NHS Doctor: The Real Reason You're Always Tired | David Unwin x Peter McCormack Show

The choices you make with every meal you eat is helping choose your future. There is research to show that 14% of the adult population is now addicted to junk food. It affects how your brain is wired. It is terrible. It was well documented, I think, by the New York Times. So, they have laboratories and they're looking for the bliss point. So when they're making biscuits or whatever, they they they have volunteers go in, some of whom get head scans and they're looking for what gets those little lights to go off in your head.

>> What is the bliss point?

We have a system in my opinion that makes money out of you while it makes you fat and then makes money out of you through the medication as I merely control what's wrong instead of sorting it.

Welcome, David. Welcome. Good to meet you.

>> Thank you.

>> Uh I can't remember who recommended uh you to me. Somebody recommended you and said uh you cover too much politics. You need to get into some other subjects and I highly recommend getting David Unwin on the show. So I did my research and uh I think it was for two reasons. I think one, yeah,

>> they think you're fascinating and a good person to talk to, be good for the audience.

>> I think they were also thinking of what I've got going on here. My

>> You know, I was just looking at your tummy there and thinking maybe maybe we could do something about that.

>> I'm a I'm a bit overweight, David. I uh so uh I once got got into really good shape running every day. Um got down to about 12 and a half stone. Uh, but it was a time when I was vegan and I know you're not a fan of that, but uh, I was very healthy and then I put my back out and I slowly just got bigger and bigger over the last seven years.

>> Do you There's a little thing there that could be wrong. Do you believe that the lack of exercise is why you are larger now? Is that a belief that you have?

>> No, I think it's diet.

>> Thank you. Yeah, I think it's a mixture of lifestyle and diet. mainly my lifestyle is so busy that I don't plan plan my meals. So when I got into good shape when I was a vegan

>> I took a year off work so I made every meal fresh.

>> Now it's like today we had a bit big bagel at lunchtime and we're rushing around.

>> Sad. Yeah.

>> But I know it's completely down to personal dis all of this is down to personal discipline.

>> H you know I dispute that as well. I I I think we talk far too much about, you know, cuz that if it's down to personal discipline, how does that feel for you? You know, does this mean you're lazy? Does it mean you lack discipline? And if if that is so, how is that for all the listeners that are overweight? Because my message is is not that you lack willpower, that you you're somehow weak. I I think that is almost a dangerous statement and it it's really bad for people's self-esteem.

>> Yeah.

>> To believe that there's some kind of an inevitable consequence of their lack of discipline because I think there are some other major factors. We're getting ahead of oursel here.

>> The choices around us, isn't it?

>> It is the choices around us. But we'll come back to this, but I absolutely believe that many junk foods are addictive.

>> And so, um, you know, if you think about somebody with nicotine or alcohol, the choices they make, it's something way beyond weakness of spirit, isn't it?

>> Yeah. And what if so if if something like nicotine or alcohol, what if those factors were similar for food? And what if your food choices were also governed by a possible addiction? Because if that was true, that would be another explanation why so many people in the UK have a big tummy and high blood pressure and all of the other things that come with being overweight. And that would be a very different thing. So you touched on politics and I think one of the things about politics is they like to think well it's it's all down to individual freedoms. You should all eat what you like. And that's great because they can just wash their hands of you now because it's all up to you. But but what if there was if if junk food addiction did exist and it was serious and many people were eating without the ability to control what they're eating. That's something far more serious.

>> Okay, fair. Okay, fair.

>> So, there we are.

>> Well, look, I know it's within my control because I've done it before.

>> Good.

>> And I know is a combination of the choices I make.

>> Yes.

>> With the options in front of me.

>> Yes.

>> That I don't always make the best choice. We We will come to that. Let's let's go back a step. Uh and I'll use myself as the

>> the patient for this.

>> I'm 46.

>> Yes.

>> I am probably 16 stone. I don't know what that is in kilos.

>> I I know when I was 12 and a half stone I was I felt good, look good,

>> could wear smaller clothes.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but but lots of parts of my lifestyle were better, sleeping better. All these these parts

>> but I am 46 and every year that ticks over I think it becomes more important. This it it becomes more aware to me I need to be thinking about these things. Why? Why should people care about this?

>> Wow. Because the choices you make with every meal you eat is helping choose your future. So, as you sit there right now, I can see with my experience as a doctor. I've looked after the same population of 10,000 people for 40 years. I have seen people like you grow older and I know there's a range of possibilities.

>> Mhm.

>> And some of those make me sad. And that's why I do this now because I think how much better that I speak to you now and say you could be amazing, you could be magnificent, you could be so healthy and strong. But equally, you know, with um a bigger belly brings with it an increased risk of eight cancers. Did you know that?

>> I didn't. I assumed cancer, but I didn't know. Eight.

>> Eight forms. Colorctyl is I've seen colurectal cancer going up and up in my practice and it's occurring at a younger age and it's linked to a big belly. The other thing is high blood pressure which you may not have yet but it it'll probably come. Uh my personal p passion is preventing type 2 diabetes and that starts with a big belly. So you see you you have a spectrum of futures that really interests me and being a doctor is about making a difference. That's it's the it's like being a magician because I I sit in front of people like you and sometimes the magic really works. You wouldn't believe what I see in clinic after clinic people choosing a better future. And I think that diet has a massive part to play but you have to want a better future. motivation is absolutely key and then support and information. And so I often say to people uh it it often comes about that somebody comes in and if I did your blood pressure now it might be raised a little you're 16 stone that wouldn't surprise me and then you'd have a choice only normally or nearly never would you be given that choice. Oh my, if I found that you were maybe pre-diabetes or if I found your blood pressure was up, I'd be saying, "Right, this is really interesting. We've got a choice today. Would you be interested in improving your lifestyle? Or shall we consider starting lifelong medication? Which would you rather? Should we start drugs today or are you interested in my ideas around losing weight, getting fit? Which do you want to do?

>> I want that second option.

>> Of course, because you're an intelligent person and this is what I've discovered with my patients. So for 12 years, whenever this has come up, so it could be a weight problem, it could be blood pressure, could be diabetes. I'm saying to people, well, I'm using a collaborative approach so that this is you are an expert in yourself and you're in charge of your future because it is your future. So, I'm not going to bully you,

>> okay?

>> But I'm giving you the choices. And I find that for sort of bloys like you, that goes down really well because you quite like to be free of choice. And what has happened within my practice is astonishing. So we save we've saved so far. So I started this approach in 2013 and last time I calculated it we've saved £370,000 on the diabetes drug budget alone. Because if with person after person you say, you know, do you want life lifestyle or long-term medication? And if most patients say to me, just like you, well, I keep saving. And those savings are like standing orders, aren't they? Because every time I start somebody on lifelong medication, that's a standing order against the treasury. So that these savings mount up startlingly. And now I'm at somewhere around 370,000 on diabetes alone. But I'm also saving with blood pressure. I've written papers on all of these things.

>> Can I ask, do you work privately or you work in

>> Not at all? No. My credibility absolutely rests on I'm an NHS GP doing 10-minute appointments and I'm proof of concept of lifestyle medicine because I'm doing it. these people. No, I never take on private patients. I won't do it because it's kind of bad for me.

>> But that's not you're not you're not going to be the standard NHS GP.

>> uh no but increasingly so I'm a fellow of the British Society of Lifestyle Medicine and and those are hundreds of doctors interested in this approach because you know if you could just imagine my life so up until I was 55 this conversation would have been so different

>> I would just use medication I didn't believe that people were capable of lifestyle I'll change and so well really and why did that happen? I'm really why did that happen? And it happened because my advice was rubbish and you know I never had the humility to admit. So I blame patients because they're lazy. I would you know and and my least favorite patients were people who were overweight and with diabetes because I had a a completely erroneous belief that they were lazy and weakwilled. as we began this discussion.

>> How shocking now. I am so sorry. Because if you think about it, what was the common denominator be behind all those failures? It was me. My advice was poor. I had some terrible advice. You know, I used to say to somebody about weight, I I actually said things like, "Well, nobody fat came out of Bellson." And I I I used to suggest the most horrendous diet. I'd say, "Right, going to put you on this diet." And it's I think it was two pints of skim milk a day and a table tablespoon of all brand and a vitamin tablet. Like, who can live on that? It was grotesque. And then when it didn't work, I thought, "There you go." And I medicated people until I was 55 years old. And uh now I think so differently and I am so sorry for what I did before then using the medication and not believing in people like you because surely that's the beginning of a relationship where you believe try and believe the best in people and they often surprise you and delight you.

>> But what happened at 55? What was the switch?

>> Oh two uh two things two very clever women. Uh, one was um we were paid at the time, maybe we still are in part, to check that our patients with diabetes were taking their medication. And the computer system keeps a um a kind of log of who's who's taking the the drugs. And I knew that one of my patients wasn't taking her metformin, which is the the usual drug for diabetes. And so what we used to do at the time was write a slightly aggressive letter saying, "Dear Mrs. So and so, I'm a bit disappointed. I noticed maybe you're not taking your medication, which you know is there for your health. Please, uh, I've made your appointment a week on Thursday. Please come and see me." Wow. Nothing prepared me for what was going to happen. This lady who I'd known for 10 years well and her husband and her family was hopping mad. She came in hopping mad. And if there's one thing, you know, old doctors, you fear complaints. They're messy. They take time. And um she was clearly going to put in a a grievance against me. And the the basis of this was, well, Dr. Roman, for 10 years you've given me that metformid, and now you're going to tell me off because I'm not taking it. But actually when you do my blood test you will find my blood sugar is completely normal because I have completely reversed my diabetes without your help. The reason I'm not taking the metformin is I don't need it. When we did the blood test she was correct. Her blood sugars were normal. She didn't need the metformin. Then when that that was a second um appointment she said Dr. When I met you last time, um, you know, I was upset really because you didn't seem very curious about what I'd done. And, you know, I'm wondering whether you're medically qualified because my problem as somebody with type 2 diabetes is basically sugar. And a school boy knows that starchy foods like bread, like potato, like rice, and breakfast cereals all break down into loads of sugar. That's old level biology. Have you even got Ole biology? I was scared. But she'd made an absolutely accurate point. I had never once I might have mentioned sugar, but I never once mentioned starchy carbs. And that was one woman. So, she had me really, really interested and it turned out uh she was part of 40,000 people online putting their diabetes into remission but being criticized and ridiculed by health care professionals across the UK. And I suddenly saw this is a terrible terrible injustice. uh because these people were getting good results. Yeah. And um

>> doctors like me were shroud waving and say well you'll probably die because you're not taking the medication. Now we have to come to the second clever woman. That was a very clever woman. The second one was my wife.

>> Uh she is a consultant psychologist. So she specializes in behavior change. And it is her that knows a lot about the collaborative approach. Don't tell people off if you want them to change. You know, she she said to me one day, "So, how's it going, David, with your approach?" Because telling people off, how does that go? And the truth is, people go and never come back. You didn't come to me to be told off. It doesn't, you know, I've got to intrigue you. I have to motivate you. And Jen, my clever wife, taught me a great deal about that. and together. What happened over the next uh however many years it is since 2013, we've done it together, my wife and I, as a project for fun and to help.

>> And I can't believe what's happened. I just can't believe that was me then and how different I am now and the influence that we have and the lives we have changed. You know, we were front page last week of the Daily Express.

>> Here we go.

>> Which is like, who gets to be on the front page? The full of the front page. I've been on the front page of the of the New Scientist. That most of the news is all cooked up in my opinion. The front pages are all cooked up. But if if somebody like me gets on the front page and that's weird and it doesn't happen easily.

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>> Did your lifestyle change alongside this?

>> Oh, completely. And that's that's a really good question because I was like you, only older. So, I had I had uh I thought I just gained weight because of age.

>> See if you can find any old pictures of David Con. See if we can find

>> I I was very careful. There was one or two, but I was very What you actually do is suck your tummy in, don't you? And um just at the top and that

>> I used to get away with that. Now, even sucking in, I've still got a belly sticking out.

>> So, I think in common with very many people, so I I had middle-aged spread. I was tired. I lacked stamina. And I thought that was just age. In fact, for me, it was so bad. Um, I was the senior partner of the practice, so I'm in charge. So, at lunchtime, I would need a 20 minute sleep on my own doctor's couch. So, I you just press do not disturb. I'm the boss. Nobody is to disturb. And I was fast asleep. But what would I do when I woke up? I'd need a strong coffee and a bar of a milk chocolate.

>> Okay. And and biscuits and you know, where did that lead? And then my blood pressure went up. But if I didn't want to be a patient, so I put my head in the sands and I just stopped me I stopped measuring my own blood pressure because I didn't want bad news.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like how ridiculous. And I think if I can be that foolish, so can you.

>> Yeah.

>> I was a doctor with all I know and I had the high blood pressure but I was too too busy to address it

>> tomorrow. Tomorrow. But then um so a little bit more of the story. Um so I I came up with the idea of this this is the low carb approach. So you instead of eating starchy carbs you have more protein and more green veg. And I thought well how about we we do this for the for some of the patients particularly younger people with pre-diabetes because we weren't doing anything for that population at all. We knew who they were because we were paid to maintain a register of people with pre-diabetes. But how horrible is this? We knew who they were and did absolutely nothing.

>> And I was really worried about the young people. So I I said to the partners, right, I want to do this thing. And they said we argued a lot because they said, you're not paid to do it. Because we weren't. And they said, you know, we we're not a charity. we can't as a practice do work that's just not remunerated. I argued and fought and then we come to that second clever woman, my wife. And she said, "So, David, we're not going to do this exciting thing because we're not paid." And she looked me right in the eye and she said, "David, how many cars do we have? And are we short of something?" And she said, "I I thought I'd married a doctor."

>> Yeah. She's formidable. She didn't look it, but she's clever. She's a psychologist. She knows. And but then she said, "Right, David.

>> Uh, we're going to do this for free." So, we set up a group on a Monday night. Every Monday night, a nurse, a lovely nurse called Heather said, "I'd love to do this. I want to do something I believe in. I'll work for free." And my wife said, "I'll work for free." And, "David, you're going to work for free." And we did them as group consultations. And you know what? We're still doing them for free. So I did one last Wednesday night and it's fun and it's collaborative and now I've got a great many patient experts who will go on television for me. They will go on on the media and also they're helping me coach other people with diabetes, overweight. So you see what an adventure and then it's led to many many other enormous things all of this.

>> So so we're talking about type two two diabetes.

>> We are and it's very important nobody says diabetes anymore. It's it's uh it's people with type two diabetes. Yes. So they're not diabetics. They're people with two type two diabetes. Type one is a completely separate subject and is not really my expertise. I am a for your interest I'm a Royal College of General Practitioners clinical expert in diabetes but my expertise is type two diabetes and I try and stick where I know

>> and so explain to me uh what is happening with type two diabetes when when somebody is uh pre-diabetic

>> yes

>> and then they become diabetic and then we'll talk about reversing and and how would I know for example if I'm pre-diabetic

>> okay do you know I'd rather there's something else we must touch before then

>> the context.

>> So the context is not just an epidemic of type 2 diabetes. It's a pandemic.

>> Okay,

>> it's an absolute pandemic. Uh all over the world, doctors like me are struggling to cope with a sheer number of people with type 2 diabetes. And I can illustrate this with my own practice. When I started, so I'm a GP north of Liverpool in Southport. When I started there, we audited everybody with type two diabetes in the whole practice just a month after um I joined them as a partner. And at that time there were 56 individuals with type 2 diabetes in my practice. There are now about 600 and it's the same practice. So what we have

>> over what period was that?

>> That was 1986 to now.

>> 86 96. So that's about 40 years. So now I've got a question.

>> Yes.

>> Why do you think I have seen a tenfold increase in type 2 diabetes in my practice? What do you Why do you think people have diabetes? What's the reason?

>> I think it's a ch a change in dietary habits.

>> It is. Thank you. That's the you get a Thank you. That's the right answer. The wrong answer is like genetics and stuff like that because you couldn't change the genetics of my patients in 40 years. And people believing that their genes mean that they're heavy or diabetic is is a slightly doomy type thing because then you think, well, I'm an inevitable consequence of my genes.

>> Now, genes do play a part, but the environment is acting on genetic predisposition. And you're you're absolutely right. What I have seen so I've seen a t-fold increase in type two diabetes in my own practice. And you know, just think about what that means. That means amputation. That means blindness. That means a lot of unhappiness and great deal of suffering.

>> And sometimes I'm signing death certificates. Think about that.

>> Yes.

>> How is it to go, you know, several times a week and see people you've known and sign the death certificates. It really affects you. Um, it's tragic. What was come up?

>> Uh, how many people have Okay. An estimated 6.3 million people are at an increased risk of type 2 diabetes in the UK based on blood sugar levels. We estimate that 1.3 million are currently living with type two diabetes but yet to be diagnosed.

>> They don't even know.

>> That means an estimated 12.1 million adults in the UK are living with diabetes or pre-diabetes. They are huge numbers.

>> Yeah.

>> So I could actually be

>> you may now there's something

>> do you know I'm so sorry I haven't answered your question. I I want to come back to something else. I want to come back to fatty liver and and so fatty liver is about a third of the whole of the developed world now fatty liver. But before we come back to fatty liver which is another pandemic let me just answer your questions. So you were asking me

>> about the diagnosis of pre-diabetes and diabetes and how you might know and how it might affect you.

>> Um, having a big belly in my opinion is a real risk factor.

>> Okay?

>> And and that's uh I mean one real way to for listeners is your belly should be less than half your height. So if you put a piece of tape around your tummy

>> Yeah.

>> All right. And then um doubled it, you should then be short. That piece of cotton should be shorter than you are.

>> So is the circumference of my belly.

>> Yeah,

>> it's just less than three foot.

>> Right. So you might be bored like I don't know. But the other question for for for men is measuring your belly at its fattest. So a lot of bloss and I used to do this

>> ho the belly up and get your belt on underneath.

>> Yeah, I do that.

>> And and you might tell me,

>> here's a question. What size waist are your uh jeans?

>> My jeans are a 34 inch.

>> Right. Well, I would believe that your tummy is bigger than that cuz you're wearing your jeans.

>> Feel it hanging over the top.

>> So, I I you know, I'm a great one if I can for scrupulous honesty and and so if you're measuring your waist and you're going to do that, measure it at the fattest because who are you fooling if you tell me your waist is 34? It's your health, not mine. and and uh so waist to height ratio is a very good predictor of cardiovascular disease and many other things and it's so simple

>> 36 in would be 3 foot.

>> Yes, it would.

>> And I mean 34 in jeans with this over so I'm probably nearer 40 something.

>> Yeah. I mean, I've done this on hundreds and hundreds of patients and I always ask them what they think their waist is and then I say, I'll just measure waist for you and then that begins again a curious and then they they there's a bit of reality there.

>> Y

>> and you know what I did all those years ago was I I was king can commuting it, wasn't I? I I was not being honest. Uh and and I had to start being honest about that. So just so that's a simple thing keeping on track with uh pre-diabetes and type two diabetes is your waist to height ratio. As a doctor I'm measuring how sugary is your blood and the blood test is called the hemoglobin A1C. That's the fancy name but it's it's the average suginess of your blood in the preceding 120 days before you have the blood test. Okay. And that's so you can't cheat. So my mother, bless her, I have a a remarkable mother. She's 89. And uh she would just not eat the donuts and the cakes on the day of the blood test when we used to just measure blood sugar. But now we've got cleverer than that. So if you think about this, if it's the average suginess of your blood, well then it's no good giving up Mars bars today or yesterday because I know,

>> right?

>> I know. So that's the hemoglobin A1C. And then just a few figures for you. If it's under 42, if the result comes in as under 42, that's officially normal. If it's between 42 and 48, you are you have pre-diabetes. If it's 48 or above, you you actually have type 2 diabetes.

>> Okay.

>> And all sorts of things come from that.

>> Are there are there other symptoms that I

>> Yes.

>> Right. Um, personally I found tiredness was the thing kind of a lack of energy. So I was 55 and the sort of thing I remember is putting my feet up on the sati a lot you know and I'd say I'm tired at the end of the day so I couldn't wait to get my feet up. And if you'd said to me in the evening shall we go walk or shall we whatever I was tired. Connor, what are our evenings like?

>> He ends up falling asleep on the couch.

>> Yeah, that was me

>> about 8 9:00. I used to be able to work till midnight. 8 9:00 feed up.

>> If we put a film on, I'm asleep within

>> 5 minutes. Five minutes.

>> Yeah, that was me completely. And I just put that down to age.

>> Um

>> there is a lack of sleep involved as well.

>> Sure. But whether I sleep or I don't sleep, it's the same every evening pretty much.

>> Yeah. And what's in what I found very within a month I needed an hours less sleep a night and I didn't need my lunchtime sleeps anymore and I started feeling more energetic. The thing I value most is the mental clarity that I have now. So the fog gone. I didn't Well, you don't know it's gone till it's gone. You I didn't know I had mental fog or what that even meant. And when patients tried to tell me, of course, I I wasn't even curious. But that was that was the thing that and I I tell you how it happened that bloss were a bit competitive, slightly

>> mildly

>> mildly competitive. And the younger male partners, I could feel that mentally they were overtaking me in their mental stamina. It's a sense I had. But after only 2 months, I was as sharp as I'd been ever. And it was wonderful. And since then, that same sharpness has allowed me to I've now published 30 at least 30 peer-reviewed papers. I'd never written anything. It was beyond me to write things. I've done TV, radio, loads of things requiring concentration. And now I can really concentrate which I couldn't. Yeah, I find so the mental fog is new.

>> Yeah.

>> But most days from about now I am I feel a tiredness through my body.

>> Yes.

>> It just exists all day long.

>> Let's discuss that. And you know I'm really enjoying this. Um so the model I would give you is is you are a marvelous dual fuel engine. You can burn two different fuels and your fuels are fat or sugar. However, one of the things with getting a bigger belly and some of the things with age for some people is your insulin, the hormone that regulates blood sugar, may not be working quite as well. And that means if that happens in order to regulate your blood sugar, so insulin reduces blood sugar. It controls it. But if it's not working as well, your only alternative is to produce more insulin, which is just naturally how you still have a normal blood sugar. But that has some disadvantages. So insulin, one thing, think about here's another question. Would you agree that insulin sorts out a high blood sugar? So if you eat a Mars bar, your blood sugar goes up. Insulin is going to get rid of that spike of blood sugar. Would you agree with that?

>> I don't really know, but I'm going to nod and I think so.

>> So only because I know of

>> Well, people with type 1 diabetes are using insulin, aren't they? To get rid of their blood sugar

>> and sometimes they're having a Mars bar.

>> Yes. Yeah. So the question is if it's very imported blood sugar damages your arteries in about 6 hours. So nature gives you insulin to protect your arteries from a raised blood sugar.

>> Right.

>> What does the insulin do with that sugar? There's a question for you.

>> Turns into fat.

>> Correct.

>> Well done.

>> Find somewhere to hide it.

>> Yeah. That's your belly right there.

>> But it's not just the belly, is it? It's around the belly.

>> It's your liver. It's particularly the liver and your belly. And that brings me to the point that I wanted to come back to

>> fatty liver. So we had a weird thing in the practice that uh obviously we do hundreds and hundreds of blood tests and we were finding that the liver function of at least a third of all the patients always came back wrong. And it it changed. It wasn't when I was a young doctor, but all the liver function came back wrong. And I had no idea why. But then when we started doing ultrasound scans on the liver, the liver was echo bright, full of fat, fatty liver. I didn't even know that mattered. So I used to say to patients, well, you know, do a bit more exercise and we'll, you know, I was fudging it. I didn't understand what is happening is the fatty liver. So what's happening there is you your insulin isn't working as well. You're beginning to lay down fat in your belly and your liver, but the fat in your liver interferes with the good work of insulin and your insulin doesn't work as well. Becomes a flywheel.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> You can see and there's another thing that happens is you start laying down fat in your pancreas gland. The very gland that's trying hard to give you enough insulin and then the whole system collapses after about 10 years. There's a Prof. Roy Taylor has the most wonderful wonderful quote. He's a very famous uh professor of medicine at Newcastle University and he explains there's a long silent scream from your liver 10 years before you actually become diabetic and people are not listening. And liver function is important and your big belly is important. Um, and fatty liver is a third of everybody you know. It's a third of your friends, of your family, of everybody we know. And increasingly it's children. So I'm now seeing I am seeing type 2 diabetes in people under 20. That was completely unknown when I was a young doctor. We called it maturity onset diabetes. It was supposed to be old people. And uh when I was um in 1986, I didn't we didn't have a single patient under 55 or 60 with diabetes. And the youngest I've got now is 12 years old. This is how serious this is why I'm so passionate and aggressive about this

>> because it's very serious and people's lives can be impacted really badly by this and they've no idea what's doing it and it's the food supply. Are there symptoms of fatty liver I would be aware of?

>> Not really. Apart from possibly the tiredness.

>> Yeah.

>> And the bigger belly. That's what I had. And and also um this this um raised insulin. So if your insulin isn't working as well, then the the way you compensate is by producing more insulin, which is has a name, hyperinsulinemia. It's a posh name for that. But actually a high insulin level tends to cause high blood pressure. So it's one of the causes,

>> right,

>> of high blood pressure. And I've written a P. People always wonder about that. But

>> we've known since 1927 that insulin is one of the major causes of high blood pressure. I've published a paper on it.

>> It's open access. If you look me up on Google, uh it's a paper with Professor Brady and Scott Murray, uh and my own name, and there's a paper on blood pressure there for anybody that's interested. So, this is this is really a public health crisis.

>> Massive. It's internationally. Yeah.

>> I don't go to any country that's not facing a crisis. Either they're struggling to afford the drugs for diabetes or insurance companies are struggling. So it might be a country that's struggling to pay for the drugs or insurance companies are really struggling to pay for the drugs or some countries like India. What happens there is you know I don't know you have you got a dad.

>> Yes.

>> Right. Well what happens there is you know you love your dad and the doctor in India says well your dad needs these expensive medications to keep him alive and you say but I haven't got much money and he said well you'll have to borrow the money or you mortgage yourself to keep your dad alive. Hm. Which you would just do.

>> Which you would do. And And you have How How terrible is that when maybe dad just needs to eat less rice? Maybe you you know, but there's a lot more money in dad using insulin or drugs. And I see this as an international thing. And how we're not really looking at seriously, we're not looking at the cause. Why? How is the answer to the epidemic of type 2 diabetes or obesity the fat jabs or you know how is that the answer if we're not looking at the true cause? What do you think of those fat jabs? Your empics

>> that would be a good hour. Uh I've done some lecturing on this and written I think for the Telegraph and the Daily Express on it and Okay.

>> Is it a sticking plaster?

>> Yes. It I mean it helps people. Yeah,

>> it helps people and I would say for people who are really addicted, if you cannot give up bread, it might help you do that.

>> Okay,

>> but it's a window of opportunity to learn to eat better.

>> But you know, let's not forget in the British Medical Journal it was published that 82 people have died associated with these jabs. Did you know that?

>> I did not know that.

>> Exactly. So, so many things upset me in the modern world. So,

>> you know, if we if we're being grown-ups, I'm telling you the pros and cons of that. You know, you come to me say, "I wondered about the fat jabs." And and we should discuss the pros and cons, shouldn't we?

>> Yeah. Of course.

>> Of course, you say. And you would say informed consent was right that you have before you do this injecting yourself. And that is not what's happening. You'd never even heard that 82 people have died. I've had a patient in intensive care very very ill.

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>> But I have heard the DWP are interested in people being prescribed because there are people who are overweight and not going to work. Again, shocking.

>> Shocking. absolutely horrifies me because again it it speaks it speaks to the belief that overweight people are lazy or whatever and then you're going to medicate them to solve them. It's callous and inhumane and and wrong and it medicalizes those people. Um so yes I do actually use the the injections very carefully but I try a low carb diet first and I have published a paper with troalagen who's an American uh passionate doctor like me and we got using the low carb diet better results for patients with diet than you get with using the fat chaps. So we beat them at one year.

>> Uh so the they both work and I have patients who use the jabs and they benefit but you need to have informed consent. You need to know what you're doing. Now at the moment I can only you can only have them legally for two years. So what you going to do after the two years? Think it through. What will happen to you?

>> Yeah.

>> The evidence is you'll regain the weight. The other thing, a really key thing is sort of why.

>> One of the recurring themes for me is being curious about why are people ill? What's the true problem? Because if we as a public health thing, if we don't understand the true problem, you know, then are the, you know, the fat jabs, is that going to help? How's that going to go? Are we going to how can you know preventing diabetes type two diabetes I think would be good. Can that be done with drugs? No, not really. Also, are we going to use these jabs on young people? Do we know what happens long term? I have no idea.

>> Would you know you've got a son? Would how would you feel about us giving him an injection? How old is he, your son?

>> 21,

>> right? He's 21. You love him. And how's all right?

>> He's all right. But shall we do an experiment? Shall Sh should he be an experiment? Shall we medicate him or inject him when you have no idea? And yet we are.

>> Yeah. No,

>> you can go to an online pharmacist and get these drugs. I have patients that tell me afterwards. I didn't tell you, Dr. Trumin, but I went online and uh you know, I've been using this.

>> I completed the form on Boots.

>> Did you? But it wasn't a ZIC. It was the

>> one of the others. I can't remember. And and and it got to the And I think I

>> How fascinating. So you thought about Well, I thought you do that.

>> I I was just

>> because um quick fix.

>> Exactly.

>> Deals with my dis like So for context and background, I have a background of addiction.

>> Uh and I always seem to have addictions in my life, but I have good and bad ones. I've had a running addiction where I had to run every day. Yes.

>> Or it can be a business addiction. Or it can be nicotine. I've always got seem to have addictions I can't break and I have good and bad ones.

>> Right. This is I've got to interrupt because this is so exciting cuz I didn't know that till then. Did you know that my very very clever wife is a world expert on food addiction?

>> She's probably I would say she is the world expert on food addiction.

>> You need to get her in here as well.

>> You should. And tomorrow, the reason I'm in London is so my wife has a charity which your son knows all about that I told him about the CHC and we are running an international conference today in the Royal College of General Practitioner starts tomorrow

>> and we are flying in the cleverest people in the world on the subject of ultrarocessed food addiction because there is that's what's going on tomorrow. Wow.

>> And we we've raised £50,000 of charitable money to pay to get these clever people in. And there's two days. Maybe you should come because I think you've you know

>> Oh, we have uh we have we have more interviews tomorrow.

>> What a pity. There's Friday, too.

>> What will the will the presentations go online?

>> Yes, they're being recorded. But can we just touch on on so this is part of of my of what I learned.

>> So initially people did really well. People like you can do very well and I could get you down no trouble down to your 12 stone. I know how to do it.

>> Okay. But then what would happen is you'd have Christmas or you'd go on a holiday or you'd have an argument with your son and that would be the excuse to lose control and you would start on the bread and the junk and you'd lose it. And I this happened with patience where in here's the thing when intelligent people like you do stupid stuff what does it mean?

>> We can all do it.

>> Yeah. Number one but maybe it's addiction.

>> Yeah. Because intelligent people have problems with drugs. They are not a heroin addict to annoy me.

>> They're not doing it for a reason. People with an alcohol problem, there's no gain. It's a very sad thing for them and they come to me for help and that is really rough. Or nicotine. So when intelligent people do stuff they know can harm their health, think about addiction. M

>> my wife would tell you that 14% of the population is now addicted to junk food. It may be bread, it could be pizza, it could be crisps. You will have if I had longer with you, I could find out what they are.

>> You know already.

>> Oh, I know them.

>> You know, and if you think, does the idea of junk food addiction, does that seem unreasonable to you from your experience of life? You see, it's funny. Having been through various addictions, I've never thought I actually have a junk food addiction. I just think I take shortcuts for meals.

>> No, that's not true. You're not being truthful.

>> I No, I I'm being truthful. It's like today we do an interview and there's another one, the guys

Pop out and they get me a baby. I agree. But that's what that's your belief. But underlying it is quite likely some features of addiction. Because if you're addicted to something, the answer is always that thing. So if you're addicted to biscuits and I feel a bit stressed, which I was. So for me, why was I eating milk chocolate? Why did I eat so many Jaffa cakes to a point where I ruined my health? I believed I was stressed. I believed that I couldn't plan for meals and I was busy and I lacked energy. Those were my beliefs. But behind those beliefs was something far more sinister. And it wasn't until I tried to give them up. Do you know it took me a year to properly give up biscuits?

A year. And my wife kept saying, "What is wrong with you?" I remember one time I had, um, I we did our own on call at night and and somebody rang me in the middle of the night and uh, my dad's collapsed. Please come right now. My wife found me in the kitchen eating biscuits. She said, "Why are you not in your car?" And my response to stress, be kind of before I could go, was eating these biscuits. And that was addiction. Only I didn't spot it, 'cause I I justified it myself. Anyway, 14% there is research to show that 14% of the adult population is now addicted to junk food. It affects how your brain is wired. Get my wife on. She'd explain all this to you. It's to do with dopamine, serotonin, all these things.

Yeah. And it gives you so what you get from the junk food is a very brief comfort, but it doesn't last long and then gradually you need more and more of that. Y. And uh, that was me with the biscuits. So why did I eat the biscuits? Because it just gave me that little tiny fix of energy that I needed to face a very difficult situation. But what I hadn't realized was I needed biscuits to face a difficult situation. Whereas 10 years previously, I didn't. And that is how addiction, that's the hook.

It's no different from alcohol, like, "Oh, I need a drink." None at all. Exactly. Or cigarettes. I remember my father was hopelessly addicted to, well, to alcohol to an extent, but cigarettes. And he had to smoke so much to get through a difficult day. Yeah. And he couldn't function. He had a heart attack and and came off cigarettes. But he was a monster to live with because he was without his fix. Yeah. He couldn't function. So this I'm now really interested because in in junk food addiction because it's part of why why are we in this fix? Why are our young people obese? Why are you know, what's going wrong with society? Because you know, when you were young, I would imagine that children with a weight problem were quite rare.

Yeah. And also look, every meal we had, my mom would cook the five of us and we'd have that meal and it would be meat and veg. It would be, I don't know, a roast on a Sunday. But now our lifestyles have changed and I would say three of our, at least three of our meals a week, maybe four. Yes. Is either a takeaway or us going out to dinner. Yes. And going out to dinner is still, it's not as bad as a, you know, ordering a pizza, but it's still kind of a takeaway. There's a luxury there. There's a drink you have with it or a dessert.

And I think the other thing when we were young, snacking was frowned upon. My mother would say, "You're going to spoil your tea." Yes. And so she wouldn't let me snack. We were quite, we didn't, I was only allowed sweets on a Friday night. So I remember after school, uh, we went via the post office. That was once a week. That was it.

Yeah. Fast forward. You, I don't know. You You're too young to have time grandchildren yet, but maybe work in progress, young man. Work in progress. I'm ready. Yeah. But what you'll find when you go to school now is you'll see a third of the children are not. What you saw. Yeah. They're overweight. And what with children, we reward them, don't we? With chocolate bars, with biscuits. Well done. Have a bun. It's Christmas. Have this. It's Easter. Have that. You did well in school today. Think of. And psychologically, if you wanted to train a dog, what would you do? Treats. Exactly. Have lost dogs. Yeah. Only now it's Pavlovian. Children. Think about that. It's so serious.

And so my wife and I have set up two charities. The first one is the public health collaboration where we are worried about the quality of the advice of about around public health. That's our public health collaboration charity. So we have international conferences. There's lots of information. So there's two, that's the first one. What is the quality of the advice that you get if you go online or if you question a healthcare professional? Uh, do you come away from it knowing what to do? Second point is the second charity is the food addiction charity. Hence the thing tomorrow where at the moment, here's the thing. So at the moment in the world, would first of all, a question. Would you say that food addiction seems reasonable to you that there are people in the world eating that know it's harming their health? Is that reasonable?

Well, yes, because I will eat things I know harm my health. So, it's it's reasonable that food addiction to you as a construct, as an idea, sounds kind of, well, it's probably right and you maybe eat stuff you shouldn't. Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's a surprise for you. So, let's think about the World Health Organization and addiction or indeed in my own practice. So, if you come to me with a nicotine addiction, I can offer you help. Alcohol, I can help you. Drugs, I can help you. Food addiction, according to the World Health Organization, does not exist. Therefore, you cannot get help and in fact, you've just invented it. Right? Against this, against this is the fact if you come to me with gambling addiction, where there isn't even a substance, the World Health Organization agrees that gambling addiction exists. So my wife is fighting the World Health Organization. That's what this conference is about. She's publishing. She's got now a consensus on what is food addiction and she's lobbying the World Health Organization. It exists.

That seems kind of insane though that. She has to do that. You would think so. You would have thought if it's the health organization of the world, they would already be on top of. You would think that, wouldn't you? And particularly now when we're saying the fat jabs and you know, and obesity is such a problem and what. So in clinical practice, do you know just about nobody's surprised when I say, "Do you think you could be addicted to some of these foods? Are you eating them despite knowing it's harmful?" And they go, "Yeah." And yet the World Health Organization are going, "But, but, but, but, but, but."

Does that, does that mean you don't trust the World Health Organization? Are they corrupted? Now, that's a big thing. I don't know. I shouldn't say what I don't know. Yeah. But I I I dare say there are reasonably powerful people who do not want uh ultra-processed food addiction to be acknowledged. Well, if you if you are a manufacturer of a fat jab. Yeah. Uh, and making billions of pounds, dollars selling the fat jab, if you don't have a supply of fat people. Yeah. You don't have a market. Exactly. So, and again, uh, there's supermarkets and there's so on and so forth that we have a system which, it's really funny. It makes money out of you. This is sounds awful, really, but we have a system in my opinion that makes money out of you while it makes you fat and then makes money out of you through the medication. As I merely control what's wrong instead of sorting it.

We just, we just went out to Ibiza on holiday as a family. Yeah. And there was a little supermarket near us, equivalent size to say a Tesco's local. Yeah. And they had a butcher in there. Yes. With two butchers working on it. They had a fishmonger in there. They had endless fresh fruit and veg. But I looked at the butcher and the uh, the fishmonger. I thought, we used to have a butcher and a fishmonger at Sainsbury's. When I say Sainsbury's, I'm on about the big superstore near us. Yeah. They don't even have the butcher or the fishmonger anymore. They have they have it packaged on the shelves, but. It's not the same. It's not the same.

I I think. But but can I add to that because I was like, huh, look at this, Connor. Here they have quality food. Look at food. But I think there's another psychological element there in that you would go to the counter, you would look at the big slab of meat and say, "I want three ribeyes and I want, you know, some salmon." But if you're now going to a cabinet and you're buying a packed uh ribeye, you're you're conditioned that everything you buy is in a package. Yes. So there's like a psychological change there.

There are many, many different factors behind this, many, many, but they've all led in one way, which is, you know, the the supermarket is very convenient if the food has a long shelf life. Yes. It's very uh, and then if you were manu, if I wanted to make money, what the way to make money out of making food is you want a shelf, a long shelf life to please the supermarket. You want to package it so you can stack it. You also want to use cheap ingredients. What's cheap ingredients? Well, water's a cheap ingredient. So stick some of that in there, like they do with the bacon. But also sugar is a very cheap ingredient. Yes. Carbohydrate. So wheat flour is very cheap. So protein is never cheap. And so one of the things I'd say is I see a lot of people not getting enough protein. And yet protein is how your son's going to be ripped, isn't it? How do how do you make muscle without eating protein? And many young people, they're having so much sugary drinks, crisps, that they're not actually getting much protein, if you think. So they could have breakfast cereals before you go to school. Sugary and they're like sweets, aren't they? Those breakfast cereals.

Yeah. All of that. And then when you get to school, you might have it. They sometimes have a snack. And then mid-morning a snack. What's your lunch? Sandwiches, that kind of thing, crisps. So you've had sugar with your sugar with your sugar. It's just sugar all day long. And then when you get home, your mom's busy 'cause she's working. So there's your pizza and chips. There's your Domino's. Yeah. So you just had just sugar all day. Where was the protein? Where was the green veg? And of course, children will, if you give them an opportunity, as you know, with your own kids, they will just eat crap. Mhm. And it, you know, your mother disciplined you a little, didn't she? And I bet you weren't allowed your pudding till you'd had your first, or my father was say, "Clearly, you're not hungry, David. So, no second calls." Well, there's been this weird switch as well in that we didn't have a lot of money, so we couldn't afford to have uh cupboards full of snacks and sweets. You know, there might be some biscuits, have a biscuit when I go home from school, but. You know, my mom had to plan to cook. My mother too. Yeah. So, she had to plan to cook seven dinners over the week for five people and breakfast and we probably had cereal at that time, but. But she had to plan for that. It's flipped now. Some people can't afford to cook seven meals from fresh ingredients or they feel like they can't. Yes. And they feel like there's cheaper options which may be processed. It's a trap.

And so funny enough, we've investigated this with my patients because I've done this now so many times and you can do low carb cheaply, but it you do require some cooking skills. Although, let's think, let's think about beef burgers. Have you ever made a beef burger? What? From fresh mince for mince. Yeah, I have. Yeah. All you have to do, how f how you know it's two minutes while you do that and stick it in the pan. That's fast food, isn't it? Mince is cheap. So, you could do beef burgers. Then you could get frozen beans and add some butter to them. So, it's all doable. Yes. I've I've. We're making. Done it. Well, I don't think excuses is right. I I I think we've been very slowly funneled over the years through advertising, through many things uh to forget some very important stuff about like here's a thought, really. The most important things in our lives are our children. They are. They are. All right. He's all right. But you know. Yes. So there you go. So, you know, just a thing. So say you had a really important car, a very, very valuable car, you'd kind of care about the fuel, wouldn't you? Wouldn't put rubbish fuel in something worth $100, £100,000. If the if the person told you, you know, this particular car requires good fuel and you'll have to pay more, you just do it, would you? But have you thought about your son in that way? Because what fuels him, he is what he has eaten. And and really, so the quality of what he eats is one of the major influences on who he will become, you know, and yet we don't think like that, do we? And so you you you're probably in the mindset of the odd treat is okay. But how often is a treat an odd treat? My mother believed it was once a week. Well, it's just not odd anymore. No, it's all day. And is this loving? Is it caring? You know, what what are we doing? And and I used to, I remember with my own children, it was just I didn't think about it. Um, and one of my children ended up being quite heavy. And I realize now I had done that. I had done it as a child, um, with the sugary breakfast cereals. I remember, um, Ribena. She used to love Ribena and she was mad 'cause she said, "You will never make it strong enough, Dad. You're so mean." So I started making it stronger. But what is strong Ribena? It's sugar. And I never thought, I never thought about my responsibility in terms of nutrition to the most important people in my life. Never once occurred to me. Yeah. And I'm a doctor. What's my excuse? I.

It's very important that you don't lose this. Okay. This is your inheritance through Bitcoin. A. Let Bitcoin rip. Don't rip up your Bitcoin. Set up inheritance with Casa. [Music] But we know now. Yes. And we know enough now. Yes. I mean, you know enough now. So So if you're advising somebody. Right now, you're advising me. Yeah. And I say, uh, because it, I don't think the goal is to lose weight. I think the goal is to change your lifestyle. If it's to lose weight, once you hit a spot, you can come back. It's a permanent lifestyle change, right? Yeah. I the mindset is one of my patients explained this so well. So I'll tell you what she said. She said, "A diet is a thing you are on and will come off. A diet is a thing you're doing to look good for your holiday." And this lady told me, she said that this is a lifestyle. It's how you live your life and you have to accept that with, but with it comes lots of good stuff. So will I ever eat Christmas cake ever again? No, I won't. I actually have type two diabetes. I didn't know that I had.

So you don't do you don't have any any little treats here or there? Yes, but they're low carb treats. Okay. So you see, I we have learned. So we've also helped write eight recipe books. Amazing. So, um, with a really lovely London chef called the Caldesies and uh, we helped Gian Carlo reverse his diabetes and uh, he was a very heavy Italian chef on pasta and pizza and all that in Marilleone near here and he contacted me out of the blue and said, "What you do has reversed my diabetes. I don't think you understand food like I do. Let's do a partnership." And I understand food and we've written, I've loved what fun to go out of the world of medicine into doing recipe books. We've done eight and so there you can get, so we can make, so I have eight grandchildren. Um, they're all being brought up low carb from babies. So we can do low carb cakes. My wife can make a low carb Christmas pudding. We can do Christmas parties. All low carb. We've learned how to do it.

But if you're type two diabetic, I understand. I was, mine is in remission. So. But so for example, with lovely Connor over there, are we basically saying goodbye pieces forever or is there a balance that can be struck? There is a balance and and a few. For Yeah. So, I want to give you a new concept. Yeah. I discovered with my patients that it wasn't really their age that mattered. So, the oldest person who I reversed diabetes was 92. Wow. 92 years old. 92. Yeah. But it was worth it because it improved her quality of life 'cause she wanted to live independently in her own home and garden. So, we achieved what she wanted. So, the concept is that you and I, it's not to do with how old you are, it's your metabolic age. Mhm. So because my metabolic age is quite high because I have damaged my metabolism, I have to be very careful. Because I'm full-blown type two diabetes. So I I'm not going to mess with that. It's not worth it because I could lose vision. Stuff can happen. But for Connor, he's metabolically much younger. So he could just start being sensible and going back to a treat occasionally and some alcohol and so on, but not cake every day and more protein.

So, you know, my um, I have two sons. Um, the reason they went low carb was to get ripped because they wanted to be able to look, you know, magnificent and they do. I haven't seen my abs since I was 18. No. Well, they, these boys, they changed and um, remarkably, but they're not as low carb as me. Okay? They don't have to be. For me, I don't know you and you're not my patient, so I can't tell you. I'm your temporary patient for now. As a temporary patient, I would do a blood test on you and find out. Or I tell you what I might do. Have you heard of the these continuous glucose monitors? Yeah. You can just buy and put in your arm. So, are those those little circles? Yes, that's right. So, who was the prime minister that had one of those? I don't know, but I really. Conservative prime minister, type 1 diabetes, wore a little white disc on her arm. Nice lady. Uh, before Johnson. Before Johnson. The lady prime minister. Um, Theresa May. Yeah. Yeah. She has type 1. And she often, you'd see a little white disc on her arm. So that you can now buy on Amazon continuous glucose monitors which gives a signal to your phone continuously of your blood sugar. I've heard with those, you get a little bit shocked with them sometimes, like you can eat a couple of grapes and suddenly. Yeah. Well, um, but yes, but if that's what's happening and if your blood sugar goes into the red, well, maybe you need to know. I wonder if it's worth doing it for a week, but but maintaining your normal diet just so you're aware. Let's find out. So. I I think what's good about you, you're clearly curious. So, I'd say try one of those. Yeah. And see and find out because the truth. Find it out. I didn't till I was, I avoided the truth till I was 10 years older than you and by then I'd done more damage.

So, so this, I mean, there's obviously some planning around the food you keep in the house, how you prepare. Let's just go back to that, really. So what we're doing is. But you're breaking, you're breaking a cycle as well. Yes. Particularly if if there's some ultra-processed food addiction. So what we're saying is start eating whole foods. Yes. So turn the white stuff green. So I have a curry, if you want. Why have the rice? Because that's just adding a pile of sugar. But enjoy your curry, but what about those frozen green beans you've got in the freezer? You could add that or do a stir-fry or whatever. Instead of the chips, you could have. So, I'd say experiment with turning the white stuff green and increasing the protein. So, your breakfast could be scrambled egg and smoked salmon. That's a pile of protein right there. And a good way to start the day. Uh, try that. Or for your son, either instead of the cereals, scrambled egg in a microwave, not going to take you very long. Interesting. So. So definitely, I still come back to there's a there's a certain amount of discipline to it. Like in a day like today, when we are, we have an hour or two between interviews and I'm going to need to eat. It's being aware of what's around here. It's either preparing something to bring with me or or being aware of something around it. Exactly. So, but so people often ask me why, how is it my patients changed their lifestyle? And it all boils down to, are you motivated? And and do you believe this thing could improve your health? Because if you believe this thing would improve your health, you'll do it. You'll find out. You'll experiment. And if then you notice, so I would call you back when you weigh 12 and a half stone. What does that feel like when you put on your jeans? So I weigh, I'm 67 and I weigh, I'm 73 kilos. So that's about 12 stone. Yeah. And I wear my jeans like I'm 67. But that feels good. David, I've still got all the clothes from when I was 12 and a half stone. You could wear them. They're. One of the t-shirts, I couldn't believe how tight it was. I was like, I used to wear this. So I would say, if you believe in a thing, you're clever. You're a man of resources. You'll investigate, experiment, and try plan.

We should pencil in a follow-up in six months and see what happens. Have a have a follow-up. Also discuss it. Do you have a partner? I do. Is this person who does the cooking, who does the shopping? But to be honest, the best person is, we're me and him are together all the time, right? Something we both need to make. Like, are you listening to this and you thinking, "Yeah, whatever, I'm fine," or are you actually thinking, "Ah, maybe I need to." Yeah, there's definitely some changes I could make. But also at the same time, it feels like the way you talk about it as an addiction. If you're addicted to smoking and you want to give up, you can never touch a cigarette again. So if your dad, if he actually is a junk food addict, which you will find out over the next six months if you do it, then abstinence is the only answer. But actually, there's a there is a spectrum of addiction. Some people are what you call harmful users. And um, they can have the odd treat and not derail. I'll give you an example. My wife is a very severe junk food addict. So we did the low carb thing uh in 2012 and then the first Christmas, she thought, "I'll just have one day off. Cheat day." Yeah, a cheat day. She did not recover from that cheat day till May because for her, she her mind was craving what she had and she kept saying, "Monday, I'll do it on Monday." And we had loads of arguments 'cause I'm saying, "What are you doing?" And she got heavier and heavier during that time and also she's very unhappy when she's heavy and I love her. Yeah. So I saw her doing this thing and she's making tray bakes for the kids and why are we doing this? But Connor, you, you could be a junk food addict, probably. Well, it's just a thought. I mean, once what happens is the way we are living because of the dopamine and the other brain substances. Junk food changes the wiring of your brain. Now, Chris van Tulleken did that wonderful experiment for BBC television. Uh, children these days get 60% of their diet from junk food. So Chris van Tulleken for a month ate junk food for 60% of his diet and they did brain scans. It changed the wiring of his brain. Three months later, his the wiring was still not right. Three months after he'd gone back to a whole food diet, he still wanted those junk foods and the brain, when they did the brain scan, was not normal.

Do you believe the companies producing these ultra-high processed foods are designing them and producing them in the way that they know they're making? Absolutely. And there's evidence this has been, this was terrible. It is terrible. It was well documented, I think, by the New York Times. So they have laboratories and they're looking for the bliss point. So when they're making biscuits or whatever, they they have volunteers go in, some of whom get head scans and they're looking for what gets those little lights to go off in your head. What is the bliss point? And they know because the bliss point means you will eat. Well, what's the perfect product? The perfect product is something you buy more than you think you even need. Who can eat one Dorito? You know what I mean, don't you? I mean, I remember there's those other things. Pringles are another one. And who can eat one?

What do we know about Pringles, Connor? It's a whole packet, isn't it? Should you get a tub in the night? Yeah. And. So, he's so cheeky. So, we'll get a We'll get a tub of Pringles. Connor will get a tub of Pringles. Yeah. And he'll eat 85% and then leave just a few at the bottom. That's also a lie. He's speaking like an addict. He is. Yeah, he probably is. So, but it's called the bliss point. They know they. Now, let me tell you something else. So medicine in the world took 30 years to realize that smoking killed. 30 years. One of the senior partners before me in the practice used to recommend cigarettes for anxiety for his patients. So he he smoked Marlboros and I still have patients now who say, "I started smoking because this particular doctor said, try one of these." Doctors did not know that cigarettes caused cancer for 30 years. However, the writing was on the wall for a long time and the companies making the cigarettes caused confusion and ridiculed the doctors who were saying this kills. They were ridiculed. There was all sorts of, yes, you don't understand the detail. And they found experts who said it's not that bad. But before they knew that the tide was going out on nicotine and they started using their expertise in advertising in all of these things into things like breakfast cereals and they moved. And now those same expertise, why are the breakfast cereals for children full of little plastic this, that, and the other for Pester Power? Why did you know why did I go getting Happy Meals all the time for my kids? Because they went on and on about the little plastic. They knew. Yeah. And the same expertise went across into junk food. And that's what we're fighting now. They they got rid of. It's funny. They got. You You never had a time where you had the cereals with the little toy inside, did you? So it was a whole thing.

Do you even remember it, cut? Yeah. So you'd get your Cocoa Pops and you would open it and within the actual Cocoa Pops, somewhere in there, there would be a toy. Yeah. We used to search. My brother and I were like. Yeah. Put your grubby hands in, like fight through it and you'd find a little toy. And it was like, you know, like a Kinder egg. It's a little toy like that. But every week when you did the shopping and if I would go with my mom, I would be looking up which which had the toy I wanted and then I would get home. That's all I would think about is getting that toy. Yeah. His crew as well. They abandoned eventually. They did. But you, by then, by then maybe you were already addicted. Yeah. And so they've used their immense experience. Amen. I mean, what resources do I have? None. Yeah. What resources do they have? Oh, gazillions. I don't even know. Um, but we're now, this is all coming to fruition. And you see it in the streets. You see it everywhere. Think about buying petrol. Just look around in there. It's all addictive. It's all junk. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to vape? Do you want to smoke? Do you want to buy alcohol, pornography, or chocolate bars? It's all there. Yeah. So, if you were addicted to any of those things, it's quite, you're running a a real. A gauntlet just to pay for your petrol. God. Because otherwise, you're reaching, aren't you, for the cream egg? Yeah. And yes, I'll. Yeah. I'll usually pay for the petrol, get a coffee and a packet of biscuits. Exactly. You have. So you can see what I'm saying is kind of reasonable and we've set up a perfect storm. Yeah. If if you want obesity to be the national problem and then to suggest that spending huge amounts of money on fat jabs as the answer when what we should be doing, I mean, there's been wonderful experience in Northland where they for a little while, they didn't allow planning permission for takeaways in an area. They just didn't. Whereas another area, they let it go and then they monitored the effect on obesity and children because every time you give planning permission for a tuck shop or a pizza place or whatever, you're affecting the health of the local population. We've known that for a while. Who do you think eats all this stuff?

Uh, so I I own a little coffee shop and we sell cakes. Yeah. And we've also just taken a lease on a new building to open a pizza restaurant. Feel like I'm a drug dealer now. Uh, you might be. You might be. And I I just, you know, but you're only doing what everybody else does, so I don't judge you. And I'm not sure you'd thought about all of this before I came. No, I hadn't. And I also think a pizza restaurant. Pizza's not going to leave my life for now. For now. I might, I believe I could fundamentally change my diet, see you in six months, and be in much better shape than having had pizza. Yeah. So that's the challenge. So what I do, if you were my patient. I'm not an expert in you. You are. Yeah. If you succeed, reflect on how that feels and do more of it. If you succeed and then fail, one of the most important things about failure is to learn, you know, and you'd say to Connor, he's going to make mistakes. Yeah. Don't beat yourself up, but don't do it again. Yeah. And I'm an old guy and and I like to think I've got experience and I've learned from my mistakes. So if you do it in a success, I'm proud of you. Really well done. If you do it is a success, but then you have a holiday or Christmas and it all goes wrong. Why? Why? And then you need to do things differently. And I have patients. And I can give you one example. It's probably coming towards the end of this chat. But let me leave you with this. This patient has consented for me to share this with the world. So this person has, um, poorly controlled diabetes and he knows that bread is giving him really major health problems and his wife knows too. So she was in the habit of putting detergent, washing up liquid on any crusts that were in the bin because he would get up in the night and eat those crusts. But you know what? He would eat the crusts even with the detergent on. And the only thing that would stop him. So his wife came up with the idea of spray bleach. And if she would leave the spray bleach on the side so that if he did get up in the night, he didn't even try it because she'd already gone through the bin with the bleach. And that was the only thing that would stop that person. And that person struggles and struggles and struggles. And that is a very painful process for him. Really painful because he's a highly intelligent person. And this threatens his way of life. Yeah. And very serious. And he consented in a way. It was very kind of him because it, it gives you a perfect, helps you understand that for this is a successful person in every other way.

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Look, it's it's a really embarrassing thing to admit, but I my habit, my worst habit. Is I can wake up at 3 in the morning really hungry and go and make like a cheese toastie. Simple. That is worrying. Yeah. That is worrying. But I I sometimes think I I almost don't even know I'm doing it. You won't. Yeah. But I'm conscious. Yeah. But but it's it it feels like autopilot. Yes. My wife says she said it's like your disembodied hand is reaching inside the fridge and you're looking at it thinking, "What? Why?" But you can't stop it. It used to be worse. There were times I'd go downstairs and just like get a like like it was terrible. He had a handful of Maltesers and just stuffed my face. But didn't I wasn't fully conscious I was doing it. Like I was, I knew I was doing it, but I wasn't aware 'cause I like during most of the day I can be pretty good. Yeah. But you see that worries me and you. Yes. Because the other thing is habits are very powerful. Yeah. So one of the reasons you shouldn't cheat. So do you think about brushing your teeth? No, you don't. And there's a book isn't there on this about habits. My wife would always say it's easy to maintain a habit. So I am in the habit of being always low carb. So I don't have to worry or think about what what I'm going to eat because it's not going to be bread. But you see, you've got a habit there that's quite difficult. And if you cheat occasionally, that little light will come on on your head. And we're hungry through habit. It's a habit. So, I only eat twice a day or once a day. I haven't eaten breakfast for years. I don't need to. I've kind of just cut it out. I'd rather lie in bed. Um, and my habit is to not eat until lunchtime. Today, I haven't eaten a particle of food. What about what about things like coffee, cappuccinos, and? Well, I've I've enjoyed that was a delicious. Thank you. But do you worry about milks and cheeses? Um, well, now for me, a latte, because I have type 2 diabetes, a latte will double my blood sugar. So, I've worn the continuous glucose monitors and that if I had one recently because I was too embarrassed. I did um, I did a speech for all of the pediatricians, consultant pediatricians in Merseyside and somebody very kindly brought me a latte and I was too polite to say, "I I don't drink that." I drank it. On the way back, I knew my blood sugar was crazy and it doubled with the milk in the latte. That's how damaged my metabolism is. I can't even drink milk. Right? I couldn't eat an apple. I couldn't eat a quarter of an apple because it would put my blood sugar up. And alcohol is just a no for you, I assume. No, actually it isn't. And the good news. The good news for you and me, um, is uh, yeah, so dry white wine and dry red wine, I do drink alcohol. I have to be careful because I can become addicted to that too. And so I have to I have to keep it under control, otherwise I start looking forward to it too much. Yes. Like today's the day I'm going to drink. Don't know whether you've ever felt like that. I'm so happy. Today's the day I'm going to have a drink. So, I've discovered that if I if I drink, if I don't allow myself to drink more than once a week, I don't get that sort of cheaty feeling and I can control it. Uh, if I drink too often, or holidays are very dangerous 'cause I get into a drinking every day habit and then it's terrible. Lunchtime when you get, you know, you come back and I'm running a surgery and about one o'clock, I could just murder a gin and tonic. That's terrible, isn't it? It is. Yeah. So, I I now I'm aware of it as a danger and I'm more in touch with the voices. Again, back to me at 55, I didn't hear any of the messages my body was trying to give me. I was deaf to what my brain was telling me. And then when I cut out junk food, I could tell what was a good day and a bad day and I was chasing those good days. Yeah. Because I love the sharpness. And if you look at me now, you can see I have every bit as much energy as I had when I started. And I could do this for hours. I have a lot of stamina. A lot. I'm flagging. And you're flagging. I'm flagging. I can tell just to look at you running out. You're flagging and I'm not. And why is that? Why is that? Because I want a burger. Yeah, but it. No, it's slightly more interesting than that if you have a moment. Do you remember me saying you're a dual fuel engine? The brain slightly prefers fat as fuel. Okay. M. Yeah. So, and because I I'm burning fat, so I'm in ketosis, I've got thousands of calories of fat on me, so I can burn my fat now. And whether I eat now or tonight, tomorrow morning makes no difference to my energy. Mine's burning the bagel. Yours Yours is gone now. Yeah. And you're on the way down because uh, you're relying on carbohydrate. M. I am not relying on carbohydrate because I haven't, I don't have much. I'm I'm burning fat. And one of the world experts who's coming tomorrow and you could really do to meet her is Dr. George Reed and she's a world-famous psychiatrist and she specializes in nutritional psychiatry. How do we use food for mental health? She's a close friend of mine. She is to the world of psychiatry, what I am to type two diabetes. And she's come all the way from America to talk at our conference because she wants people to know how your brain could be better burning fat. And there are RCTs going on now, special studies in Edinburgh University on bipolar disorder, which is being helped by the keto diet. It's the world of nutrition is waking up. M. People all over the world are thinking about food in a very different way.

Do you have any questions, Con? Nothing you want to ask. Where's the bleach? Huh? Where's the bleach? Oh, did you need it? Yeah, you may need it. He, uh, yesterday he was like, "Dad, when did you have those crumpets?" There was two crumpets. I was, I can't remember. I knew when I had them about 3 in the morning. I used to eat, I used to eat my children's Easter eggs like a monster. That's lovely. But yes, like a monster. And they, Dad, he is a monster. You're right. I know. But they would hide them and I would in the night, I'm like, "Where are they? I know they're here somewhere." And so he, he's had stuff and then first thing in the morning gone to the shop and replaced it. Yeah. I'll go to the shop and replace it. Because you feel so bad, don't you? Like Easter eggs. It's your own children. And uh, so I've done that. And do you know that has been so interesting. I think it was really good that you rep. It's funny how we start off almost like a role play. Yeah. But actually becomes very genuine. No, it's I mean, it's all very real and. Yeah. I'm not a, I'm not a granddad yet. I'd like to be one day soon, hopefully. But uh, um. Have me back in six months and have an experiment and reflect with me. Yeah, reflect with me. I'll take you through the next thing. This is what I do with patients. So it, it finishes now and I say, right, so what you going to do? So, this is what I, how I'd finish with a patient. I'd say, "So, what specific changes can you commit to right now?" Uh, changing the makeup of our fridge. Yes. Easily. Yeah. And uh, just making my meals myself. Just. Making your meals yourself. So, you're going to commit to that. We're going to shake on it. Yes. We're on it. We're on it. Okay. We'll check six months in the. We'll put it in. That's how I leave it. And then when I see you next time, I would write in the notes that's what you've done. And then I ask, "How did."

it go?"

"Not in a judgmental way because you cannot fail."

"Yeah."

"You're just learning about yourself."

"And if you can, if you can understand your own physiology and your own psychology better, wouldn't that be great? If you understood the engine that you have."

"So, so I'm using power. I'm using myself as the lens for anyone listening who feels similar. But if if if someone's listening now and they're like, 'Yeah, okay. I need to think about this more.' Is there any resources you would"

"There are loads."

"Yeah. Uh, so one of the things is please follow me on Twitter. So I'm low carb GP on Twitter. I've got a 100,000 followers. I'm showing all the time. Where are the conferences? Where's the things? If you want an app, a free app. So my work has been taken on by the wonderful Freshwell practice, an NHS practice, and they have designed a free app you can download on your phone, and it's called the Freshwell app. Free. So, we're not making money out of any of this. The Freshwell app, download it on your phone. Um, you can go I set up with there were 16 of us clinicians worried by public health and we set up a charity, the public health collaboration. And that website, which uh you've got up there somewhere, has got resources, diet sheets for you to look at, recipes, that kind of thing. M"

"you could you could look on there."

"Well, we we'll share that all in the show."

"Oh, I've got one important one, a final one."

"Uh my wife wrote a book called Fork in the Road published on Amazon. It's not for profit. All of the profit goes to those two charities. I've told every penny, we haven't made any money out of what we do. But she has written a self-published book called Fork in the Road, which you can download from Amazon or Kindle. So if you go off the rails and she said, 'I've written the book I wish I'd read when I was 16 because she spent all her life as a food addict as a consultant psychologist not understanding her own behavior.' And if you get in a pickle in the next few months, you could buy that book and read it"

"and uh you would learn a great deal. And I think that's probably I've got other stuff, but that's enough."

"We'll put that in the show notes. I mean, this has been quite an indulgent episode for me because I've I've allowed it to be about me. But I do look I know I won't be alone. So hopefully other people have got benefits from it and we should let's get together in six months."

"See other things I you know just there's so many things I' I would like to talk about dyslexia."

"Yes."

"I'd love to do that uh because I have dyslexia quite badly and many members of my family and that's an interesting topic. I run 40 acres of bird reserve and so I'm really interested in biodiversity and sustainable agriculture. Mhm."

"And if you're going to suggest a diet, who's going to grow it? And it has to be sustainable. So that's kind of interesting, too. And and so literally, I've got land and we're we're producing food. So that' be another end. I've got loads. I could go on and on."

"Well, hopefully we won't have to talk about low carb too much next time because I'll be here. I'll be looking all"

"we could do as a consultation that the world can see how you're doing. Yeah. What I would say is what you should do today is honestly get Connor to measure your waist."

"Yes."

"Get him to do it with a tape measure at the fattest."

"Yes."

"And don't make your waist small. The other thing I would say is what if today was the fattest you're going to be."

"The other thing is take a private photo of yourself honestly in front of a mirror as you are. And if what you do works, you'll be proud to show me a before and after."

"Yeah."

"Because And that would be very good in terms of psychology because you would see the evidence of exactly how you are."

"Yeah."

"And then you can com and that would help motivate you. Then if you felt the Doritos are calling to me, you get out your photo and think that is not me and I've got patients. Some of my patients have lost 10 stone in weight, 11 stone. Some of them we don't even know how much weight they've lost because they were too heavy to weigh at the beginning. Too heavy to weigh."

"I thought you can get those things where you weigh elephants."

"Not in the on the NHS. I All what I did with them is I just measured their waist circumference and waited for them to become weighable. That happens at 150 kilos."

"Well, thank you. I'm not there. Okay. I feel determined."

"Good."

"Connor, you're going to have to support me on this, boy. Uh, thank you. It was very indulgent of me, but um"

"it's just where it went. I was I loved that because I had no idea where it was going. And it's fun because it's original."

"Well, people I have a uh two to three times a week I am released onto YouTube. So hopefully people will see some kind of progression. But let's do it. 6 months. I'm committed now. Let's do it."

"Yeah. The world is watching."

"Let's go. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening."

"Fat Pete No more. We'll see you soon. Bye. [Music]"