Transcription
K: I don't see why I need spiritual or psychological authority. Because if I know how to read myself, I don't need anybody to tell me. But we have never attempted deeply to read the book of myself. I come to you and say, 'Please, help me to read.' And then the whole thing is lost.
H: But I think what Rupert is asking is that if we start by assuming responsibility for other people, that entails...
K: What? My earning capacity?
H: Which must be secure.
K: Yes, secure as much as possible. Not in countries where there's tremendous unemployment.
H: So, you're saying that that doesn't entail any psychological insecurity.
K: No, of course not. But when I say, 'He's my servant, I'm going to keep him in that place,' you follow?
H: No. Tell me more.
K: I mean, I treat him as a servant.
H: Yes.
K: Which becomes irresponsible - I don't know… naturally.
H: But if it's a servant, he can come and go. But if it's a child, he can't come and go.
K: Ah! He's part of my family.
B: I think the question is something like this: suppose, you are responsible for a family and the conditions are difficult, you may not have a job, and you may start to worry about, and become insecure psychologically.
K: Yes.
B: Right?
K: I don't worry about it, there it is, I have no more money. So, my friend, I have no more money, if you want to stay, share the little food I have, we'll share it.
B: You're saying that even if you are unemployed and you are responsible for a family, it will not disturb the order of the mind, right?
K: Of course, not.
B: You will find an intelligent way to solve it.
K: Deal with it.
B: Yes.
S: But this kind of worry as a result of responsibility is relative.
K: I don't call it worry. I am responsible.
S: Yes.
K: And therefore I look after as much as I can.
S: And if you can't?
K: Sorry?
S: If you can't?
K: I can't. Why should I worry and bother - I can't, it's a fact.
B: You're saying that it's possible to be completely free of worry, for example, in the face of great difficulties.
K: Yes. There is no… You see, that's what I am saying. Where there is attention, there is no need to… there is no worry, because there is no centre from which you are attending.
S: There are still problems, and there may still be responsibilities that one has.
K: Of course, I have problems, so I resolve them.
S: But if you can't resolve them.
K: Then I can't.
S: If your family is starving.
K: I can't. Why should I worry about it? I can't be Queen of England.
S: No.
K: No. So, why should I worry about it?
S: But if you're a poor Indian, unemployed, your family is starving, there's nothing you can… You've tried everything, you've failed. You don't worry. Actually, surprisingly enough, a lot of poor Indians in just that situation don't worry - that's the most amazing thing about India. But then, of course, people coming along looking from outside say, 'Well, this is fatalism'.
K: Yes, that's right.
S: And it's often regarded as the disease of India, the very fact that so many people manage not to worry in those circumstances, to the degree that we would expect.
K: I'd like to ask you a question. You've listened to all this - messy consciousness - does one realise it, and empty the content, fear, you know, the whole business? Does it interest you?
H: Yes.
K: Totally?
H: Yes.
K: That means what?
H: It means you just listen.
K: No, it means a conversation, dialogue between us. Penetrating deeper, and deeper, and deeper. Which means you must be free to examine. Free from your prejudice, from your previous experience. Of course, otherwise you can't examine. You can't investigate. 'Investigare' means explore, you know, push it, push it, push it further and further. Now, are you, are we willing to do that, so that actually the self is not? But when the self is not, it doesn't mean you neglect your wife, your children - you follow? That becomes so silly, it's like becoming a sannyasi, going off to the mountains, a monk going off into a monastery. That's an extraordinary escape. The fact is I have to deal with my wife and children, and if I have, a servant. Can I be so totally without the self that I can intelligently deal with these problems?