Transcription
George, let me begin by thanking you very much for agreeing to speak to the students uh on the course of US China relations past, present and future. Uh I have no doubt that your insights will add a lot uh to the cause. So what we'll do in today's discussion is discuss the lessons that the students studied in week one uh especially about the historical dimensions of the US China relationship and I'm going to begin by asking you some questions about the century of humiliation uh that China suffered because I believe it had some impact on Chinese attitudes uh to the world. So let me begin by noting that at the end of the 18th century, China had enjoyed decades of peace and stability under the Chenlong Emperor 1735 to 1796. He stepped down in 1796. In less than 50 years, China was humiliated. So the question in my mind is have the Chinese historians analyzed what happened? What reasons do they give for the dramatic weakening of China relative to the west? And why did China fall behind? So what's what's your views on that?
>> The story of the decline of the Qing dynasty is as as complex as multifaceted as what Gibbons wrote about the decline and fall of Rome.
>> Uh it's a long story and interestingly that history that official history is just now being compiled in China.
>> Just now.
>> China has a tradition of writing official histories.
>> Yes.
>> There have been 24. The last being the history of the Ming dynasty.
>> The history of the Qing from 1640 to 1911 is just now being written. The project I think was launched year 203 or something. I remember former vice premier Leilaning telling us about it. It has got more material than all the previous dynasties combined.
>> Mhm.
>> And initially they talked about 99 volumes.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Last I heard there would be at least 250 volumes and the more they go into it the bigger the story.
>> The history of humiliation in the 19th century.
>> Yes.
>> Of course has its origins before that.
>> Mhm.
>> Long de facto Ching Long reigned longer than his grandfather Kangi but out of deference to the Kangi Emperor he stepped down and handed power over to the Taing Emperor. But he continued to wield power behind the scene for many more years.
>> Mhm.
>> But by that time the Qing dynasty was very corrupt.
>> Mhm.
>> And when you're corrupt the rot is within.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And then when foreign challenges come, you can't cope.
>> Mhm.
>> And really while we talk about foreign impinchment in China, not just western but also the Russian from the north.
>> Yes.
>> And then later Japan.
>> Yes.
>> Through Korea. Um China went through a a period of terrible internal discord. I mean the typing rebellion, the Muslim rebellion in the west, those took a horren horrendous number of Chinese lives. Tens of millions died in those terrible civil wars and it was because China was internally weak that it it succumbed to external challenges and this is increasingly how they see themselves now.
>> Mhm.
>> I'm told that if you go to the to the Russian Chinese border, uh the museum to the Treaty of Agon, which saw all that land north of the Amu and east of the Usuri been handed over to Zaris, Russia, he ended by saying when you are weak, things happen.
>> Mhm.
>> And indeed, if you look at the opioid crisis in China, yes, the British sold the opium and it was despicable.
>> Uh, but why were they so receptive to opium?
>> Mhm.
>> I mean, it's like today in America, I mean, you can blame the Mexicans and the Colombians for for for drugs, but why is there such a huge market?
>> So, the reflection about the 19th century, the humiliation will be completely incomplete without a deep understanding of the internal rot in China which began during the Chenong period.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned uh Japan because uh you know I've you know Ezra Vogle is a friend of ours the Harvard scholar he has said that for centuries China with his great civilization and navies always had the upper hand v Japan. What's interesting is that when Japan woke up to the western challenge in the major restoration and reformed itself and became stronger, China didn't seem to pay attention to what Japan was doing and then of course was humiliated by Japan in the 1895 SinoJapanese war. Looking back at that time, why didn't you think that Chinese paid any attention to what like someone like Japan when Japan was transforming itself? Did the Chinese say, "Hey, we should also transform ourselves." Was that was that kind of movement budding in China in the 19th century?
>> Um before that period uh back to the midst of time uh Japan did not play a major role.
>> Mhm.
>> In the evolution of Chinese history and civilization.
>> Much less than Korea did.
>> Mhm.
>> Um so it's it's perhaps not surprising that China never saw Japan as being particularly consequential. uh if there were descriptions about Japan, it was that uh it's an they an unusually clean people which was something mentioned in the in the the history of the northern way.
>> Yeah.
>> This that's this like fourth century fifth century um or maybe before that maybe third century I'm not not so sure of my dates now.
>> Then the Japanese were were raided the China coast.
>> Yeah.
>> And they were fearsome Japanese pirates.
>> Of course.
>> Kulai Khan tried to invade Japan but got defeated by typhoons and that's how the kami kazi became such an important term in in the Japanese psyche.
>> But then Kubla moved in all directions including Java and Indochina and so on.
>> But I would say in Chinese history, Japan wasn't that important and Japan went in. But the way Japan saw China and the importance of his decline now that is an important part of the story, they could see the western powers moving in.
>> Mhm.
>> And that that would eventually be their fate.
>> Mhm.
>> So we all know about how Commodore Perry forced Japan open.
>> The US was at at that time full of its sense of manifest destiny.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh I think it was 1854 they were shocked guns open up Japan.
>> Mhm.
>> So from 1854 to 1868 the major restoration which you talked about they were determined not to suffer China's fate.
>> Mhm.
>> By 186061 any Japanese ship landing on the China coast will be inspected by a western custom officer.
>> M.
>> Usually British.
>> Mhm.
>> Who collect the revenues, took what they felt were their share and the rest they gave to the Qing administration.
>> Mhm.
>> So they they saw all that and they knew it would come to them unless they transformed themselves top to bottom and unless they themselves became a colonizing power and they could see their greatest fear was the Russians coming down.
>> Mhm.
>> The Zars have been moving towards the Pacific. The Qing prevented it. Nurturings. In the end, Zaris Russia took advantage of uh the Opium War of the Taiping Rebellion and took away or easily more than a million square kilometers.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh to the north.
>> Yeah.
>> Around the north, the east and in the Balo the Edi region in the west. Um and then they were coming down to build the South Manurion railway and they were pressing towards the Laung Peninsula to the poor high G and for the Japanese they've always described Korea as a dagger pointing at them.
>> Mhm.
>> So not surprisingly the Korean peninsula became an important uh area of contention.
>> Mhm.
>> Korea, of course, under the last dynasty, the Lee had bowed to China as a tributary state. They were very conservative uh country because when the Ming fell, they quickly switched allegiance to the king. Yeah.
>> And so the Lee dynasty reigned for half a millennium and that created an exceptionally conservative confusionist culture.
>> Then the Russians moving down and everybody could see that the Qing was in decline. The Japanese decided that they too had to move. But their move was very different from that of the western powers because they were part of the region.
>> Mhm.
>> They receive enormous influence from China. Much of the high culture came from from from China. Even the way they describe the emperor as tenang deno changing it from bicado the old name was because of China during the tongue dynasty and it's not much written about but they studied the thing how the manchus who were much smaller in numbers than they themselves could in the end create the biggest empire China ever had. So they studied Kangi in great detail and when they move into China, I think the ambition was eventually to establish a new dynasty.
>> Yeah.
>> But of course the Americans prevented it. And even within China itself there was resistance. They they were bogged down. They lost large number of soldiers. Much of their losses were incurred in China, not in the Pacific.
>> The long story.
>> Yeah. No, no, you're absolutely right. It's it's it's it's it's the there's so many forces and it's very complex. Uh and you're right that the Chinese are just beginning to try to understand what went wrong with the Qing dynasty. But you know as as as the Chinese look back on that century and and and they try you know from time to time I see in Chinese speeches they refer to you know like even Chiinping has said you know the return of Hong Kong marked the end of 100 years of shame. So in this what what Shinping calls the 100 years of shame. What what are the events that the Chinese look back they see as among the most painful events in that century? What really hurt them the most?
>> Well, the opium war is not transmitted through mother's milk.
>> Yeah.
>> It was certainly transmitted through my mother to me.
>> She told you about the opium war.
>> Oh, I think all Chinese know about the opium war and it was a period of national humiliation.
>> Mhm.
>> But what was uh particularly gling was what happened in Versailles because China had sent um I think 150,000 Chinese citizens to help uh the Europeans, the the Allied powers.
>> Yes.
>> In the effort against Germany with the promise that once the war ended and Germany was defeated, Yeah.
>> German possessions in China will revert back to China.
>> Mhm.
>> So at SI the Japanese said, "No, we won those territories." And they agreed.
>> M.
>> So China was badly dealt and water reminded us that at Versail the Japanese asked for a clause affirming racial equality. The Americans opposed it.
>> Yes.
>> And why did they oppose it? Because racial superiority was an important justification for many of the things that they did in the entire world. Yeah.
>> So when that happened, it accelerated deepened a movement which had already started in the last days of the ting which is Chinese rejuvenation and it gave a strong impetus to the new cultural movement which started before that and in the end created the communist party the May fourth movement.
>> What about the sacking of the summer palace in 1860? How was that? What kind of impact did that have on the Chinese?
>> Oh, second of the summer palace um is is part of the opium war because even after the first opium war and the the s the Hong Kong being seeded to the British, China still put roadblocks. They could see how opium was destroying their own people.
>> Mhm.
>> But the British and the others were pushing for uh uh China to allow opium in freely. And u after one action against the merchants, I cannot remember which uh British merchant it was. I think it was Sassoon appealed to Palmerston, the the British prime minister who said, "We will teach the Chinese a lesson they'll never forget." And they haven't forgotten.
>> And the sacking of the summer palace.
>> Yes.
>> Was uh was brutal, right?
>> No, it was a demonstration.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Don't ever do it again. And prevent us from selling opium.
>> Mhm.
>> So it is in connection with the opium humiliation.
>> Mhm.
>> That the summer palace is now viewed.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, this brings me to the question as you know this course is about uh US China relations. And the interesting question is how the Chinese historians view the role of the US uh in this century because until the boxer rebellion in 1899 to 1901 I think the American troops didn't fight in China before that and in fact the US but at the same time US insisted on most favored nation treatment and joined the settlements in Shanghai after they were established and the but the US also donated some of the reparations received from the boxer rebellion to funding scholars in China to be educated by American uh universities also. I think this also led to the founding of the Chinua University if I if I remember correctly. So how do the
>> Many hospitals and education establishments were established by Americans.
>> How do the Chinese view the American role in this century of immigration?
>> Well, Japan did not I'm sorry, the US did not see itself as a European uh colonial imperialistic power. It saw itself as um in terms of its manifest destiny as a superior power which had a civilizing mission. Uh so of course when the European powers took advantages for themselves they demanded their share and don't forget in 1854 Commodore Perry forced open Japan.
>> Mhm.
>> They would have done the same to China. But since the Europeans had already opened all the gates there was no need for them to move. So in a sense they were free riders. They were they were free riders. That's how MFN the term became in popular use.
>> Yes.
>> That there's no need for us to fight the same battles to get the same advantages.
>> Yes.
>> You just agreed to give it to all the rest of us.
>> Mhm.
>> Most favored nation which is a strange term not easily selfexplanatory but that's that's when it gained currency.
>> China.
>> Uh then they saw the powers in contention.
>> Mhm.
>> And the Roosevelt received a Nobel Peace Prize in 1906.
>> Yes.
>> And I always remember in the empty room before we entered the Oval Office out there.
>> Yes.
>> The the certificate with the medal of the Nobel Prize being given to Theod Roosevelt.
>> Yes.
>> It was the settlement between Russia and Japan.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Russia and Japan fought a very bloody war. Russian fleet was sunk in 1905.
>> That's right.
>> Which led in the end to the to to the Borchovic revolution. Um and on Laong Peninsula so many graves the Russians and Japanese who fought there. The Americans decided better to have peace and a balance. It was not in American interest to have the Zahar come down Manuria into Korea.
>> M.
>> It was not in the interest of the US to have the Japanese moving deeply into China either.
>> Mhm.
>> So it was in the interest to have a balance.
>> Mhm.
>> But that balance did not last very long.
>> Yeah.
>> Because when the Japanese move into mainland China, then it was the Americans who forced the Japanese to into the Second World War by the embargo.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyway, I think if I'm not mistaken, Maoong uh sort of anticipated in one of his early writings is that the time will come when China and America will fight Japan. He said in one of his and I cited in one of my lessons.
>> Yeah.
>> But so overall before closing uh if you just had to sort of summarize the attitudes of uh China towards Americans at the uh the early part of this century. How would you characterize it? Early part of the 20th century.
>> So the Americans were the least predatory of the western powers and because they had a guilty conscience and donated some of the indemnities back to establish educational and uh health institutions. The Chinese have a different view of them. So till today St. John's University for for example is spoke of in warm terms. I think it's been absorbed in the futa I can't remember now. Um and you had a group of u Americans like Henry Loose. They many of them were associated with missionary families. They they have good intentions for China. They want China to be Christianized to be like like America. And when Japan invaded China 1937 before first world war the Americans helped China. So the flying tigers, you have the supply lines being open, all kinds of things being done to help China fight Japan. And if you go to Tongqing today or the Kuning, many of the American establishments during that period are preserved as museums in order that that period not be forgotten. So Metum had a very tentative view of the Americans. He had a bad experience with I think Ambassador Patrick Hurley. M he wrote a piece about farewell ambassador or something which is quite famous. Um then they succeeded in 49 and the Americans would have allowed China to capture Taiwan but then the Korean war superven which was really something instigated by Stalin.
>> So this actually is a good moment to pause because we are now going to proceed to the Korean War. uh in week two uh of this course. I want to thank you very much uh for your reflections. Uh they've added a lot for the students who've been studying this period and I look forward to our next conversation when we discuss the uh what happened between China and the US in the second half of the 20th century. Thank you very much George.
>> My pleasure.