Transcription
This is a deposition of Mr. Leslie H. Wexner, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
"Oh yeah, he's a crook. I know. He would make Bernie Madoff look like a boy scout. I mean, diabolical isn't a big enough word."
"The rumor and innuendo that goes around me makes me very mad, 'cause I think I'm a very straight arrow and a very responsible person."
Les Wexner, the business guru, the retail store icon who once described Jeffrey Epstein as a "most loyal friend," faced off against US House members for hours this week. In an unprecedented deposition, he shared details about how he met the man, the man that he claims would go on to steal millions of dollars from him, and how he responded to accusations that maybe he knew more about what Epstein was apparently up to. And we have all of the video of his deposition, and it says a lot.
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If you visited a mall anytime in the last couple of decades, you will likely have interacted with at least one brand that was owned or influenced by Leslie Herbert Wexner. Les Wexner, an Ohio businessman who has made millions and millions of dollars on brands like Victoria's Secret and Express and Bath & Body Works. But for years, his reputation has been marred by his apparent close personal and professional relationships with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. And as the Department of Justice released millions of files related to Epstein, this is pursuant to the Epstein Files Transparency Act, Wexner's name has popped up again and again and again and again.
Now, to be clear, Wexner has previously denied knowing that Epstein was involved in any sort of illegal conduct. I mean, aside from allegedly stealing money from him, but I'm talking more specifically about sex trafficking and prostitution of minors. And he insists that he cut ties with him back in 2007, before Epstein was convicted of soliciting an underage girl for sex in Florida. And remember, he entered into that plea deal.
See, the issue with that is it came out that June 26, 2008, that Wexner had apparently sent Epstein, uh, an email. This is after a plea deal was announced, and Wexner apparently wrote to Epstein, "Abigail told me the result. All I can say is, I feel sorry. You violated your own number one rule. Always be careful." And then Epstein replied, "No excuse."
Now, Epstein was arrested and charged federally a decade later. Died in a New York City jail while awaiting trial on federal sex trafficking of minors charges. This was back in 2019. But Epstein, this alleged genius with money, controlled Wexner's considerable assets for years as his financial adviser. He was even granted power of attorney in the early '90s. So, essentially allowed to make all sorts of decisions involving Wexner, his family, his properties, his money.
Now, Wexner has claimed, "I'm the victim," claimed that Epstein expertly conned him out of millions of dollars, and that's allegedly how he acquired much of his wealth. And more information that was released in the file show, or seemingly show, that Epstein agreed to pay the Wexner family $100 million to resolve this issue. A police report was never filed because Wexner seemingly didn't want people to know that he'd been the victim of such a massive theft.
And by the way, Wexner released a three-page statement ahead of his deposition saying he was pleased to testify and, quote, "I was never a participant nor co-conspirator in any of Epstein's illegal activities. To my enormous embarrassment and regret, I, like many others, was duped by a world-class con man. I cannot undo that part of my personal history, even as I regret ever having met him."
And Wexner also insisted in the statement that he had never been unfaithful to his wife Abigail in any way, shape, or form. He says she was the one who uncovered that Epstein had been essentially robbing them blind. Quote, "In September 2007, nine months before he plead guilty in Florida, we revoked Epstein's power of attorney, removed his access to our bank accounts, and forced him to resign from all our affiliated entities, confronted with his financial wrongdoing by Abigail."
"Epstein agreed to and did return a substantial amount of money, even while continuing to maintain his total innocence of any wrongdoing, never dropping the con. In light of his eventual guilty plea and deception of our family, we completely severed our relationship with Epstein. Epstein was permanently and irrevocably out of my life. Again, but I mentioned the 2008 email, or the parent email. While others visited Epstein in jail and associated with him after his release, I did not. Nor did I witness, condone, or enable his crimes in any way."
Okay, but here's the thing. The US House Oversight Committee wanted more details about just how close Wexner and Epstein were, and what sort of sorted and nefarious activity Wexner might have witnessed, known about, allegedly even participated in. And that's the key, whether he funded Epstein's activities. And the key here, either knowingly or unknowingly, which as we go through this, you'll make your own opinions.
There was a recently released FBI email that shows Wexner and others were labeled at one point, or considered at one point, as secondary co-conspirators. However, not only has Wexner never faced any sort of criminal charges connected to that, there is a part, there's a memo where it indicates that there was limited evidence regarding his involvement.
Okay. Now, getting to the answers to these burning questions, it wasn't quite as simple as the committee members maybe might have hoped, because Wexner, now 88 years old, was reportedly too frail to travel from Ohio to Washington D.C. to respond to the subpoena. So, D.C. came to him at his home in New Albany. You don't see that a lot.
The committee released the video deposition in its entirety. And in it, you can see Wexner laughing and joking, seemingly undeterred by the massive implications of his Epstein connections, although could have been nervous. Very hard to judge. But here's what I'll say. We have a lot of information to go over in this episode. The deposition itself lasted hours, and there were a few breaks that were sprinkled in, and we can't get into all of it, but I do want to highlight some particularly interesting details, including Epstein's seemingly unhealthy interest in Victoria's Secret and its young models. Whether Wexner actually ever considered Epstein a friend. A wild moment when it seems his own lawyer, Wexner's own lawyer, threatened to kill him. Plus, by the way, what the members of Congress had to say about what they heard during the deposition.
"We should be very clear that there would be no Epstein Island. There'd be no Epstein plane. There'd be no money to traffic women and girls. Mr. Epstein would not be the wealthy man he was without the support of Les Wexner."
So, after going over the rules and the expectations of the deposition and having Wexner swear an oath to tell the truth, the committee members that were present, they started off by asking Wexner about his early life and his career. And then the questioning turned to his relationship with his financial adviser, who he says he first met through friends in the mid-1980s.
"How did you first come to meet Mr. Epstein?"
"It was really by accident. Uh, I was friends with with a a couple, Bob and Wendy Meister, and uh, I was in Florida and I had never been to Florida. So, they were driving me around, showing me what South Florida looked like and past, uh, and they showed me the Breakers Hotel, and they were just driving around the driveway, and they, Bob stopped the car and he said, 'There's somebody you should meet, a really smart, savvy guy named Jeffrey Epstein.'"
"And so they stopped the car. I was sitting in the back seat, and they introduced me to Jeffrey, and we drove off. That was about it."
"So, at that time, you had no knowledge of Mr. Epstein until Mr. Meister introduced you to him?"
"Never heard of him, never saw him, never met him."
"Did Mr. Meister ever raise any concerns about Mr. Epstein?"
"No. Um, he didn't."
And during parts of the deposition, the Congress members, the congressional members, read excerpts from various articles that were written about Epstein or Wexner over the years, asking him to confirm or deny certain information, including a piece from the 1990s in Vanity Fair.
"For the record, it reads, 'Soon after introducing Wexner and Epstein, Meister started hearing disturbing stories about Epstein's sexual proclivities. Think of whatever the worst thing anyone could do, and Epstein did them all,' Meister said. Did Meister ever express concerns related to Mr. Epstein's sexual proclivities?"
"Never. Objection. Double hearsay. He answered, 'Never.'"
"The very next sentence continues, 'Mr. Epstein showed up unannounced at Meister's Park Avenue apartment with five models for Meister's sexual entertainment. Epstein thought he was bringing me a gift, according to Mr. Meister.' Were you aware of this occurring?"
"Objection. Double hearsay."
"No."
"Did Mr. Epstein ever present you with women for your sexual entertainment?"
"Absolutely not."
"Mr. Wexner, the committee is investigating the circumstances surrounding Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell and the trafficking of young women, trafficking and sexual abuse of young women or girls. Did Ms. Maxwell ever introduce you to any young woman or girl?"
"No. I don't think she ever introduced me to any female or man."
"Did Ms. Maxwell ever ask you to introduce a young woman or girl to your friends or associates?"
"No."
"Did you ever introduce any young woman or girl that you met through Ms. Maxwell to any of your friends or associates?"
"Objection. Assumes fact not in evidence."
"You're kind. Let's just answer the question."
"That's fine."
"Repeat the question."
"I think the answer is no. But..."
"Did you ever introduce any woman or girl that you met through Ms. Maxwell to any of your friends or associates?"
"No. Never."
"When you were interacting with Mr. Epstein, did you enjoy spending time with him?"
"Enjoyment was fun? No, it was work."
"Can you elaborate on that? What were the nature of your interactions with Mr. Epstein?"
"Like professional, you know, this is what's going on. Have you paid this bill? Do you know about that? Or, you know, I took an inventory of your house and no one ever taken an inventory of your furniture. Do you know how much furniture you have? And it was like, no, I never thought about it. Well, I know you should know that I have an inventory. Things are buttoned up. Um, it, it was like what an off, um, I don't think how can I explain it? Uh, it's like people talk about family offices, and I'd manage all my stuff or my admin paid my bills because I was so busy and and I realized it was a complexity of my personal life, and somebody had to just do this stuff 'cause it wasn't getting done properly. And so it was like, um, you know, professional, I guess what a fiduciary would do, um, more than what just your accountant would do or your lawyer would do, and something was I thought was unfair for my secretary to do."
"And you testified that you had, at times, he would call you three times a day. Is that a fair characterization of your testimony?"
"No, what I'm saying is that he would call me three times maybe in an hour. He wanted to tell me something about what he was doing or would ask me a question about taxes so I could understand, he could understand what he was preparing. And but he might not call me for three months, maybe six months. I wouldn't pay attention. I, it wasn't important at the time."
"Mr. Wexner, is it your testimony today that your conversations with Mr. Epstein were predominantly focused on your business relationship with him?"
"That'd be very accurate. That would be very accurate."
"What common interest did you share with Mr. Epstein outside of work?"
"None."
"So, you didn't have any personal relationship with Mr. Epstein whatsoever?"
"I, I don't think I ever went to lunch or dinner or a movie or had a a cup of coffee with Jeffrey."
Now, interestingly, Wexner insisted throughout the deposition that not only were he and Epstein not close friends, they weren't friends at all.
"Did you at any time ever consider him to be a close friend?"
"No."
"It's been reported repeatedly that you were close friends with Mr. Epstein. Why do you think people would come to that conclusion?"
"Objection, hearsay."
"Speculation. Because he would tell them that. But he told me he was friends. If you told me that you were friends with Bill Clinton, I would believe it. Or if anybody told me somebody was a friend, I would believe it. So I, I think the perspective that I have now, and I think what's really important for this group to understand is, as I look back at it, I was conned by the world's Olympic all-time con artist. And when you look at, I read in the news all the people he knew, royalty, kings, princes, and all that. An incredible con artist."
At one point, it was brought up that there was a note from Wexner that was included in the new infamous Jeffrey Epstein birthday book, right, that Ghislaine Maxwell reportedly put together for Epstein for his birthday. It was filled with letters from old friends and acquaintances. Take a look.
"Did you yourself write this letter to Mr. Epstein?"
"Sadly, I did."
"Did Ms. Maxwell approach you to write this letter for Mr. Epstein's birthday?"
"I think the request was to write a card or a note or something for a birthday book."
"And did, did that come from Ms. Maxwell?"
"I don't remember."
"Mr. Wexner, would you please read the main body of the birthday note for the record, please?"
"I wanted to get you what you want. So, here it is. Happy birthday, your friend Leslie."
"And what was your understanding of what Mr. Epstein would want?"
"He, he was a bachelor, so he drew a pair of boobs."
"Um, you've..."
"As a kind of a joke and off-handedly, I'd say. Understand."
"Um, I hope you do. You've, uh, you said a few times throughout this deposition today that you did not consider Mr. Epstein a friend of yours. However, you signed this letter and I quote, 'Your friend Leslie.' Um, why would you sign 'Your friend Leslie' to someone you did not consider to be a friend of yours?"
"I don't know. I normally say 'Les,' not 'Leslie,' either, when I write notes. And, you know, I guess I, I can't explain why I would say 'your friend' because we weren't friends."
So, according to Wexner, his wife Abigail discovered that Epstein had been stealing from him around the same time that he was convicted of a sex crime in Florida.
"Mr. Epstein was convicted in 2008. Did you maintain any contact with Mr. Epstein after his plea deal?"
"As I recall, concurrently with Abigail taking over the finances, and my wife is an M&A lawyer. She worked for Davis Polk. She's really smart, and she took over the finances and, kind of concurrently, she was discovering that he had stole money from us and concurrently finding out about these accusations and the criminal activity that he pursued. And when we, when I, when we found out about it, we severed relationships with him immediately."
"Mr. Mr. Wexner, I, I appreciate the context, but when was the last time you were in contact with Mr. Epstein?"
"I have no rec, no, no recall."
"Did you have any contact with Mr. Epstein after 2008?"
"What happened in 2008?"
"Again."
"Mr. Epstein entered a plea deal related to the solicitation of minors or..."
"Oh, okay."
"Never, never talked to him, never saw him. As far as I was concerned, once we knew how bad he was, he was dead."
"Did you have any knowledge of illegal activity by Mr. Epstein prior to his arrest in 2006?"
"The only I recall is my chief of staff told me, uh, and I don't know if he knew from, whether it was the newspapers or radio or TV, that, um, that Jeffrey had been accused or a woman was suing him for, I don't know, being aggressive. And I, I remember calling him and saying, 'What the hell is this?' And he said, 'I was being shaken down by a hooker and I believed him.' And I think the follow-up to that conversation was, 'I hope you know you're not bullshitting me because if it is, you know, the party's over.' He said, 'Absolutely not. Do you think I'm stupid?' Which is probably what I would say to an attorney or say to you or anybody that I worked with. If you do something off, you're out."
"With the benefit of hindsight, were there any things you witnessed or observed about Mr. Epstein that could have suggested he was trafficking and sexually abusing women?"
"Absolutely not. I've asked myself that question over and over. Why I didn't see the, there should have been a clue or something that I should have picked up on. There's nothing that I can recall. Nothing. Not even a clue of a clue. And I, I think the reason in hindsight, and I think for the understanding to get to the bottom of what Jeffrey did, is to understand how great a con he was because that's the explanation I have to myself. How, how could I have never thought he was a thief? How could I never thought he was a pervert? You know, all the terrible things. Never clue."
And during the deposition, Wexner confirmed that he had originally owned Epstein's multi-story New York City townhouse and said that Epstein had purchased it for around $20 million. He also confirmed that he visited Epstein's house in Palm Beach, Florida, just to check it out, noting, by the way, that he wasn't very impressed by it.
"Did you ever visit his island in the U.S. Virgin Islands?"
"Yes."
"Can you tell us about those visits?"
"Yes. Jeffrey, um, invited us to see it and, uh, we were on a boat and we went to the island with our kids. So Abigail, myself, I can't remember how many kids we had, two or three or four, but at least two. Walked around for a while and left. Probably an hour visit."
"Okay. An hour. So, on that trip, do you recall seeing any prominent figures on the island?"
"No. And it was a pretty crummy island."
"Okay. Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico or his house in Paris?"
"Do you want to break those up for clarity?"
"Did you ever visit his ranch in New Mexico?"
"It was the same kind of thing. He wanted Abigail and I to see his ranch. We flew down there and drove around for an hour or two, got back on the plane and came home. And I don't think he had a house."
"So you would fly just to go visit for an hour?"
"Yeah, I, I would fly to Europe for an hour on business trips. I, as crazy as it is, I getting on the plane and going places for me was like going to the mailbox. Uh, and he didn't have a house on the ranch, and I never knew he had a house in Paris."
"Did you ever see any girls or women that looked unusually young?"
"No."
"Did you ever hear rumors of any girls or women who looked unusually young visiting Epstein?"
"No."
"We did. During any visits to Epstein's property, did you ever see photographs or other images of women or minors?"
"Not that I recall."
"Did you ever become aware of Epstein transporting women or minors using assets that you owned, whether that's a plane that you owned or a yacht that you owned?"
"Absolutely not. No."
Now, at some points during the deposition, Wexner seemed to be learning information for the first time, especially when it came to how much access Epstein had to his money and how much of it was moved around.
"Your attorneys, quote, explained that over his years handling Wexner's finances, Epstein stole or otherwise misappropriated several hundred million from Wexner. That misconduct, together with with the fees that Epstein paid himself for his services to Wexner, appears to account for virtually all of Epstein's wealth. So, so several hundred million is a large but not precise figure. To the best of your knowledge, how much exactly did Epstein steal?"
"I don't know. I don't think I'll ever know. One of, I'd like to try to understand a little bit better how Epstein was able to steal or misappropriate that many, uh, funds. One way, reportedly, is that the trusts that we described earlier, which I know you said you have no recollection of, I just want to be thorough. The trusts that he was trustee of would receive gifts of limited stock, and he would then sell that stock on the New York Stock Exchange and then use a portion of those proceeds for his own personal purposes. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of what I just described?"
"I'm effing surprised. I'm shocked. I didn't know this."
"Is it that you have not previously heard what I just described?"
"I, I, I never heard of it. Never saw this document."
"And it was publicly reported, I think, by ABC several years ago, but not ever on your radar?"
"Never."
"Okay. Uh, the report indicates that it was more than or around $1.3 billion of stock that Epstein moved around that way. Not that he kept all of that money for himself, but the total amount of stock sales was over a billion dollars. You have no knowledge or awareness of that?"
"I, I don't know the amounts. The only trust that I'm aware of is my wife set up trusts for our kids, you know. So, wherever she set them up, in the amounts, I have no idea what's in them then or now. And then separately, it's been reported that around $20 million of stock and cash were contributed by two of your charitable foundations to one of Epstein's charities. Do you have any knowledge or awareness of that?"
"Effing shocked. I, I just, I'm appalled. I never heard that."
"Did you know that?"
"No. Except..."
The questioning returned several times to an apparent ruse that Epstein often used to get closer to young women and girls, pretending to be a model or a talent scout for Victoria's Secret, which was at its heyday in the late '90s and early 2000s.
"How did Mr. Epstein act towards women or girls around him?"
"In, in his presence or..."
"In your presence?"
"Yes. I, I guess the answer would be kind of normal and nice. He would, you know, he would, like, send my secretary or admin flowers for her birthday. Uh, courteous, I would say."
"Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with young women or girls?"
"Absolutely not."
"Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually abuse young women or girls?"
"Absolutely not."
"Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive massages from young women or girls?"
"Absolutely not."
"Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts of any kind with you?"
"No."
"Did he ever discuss receiving massages?"
"Yes."
"What were the nature of those conversations?"
"He told me massage therapy was great, and I should get massages."
"Did he ever discuss who he was receiving massages from?"
"No."
"So, it is your testimony today that you don't recall him ever saying anything about receiving massages from young women or girls?"
"Absolutely not."
"Or absolutely. I'm agreeing with you. Didn't do that."
"Was it common for Epstein to bring young women or girls to any other place where the two of you would meet?"
"Never."
"Did Mr. Epstein ever request that you bring Victoria's Secret models to events at your home?"
"No. And no Victoria's Secret models ever came to my home, even for business purposes."
"Didn't talk about one exception. Have you seen..."
"Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. There's one exception. Uh, my wife had a, um, for about 20 years, a horse show here for charity, and one of the models' husband was a polo player, and I don't know how they showed up as a couple, and he gave either me or my wife a polo horse, which was, I don't ride, and Abigail wasn't interested in a polo horse, so that would have been the only exception."
"Did Mr. Epstein ever request that you introduce him to Victoria's Secret models?"
"Never."
And Wexner was also asked about his connections to President Donald Trump. Said the only times that he recalls seeing him are at the Victoria's Secret fashion shows.
"Did you ever spend time with Epstein and Donald Trump together?"
"Yes."
"I would answer this question accurately. I would go to some of the Victoria's Secret fashion shows. It was very important to the brand. At some of the fashion shows, Jeffrey was there, and some Trump was there. And I remember 'cause Trump would always introduce himself to me, and I always thought it was kind of odd that he was at the fashion show because he had nothing to do with fashion. So, the coincidence of them being together at at an event, it could have been that, but I have no specific recollection. Never had a social or like a drink or a cup of coffee, something, you know, that would put them together."
"Okay. So, just to clarify, because I want to make sure we're clear on the record, you're saying that you can recall instances potentially where Epstein and Trump were together and you were in their presence, or just a random scenario where Epstein may be there, Trump may be there separately, and then you would be..."
"It would be at random. That would be accurate if it happened, but I have no specific recollection."
"Okay. Um, did you ever see or become aware of President Trump having a sexual relationship with a person who was introduced to him by Epstein or Maxwell?"
"No."
"Um, has Donald Trump ever discussed Jeffrey Epstein with you?"
"Nope."
"Did Jeffrey Epstein ever discuss Donald Trump with you?"
"I, I would describe it. He would name-drop it. So he would say things like, 'I know President Clinton,' or 'I know the Pope,' or 'I know God,' or, you know, 'or I know you.' It was that kind of name-dropping, but never, I can't remember specific place, but Jeffrey dropped a lot of names."
"Okay. So, to clarify, you believe he's specifically dropped Donald Trump's name?"
"No, I'm saying it could have, but I don't remember."
"Okay. Um, did Epstein ever share any information with you about Donald Trump's sexual activities?"
"No."
"Do you have a relationship with Donald Trump?"
"No."
"But you've met him before?"
"He would, he introduced himself to me at the fashion show a couple of times, but I wouldn't say hello, how are you? Like you say, met like in, we knew each other. We don't know each other. He wouldn't. I'd be shocked if he remembered me."
Towards the end of the deposition. Okay. One of the congressmen read out allegations that had been made by women apparently fooled by this model scout ruse. Take a look.
"It's been publicly reported that in 1993, uh, President Cynthia Fetus Fields, who was an executive at Victoria's Secret at the time, was alerted that Epstein was holding himself out as a Victoria's Secret scout and that you were alerted to the problem. And, quote, said that you would stop it. Does that sound like the time frame in which you recall being told about the issue?"
"Maybe it doesn't. It could have been. I was trying to think when she worked in the business and when she left, but, yeah, probably right. I, I don't know for sure."
"What do you specifically recall about when you were alerted to the issue? In other words, who approached you and what did they describe specifically?"
"Something like, uh, 'Jeff's trying to pick up women and he says he's a Victoria's Secret talent scout.' I said, 'That's, yeah, terrible or the nonsense,' or 'I'll put a stop to it,' something like that, because I couldn't, it could be possible, I think, in my memory, but I didn't, I didn't believe it. But I know I called him up and said, 'Are you, you know, Jeffrey, what is going on?' He said, 'Do you think I'm stupid?' I said, 'Because I hope not, because if not, you'll be dead.' Very brief, very brief conversation. I remember him being definite about it, didn't happen. And I'm, it wasn't a long conversation. I was mad. So it was a blanket denial from Mr. Epstein."
"That's very accurate."
"And did you believe or were you convinced by his denial at the time?"
"At the time, yes, I did believe it. So, is it right that you, you were not no longer upset following that conversation because you believed that he had not in fact held himself out as a scout?"
"That's accurate. Yes, that's how I felt."
"Do you recall whether you had the impression that your executives simply made the story up?"
"Or I don't recall just knowing how I think about things. I, I probably would have said, 'This is just Jeffrey being single, you know, it's a thing to say. A rumor could get started. I got to chase it down because, you know, God forbid that anybody was doing the business, let alone outside the business, was dating people in the business or dating models or recruiting them or any, any of the stuff that we now know is true. I would have fired him on the spot.'"
"In May 1997, a young woman named says that she was introduced to a man who identified himself as a talent scout for Victoria's Secret. That was Jeffrey Epstein. Mr. Epstein allegedly invited Ms. to his hotel room in Santa Monica, California, to audition for the catalog. When she arrived, Mr. Epstein grabbed her, tried to undress her, and said he wanted to, quote, 'manhandle her.' Mled in tears, and filed a police report. It's one of the earliest allegations that are known against Mr. Epstein."
"Yeah."
"Were you alerted to this sexual assault at the time?"
"Same objection to hearsay, but go ahead."
"Kind of the same answer. I don't know how I knew about it, and you called Jeffrey like, 'What the hell's going on, Jeffrey?' And I was like, 'Do you think I'm stupid? Like, this was a bad girl. You know, I was on a date. She made all this stuff up. You don't think I behave this way, would you?' And like, 'I hope not,' was probably what I said, 'cause I couldn't believe that anybody that I knew would behave like that."
"And what you're describing is that the original single conversation you described earlier, or is that a separate conversation with Mr. Epstein about the issue?"
"I'm a little confused. The, the this question about the lady in the hotel in New York was one conversation, and the notion or the discussion about Jeffrey's interviewing models, I think was a separate one, and they didn't happen simultaneously."
"I understand it sounds like that might have been about four years apart from each other."
"You could tell me four years or four months, I don't remember."
"So it sounds like at that point, there would have been at least two conversations with Mr. Epstein about the broader Victoria's Secret issue."
"Uh, in 2004, a woman named had a similar experience. She was invited to Mr. Epstein's New York home under the impression that he would be able to get her a job as a Victoria's Secret model. Mr. Epstein apparently allegedly undressed and handed her a miss threw the at his head and ran out of the room. Were you made aware of this allegation at the time?"
"I, I never heard this story before."
"In 2005, the New York Post ran an article describing a Romanian model who allegedly uh land a gig at Wexner's Victoria's Secret brand thanks to Mr. Epstein. Did you have any knowledge about models who actually acquired jobs at Victoria's Secret directly or indirectly through Mr. Epstein?"
"Laughing. No, but I didn't meet, interview, or pick models. That wasn't what I did, and no one in the business did."
"And but just to phrase it clearly, to your knowledge, did Victoria's Secret ever hire or contract with a model at the recommendation of Jeffrey Epstein?"
"No. I, I can't imagine they did. No. I, I wouldn't know if they did, but I'm the, the way that we've handled our marketing, it couldn't have happened that I think I would have, I would have known 'cause it was just wasn't the practice."
"Could I ask one follow-up question with respect to that second conversation and the young woman named? I know they were a few years apart, but if you recall, was there any part of you that doubted whether Mr. Epstein had been truthful in his denial with you the first time?"
"At the time, I don't think I connected them. You can't imagine how busy I was. I was engaged. I was married. I'm running 20 businesses. I never made the connection."
"And as far as you recall, those are the only two times that you were alerted to Mr. Epstein holding himself out as affiliated with Victoria's Secret?"
"Those stories. Yeah."
According to Wexner, he had never been questioned by any law enforcement agency in connection with Epstein and his alleged sex trafficking operation, which, if this is true, is startling to say the least. But again, we don't know this for sure.
"We discussed earlier in this deposition, um, around the time frame of 2019, if you had any involvement with, um, law enforcement as they investigated Mr. Epstein for his crimes he was ultimately charged with in New York. Um, just to clarify, did you speak to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein's investigation in New York in 2019?"
"Never. Didn't. Now, I don't remember ever talking to any law enforcement agency."
"Did you ever provide any documentation to any law enforcement agency of any kind regarding Jeffrey Epstein and his investigation in New York in 2019?"
"Not to my knowledge."
"And just to be clear, you never formally interviewed with anyone from the FBI or Department of Justice about Jeffrey Epstein or his criminal investigation in 2019?"
"Never."
"Did Mr. Epstein ever contact you or attempt to contact you after his arrest in 2019?"
"I don't think so. He was dead."
"Well, before he died."
"No, I mean, dead with me."
"Understood. Did anyone affiliated with Mr. Epstein ever reach out to you in 2019 regarding his investigation in New York?"
"Never. No one."
"Okay, I have to highlight this. So, as the deposition passed the four-hour mark, the 88-year-old started going off on more and more tangents. His attorney did not seem to be happy about this. And I want you to listen carefully because it seems his attorney at one point not only had to rein him in..."
"Answer the question."
"Okay."
"I, I'm sure we all appreciate the stories. We're just trying to to answer the questions they actually wanted the answers."
"That's very helpful. Thank you."
"I, I hope it is. As an example, I wouldn't, I, I didn't have the idea to inventory furniture or valuables. And he's like, 'How could you have all silverware in your house?' And I didn't count forks and spoons. And it's like, 'Jeff, so people could be walking out with forks and spoons.' Gee, that's a good idea. We ought to have an inventory. But then there was a, I hired a lady to be like the house manager who had run the U.S. embassy in Rome, and she said, 'Yeah, I know how to do this.' And I said, and I said, 'Well, why don't we keep inventories of stuff?' And she said, 'Yeah, I could do that.' So she did that. As that's kind of a puny example, but I wouldn't have had the idea. But then all the things were inventoried. That wasn't work for me or Jeffrey. It was just regularly done. I will kill you if you answer another question."
"Okay."
"Kind of tough to hear, but his counsel seemingly said, 'I will effing kill you if you answer another question with more than five words.'"
Okay, Wexner laughed. A lot to make of that one. Look, I will say any attorney doesn't want their client saying more than they have to under oath. Anything can open them up to liability or further questions. Optically, for a guy who claims that he was completely in the dark, that he's innocent, what's the harm of saying too much? Right.
"Mr. Wexner, is it your testimony here today that Mr. Epstein's wealth came from not only yourself, but also this extensive network of clients that also were wealthier, otherwise influential individuals?"
"No question. Absolutely. And you know, sitting here today, um, with the benefit of hindsight being 2020, how do you think that the United States Congress could prevent the crimes and, in your words, cons Mr. Epstein and by extension Ms. Maxwell committed on, uh, victims around the world and specifically in the United States?"
"Well, I would hope that, uh, this interview or whatever it is today would help you to understand that he was a crook and a con man. And in hindsight, you know, uh, looking back, he would make Bernie Madoff look like a boy scout. So complete, so diabolical. I mean, just incredible, sinister. If I were giving the government advice, I'd tell them, the IRS, to look into Jeffrey. He couldn't have made all that money and spent all that money, had had the lifestyle he did, and be the crook that he was, and pay taxes. So if, if he would do the things that he did to those women and do the things that he did to me, uh, then anything is possible. I, I believe. And so the, you know, if Al Capone got went to jail for for stealing, for being a crook and tax evasion, it would be so obvious to me today that now that I know Jeffrey's a crook and the things he did and the people he was associated with, there was a lot of money and he got it from a lot of people. I, I can't believe that he had time to really work 'cause he was playing so goddamn much, and I never knew it. If it's my attorney or your attorney, I don't, I don't even know if you're, I would assume your attorney, but if you had one, and every time you talked to him and he said, 'I'm in the office working on your stuff,' I don't think you'd run over there to see whether he was working on your stuff or believe that he wasn't in the office. But the con was so ter, just crazy. I mean, I, I've searched my memory and say, 'Why didn't I pick up clues?' And I think he would have, he could trick me all over again if I was, you know, if I was in that position of trust with someone like that. Really bad. I think unbelievable stuff to me now that I look back."
"Do you have any recollection of having any form of contact with him after 2008?"
"Nothing. I'm positive that I had no con, no con, no communication of any kind. I keep repeating from my point of view, died. I didn't want to even think about it."
"Do you have any reflections as we close this conversation, whether it's on your relationship with Mr. Epstein or the pain and suffering that he and his accomplices inflicted on countless victims and survivors, largely with your resources? Any reflections of any kind on the entire topic?"
"Objection. Assumes fact not in evidence."
"Well, I believe he had a lot of resources besides mine. I think the only thing I said earlier was I think if you really, if you understand, I think you know, I think he had, in hindsight, multiple personalities, um, incredibly smart, which I didn't really see. I mean, well, you can bullshit Nobel laureates about physics and university professors and physicians and all the people that I've read about. I mean, if it was a movie, no one would believe it. I mean, but what I read about him and the connections is so, and I think that the perspective to understand it would be to understand how intelligent he was in his as a criminal and all the things that he did. And I mean, I, I have trouble imagining how we could just do all the shit that he did, forget about work, in a 48-hour day because it was always so busy with my stuff. And then you find out all these relationships. It's just mind-boggling. And, and some of it even today, I, I, I, I can't believe that it's so. But I, some of this stuff I believe because I read about it. I mean, stuff I read yesterday, I go, I can't, pardon me, I can't believe this. And I think to understand it, the criminal activities, all this stuff, it's like, I hope you guys are really good. And, as I said earlier, I, I hope, you know, probably to the dismay of, um, of my advisors, to to give you an accurate picture of how I am and how he was, how I perceived him. And I mean, diabolical isn't a big enough word. And I think I said earlier, Bernie Madoff was a boy scout compared to Jeffrey. I mean, you, you, if I just believe what I read in the press about people that he contacted, that he, university presidents, Gurgen, my friend. I mean, it's just crazy. But, but he was beyond perfect or good at at doing all the that he did. It's just, I, I think it's, um, the rumor and innuendo that goes around me makes me very mad because I think I'm a very straight arrow and a very responsible person. I don't want to give you a speech on my virtue, but I'm comfortable in my own, my own skin. And I look at, I say, it's so preposterous to me what he got away with so long with so many people that I can't imagine how a mind could do that and be robbing banks. It's, it's crazy. Thank you. And then one last question. Uh, I think your counsel has represented to DOJ that your assets accounted for virtually all of Mr. Epstein's wealth. Sounds like you don't agree with that."
"I don't, I wouldn't know it, but I don't, I really don't know what his wealth is. But, you know, island, house, all that, lifestyle, buying people's gifts, you know, and it would seem to me that having a good sense of how much money now he probably stole from us or more than that that we don't even know about yet because it was disguised. Uh, I, I, I, I think it's a vast. I know if, if you said it to do all the things he did, and I know now, I know he was, if you would, a bank robber, bank robbers don't rob one bank, that that was just there, there's more there. And I can understand why people like myself who who were robbed don't want to be mentioned because they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to, you know, appear naive or dumb. Um, I mean, when I look in the mirror, I know I see an honest person, but in this, I was completely blind."
"Okay."
"Thank you. Go off record."
"Okay. During a break in the deposition, the members of Congress that were questioning Wexner came out to give reporters an idea of what was going on inside. Because, to be clear, this video deposition hadn't been released yet."
"It's clear that Mr. Mr. Wexner is trying to downplay how close Jeffrey Epstein and Mr. and Mr. Wexner actually were. And we should be very clear that there would be no Epstein Island. There would be no Epstein plane. There would be no money to traffic women and girls. Mr. Epstein would not be the wealthy man he was without the support of Les Wexner. I think it's very important for us to note at this moment. There's a significant amount of questioning that has gone on, but I want to say one other thing and then I'm going to turn it over. We are committed to ending this cover-up. Right now, as we speak, over 50% of the Epstein files have not been released to the public and to the Congress. The more this deposition goes on, the less less Wexner knows about, uh, his relationship with with Jeffrey Epstein. There was a deep trust between these two men. There was a deep friendship there, not only in a business sense, but but Les Wexner gave Epstein the ability to handle his children's and his family's money. So, at least that part of it, that part of it, uh, makes it hard to believe Les Wexner's testimony thus far. It may be, it may be a question as to whether Les Wexner was involved in the crimes directly, but there is no question in my mind, given the evidence so far, that Les Wexner knew about this and failed to stop it and gave Epstein license and the ability to commit these crimes."
Yeah. So, it seems they're not buying that there's so much that Wexner can't recall when it seems that he was one of the people that Epstein was closest with for a large chunk of his life. Maybe for now, many in Congress, they're still calling for more of the Epstein files to be released or unredacted. This is, by the way, despite the DOJ's indication that there's really nothing else to provide. But I will tell you one thing, this story and what's in those files is not going anywhere. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. You can also check us out on NBC's Peacock as well. If you want to follow me, X, Instagram, my NewsNation show, Jesse Weber Live, Monday through Friday, 11:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll see you next time, everybody.