Free Copywriting Course For Beginners - Conversion Copywriting 101

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So Joel, kind of a new term is conversion copywriting. Can you help us understand what conversion copywriting is, or what it at least means to you?

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, conversion copywriting, two little words, but a ton of confusion around what that actually means and what the difference is. So, it's, it's actually easier to break them apart to understand the difference and then kind of bring it back together. So, when we look at just copywriting, copywriting traditionally referred to anything written by marketers, ads, billboards, scripts. And now we're even using the same word to talk about things like blogs and ebooks, which is part of where this, you know, confusion comes from. But just because all of those things might help position a product or describe a product or even communicate a unique value proposition, doesn't mean that they're conversion copywriting.

So, conversion copywriting doesn't just mean words written to sell something. Um, if we look at the conversion part, that's where this, you know, kind of takes shape. So, when we talk about conversion, we're talking about motivating someone to act, motivating someone to make a decision. Now, you might think, "Okay, well, what's the difference between that and direct response?" Direct response has been doing that for a long time, and and you'd be right. But with direct response, it's more about the process and the delivery. So, when you look at, you know, direct response, it's a lot of big claims, highlighted text, bold, italics, very long sales letters. But that's just not appropriate for the context of a lot of relationships, in a lot of sales. It's also very aggressive, which some people are resistant to or very skeptical of. They even see the format and they'll bounce away.

So, conversion copywriting is motivating people to act. It takes out of copywriting, kind of the, the voice and tone, and finding your unique value proposition, and then combines it with conversion, with motivating someone to act. So, all important is how that information is presented. The process of conversion copywriting is important. So, there's inevitably a research component. There's always considerations, not just for what you're saying, but how it's presented. How will these headlines actually look? Where might images and copy complement each other? Um, and then the last thing that really differentiates conversion copy is that you can test it. You can test every element of it. So, unlike a billboard or an ad, which is static once you've written it, it's up there, and it's really hard to attribute success or failure to just one billboard or just one message. With conversion copy, you can measure everything. You can compare and contrast headlines, you can try different messaging, you can see if adding an element like a Johnson box actually makes more people convert, makes less people convert, or has no impact. So, that's all integral. That process is integral to what we would call conversion copy.

So, Jen, we know that we are supposed to write for an audience, not for the whole world, but for a specific audience. But the question often is, "Well, how do I even know who that audience is? How do I know who I'm writing for?" Um, so can you share your thoughts with us on how you find out who you're writing for?

Yeah, absolutely. So, it boils down to two words, which are customer research. And it's absolutely critical that you're listening to and talking to your customers so that you understand their deeper motivations, why they're seeking you out, what their biggest hesitations and concerns are when they come to your site. Uh, and, you know, basically what kind of mindset they're in, and, and, um, their state of awareness. You know, how aware they are of your product, um, business solution, all those kind of good things. Uh, and so, so that's really the, the crux of it, and why you want to be doing your customer research.

So, how do you do that? Um, yes, the best ways that I've found, uh, are by emailing your, um, existing customers with, uh, a survey, asking them very pointed questions, uh, having some open-ended questions, which is really great for message mining and figuring out what words resonate. And then, um, there's on-site popup surveys, so asking one question as people are leaving your site to find out maybe why they're leaving. If they're, um, leaving a checkout page and they haven't bought, things like that, you can find out what's going on. Um, also going online and message mining. So, what you've talked a lot about, uh, online, like going to Amazon, looking at reviews, um, you know, things like that, where you can actually see what people are talking about and what they think about the solution or the product. Uh, and then, as well, interviews. So, one-on-one interviews are fantastic. Yes. And the really great thing about those is you can keep sort of digging deeper and deeper and deeper until you can find out how people actually feel about, um, you know, why they're coming to you. Yeah, which is huge, right? When you can get down to those deeper emotional insights. Yeah. And truly, interviews are so often the best way to get there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, so anyway, so those are the, the, the best ways that, uh, I've found to, to do that. And, uh, applying that in a practical way, particularly to your copy, recently this past year, uh, was really fun. Did a, some testing with a colleague of mine on a site where we wanted to see about changing around the copy, particularly above the fold. Um, and really trying to, to tap into exactly who this, um, solution was targeted to, and also to, um, really drill down into why these people were coming. So, what we did was, we had one, um, on-site popup to get people to self-identify. So, to figure out, were they beginners? Were they intermediates? Were they, um, advanced? And this is for, um, to find out about them as programmers, because, or to become developers. It was a, a site to, to, um, actually help people learn some of these basic programs, okay, and get their first developer job. Anyway. So, so we did that, and it was great. We found that out. And then, um, we also went through the customer surveys and found out through that that the big motivation of why people were coming was to get their first developer job. Okay. And so, we were able to use that and, and put that into the main value proposition, headline, subhead, um, to, to immediately as people landed, they knew that this site was for them and what they would get out of it. Um, and so, between that and also bringing a video up to the top where it addressed some of the people's concerns and what they would get out of the course, yeah, it upped conversions by 60%.

That's incredible. Great, right? Yeah. So, that was really fun. And it might, I know people hear like, like, "Oh, putting, putting together a survey, that sounds complicated. That takes too much time. Takes too much work." Or interviewing people, "That takes too much time. Is too much work." But when you can just do those things, it really helps you, like you say, write that better copy that otherwise you would have been completely guessing at. And what takes more time and work than just sitting there guessing randomly and hoping for the best? I mean, that can go on forever and really hurt your business versus just sitting down, putting together that popup survey, and launching it. Seven days later, max, you usually have some really good results to work with. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So, that was, that was fantastic. And very lastly, I mean, the other really cool thing was, um, there was another page on the site that we were thinking about changing that had a very detailed graphic about, you know, this whole course and the curriculum, and it just did not really make sense to me. And I, and I was so glad that he did, um, um, another survey and, and actually asked about that particular page and found out that the people coming to the site totally made sense to them. Oh. So, it was, it was great because we would have changed that. We, it didn't make sense to us. Wasn't really intuitive to us. But how it was planned out really spoke to these people. And so, the whole lesson behind this is, you've got to just ask these questions and talk to people. Yeah, because you're not writing for you, right? So, if you had changed that page for you and your partner because it wasn't working for you, right, then got it wrong, right? That would have been wrong. So, you had to learn and write for the, the group that you're actually writing for, and not for, [Music] yourself.

So, Eddie, talk to us a bit about value propositions. Because we hear about value props, we talk about them, but I think it could be hard sometimes to understand if you're new to copywriting, how to use a value prop in your copywriting. So, can you talk to us about that?

Sure. Um, yeah, so value props are one of these things that I think are, they're simple in theory, but they're a bit more difficult in execution. So, essentially, what they are is, they're a statement that describes what sets you apart from the competition. Um, it's a promise of value that describes the benefit of your offerings. So, it's how you solve the needs of your prospect and what makes your unique, your offering unique. Um, they're typically, um, quite succinct, quite memorable, and they would most likely be used as a homepage headline. Um, it's the, probably the most important headline, important headline that you would write. Although you can use them on landing pages, but it's probably simplest just to think of them for your headline right now. Um, and in terms of where they, the structure of them, they can also include the subheads, some bullets, and even a graphic on the hero section of your page. So, so, might be helpful to talk a couple points about what they aren't, um, right off the bat. They're not a slogan. They're typically not a tagline, although they can be, but typically not. They're not a positioning statement, and they would never be a vision or mission statement. That's definitely something that they shouldn't be. All of these things are obviously valuable to have, but they don't make up your value proposition. And finally, they shouldn't be cutesy, clever, any of those sorts of things. We're trying to be really clear, um, with your value proposition on your homepage.

So, to create a strong value proposition, as with probably most things in copywriting, you need to start with your audience. Um, you absolutely need to know them, and there's pretty much no way around this. So, because even if you have a really wonderful value prop, um, if what you offer isn't what your customer wants, or they don't understand it, then your value proposition is going to fail. So, and then lastly, before we sort of jump in a little bit more detail, um, brings up an interesting element about, you know, value props, um, as a copywriter, a marketer, or a business person, they're really useful because they help you to focus. So, and it's really important because it can be tough to come up with a strong value prop. Um, but fighting through sort of that development is really important because it not only is it valuable for your prospects on your homepage or on your website, but also for you as a business person, because it really forces you to figure out exactly what your offer is and how you differentiate from your, your competition. Right. Right.

So, there's, um, a few, five steps that, uh, in terms of measurement, that you can use to, um, evaluate the characteristics of your value prop. And, uh, you will know about these. And there's first is unique, desirable, succinct, memorable, and specific. So, you know, these are, uh, a good gauge to help you sort of measure if you're sort of wondering about whether or not your value prop is working for you. And unique, basically, is something that your competitors can't or don't say. Desirable is something that your prospect wants that you actually offer. Succinct, as it says, it's just not overly wordy. It's not your mission statement, and it says what it needs to say as simply as possible. Memorable, something ideally that will stick into your prospect's mind. And specific, it's just, it's not vague, and it's not shy. It, it just says what it needs to say.

So, to help illustrate value propositions, I've got a couple of examples of good ones and a couple of examples of what I think are kind of poor versions. Okay? So, to get things off on a positive note, here's a couple of good examples. Um, so the first one is for the company called Jewelbots.com. And then we can sort of maybe explain a little bit more about what they do. So, this is what they say. They say, "Give her an advantage. The world's first programmable friendship bracelet. Get your kid coding today." So, right off the bat, you, you know, without me even explaining anymore, you know what they do. It's, it's a programmable friendship bracelet. So, right off of that, you know, it's very clear. So, and on the five, five, uh, characteristics that I just mentioned, um, you know, it is very unique. This is a unique product. It's desirable, especially to that audience, and even to like someone like myself as a dad, think that's a really cool potential gift for like a daughter. It's succinct, and it is quite memorable. The whole idea of like it being the world's first programmable friendship bracelet, like you kind of can't get past that. Um, and it touches on some really interesting benefits, like, you know, the advantage of, you're giving this advantage to your daughter, and get your kid coding. So, it's overall, I think it scores really well on those five characteristics. Okay. Cool.

A second example is the Microsoft Surface Pro. So, everyone knows about Microsoft, but they got this really cool product. And this is what their value proposition is. They say, "The tablet that can replace your laptop." So, this one actually works really well as a tagline as well, because it's, it's really succinct and it feels like a tagline. But they use it as a value proposition, and it scores really well, I think, on the five characteristics, because, you know, it's, it has, it hits all the marks. It's unique, desirable, succinct, memorable, and specific. Um, and it pretty much works. And I know for myself, I want one of these things, so it's very desirable as like their target market. I think I remember this, this value prop all the time, every time I'm shopping. So, um, I think this one works really well. Yeah. And I just want to point out that although a value prop isn't necessarily a tagline, like you say, it can work as one. And the first value proposition was, of course, "Milk chocolate melts in your mouth, not in your hands," which meets all those criteria that you talked about. But it worked as a tagline as well for a very long time for M&Ms. So, yeah. Right. Okay.

And in terms of, so I've got a couple of, um, couple of, uh, not as good examples of value props, just to sort of show some contrast. So, the first one is from this company called Farmlogs.com, which probably nobody's heard about. Um, and what's interesting about this is I chose this because they, you know, it's not a company that I knew about, but with just a little bit of research, I, I uncovered the fact that they had recently raised about almost $16 million in equity funding. So, somebody out there thinks that they're valuable, and, um, they're giving them a fair bit of money. So, I'm thinking, "Okay, great. Let's see what are they saying about themselves." So, this is what they say. They say, "We believe in creating a better future for farming. Get started for free." So, when I saw that, instantly I'm thinking, "Okay, I don't, I kind of quickly ran through the scoring, and it essentially scores poorly on all counts." It's succinct, okay, it's pretty, you know, it kind of hits that mark, but not in a really meaningful way. There's nothing unique about it. It's not desirable. I don't actually even know what they do by their value proposition. It's not memorable, and it's definitely not specific. Like, you know, it, it read like a classic sort of vague vision, vision statement. Even with their word, "we believe," at the beginning, it kind of sounds like they might have pulled that from like a vision document of some kind. So, that's my first example, one that, you know, they obviously got a lot of funding, but even with their money, they haven't been able to sort of nail what their value proposition is.

And the second example I have is another really interesting idea. This is from a site called Thrivefeeding.com. And before I tell you what they do, this is what their value proposition is. They say, "135 million births per year. 15 million premature. 20% of all newborns experience feeding difficulty. The human and economic cost is high." So, here, there's no actual proper value proposition at all. And it's a shame because this is a really interesting idea. They're a smart baby bottle startup that has technology built into the bottle so that for premature babies or babies that are born that have trouble feeding, moms or hospitals, or, you know, any sort of medical personnel could get a really good idea of what, how much food the baby's actually taking in. So, it's a really fantastic idea. But here, they've got this like incredibly vague, kind of all over the place value proposition. And they've thrown in some stats. Yeah, even the stats aren't really useful because, you know, they say the economic and human and economic cost is high, but they don't actually elaborate. Um, it's, I mean, it brings up as like this tangent from the copywriters in here, just the, the need for a copywriter in the room sometimes, because if they thought that was a value prop, clearly they were wrong. If they thought they didn't need a value prop, clearly they're wrong. And, and they're missing a huge opportunity here, given what their product does, that it actually has so much value packed into it as a product, and yet that's not coming out on the page at all. Exactly. Exactly. That's the thing. That's bad for the business. Bad for all those babies that could actually benefit from having access to this thing that nobody even understands what it is when they should be allowed to. It's just upsetting to me. It is. It is. It's a really cool product. Like when I saw it, I was like, "This is fantastic!" But like, oh my goodness, reading their, reading the value proposition, even other material on the website, I'm like, they could really use a hand.

So, um, so to sum up about the whole idea of value propositions, you know, as I've sort of outlined, it's a critical headline for your site. And, uh, what it ultimately is, is it's a succinct and memorable statement about what's unique and highly desirable about your solution that has to be informed by your audience. And if you can do all that, you might end up with a really good value problem.

So, Mary Lou, we have been talking a bit about stages of awareness. And I'm wondering, I'd love to hear from you, what does a visitor's stage of awareness have to do with the copy that you write?

Well, Joanna, it has everything to do, really. Um, you're with your copy, you're meeting the visitor where they're at in their thought process. So, you're trying to ascertain what conversation they're coming to your website or your site with, okay? You know, they have a certain level of question in their mind, or they have some, uh, just information that they're trying to find or get clarity on. So, but the information could be very detailed, or could just be very generic. So, your copy has to cover all that. And essentially, you have to provide the right information at the right time and in the right amount, right? So, awareness really fits into that. It's really important to understand where your visitors are coming from inside their head. Okay.

Can you help us understand that by kind of talking us through even the five, like I think you call them levels of awareness, as people call them stages of awareness? Can you walk us through those quickly?

Sure. Um, this is based on research that was done in 1957 by Eugene Schwartz. And it, uh, it's a great, uh, if you can search for it online and find someone who synthesized his work, it's a really good way of understanding the level of awareness of each of your site visitors. So, they're five. The first one is completely unaware, meaning that they don't even know they have a need. They don't know that product exists. Obviously, there's an emotion, maybe an attitude, but they don't really know how to articulate what it is that's irking them or keeping them from thinking things are great. That's level one. Two is that they're aware of a problem, but it, they don't make that connection that the problem is, is, uh, characteristic of what your product offers. So, they know they, they may know they have a problem, but they don't know that your product is something that can solve that problem. The next level up is that they're aware there's a solution. So, they recognize the problem, they see the benefit, they want results, but again, they don't know that your product will provide the desired result. Okay. Level four is that they're aware there's a product. They know that there's a product that can help them, but they're not sure yours is the right product, or they're not sure if they want it yet. And then finally, the level that we'd love all of our site visitors to be at is the most aware, where they know about your product, they know it'll solve their needs, and now they want it. So, click that button to buy, right? You really just have to do little things then to make the move on something. Yes.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Um, so can you, is there an example that you can give of how those might be something you think about when you're writing your copy?

Yes. I, I, I think a good example is a wedding site. I like to use that as an example of four different site visitors coming to the site, and then you think about where their head is at. So, visitor number one comes to the site and is wondering if there are venues in his city. Visitor number two has selected the city of the venue. Now they want to know how they can find a photographer, videographer, and one that knows the venue. They've selected. A third visitor may come looking for bridesmaids dresses, and can they buy them there? And then a fourth visitor might be the parent of the bride, wondering how much this is all going to cost. But you can see there's four distinct thoughts and questions in the site visitor's head before they hit your website. You've done a really great job on one of your blogs that your students should go look for that talks about the awareness state, uh, and the impact of copy on the copy that you write. And you built it really simply with starting at low awareness and working towards high awareness of how detailed you should get, how much you have to say. So, this sort of puts to bed that argument of long versus short copy, because really, what you're trying to do is think about where is my buyer in a state of awareness that will dictate how long your copy should be and what type of copy you write.

So, Mary Lou, we've been talking about stages of awareness. And one of the big questions that people have when they're thinking of, um, writing copy and considering a person's stage of awareness, or prospect stage of awareness, when they write that, like, "How long should my copy be?" Um, that kind of question, that, that stage of awareness understanding can answer. People wonder, I've wondered, as I've grown as a copywriter, I want to get more and more tips and techniques for how I can actually tell what stage of awareness my visitors are in. So, do you have any tips or techniques to help people with that?

Yes. And I think, um, first and foremost, you want to look at metrics. And when I say metrics, what I mean is the actual analytics that are kept on your behalf by all these tools that are out there now. When someone comes to a landing page, when someone reads an email, when someone picks, does a pay-per-click or clicks through. So, metrics are important. And then within the metric community, there are, there are actual levers that you can pull that will help you understand where people are. Okay? So, if you were to consider a table of different, uh, assets and different channels, then I'll, let me give you some ideas of the types of metrics that you'd want to at least review. And then from there, you'll figure out, uh, how to weight those in order of importance based on what the application is, because there's always a goal and a call to action for your content. So, you'll be able to prioritize the order in which these levers are of importance for you. Okay. Okay.

So, let's look at a landing page. I mean, a landing page, obviously, they hit the landing page. So, the point of entry is important, and you can, where they came from, and essentially, they're clicking through to your page. So, if you were building an email and you had them click through to the landing page, you get hits in both places. So, you want to be able to track that. The other items on a landing page include self-identification, where they can actually tell you who they are and where they are in their state of awareness via a popup window, or even if you have something along the side in the navigation area. Time on page is important. Um, the visit frequency, how many times they've actually come to that page is very important. And of course, the click-through rates, because on the landing page, you're writing content to perhaps take them to other pages on the website, and actually, you're pulling them through now and getting them from whatever level they're at into a level that's going to get them to buy. So, those are the types of metrics for landing pages. If you were in social media, you would be looking for things like followers, likes, connections. You may have a "tell a friend" campaign where they're actually referring your content to others in their social networks. If you were doing other web types of marketing, then you're going to be looking at the number of pages they visited. Again, timing on page is important, how long they've been there. You want to know how often they come back, visit frequency. And these are all metrics that are in the analytic tools that you can reference. If you're doing email, email is a great one because we look at really three things. We look at open rates, which tells you whether the email was at least reviewed or previewed. Click-through rates are very important, and there are actually benchmarks around a really good click-through rate for a particular vertical that you'll want to take advantage of, so you have something to strive for. So, those are real solid rates that you can look at that are actually documented. Response rates are very important because they're actually replying to your email request. And then pay-per-click and SEO, there's the ability to use keywords, whether they're long or short term, uh, short tail keywords. Yeah, those are gold because that tells you exactly where your site visitor is in their level of awareness. If they're putting in longtail keywords, you know that they have a better idea and a better awareness of what their need is and whether or not your product can solve that.

So, Mary Lou, um, when we're talking about stages of awareness, I think it feels like, "Okay, well, most aware is kind of, kind of easy to get to, right? I can figure out what people that are most aware want. Let's say they want, um, a discount. All they need to move, they know that they've got a problem, they know that I'm the solution, but all they're really waiting for is some sort of scarcity play or urgency, some sort of incentive, something, something like that." Um, so we'll focus on those and we'll get our, you know, 2% conversion rate. Let's not worry about the lower awareness people, or people in the lowest stage of awareness, because it's very hard to convert them. So, I want to, I mean, all that easy stuff, right? Easy to convert those most aware people. But I'd love to hear from you about whether it's even possible to convert visitors with low awareness, and if you should try to do anything with people who are in that low stage of awareness.

Uh, you know, yes, they can be converted, but just because you've built it doesn't mean that they'll come, you know? So, really, low awareness is all about time, giving it time, and gently nudging and gently pulling through to get them to slowly trust you and slowly understand that they have a need and a sense of urgency. So, really, the lower, the lower awareness folks, you're gonna have to hit them multiple ways. If, if you want to shorten that lag in the timeline of getting them to a more moderate level of awareness, then you've got to add some additional channels of ammunition in order to get out to them to start building that awareness. I think a good example of that is if you look at the ads of the 1960s, when they started introducing like the Volkswagen, you know, and things like that. People hadn't heard about using a small car. They were all using the big gas guzzler American cars. And along came this little thing. Um, but they had to attack it from multiple levels. So, even if your site visitor gets to your site by searching on a keyword that got them there, you still have to really understand where they're at in their head, in their thought process, and then work your magic to move them from level to level to level with your content. And, and there are differences in the content from a low awareness funnel to a high awareness funnel that you'll need to deploy and think about and map out as part of your strategy.

Can you give us some brief differences that you think, like, "Okay, so if you're planning for low awareness, this is what it might look like versus planning for high awareness visitors?"

Sure. Um, you know, let's set the channels aside. And when I, when I say channel, I mean things like doing direct mail, maybe do guest blogging, and, you know, just all over the place, just be everywhere. Those are channels. But to actually, uh, to get the low awareness funnel moving, you really have to focus on emotion. Because we start as humans, really becoming aware of things from an emotional perspective. So, your content has to focus on that emotion, and getting them focused on need, on sense of urgency. You're building trust. Educate, educate, educate. I mean, you're really working on spoon-feeding them the information that will slowly bubble it up to the top of, of saying, "Oh my gosh, I need this." You're going to be using low-level calls to action, getting low commitment, uh, out of them, and really deploy a lot of the psychology, like, uh, Robert Cialdini's book, "The Six Principles of Persuasion." You're going to read through that, you're going to start working on trying to write content that's really based on moving the herd slowly through the, through the actual levels of awareness. So, stories and metaphors, human interest, should ask questions, which a lot of people don't write, you know, start spoon-feeding them what they should be asking you, things like that would be the low awareness funnel.

As we move to the high awareness funnel, that is now moving from that emotion and starting to deploy logic. So, they've made the decision, but now they have to justify actually spending the money. So, you're going to be benefit-based, results-based. You're going to be writing content that has more specificity around it, more proof, you know, dollars gained, percentage decrease, whatever the number is, that really points out your product's, uh, place in the market over your competitors. You're going to be doing higher-level calls to action, asking for the sale, for example. You know, it's more logical. You're going to still blend some emotion in there, but really, we're at the point now where I just need justification so I can buy this thing. So, testimonials, endorsements, case studies. If you're in the B2B world, white papers, return on investment summaries. Can you see how the difference? We were telling stories about, you know, life and how it could be better in the lower, lower awareness side, and we're slowly migrating to the proof points and the benefits and the results as if they're already using your product on the high awareness level.

So, Mary Lou, you have a formula called The 100 Audience Formula. And when we're talking about awareness, this is a great time to talk about that 100 Audience Formula and introduce people to it. So, would you mind sharing it with us?

I'd love to. Thank you. The, uh, the 100 Audience Formula is a formula that appears to transcend multiple channels. It, it works in the sales channel, it works in the outreach channel, and in general, it works for levels of awareness. So, the reason why I wanted to introduce it to you today was so that you can get your arms around, you know, exactly what can I expect in terms of conversion rates when I'm working as a copywriter, when I'm doing landing pages, when I'm doing emails, when I'm doing content marketing. It's a, it's a formula that you can at least have in your back pocket of something to, uh, aspire to.

So, the way it works is, for every hundred people, imagine they're sitting in a stadium, um, three of those people are ready to buy now. So, in our level of awareness, they would be the most aware people. They're ready to go. They know the product, they know it's going to work for them, they're ready to buy. Six to seven people are open to it, but they haven't made that decision yet. So, we would consider them in our level of awareness, product to aware people. Yeah. Okay. 30 don't think interested, which means they are aware there's a product, there's a, there's, uh, essentially a solution. Sorry, they're aware of the solution, may not be the product, but they are to be convinced. They're not quite sure. 30 know they're not interested. So, they're aware of the problem, but they don't have any interest in solving the problem right now. And then 30 are completely unaware of the problems. So, that would be that completely unaware level of awareness that we talked about.

So, what this means is, of 100 people, three, 3% are ready to go now. Six to 7% have to be convinced. And the rest are really harder to convince and persuade to buy the product. Yeah.

It's, it's interesting because we talk about, um, writing for the 20 to 35% of your visitors that are really your best prospects. So, it maps closely to the 40% that you're talking about from solution aware through to most aware, writing for that group. And if we think of, and now you're talking about across a website, not just on a specific landing page. So, you may have certain pages that are designed just for solution aware people, and others that are for product aware. And maybe product aware is your homepage, or maybe that's most aware. But, but it helps us, I think it gives us something, like you say, to put your, your arms around it. So, you know, "Okay, well, if we have, let's say, let's just use it as a number, let's say that there are 30% of our site visitors that are solution aware, do we have content, um, and pages created to help those people in that stage, or are we really banking on everybody being, uh, product aware?" Um, where exactly, right? Yeah.

And it also maps to that, uh, inbound attraction model, where there's an assumption that people are already in those higher levels of awareness. Yeah. So, you have to kind of pick your battles because, you know, you're going to write to, hopefully, between 25, 35, 40% of the people to try to convert them, knowing that only 3% or less are actually ready to go. So, it puts clarity around the kind of content you need and what level you're really dealing with of awareness. And I think it also gives us a better objective or goal, which is, if most sites are converting at 2%, which is the industry standard, um, and I know that that includes, a lot of, it actually doesn't often include a lot of blog posts or other sorts of content that are dragging that, uh, that are something to factor in or segment out, usually when we're doing our analysis, um, but, um, yeah, it, it, it, it, it really helps us think more about converting more than that 2%. If 3% and I know this is just a formula, right? So, it's not a formula, it's just a starting point. But for those of us who are interested in conversion rate optimization, it sets a sort of standard, I think, that is helpful, like, um, a, a goal to reach. So, if you're only at 3%, um, or sorry, if you're only, uh, converting at 2% on your site, and 3% is possibly attainable, let's strive for that, right? At minimum, let's strive to get those most aware people, because those should be the easiest ones to get anyway, right?

And, you know, this formula started probably in the sales channel, so it was more looking at people in the sales pipeline. But as recently as a month ago, I heard it described with education-based marketing, which is content marketing. So, the formula seems to span across multiple channels and multiple ways of selling. And I think it's a good formula, like you said, Joanna, to really get our arms around where we can go with this. And from a conversion rate optimization point of view, there's a lot of work in there for you to work with clients to get them to those goals.

So, James, when we are first learning about how to write copy, especially writing copy for the web, we hear about this term, which is page goal. Can you talk to us about the importance of page goals, what they are, um, how we should be thinking about page goals when we're actually writing a page?

Sure. Uh, yeah, that sounds good. Um, I want to start with a quote from, uh, Rachel McAlpine, who wrote a book in 1999 called "Web Word Wizardry," which seems like a long time ago now. But the quote is good: "Websites have an overall strategy for the entire site, plus a goal for every single page." And I think that's the most important thing to take away from that is that there's a goal for every single page. Yeah. And ideally, one goal for every single page. Um, the goal might be broader or more narrow, depending on the type of page, but essentially, there's one. So, I would define a page goal as, "Why you have that page on your site." Okay? The purpose of each page varies, but there's a purpose to every page. There's a reason why you decided to have an about page, or a homepage, or a contact page, or if you're in e-commerce, you have category pages and product pages, and each one has its own purpose, and that purpose is the goal. Okay?

So, um, as an example, uh, Groove HQ, if you go to their homepage, there's a few different things you can click on, but at the top, in the right-hand side, there's a big red button that says "Sign Up Free." And then if you scroll down about halfway down, there's another big red button that says "Sign Up Free." When you get to the bottom, get another one. So, the goal for that page is to get you to click on the big red button that says "Sign Up Free." And I mean, there's, there's a little bit of copy on the page, not a lot. Um, but essentially, that's where they want you to go next. That's what they want you to do when you get there. Okay. Makes sense.

Another, on the opposite side of the spectrum, I went to the, the Apple homepage, just out of interest. And on Apple's homepage, I, I found 62 different things you could click on. Wow. So, clearly, their homepage has a different goal. And, with so much choice, the object of the page is to force you to choose something. And so, you get there, and you find what you're looking for. You know what Apple is. You didn't just stumble onto their web page, and they know this. So, the goal of the page is to move you through to what you came there to do in the first place, as quickly as possible. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah.

So, um, when you're writing your website, you have to think of that for each of your different pages. And so, the homepage is more of an introduction, in, in a sense, whereas the "About Us" page, people are only going to click there if they really want to know more about you. So, you know, I, us think typically the purpose of an "About Us" page is to instill more trust and show that you're, or your company is more relatable, and, and just sort of, uh, make people more inclined to buy from or work with you. Oh. Um, another page that sounds like it has a clear goal, the contact page that most websites have. Some people's contact page, for example, I went to the Bluehost contact page, and there are 23 different unique 800 numbers depending on what it is you want to know about and have chat. Some of them don't, but there's literally 23 different 1800 numbers that you can call. So, they want you, yeah, okay. The other hand, you have some contact pages where you have to first go through a series of frequently asked questions and sort of qualify yourself in or out of whether they actually want you to contact them. So, even though you would think the goal is contact, it may or may not be. Okay. Interesting.

Um, I, I, another page type that we talk about a lot is landing pages. And a great quote on the subject of landing pages comes from Oli Gardner, the, uh, co-founder of Unbounce, when he said, "One page, one purpose. Period." H. And so, in landing pages, they're more streamlined. There shouldn't be any other way to get off the page than to do the thing that they want you to do when you get there. Right? Yeah. So, when you are writing or designing your page, you want to keep that purpose in mind. And one of the best ways to do that is to start writing it from the goal, from the call to action. Okay? Start there. Don't start with your headline. Don't start with your subhead. Don't think about the benefits you're going to put here or there. Start with the one thing that is the purpose of the page, and then build backwards from there. And that's a, that's a way to make sure that you're always staying on task. So, as you add things, do they add to what you did just before? [Music]

So, talk to us, Sam, when we're working on actually the, the work before you start writing, like really figuring out what goes on a great web page. Can you talk us through sort of the anatomy of a?

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I think for a lot of people, the question is always, "What do I put on the page and where should everything go and in what order?" But I think it's important to keep in mind that regardless of what page it is, whether it's a pricing page or a landing page or a homepage, there are certain key principles you can always keep in mind. That as long as you stick to those principles, they will kind of help you decide what should go on it. You don't need to throw the kitchen sink on the page. You don't have to have everything you could possibly have. Uh, it's important to just understand that the goal of the page, and also what people are expecting when they get to the page, will be kind of the guiding stars. Often. And so, starting off, you should always have a clear value prop, a value proposition. Um, and this can either be very specific to the page itself, like if it's a landing page, or it can be, um, a sort of broader value prop if it's a homepage. Um, and this will help the visitor immediately know, like, "What's here? Why should I care? Why should I stick around? And will it matter for me?" You know, the classic thing that we always talk about is people ask themselves, "What's in it for me?" You know, "What should I do here?" And so, you want to have that value prop come up first, ideally above the fold, where it's just, it meets them, it greets them, and it says, "Hi and welcome," in a sense, not word for word, but you want them to, the visitor to feel like, "Okay, this makes sense." And then that to be nudging them to move forward. Okay. So, they're often asking themselves, you know, "What can I do on this page?" You know, and like, "Is this for me?" Like, "Is this actual website or page?"

Something that I should care about. And if I am the person who it is for, then what's next? You know, what comes next in terms of for me to do? Uh, and often a visitor might have a goal in mind. They might have a purpose for why they're there. Maybe they're searching for information. Maybe they're looking for, uh, answers to something very specific. Uh, and these are things that you'll learn as you test and as you have, uh, feedback coming from your visitors. But to start off, you definitely want to have a clear value prop that kind of draws them in and notices them to stay.

Yes, okay. Perfect. Great way to start the page. Okay. Okay. Now, next with that, um, as with ending page, you want to have a very easy, user-focused design and layout. And I think this is where a lot of people tend to go wrong, in that they throw up anything they can think of on a page and they try to arrange it in a way that makes sense to them. You know, image on the left, text on the right, and you go back and forth often. Um, but what you want to keep in mind here is that you want to try to anticipate questions that a visitor will have and you want to address them successively. Right? So instead of just thinking, "Oh, I'm sure someone would want to know what features come with this app." Uh, they might ask themselves that question. But is, you know, is a list of features the way to answer that? Is that really the best way to lay out a page where you just have bullets and long lists? Or, you know, is a video appropriate? Um, or is screenshots even, like GIF or GIF screenshots, however you pronounce that, right? People don't know how to pronounce that word either. So GIF, slash, GIF, whatever it is. I do GIF. Yeah, we'll do GIF. That might be useful to have where you kind of illustrate usage of, if it's an app, for example, right? So, yeah, design and layout that's focused around your visitor and what they might want to know and what they should know. Uh, you know, don't clutter it. Don't have all these different elements just thrown onto a page. You want to have it where you take into consideration UX design principles, use your experience principles, and let that really guide, uh, the design elements that you have.

And, uh, right. The next step then, of course, is having a somewhat intuitive navigation. Um, and this doesn't just refer to your top header where you have the links at the top, you know, about, pricing, or features, benefits. That's part of it. Uh, but what you want to keep in mind is that when people are scrolling through your page, they're having questions that are hopefully being answered successively. And you want to lead them. You want to help them navigate towards a particular outcome. And so this is where a page having a specific goal in mind, this is where that will help you a lot. In, in the sense of, okay, if I want someone to click through to the next page after this, or if I want them to fill out a form or watch a video, how can the design and the navigation serve that purpose? You know, what can I do with the layout? What can I do with the text or graphics or whatever it is? How can I make that serve the purpose of whatever the ultimate outcome is? So the design and navigation kind of go hand in hand there.

Yeah, and I want to just pause on that because I think it's a really good point talking about the page goal. Yeah. And really starting from there. So you have, of course, what the user wants to do in mind, the job they're trying to get done on the page. And then see how that matches the job you want them to do as well. Right? So if you know what they're coming there to do, but you'd really like them to sign up for consultation, right? I need to go on that page. Then how will you, really are starting with that ultimate goal. Like, okay, so if our job is to get them to sign up for consultation, yeah, everything that comes before that needs to make them want to sign up for consultation and feel good about it. And that has to be what the user wants as well. Yeah. And I think if you, if you have that as the end goal, right, then you want to reverse engineer that and think to yourself, what, what do they have to know and believe in order to take that step? Right? And so that's where an effective call to action comes into play as well. Uh, you know, if, uh, if the angle is, for example, a consultation, then you're moving the person towards that outcome. And you're answering questions, you're overcoming objections. Uh, you kind of think your way through what they need to know and believe about you and about this page or the website itself for them to take that step. But then the call to action, you don't want to fudge on it either and have it be not matching with what you're believing towards. You want to have that call to action, when you look at it, it's a button, you want them to look at and so, yeah, of course. And then just click it or fill out that form. And so the language of call to action will matter a lot. The endless debate, should I say, "Send me my report" or "Get your report"? Or, you know, "me," "yours," "mine," or whatever. And that's, you know, that will always come down to what you're testing. But especially, what has the language been leading up to that point? Right? If you're always talking about booking a consultation, then you don't want the call to action to be "book a meeting." There's like, there's a discontinuity there between the language and words that you've been using throughout.

Yeah, absolutely. And one final thing that I want to add to the anatomy of a great web page, which I think a lot of people, they imagine that this is something that they just throw up a testimonial for. But those are trust builders. And those could be testimonials, but they can also be, uh, trust indicators that have an icon for, let's say, a checkout page, right? You want to have, uh, security icons of different kinds, whether that is some type of encryption, or even badges for, uh, guarantees, badges for, uh, you know, people can ask for a refund with no questions asked. So trust builders aren't just very specific things. Trust builders are things that will help you, whatever they are, that will help someone feel comfortable with the next step. You know, feeling like whatever they give out is not going to be in any harm's way. So, you know, and I think here's where people tend to go, "Oh, I'll just throw up a section of testimonials and that'll be it." Um, but that's not it. In itself, it's a good thing to have. But just testimonials on their own are not going to help build trust because people will look at them, probably unless those testimonials are formatted right and they're covering specific objections, maybe, and talk about what life was before, what life is now, what life is in the future. Uh, they won't incite trust. They might even actually do the opposite, and people will become suspicious of them. So, yes, having the right type of trust builders are going to matter a lot. Um, and not just throwing them at the bottom below a call to action, like, guess, like a last thought. But throughout a web page, you want to have trust be communicated successfully and not neglected until the very end of a page. So, just to wrap up, having a clear value proposition, user-focused design, intuitive navigation, effective calls to action, and finally, trust builders. Those are the elements of a great and converting web page.

So let's talk about laying out your page. Um, we hear a lot about formulas, which I love to use. I think that they're a great tool for a copywriter. And it's usually like the, the people that don't know about writing great copy that don't use formulas. So it's really good to use those formulas to help frame your argument, to make sure that you're like hooking people and pulling them in and making every part compelling. Okay, so formulas are good. We learned about AIDA: Attention, Interest, Desire, Action. That's a really popular one. Uh, PAS is Problem, Agitation, Solution. That's a popular way, often for email in particular, or for like lead gen pages. That's a really good formula there. Now, I know you have a formula that you use pretty religiously, from what I understand. So I'd love you to talk about that.

Sure. Yeah. So, um, first thing I'll say, that the formula I use has been used for a long time. And in my mind, it even encompasses some of those, like AIDA. I think it's a better version of AIDA. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So it's the four Ps. Um, this is used by a lot of people. It's taught by the American Writers and Artists Inc, which teaches copywriting. Like they kind of wrote the book on copywriting, if you want to check it out. And the four Ps stand for Promise, Picture, Proof, Push. Promise, Picture, Proof, Push. Uh, I'm sure you've heard about it. In fact, I know you've written about it. No, it's a good one though. I want to hear more. I want to hear from you. Time. Yeah, I use it in basically everything. It does meld a little bit in my head, but it, I use it all the time. I'm always thinking of this. So the first thing is the promise. What is a promise? It's a big benefit expressed clearly. If you look at a headline, they're often a promise. There is other stuff in there like intrigue and curiosity and specificity, but it's a promise. I've got an example here, and this is from a, a, a green juice sales page, like an organic juice. It says, "Now you can get all your healthy superfoods in one drink with no shopping, no blending, no juicing, and no cleanup." Now, that was their headline, but that, to me, that's a promise. And then what comes next is you build on that promise. You tell them more about that promise. And once you've clearly stated your promise, so you get them, so they're like, "Oh, I'm interested in getting all my healthy superfoods in one drink because I want to live longer or whatever." Yeah. You move into your picture copy. Now, some people do not like to use picture copy. Some clients I've written picture copy for, like, "Can you take that out? I don't like the sound of that." Um, but it is used in sales letters. And picture copy is really emotive, um, imaginary kind of copy where you get the reader to start thinking about how that benefit is going to change their life. Um, you know, it's, it's like, imagine how you feel when you go down the beach and, you know, everyone's looking at your banging beach body or something like that. And they actually start to imagine it in their head. But if you don't want to include picture copy, I think it's a good thing. But if you don't want to, instead, you can focus on knocking down objections. So, um, you've made this promise, and straight away in their head, they go, "That's an amazing promise, but it's not going to work because of this." So you can get into their mind and start knocking down those objections instead. If, if, if you don't want to do picture copy, that's okay. My suggestion. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So then from there, we're going to go into our proof. And this is so important because why would we ever believe such a big, audacious promise? It's too much. So, yeah, when, when you make a big promise, you need a lot of proof. And, uh, I can't remember the copywriter's name, but it may be Gary Bencivenga. But he says, you know, you should focus more on your proof than your promise. It's better to have more proof and less promise than the other way around. Makes sense. Who's gonna believe you, right? Yeah. Yeah. You, if, um, you say, "Joe, like, I'm the best crepe maker in the world." I'd say, "That sounds unlikely. Do you have any proof?" "Of course I do. Of course. Like, big time proof." "Okay, okay. We'll see it later." Um, so what is proof? Proof can be testimonials, figures, graphs, before and after pictures, sales screenshots. Yeah. Sorry, what was that? Oh, demos. I added in. That was my first. When you said the crepe thing, now I have to prove it by demonstrating. Exactly. Whipping it up. You know, and on landing pages, especially, um, it can be like visual proof as well. Like, you know, I've seen in New York Times or whatever. Just little images like that can serve as proof. But you want to build your proof. And then finally, once you've established your proof, and, and by the way, the promise is constantly being repeated throughout. Should be repeated throughout your copy. Should remind them of why they're reading this. Um, and repeated how? Like, do you think verbatim, or you're saying like, just re-image the same promise that you used up at the top? Yeah, I would say re-image. Um, you don't want to get, like, just overly repetitive, but I mean, sometimes depending on the length of the copy, you may repeat it exactly as you did initially. Um, but, you know, you might do it in your subhead or something like that. Um, you know, it's another angle on the initial promise. So, so, so once you've done that, finally, you want to push them. You want to tell them what action you want them to take. And this is so important. Um, I, some people, I guess beginners, think that they don't have to do this, that people are just going to figure out what they have to do. And it's not true. You should treat the reader like a fifth grader. And I don't mean that in, um, like a pejorative way. I, I just mean make it really simple for them to take the action that you want them to take. Just lay it out and tell them exactly what you want them to do. So whether it's, you want them to order now, or you want them to enter their name and email address, just simply tell them. And if you can tie it back into the benefit or that big promise, so that the action that they're about to take, um, you know, it's not like, "Pay $500." They're not thinking about that. They're thinking about the benefit, what they're going to get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's an interesting word, "push." I know people have a problem with that sometimes when you talk about that formula because it sounds so aggressive. But I think it's important to keep it in mind because it's not nudge. It's not lightly suggest. It's like, tell them what to do. And then do the actions that it takes to get them to do it. Which is a bit aggressive. But we're not saying swear at them, yell at them, make them like feel like manipulated into doing it. But rather, if you say the price, make sure you make it sound like it's a low price, or like, "Wow, they're really getting this first deal here." Um, do the things that that make your action a real push rather than just like a, "Oh, and by the way, if you feel like it right now, you could always sign up if you feel like." Which is like what most calls to action actually do feel like, sadly. So it's, uh, you know, if there's often like, um, comparisons made between copywriting and kind of relationships. And if, if you think about, if you're like, "Hey, um, if, if you wanna like, we could, you know, maybe go out or get something. We don't have to go out, but..." Oh my, so weak. It's right. Who's gonna say yes? You'd have to really, really, really, really, really want to go out with that person to get to agree to that. Otherwise, you'd be like, "I'm good, actually. I'm okay. I'm just gonna go get by myself. Thanks." Yeah. No, thanks. You're weird. Um, I'm out of here. So, yeah. Whereas if you strongly just said, "Hey, you and me, let's go out this Friday. You know, I've got two tickets to whatever, Mega Death." Yeah. Mega Death. Mega Death. And then do that. And then right. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was, uh, helpful up until the Mega Death point, which I apologize for. That was very helpful.

A common problem that I see, Sam, is I'm sure you've seen it a lot too, is people drive, uh, PPC ads, emails, all of these different places, Facebook ads, they drive them to their homepage. Right? It's shocking, actually, to think people still do this. But I, I'd love to hear your thoughts and have you kind of work through the difference between a landing page and a homepage, so we can better understand when you need to use a homepage, yeah, when you need to drive traffic there, if ever, and when to use a landing page. So can you help us out with that?

Yeah, to start, I would say, don't ever. And this is my opinion, but I think it's valid. Don't ever drive pay-per-click traffic or anything like that to a homepage. Only. And then leave it at that. I think that's a great way to burn money. It's like just piling up together and lighting on fire and then watching it. So stop doing that if you are doing that. And let's not do that ever again. And it's important here to just understand the difference between a homepage and landing pages. Often comes down to what purpose they serve and who it is that's coming there and why they're showing up. You know, there's, there's different, you know, different backgrounds, different intents, different sources in terms of where they're coming from. Uh, often someone will land on a homepage, probably from searching in Google, but so they're looking for information at that point, or maybe asking a question. Whereas a landing page, usually people are there because they clicked on an ad, or they clicked on a specific call to action in an email, or maybe even a social media status update. But there's more specificity to that as opposed to a general searching for a software, right? Or searching for a CRM software. If that's what you're searching for, then you're, you have a broader intent for what you're looking for. Okay. People landing on a homepage, they might know you, but probably not. And people end up on a landing page, probably do not know who you are, but they responded to something that they saw. And so there's a specificity to what they're looking for. Okay. So purpose and goal of who you are, that matters a lot. So the first thing I want to talk about is audience and purpose and goal. And with a landing page, it's even just a, the name of the landing page. People land there because they respond to something and they're looking for something that's specific. So situations where you could use a landing page are things like, um, signing someone up for a course, a mini course, maybe there's an opt-in. So they want to become a lead. Or they don't become a lead, but for you, they become a lead. They don't have that in mind, "I'm gonna be a lead." Yeah. But they, there's something on that page that's, uh, that is very focused. Like there's an offer of some kind to do something. And so you're either looking to generate leads for yourself, uh, maybe you're trying to sell a product. Even this is common for like e-commerce. Might to have a very dedicated product page, um, or you have, you know, some other goal in terms of expressing a very clear benefit of what they should do now. And so that sounds a bit vague, but what I mean there is maybe you're selling an ebook, or maybe you want someone to get something for free. And so you have a compelling offer where someone is responding to what led up to it, and they land on that page and they're expecting to see something very specific. Whereas a homepage, it's, people tend to have broader expectations when they land on a homepage, right? They're looking to answer questions, maybe they have several questions as opposed to one single thing that they come with in mind for. And so there, you have a bit of leeway in terms of just what comes with a homepage. But you still want to have clarity on value prop, clarity on, uh, why they should care about your page, right? So just keeping in mind where your audience is coming from, the purpose for the why they're there on that page, whatever page it is, and just the goal of that page itself. Uh, the goal of a landing page is usually very singular, very specific. Whereas a homepage tends to have multiple avenues someone can go to as opposed to one single thing. And that leads me to the next point, which is navigation. And along with that, also content. So landing pages should have very little navigation involved. Yeah. You know, you're not looking to have multiple links leading people elsewhere. You want to have less navigation, maybe not even a header at all, except possibly a logo. Uh, the footer should be very clean as well, and at most have a policy link or, you know, terms of service link. And the content on these pages, this comes down to a bit of a layout as well, but the content on a landing page is tends to be very center-focused on the page itself. So there's not a whole lot of visual distractions either above or on the sides. Whereas a homepage could present more content sections to it that addresses different aspects of what you're offering. Whereas a landing page will have very specific, you know, here's headline, subheadline, body copy, and possibly a form for a call to action. Right? Which that fourth point, too, is call to action. And of itself, on a landing page, there should only be one singular call to action for whatever it is. Click to download, fill something out, or click through to go to the next, uh, next step. A homepage tends to have several possible call to actions. You should still have clarity on what someone should do on a homepage, but given that you have a header, you have links at the header, you have, uh, different sections, there are more ways that someone can go on a homepage as opposed to one singular next step. Right? So there's more, more room for people to go wherever they want to go. And this is also where you kind of need to guide them through as well. So not, don't neglect a homepage because it's a homepage and you figure, "Oh, there's going to be a bunch of stuff on it." You still want to have clarity in terms of capturing people's attention and then moving them through to the next step, whatever that is that you want them to do and to go to. So for a homepage, it might be that you want to visit another page, maybe you wanted to go to a pricing page or benefits page, maybe you wanted to take a specific call to action, but that might not necessarily be geared towards buying right now. There might be a need for to nurture them, for example. Maybe you want to watch a video, or maybe you want them to just read the content that's on there. Um, as opposed to a landing page is very geared towards a specific outcome right now, and as soon as possible, and how them move through the next part of your funnel. So just understanding where the page fits in helps you know what the difference is between a landing page or a homepage.

So formatting your web copy is kind of a huge deal to make sure people can actually read your web copy. So Mary, you have a great design background and you're a copywriter. So I mean, who better to talk about formatting your web copy than you? So I'd love to hear any, any tricks you've got, what's up your sleeve as a designer who works on, who's a copywriter too?

Okay, well, the most important tip I think to start with is to use headings and subheadings on your web page. And I look at them as the organization committee because they actually organize your copy into bite-sized chunks that scanners can easily notice. Um, and scanners absolutely love them. So that's why you need to make sure that they stand out from the body copy. And here's how you can do that. Size them so that they create a hierarchy for your messaging. And what I mean by that is make the headlines the largest type size on your page because they are the most important. And then subheadings, they have to be smaller than headlines, but bigger than body copy. And then other ways to make them, the headings and subheadings stand out is to make them bold, put them in color, or center them on the page. Now, I'm going to show you an example of Groove and what they did on their homepage. So this is the headline, the main line, and that's bigger than the subheading down here. And you see that they bolded both and they're centered in the middle of the page.

Tip number two is to put an attention grabber like an image or an icon or a button next to your most important messages because this is going to pull a scanner's eye into your message. And it's another technique for organizing your content into chunks. Okay. And I'm going to show you how Groove did that right here. So they have an image next to these, this content. And they do that in all three of these sections. And even here. And you'll see that they have some white space in between these sections. And that actually will help pull a person's eye into your content as well. But you, when you're picking out these images, you've got to make sure that they're relevant to your content, otherwise the visuals will distract users from your message and often confuse them. So Groove actually does a really good job with this one. This content here talks about add-ons, free add-ons. And these icons are their add-ons, which is really, it's really awesome because it's so relevant to what they're talking about in the context. Yeah, it like reinforces the copy itself, right? And if you see like a Slack icon, and you see a Twitter icon, and Olar, and these other things that you already recognize, having that in the copy and then reinforced in the iconography is, it's just like extra power for the message. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

So my third formatting tip is to use lists. And there's two kinds of lists: there's short lists and long lists. And short are four items or less. And they're really useful for information that you really need your audience to see and understand because it prevents that information from getting lost in sentences. And long lists are five items or more. And they're just a great visual to show people that they're getting a lot of something, right? They're getting a lot of value, they're getting a lot of benefits, they're getting a lot of features. And people love it when they feel like they're getting a lot of something. So, um, use a symbol before each item in your list because that's going to help people notice the list. Yes. A study by the Nelson Norman Group found that 70% of the people will read a list that has a bullet, and only 55% will read a list that doesn't have a bullet. The power of symbols. Yeah. You can be creative with your symbols. You don't have to use bullets. You can use diamonds, tildes, check marks, stars, or an hour right. But your symbol has to match the personality of the web page. So for example, if the web page is for a bank, they're a little conservative, so using a multicolor star is probably not going to work that well. But a nice elegant tilde, that might look really good.

Okay, so the fourth tip is to make your photos tell a better story by adding captions. And people really don't realize how valuable this real estate is. But a David Oglivy did a study and he found that when captions were under images, they were read 300% more than the surrounding body copy. So put captions under your important visuals and screenshots. And in this real estate, put messages about value, features, and benefits.

My last tip is to make typography use easy to use. Now, the number one goal of your typography is to make your copy more, more readable. Yes. And this is a pet peeve of mine because there's so many designers that take typography and they just make it like fancy or elegant, and then people can't read it. And if they can't read it, they're going to leave your web page. So you got to focus on readability here. And here are some ways you can do that. Use larger type sizes, especially for body copy. Type size should be no smaller than 13 pixels. I use 16 or 18 pixels usually in my body copy. And have ample line spacing between your sentences. That the white space that goes between the sentences, um, it's also known as letting, right? And the rule of thumb generally is that that line spacing should be one and a half times bigger than the type size that you use in your sentence. So for example, if your type was 14 pixels big, then the line spacing should be 21 pixels.

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Writing headlines is maybe the biggest subject that there is in copywriting. It's especially when you're, when you're starting out, you have a lot of questions about this really critical piece of copy. So Rob, can you share with us some quick tips or techniques for writing better headlines?

Yeah, absolutely. So writing, uh, headlines are really important, um, for a couple of reasons. Um, Jay Abraham is famous for having said that if you improve your headline, that you can improve your response by 16 times. Um, any, if that's only half right, uh, that's a pretty, a pretty good reason to even think about your headlines, right? Right. David Ogilvy, um, who's, uh, done a lot of testing on headlines in direct response, did while he was alive, um, talked about how five times more people read your headline than your body copy. And so it's really important to get your headline to write. So, question then is, what does a good headline do? Um, well, first, uh, it communicates clearly. Um, it's not too clever, it doesn't try to be too cute. Um, it's usually really good at grabbing your attention and saying, "Hey, this is something I need to pay attention to and continue reading." Good headlines target a problem or the pain that a customer is dealing with when they come looking for your product. And it promises a benefit or a solution for, uh, what it is that they're, uh, looking for. Usually, they're written in the customer's voice. And it makes the customer want to read on and to continue with, uh, with the web page, the blog post, or whatever it is that your headline is on.

So the best way I think to, um, start writing headlines is to default to using formulas. Why do you use a formula? Um, number one, because they work. Um, and number two, because it saves time. Um, just as an example, um, a writer named Ken Ziegler, who, um, is the head writer at Squarespace, um, set a personal goal to write 500 headlines for Crest toothpaste. Um, he did it. They're, they're some of them are good, some of them aren't so good. But it's a fascinating exercise. The real, um, thing that, um, is amazing about it is that it took him 200 hours to write 500 headlines. That's five weeks of time. And nobody, nobody has time for that, right? Especially if they're trying to start a business or run a blog or trying to make any kind of money in what they're doing. You just don't have that kind of time. And so a formula can really help you cut, uh, time down and focusing on, um, what it is that, uh, you want your customer to know.

So just a couple of examples, um, and there are hundreds of these, uh, online. Um, Copy Hackers or other, um, places online. But, um, some examples of formulas that you might want to try. So number one, "How to blank even if you blank." That is, um, how to get something or do something even if, um, it's really hard or you don't have a skill. So an example, "How to write a book even if you failed 11th grade English," or "How to dominate the bestseller list even if you can't type." Right? This would be a great kind of a formula to use on a homepage of a website. Second example, "How to blank like blank," so, or "Do blank like blank." Um, the first blank being, um, something a benefit or something that you want to do. And the second blank being of an expert or a person who is really good at doing this. So, "How to save money like a professional accountant," or "How to learn to play drums like Neil Peart." Right? So, and this is the kind of headline that you might want to use, um, on a, on a product page or, um, various other parts, you know, subheads that kind of thing, where you really trying to just demonstrate a benefit, um, to, uh, to what you're describing. And the third example, "Three reasons why blank something blank." So, an example, "Three reasons why your doctor isn't telling you the truth about your diet," or "Three reasons that, three things that your attorney isn't telling you about, um, how to, how to apply for a divorce," something like that. And it would be a really good headline to use, say, on a blog post, right? So, um, somewhere, uh, you know, where you're explaining things, but you're not necessarily selling something with that particular headline, right?

So, um, when you're using headlines or formulas for headlines, oftentimes people will say, "Well, that's copying. It's plagiarism. You can't do that." And that's just not true. Um, you're not copying somebody else's headline work. You're adding in your own words, your own product descriptions. Um, may spark an idea. You're changing, um, adjectives, um, verbs, whatever. Um, you're really not copying, you're making it your own. But there is a catch. Uh, and that is that you really shouldn't start with writing headlines. Um, it's good to write headlines, but you've got to start somewhere else. And that is with your customer research. You need to understand the product. You need to understand the problem the product solves. You need to understand what's going on in your customer's life when they start looking for your product. And you need to understand how they talk about your product. Once you have those words, that's what you plug into the formula to make it work. And if you, if you do the upfront research combined with a formula, uh, you're almost guaranteed with a little bit of work to come up with something to do a pretty good job.

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So Rob, there's a bit of a debate among writers and copywriters and marketers, um, over the idea of being writing in a clear way or writing in a clever way. I'd love your insights on whether you should be clear or clever.

Well, it's, yeah, it's a great question, right? So, first, why be clever? Number one, it adds personality to what you're trying to say. It can create some curiosity and interest, uh, with you, what you're communicating to your customer. Can add emotion, which is really important because so many sales are done on an emotional basis, even when we think about them rationally. And it's the kind of thing that you often see in brand advertising, the kind of ads you'll see at the Super Bowl or the Academy Awards, that kind of thing. Writers, by the way, love clever wordplay. Uh, we, we like words, we like to sort of organize them in new and unique ways, and alliteration, even puns. Um, and so we sort of, uh, sometimes want to default to that. Um, unfortunately, that results maybe in a little bit of dad humor, the kind of jokes that your dad will tell you. And it can create problems when your value proposition needs more explanation, uh, than what you can pull off with a clever headline.

So then maybe, why should you be clear? Number one, because it's really easy to communicate a value proposition with clear copy. Uh, it often can zero in on the pain that your product solves, uh, for the customer. And it's the kind of thing that you often see in sales, on sales pages, or conversion-oriented copy. The flip side of that, though, is that it can be really boring and it can look really, really salesy if it's not done right. So my favorite example of a, um, headline or a tagline that's both clever and clear is Mucinex. The headline or the tagline is, "The nighttime sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, fever, so you can rest medicine." Right? Very clever alliteration, not alliteration, but repetition of these, um, symptoms, along with a very clear, um, benefit. Um, an example, uh, of what not to do is a banner at a store for IBM Watson, their, uh, artificial intelligence, um, product that they're launching and trying to sell. It was simply this: "Welcome to the cognitive age." What the heck does that even mean? Way too clever, right? It's, it's way too clever and it doesn't communicate anything.

Yeah, and it, I think it thinks it's clear too, right? It's only a few words and it's not fluffy or something like that. Exactly. A really good example that, um, I've pulled from the Copy Hackers book on on persuasion, is the test that Copy Hackers ran for Luvocracy. It's a, um, matching service based off of Facebook. Um, and the headline that Copy Hackers wrote for it was, "Friends don't let friends date strangers." Which is maybe a little too clever. But when it's paired with a subhead that was very clear, and the subhead was, "Luvocracy is the smart, private way to find love in your friends' Facebook circles," it sort of matches that fun element of the clever with the very clear value proposition that comes with that subhead. So those are some really good examples of of, um, how you can do it. If you're going to be clever, don't obscure the product, like the IBM ad. Don't obscure the value proposition. That still has to come through. And don't do cheap puns. If you're going to be clear, don't be boring. Don't use jargon. Make sure that you're using verbs and descriptives that add interest to what your customer is reading. But most importantly, if you can, you want to be both clear and clever.

One of the worst parts of writing copy for so many people is working on body copy. People hate it. It's like a last thing that you do. You deprioritize it. You much rather work on your headline than on body copy. So we thought we'd bring in a bear to make it. Now we have Kira here. And she, Kira, you have a lot of good, um, recommendations for writing body copy.

I do. Now that I'm here, I do. I do. So I think a good place to start is with benefits versus features and highlighting the benefits. So really tackling why your customers should care about what, what you do and what you've created for them. Okay. And so an easy way to think about it is through a formula I created, which is basically creating a bulleted list of the benefits and adding in after you list the benefit, because, and then add the feature. So a really good example is, uh, SameBox, which is an email management service I use all the time. So the benefit would be to say, "You'll save five hours every single week because we have a new unsubscribe button." And it's as simple as that. You can really pull those benefits from doing your research ahead of time. So you don't have to create all the benefits from your head. You can really do research and study your customers to find out those benefits.

That's awesome. I love, I love the formula. I love finding your benefit and your voice of customer message and use because, and then add your feature in there. That's awesome. Great body copy tip. And then also, so you can add credibility to make your body copy more meaningful by adding testimonials to your body copy. So a lot of people will kind of shove the testimonials to the bottom of the page or maybe put it on a separate page. And so there's a really cool study from Content.com where they took all four of the testimonials that were at the bottom of the page. They basically moved two up above, and then there was a call to action, and then two below. Okay. So, um, by doing that, they improved the conversion by something like 64.53%, which is pretty crazy. So, okay, you know, it's important to use those testimonials to help you build trust. So when you're building out your body copy and you've got features and benefits and you're working down the page, integrate testimonials into your body copy rather than like putting them as a secondary or an afterthought. Exactly. Yeah, because otherwise people may not see it. Um, they just may not pay attention to it. And so the last thing is that you want to make your copy scannable. So, um, in order to do that and to make it really clear so people can read it and they're not scared away by it, you can add, like I said, those bullet points with the benefits and features. Um, you could add different subheadings in. You can embolden copy if you want certain phrases to stand out, certain words to stand out. Add images in there. And again, add those testimonials. All super actionable, great tips.

So Lanna, maybe one of the biggest topics ever in copywriting is the old features versus benefits debate. So can you talk to me a bit about what's a feature, what's a benefit, when should I use what?

Sure. So most of the time, you're going to want to use benefits instead of features. And the easiest way to tell the difference between features and benefits is features tend to be more technical, while benefits really connect the dots for the user about what your product or solution is going to do for them or what problem it's going to solve for them. Um, so for example, if you have an alarm clock or an alarm app that you're trying to popularize, you wouldn't say, "You know, my alarm has seven different wakeup modes." You would really want to say, what is the end benefit to the user there? Oh, well, you're going to wake up refreshed. You're going to wake up feeling like you didn't need an alarm. So you just have to kind of sell instead of tell. It's just connecting the dots for them.

That's an excellent point. And I love the little clock guy too. Thank you. Um, another fun example that I like to, uh, tell people about is it comes from Claude Hopkins, the OG of copywriting, as I like to refer to him. So he was the person who got people to use toothpaste originally. Um, and if you think about toothpaste, it's kind of gross. I don't know why, uh, we don't just call it green tooth globs. Um, but Claude Hopkins figured out the problem. He engineered, actually, something that people had to think about as a problem, which was the film on their teeth. And then he said, "Feel minty fresh when you use Pepsodent toothpaste." Which is how he created this habit that millions of Americans and hopefully people worldwide have. Nice. Yeah, you can get people to try your product that way. Yeah. Very cool. Good example. Thank you.

Um, so, you know, you might think, "I don't know what the benefits maybe are." And that's where you can, um, interview your customers and just hear what they're saying about your product or solution. Um, you can even take the words right out of their mouth. If they say, "This made me feel better," or "I find, for instance, that I wake up feeling more refreshed," then you just use those words. You don't even need to reword it. Amen. Um, and as for where you should use features and benefits, um, my suggestion is, uh, as many places as possible, or benefits, rather, not just features. Um, I would say start with the header, because you need people to read past the header. So put your biggest and best benefit in the header. Another great place would be in your bullet copy, because then you have sort of a bam, bam, bam, row of benefits that the user is getting. Yes. Excellent. Um, so it's not necessarily that you don't ever want to use features. Um, there are sometimes when it's appropriate. For example, if you have someone who is at a very high level of awareness already, and they're looking for certain specifications. If someone's shopping for a new MacBook, and they know that they need, you know, this certain amount of RAM or this extra visual card, you do want to include that for those people. But that all comes back to knowing who you're selling to. Excellent. So by and large, lead with the benefits, except in cases where you

believe or know that your prospect knows all the benefits and now just wants to move toward buying it. In that case, lead with features. Is that about right? Right.

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So, a big question that a lot of us have, Gavin, like we've talked about in a video series with Mary Lou Tyler. We were talking about how to use stages of awareness to figure out, um, how long your copy should be, or really what you should be writing and putting on a page, or in an email, or in an ad. Um, so the question does come up a lot about how long your copy should be. How long should your homepage be? How long should a landing page be? How long should an onboarding email be versus a sales email versus a quick update email? So you have all these questions. Stages of awareness is one way to answer those. But I know you have a few other techniques that you use to figure out how long your copy should be. So I would love to hear those from you.

Yeah, sure. Okay. So, um, I'm gonna give you a big rule that I use for copy, but, um, and and two smaller ones as well. But first, I just want to talk about, I think a lot of people have a fear of long copy, and it's unfounded. Long copy, um, sells billions, if not trillions of dollars every single year. So, um, I don't think anyone out there should be afraid of long copy. Um, so my first big point is that your copy should be as long as it needs to be to make a sale or to get your conversion. Um, okay. Yeah. So some people will read every little scar of your copy, um, and you want that information to be there for them because they need that to make a, you know, an educated decision. Other people are just going to scan read your bullets, read your subheads. So that they're not going to read it all, but, um, they're still going to have a structure there for them to go and find what they they need. So that's the, the first rule is, um, it should be as long as it needs to be to sell the product or or to get the conversion.

Okay. Okay. So the, the second idea is that I think it depends on the complexity of the product or the idea that you're trying to sell. So if you have a really simple product, of course, your copy doesn't need to be that long. And an example of this is an offer. If you, you know, if you're having 50% off, um, uh, mittens or something, it's not complex. You don't need to do a lot of selling. People who want cheap mittens are going to get it. So your copy can be short, short. But if it's a more complex idea, um, then, you know, it's going to take longer. And then the second little point is that it depends on the medium. So we have a Google ad or a Facebook ad that's short. Like the, the medium itself is g to like, you know, shorten up the copy. And you've also, I guess, got to think of people's attention span there. And then, you know, we move on a bit and we might have, um, a display back, which maybe you can fit a bit more copy in there. And then you go to an email promotion, and then landing page, long copy sales page, catalog, you know, up on that end, we're getting to maybe 30,000 words, or a short novel or something, you know. In so think about, you know, what it is you're writing. An email, you're not going to want to write. I don't know. I, I, in my mind, I think the maximum, like the be about 2,000 words. I don't know if you have experience with that.

That's a lot of words. Yeah. I mean, it does depend, but it goes back to what you were saying about, will make it as long as it has to be, which also has to do with stages of awareness, right? Like how much do they know about you? How much do they care about the subject that you're talking about? How much do they need to know before they click through or take your action?

Yeah, yeah. And I think also the context. Like if your email is the third in a series, and you're just reminding them that the sale ends at midnight or something like that, you don't need to go over everything again. Just go, "Hey, it's ending soon. Do you want it?" Exactly. You know, get it. And that's it.

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Testimonials are fantastic. In theory, at least. A lot of testimonials that I've seen where clients hand over their list of testimonials, they're, they're kind of not great testimonials. They're saying the wrong things, or they're saying nothing at all. Um, so I would love to hear from you, Mary, if you have some tips, some techniques, some strategies for turning testimonials into great testimonials, or just in the first place, finding or acquiring those great testimonials. Can you share those with us?

Yeah. Well, one of my favorite tips is testimonials that reinforce a brand's unique value proposition because that provides evidence that the brand actually does deliver on the value that they promise. And that type of social proof builds trust with people that are reading the, um, the testimonial. Okay. So Groove Software, actually, they do a real, they have a really nice testimonial that reinforces their unique value proposition of simplicity. It's a video testimonial on their webpage. And Groove's client, Alan Branch, explains that 10 minutes after signing up for the free trial, his organization was using Groove as their customer support tool. It was literally that easy. So, but, but what would have been better is a customer testimonial where they describe the value of that simplicity. So I wrote one up, um, for Groove. And it's, "Because Groove Software was so easy to use, we were able to improve our response time to support tickets by 25%." So that 25%, that shows you some real value that they got from Groove Software. And that actually leads into another really useful testimonial, and that's one with the metric. Because metrics give specific, measurable results. And proven results are persuasive sales tools. And metrics are a trust builder because they put data behind the value that a product or service delivers. Yeah. So another good metric testimonial is one that's on Groove's homepage that reads, "More than 3,000 companies manage support better with Groove." So that number, 3,000, that shows people, it builds a lot, a lot of trust. So if I looked at that, I'd say, "Wow, a lot of people using that software. It must be pretty good." So the third testimonial, useful testimonial, is one that overcomes sales objections because they're very powerful at convincing people to buy. Spin Selling experienced a 58% increase in sales after they mastered objection handling. So here's another example I wrote up that knocks out one of the biggest objections, which is price. "Groove wasn't the cheapest software we looked at, but seeing how our customer support ratings improved after we started using the help desk software, I'm convinced the extra money was well worth it." So fears are at the heart of most objections. And these emotional triggers can make a prospect jump right out of the sales funnel pretty quickly. So that's why testimonials where clients explain how their fear was alleviated can be such strong allies in overcoming objections. So my fourth tip is to only use testimonials that are believable. Avoid outrageous sensationalism, which just seems impossible. Instead, your testimonials should focus on the real value that a product delivers, true benefits that clients have experienced, and true stories that clients had about a product. Or, and you shouldn't edit the testimonials. You clean up a couple typos. For the most part, just use word for word what the customers tell you. So the last tip is to use testimonials that have names and images. Okay. Putting a real identity behind a testimonial makes it credible because it's believable. And identities, you know, when there's an identity, I think it builds a nice relationship for the reader. They start to have an emotional connection between to the client that's actually giving the testimonial. And here are some ways to make testimonials more credible. Always publish a full name with a testimonial. And if it's a B2B product, put the person's title as well. You know, a first name just looks way suspicious to me. And, um, it could be made up and fake. The hardest type of testimonial to fake is video, which is why it's one of the most powerful testimonials. And Unbounce tested two testimonials, each one had an image and a client name, the full name against a video. And the video yielded a 25% uplift in free trial signups. So if you can't do a video, then add a photo of the client to the testimonial.

Okay, great tips. That's a lot to work with to make, uh, testimonials a lot better than what we often see.

Well, I think they're going to make them a lot more meaningful to prospects. And that's important for convincing them to buy.

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When we're talking about conversion copywriting, we often talk about, uh, "swiping your message from your customer," um, which kind of brings up the whole idea of where your copy should come from. And it makes me wonder, like, when should a person use a testimonial instead of copy? So do you have any thoughts on that, Joel?

Yeah, absolutely. So your customers can always be more persuasive than you are. And there's a lot of reasons for that. But the time to use a testimonial, there's a few different situations I would bring them in. So the first is when you need your lead, or you need your audience to see themselves in your copy in a way that you can't do on your own. So the story of someone like them. Um, so when you choose testimonials, for example, make sure it's from a company or from a person that is related to, or or the same as, that audience member. Another area to use testimonials in where it might be better than just your standard copy is areas of friction. So when you've got a pricing section, or you're, you're making the big ask, and the person is still on the fence, if they can see a story of someone who made the decision and got the outcome that they're looking to get, that can help push them over the finish line. Uh, you can also use testimonials to support your claims. So you might understand very well, having read, you know, feedback from customers, what they're looking for. And you might even have a claim to match. But you can use those testimonials to support a benefit you've just said that you offer or provide. So if you have a product that, say, slashes the time to do something in half, having a testimonial immediately follow that says, "We use this solution and it cut our time in half," just adds legitimacy and credibility. Uh, an interesting way to use testimonials, bite-sized, small ones, is in headers. Test them to see if leading with the story of someone similar, uh, might convert well. Um, and then you can also kind of use testimonials to create sort of a sense of social pressure. So if you have a lot of testimonials or a lot of feedback, and they're all glowing and saying that they've achieved what they wanted to, this can create a little bit of a feeling in the reader that they're on the outs, and now they want to be part of this group. They want to be part of that, you know, group of people that's gotten that outcome. So those are the ways that that you can use testimonials in your copy.

I think that's great. It brings to mind the "wall of love" that Slack uses, where it's all their great tweets and things people have sent in about them. And the, just your last point there, like this compounding effect of seeing all of these people who are like, "Love it! Love it! Love it!" You're like, "Well, crap, I want to be in with the group, right?" So I think that's a great, great point.

Yeah, I mean, if there is a time to be overwhelming with your copy, be overwhelming with praise from people who have achieved what you're promising. So, yeah, that's, that wall of love is a perfect example.

Knowing how important testimonials are, and oftentimes how hard they are to get, um, or remember to get, um, I thought it would be great to talk to you, Maggie, because I know that in your, throughout your career, your agency life, and everything, you've been the kind of go-to person when it comes to getting testimonials. Like, if someone needs a testimonial, Maggie's going to figure out how to get that testimonial. So I'd love to hear from you, what some of your tips are, if you have any processes, anything that you can do to help make it easier for people to get those so critical testimonials.

I love that we're talking about this because it is so, so important. But we all think about how we do this. What do we usually do? We go, "We're preparing a sales page, or we're getting some marketing collateral done, and oh no, we need a customer quote." Well, instead of doing that, create a system. It's really just part of that process. So let's say you run a services-based business, and you on and off work clients for projects because you're like a graphic designer or copywriter or something. Build that into your process so that when the project is wrapped, you know the client is happy. There's just a series of steps that you execute so you know it's going to be done. Because if every time you have to manually intervene and go, "Oh, yeah, I need to ask for the quote," then all this mental junk comes up and you get all psyched out. Or, if let's say you're a B2B software company, when in the process do your salespeople have that touchpoint? Build that into the process and the pipeline you use. So it becomes really, really seamless. Okay. But if you're gonna ask, you need to make this easy. This is where people make the biggest mistake because they don't make it easy to say. They ask, the request is vague, it's too onerous. So if you're, if you want them to do a video with you, say, "We're going to use a video. This is how we're going to use it," or "We're going to use this in written materials." Be very, very specific. Um, you can always go back and say, "Hey, are you cool with us using it for this?" But you need to get over that objection. And the objection is the biggest thing because if you work with big companies at all, it's impossible to get testimonials. It'll be written right in your contract, a lot of times, to say, "Oh, you know what? You can't. There's a no endorsement policy." So you're like, "Okay." And a lot of times, what people tend to do is they lie down. They go, "Oh, I can't have it." It's like, "No, you can't have it. You just need to get creative." So, yeah. Love this. This is one of my absolute favorite examples. So a couple years ago, I was working with a B2B software company, and they worked a lot with the US Military. And they did knowledge management software. And the, the results they were getting, like literally from out in the field, like, you know, you had people in Afghanistan being able to share knowledge to improve what they're doing, is really, really compelling and life-changing and life-saving stuff. But the US Military, the Air Force, can't give you a quote. So I'm like, "How can we do this?" Yeah. What ended up doing was, we did a bunch of joint speaking ops with the one Colonel. And then I had a video from the speaking ops where we could put that on the website. We could pull quotes. We included the quotes in articles. We were able to do all these things because it wasn't the traditional way of doing it. So get a little bit creative. Um, and just know that testimonial or endorsement doesn't have to be like a quote. It can be so many different things. So just, you know, get creative about how you ask. And really position it as a win for the person at the. The other thing in that too, if you can find someone who's a bit of a rule-breaker or likes to, you know, uh, go rogue, they're the perfect person to get to do this because sometimes they'll just be like, "I don't care about the rules. I'll just do it anyways." So usually you can use that for a while till someone catches up with you. This is not legal advice. I'm sure a lawyer somewhere just died inside. Big at the bottom of the screen, right? I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on television. So, you know, here, you know. But the other thing is, the, we go, "I'm gonna ask for a quote." Oh my gosh, most people, they're not a writer. You know, answering questions, writing a quote becomes really, really onerous. So maybe it's a testimonial. Uh, but most of all, you want to shape what questions you're going to ask them. So here's the cardinal sin of quotes: "Working with Maggie was really great." Yeah. What the hell does that mean? Maggie? "Working with Maggie was great." Yeah. Greatly annoying? Greatly frustrating? Greatly awesome? We don't know what that means. So if you can actually put that into a bucket and you ask like three really, that's three, three really specific questions to say, you know, "What was the before? What was the after? What are your results?" That's all you really need to know. And then, you know, the last part of this really comes down to, um, know your audience. Know who you're asking. So let's say it's a CEO of a company. Maybe they're going to be too busy. Maybe you can get them on the phone for five minutes and interview them and send them a quote for approval. Maybe you can't even get them to answer questions. Offer, write the quote for them to just tweak. And that's totally legitimate. When I started off years ago in public relations, I was mortified that people wrote quotes for approval. But this isn't, it's okay. You can totally do this. You have permission.

Yeah, we do it all the time. I agree. I think like there are so many opportunities where you just let it go because you're afraid to ask for, right? Like you're putting them out. But, okay, like you said, make it easy to say yes, which is like a cardinal rule of copywriting in general, anyway, right? Um, get that yes. So if you can write that testimonial, I've done that a lot, a lot. Write it. Write it the way you want it so you can get your best testimonial out of them. And then send it to them. And I don't think I've ever heard, "No, we're not going to do that." Like, it's always like, "Great, yep, here's my name." And you tell them all the good things. But it, too, right? We're gonna link to you. It's one more inbound link, right? Or whatever. But all those little pieces that makes it really easy to say yes.

Yeah, because really, ultimately, the, the job, the job of this is not just for your social proof. It's to make, really weave your customer or your client's story into part of your bigger story. Because that is so, so compelling. So if you can find the ways to turn them into the hero, instead of making your marketing all about you being the hero, that makes, it's a game changer. And I think that once you start get really, really intentional about that and telling your client stories, people can identify with that so much more than, you know, your, your brand or your face on your website. "Maggie was great to work with." Or whatever your quote was, right? Yeah, that's, that's no, no, no, right there. There's so many reasons that that's wrong. And that's one of the things, right? You're the hero, and that versus the client. So, yeah, your hero's journey should be your client's journey, not yours.

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So, both of you do a spectacular job in your businesses and for your clients with getting more visitors to opt in or subscribe. So I'd love to hear your tips, your techniques, your guesses for getting more people to sign up. Um, really, what kind of opt-in bait, in particular, people should be creating. Jessica, could you share with us?

Yeah, so that, and that's it. The biggest tip I have for people to, to get their visitors to sign up for their list is to create that awesome piece of opt-in bonus content. You, some people call it a carrot or an opt-in incentive, but it's that piece of content that gets sent to the user when they've given up their name and email address for it. Uh, and the first big thing you need to think about is your target audience. Who is it that you're trying to get to, you know, join your list? Right? Yeah. A big mistake copywriters make, I see this all the time, is that they create something that they want to create, that they're inspired to create, that's, but that's really for them. And they don't think about who it is they're trying to reach. So instead of creating something on inspiration, and I'm so guilty of that, I probably created or four pieces of really awesome content on inspiration early on in my business before I figured out what it was that my target audience really needed from me, and what I figured out what problem I could solve for them. And then I created that piece of content, and that really grew my list. So point number one, think about your target audience.

Good point. Great point. Yeah. And I should point out that newsletters, "Sign up for our newsletter." Oh, it's the worst thing to do right now. It really, we're drowning in a sea of newsletters, a sea of of just not great content hitting our inboxes every day. So do something better than a newsletter. Okay? Create a report, or a white paper, or an ebook. In fact, I've created an entire list of ideas for you for the Copy Hacker's audience that they can download after our talk today if they're interested. Cool. But yeah, there's so many options to choose from that are are better than "Sign up for our newsletter." Okay.

And to be boring? No, no. You can't afford, you can't afford to be like everybody else today. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. Absolutely.

Okay. Other, other tips?

Yeah. So think about how your audience actually consumes the content. Okay? So as, as copywriters, we often assume that everybody's a reader. And that is not entirely true. Some people prefer to listen. Some people prefer to watch. So when you're thinking about the format of the content you're creating, consider maybe adding a video, or a link to a podcast, an audio file for, for the audience that prefers those mediums. And not every piece of content you create needs to be this multimedia experience, but for some target audiences, that can really, really engage them and, and really make an impact. Right? And the next thing I wanted to mention, of course, is because this is something I'm very excited about these days, is long-form content. So when you're thinking about the content that you're going to create, you're gonna have to think about how long it's going to be. And there's a lot of reports out right now that say that long-form written content, so content over a thousand words, is performing better than short-form content. Maze and Buzz Sumo both came out with reports really recently that backed this up. And I'm a, I'm a huge advocate of long-form content. Again, we're just drowning a sea of crappy and mediocre content. And the long-form, well-researched, in-depth content can really, really stand out in the crowd. That said, think about your target audience. That, you know, that 20-page report on marketing trends, that might work great for a CMO. But if your target audience is moms of young kids, you need to create something more like a checklist or a tip sheet, probably. So as much as I love that long-form content, think about your target audience and what it is they need from you.

Yeah. Excellent, excellent. It reminds me of, um, of a study I saw from out of Leadpages where they had tested video series and ebooks and all sorts of different opt-in bait kind of options. Um, and the consistent winner for them, um, has been, um, an infographic. Really, it's like a gear guide. It just has five different, um, gear recommendations for X purpose. But it's just a simple visual that they can like save to a desktop and look at later or share around really easily. So, yeah, just like you're saying, keep learning about your audience and then tailoring and experimenting with that opt-in bait.

Yeah, yeah. It's all an experiment. But if you know your target audience really well, then you can nail it pretty quick.

Awesome. You know, here, what's it, really interesting about that? And we were talking about this earlier, but I literally spent the last year testing for my audience what they need. And discovering my audience of online entrepreneurs, they don't want to watch something that's 90 minutes long. They don't have that kind of time because that time is literally money in their business. So something like, let's say you're going to do a three-part video series, you could do that, but you better want that better be for the person who wants to be an entrepreneur. For someone who's actually busy, you know, we actually end up finding checklists, short, short templates, those things performed a lot better than a really high-quality, like, 35-page, you know, fully designed, beautiful ebook with like, 35 expert opinions. No, that was not our best converting opt-in. So by tracking that information over time, we're able to see, okay, you know, ref test and correct and refine it as we go. And the nice thing is, we've been doing that with clients too. And it's, you know, every time, everybody has a different result. Sometimes videos, sometimes is the thing, sometimes audio is the thing. You got to know how you best perform and how what type of things your audience actually wants to be consuming. And then, you know, the other part of that is too, is not just throwing it up on the opt-in bar on your homepage and being like, "Yeah, it's good. I'm out." You really need to be really intentional throughout your entire website and understand that people don't just show up at, like, your homepage. They show up at slash blog slash about, a piece of blog content. So being really specific about having different places for them to have that opportunity to opt-in and tailoring that. So the way you're going to offer it up at the end of a blog post as a content upgrade is going to be really different than how you're going to offer it up on a blog sidebar or on a resource page. So, you know, it's not just getting it up on that opt-in. You're gonna, that one opt-in bar, you're gonna have it throughout your site and really be able to maximize that and use that in a way that is smart and strategic so that as many people are coming to your site, you can convert as many of them as possible. Because otherwise, what's the point of all that traffic?

So true. That and that is the whole point, right? Ideally, is to get them in to your list. In so many cases, at least. And, you know, one thing I've told, I've been working with this a lot with clients and just in, you know, business friends and conversations, I'm like, "Do you have a Google, do you have a conversion goal set up in your Google Analytics?" And they look at me like, "Set one up for your opt-in." It is such an easy thing for you to say, "We now convert 14% of our traffic. So many sign up for these opt-ins." And you, you'll get to know what's really, really working versus just kind of guessing, you know, anecdotally, "Oh, we had 300 people sign up last night. That was all right."

Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. It's a great, um, action people can actually now just go take to learn what's working and what isn't.

Exactly. And, you know, the other thing that, you know, really, if you're trying to shape your opt-in content, you're really struggling, kind of going back to what Jessica was saying about your audience, let's know what your clients are telling you. What kind of problems are they had? So, uh, my business partner and I, we just launched a new piece of content called "The Newsletter Map." And the Newsletter Map was actual words out of multiple clients, month after month, they're like, "I, this newsletter, it's so hard. I don't know what I'm doing." You know, "How do I actually create that piece of content?" I was like, "Newsletter mod. Thank you." You know, really just start taking notes. Put them on sticky notes on your wall. Do whatever you need to do. Because that's the best thing. They're gonna identify with because they're gonna hear, they're gonna go, "Oh, wait. That's for me. I know it." It is amazing. It's another great example of just how listening closely to what people are saying and then not interpreting it, just taking it and running with it, right? Not saying, "Oh, I think they want something like a map." No, no. They said they want a map. A newsletter map. Make one and give it to them, right? It's, it's a great example.

Mickey, yeah. And we didn't jazz that up. It's literally called "The Newsletter Map." And see, you can see newsletters aren't dead. But, you know, the, like your point here, it's a follow, it's a piece of follow-up content. It's not your opt-in bonus, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. And don't just, I mean, if you're going to go to all this effort of getting them to sign up, oh my gosh, don't just throw. This is one of the most jarring things that we do. We throw them onto our newsletter list. Do we go, "Good luck. Have fun." No. Where's your, like, "Get to know you"? I, like, I call the welcome. That is the moment when someone is most excited about you and your business or your organization. Like, don't botch it. It's like going on a first date and having a really bad opening line. Need to really be intentional about what comes after that moment when they opt in. Not just one email to say, "Here's your free thing. Good luck." And people don't think about that enough.

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So, email marketing is a huge opportunity for people. And you hear a lot about drip campaigns. What is a drip campaign? Well, it's, uh, basically a way to nurture leads. Um, and I want to start off with a statistic I read that, uh, nurtured leads make 47% larger purchases. Um, so a drip campaign is a way of keeping your shoppers engaged until they're ready to buy. Uh, this was according to a research group. Um, basically, uh, a drip campaign is an automated series of emails. And you send them to someone who is new to your ecosystem, to your, your site, your world. Um, and the goal of drip marketing strategy, this is according to my friend Rafael Paez-Del, he has a great site. Check it out. The goal of the drip marketing strategy is to capture leads and then nurture the leads through a series of specific events and then eventually sell those leads your products or your services, basically without having to do any work. Um, I mean, other than create the drip campaign in the first place.

Sure, sure. Which is easy, right? Yeah. No problem. I just wrote one just now. Um, so there's, um, of course, a lot of different types of emails that this would work for. Be they cold emails, or nurture emails, retention emails, engagement emails. Um, a great drip campaigner is Ramit Sethi. Yeah, yeah. So I signed up, oh, a while back. I, I don't know. I, I signed up for people's email campaigns and then just get, take them all in. And I highly recommend people do that if you want to learn about how drip campaigns work. Yes. But he has a one-week MBA that he offers up. Not an actual MBA, I don't think. But it's an email series. And it's seven emails, one per day, that take you through, um, what he considers to be basically what you would require for an online business MBA. Um, and so they, they build slowly, giving you more information. And then the seventh email, it sort of culminates in this in a webinar. And he sort of just, just mentions a, um, a product that he has called the "Earn 1K Program." Earn your first $1,000 online. That's kind of the thing. Um, and then the eighth email, now we're out of that MBA, but I'm still in the, in the series, is his first real pitch for that product. And then now it moves into another strategy altogether, which is to tell me more about that program. And so it's dripped me from, "Hey, I'd like to get a one-week MBA" into, "Oh, I wonder what this Earn1K thing is all about." And so by virtue of just being interested in that first thing, now he's able to sell me something. And I feel like it's perfectly natural that he's doing so.

Yeah, yeah. And it's really good emails. Yeah, yeah. Um, so you can have something that is more sort of simple and linear like that. But a drip campaign can also be, uh, much more complex and use behavioral-based triggers. A good example of that, I found, was MailChimp. So I signed up for MailChimp, and way in advance of needing it, didn't, didn't do anything with it for a while. And by around the sixth email of a clearly linear progression, there was an email out of the blue that was like, "Hey, we noticed that you didn't start your first campaign yet. Do you need any help with that?" And they had a call to action to go to their support team. And then the emails that followed that were all about spoon-feeding me how to set up a campaign and why it's so important. And so by not doing what they had expected me to do at a certain point, they shuffled me into a different direction. And that's, that's the beauty of the drip campaign. So, um, you can move your buyers from, uh, maybe not unaware, completely unaware, otherwise they wouldn't have given you their email, but a, you know, low awareness stage through to a point where they're comfortable with you, and they know about your product, and now are basically ready to buy it.

Yeah. Um, so another, another interesting stat, if I could end with a stat on this one.

Sure, yeah. Let's hear it.

Here it is. Uh, automation is the best and easiest way to send timely, relevant emails to your subscribers. Relevant emails drive 18 times more revenue than broadcast emails. So you want a good reason to make a drip campaign? There's one there.

You have.

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So Sam, when we're working on drip campaigns, which is really what we're talking about when anything after you sign up for, you know, you opt into a list and you start getting emails dripped to you, um, I've found that marketers, copywriters, startup founders, they all kind of, they want to do a drip campaign. They know they're supposed to, or they call it an autoresponder or automation or whatever, um, for that particular thing. But they stop. Yeah. Because they don't know what to put in it. They don't know how to really plot it. So what do you do when you're plotting a drip campaign for a client or for yourself?

Yeah, no, it's, uh, on whenever you ask yourself that, you have no answer. I think it's important to take a few steps back and look at what type of a campaign you're trying to put together. So there are five, 10, 15, 20 different types of campaigns you can actually create. But once you know that, you're off to a good start. And here's, you know, here are a couple examples. Is the drip campaign for nurturing leads? Is it welcoming someone? They made a purchase. Are you welcoming them now into the, your family? Or is something else? Is it an onboarding campaign? Is it for abandoned shopping carts, renewals, confirmations, versus unsubscribed? Like, what's the purpose of the campaign itself? Like, why are you putting it together? And what are you trying to make it do? Now, okay, with any type of drip campaign that you might decide on doing, you are looking to for the most part, build credibility, help them know, like, and trust you, you know, build that connection with them. Use also education-based marketing as opposed to just blasting them with sales messages. You also want to have an educational element, usually, to a drip campaign. Um, and at the end of it, or throughout, you're all looking for that dripping campaign to do something, convert them into the next step, whatever that might be. So whether it's a mini-course, these is some of the common ones are like a mini-course. You're giving them an education for a, a day, or a week, or months, or whatever it is. Um, or it's an onboarding sequence, right? It's important to keep in mind that you set an expectation for a delivery time frame. And by that, I mean, if you, if you're telling people you're going to give them a seven-day mini-course, then you deliver it over the course of seven days, right? If you're telling them that every Thursday, or every Wednesday, I'm going to send out an email, then you do exactly that. So once you know what type of a drip campaign you're pulling together and plotting, also keep in mind that, okay, is there an expectation of delivery time frame that I need to address? And also use now, okay, with any drip campaign, especially if it's about nurturing a lead, or even an onboarding, let's say you were trying to take someone from a free trial to a paying user of your app, you want to think in terms of results in advance. And what that is, is that, okay, you, you know, and determine what the ultimate outcome is that your onboarded user is looking for, right? Then you want, then you want to kind of reverse engineer your way back from that. And I recommend this in general for any campaign. Is just think in terms of reverse engineering. What are the results that that I can deliver in advance to them actually getting it? And so you think, you think your way back. And you, you, you go, "All right, what steps do they need to take to get to the ultimate outcome?" If I want to get them to become a paying user, what do they need to do leading up to that? What do they need to know? What do they need to, like, you know, how often do they need to use the app? How can I lead them and guide them to that outcome? And knowing what those steps are, and then plotting your campaign so that an email, or each,

Backwards, exactly.

Yeah, backwards. So that each email can address that and bring someone forward.

Yeah. Now, another part of this is, you know, when should I be sending? Often should I be sending? You know, every day, every week, couple times a week? And there's no hard or fast rule to this. It really depends on the type of campaign you are using. However, what I found, and I know you've used as well, Joanna, is there's something called the Fibonacci numbers. And that's about as much math as I know. So I'm not gonna get into the math of it.

Yeah, ex. I just, I just look at it and then follow it, right?

So basically, it's a string of numbers that increase at a certain, according to certain rules. And so you have zero, one, one, two, three, five, eight, 11, and so on. And that's a great way to get started with the drip campaign because you know, okay, day zero, on zero, they get a welcome email if sent up for something. Or if there's an onboarding sequence, they get a first kind of orientation email, maybe. Uh, day, day one, which is the next day, they get another email that covers another topic or certain point. Day two, they get another email. Day three, they get another email. And so you, uh, yeah, the delivery of that.

Go ahead. But I want to pause on the two on day one, which is I think important, right? You have this plotted drip campaign following the Fibonacci sequence where you got the welcome, then you have day one is the start of the drip. But if you have two day ones, what's that second one? And for us, when I'm plotting these, you might have your own, Sam, but for me, I have day one as there's like a two-pronged. Right? So you've got one is starting out that the proper drip campaign where it's like educational or whatever it might be. Um, day, or, and day one, the second prong usually comes a couple hours later where it's a personal email from the sender with like a quick question or something that feels more intimate. Yes. That someone could actually respond to. So I do want to pause on that point. The Fibonacci sequence.

Good pause. And that's, yeah, no, that's, and that's very true. And I think, uh, I, what I've tended to see and use a lot is, um, I tend to use that second email as a way to just ensure deliverability. And so it'll be a short email that reaches out saying, "Hey, I," and let's say I sent the first email in the morning at 9:00 AM or something. And then at 4:00 or 5:00 PM in the afternoon, I'll ask, "Hey, did you get my email this morning? It had this subject line. Just, you know, let me know if you got it or got it or not, but just respond so I can know that you're getting everything you need." What that helps with is that they're now opening your emails, and they're also responding to you, which will help with the deliverability. So you can use that to, you know, ensure that people actually get your future emails.

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, yeah. It's effective. It works. And I've seen it work a lot. So that's a, you know, good tip to to use. So look out, the Fibonacci numbers, the string of numbers, I'm not going to rattle through them now, but it's essentially just helping you space out the timeline over through which you're sending emails, like on what day and how often and so on. Now, the last two things I want to say here, uh, with plotting, is you want to have, uh, story continuity to your drip campaign and also making sure that each email ends with a cliffhanger. And so what I mean by that is, this ties into the results in advance that I just mentioned, too. You want people to feel like they're not just getting a bunch of random broadcast emails sent to them that have no connection or very vague connection. Us, as people, respond to story. We respond to a beginning, a middle, and end. We respond to, uh, a narrative thinking. Right? We think in terms of narratives, and we think in terms of time. So the more you can have a clear arc to your drip campaign, you know, what's happening in the beginning, what's the journey people are going through? And, and it might sound cheesy, but even if you have an onboarding sequence, you know, what's the journey of someone using your app? First getting to know it, getting to the moment of "aha," like, "This is a great app. I'm gonna continue using it." And then what's, what's the resolution to that story? And then each email can function to bring up the next one and lead someone to look forward to the next email. And that can be ending with a cliffhanger type, or even ending with, "Okay, next, next day, or next week, we're going to talk about X, Y, and Z. And here's why you should look for it." And you give them a reason to look forward to your next email. So plotting a drip campaign, you know, it's, there are so many ways of doing it. But I really recommend you determine what type of campaign you're looking to do. And to use, you set expectations for delivery time frame. You think in terms of results in advance, and what steps someone has to take before to get to that outcome. You want to use, uh, you can use the Fibonacci numbers to kind of space it out. Early on in the beginning is figuring out, okay, on what, what day do I send what? And then having that story continuity and cliffhanger elements to the emails themselves. So it, it's not just information coming at them, but there's, there's a reason behind everything as well.

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So, one of the big things that we talk about when we talk about email copywriting is the subject line because so much depends on getting that subject line right. Yeah. And right. So because of that, people ask a lot of questions about subject lines. And they read a few blog posts on subject lines, and then you walk away with these ideas, which are not always as set in stone as they sound when you read about them. So knowing that we must always be testing, right? That subject lines are actually pretty easy to test in most email platforms. Um, I'd really like to talk about, um, top techniques or recommendations when you're putting together those tests for subject lines. So what do you do?

Yeah, so there, I do.

A lot of different things, and it always comes down to, uh, understanding who the recipient are in the environment they receive your email. I think if you start there, you can usually come up with some good ideas for testing. And it's, there are so many variables you can't control, and so it's not a matter of being, um, black and white on what to do and what not to do. It's more about picking out recommendations and saying, "Okay, I'm going to try this for the next couple months and see if that makes sense for the emails I'm sending."

And with any copy, or whenever you're trying to get someone to respond, people will always respond to emotion as opposed to logic, right? So, one of the first things that I try to do whenever I'm writing email subject lines or testing them is I want to really try to elicit an emotional response because when, when people scan their inbox, they see emails from anyone and everyone. And what will catch someone's attention when there's so much that scanning are how they respond. And this happens in a subconscious, ious level. And I'm going to get into that in a second. But I think when you write or even rewrite your subject lines, you want to try to get to an emotional angle, angle of what you're doing. So this could be curiosity, um, urgency as to why they should open, relevancy as well, like why should they care about your subject line, uh, trust if you can get that through, and instant gratification is key as well in terms of, "Okay, if I click to open this email, then I want to get something in return, right?" So you want to keep that in mind too. Um, fear and authority can go a long way in terms of what, how you're conveying and trying to, um, communicate on, on what level you're trying to communicate. So keeping the length there too is another thing that we'll get into in a second. But you don't need to have it really short or really long in terms of, or in the middle. What matters is how many words do you need to elicit a response? Sometimes that's more than five words, sometimes that's three words, maybe, or even one word sometimes. You know, you see people testing "Hey" as a subject line. And so when people see that, like that's, that's sort of a curiosity angle because you go, "Hey," and then, "Hey," and you want to find out what's next, you know? Yeah, or it sounds personal too, right? Like, "Oh, is that person really just writing to me? Like, is this not like a newsletter? It's like a thing. It's like, 'Oh, hi.'" Right? Yeah, exactly.

And so I think it's important to keep in mind that no matter what an emotional angle you're trying to get to, people are asking themselves, you know, the second thing I want to really drive home is, "Why open and why now?" Like, why should I open this and why should open it now? And I'm sure you know this, I'm sure everyone who watches this knows as well, you're always scanning your inbox and you're trying to pick out which email to open first because you might have 10 unread or 20 or 200 unread emails. And so you're trying to make a decision like, "Why should I open this and why should I open it now?" as opposed to, you know, next tomorrow or next week, which never happens. So just understand that a subject line exists for the purpose of answering those two impulses and those two questions, question s. And then that's it. You don't need to write a novel. You don't need to really, uh, be clever about it. You just have to have someone respond, "Okay, yeah, I'll click and open this and see what, what's what's going on."

And so these two first points really falls into my next Point here, which is, you want to communicate on a deeper emotional, lizard brain level. And that sounds more awful than it is. And basically, neuromarketing is, um, is very useful. It's a buzzword in a sense, and a lot of people are tagging on to, but it's useful because it helps you understand that we are emotional and often irrational creatures. And so there are six things that you can use to communicate on a deeper level with people. And, uh, people are motivated and driven by self-centeredness, often not selfish and ego, egotism, but just self-centered. They, they live in a world where they're the main character, right? They respond to contrast, they respond to tangibility, something that's real and concrete. Um, they respond to a beginning and an end, you know, the start somewhere and it go somewhere. They respond to visual stimuli and also emotion. So in your subject line, the more emotion you can elicit, the more, even like if you can't plan an image in their head within 10, nine, eight words, then that's going to go a long way to getting people to open.

And so this is where the whole long versus short versus middle length of a subject line comes into play. And here, you know, I don't think that that you should necessarily only preach one or the other. I think a short or long subject can work really well as long as that short or long serves the purpose that we've talked about already, the emotions, the lizard brain, everything else. And also keeping you casual and friendly. The more official something feels to someone, the less likely they are to probably open it because it feels like work. It feels like they have to do something. It feels like, "Oh, I, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to have to respond to someone else's demands on my time." And whereas their family or friends, they're usually sending them something funny, something easy, something they don't necessarily have to respond to. And so if a subject line keeps that tone and just communicates in a sense that's similar to maybe their family or friends, that will go a long way as well.

Yeah, and one final thing I want to add to this too, okay, which I always do, is I try to source subject lines from my audience. And not just asking them, "Hey, what would you respond to?" but actually looking at what they are responding to in the general life of the interwebs. Um, and I think there are some great places you can go to to just get inspiration. Reddit is one of them. You can go to subreddits that belong to particular topics. So if you were sending emails about weight loss, you probably want to go to the weight loss subreddits and see what people are posting, you know, what kind of headlines are they using for their posts that get a lot of comments, right? Uh, you can use Google Suggest by typing in keywords and seeing what Google suggests that you search for. Uh, PopURL.com is great for just, uh, it curates and collects like the top headlines in different topics and different, different websites, so you can see what's trending. You get a good sense of, "Okay, these headlines are trending right now within particular themes or topics." And obviously, the classic, which, you know, uh, which you've always preached about, Joanna, is using Amazon to do message research. And so, you know, you look for book titles, or you might even produce the review section just to see, "Okay, what are people writing that's short and succinct and that people tend to respond to?"

So, you know, sourcing these from the audience, either using short or long, but cater and friendly subject lines, uh, make sure you're tapping into a deeper emotional, lizard brain level. You always want to answer the "why open" and "why now." And just make sure that people are responding not in a logical sense, but they have an emotional response to a subject line like curiosity, urgency, or anything else. So those are kind of the five things that I would definitely keep in mind either to write or to test the most.

So Gavin, a question that comes up a lot is around when it's okay to sell. Because people get really freaked out at the idea of selling. You're instantly like, "This creepy car salesman," if you actually try to close somebody at some point, which is really sad because that's our whole objective as conversion copywriters is to take the relationships we've been building and take all of this good stuff that we're doing and actually turn it into a sale to keep a business growing and doing more good for the people that it serves. So with that in mind, I have some questions around when it's a good time to sell. Like, when should we be totally okay with selling? And my question for you is, should we try to sell in email? And if so, or if not, why? Um, and if you could just kind of walk us through a thought process around when it's a good time to sell an email in particular.

Yeah, sure. So, um, short answer is yes, sell in email, of course. Uh, email is one of the best ways to sell online, especially if you have a good relationship with your list. Um, if you've been abusing your list, that's a different story. I hope you haven't done that. I'm sure you guys haven't done that. I'm sure you don't do that, Joe. Never. Yeah, okay. Hope not. I hope suspect you're very suspect. So if, if you're gonna sell to a list, I think it's important that the first thing you do is you set up that relationship before they opt in. Um, tell them what they can expect. Tell them if, "Hey, I, I'm going to email you three times a week. I'm gonna email you once a month." Set up the relationship, and then you stick to that. So, um, one of the companies that I work for, we email four times a week, and we tell them that we're going to email four times a week. And secondly, we tell them that we're going to advertise to them. And so they've signed up to that list with that full kind of knowledge. There's a, a guy called Ben Settle, who's a kind of renowned email marketer, pretty aggressive. He'll have you actually tick a box before submitting your email address that is like, it's you admitting like, or accepting that he's gonna write to you every single day and he's gonna sell to you every day. And if you don't like it, don't come on board. So I think that's important. Set it up. You don't have to be that aggressive. Just need to be honest. Like, "Yeah, hey, I'm gonna email you and I'm gonna give you all this value, but I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna advertise you too sometimes as well." Be honest. "I'm a business," and people accept that. That's, that's cool. Um, and those who don't accept it, get off your list, right? If you don't accept it, then unsubscribe. And now you don't have to worry when you're writing that someone's gonna complain because expectations have been set.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think that's, um, and if people start to complain, that's kind of just disrespectful, and you don't have to be concerned or upset about that. That you can kind of be like, "That person's getting weird. Lots of people, it's not me." Yeah, yeah. If, if you've told them, they're being weird. So don't worry about that.

So my next point is that you don't want to slam them with constant promotional copy in your emails. I personally, I think that's too much. I think you want a mixture of editorial or content stuff where you give value to them, where they, they think, "Gee, I'm glad I'm on this list." Even even better than that is that they can't wait to open your emails because they're so entertaining. That's ideal. And then, you know, every second, third, fourth, whatever you decide your schedule is going to be, that can be a promotional, uh, email. Um, however, your editorial or your content can still sell. And, um, there's two ways to to do that. One is to do editorial mentions, just like, "Hey, by the way, I've got a sale going on at the moment. You can check it out here. Okay, now let's get into what I'm going to talk about today." Something like that. Um, and then the second one is, um, something I call a space ad, which is like a little ad in the middle of your content. Um, and you, you can say above that, you know, like, "Content continues below," and they'll have a look at it, or they'll just blank it out, or whatever. Um, the, the, these will not do as well as a, um, promotional email that you've written out according to copy principles, but are a chance for you to sell in a kind of less aggressive way if you chose, if you choose to do that. And I think you should. You're putting time and effort into composing that email and thinking about the customer and giving value. It's not too much to just put a little editorial mention or a PS or something like that in there.

Yeah, and I think that that's a good tip. Yeah, if you have already set up that you're delivering value, you should be allowed to also close that value sort of loop, um, by saying, "Okay, now you're ready for what's next. The next level is this." Yeah, sorry, you were talking though. No, that's cool. That's, that's, I agree that the, I think the other natural way is like, if you've just talked, I see a lot of people doing this, a lot of people, you talk on a topic and then, "Do you want more of this? Okay, click here to go and get it." That's a kind of, I think that's a pretty soft sell as well, something you can do in, in your content email.

And the last thing I want to mention with selling in email, um, is that, uh, if you're not selling today, but you've got a product planned, you can start telling them about it today. Um, and I don't, I don't think they'll, they'll mind that. In fact, I know they don't. In fact, they get excited, and you will sell more when your product finally launches. So that can be as simple as like, "Hey, quick note, I just wanted to say in two weeks' time, I'm launching my new Copy Hackers product, right? It's, this is what you're going to get. Okay, but you can't get that for two weeks. So let's get back to it." You know, and you're just kind of teasing that something's coming in the future. I think that's another way to boost your sales without, it's not an aggressive sales thing, it's just letting them know that there's some good stuff coming.

Yeah, even I, well, I, I do that. I do actually a lot for everything that's about to come. Like a blog post tomorrow, I'll tend to write to you about it the day before and say, "Like, here's why you should be looking forward to tomorrow," um, to kind of build that anticipation. And then also for actually for selling, for sales-related stuff, um, if you know something's coming out in a week or two weeks, you can say, "If you, if you really want to hear about that, um, click here." And then of course, when they click, they get tagged, um, in your email platform as somebody who's a good prospect. And then sell more directly to them, and more softly to those people who didn't click.

Yeah, building a hot list of, um, they're going to be the, the, um, the big money makers, I guess. Yes, where you can like more aggressively sell to them because they asked you to. And the ones that didn't ask you to, you more softly sell to them. But in all cases, you're actually, you know, increasing your conversion rate by being okay with selling. I just had this thought. I started thinking that if you had people that had complained about advertising, if you could segment your list, you could have a content-only list where they would only ever get soft sales and content emails. And they would be exempt from, um, your, um, promotional kind of copy.

Amy, AdWords ads are so important to get right. There's so much on, you get them wrong. So I would love to hear from you as someone who's written countless words, ads, tested them, full range of clients. Can you talk to us about how to write an AdWords ad?

Yeah, definitely. So we can talk about how to write AdWords ads that convert. So, you know, AdWords can be really complicated, but we're gonna make this really simple, and we're just gonna go over five steps of how to do that. Um, so the first thing to keep in mind really is the conversion funnel. You know, a lot of times we'll assign like, each step of the funnel has one goal. And so the goal of this subject line is to get someone to open the email. And, you know, the headline is to get someone to read the next line. And the button is to get clicked. But when we're coming to paid search ads, we're paying money every time someone clicks. And so we don't just want, you know, the most click volume or the best click-through rate. We could go broke without anyone ever doing what we ultimately want them to do. So when we're writing a paid search ad, it needs to really, um, correspond with the landing page. We, we're trying to prepare someone to, to kind of take that next step that we want, kind of to, to qualify that click. So there needs to be a good alignment between the ad and the landing page. Um, which is what's so great about learning conversion copywriting is that you have a huge advantage because the better you can make the landing page, the more successful your landing page, then the better and more successful your ad campaign will be.

So cool. Yeah. So to jump into the five steps, the first one is actually just getting your landing page right. So I'm just gonna, like, here's my scientific formula for how to do that. Um, let me just back up a little bit here. This is what we need to have for a paid search campaign. So we need to have a, a compelling headline that's gonna get attention. We need to have some benefits or reasons to convert. And then we have a, a call to action, like strong call to action. So you'll have more than this on your landing page, I'm sure, but you need to have these three things if you're going to be paying to drive traffic to it. So that's step one is just making sure that those elements are in place.

So step two is, we're going to start to, um, work on the ad itself. So an ad has three parts. It has a headline, and two lines of description. And we're going to build up. We're going to start with description line two. And this is just going to be the call to action from your landing page. So if your landing page has a call to action of "Start your free trial," then the call to action on your ad is "Start your free trial." If it's "Get the download now," then your, um, call to action is "Get the download now." Just whatever it is, you're just going to transfer it over and put it in here. So that's step two is just filling out that part.

Step three is, you're going to write description line one. And the way you're going to do that is you're going to go back to your landing page again, and you're going to take a benefit or a reason to convert and put it here as the description. Now, you don't have a lot of character space, so you're not going to be able to get this perfect. You won't be 100% satisfied with it, but if you have something that you think will be compelling to your audience, um, that's what's important at this stage is just being able to get something that's going to be meaningful to them. So you've got your two lines of description there, and that's the end of step three.

Um, step four, we're actually not taking the headline from the landing page. And there's a few reasons for this, but what we're going to do is we're going to use the keyword. So the basically, the what someone's typing in, like their search query, what they're looking for in order to trigger your ad in the first place, that keyword is going to become the headline of your ad. So there's not a lot of extra character space for that. If there is, you can kind of, um, make it embellish it a little bit, but pretty much you'll have room to write the keyword. So this is, this is your ad at the end of step four. You've got the keyword, a benefit, and a call to action. So that's, that's our ad. And it may feel like really boring and like no one will ever click on this. And this doesn't take into account like persuasion theory or anything else, which is okay. It's okay to not be super happy with this because step five is, you're going to write another ad to test against it that's gonna break the rules. Like now that you've got like a buy-the-book, um, ad, you're going to write one that that changes some things up. So maybe you want to switch out the benefit, you want to try testing a different benefit and keeping everything else the same. Maybe you want to move the call to action and have that become the headline and use two benefits here. You can really start to play with it. And if you don't need to be as mindful of the rules because you're just going to test and see what works the best.

And then as you continue to test your ads, you're going to learn more and more about your audience, what works best for them, what kind of messaging, um, resonates best with them. And with that, not only will you be building better ads as you go, but you'll also be learning about your audience, even for things that you could start including in your landing page, like, um, just the, the choices you can make on your landing page that maybe you want to call out something, or something really resonates with people that you weren't expecting. You can start to to work that in there as well. So just getting better messaging all around for your audience.

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So let's talk about something that every copywriter needs to be good at, actually, like everybody in almost anything could find value in this, and that is, um, keeping a swipe file. So can you talk us through what a swipe file is, why you'd want to use one, when you should use them, what you use, like any techniques or tips or tools that you use for your swipe file?

Yeah, sure. Um, so a swipe file is a collection of great copy, uh, and copy that you need as well. There's no point collecting copy that you're never going to use in my opinion, unless it's just, you're just a student of the game or something, okay? Um, feel free to collect that kind of copy, everything. Um, yeah. So what it does is that it saves you a bunch of time. Sometimes you're gonna have to write copy from scratch, but there's times where that's just unnecessary. Like, um, there are certain emails, like let's just say that you have a subscription service and you want a renewal email. It doesn't have to be that creative. It just has to kind of get the job done. And there's probably examples out of that out there that are really good at getting people to renew their subscription. So why not collect that copy, store it in a place, and then you've got it there to reference if you ever need it. And I, it's not about copying word for word, um, at all, or plagiarizing people's copy. It's more looking at the structure and saying, "Okay, what have they done here? Where has it created, um, urgency? You know, how did they push?" You know, and and taking those things and using in your own copy. So that's what it is. It's going to save you a bunch of time. Um, and it's the third thing is it's really easy to do with what I'm going to show you.

So they used to, um, well, I guess old-school copywriters before computers, they used to write, you know, their swipe file was made up from cards that they keep in a little roller, that Rolodex that they would kind of rifle through. I don't know why I keep doing that, but it's just right up front there. Yeah, I assume they do that. Yeah. So they would keep cards of headlines or, you know, bullets or whatever that, you know, spoke to them, they thought they were good, and they could draw upon that as a resource. I suggest using some software called Evernote, and it's free. Yes. And you can get something called the Evernote Web Clipper. I think that's what it's called. It's a little plugin for your web browser. And whenever you see brilliant copy, you can click this button and you can save it to your Evernote folder. Um, and the best thing about this is you can just be surfing the web, doing all the normal stuff that you do, which for me is, I read a lot of copy. And whenever I see something that's great or that's going to be helpful, I'll just go and clip it. And now it's in my folder.

Now, uh, there's, there's two ways that you can do this. There's, you can build up a great kind of, you can just swipe everything and have this out-of-control folder that's so unwieldy. Or you can just look at getting a a wide range of copy that meets your needs. So let's get one example of a welcome email. Let's get one example of a landing page. And, you know, that's a really concise swipe file. That's what my recommendation would be.

Yeah, and focus it around your niche as well, unless you're writing in multiple niches. Um, then you need, you know, more examples. But yeah, from different niches. That's true. I, I use, actually, um, I use it a lot for email. I keep, uh, bunch of folders in Gmail, um, labeled with different things that I tend to write or teach about or whatever it might be, where I want, um, examples to reference, especially when I'm, like, if I'm going to write a sales email, and maybe it's the seventh sales email in a cycle, um, where you start to feel like, "Oh, I don't know what to say anymore, right? Like, I'm a little, what, where do I, I need some inspiration." Yeah, can be, you just refer to your swipes on, just keep a folder on sales emails. And that's another reason to keep signing up for people's emails and things like that, is to learn, um, and keep that swipe file.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, Joe, you said inspiration, um, you keep those email templates or whatever, so that when you run dry, you've got something that can trigger something. I think that's another excellent use of a swipe file. Even if you're not going to use it as a kind of like, "Here's a template." Is something that I personally do is I have headlines. I have literally probably thousands of headlines in my swipe file. Of course, I don't read them all, but before I have to go write a headline or write some bullets, I'll go and I'll just read. And by reading these proven headlines, I'm not just swiping junk. I start to get the rhythm of good copywriting in my head. And I'll, I'll read 15 minutes or something, and then I'll be like, "Cool, time to write some headlines or bullets." And I'll start writing. And it's gonna be, um, you know, relevant to what I'm writing. I'm not copying this stuff, but I have all that rhythm in my head. And good copy kind of just comes out. Just like any writer does, right? Like a novelist will sit down and read other people's stuff to kind of get out of a funk that he or she might be in, right? To like, hear a voice again and get reconnected with what you need to connect with in order to face that page.

Yeah, perfect. It's, it's one of the biggest secrets, isn't it, of copywriting? That with formulas and research, right? Having that swipe file is something that it's very easy to set up, as you said, use Evernote. I mentioned Gmail. You should have, um, these swipe files so that you can write better copy, even faster, um, and know with more confidence that it's likely to be good copy.

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