Transcription
Welcome to Mormon Book Reviews, an evangelical encounters, the restoration. I'm your host, Steven Pinecker. And as all of you know, uh, there has been quite a bit of news lately about the lawsuit that has been filed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints against John Delin, uh, and the Mormon Stories podcast. Uh, this has to do with copyright, trademark, colors, all these kind of things. And apparently the church wants John Delin to quit using the term Mormon because it's, it's viewed as being confusing. Um, and it's an interesting development that's happened and of course, all of us podcasters and all these people in our, in this space are watching this lawsuit with great interest. But I just thought, I think it's really important as here at MBRS, what we're trying to do is kind of document history in real time. And I think this is an undertold story that many people are not aware of. Uh, Matthew Gil has been on my program more than a few times. And I know we've discussed the lawsuit, but Matthew's church, okay, was sued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Matthew is the prophet, sir, and revelator of his church. Uh, Matthew, uh, welcome to the program.
>> Thank you for having me, Steve. It's a pleasure to be with you. So, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about this interesting story where Matthew has now, we're, dude, how long has it been? When did you start your church?
>> Um, '08 we start, um, yeah. So, we, we, we unofficially started in like '06, '07 and we started to steamroll from '08 onwards, really. Um, so, um, we've been around for a while. Um, we've been, we've been in the space for for a long time and, um, we've been on lots of shows, been on yours a couple of times, spoke about the scriptures and stuff, but, um, yeah, I was fascinated with all of the, uh, all of the stuff that's transpired with regards to the Mormon Stories podcast and the litigation there. So,
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is important to tell your story. Um, Matthew, you are uh, part of the restoration. You have translated scriptures. You've uh, used the Y German thumbum. You've had plates. You've had other items that you've translated as well. Um, the Chronicles of the Children of Aron are your scriptures. And we're actually going to later on at the end of this, going to have a conversation with your son Levi about an exciting new project that your church is initiating and preview that for our audience. But Matthew, I want us to go, you to go back because originally the name of your church was the Latter-day Church of Jesus Christ. Is that correct?
>> That, that's correct. Yes, that was the first name that we used right, right off the bat. Um, we didn't really think there was anything. We, we used, we used a couple of names. So, we used the Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ as the official name of the church. And we also used the term Latterday Mormon as, um, uh, as like a, a hashtag type thing. And we did that for years and years and years. Um, and we didn't, we had a really, really rudimentary website. It wasn't great, but it wasn't brilliant either. Um, and we, we just hummed along for a long period of time using those titles and the website. And then out of nowhere, um, I want to say 2016, out of nowhere, we got, um, we got a letter from the LDS church telling us they wanted to sue us for, um, breach of trademark, um, infringements and things. And, um, you know, from, for a, for an organization our size, that was really scary because, you know, you've got this massive behemoth on the one side who can pretty much do what they like. And you got a little, uh, excuse me, you've got a little organization like ours that doesn't have a lot of money, that is pretty much family run. And, uh, you know, it's quite scary when you get a, uh, a mail, an envelope in the mail. It's like this thick and it's got like everything in it. It's got, you know, pictures. It's got comparisons. It's so it was really scary time. But after we all sat down, looked through the paperwork and saw exactly what they were trying to to do, we realized that, um, some of it was, uh, uh, fightable. You know, we could go to, we could go to bat on a lot of the issues because they weren't just coming after us about the name of the church or the organization. They were coming after us for using, um, terminology like Mormon.
>> Uh, they were coming after us for using the words the Book of Mormon. Um, there was, there was, there was a whole list. There was things like latter day. You couldn't use those in the same sentence. You couldn't use, um, Mormon in the same sentence as, uh, the Book of Mormon. They wanted us to to to take off the website completely the fact that we used the Book of Book. And we were just like, well, you know, we're not going to, we're not going to do that because if we do that, then we're pretty much out. There's nothing left for us to do. It would be a complete and utter, uh, disaster. We wouldn't be able to, uh, preach on the Book of Mormon. Won't be able to, you know, sell copies of the Book of Mormon. And we just thought, no, let's be sensible about this. Let's, um, let's fight it. Let's see what we can do, um, to to combat what they were trying to do to us. Now, we, we didn't think we would win completely because of those type of things. You're never going to win a complete argument unless you've got very deep pockets and you're prepared to go into court and you're prepared to litigate for years and years and years and years. And you know, we just didn't have that option. So, um, you know, it was, it was a very testing time, very, very testing time. I remember the, we didn't, we didn't actually go to a, a, a branch of lawyers to begin with. We thought that we could handle it ourselves nicely. So we arranged a, uh, a video conference with the people in Salt Lake. They were unprepared to to do a time that was suitable for us. So, we pretty much have to stay up really, really late to get on to this call. Uh, so my dad handled that call and, um, he went into it pretty naively. I think we went in there with like, okay, we've had this. What can we talk about? What can we, what can we come to an agreement on because we're not prepared to do everything. Said it's lawsuit. They were like, "No, no, you've got to do everything. You've got to take down your website. You've got to stop using the word Mormon. You've got to stop using the Book of Mormon." Um, there was just no room for, for, for negotiation or maneuver. And when we knew that that was their stance, we came away and we decided that we had to take legal advice. And that's exactly what we did.
>> Uh, just real quick, >> before you continue, I actually am very curious about this meeting. So your father >> was had a, a, a conference call, video conference call, I'm assuming.
>> Yep. Video conference caller.
>> Video conference call. And were these with lawyers? Was it, was it Curtain Maki that he was talking to?
>> No, it wasn't lawyers. I think it was the people involved in the department in Salt Lake that had issued the paperwork. So, it wasn't like a, we, it wasn't a legal conversation. We wanted to arrange a meeting to talk to the people in the department that issued the paperwork to the lawyer because it came through their lawyers, but we weren't prepared to go to their lawyers and talk to a third party. We wanted to go to to them and find out why.
>> Okay. So, was this, uh, was this the intellectual reserve that you?
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, you have a, so your father has a conference call with the intellectual reserve, >> and, and, and basically they just say, "No, we want you to pull everything. We don't want you using the term Mormon, latter day. We don't want you even using the Book of Mormon." That's an interesting thing. Okay.
>> Um, right.
>> So, that, so, okay. This is, okay. So at this point then you had this meeting and, and just so I know, Matthew, was there a reason why you did not participate in that call?
>> Uh, I'm not too sure now. I know it was very, very late. I might have been ill. I can't remember. But I know, I know Phil took the meeting.
>> Okay.
>> Because he came to talk to me after about it and we, we went because it was, you know, pretty obvious that they weren't going to or weren't prepared to negotiate.
>> Okay.
>> It was an, it was an either or. You either do these things or you don't. So,
>> All right. So, your dad has the call. Basically, they, they lay down the law, if you will, and say that you have to pull all this stuff. At this point, you decide that you need to get some legal advice on on how to proceed. Okay. Continue with the story, Matthew.
So, so after we, after my dad had the call with them, we decided to sit through the paperwork and, and, and, and properly examine everything because I mean, the envelope was really, really thick and we'd looked primarily through the paperwork at the beginning before my dad had the video call. So we knew roughly what they wanted us to do, but we looked through everything before we went to the legal advice because we wanted to make sure that firstly they could do this. Uh, and secondly, whether, whether we could, um, fight it legally. There's no point going down the legal route if you don't think you're going to have a case. So we, we, you know, we went through it all and, um, we, we, we, we found out whilst going through the paperwork that they, they had used European trademark law to trademark things in Europe that they can't do in the United States because of the constitution. So already we knew that although the paper was issued in the United States, they used European trademark law to come after us. They didn't use the, the laws that they were necessarily going to use in America to go after American organizations. So we knew at that point that we could argue away the European trademark law because, uh, firstly, the European Union isn't anything like the United States. It's, it's, it's fractured and it's all over the place. So we knew we could go into battle over some of the issues and some of the issues are really stupid, like you use the wrong shade of blue on your website. It, you need to remove that shade of blue. Either go darker or get rid of it. And we were like,
>> "Okay." So, so they actually went after you for the colors as well?
>> Oh, yeah. There was a whole raft of colors. There was blue, there was green, there was like a, like a red, uh, there was like a beige color, and there were all these colors. And we were like, "Okay, let's go through the website. Let's go through our website and see." And they sent us, they'd sent us, um, uh, images of their website and our website. And we were looking at these. There's no, there's no, there's no real comparison here. Anybody who mistakes our website for the LDS website is either blind or mentally inept because the, the two were just like chalk and cheese. So we knew that color wasn't the issue. They just put that in there because they could. The real issue was the fact that we were using words that they had trademarked in the European Union that they thought that they could beat us over the head with. Um, so at that point we thought, well, no, we're, you know, European law, European Union law is, is fightable. You know, you can fight European Union law and you can win.
>> And not only that, but at this point, didn't Brexit already occur or wasn't Brexit?
>> Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, it was, it was roughly around that period of time and I think we might have even discussed that, is this even going to make any difference?
>> So with all that in mind, we wrote down, uh, a list of all the things we weren't prepared to to compromise on and all the things that we really didn't care compromising on. Like if you don't want us to use blue, then we won't use blue. It's irrelevant, really. We weren't prepared to compromise on, um, the Book of Mormon issue because in the European Union trademark, they not only trademarked the word Mormon, they had trademarked the word the Book of Mormon. And we, we knew straight away we had to fight that because unlike in the United States where the Book of Mormon is, uh, public domain, it's not like that over here. And they can do a lot of things they can do over here, they can't do in the United States and some of the things that their trademark were just ridiculously silly. I mean, basically what they tried to do in Europe is to hamstring anybody from from, uh, using the Book of Mormon who wasn't LDS and we were going to fight that because it's fundamental to our faith. And then when you think about the Book of Mormon being trademarked, then you have to look at all the little side things like Joseph Smith and church history. We just weren't prepared to compromise any of those things. So we, my dad contacted a friend of his, uh, who was a trademark lawyer and, uh, we had a conversation with him and he said, "Look, this is, this is too big for me. I think you should use, uh, thermosisters in the UK, uh, who can handle this kind of stuff." So we went to, uh, WG growing company in, uh, in Birmingham and, uh, we, we, we, we sent them all the paperwork. We spoke to the, the lady who was dealing with our case and, um, she basically said, "We'll do it for free because it's like a bully in the playground. This, this gigantic mammoth organization are going after a, let's be honest about it, a very, very small minnow, right? Uh, they've got more money than they know what to do. So you can't beat them financially, um, but we're prepared to to take on a case where we can really go into the playground and protect you from the bully." So they did all the work for free.
>> Wow.
>> Um, which was great for us, really great for us. So we didn't have to spend any money, but they handled it exceptionally well. And, um, she told us straight from the back, she said, "Look, don't talk to them anymore. Don't, if they try to contact you, don't talk to them. Send all correspondence to us. We will contact them directly and we will deal with their solicitors that they're using." And, uh, that's exactly what we did. And we waited and waited and waited, uh, until they, she came back with a list of proposals that, um, that they, that they had managed to negotiate. And, um, we went back and said, "No, we can't do this, but we're prepared to do X." So, we went back and forth for a bit, a little bit, and finally came to an agreement on, um, on a few things. They, they relented on using the word the Book of Mormon, which was great for us. They relented on us actually using the Book of Mormon because they wanted us to stop using it altogether. So, we won that little battle. Um, uh, however, um, you know, the, the really big battle, I suppose, they really won in the end because we, we had to change the name of the, the organization. Um, which it probably worked out best for us, really. Um, but it was still, uh, it was still very, very hard for us to admit that we have to change the name of the organization. But it was a, it was a bit of give and take. It was a bit of, "Okay, we're prepared to do this," and they were like, "No, we're not prepared to do that. We can take to court. We can be in there for six, seven months." Well, we're not prepared to do that. So, if we have to go to court over the Joseph Smith Book of Mormon, we will do that. But they came back in and said, "That's okay, you can, you can use those as long as there's no direct link to to us." And we made the argument that there was never any direct link from us to them anyway. We had a disclaimer on the very, very, very first website in bold red, "We are nothing to do with the LDS church." So, that was the disclaimer was already there. So, we were, you know, bit on plus about why on earth they thought it was a big issue anyway. So that's pretty much how it played out. But yes, it was, it was extremely difficult, extremely taxing, extremely, um, hard emotionally and, uh, at the end of the day, we saw it as a, a bully in the playground. We saw it as, um, a bigger guy coming into a smaller area and saying, "We can do this to you." Now, if we were in the United States, a lot of those things they tried to do would have, would have not been able to do anyway. And that's the one of the arguments we made. The only reason you're able to do a lot of this stuff to us is because we are not in the United States. We're in Europe and you've trademarked a heck of a lot of things here that you cannot trademark in the United States. That's a bit naughty, right? That's like through the back door type, um, stuff. So, um, we made that argument and, um, we let the lawyer handle it and, um, we came out, we, we came out of it with the things we wanted to come out with it. So, we were happy, really, I suppose. Right.
>> Well, that's still >> so glad you're sharing this because this is the actually the first time we've really dug deep into this subject and I had no idea that the extent of this lawsuit and how the talks happened and even the use of the color blue was an issue. Genuinely fascinating to me to see this. And it's also interesting how the church was attempting to essentially take control of even the using the term the Book of Mormon in Europe.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Um, that, that's that's a really interesting development. And I'm so glad we're having this conversation because in light of what's happened recently with John Delin and Mormon Stories, um, I imagine this sounded very familiar to you when this lawsuit was filed. So maybe comment on your thoughts that.
>> When I saw that, uh, Mormon Stories podcast had been, uh, had been raped over the coals, I was like, well, yeah, that sounds familiar. Um, look, you know, as far as Mormon Stories podcast is concerned, I, I disagree with them fundamentally on lots of things, right? Uh, I wouldn't say I'm that one. I'm not, I'm a big fan. However, that said, they should have the right in this space to say and do, uh, whatever they wish to say and do. And they should have the right to use words that are fundamentally linked to the original organization of the church. No. In my opinion, what he's been asked to do firstly is ludicrous and secondly, I think is immoral. How, how an organization can stand up like the LDS church and say, as they have done recently, that we are to treat everybody as our neighbor and our friend and at the same time go around doing, uh, legal damage to organizations, let's be fair, that are only giving their version of what they believe the restoration is, effect. Now, I, I disagree fundamentally with a lot of things John Delin says, but I agree with his right to say them and I agree with his right to use whatever words he wishes to use. This is yet again another example of the LDS church having more money than they have brains and using that money, in my opinion, in a holy inappropriate and unholy manner. You don't have to do what you're doing to him and to his podcast. This could have been a com. Look, everybody knows that the LDS church backs certain podcasts on the internet without a doubt, financially and and with, um, public relations, advert, whatever it might be. But we all know they're there. We all know they exist. So, it's okay when they approve it. But if you're saying something that they don't like, they come after you. I just think it's, it's, it's immoral. Let's just put it that way. For an organization that recently had a general conference and made a big deal about treating everyone as their friends and their neighbors as their friends and walking in a Christlike attitude. This wouldn't be something that Jesus Christ would do. This wouldn't be something that you would find Jesus Christ saying to people, "Oh, go after them. Let's, let's bring them down. Let's, let's do them legal harm. Let's do a financial harm. Let's put them out of business." It's, it's not right. And the problem we have, well, I don't think John Delin has his problem. He could probably afford to go to battle over the issue, but I just think picking on people like this and forcing them into financial difficulty, let's say, and forcing them into positions that they don't want to be in, it just is not the way Christ would would run his church. Certainly not the way that I believe that they should be running their organization, but, um, you know, who am I? I mean, I just hope, I just hope and pray that, uh, that he gives a good fight to himself and, and that Mormon Book Reviews are allowed to carry on doing what they're doing. So, um, my, my thoughts and my prayers are with him. Obviously, I don't want to see them go out of business. I certainly don't want to see them off the air. As much as I disagree with a lot of the stuff he says, I think you should be allowed to say it. And, um, that's pretty much where I stand on that issue.
>> Okay. Wow. Interesting. I think thank you for giving your sharing your opinion, Matthew. Of course, all the voices of the restoration we listen to here and I think you're a very important voice and I think it's, uh, good that we're just, we're, we are, um, putting it into the historical record of what the story, your story is. And I know I had asked you to see if you could find those documents and at the moment you're, you, you believe they're somewhere in your home, but you're unable to find them now. But I would heartily recommend to you very strongly that you, uh, retrieve those records and maybe we could get those images out so people can see, uh, what the lawsuit, uh, was all about.
>> I'd love if I, if I can find them, Steve, I'd love for you to to to have a copy of them. I mean, they're in the public record. So, um, I'm sure if I couldn't find them, I could go back to the solicitor and see if they retained a copy, which they almost certainly would have done. So, um, the, the, the point, the point that reason I came on the show really, the point I was, I'm trying to get across to the audience is this. Look, the restoration is a big family. You know it, right? You've talked to loads and loads and loads of different people from all walks of life in the restoration. It's a huge family. But the problem is when you have an organization like theirs that believe that they are the sole voice of authority within that space, that gives them license to do a lot of things that you and I probably wouldn't do. That gives them a lot of license because they are right. No one else is right. They are the only truth. They're the only ones with authority. They're the only ones who can speak for God. They're the only ones that can have the Book of Mormon. And as you and I both know, that's absolutely rubbish. So the problem we face continually within the restoration space is you have, unfortunately, this organization that is not prepared at any cost to admit that these other voices that they don't like to hear have a right to air their voices. Um, and, uh, I just think it's very, very sad. I really think it's very, very sad that in the 21st century, in the year 2026, when we're supposed to be the most enlightened we've ever been, apparently, um, we're still coming across the issue where organizations are going to war with one another because of words. And let's be honest about it, they disowned that word, didn't they? I mean, uh, Russell M. Nelson got up in general assembly and basically said, "You to use the word Mormon is to is to fight Satan's battle for him." So you can't say in, in one public breath, you don't want to use the word, drop it from virtually everything you do, and then go after somebody that wants to use the word because it's about control. It's about coercive behavior, and we know all about those type of things. They're not really great signs, really, are they? So, um, yeah, it's very sad. The problem is it won't stop. It won't stop. Doesn't matter how many lawsuits they put out there, it won't stop because, as I said, they're the only ones in the space who are true. They're the only ones God speaks to. So, so I just, I just want to give some context here too, folks, is that, you know, first of all, the name Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints is not exclusive to the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. As a matter of fact, what I find so interesting is because of copyright and everything like that, you have full caps, churches use Christ for Latter-day Saints without the hyphen, which is what is often, uh, associated with the Strangite Church. What I find interesting is they will do full capitalization on their church signage, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints without a lowercase D. So in my mind, if you know, if they can sue over these things, I, I wonder, does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do they, could they sue for them using a very similar name to theirs? Then we have, of course, the Church of Jesus Christ, which, um, people have said they could potentially sue the church for using the term Church of Jesus Christ because the Church of Jesus Christ has been using the term very for a very, very long time and I believe has it copyrighted. I don't, or trademark. I don't, as well, but I, I'm, I'm not, I'm unsure of that. So don't quote me on that. But there, I do think it is recognized by the state of Pennsylvania as being the formal church of the name, uh, name of their church. But then we also have this thing about like color scheme and all these other things and, and, and I, I just, what concerns me is is that if, if this happens again, folks, you know, I'm not anti Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. Obviously, I'm friendly to the church. I'm friendly to the restoration in general. Uh, but I also think that sometimes we have to do talk about these situations when there is, uh, the church going after a very high-profile person in John Delin and the Mormon Stories podcast, and we now know that the same exact playbook was used against you around 10 years ago and your church, and because you didn't have the, the resources, fortunately, you had somebody that was able to go to back to you, and so your costs were at a minimum, but if you wanted to really fight this, it would have probably been a legit religious thing that would have lasted years and I imagine that the resources that you would have had to put out would have, you wouldn't have been capable of probably putting that out there. So, it's really interesting just to see that this, this history is repeating itself. Um, and this is an undertold story that really hasn't been told until now. Um, that you were sued over using the term Latter-day, >> uh, Saints. You were sued for using the term Mormon. Um, you, and you were also, um, told you can't use a particular, a color being blue. Uh, boy, that sure sounds familiar, doesn't it?
>> Oh, it's very, I mean, when I saw it, I was like, "Wow, yeah, that's, that's very similar to what happened to us."
>> I think it's, it's interesting that they don't, they're not, they're not always doing this. The LDS church, they're not, you know, always going after people. They tend to go after people that, um, how would you say, uh, have some kind of presence that in an area where they don't like. For instance, Mormon Stories podcast, if I was being really, really cynical, you could say, "Yeah, okay. Maybe I could see why they're going after John Delin. He says some pretty, um, what would you say? Combative stuff." Okay, maybe. Right. For that, for that, maybe they could. But they, they went after us. Look, the fact of the matter is, in the UK, there are only really two, two, um, restoration organizations because we don't really class the Community of Christ anymore, fortunately. There's, there's the LDS church which have a massive footprint, huge footprint, right? And then, and then there's us. So if, if, if you're alone in the park for a long period of time and you've had the whole area to yourself and all of a sudden someone comes along, even if it's just a minute, and they start talking about things that you normally talk about, and they start garnering attention, and they start appearing on, uh, podcasts or they start doing interviews and they start selling Books of Mormon or whatever it might be, they suddenly take interest and go, "You weren't in the park 10 minutes ago. And because this is our park, we're going to make you pay to be here." Um, that's pretty much the attitude they're having, I think, with Mormon Stories. I think that they, they've looked at, look, the fact of the matter is, they're not going to nail him on using the word Mormon, are they? I mean, if everybody did that, you'd be in trouble. There'd be so many people in trouble for using. They're not going to nail him on that. They're not, I don't think they'll nail him on anything. Their reason they're doing that is because he's said stuff that they don't like. He's said stuff that's ruffled their feathers. And maybe that's wrong and maybe it's right. But the fact of the matter is, this is a big space. You're going to get people that say stuff you don't like all the time. Be an adult and grow up and accept the fact people are going to say things you don't like. You know, that's the way I look at it. There's people that say things about me I don't like all the time, but I'm not, I'm not constantly on the phone to a solicitor going, you know what? I don't like that guy. He said something I don't understand. Let's see what we can nail him off. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's uncristlike and it's unhelpful. They don't, we don't need that. We don't need this in this space. There's enough battles to wage in this space as it is already. I mean, we don't, you don't need all these lawsuits and going after people and trying to shut people down. It's, it's not right. Um, I would just say to to John Delin, stand your ground, be firm, you know, until it gets to the point where you can't. Stand your ground and be firm because they won't relent. Not unless, not unless they're, they're, they're pushed into a corner about relenting. We managed to get them to relent on issues of European trademark law. I don't know what the case in America is other than I know that a lot of these things they're going after John Delin for under public domain. You could, you could say that they're, they're constitutionally, uh, combative. You have the, you have the freedom of religion in your constitution. It's laid down in law. We don't have that here. So, he's, John's got a lot of things on his side right now. So, I'd imagine he's not too worried, I would imagine, cuz he knows that he can probably fight a lot of these issues and win. And I would tell him to do that. The last thing anybody wants to do is to give a bully, uh, which is what I consider they are, um, points. You don't want to do that. You don't want to make the bully feel even more involved. So, you know, stand your ground, be firm, and, uh, but also be sensible as well. If you have to relent on certain issues to stay in business, then I would suggest you take the color blue down if you have to. It's not going to, it's not going to really hurt his business model any. But, um, I certainly wouldn't be left over things like wouldn't do it, >> you know.
>> So, I just want to kind of push back a little bit on you and just try to look at it from the other side. And if I'm, if I'm the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I see this guy, this little upstart in England, all right, >> and he's calling his church, he's saying he's a prophet here and revelator and he's saying, "Oh, we're the Latter-day Church of Jesus Christ and they're also saying they're Mormon." Don't you think that the, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints might have an argument to make that you're, you were deliberately trying to confuse people?
>> Only if they believe that they have a God-given right to those terms and terminologies. Uh, unfortunately, if they do believe that, um, my argument to them would be on, and it was on the issue. We're not having, I mean, you do realize how gross what, what we have in the bank, right? You do realize how many books we send out a year. You do realize how big our branch is. Yes. They have no idea. Um, they don't look at all. They look at all. They all they concern themselves with when they're going into that litigation mode is, "These people are using words that we believe are ours." We don't care at at this point whether you've got a thousand members or 100 members or 10 members. We don't care. We don't, we don't care how much you have in the bank. You're using words we consider to be ours. The argument our lawyer made is that they're not yours because you couldn't do this in the United States. This law, this lawsuit you're trying to bring against this organization couldn't happen in America for a lot of these reasons. Um, which is why I think John Delin will eventually come out on top with a lot of the issues. I, I don't think, uh, I don't think he'll have to relent on giving away the word Mormon. Um, but I don't, they could, they can say that they like, they could say, "Well, you, you were misleading people, taking people away from from our website and you were misleading people." Uh, that's, that's a fair argument to make, I suppose, if you want to make that argument. My argument would be, well, leading people away from on to what? It's not like I've got 20,000 members over a period of six months. It's not like we've, we've just made 2 million dollars in six months. It's, it, it doesn't make any, that that argument to me makes no sense at all. So, in that case, you'd be going into battle against every organization in the space every day. They don't do that because they know it's silly. They can't win those battles. The reason they don't go to battle against, um, uh, the Church of Jesus Christ is because they, they can't win the argument. The reason they don't go to battle on a lot of these issues because they know they can't win the argument from from either a moral or a legal standpoint. The only reason they went after us is because they saw a loophole under European trademark law that they could exploit. That's it. That's the only reason. And that was the reason, the only reason they were able to do things under European Union trademark law they couldn't do anywhere else and we just weren't prepared and I don't think anybody would be prepared to to say that one organization owns the word Mormon, one organization owns the Book of Mormon and the ability to use it and to propagate it. Because as soon as you do that, then you've got an argument to make against using Joseph Smith at all in any of your literature. And as soon as you start to to to to give way on those issues, the Mormon, the Book of Mormon, Jesus Christ, even, that's the other one they wanted just to stop using. Uh, you're in, you're in a world of mesh because then you've got no, you have to say the whole, the whole of everything that you hold dear has now got to be picked up and thrown into the waste paper basket because one organization, a very powerful organization believes you don't have the right to use those words and it's, it's wrong.
>> Well, thank you for, I appreciate you detailing the story and, and the passion that you bring to it as well. Um, I, I wanted to, uh, I know that you, and your son Levi wanted to share some images of a project you're working on. Before I have Levi come on to discuss this, was there any final words you wanted to share?
>> Uh, pretty much just, we haven't been around for a while since, uh, the end of last year.
>> You know what, and Matthew, actually, thank you for bringing that up because I wanted you to address that. Of course, uh, in December, you guys had to, uh, reduce your, um, activities online because of some threats that you had received. And of course, I did post the video that your son, a member of the First Presidency, um, put out. Um, yeah, please update the audience on what's going on and if we can expect to see more activities on your part and, and what the future looks like.
>> Yeah. So, you know, as I say, from December last year, we've pretty much been inactive on social media. We, you know, we took those steps because of the attacks we were receiving. And as I said at the time, it, I wouldn't have minded so much if it, if it was attacks on the branch, you know, for theological issues. I don't mind criticism. Criticism is great. If you want to criticize me all day long and the branch and the message, that's fine. It's great. You know, let's have a discussion. Tell me what you're criticizing, we'll have a discussion. But when things get, uh, personal and they, they start talking about your children and they start talking about your wife and they start talking about your family, uh, that's, that's a step too far. And, um, it just came to a head and, you know, we said no. So we've been off social media since then. Um, we, we, we are going to be looking at getting back onto social media in the near future because, as you just said, we've got, we've got projects lined up in the near future that we want people to know about. But, but not only that, we, you know, I want to get back into the space where I can give lessons again, I can start taking questions from people and, and talking to people. The, the only positive thing about not being on social media as much is that, um, obviously all that, all that hatred has gone away and, and it is hatred, by the way. All that's gone because you're no longer there. The other thing, the other, the uplifting thing is, however, we still have people engaging with us and emailing us and we still have people buying the scriptures. So that hasn't gone anywhere, which is really great. However, you know, as well as I do that, you know, we run an organization that depends on on talking to people and, and sharing our message. Um, so we will get back into getting onto social media sometime this year. We don't know when yet. We need to sit down as a family and discuss when it's appropriate to do so. You know, you, I come from a family, I've got two autistic children and when they hear and see these things, it, you know, it's hurtful and, uh, you have, we've got to get to a space where everyone feels comfortable about it because my family are all involved in the branch. My children are involved in the branch, my wife's involved in the branch, my eldest son's involved in the branch, my dad's involved in the branch. So, it's a really big family thing. Uh, and if some part of your family is uncomfortable with what's happening in the space, got to take a step back, which is what we did. So, um, the positive is we're going to get back on at some point this year and we're going to start doing lessons and take questions again and being out there. But, um, I just want to, by the way, before if Levi is time, just thank everybody for their support over this period. Um, it was, it was lovely to see how many people came out and and gave us messages of support. And it was really nice to see that they were concerned about the kids. Um, which was the biggest issue for me. Um, so that was, that was really nice. And I have a lot of friends in the restoration space, a lot of friends. So it's been great to keep in contact with them. So it's all, it's all good, Steve. We're all, we're all still here and we're all happy.
>> Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I did tape an interview with Colobby Reddish yesterday for his program and I told him, I said, you know, we, I'm pretty sure I said this online. I think I said it, but either way, what I wanted to point out was that actually, >> for the most part, most of the people in this space are good people.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> They're wonderful. And whether it's in the EXMO community or if it's in the TBM community or if it's in the restoration community in general, you, 90% of the experiences are positive. Um, but it's, there are some sickos in this space and I think that some of the people, I think we talked on the phone about it when everything was happening that apparently some, maybe some of the same people that were going after me were also going after you. Um, so, you know, I, I appreciate what you had to do to protect your family. Um, and it, it's, and it's in light of the whole Charlie Kirk thing that happened. We just need to be cautious because of the, the crazies that are out there. And not only the Charlie Kirk, but then also the massacre that happened in Michigan a few weeks later, which was most likely very could have been retaliation. Um, we, so now that violence has entered this space, I think almost all of us who have a platform are very cognizant of being careful what we say or how I tell people, it's not so much about what you say, it's how you say it.
>> Um, and, and, and try to be civil. So when we do have disagreements, we don't use violent language. We can disagree, but once you, and once you start using violent language, it could compel people to violence.
>> Um, and so, and I've gotten it from all different, and it's not just one camp, you know, there's many camps that have gone after me, but I always say have to remind myself, you know, even when it comes to the comments, even on Reddit or Facebook or YouTube, you, you always feel bad. You feel terrible about those awful comments, but you remember, I have to remind myself, but yeah, 90% of the comments are positive. And >> 95% of my videos get thumbs up as opposed to thumbs down. So, that's really what we have to really focus on is that actually most people in this space are good people and, and there are some really bad rotten tomatoes in here. And, but, but we also have to take necessary steps to protect ourselves and, and, and I'm glad that you felt you needed to do that. And Matthew, I, I just want to let you know once you guys decide to start getting back out there, you're welcome to come back on the program to talk about anything you want. It's, uh, it's an open invitation to come on anytime you want. Matthew, um, was there anything else or did you want to bring Levi on now?
>> Uh, no, I think we can bring Levi on. Um, I think I've done, I think I said everything I need to say. So, um, I'll bring him on. I'll let him, >> I'll scoot over and let you see.
>> Okay, great. This is awesome. Great. All right. So now we have what? You're the second counselor. Is that?
correct? >> Uh third. Third. My my granddad is second. >> Okay. Okay. Got it. So you are part of the first presidency uh of your church. And what I want to do folks is before we actually do the share screen >> for Levi, I actually did want to share real quick your website. Might as well get that out there too. So this is the restored branch of Jesus Christ and you can go to restored branch.com and to get more information on this church and that's what they renamed themselves to uh the restored branch of Jesus Christ. Fortunately they let you use the term Jesus Christ that wasn't taken away from you.
So, um, so, as you all know, we've had, uh, Matthew on numerous times to talk about the scriptures of the unique scriptures of this, uh, branch of the restoration. And it's an exciting project that I know Levi has really, really gotten involved in for quite a while now, and he's been really anxious to want to share their project because what they're doing is they're actually creating some uh, an illustrated version. and and actually uh Levi, why don't you explain what kind of project this is and then share some of those images with us.
>> Yeah. So, obviously we've been around for 20 this year, 20 years now. And over that period, we've had a bunch of artwork done from various different artists and different styles. And we wanted to collect all this this art into one singular volume of a book. So, it's not like an illustrated version of the the Chronicles. It's just collecting all the art pieces and talking about them and all that. So, over the past year, we've been working with a new artist. That's why it's kind of taking a bit longer for it to come out. Um, and we've got one piece left really.
>> We've got one piece there. >> Yeah. >> And then obviously we're still working on it, still compiling it. Um, but we're hoping to have it out by the end of the year, but it's not a strict deadline. If it goes past that, then we're cool with that. And what's going to what's do you have you come up with the name for the book?
>> Uh yeah, originally it was just going to be the art of the Chronicles of the Children of Arin, but we thought it's a bit it's not like us. It's a bit generic. We wanted to spice up a bit. So we've we've come up with uh the visual history of the Chronicles of the Children of Aron.
>> Okay. Wow. This is great. So well, let's it's the visual history. So why don't we pull up the visuals and kind of preview to our audience. I got this. I had the privilege of seeing one. And of course, you've had some awesome artwork that's been inspired by your scriptures that we've uh featured on this program in the past. And I've always been I've always had a thing for artwork. Uh it was those Arnold Fryberg paintings, folks, that got me uh sucked into this in the first place that were in the Book of Mormon. And Wow, this is Okay, so tell Okay, tell tell me a little bit about this image.
>> Uh so, first of all, this is by the artist we've been working with over the past year called Sergio Wikas, who's excellent. It's nothing like we've had done before. But this piece is is called the battle of Podia which is kind of the the the big battle at the end of the second great war which happens in the book of Jarn and on the right is the character of Fedimid. He's like a Native American and on the left is Actar who's the general of like the forces of of evil. Um and yeah this the scene takes place in like a wooden bridge. It's all crooked and it's falling apart. And obviously in the background you can kind of make out silhouettes of of the rest of the armies fighting and stuff. But this was always a a scene that we wanted to have done. Um but we would work with Sergeion on a cool piece before this and we're like, "Yeah, let's take a shot. Let's try and get this one done." As it's always been visually striking in the book and obviously it's it's great having it to look at as well.
>> Oh wow. Yeah, that is a very stunning image. Uh, and just folks, just so you understand too, if you're unfamiliar with the scriptures of this group, uh, it's the Chronicles of the Children of Arch. And really what it does, it details the history, it's the records that Matthew translated um in the original book, the book of Jiren, that tells uh, of this group of people that fled from the Tower of Babel. And they were actually related to actually part of the Geredite group. And they split off from the Geredites and made their way across the English Channel. and they were the the civilization um that that these scriptures claim that built Stonehenge. So that's that's kind of like the synopsis and then the collapse of the civilization. So it does have some parallels to the Book of Mormon as well, including Book of Mormon. Uh there are actually uh Book of Mormon peoples that do make their way into the story as well. Uh Matthew, do you have any more images you want to share?
>> Yeah, you spoke about Stonehenge and our other piece we wanted to show today. I can might have to stop sharing and open it again.
>> It is this one which we've had recently done over the past month or so. Uh which is this one right here which is showcases Stonehenge what it would have probably looked like uh in the days of the book in its heyday. Um and we were blown away by this one. This is one I wanted to have done for a long time. Um, there's another piece in the book that I'll paint. It shows the inside of what it could have looked like. Um, we want to save that for the book. We don't want to kind of let that slip right now.
>> Okay, that's great. So, what you're doing here, so basically this is the peak, if you will, of the civilization that's being depicted here. And so, what you see now, this is kind of unique, folks, because a lot of people don't imagine Stonehenge had a roof, but this is one of kind of one of the claims that is being made here that this was actually a temple. um and it was enclosed and this is what it would have looked like during this period of time um when this civilization was was was at its narr. Um can you want to tell me a little bit more about what's happening in this painting?
>> Um yeah the you know when people think Stonehenge has a roof they might get the wrong impression of what the roof looked like. Um, but we we have a book here at a house by uh by Sarah Eubank called the Stonehenge Temple Cipher Roof. And uh it's an excellent excellent book that goes into extreme detail of what Stonehenge could have looked like back in the day. And we gave Sergio I Sergio already knew about it, but we kind of gave a bit more insight to say this is what we want it to be based off of. Um so people can go and have a look at that. And it's pretty much exactly what you'd find in the book, isn't it?
>> Yeah. the the the um the S the Sarah Eubank book. >> Yeah. >> Um um Stonehenge Temple cipher. Yeah. >> Um had a lot of interesting uh points in it that that correlated to the chronicles to the book of Jiren. >> And uh as we knew that the temple had a roof, we didn't know what the roof might have looked like. And she gives an a wonderful uh I would just say debrief about what the what the roof might have looked like. So we incorporated some of that into into our description to Sergio. The other thing I like about this picture, sorry, >> is the the avenue that you see going to the temple with the the lined with the standing stones. Um you can still see that avenue today by the way if you take an aerial view of the Stonehenge landscape. But yeah, so anyway, sorry. No, that's fine. Bye bye me.
>> Well, this is interesting. any more images or did you want to just exit out because I have a couple more follow-up questions.
>> Um, that's all we want to show because I want to leave the rest okay for the book.
>> So, why don't you exit out real quick, Levi, and then I just want to wrap this up. But first of all, thank you so much for sharing with my audience exclusively these stunning images that we are going to be uh having you guys come back on later this year. hopefully, fingers crossed, that you'll have the the publication out and then people can order this uh stunning visual history of the uh of your scriptures, which I think, you know, I think it's so important I I uh to realize the importance that religion, the influence it has on artwork. And so whenever I see artwork that's being inspired by scriptures, I always find it I I love it. I I it's telling a story. And then even just how the artist is interpreting the story and all these kind of things that's that's going on. I I know your previous artist, it almost like there was like a token uh influence I felt on on on on the art artistic imagery. Don't see it as much in the in these paintings, but again, it's cool to have a different artist in there that that that's kind of has their take on it, too. Um I I'm excited about this and and Levi, I just want to ask if you had any final words before we wrap this up.
>> Well, we want to make want to make one thing clear that when we do go to print is going to be a limited run. Um, we want to make this like a really special thing. So, we won't be publishing as many pieces. So, it'll be kind of first come first serve as to who's going to get them. Um, there's always obviously the option to either reprint later down the line or I think we've talked about PDF at some point, but we don't know when that's going to be. We'll get the limited run out first and and then go from there.
>> Okay. Okay. So, basically, this will be a collector's item even when it comes out, >> right? Yeah. >> Okay. And Matthew, I just had one quick question for you if you want to get on screen for a second here. I I I want to see your blue bracelet you're wearing.
>> Oh, yes. >> So, I need to ask you what's what is that? Is that the Adamic language I'm looking at or >> Oh, no. I wish I wish. No, this is um my my my my youngest son, Leaf, um is really into his scriptures and he wanted something for everybody to uh remember to read their scriptures every day. These are called yappy bracelets, I believe, and they you put your phone next to it and you get a Bible verse every day.
>> So, uh obviously he I don't know if you'll do it on there. Probably not. >> Yeah. Um he he's obviously wanted everybody to have the Bible with them all the time. And as we can't carry around, we can carry a bracelet. So whenever we want to read a Bible verse, we click that and we read a Bible vers. Leaf wears his, I wear mine, my dad wears his, you know. So yeah.
>> Oh, that is so cool. >> Well, maybe one day people can access your scriptures as well. >> That would be lovely. Yeah. >> When I saw that, I thought, "Oh, that looks like the Adamic language to me." Of course, folks, as you know, the Adamic language is the language that uh Matthew was translating um when he had the privilege to translate those plates. And so, uh it's very exciting.
>> I'll say I'll I'll give you a surprise. I'll give you a surprise when when when um we come back on to talk about the book, right? Um I I'll give you some more of the adamic language if you would like. I have um I have a an entire verse that I've had for a long time, but I don't really like sharing it too much. But uh as as it's going to be a special occasion to give a limited edition run of the book, I will share that with everybody.
>> Wow. Okay. Well, hey, I mean this is great. I love it. I love it. We get we get to do we get to break these stories. So, I just want to thank both of you for coming on. Matthew, first of all, thank you for telling us this important story of the restoration that it's not really been in told in detail. It's interesting to see the parallels that what happened to you uh that is happening to John Delin. And uh so I think it's now that we've got this story documented, people have some more data to work with. And Levi, I just want to I think it's really cool. It's a passion project you got going here. I'm looking forward to you coming back on to share this stunning visual history of your scriptures. Uh thanks, Levi, for coming on.
>> Oh, it's it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to coming back later in the year.
>> Wonderful. Folks, we're going to have links in the description to the website of the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ as well as a few other uh resources that Matthew sent me. We will have those in those in the description. We also will have links in the description for those of you who'd like to financially support the channel. We do appreciate the donations. And remember, the most important thing is this. All the voices of the restoration will be heard here on Mormon Book Reviews.