Transcription
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
Well, hey team healthy. I have a special treat for us here today. You know that I like to find people who are speaking into all sorts of issues on our topic of narcissism, and there are so many different dimensions that we watch for. Today, I have, all the way from the state of Connecticut, Dr. Christine Coola. And, uh, I'm so pleased, Dr. Coola, Dr. C, one Dr. C to another, uh, that you're with us here. And tell us about what you do. You're, uh, you're, uh, you do a lot of teaching, you do a lot of writing and consulting in the whole issue of domestic abuse and, uh, and domestic violence, and then specifically related, obviously, to the topic of narcissism. So tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and what kind of things, uh, you have going on in your world.
Thank you, Dr. C, for having me here today. I'm so honored to be in your presence, honestly. Um, thank you so much. So, yeah, I mean, I started off doing this work at the age of 19 as a social justice advocate. I've been a domestic abuse, sexual assault crisis, and child abuse interventionist my entire career. Um, but I did not know that I was in an abusive relationship. And it's interesting because, you know, I teach on this topic every single semester in my college social work classes, and I, I just didn't see the signs. And I think that's because we often look through the violent incident model. We're looking for physical violence to determine if somebody is a victim of abuse or not. And the reality is is that abuse is about power and control. It's about power over having, you know, power and control over somebody and diminishing them. And, um, so, yeah, so that's what brought me to this work. But again, I've been doing it my entire career. I just didn't realize I was a victim. Let's, I mean, that's the reality. I didn't realize that I had suffered the same exact abuse that I was helping people in their own lives with. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, have been doing therapy for years with people, helping them navigate their relationships, yet didn't realize what I was experiencing in my own home.
You know, obviously, as one therapist to another, yeah, every decade that goes by, you just learn a little bit more, don't you? Uh, I can look back when I was in my 20s and actually, I, I, I actually thought I knew pretty much everything. And, uh, I, I didn't know a whole lot of what I didn't know. And, and each decade goes by, you get layers upon layers of your learning that, uh, that come about. And, um, much of what we do is an extension of what we've experienced in our own personal lives. We're human too. And so, I frankly, I think it's great that you're willing to step in and say, you know, I've, I've been somebody who's been there, done that. And then what it does is it just magnifies your commitment to understanding this in the fullest kind of way.
Um, so, um, let, let's go into that term, coercive control. Um, you, you talk about, um, how domestic abuse is all about dominance and control and power. Uh, so when you use that term, coercive control, what are you, what are you watching for?
Yeah, so I, I think of coercive control as a foundation of virtually every kind of abuse. When we think about people engaged in cults, when we think about people who oppress groups of people, like, you know, racism, sexism, etc., it's about having power over someone. When it happens behind closed doors, in somebody's house, it's intimate partner abuse or domestic abuse, right? And so it's about one person exerting this power and control over another, diminishing their autonomy or their agency, consistently pushing boundaries so that someone almost, in some ways, begins to forget who they really are anymore. And, um, so it's certainly the psychological tactics that are used, like gaslighting and manipulation and intimidation and isolation. But what we know really clearly is it's the foundation of all domestic abuse. And in that, when people leave the relationship, it intensifies because, you know, so well, the, the character traits of a narcissist, right? That that when someone has decided to disengage, there's more anger, right? And there's a need for revenge. And so that, "How dare you?" Exactly. And so that really plays over into the legal system, financially, it impacts people, it impacts people certainly with the weaponization of children in the process. So it's like a, it's, it's like it permeates every aspect of someone's life while they're living in it. But then when they leave, it's even more so intensified.
Um, so very re, very recently, I spoke with a woman who, she had been divorced very recently after like a 30, 40-year marriage. And one of the things she was saying was, "Well, we have all the court papers signed, we have all of the the documentation, it's, it's there, it's delivered. But now he won't work with the financial people. And, uh, apparently he's taking money and put it into a different account." And, and just exactly what you're saying. So it's like, can't this thing just be over? And I guess you're saying it, it can be the gift that keeps on giving in that proverbial sense.
Yeah, escape is elusive. I like to say. And, you know, you started off with saying that I'm sharing a little bit of my story. The reason why I share is because how many people share their stories, and they're so unbelievable. You know, these stories are so unbelievable that it's hard for people to actually believe that someone could actually behave this harmful to another human being. And then it's someone you love, right? Like, someone you love is treating you this way. So even the most astute of us miss the signs.
Well, one, one of the things I'm kind of picking up on what you're talking about in your situation is there must have been a lot of the passive-aggressive forms of anger. In fact, years ago, U, there was a magazine that asked me to write an article on the passive-aggressive person. And so I entitled it, "The Passive-Aggressive Always Wins." And I mean, just the title kind of says so much of what we need to know. Um, how can coercive control dovetail with passive-aggressive tendencies? What do you notice there?
Yeah, I mean, I think that in general, coercive controllers do not want to. So, what I say is, not all, like, narcissists are coercive controllers, but all coercive controllers have this pathology of narcissism, right? In that it's about manipulating other people and leveling up. It's about creating one person who always has power over, even if they're allowing the other person to think like they have more power, right? It's about, again, the significant manipulation in the relationship dynamics. So it might be in front of, say, a parent, "Your mom is such a good cook." But then behind her back, saying something like, "It's too bad your mom doesn't cook your favorite foods anymore." Yeah, yeah.
So, and just one of the things you mentioned right there at the beginning, too, is that they, they'll diminish you and elevate themselves in the process. Um, what would be some examples of things that you've seen with the people that you've worked with and consulted with that would be indicators of that?
Yeah, yeah. So, um, I think one of, what we know about these people is they tend to get everybody involved in their false narrative. Right? So that's that whole concept of DARVO, like they deny what they've done, they attack, and they reverse victim and offender. So often times, these abusers are going to be victims to their children. "Oh, your mom left us and she took all the family's money," or "Your mother never really loved us." Right? So it's about imploring this sympathy from a child, by the way, which is just so, like, unhealthy. Right? But also doing it with everyone else in the world. You know, they'll reach out to pediatricians and to the school personnel and act like they're so forlorn and overwhelmed by the loss of the relationship, when actually they're the cause of the loss of the relationship. And they will deny and reverse the victim and the offender. They are the offender. Yeah, yeah.
Would, would you, because I've used DARVO by myself before, would you just go over that real quickly again so our audience can understand what we're, what we're talking about?
DARVO. D-A-R-V-O. Jennifer Freyd came up with the concept back in the early 90s, '97. What is really remarkable about the concept is that she came up with it in relationship to children who are child abuse victims, and how often when they would finally disclose, the abuser would actually blame the child, and it would shut down the child. The child was no longer disclosed, right? Really heartbreaking. And so now we're applying it, and we're seeing that this happens all the time in the judicial system, where these perpetrators will claim that they are victims instead of actually. And then what happens is they're believed because, you know, sadly, um, there's a world of believing certain people over certain people. You know, I mean, it's just the way the system works. We don't always believe victims. Um, yeah, and then particularly if you can get a person that's especially charming and all like that, it just is all the more okay.
Um, now, one of the things, and by the way, you would have no way of knowing this, but I did some volunteer work for a women's shelter for about six or seven years, cooking breakfast and stuff like that. Thoroughly enjoyed doing it. Um, but one of the things that, uh, that we know when we enter into that space, and and women have been on the receiving end of the abuse, is, um, there tends to be a lot of isolation that happens. Now, uh, again, sometimes it's very blatant and obvious, and other times it's more subtle. Um, what do you notice along the lines with respect to that abuser isolating the one who's being, uh, being victimized?
Sure. So I think that's a, that's a significant strategy that's used. And it's going to be something that's used in, again, like, maybe this passive-aggressive way, right? Like, "Oh, you don't want to really go out with your friends? Don't you miss me a lot?" Or, or maybe something like, "I heard your friends talking about you last time we were together. I don't think that they're as close to you as you think they are." So diminishing those relationships and creating the space for the victim to be more and more alone. I think it's really important to highlight this, though. And that is that we have this idea in our head that people who become victims of coercive control, of narcissistic abuse, are people who maybe are living in situations where they're not educated, where they maybe don't have, you know, a wonderful career. And what I hear over and over again, Dr. C, is that frankly, these are people who are highly successful in their lives, who have wonderful careers, who have robust lives outside of the family system, but they don't have it in the family system. And, and thankfully, they do have that. But I guess the point is, is that this can happen to anyone. This is not like just people who are living in poverty, or we used to have that view. It had to be physically violent, it had to be lived in poverty, you were uneducated. That is not true. It happens across, as Dr. Evan Stark states, who actually propelled the term, it happens across time and space in an individual's life. It doesn't just end when the relationship ends. It continues, and it happens across all of your spaces. And so, um, these people are extremely adept at creating isolation, even if someone has a full life at work. They are extremely adept at doing it.
Yeah, and, and the isolation may not always be physical isolation. Sometimes it is. But what I'm hearing you say is sometimes it can be far more subtle than that. Isolation in the sense that you, you, you train that person not to trust other people. You know, "Well, your sister told me," or, "You think this person's your friend, but..." And so there's put, that's the gaslighting, of course. They put doubt in your mind, and then it, it disrupts the connection that you have with other individuals, right? The idea is to diminish your connections so that you feel less in control. And if you feel less in control, then who has the control? The coercive controller has more control over you. And that's the goal.
As you know, one, one of the things that I notice, I mean, it's just pretty close to 100% when, when you have that coercive controlling person, uh, they, they have in their minds what I refer to as the agenda, capital T, capital A, the agenda. There's a certain way things are supposed to be. And, and I have a term for that, I call it imperative thinking. Um, and the implication is, um, "I need you to start filtering your way of thinking through my agenda." "No, that's not the way it was," or "You didn't read that correctly," or "You didn't do this right, because it's supposed to be this, and it shouldn't have been that." When you talk with individuals who are on the receiving end of that, how significant of a factor would you say that is?
Oh, gosh, I would say that's so significant. One of my, my, um, major, I know you'll appreciate this, but I use schema theory a lot. And when I'm working with clients, the schema theory, and this idea of most victims and survivors, you know, are suffering from significant subjugation, right? And in that, they are no longer able to actually, um, see clearly where their boundaries are, where someone begins and where someone ends. And to your point, that is exactly what this coercive control or narcissistic abuse wants. This, this person wants people to have a lot of self-doubt and to question themselves and to be continually trying to fix or make things better in the relationship because if I can accuse you of the relationship not being stable, if I can say it's because of you, and you're a person who wants to, you're subjugated and you want very much to accommodate, you're just going to work harder. You're just going to keep working harder. And I, I see this often times with children. So I don't like to say that protective parents gaslight their children, but in reality, if you're living in a very toxic environment, you, as a protective parent, are going to want your kids to think everything's okay, even if it's not okay. So, as you know, gaslighting has a malicious intent. I call it intuition disintegration. We almost, the coercive controller's goal is to make you not feel your intuition. Is to not have a great way of putting it. Yeah. And then what they, what we do as protective parents is we almost disintegrate our children's intuition because we're also pretending everything's okay. We're trying to walk around on eggshells, making sure everybody's happy. And in that, the children think things are okay, even if their body is telling them otherwise. And then we wonder why children don't get it, why they don't see it clearly, because we have been participating in that disintegration of their intuition. Not malicious at all. We've been doing that.
Is such a necessary insight. Um, okay, so let, let's say you're the mom, and more often than not, I guess it's going to be the mom, uh, in this role, um, and you know that the kids are struggling because they're trying to come to terms with, you know, what's going on with Dad and what's going on with Mom and why do they not get along and why am I feeling so confused? How direct should you be? Uh, in, of course, obviously, it a lot hinges on the age. I mean, you talk differently to a six-year-old than you do to a 17-year-old. But, uh, what are your thoughts there?
So I think it's very tricky, to your point, especially when we have like family court involved, right? Because you're not really supposed to bring the children into the dynamic at all, even though they are in it. Let's be honest, they're in it, right? But I think what we can do is we can use lots of really great exterior examples. We can talk about somebody at work who maybe took our parking spot twice in a row and crossed our boundary, and how that was not healthy, right? Or that was not appropriate. We can talk about toxic relationships that maybe we've had with a friend or somebody on the playground who's bullying a child, and we can explain to them what fight is like, what that trauma response is. I love to give children the psychoeducation about all of these concepts outside of the parental subsystem, so that that way, when they begin to see it and acknowledge it in the parental subsystem, they can name it. Yeah, words not unfamiliar with it. Yeah.
And so, it's, it's challenging, though. I have a five-year-old granddaughter, and I'm, I'm being very deliberate in books that I buy for her about how to make choices and things like that. And it's all part of laying a foundation because she loves to read with Pops, and of course, I eat that up. But, but kids need to to learn that, you know, you have your own separate self, and you can, you can do that. I want to ask you a question. Um, excuse me, a little bit of the respiratory stuff still hanging on with me there. Um, one of the things that I will tell parents is, you don't have to completely ignore the differences between yourself and the other parent. And by that, I mean, the, the child may say something like, "Well, um, I didn't like it when Daddy was yelling," or "Daddy didn't want me to do this." And all, rather than saying, "Oh, they're there, that's okay," because it's not. One of the things I would encourage parents, without dissing the other parent, is that say, "Well, why don't we just agree that when it's you and me, that we'll have our own preferences that we go with? If you have something you want to talk with me about, let's do that. Or if there's something that I've said that seems confusing, go ahead and call me out on that. And between you and me, that's what we're going to do." And so you just bring it down into that narrow focus. You're not saying, "Well, that other person's a jerk, they do that to me too." I mean, would you see that there would be that in-between style of communication to?
I think it's a tightrope, but I do totally coach all of my protective parents on that. We can give them clarity without disparaging the other person. We can validate their experiences. Like, instead of saying, um, "You know, Dad maybe didn't show up for the second visit." Let's just say, "Second time Dad didn't show up, and the child might be hurt by that." Instead of saying, "You know what? Daddy's really busy and he's working hard, honey, and I'm sure he's very sorry. He loves you very much." No, right? You're just being an enabler. No. How about just having clarity? "I'm really sorry that that hurt you, sweetheart. But Mommy is right here with you, and we're going to go to, we're going to go do, we're going to go to the park." Or, "Mommy right here." Validate their experience. And I think that that's what ends up happening when we're living in this gaslit world as an adult. There's an elephant in the room that nobody's talking about, and we're teaching our children to walk, walk around this elephant. Yeah. And that's that intuition disintegration I was talking about, right? And so what we have to do is address the elephant without actually saying it's the elephant, but we can address the elephant. And, um, we do a big disservice to our children when they are growing up in these homes. They know something is wrong. They can feel it in you. This is why we know research is showing us over and over again that children who grow up are not witnesses to or exposed to domestic abuse, but they are actually somatically experiencing everything. They have their own sense of participation in it.
Absolutely. Okay, so this brings up a very interesting question. I, I'll have people say, "Well, I just don't believe in divorce." And it's like, well, listen to some of the stories I hear, maybe you'll think a little bit differently. I mean, not that it's a wonderful thing, because it's not. Um, is there a time when you can say, or or maybe, and of course, that the line's going to be different from with one person to the next, where it's like, you know, we need to get apart from each other, uh, for my sake, for that other person's sake, and especially for our kids' sake? What kind of criteria do you look for that might lead us down that that path?
So I think that it's always unhealthy to live in a toxic relationship. But a lot of women and victims will just say, "Victim, stay." Because it feels safer to stay. You know, that these abusers will pull you back into the relationship with their love bombing, and, you know, with threats, right? Intimidation, etc. Sole of abuse, you're referring to? Absolutely, absolutely. So I think that, um, escape is elusive. And when you leave, you have to know that it's probably going to get worse. We know victims are most at risk for for death when they leave, which is just really startling. There was a research study out of, um, California, and a fifth of victims were murdered within two days of leaving, of getting a restraining order. That's when there that's what we tell victims to do. These victims did it. 231 victims, a fifth of them were murdered within two days. So this is an epidemic that we're not really talking about. And coercive control is the foundation of it all. When we look at domestic abuse homicides, 92 to 94% of them had coercive control as the underlying foundation of it. So this is really what it is. Right? And so I would say that the one thing that we can hold on to is that if we leave, we give, if we escape, I should say, we give our children the gift of perspective. We give them insight on what it can feel like to not live in that environment. And so I never judge anyone for staying because I have many clients who are still in the relationships because of their fears. But the reality is is that if you can, if you feel like you can, you give your child that gift of perspective, which is so vital to their understanding what they should tolerate in their own lives versus what they have been tolerating without even knowing it in this family system.
Mentioned isolation, um, little bit in back. Um, one of the things that the kid can feel is isolation. "I don't know if I can say things, and I don't know if it's safe." And so part of the healing that you can, uh, help, uh, engender with the child is to, uh, to bridge that gap. And as you're making adjustments, it's like, you know, I, I think in the next weeks and months, and maybe even years ahead, there's going to be some things that I'm going to do differently now, or I'm going to emphasize differently. And you might say, "One or two, what about you? What kind of things would you like to do differently?" Would that be a good way to try to rebuild some of those bridges back to the heart and allow them to feel more of that freedom to talk?
Absolutely. I, I think I mentioned I have a protective parenting program. And the whole purpose of it is that I believe the best therapists for our children are their protective parents. We have so much influence in the days in our home when we're with our children that we can help to give them clarity. We can help them feel safe. We can help to give them the discernment between what's healthy and unhealthy. It, this takes work, as you know, as any parenting job does. But these are kids who really, when we are able to separate ourselves and give them that clarity, they're going to have safer boundaries. They're going to really know going forward what to look for in a healthy relationship versus an unhealthy relationship. And I think that, you know, that's like, that's such a gift in and of itself. Never mind that our home is going to be different. We're not going to be an authoritarian parent or a laissez-faire parent. We're going to be that authoritative parent that gives our children routine and boundaries and structure and unconditional love. One of the things that I think children always know is they know that abusive parent does not love them unconditionally. They know that at their core. Yet we're consistently saying to them, "Oh, your dad loves you so much," or "Oh, he wants to see you." That's mixed messaging. You don't have to. You don't have to. I always say to my protective parents, you don't have to elevate the abuser. You don't disparage them, but you don't have to elevate them. But what we do have to do is elevate ourselves and their lives.
You know, the, the person who, in that teaching kind of mode towards other kids, has kind of a, that fine balancing act because, you know, that for years, that person's been suppressing, suppressing, and suppressing. And so it's finally like, you know what, I'm tired of holding all this stuff in. And sometimes it wants to come out like a big gush. Uh, but to your point, but I don't want to gush all over that child or other individuals who may not be the the appropriate recipient of my emotion. And so, uh, there's, you want to have a sense of freedom, but you also want to have a sense of restraint and discernment and wisdom. And simple as that may be for the two Dr. C's to sit here and talk about, well, it's, uh, it's, it's not just simply because the emotion wants to be processed. The trauma, there's so much trauma in all of this. And oftentimes, our children are role-modeling some of the behaviors they learned in that, that family system, and they're triggering us, right? And so that is, that is a very tricky thing. It takes a lot of work.
I agree with you. You mentioned a few, a few minutes ago that some women, for whatever reason, don't leave the relationship, at least not right away. And I, I'm with you, I don't judge because I, I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all kind of solution. So let's suppose that you're in a relationship and you realize this is not healthy, and it's not really good for me or the people that are attached to, to me, but right now is not the time. At at a point like that, then what kind of coping mechanisms can they aim toward that'll at least allow them to keep their head above water?
Yeah, I think it's so important to reach out to support services, right? And to make sure that you have, I call them protective parts. Gather all those people around you that can love you and give you support implicitly and unconditionally. I think it's also really important to create some boundaries within the family system, right? So maybe that means that there are certain things you're not going to tolerate, and that you're going to call them out, which is very different, and the abuser is not going to like that, by the way. That's going to make the abuser angrier. But if you can call out those behaviors so your children see, and they make, when they're yelling, for example, or cursing, or name-calling, down, "Oh, your mother, she's so dumb." Right? Okay. Um, you know what? Please don't call me dumb. You know? So like calling out the behaviors without creating, um, the need for a defensive fight about it, right? It's not about defending yourself. It's just saying, "Please don't call me that name." And then leaving the space, disengaging from the abuser, because as you know, they love it when we engage, right? So, oh, they, they, they're almost begging for it. Yeah.
One of the things, and, and this is a real skill, uh, and it's not easy to master, but once you get there, it's like, oh, this feels so cool. Um, for example, if somebody says, "Les Carter, I think you're the biggest idiot and that you're stupid, but on top of it, you're ugly as well." And so I might say something like, "Well, that's, that's your perspective." Or, or I might say something like, "Um, I know you think that way. I, I think differently." Yeah. And just, uh, remain steady, remain calm. And it's like, if you think that, uh, calling me names or things like that is going to bother me, I'm comfortable enough in my own skin. And, and, and I'm, I'm going to go ahead and stay in that. And, and you may be as disregulated as you want with respect to your thoughts about me, but I'm going to go ahead and, and vote yes for me. That's hard because you're so, you have a history of defending or retreating, and all of that. Is that, is that something that you see that people can, can get to the point of learning and, and leaning into specifically?
I ask my protective parents to come up with the ways, the things, the top things the abuser will say to them, because they have a pattern, you know, they have a pattern. Oh, yeah. So what is that? What are the things that they pick on you about? Your vulnerabilities, right? Like that's a number one indicator you're in an abusive relationship when they use your vulnerabilities against you. So what are they? And now, what I want you to do is to write down exactly what your response is going to be every time they say it. Every time. It's like, hit return, hit return, hit return. So I use, I love your response. I use, um, "Yeah, I don't agree, but thank you for your input." Same concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, right? And then, or I say, um, "Yeah, that's not true, but okay. Okay, thanks for letting me know." You know? And so it's really about, but, but, but if we don't have that arsenal of canned responses, somewhere in that disregulated state, we're not going to be able to grab it. It's, we're, our brain is going to be in reptilian mode. We're not going to be able to grab it. So we have to really practice that. You know, the empty chair idea. I tell my clients to look at the empty chair and pretend they're having a conversation with the abuser, because if we don't practice it, we're not going to be ready in that moment. So, so true. Yeah.
Um, and in fact, when I would do those kind of things back when I had my practice, I would, I would also say, "Why don't we, as we're talking about the possibilities of your responses, why don't we include some of your crummy options too?" Uh, and let's, let's think that one through. You can scream at them, that's always an option. You can kick them in the shins, that's another option. You can say ugly things about their mama, that's an option. Uh, what do you think about that? Uh, you can cry and go into the other room. Or then we look at the healthy options. Which ones make the most sense? And, and it can be very empowering to realize, "Oh, you mean you're saying I have options, crummy options and good options, and I'm smart enough to pick the good ones?" Right? So, love it. That is perfect. That is perfect. I actually help say to moms, "Let's role model how you can help your child in these situations too." Because, you know, um, these kids don't know what to say when, you know, maybe Dad says something negative about Mom, or Mom says something negative about Dad. Well, let's talk. Let's process with what you can say that gives you agency in that moment, that personal power, so that that person knows that that's something you're not comfortable talking about.
Let's, uh, we'll kind of begin winding here, but I, I want to throw out a word. It's, it's one of my favorite words in in the therapy lingo. It's the word freedom. Uh, each person has the freedom to be who they will. You get, you get to choose who you're going to be. The opposite of coercive control would be freedom. Um, one of the things we're wanting to lead people towards is that sense that says, "You have the privilege to be who you are." It's, it's not just a right, it's just simply who you are. It's something you lean into. It's, it's a responsibility you have. Uh, what are your thoughts about helping those individuals find that sense of freedom despite that other person's insistence that they must and should be controlled?
Right? So Dr. Evan Stark calls it a liberty crime. Okay. I'm with you. Yeah, right. Sounds like exactly what you just said. So, um, I would say that again, make sure that you're reaching out to people who can be there for you, and begin creating safe spaces for yourself outside of that relationship, because that relationship will consume you and devour your autonomy. You will, your autonomy will be completely devoured if you do not ensure that you have places to escape to to give you autonomy and to be heard. Really clearly.
Dr. Christine Coola, Coola, we need so many more people like you. Uh, you're so articulate in the way that you say this. Okay. You, you have a website. I love the name, I knowyourheart.com. And so I'm going to tell all our folks, go, go ahead and, and flood that, flood that website. And also, we're going to have some, uh, some information, uh, underneath the video that's going to allow us to allow people to know how they can, uh, get in touch with your resources and all like that. You're, you're doing such necessary work, and I'm, I'm so encouraged when I talk to people like you that are, I mean, you're on the front lines and, uh, doing, doing the necessary thing out there. So thanks so much for who you are and what you do.
Well, thank you so much for what you've been doing. You've been a trailblazer. Let's just be honest, Terry. You've been blazing this trail for a while, and I'm really grateful that people have been able to find you and find you gave me solace in the very beginning when I started to figure out that's what I was engaged in in my relationship. So I appreciate you very much.
We all learn from each other, don't we? So, uh, let's, let's continue in that effort. Uh, once again, thanks so much for being with us, team healthy. I, I hope that you are hearing the, the heart of Dr. C here, the other Dr. C, and that you're going to be able to take up, uh, the information that she has to offer. I will see you next time. And once again, thanks for being with with us. And, um, Dr. C, I hope you're, you're staying warm enough up there in Connecticut. I'm kind of guessing it's a little chilly out there where you are today. So, sure. Okay. I'll see you next time. I hope that we have the chance to do this again. Okay. Thank you so much.
You're quite welcome.