Transcription
People who've grown up in Catholicism, I'm not unique in this, but we grow up in Catholicism. We saw Bible Christians doing Bible studies. We always thought they were weird. We always thought that was strange. Like, why would you read the Bible?
Patrick from the Bible in Context. Welcome, man.
>> Hey, thanks for having me on, Ryan.
>> Good to have you here. So, maybe many in the chat have may have seen your shorts uh come up on their social media and so yeah, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
>> Absolutely. So, my name is Patrick O'Brien and I'm the founder of Philippians 1:9 Ministries and also the popular face you see over on the Bible and context ministry page on Instagram, Facebook, Tik Tok and X as well. And over there we do a lot of apologetics with a huge emphasis on apologetics towards Roman Catholicism. I myself am a former Catholic and am a Bible teacher and so I do a lot of the contrasting between what Roman Catholics actually teach and what the Bible actually teaches.
That's interesting. So ex Roman Catholic. So when did you finally leave the Roman Catholic Church and and get saved?
>> So it's been well over a decade now. It was back when I was in college. Going to college, I you know, you experienced a lot of different things and a lot of different ideologies, worldviews, but by the grace of God, there was a man of God who challenged my belief. He saw that I was going through some hard things. You know, early 19year-old, 20-year-old, and he challenged those things with the Bible. and being a zealous uh type Catholic and wanting to prove him wrong at that early age, I went to the Catholic teaching and the apologetics booklets. And so we did a lot of back and forth for for many months, but eventually by the power of God's gospel, I was saved and born again and began to start seeing the scripture through the eyes and lens of the Holy Spirit and then being able to then look at what Catholic teaching taught towards the Bible. And and the interesting thing is it wasn't like I was just saved and then saw the Catholic Church as immediately false. It took time for the Holy Spirit to reveal these things to me and to learn exactly what the Catholic Church taught on these different things and why that was contrast to the Bible and why that was so problematic to leave.
>> That's that's really interesting. So what was the first thing you realized was wrong in Roman Catholicism?
>> You know, I think one of the first things that really stuck out to me was the doctrine of purgatory. And that was I was reading it. In fact, I had a lot of these different apologetics booklets that you can get on. You can get them anywhere, but these are the type of booklets I was studying for Catholic apologetics. And they had a section in there on purgatory. And it was about how it was a perfectly harmless doctrine. And it was a gift of God that you know you're not to you're not going to be dead and perfectly cleansed that you can still cleanse yourself in purgatory and other people can do prayers and offer masses to cleanse you in purgatory and that didn't sit well. So then by studying the Bible and seeing that the Bible only spoke of two locations either hell or heaven that was kind of kind of the beginning and then they started to appeal to other philosophers and other uh you know theologians to kind of say well we can make it work. this pope said it could work. Instead of going to the Bible and making it explicitly clear, they started to teach outside sources. And so then from there it spiralled into the topic of the Eucharist and then all the Marian type doctrines and then of course the fundamental of the gospel and that's pretty much how it snowballed.
>> Yeah, that's a really interesting thing. So you're reading scripture seeing this heaven and hell talked about if purgatory was something that we should believe. You were thinking, I would expect God to write about that in his word, but he doesn't seem to talk about that.
>> No.
>> Yeah. And if you were to in like just a very quick nutshell say to someone, this is why purgatory is not true, what would you say?
>> Well, I think the the ultimate thing, the problem purgatory is the gospel needs to be understood. That the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is sufficient to pay the penalty for our sin. And it was Jesus who gets us into heaven, not anything we can do in purgatory or here on this earth to cleanse ourselves from sin. And so purgatory comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospel is and how we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone.
>> Yeah. Cuz if Jesus took 100% of our punishment, why would we need to get temporal punishment in the afterlife?
>> Right. Right. And even even scarier than that is they teach that in purgatory you can't even pray for yourself. So, at what point in time did I stop having a relationship with God now that I'm in purgatory and I can't have a prayer life to God? That sounds like hell to me. But, wow, that's interesting. And then you get people on earth who can then do good deeds for you,
>> right,
>> to try and get your time off in purgatory. And that's why the classic thing that happened in the Reformation, a coin and the coffer rings are sold from purgatory springs.
>> And Catholics will look at that saying, "Oh, look, okay, that's that's not really right." But in essence, they still do it today. What did the year of Jubilee 2025 was the year where if you went to this location, that location in the world in which are Catholic locations, you would get time off in purgatory if you did that. Is that correct?
[clears throat]
>> Yeah. Doing different penants. And a lot of people don't realize that penance is actually still the word found in the Dewey Rees translation of the Bible for Roman Catholics. And it's largely translated from the Latin Vulgate or the different Latin translations. And penance is still there in place of repentance. So the actual translation from the Greek is meta repent, but they still have penance in there. And then they still have many doctrines and teachings about doing penance as well.
>> And so then for a Roman Catholic, can they be really 100% sure that they're going to heaven?
>> No, they can't be. They can only be 100% sure that salvation comes through the church and that by staying with the church, then that's where they believe they can be saved. And so salvation is not in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Salvation is trusting in the church to to save them. And Ryan, they actually teach this in the catechism paragraph 181 where it says believing is an ecclesial act. It's an act of the church. It says the church's faith precedes and engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith. So the church is the mother of all believers and no one can have God as father who does not have the church as mother. So if you don't have God as your father, you're not saved. And so they're teaching here unless the church is your mother that precedes you in faith, then you are not saved. So salvation comes through the church through the sacraments of the church. And so this is why they can't believe they're saved outside of the church. I spoke to a Roman Catholic yesterday who said, "I'm not 100% sure I'm going to heaven, but I have moral certitude." Have you heard of that before?
>> I' I've heard of people talking about it in such a way where they're they're meriting their salvation or they're meriting their uh their eternal security or their uh eternal life. In fact, it's it's actually here in the catechism paragraph 2010 where he says that moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. And then in 2027, it talks about how we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life. That sounds like a contradiction, doesn't it? Because grace means unmmerited favor and they're saying that you merit for yourselves all the graces needed to attain eternal life. That's a contradiction.
It is and and there's so many contradictions within the code of canon law within the catechism in and of themselves as compared to the scripture as well. And I think a lot of Catholics just don't understand what Catholic theology officially teaches. And so this is where they get confused. And so when we say that the Catholic Church believes this that the sacraments are absolutely necessary for salvation, they'll say, "Yeah, but God is not bound by his sacraments." And when when they teach baptism is required for salvation, they'll say, "Yeah, but you could have baptism by desire." So they speak out of both sides of their mouth and they have loopholes, which is common language that you would see in any Christian named cult to cover all the bases to create an ecumenical type of uh attraction to people to assimilate into the culture and to the religions of that time. Roman Catholicism is famous for doing that. They assimilated into all the different pagan religions and they're assimilating themselves here, especially in the western culture.
>> Even Vatican 2 saying that, you know, Muslims worship the same God, they respect Muslims for that. And as long as you just are, if you haven't had contact with the Catholic Church, if you're just a good person from a good heart, then you can also attain salvation through that means. That's precisely salvation by works.
>> Exactly. Yes. If you could. You could still by following your conscience. I think it's 8:46 8:47 in the catechism. By following your own conscience and following the law as as you believe is God's will, you can still be saved. They can still be saved according to them. But if we if we knowingly leave or refuse to enter in the Roman Catholic Church like paragraph 846 teaches, then we can't be saved. So, it's very disingenuous that a a Muslim who faithfully practices Islam can still be saved, but we who leave the Catholic Church knowing what it teaches can't be saved even though we're trusting in Jesus.
[laughter]
>> Yeah, it's interesting because following that, that means Catholics could say that Buddha may be in heaven because Buddha didn't come in contact with the Catholic Church. And even though he founded Buddhism, he was trying to be a good person, maybe from a good heart. And so under Catholic theology, Buddha might have gone to heaven. Which is why then I sometimes ask Catholics, is it okay to pray to Buddha? Because they think you can pray to anyone who's in heaven, the angels, the people up there. Well, then if Buddha's potentially up in heaven, then there'll be no issue with that. So when you tell your Buddhist friend, don't pray to Buddha, you should keep saying, "Oh, keep on doing it because he might be in heaven."
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> That's something interesting I often to say to them.
>> It is. It's a problem. I want to ask you uh okay, what is your strategy to when you're chatting to a Roman Catholic to maybe put some seeds of doubt in regards to their institution or how would you share the message of the gospel with them?
>> So, I think it's it's multiffold. First, I think the most important thing is to rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit when we're evangelizing and sharing the truth with anybody. And and we have to understand kind of where they're coming from. If there's somebody who is a a long practicing Roman Catholic who's been in it for a long time, maybe somebody who knows the Catholic theology versus the scripture, you might go at it more of a head-to-head from an apologetics point, looking at the Bible, going to the verses and checking it. But if it's somebody who's new to the Catholic Church that maybe they're just now joining it, you're going to want to show them what the Catholic Church actually teaches and that this is their own writing and then show them to the scripture and say, "Okay, this is not exactly what they teach." So the approach I guess you have to kind of weigh to the person you're talking to. But I think the most important thing talking to a Catholic is to point out of course the gospel and show them where Roman Catholics get the gospel wrong. That they believe that we can somehow participate in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. That we can participate with him there for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world. And somehow we could participate in God's redemptive plan on the cross for the whole world. you know, and show them how these things when you take them to their logical conclusion, they make absolutely no sense. How God can be confined and contained into a wafer or following their logic into a crumb and then, you know, start pointing these things out to them to help helpfully have them see that the same talking points that are commonly used and essentially beat them at their game. We already know like for example, Ryan, if they bring up the Eucharist, because this is one of their leading evangel evangelistic tools is the Eucharist. When they bring up the Eucharist, say, "Yeah, when when I talk about the Eucharist, you're going to say John 6, 1 Corinthians 10, 1 Corinthians 11, and then of course the Lord's supple parables and the synoptics." And then and then when we show you from the scripture that Jesus said, "Take and eat, not offer a sacrifice for me over and over again as a perpetuary sacrifice." He said, "Take and eat. Do this, the Lord's supper, the Passover meal in remembrance of him." Right? when you start to to tear them down, then you know they're going to move to the church fathers and they're going to say, "Well, yeah, but Ignatius of Antioch said this and then this church leader said this." And so, I think the important thing is to show them how at the at the end of the day, the scripture does not teach in a sacrificial mass being offered. It's not anywhere in the New Testament. So, you could use examples like that to take them to the scripture and help them see that.
>> That's helpful. I found that even with a chat I had with a Catholic YouTuber yesterday. He said as soon as I was pressing him on the Bible, he's like he got to the point he's like, "Well, we don't even hold the Bible as our supreme authority. We hold to tradition." Like that's revealing. You have to go there because you realize your doctrines cannot be supported just simply from scripture.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that hopefully that gives them pause
>> like, "Yeah, I can't defend this from the Bible." And so their trust is very much in their institution. And you can put them on the back foot as well by saying, "Is there any reason is anything from God that tells me that I have to listen to this institution with its headquarters in the Vatican today?" Now, they'll say, "Oh, Peter, Peter, hold. Peter doesn't link up with this man that's sitting in the Vatican right now." Right? And so, put them on the back foot and they're having to do massive stretches to justify what I would suspect is a blind faith in the institution. And some of them even say if Catholicism is is false, if the Catholic Church is false, then there's no point being a Christian. You may as well be an atheist.
>> Which shows they would be happy to give up faith in Christ if they can't have faith in their church.
>> Mhm.
>> That's terrible to me. I think if you figure out your church is teaching false things, you just say, "I'm not going to believe my church. I'm just going to believe Christ cuz he's who my savior is." You know, he is the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the father but through him. Scripture never says you don't go to the father through a church.
>> Right. Right. And that's the that's why they put the saving office as the church like you said with the infallibility of the pope and believing that a church entity can be infallible which really they mean the the bishops along with the pope. And in fact you know most cults don't really come out and tell you to to check your mind at the door when you come in. But Roman Catholic actually does. In the code of canon law in canon 752 it says this. Although not an ascent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the supreme pontiff or the college of bishop declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim it by a definitive act. Therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it. So you have to submit your intellect and your will to the doctrine of the papal infallibility. So whatever they decree, you have to submit it. So even if you don't understand it, you have to believe it anyway. So that that's the type of logic. And and when you're dealing with a Roman Catholic, just like with any other call, you have to understand that they use the same words we do, but they don't mean the same things. Catholic will say we're saved by grace, but a Catholic has to cooperate with that grace. A Catholic has to earn different graces and that graces come through things called sacraments to the believer and so they have to continually do these things which is which is odd because even in that baptism is supposed to be the thing that saves them and removes original sin but it's not enough to save them because they also still have to eat and drink the body and blood of Christ. But even if you took John 6 literally where he said you have to eat and drink then how many times he doesn't say how many times. How many times do you have to get eternal life and life eternal once you get it? And so, you know, this is the concept where they don't take it to its logical conclusion because again, they have to check their mind at the door and their will and just trust the church blindly.
>> Yeah. That's similar to JWS. They say trust the Watchtower and if you disagree with the Watchtower, you might get shunned and excluded and things like that. And so then you're not allowed to disagree with the Catholic Church and say that they're wrong. Um, that would be even considering like a mortal sin under under their theology, right? to say the Catholic Church is wrong on on some point of dogma.
>> Yeah. And so I would say that when I've had chats with Roman Catholics, the ones that are very much ingrained, as you mentioned, they will push back with, oh, church father this, church father that. Um, but I find the average Roman Catholic doesn't really even know fully what their church teaches. Like I just go back from the Philippines and that's predominantly Catholic country there. Almost every single person we just we encountered, they go to mass every week, but you ask them how to get to heaven, they just say be a good person. Just be a good person. Now to Roman Catholics, what do they think about that answer that the all these people, vast majority of Roman Catholics think the way to heaven is by being a good person. What do those educated Catholics and maybe those higher up, what do you think they think about that answer? Are they happy with that or not happy with that?
Well, I think again that they believe that because the Catholic because they're baptized and they're part of the Catholic Church, which is their salvation, that they do good things and that will eventually get them to heaven. It might it won't get them out of purgatory if they really understand purgatory, but they believe that their ultimate location is going to be heaven because the church saved them because their salvation comes from the church because the the sacraments of the church are what keep them and make them saved. So, that's that's kind of the the language there. people who've grown up in Catholicism, when you like for for me, and I'm not unique in this, but we grow up in Catholicism. We saw Bible Christians doing Bible studies. We always thought they were weird. We always thought that was strange. Why would you read the Bible? You know, like that's the language that you have as a Catholic growing up. Like in high school, they used to be, you know, Christians doing down the hallway. They would be studying their Bible, Bible study groups. And as a Catholic, we would like we don't need that. So there's an element of spiritual pride that's ingrained into you because I mean you're eating the body and blood of Jesus. You're saved. You've been baptized as the one true church. You know, you're you're saved. What do you need anything else for? And so that's kind of that that spiritual pride, but it gets dangerous because you begin to trust in that. And so like the the teaching of the Eucharist that it actually removes venial sins that it can actually preserve you from making more sins, especially mortal sins. So there's there's there's effect salvific effect in eating this wafer so it can preserve me from sin. That's not that's I mean that's just blasphemy.
>> Yeah. I the chat I had yesterday with a Catholic YouTuber. He said when cuz I was talking about the Bible all the time and he's like do you worship the Bible or something? You know he had to say that because he's like why are you talking about the Bible all the time? And I've spoken to other Roman Catholics who say, um, look, at our church, they don't do Bible studies. There's no such thing as like a a home group or small group where we just like study the Bible together. Even at the Catholic mass,
>> Pope Francis said, "You can only do maximum of eight minute sermons." Eight minutes
>> because otherwise people are going to fall asleep.
>> Really, eight minutes? Come on. And because they think it's not about hearing from God and his word,
>> as he's mentioned, it's about having God in my mouth and eating him.
>> And people like the feelings. I was speaking to an educated Catholic in the Philippines, and he's like,
>> "Look, what you said makes perfect sense. It's what the Bible teaches, but I'm not going to leave the Catholic Church because of of the Eucharist.
>> I love the feeling of the fact I know that God is in in my mouth when I'm eating him." And as a result of that, he's like, I'm just going to stay a Roman Catholic. And so to me, it sounds like it's very much these this feeling based religion. It's
>> um I don't want to, you know, I want to go to Eucharistic adoration, which is where they go and worship the bread that's there.
>> And they're just like, I'm in God's presence. Little do they know that we're actually always in God's presence because the Holy Spirit dwells within us. We never leave God's presence.
>> Right.
>> Right. have. Now, do you know how long if they think they're eating God through the eating the bread, how long does God stay in their body before it's no longer God inside them?
>> Yeah. So, as a Catholic, we were taught it was about 15 minutes or 15 minutes or so. I mean, that's what I remember being taught is you eat him. So, somehow Yeah. So, somehow he's he's incarnated into a wafer and then deincarnated in your body.
>> And and this is the Lord of glory. This is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, who's sitting at the right hand of the majesty on high. We're saying that now he becomes a wafer, something that could be contained, something even lower than the animals, the animal kingdom, into a wafer that's contained into a man's hand and that you can put in your mouth and eat. This is blasphemy. But you're right, Ryan. The the the Eucharist is a compelling emotional pull for people. When I when I talk to people, the number one thing they say is it was the Eucharist. It was the Eucharist that brought me to it. And what people don't understand and and largely because they don't understand their Bible is that these are false signs, wonders, and miracles. This is the power of emotion and spirituality. In fact, this goes all the way back to the first temptation of Adam and Eve in the garden where what or what sat Satan was doing with Eve where he says to where if you know if you eat this this fruit, then you could obtain this knowledge. You can obtain something from God spiritually, something spiritually from doing this physical object. And so Roman Catholics believe the same temptation that by receiving this physical object, physical thing I put in my mouth, I can obtain certain grace, certain knowledge, and certain spiritual power from God. And so that's what they believe. The same temptation that was in the garden is the same temptation Satan is using today. That there's physical things you can do to gain spiritual power. Wow. That that's a really good connection. I appreciate you sharing that. And in Acts 3:21 speaks about how uh at times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that he may send the Christ appointed for you Jesus whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. And so, as you mentioned, Jesus is at the right hand of the father right now. He's not then that piece of bread,
>> right?
>> And therefore, you wouldn't do it in remembrance of him if it was actually him. If I'm doing something in remembrance of a friend, I'm clearly not with my friend if I'm doing in remembrance of him. And so, the fact that Jesus says, "Do this in remembrance of me shows that it's not Jesus that's the bread, but it points to Christ."
>> Right? And it also makes me think of in Romans 14, Paul says, "Food does not commend us to God. We are no better off if we eat." I think even 1 Corinthians talks about this. We're no better off if we eat or not eat. And so if food doesn't commend us to God, then that would go a lot against the Eucharist because they think this does commend them to God. And it removes venial sins as you mentioned.
>> Yeah. And and when you read John 6, the the topic is not even the Passover meal. The topic is a contrast between the mana that fell for the fathers. They ate and died because they had the physical and then Jesus contrasts that with a spiritual food that that when they consume that spiritual food, they become saved for eternal life. And and the the the interesting thing is is God Jesus uses the metaphor eating and drinking because it's the most personal thing we can do. Nobody can eat for me, nobody can drink for me, nobody can believe on Christ and be saved for me. It's a personal act because salvation is not corporate. Salvation is individual. And so this is that why Jesus is using this strong metaphor for these individuals in part, but it has nothing to do with the Passover meal and the last supper. That's a really good point. I love bringing that up when I'm speaking to Catholics where in John 6 is talking about communion, the last supper or anything. It's not the context. That would be years away, the last supper. And so the disciples hadn't haven't even taken part in communion at that point in time. And yet they've come to believe, Peter says that we've come to believe that you are the Christ, the the son and living God. And so they would already have eternal life. The true disciples would have eternal life even before taking part in the Eucharist. And yet Jesus says, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you." So clearly that cannot be referring to the Eucharist if they already have life in them prior to taking part in the Eucharist.
>> Right. Right. And and they call Jesus in their Catholic theology a victim. They call him a victim. In the in the presum ordinance he's called the divine victim in the sacrifice. And in the catechism they label him as a a victim a couple times as well. And the important distinction here is that Jesus Christ is not a victim. He's a victor on the cross. He came for the cross. He didn't the cross didn't happen to him. He didn't die by habit stance. So by calling him a victim is disintegrating to God. And by nature of this idea because they always get on non-atholic Christians because they think we think they're resacrificing Christ. But the problem is is they're saying that the sacrifice of Calvary and the Mass are one and the same. They're calling it a sacrifice, but they're saying it's one and the same. Only one's bloody and one's unbloody. And then you'll have people like Trent Horn and others will say, "Well, it's a representation of Christ. It's not the he's not being sacrificed again. he's just representing it. Well, if he's being represented, then how do I get to take my sins and and add to that finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross? It's it's a contradiction in terms. If he's being represented, then how is he now a victim? And so, again, Jesus Christ once and for all, right? We see it five times in Hebrews. We see it in Romans and First Peter. Once and for all, he paid for and finished the paying for our sins. Once and for all. This is emphatic language.
>> That's really good. And when it says uh in 1 Corinthians 11, people had died or got sick for abusing the Lord's supper because they didn't discern the Lord's body, that does not mean they didn't think ah this is turned into uh the literal body of Jesus. It's that they were just thinking at an ordinary meal. They were getting drunk off the wine and just eating all the bread. They weren't remembering that this is pointing us to Christ's body broken and blood shed. Because a lot of Catholics think like we don't do the Eucharist. We don't celebrate the Lord's supper. We do in our churches. It's just that we don't think that it gives us eternal life by taking it. We don't think we're eating Jesus or having him in our mouth. Instead, we are doing this to proclaim the Lord's death and to remember [clears throat] what he's done for us.
>> So, it's not like if they leave Catholicism, therefore they'll never celebrate the Eucharist. In fact, we still do, but just that we have a more biblical view of the Eucharist. [clears throat] And if salvation or forgiveness of sins was attained by eating a meal, eating a meal is clearly a work. That's good. That that would be works based salvation. Now, have you found that many Roman Catholics will say that we are Oh, we don't really teach faith and works for salvation because that sounds bad. Have you found that yourself?
>> Yeah, I think that's part of the ecumenical movement. To believe that Roman Catholicism doesn't teach faith plus works is is is ecumenism. It's a contradiction in terms. So Catholic teaching officially says that they the grace that justifies them is not of our works. So the initial grace that justifies them they're going to say is is of the work of God. However, you have to cooperate. Right? Is it through baptism which is a work [laughter]
>> right? So yeah which they'll say is not a work of course they'll say it's God working through the baptism but we know that that would be false just as Titus teaches. It's a it's a works righteous the righteous work. But the the contrast that they use
>> even just just before you go even even circumcision circumcision was done to people. People didn't do it to themselves.
>> And yet Paul describes that as a work.
>> And so then if they want to say baptism, which is they think replaces circumcision, that would also be a work. Just because they claim it it's not a work, doesn't suddenly make it not a work.
>> Right? They teach in in the catechism 1992, justification has been merited for us by the passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross. And then it goes on to say, justification is conferred in baptism, the sacrament of faith. So it's the beginning of our faith. It's the doorway into being saved, the justification. However, just like we said a couple, so here's a couple of the canon laws on justification from the council of Trent.
>> But the b the baby wouldn't have faith though. They would just say even the baby doesn't have faith, it's still justified by the water going over them.
>> Right? Because the water has salvific practice. That's why it's a sacrament because each sacrament has a element of grace that gets to come across them. And so that's why they call them sacraments. So like you said with the Lord's supper, we call it the Lord's supper. We call it an ordinance. We something that we do, but it's not something that imparts grace to us because we do it. Now in the council of transession 6, it says this, Ryan. It says, "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works, let him be anathema." Goes on and then it says here in canon 26 of the of Council of Transession 6, if anyone says that the just ought not for their good works done in God expect and hope for an eternal recompense or repayment from God, then it goes on, let him be anathema. And if anyone says in canon 31, if anyone says that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view of an eternal recompense, let him be anathema. So if you say if you disagree with canon 26, then you are anathema. And so, and then 32 to sum it up, he says, "If anyone says that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, or that the that the said justified does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life. However, he departed in grace and goes on, let him be anathema." So, you can add to your justification. And so that's why they changed justification. Instead of justification being a declarative act where God's righteousness is imputed to the believer, justification to them is simply a part of the process that you can add to and contribute to and cooperate with. So they change the terminology from the scripture
>> and they will often protest against the word earn. They'll say, "Oh, we don't earn it." But they'll say we merit it.
>> That's a distinction without a difference. That just means exactly the same thing, wouldn't it?
>> Right. Right. Yeah. And it's common among most cults where they just change the definition of terms just like with worship. Yeah.
>> Right. Yeah. So I think for for Catholics who may be listening know that we are not against you as people. In fact we we love you guys. That's why we share this truth. We want people to be set free from the shackles of having to merit their eternal life. Um, I love bringing up Catholic catechism paragraph 2068 which says all men may attain salvation through faith, baptism and the observance of the commandments. So their official catechism agrees that fa faith is not sufficient. They say these extra things are also required obedience to the commandments. Paul says some things about justification by the law and he says that you can't be justified by the law. And yet the Catholic Church says the law is how that's one part of how you get attain attain salvation. So we're not against you Catholics. We just want you to come to trust in Christ. We want you to find the rest that we have to know that you have eternal life. As 1 John 5:13 says, if you believe, you can know that you have eternal life. Would you would you agree with that?
>> Amen. Yeah. As especially as a former Catholic, I have many loved ones and family members that are still in Roman Catholicism. And so when we speak out against any deception, it's not because we hate the people. It's because we don't follow traditions of men. We don't follow doctrines of demons. We expose them as we're called to do. We're to expose the unfruitful works of darkness, but also like we see in Titus 1:9, not only to teach the word, but to also contend against false things, to use the word of God because it's a sword. It's a light. Meaning light has to be shined in darkness. Otherwise, it's not a light. It's just light. And you don't know because you're in light. Light becomes a light when it's shining on darkness. And then you have the sword. And the sword is a double-edged sword. The enemy has a two-edged sword as we learn in the Bible. But we have a two-edged sword. And so ours is sharper than their two-edged sword. But the sword is the Bible rightly divided. And so this is what we have to use for contending. But when it comes to sharing the truth with Catholics, the problem is is that Catholics are trusting in their church. They're trusting in themselves to be able to do these things. And it's cause it's going to ruin their life spiritually because they think they have to confess their sins to a priest for it to be absolved. They think that by going to to mass and sitting in front of the Eucharist, it's going to add to their to their life at the discount of of of studying scripture. We even see this with the different apps they have like the hallow app. If I just sit here and contemplative prayer and just say prayers, I'm going to add to myself an understanding of God. We don't learn who God is by just sitting and staring or praying and talking into ourselves in our head. We learn who God is by the way he has given us to learn of him. And that's through his written word. Jesus says to sanctify them, set them apart, make holy, sanctify them by the truth. Thy word is truth. And so we learn how to pray, how to communicate, how to worship, how to talk and deal with others in the world by the word of God that teaches us how to do that. And so these are the dangers that you see creeping into uh to evangelical Christianity by Roman Catholicism as well. And they're trying to assimilate once again and tell people, you know, the word of God's okay, but let's let's focus on these other things. And and they even use now, Ryan, and they didn't used to do this for many centuries, but they have study Bibles. I don't know if you've seen this one,
>> the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. Very popular one. It's the New and Old Testament. very big book but the whole entire commentary section under you know parts of the Bible under there you have the aspects of quoting the the code of canon law council of Trent different papal bulls and and they're using Catholic terminology then to continue to indoctrinate them. So when a Catholic thinks they're studying their Bible they're actually reading the commentary of men to understand it instead of comparing scripture with scripture and challenging those men. They're not. They're just reading for what they say and taking it for what it is because they don't believe that their salvation can be harmed because their salvation comes through the Catholic Church.
>> I found people who have formerly been say Protestant and they've converted to Catholicism. I ask them usually, "Oh, so do you read your Bible every day now?" No. They maybe used to when they were Protestant, but now as Catholic, they've stopped reading it every day.
>> And that's I just find that a lot of the time that's happening. But Paul says, "Don't go beyond what is written." And Jesus says we live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Which is why we should be getting in it and into scripture. Peter says grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So we are commanded to get into scripture.
>> Yeah. And so
>> if somebody is thinking, I've got to go to confession uh and get baptized and do all these other works to get to heaven as well as believing in Jesus. Would they go to heaven? No. And why not? And and well, they do it because they're trusting in themselves and they're trusting in rituals and practices instead of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross being sufficient for us. And this is to why the Eucharist comes into play, right? And that's a that's an act that has to be done. So they they'll tell you that, oh, unless you eat of it flesh and good blood, you have no life in you. Well, it to so then for me to get eternal life, I have to do a physical thing, drive somewhere and now go through OCIA, RCIA or whatever it is and then eventually receive the Eucharist to have eternal life. But then they'll have a loophole, right? Because you well, if you die before you get to it, well then God will still see that and still help. It's like there's no loopholes. Either Jesus was speaking literally emphatically or he was not,
>> which he's he was not. So that's why we can rest easy. That belief is the only continual thing that's said. It's the only consistent thing is just believing in Jesus Christ. He is who he said he is. That's it. Yeah. Even I saw a picture of how a priest said, "Look, we've only got one hour for confession." And so don't tell us why you did the sin. Just quick, be quick. Tell us the sin and give you absolution. And some people, they've waited in line. There's like 20, 30 people waiting for confession for that one hour. And some people miss out. And so they have to go that week or the next couple days with what they think is in a state of mortal sin. If they die during that time, they're going to hell.
>> And so, you know, think about in the biblical days. Do you would you ever see, oh, look, I couldn't get salvation today. I couldn't get forgiveness because the priest was busy, the apostles were busy, I couldn't that's absurd,
>> right? The apostles just said, you know, when Philippian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" He just said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
>> Mhm. Yeah. Simple as that. And Yeah.
>> Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah.
>> No, it's as simple as that, Ryan. It's just that the simplicity in the gospel is so simple that it's foolishness to people. They think, "No, there's got to be something I have to do. This is too great of something for me to have. I have to do something to earn it." And that's where we start to see all the false religion. Every false religion, every cult adds something to the word of God, to the gospel, and to how we are saved, right? Which is the gospel. They're adding something to it. And so this is what they add to the Holy Spirit, right? This is why they call Mary an advocate. The Bible tells us very clearly the other advocate that comes is the Holy Spirit, right? They give her a saving office in the catechism as they teach and call her the mediatrix, which is the feminine form of a mediator or so, you know, where Jesus is the the man, right? And so you see that type of language with them and and it just confuses them. They don't understand.
>> So this might be controversial, but like you have people like Gavin Nortland and maybe other Protestant YouTubers who say Catholics are all Christians. Even if they believe they're consistent Catholic doctrine, they would still rightly be called Christians. What would you say to that?
>> I would say that's fundamentally wrong. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't saved people with trapped within Roman Catholicism. Like I said, I myself was born again and saved but didn't leave right away. There was a process. And a lot of times people who are awakening to the truth or born again in a deception, they become more zealous for that deception before they completely leave because they're going to study it and try to prove it right before they're humbled to leave. So there's a process. But if you're saved in Roman
Catholicism, you're saved despite of Roman Catholic theology. You're saved because of the gospels, the power of God is salvation because you believed. And so you can be saved.
But to call a practicing uh Roman Catholic who believes and participates in idolatry that's speaking to Mary and the saints and that's adding things to how he can attain eternal life and and thinking that his prayers can merit people the ability to get out of purgatory cuz the blood of Jesus wasn't sufficient to atone them of all sin that they can do these things and offer things up for them start trusting them that's not Christianity and that's one of the problems Ryan right now is that there's these people compromising on this and so Roman Cathol Catholics aren't hearing the gospel because evangelicals are thinking, "Well, they're saved. They're saved." And because they start saying that, they're not giving them the gospel. They're not showing them the reason why Roman Catholicism is not biblical Christianity. And so, Satan's tactic here is to keep them trapped in that cult so they don't get the gospel.
Because we would all agree, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, we would share them the gospel. We'd understand them as a cult. But when you call Roman Catholicism a cult, all of a sudden it's politically incorrect. All of a sudden, people don't want to challenge that or speak on that. But the Catholics, the individual Catholics are the are the victims here. They're not hearing the gospel because they're being told by these other people that, well, they're still Christian and and they could still just go to heaven and get to heaven the same way. And I think it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of what they teach.
"That's really helpful. That is really helpful you say that because if you think that they are Christian, they're all good to go, you won't share the gospel with them. And so therefore, you're wishing them well as they end up in hell. That's not what we want to do. Love speaks out." [snorts]
"Truth can only unite on truth. You know, unity, not on error, but on the essentials."
"And the essentials are not just the trinity. It's also how we're saved by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone is an essential of the Christian faith for someone to be even rightly called a Christian."
"Yes. And so somebody thinks if like in Roman Catholicism they think that you lose your salvation anytime you do a mortal sin. So they could think they're waking up today thinking ah I think I'm in a state of grace or 10 minutes later I did a mortal sin now I'm going to hell. They don't believe in a gospel of grace. They believe in a gospel of performance. And that is not a gospel. That's not good news. That's terrible news. That's the law. The gospel is Christ did everything. We rest in his finished work by faith."
"Yes. and we confess our sins to God. And God is ultimately the one we have to go to when we do sin. And you know, again, that's a fundamental misunderstanding that people have of Catholic theology is they think that Catholics are are trusting in the same thing we're trusting in, but they're adding to the scripture. They're creating for themselves an entity that the Bible never did. And when you hear often times people say, "Well, show me a Christian before 1500." Because you get a lot of these young people online now that are trying to say Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism. No, Martin Luther, the reason he got popular is because he was a Catholic who left the Catholic Church and created an uproar. And it was during a time where they had the printing press and they had the popularity and it was just that time of society where he was able to get notified. But there were men that protested Rome and left that were never even part of Roman Catholicism that didn't believe what they believed for for all the entire time from the very beginning. And so even just you know studying the some of the people like the Waldens and you can get different folks and and studying them and learn about how"
"what time period were they in again?"
"The >> old 13th century time period early on between Oh yeah. 100 Yeah. centuries before Luther. And and so you have them trusting in a lot of the same things we believe. But of course any group that was believing something outside of the Catholic Church, they'll say, "Well, they're just heretics." And they're all, "Well, of course they're heretics." Roman Catholicism classed anybody who was against their power as heretics and they would do this >> probably burn their works as well. You know how they say, "Oh, look how many works do we have that teach baptism not a requirement for salvation?" Well, those works would probably be burned by the Catholic Church because they don't like it. Even Tatalian, he's in his works, he's talking about people who don't think baptism is a requirement for salvation. Do we have their works? No. But we have Italian talking about them."
"And so, we know those people exist. So, God always has a remnant in every generation. those who are trusting in Christ alone."
"Yes, the road is narrow and I think people want to expect to see some huge political empire of Christianity in the past. It's not there. The political empire was the counterfeit Christianity that lost the battle against the new age mysticism and brought new age mysticism right into Roman Catholicism. Just ask a Catholic who knows anything about the Eucharist. It's mystical. It's a mystery. How does it happen? It's a mystery. It's mysticism. It's not biblical Christianity. Even if Jesus says that this is my flesh and my blood, if you want to take it literally, then where does he ever teach that it has to partake in a mass that it has to come from an apostle or or any kind of worship or sacrifice? It's not there. These are added additional rules because Catholic Church doesn't believe that the written word of God is sufficient for us. They don't believe that the word is the sum of thy truth and so that the scriptures cannot be broken, not the teachings."
"Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. And with that one, I love responding to that. Oh, this is my body. Okay. In what sense this is my body? Because Jesus says John the Baptist is Elijah. Are you taking that literally? John the Baptist said he's not Elijah."
"So you [clears throat] got John contradicting Jesus. Who's right here? And we see that clearly just because this is my body does not mean in a literal sense. We can affirm with that that it is his body in the sense of it points us to Christ's body broken and bloodshed, but not that it becomes his body and not that it becomes literally his blood."
"Right? And Luke 8:11 says the same thing. Jesus said the seed is the word of God. And so Catholics will do this and this is unfortunately the extent of most of the youth on social media is they'll say this. They'll they'll say Jesus said this is my body. This is my body. And they'll just increase their vocals and emphasize the word is as if that adds clarity to the theology of it. It doesn't. It's just they're just saying the same word over and over again. But Jesus says, "I am the true vine. Truly the true vine." But he's not truly a vine. Right. And so the same language that comes Right. Right."
"Yeah. That's really helpful. Hey, this is such a great discussion, Patrick. Appreciate your ministry in witnessing out witnessing to Catholics and bringing awareness into the online sphere. So, how could people get in contact with you?"
"Yes. So you can find me on YouTube as Philippians 1:9 Ministries or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram and X as the Bible in context. That's going to be the best way to come check us out. Or if you want to check out some of our resources, we're at philippians 19.org."
"Wonderful. Appreciate you coming up today. God bless."
"I appreciate you having me on, Ryan. God bless."