little bit and figure out what's going on.
John: Okay. Um, so a couple things here. One is, it feels like your wife, well, number one, good for your brother-in-law because he doesn't like the way some guy is treating his sister, right? So I'm glad he said. I wish he'd come up and directly said something to you instead of being passive aggressive and throwing little cheap jabs here and there. Oh, she'd come up and had a direct confrontation with you, not in a fist fight kind of way, but in a, "Hey, don't talk to my sister like this," or "Why are you?" I'm struggling. You said you were really close to him, and so you, you deserve that conversation that he didn't have. But it's out there now. It also sounds like your sister has not felt safe talking to you about stuff, but has circled around and gone and talked to her brother about you.
John: Um, how did that conversation go with your wife? Like, she confirmed some of the stuff he said and she tried to soften it a little bit because she's got to live with you, he doesn't. Um, what was the nature of that conversation? Did she feel, was there a relief that she's finally get to say this stuff out loud? Was there a sense of trepidation? She was nervous to tell you stuff?
D: I don't, I don't know if she was nervous. Um, we had had kind of this conversation before earlier in a relationship and I, I thought that I had been doing better because it hadn't come up in a long time. But then it obviously, it reared its ugly head again. Okay. Um, but I felt like the conversation actually went really well. It really started a healthy conversation and so I've been trying to do things to work on, you know, myself. But, okay, I felt like the nature of the conversation was actually really good.
John: Okay. So whenever we say things like overbearing or emotionally abusive or too competitive, um, those, those are grenade words, not helpful to me. Be specific. You said, you know, what your brother-in-law said is true and what your wife said is true. So give me some examples. Where are you competitive to the point that, you know, you're crossing a line?
D: Well, that's kind of my issue is I don't know. And I asked my wife, I asked her, I said, you know, can you give me a specific example of the time I've been too competitive? And I haven't really been able to get a clear answer on that.
John: All right. So let's dig in. When somebody's got a like a story or a one-time I did this, are you a guy that goes, "Oh yeah, well, one time I did this"? Or is that you? Um, are you a one-upper?
D: I, I don't know. Yes. I mean, you know, like, can somebody tell a story about the scariest time they almost got in a car wreck and you just sit there in silence? Or do you have to say, "Oh yeah, one time I got in a car wreck"?
John: Yes or no?
D: Yes.
John: Okay. Do you, do you talk about money? Who's making what at family events?
D: Your brother, how much he's making? I, I, no, I try not to talk money. I don't quite those conversations.
John: Well, where else would you, somebody else might consider you competitive? Are you like, uh, Meet the Fockers, or do you like get crazy at, uh, at volleyball games? You know what I mean? Family volleyball games or whatever, like where's this competitive thing coming up with sports?
D: I think I'm fairly competitive. Okay. I'm like, like we went bowling together and I was having a good game, I was getting really excited and I wasn't trying to be mean about it, you know, and I was trying to like cheer everybody else on too. But I, I could see where like in that situation, I probably was pretty overbearing.
John: Okay. So be specific. What is, you know, "kind of pretty overbearing"? What, like, be specific. Were you yelling at people? Or you like, "Suck it"? Were you like in people's faces, pouring beer on them? Like, what were you doing?
D: Just, just being loud and kind of rambunctious. Um, clearly, and nobody else was. Um, yeah, I think that's fair.
John: Okay. All right. Um, what about emotionally abusive? Your wife confirmed that she said, "I wouldn't call you abusive, but yeah, you go too far." And you said you raise your voice. Are you someone who yells a lot?
D: Um, yeah, I have kind of a loud personality. Okay. And that's the thing that kind of worries me the most, I think, is because like I'm not, I'm not being mean, I guess, when I raise my voice, but it comes across mean. Okay. Um, I'm easily excited. So any, regardless of the mood or anything, I'll raise my voice. It's something I've always done, I guess.
John: So hear me say that yelling at somebody in anger's abuse. So if you get mad, if you get angry, you get frustrated, and you start yelling, yell at your wife, yell at your house, yell at your brother-in-law, you yell in the house at somebody, and your wife's sitting there, if you've got little kids in the house and you're yelling, that's trauma. That hurts people. If you're just a loud guy, and this is the pot talking to the kettle here, I'm a loud guy too. Here's what was an important, um, shape-shifting moment for me. That my intention often doesn't matter. That if I want to really love people, especially my wife, but if I want to love my friends, if I want to love my community, if I want to love Ben and Kelly and and everybody in the in the booth, then I'm responsible for making sure I can be heard and making sure I'm a safe place to be around. And most of that goes very counter-cultural to talk like that because the culture says, "You just be you, bro, and everybody can adjust." That's stupid. If I, if I am too much, then the world will respond by leaving me completely alone. And so I value relationships and other people's feeling safe around me. And so I work hard to bring it down a notch. And bring it down a notch for me is bringing it down many notches for most people because I'm a lot, right?
John: There's something here. If I can be honest with you, I don't like how you're being kind of aloof and like, "Look, I don't know, man." I guess it's just, maybe like you've got two people who love you and that you love in your life telling you that you hurt them. And you say, "Yeah, I believe them, but I don't, I just don't know, man." I'm not buying it. I don't know if it's a protective thing you've set up or just kind of a way you get through life. Be honest with me, man.
D: I, I'm just not very self-aware, I guess. I, I, I don't know. I know you don't want me to be aloof, and I'm not trying to be. I just, I don't know what the actual issue is and why I tend to, I guess, get loud in certain situations or to get competitive or argumentative. I don't know.
John: Okay. So one of the greatest gifts a person in your situation can have, and I've been there too, most people have, where they're being a certain way, they're acting a certain way, and they they don't have a full grasp on it. One of the greatest gifts you can have is people that you trust in your life to be honest with you. And so here's your homework assignment. You ready? It is to number one, create a written dialogue with your wife. Either she's not able to come up with with answers really fast, and she wants to be more thoughtful in her answers, or she just comes to answers a little bit more organically, a little more slowly, her answers are more thought through, or she doesn't feel safe speaking them out loud. Often in that situation, people will write them down or offer to say, "Hey, I'd love to go to a marriage counselor. I want to be better at this, and I'm, I'm, I've created a world where you don't feel safe, and it makes me sick to my stomach that I'm doing that to the one person who I love more than anybody else. Would you go talk to somebody with me?" Um, and let a therapist's job is to create a safe environment for people to have hard conversations. And so hopefully, so a neutral third party would be able to create that environment where she could then speak.
John: Um, have you ever been aggressive with her? Um, as far as physically or just verbally?
D: Both. Um, I've never laid a hand on her, like, ever. Okay. Um, um, I've never, I've never cussed at her. I've never, we've never gotten into like a screaming match. Like we've had arguments, but we've never like screamed at each other or anything like that.
John: All right. Um, so the next thing you do is I want you to have a conversation with your brother-in-law in person. Tell him, "Hey, I want to go out for drinks. Wanna go for coffee, whatever. I'm buying. Um, I need some help." Start that way. "I need some help." And I would tell him, "Hey, number one, sorry for doing this over text. I should never have texted you this stuff in the first place. I should have just met with you in person. I'm sorry. Number two, your sister means the absolute world to me. I love her more than anything else. And it hurts to find out from somebody I respect and I love too, that you feel like I'm abusive, that I'm too competitive, I'm hard to be around. Will you help me? Because I don't see it and I really need some clarity in my life." Um, that sort of humility is going to open you up. And I want you to take a pen and something to write on when he's talking and write that stuff down. And like you did with your wife, I said, "Can you give me this example, man?" And if he's right, or let me put it this way, this isn't the conversation to go, "Yeah, but." This is a conversation for you just to listen. And maybe you tell him that, "I'm not going to refute anything you say today. I just want to listen. I'm about healing this, and I clearly have some work I need to do on me, and I need somebody that I trust to help me be reflective because I'm missing it." And hopefully he's the person of integrity and he'll have that conversation.
John: Do you think you will?
D: Yeah, I definitely think.
John: Okay. And then the third one. So you got your wife, you've got your brother-in-law. Those are the two who've been involved here. Do you have a mentor, a boss that you trust, or a team leader at your office that you trust, or a couple of friends that you've known for a long time that you trust?
D: I do have a friend that I could reach out to.
John: I would love for you to reach out and say, "Hey, all right, here's hard conversation. I've gotten some feedback from some folks in my life that I love, my wife, and that I'm too much, that I'm overbearing, I'm overly competitive. I'm even like, one of them called me emotionally abusive. Like, I need you to be honest with me." And I've had this conversation with friends of mine in the past. Trevor, Craig, Todd, Kevin, Michael, I can name them in in my life who I've gone to Jean Doyle, I've talked to folks and, um, have asked for some direct feedback. And, um, it was really hard to hear in certain seasons of my life, and it was a great, great gift. Um, your friends might lie to you and be like, "Nah, bro, no, no, no. It's all good. Forget them. Screw that guy." Hopefully, they'll be honest. Like, "Yeah, dude, you know." And here's the thing, my buddies, when I've asked for feedback or, "Hey, I'm struggling with this. Am I not seeing this right?" Um, dude, they're like, "Are you serious? How do you not know that every time we play a game, everybody gets out of the way because you're..." You know what I mean? Or whatever the thing would be with you. But they're real direct with me, real direct, and it's changed my life. And so at this point, if you can honestly look in the mirror and say, "I believe they're telling the truth, but I don't see it," then your job is to go with people who will be reflective with you and will tell you the truth. And your job isn't to fight it or refute it, it's to lean into it.
John: And then here's what we're gonna do. You're gonna have a pile of information when you get done. All right, David, you're gonna have a bunch of stuff here like this, and then that, and then that, then you're gonna be about working on it. So I'm gonna do you a favor. I'm gonna give you a copy of "Own Your Past, Change Your Future." It's my new book coming out. I'm gonna give you a copy of it because it's gonna walk you through what you do next. One of the cornerstones of that book is you have to own reality. I didn't want this, but here's what I, where I am. Either what I'm doing, what's been done to me, here's where I am. And then what the heck do I do now? And so it'll walk you out. So hang on the line, I'll send you a copy of it. Um, and then you might need to call somebody. You might need to call somebody, whether reach out to BetterHelp and they pump it into your house for therapy, or you reach out to a local therapist in your community. You may need to sit down and say, "I've got a long history of this behavior." My guess is, um, you getting loud is a way to keep people off of you. It's a distance, it's a protective measure. Your overly competitiveness is because somebody told you somewhere that you don't have a lot of value unless you're in first place. And you have created value for yourself by being loud, by being the guy, and all the stuff and I win on your face. And your way you protect yourself ends up, let me say, like the way you have developed coping mechanisms, mechanisms to take care of yourself, you end up forcing people away from you, which just reinforces your coping mechanism. So you get louder and louder and louder, and then people get further and further away from you until one or two of them finally snaps, like your brother-in-law did. So what you're gonna have to do is learn new coping mechanisms. And usually coping mechanisms start with you looking in the mirror and saying, "I'm worth something better than this. I'm worth something more than this because I'm tired of being loud. I'm tired of being the guy's got to be, oh, I'm tired to be that guy. I want to be able to just sit and hold my wife's hand. I want to be quiet. I want to be loved. I still like laughing. I still like being silly. I still like being, you know, the bell of the ball. But oh, I'm worth more than this." So give it a shot, brother. Give it a shot. We'll be in your corner, right? I want you to reach back out to us. Let me know how that call went with your brother-in-law, with that conversation you're going to have, that in-person. Let me know how that goes and we'll feature you back on the show because people are going to be wondering what that conversation is like and what the follow-up is. And I'll keep walking alongside you. That's my commitment.