Transcription
He makes me feel like an insecure or small person sometimes. When he makes comments like, "I don't know if you're going to be a hands-on mom," I feel judged. And that's when I get angry, aggressive. And once I'm at that level, I just-- I can't pull myself back.
[PENSIVE MUSIC]
Someone who works for me had a death in the family. So, the night before, she's kind of hammering me about, "Why do you need to go to this funeral?" And I'm like, "What's the big deal?" And then she says, "I asked you to do something for me. You couldn't do it. But you're going to go to a stranger's funeral."
I said, "What's upsetting you? What exactly are you angry at?" I learned that here. I learned that from you. Yeah.
DESEAN: If you're mad at me because I'm going to this thing, why? Why does that bother you so much? You don't even know this person.
I'm like, "I actually do. She works for me. You know, I'm doing something that involves anyone else. So, now, how dare I, kind of thing, you know?" Like-- I'm getting mad.
ORNA: By this-- Because I cannot get him to wake up before 8:00, or before 10:00 on a Saturday or a Sunday. But you're going to go to this person's sister's funeral? Why? A lot of people die in people's-- mothers, sisters, cousins, brothers, uncles, die at his job. So I need to know who this person is, what the importance of this person is that made you get up.
ORNA: So, I want to try to cut to the chase. The moment you're going, like, "Why aren't you?" you're already back in the same trap. OK.
ORNA: But to start off just from where you are, when you make this kind of decision to wake up Saturday morning and go to this funeral, this is what it brings up for me. It makes me feel like everyone else has a level of priority in his life that I don't. OK. Can you just say that? I want to see what happens.
Can you imagine not even taking the bait and going straight to the heart? Yeah. But what would happen if DeSean said, "You know you're the most important person in my life. I love you. I'm sorry you feel this way." Um--
ORNA: It sucks to feel this way. It'd be nice to hear. But it goes back to what I said before, you know? You can't punch somebody in the face and then tell them, "I love you." Who do I believe? What's the punch? The punch in the face. Like, literally, you can't punch somebody in the face. But what is the analogy? What's the--
The analogy is, you can't do two different-- What was the punch? The punch is you doing exactly what you're sorry about.
ORNA: Meaning going to the funeral? Or making those kinds of decisions. Wait, Elaine. Making me feel that way. He's not making you feel this way. He's not making you feel this way. OK. He's deciding to do something that he thinks is important, yeah. That is not-- that is not the equivalent of punching you in the face. Perhaps the analogy is a little rough. But--
ORNA: It's not only a little rough. It gives you a direct clue as to where these feelings come from. Hmm, that's interesting. Right? You've described a relationship in which the father of your son was that man. That's interesting. Huh.
So here's my thing. If she says, "I would like for you to do things with me on a Saturday morning," and I'm like, "I'd rather sleep in," right? - All the time. Go on. - All the time. And something comes up on a Saturday that would require me to have to get up and go. Am I to never do anything because I've said no to you for this thing? That's what it feels like. It's ridiculous!
ORNA: I understand. It puts the two of you-- I understand each of you. And it puts the two of you in a very difficult spot. She has a need that I cannot fulfill for her as her husband. I can't.
ORNA: The need to feel special? Yeah. I can't fulfill that need for her. I just can't. Nothing I do, absent of just dropping everything and everyone, you know? And just focus on her 24/7, maybe that'll work. I don't know. But she has a need that I cannot provide for her. And--
That's the conclusion you're coming to. To not be able to provide, what's that like for you? It makes me feel inadequate. It makes me feel crappy. I'm the type of person, if I can't bring any value to this, you won't-- you don't need to see me. I won't hang around. I don't want to be a part of it. I'm not going to cause you pain. I'm not going to-- if I can't fix this thing--
ORNA: Let's just stay with this feeling. What you're giving is not--
DESEAN: Not enough.
--not value, not enough. Your love is not enough. Yeah.
ORNA: Can you imagine what that's like? Yes. I mean, but do you hear it? I hear it.
ORNA: Does it matter to you? Of course it does. Of course it does. I mean, I'm leaning more on you in this conversation, because this happens to be a kind of conflict where I feel like you have more work to do about it. So this is not an evenly-distributed pressure. But I need to put pressure on you here. One way to say it is that you're taking a relatively neutral event. And it's like, I mean, to put it in very blunt terms, your history of trauma is pouring color all over it, on a neutral event. And you're ending up feeling horrible and pushing your partner away.
He sent me a text last week about our sex life, that he's not very happy with. Well, how was this text phrased, or?
DRU: I just told her that it's nonexistent. I feel like I'm not wanted.
Meaning you're feeling unwanted, and?
DRU: And feeling like I don't even know how to even go about sex with her anymore, because there's been plenty of times where she's denied it, or she gives an attitude about it. And she's just like, "Oh, fine, OK!" It's not even about the physicality of the sex. It's more the feeling that you get from your partner from that.
ORNA: So, Tashira, how was it to receive this text?
TASHIRA: Oh, I was a little annoyed, to be honest. And I responded to him two days later. And I was honest with him.
Two days, you just didn't respond? No, I didn't. No, I didn't respond. I did not respond.
What was going on inside you during those two days?
TASHIRA: It's difficult to say out loud, that I find that he's more attracted to me than I am of him. And, you know, his weight. And I know that he has an issue with it as well, because we've only had sex maybe three times, completely naked. I mean, I've been completely naked, you know? But he hasn't.
Dru, you don't get undressed? Yeah, I'm just wearing my t-shirt. I'm just used to it, not 100% comfortable with my weight. But down the line, during our relationship, she's-- she's said some bad things in an argument about my weight. So I don't understand how you could make me feel any comfortable in wanting to get fully naked. So, yeah, but to come to the actual point of it, she's just not attracted to me because of my weight. I don't know if it's because of the weight. Maybe I gained a couple weight after the baby was born. And we moved in. Or maybe she's just never been comfortable with it. I don't know. She needs to figure it out, because if she's not attracted, then that's that. Because, obviously, if there's no attraction, there's no relationship. And I'm at that point where I'm just-- every time, it's just a new issue. If it's not, we can't talk about it. She feels like she can't talk to me. Or if it's not the resentment of having the baby, or if it's not the resentment of moving in together. And now it's the weight thing. So, every time, it's just a new-- it's just a new thing, you know? And I'm just tired at this point. I really am.
- Sure. It does-- it does seem like, you, I don't actually get a real sense that you're invested in the relationship. Am I wrong?
No, not to-- no, you're not wrong. What are we doing? I mean, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to work on this. I mean, like I said before--
I think your way of-- of bringing yourself into, let's say, this kind of therapy, might be similar to what you're doing in the relationship, which is, you show up. And your entire message seems to be, "I got nothing." I have no wish here, which might be simply that, indeed, you've got nothing. You don't have any interest, or it might be your way of positioning yourself itself. And I think that's something for you to think really hard about. OK.
What do you want? To be alone with the kids, that's what she wants, to be alone with the kids. Is that what you want? It's not always what I want, you know? I mean, he-- he supports me, you know? And I know that, if something were to happen, he would always be there for me. But I don't know. Maybe I'm just scared.
ORNA: Of?
Of being close to somebody, of giving somebody that-- I gotta check on the baby. He's crying. Giving somebody that power, I guess, of committing to somebody in that way, you know? It's easier when you're alone. It's just you. You don't have to depend on anybody. So, it's not easy. It's not easy for me, I mean.
Hi! - Say hi. - Hi. Good morning! Aw, he's so sweet! Would-- get him on his chair? I'll see you for lunch.
TASHIRA: So, yeah, I think that--
That you have a lot of fear of connecting and depending. Yeah, I do, for sure. And that's what I mean when I say, like, I know he's a good guy. He's one of best guys that I've ever had. So I know that, if I continue this way, I may lose him.
Say more. I mean, I'm trying. I'm here. I'm trying to figure this out and do this with him to the best that I can. But, sometimes, I don't know if I can.
INDIA: I'm originally from Georgia. I'm a Broadway performer.
ORNA: What kind of performer?
A dancer. I've been in a Broadway show for eight years now.
Wow!
INDIA: Yeah. - What's the show?
INDIA: The Lion King.
- Lion King, wow. Yeah, yeah. The month after I got in, I met him. We dated for four years. And that was a whirlwind of drama. I feel like there's definitely underlying issues we struggle with. And, sometimes, it shouldn't be as stressful as it-- it doesn't have to be this stressful, or this hard.
Yeah.
DALE: Yeah. And I think that, as African-Americans, I feel like we come into relationships with a lot of trauma that we're not necessarily willing to acknowledge. And there has to be a lot of self-searching, if you will, in order to realize how it affects your relationship.
Yeah.
DALE: Yeah. Like, I'm from an immigrant family. I came here as an immigrant child.
Describe the background.
I was born in Guyana. And we moved to Antigua when we were about four-- when I was about four years old, and then moved up here when I was about 14 or 15. You know, coming from a different country, this rude awakening of New York City, and being different. And kids always made fun of me.
ORNA: Yeah. Your accent, too.
Yeah, my accent as well, yeah. Well, you don't have it anymore, but--
She always says that I changed myself because, most of the times, my accent is not recognizable anymore. Right.
INDIA: Yeah, just about his entire family still has their-- what I would call, their native tongue, their accent. But he doesn't. I found that very interesting.
Interesting. It is interesting. So, yeah, with my accent, I started to train myself how to speak. How to speak so that kids will find you more like them.
DALE: Yeah. Yeah, like, as a kid, I would talk to myself in the mirror and build my own confidence. But--
That's a big thing in this relationship. He has done a really good job of building his self-confidence. I always joke and say, like, he loves him some him. But he makes me feel like an insecure or small person sometimes, when he makes comments like, "I don't know if you're going to be a hands-on mom." I feel judged! And that's when I get angry, aggressive. And once I'm at that level, I just-- I can't pull myself back.
ORNA: Yeah. And I say really hurtful things.
How does it sound between the two of you?
We-- we just had a child who's 11 months. Well, she's going to be 11 months on Friday.
INDIA: Yeah. And India said to me that-- I think we were in an argument one time. And she said, "Oh, that's why I didn't want to have a baby with you."
I did. I did say that. I'm sorry. OK. You're upset. And you said something that you didn't mean. But you cannot convince her that that's not what she meant. So, where do I go with this? What do I do?
See, here's the tough part, because he says that, right here, right now, that he's trying to convince me that that's not what I believed. But that's how I felt, because Dale has another child. He's been married before. And so, he already knew what to do here. He's already done this. So I was feeling criticized. And this is why I was afraid to parent with him. I just always-- he just makes me feel inadequate in everything. Mm-hmm.
I have not been a very trusting person. Like, I have never been an incredibly trusting person. And I don't feel like I was chosen. Like, kind of, I was, like, a pretty sturdy backup. So in your mind, this other person became your competitor. And you didn't really win the competition. He lost. But you didn't win. Yeah. And, like, maybe part of the reason why I'm so interested in this idea of, like, opening the relationship and us going our separate ways and coming back is because, like, maybe that means we actually kind of, like, re-chose.
ORNA: What's your reaction, Kristi?
So, he was never a competition. Like, there was not any-- like, it was a one-off. And then, it's frustrating because I feel like, "I did choose you. I do choose you. And I have proven that every day for the past two years. I prove it all the time." I get what you're saying. But, for Brock, it meant something else. You introduced another person in there that meant something to him. But his own way of experiencing the world in competition is a serious thing. You can't both introduce it, and then say, "But I don't want to deal with what it's doing to you."
It's not even that. But it's just, like, I feel like I'm at a loss for how to help him.
ORNA: So, Brock, you said about yourself that you're not trusting, in general.
BROCK: Yeah.
ORNA: Can you say more about that?
Yeah. Like, I think my first true relationship experience was kind of a love triangle. I felt like she put me into one. And she really enjoyed watching me compete.
So that was sort of the template, the first template? Yeah, yeah.
ORNA: Very tough. How many siblings are you?
BROCK: Oldest of three.
ORNA: Was one of you favored?
My brother.
ORNA: He was favored?
Well, favored by my parents, no, but favored by genetics, maybe. Like, I was always a little more pudgier. I had really bad acne. My brother was more of an athlete.
ORNA: So he was, like, better-looking?
BROCK: Yeah, I would say so, as a kid. I mean, this is the truth. My brother got his first kiss before I did. So we always joke. Like, I had to go to my younger brother to, like, "Dude, what was it like?" [LAUGHS] You know? And so, that's why, like, I think my first relationship was so devastating, was because I was still really in the throes of what I would consider, just, I just looked really bad. So that might be one of the old stories that's getting reworked here. Yeah.
Where are you, Kristi, listening to this? I feel like there's a chance to rewrite the past now. But we're missing each other. And I'm trying to say, like, "I really love you. And I really love us. I just want you to believe that."
What happened there? Well, I was home. I knew he was out with his friends. It was, like, 4:00 o'clock in the morning. So I just texted him and said, "I'm going to guess that you hooked up. I'm going to guess that you were with someone." And he said, "Yes, I was." And I said, "OK."
What was it that made you want to have this experience? He said something like, "I think it's the fact that he's deaf that made it likely to happen, because there was a connection." And then I looked back at the majority of the men that he has had a relationship outside of our relationship. They've all been deaf. So then I started to, like, link things. I was like, "Is all of this about you being deaf, needing to hook up with other deaf men, because you're filling up a cup that you're not getting at home?"
In essence-- Are you asking? Yeah, I think that's a question. I ask myself occasionally, not occasionally, once in a blue moon, if he were deaf, what would that relationship look like? I have no idea. But this goes back to, who am I as a person? And these hookups are coming from a place of feeling frustrated because, growing up, I never really experienced liberation or freedom, or whatnot. So, I'm just going to try it. And I don't know. Is Kyle answering your question? I think he's only making me want to ask more.
ORNA: OK.
MONDO: Yeah. Is that why I'm feeling triggers of inadequacy when you choose a deaf person to hook up with? That's what came to you? The inadequacy was completely, like, off. The light was off. It was just like, err, err, right? Yeah.
MONDO: Which also fuels the anger. And then, all of a sudden I'm like, "Well, we've just had a nice, healthy blowout."
Do you feel burdened sometimes, that you may not really understand me?
MONDO: I don't feel a burden. I love you so much that, whatever happens, I'll do it!
I've struggled a lot with food, and, like, my relationship with food, like, disordered eating, just a really unhealthy relationship with it, punishing myself, overexercising, restricting, then overeating. Like, I don't know-- like, spending money. Yeah.
Tell me more what you mean by that. Well, go for it! OK, all right. Katherine went out with Luna on-- I forget what day it was. - Friday. Friday. And they were gone for most of the day. And I think they did a lot of fun stuff. And then Katherine called me on her way home and said, "I've spent a lot of money." Well, I was trying to warn you before you looked at our account.
She tried to warn me, right. Yeah, it was, like, close to $1,000 just for the day, which actually represented, like, a pretty good chunk of money that, like, we needed.
KATHERINE: What did I spend it on? I took her out to eat, twice. We went to the nail salon. And I spent $280 at Sephora. That's how Sephora is. It's like a vortex. And it sucks you in!
NICK: I think that the thing here is that, like, this happens often. This is not the first time. Like, she will leave the house with Luna. And they will go to Target. And there'll be, like, a $470 bill, whereas, if I leave the house-- Target is also, like, a vortex.
NICK: No, but, like, whereas, if I leave the house with Luna, Luna gets one toy for, like, $50. And I'm mulling over, like, a $20 shirt. But, like, I think this is less about me and my power and my control, and more about, like, some stuff that you've been working through since you were younger, dynamics with other people that are outside of money.
That have to do with money, class? Yeah, I mean, like, it's same thing. Class, but, also, I think being bullied, people being mean, feeling not attractive, feeling not cool, all of those things, which she is. But, like, so not enough, not enough?
NICK: Yes, not being enough.
KATHERINE: Like, I remember being ashamed of my neighborhood and, like, my house, and, like, people coming over. And when I was 12, 13, I was, like, really overweight. And I even look back at photos of myself then. I try to find, like, love for this person. And I'm like, "Wow, Katherine. Like, you were a disaster." And it still lives in me. And it's so crazy because I'm like, I'm 40. Like, that person is not me anymore.
Well, so, let's think about these arguments about money and what might be happening between the two of you with all of this in mind. Do you have thoughts? I don't know. There's a lot to unpack with me, too. So I play a role here with my own financial stuff because I had a gambling addiction. I've gone through not having money. I know what it's like to want. And then, I know what it's like to literally, like, go through cognitive behavioral therapy and become very controlled around it. But I also recognize that, like, if it is an addiction or it's something that runs deeper, you can't tell your partner, like--
Don't do that.
--don't be addicted to something. Don't-- I mean, she's fighting a deeper feeling. And for me, it comes from that place of compassion, which is, like, I want her to have a healthy relationship to food. I want her to have a healthy relationship to herself. I want her to love herself. It goes back to the original thing, which is, actually, like--
- But the difference is--
I do see you. And I actually want you to not shop. On the ayahuasca retreat, you would have just hugged me and been like, "I love you." That's what hurts me, is, like-- and that's what I feel like we're losing. It's like, I just want, like, like, warmth, and, like, someone who's, like, who I know loves me and is, like, there for me. And I haven't been feeling like that from you recently. You're, like, cold sometimes, and removed, and, like, aloof. I don't feel like I have, like, someone who just loves me. Mm-hmm.
KATHERINE: You know? Like, I don't get that, from anyone, except my daughter. And I've been letting her, like, sleep with me at night because she, like, cuddles me, and, like--
Just holding.
KATHERINE: Yeah, and, just-- and I like that. Like, I need that. I think, if we had to talk about, like, the underlying theme that we're getting closer to, is this sinkhole of deprivation, of not having enough. And, like, me trying to fill that with, like, things, whether it's food, whether it's stuff, whether it's, like, attention. And you're saying to Nick, maybe a hug or warmth would be enough. Warmth, being like, "It's OK. Like, just hearing that, like, you're enough." Mm-hmm. You're enough.
KATHERINE: Yeah.