Transcription
This is the Brave Co podcast. I'm your host, Jason B. Welcome back to the Brave Co podcast, men. This week, I have one of my favorite people, favorite men, uh, in the planet, Bill. You've been such an inspiration to me, such a father to me, and, um, it's just been such a blessing to have you in my life. So thank you. Thanks for coming today.
It's fun to have you in, too. Love it. It's great. Um, for those of you that don't know, this is Bill Johnson. And, um, yeah, I, I basically grew up with Bill my whole entire life. And, uh, I've had the privilege of serving under you for 20 years now at the church.
Yeah. Time goes by so fast, doesn't it?
Yeah. True. It is. But today, we're going to talk about, um, faith. And we've talked about a lot of different attributes, from courage to resilience and discipline. But, um, faith being one of the main attributes that is actually, uh, a must for a man of God to have. You can't really be a man of God and, and not have faith working in your life. And so we're going to dive into that today.
But before we do, like always, for this series, I want to, um, read a story of, uh, a man named Nelson Mandela, and it will talk about his journey in faith.
So, in the annals of history, few figures embody the spirit of faith, resilience, and unwavering determination as Nelson Mandela. His life's journey serves as a testament to the transformative power of belief in the face of adversity. From his early activism, uh, against apartheid, to his historic presidency, Mandela's story is one of faith tested, trials endured, and victories won.
Born in 1918 in South Africa, Nelson Mandela felt the call to activism at a young age. Inspired by the injustice of apartheid, he joined the African National Congress and dedicated himself to the fight against racial segregation and oppression. Mandela's activism, uh, landed him in prison, where he would spend the next 27 years of his life. Despite the harsh conditions of Robben Island and the separation from his loved ones, Mandela's faith in the righteous, uh, sorry, in the righteousness of his cause never wavered. His unwavering belief in justice sustained him through the darkest moments of his imprisonment.
As international pressure mounted against the apartheid regime, Mandela emerged as a symbol of hope and resilience. His commitment to nonviolence and reconciliation paved the way for peaceful negotiations with the government, leading to his release from prison in 1990. In 1994, Nelson Mandela was elected as South Africa's first black president in a historic democratic election. His presidency was marked by efforts to heal the wounds of apartheid and build a more inclusive, equitable society. Mandela's belief in forgiveness and reconciliation transformed South Africa and inspired the world.
Nelson Mandela's life exemplifies the qualities of a man of faith, courage in the face of adversity, and resilience in times of trial, and steadfast commitment to justice and equality.
Uh, there's, as we're, as I'm reading this story, there's a couple things that I really like about it and a couple things that I want to, to expound upon. Of course, you have this man who believes in his cause so much and the call, uh, on his life and what he was put on this Earth for, that he's willing to go to prison for 27 years. Which is, it's one thing to, to read it in a story, you know, and you read over that and you go like, oh, wow. But man, what a trial to have to actually endure. And I think that when we're reading this, when I was reading the story, I was thinking through like, there's two kinds of faith. And there's probably like 10. But in my mind, there's faith in what you're doing and faith in who you're serving. And when I look at Mandela, I don't actually know his whole life, so he may have had an incredible faith in God that led him through that. But his ability to believe, to actually believe, to, to believe in what he was, was doing and the call that was on his life, of course, gave him the resilience to, uh, stay the course when he's in, when he's in prison. And I think that for every man, that's vital, right? You have to have, you can change the word to conviction. You know, you have to have this belief, this knowing that what I was put on this planet to do, this call, this mission, is, is something that I don't ever want to back down from, right?
There's another type of faith that I want to highlight, and I hope that we talk about a lot. And there's probably more, so I'm just sharing my open mind, and you can correct me. But there's, there's this faith that we see like Daniel in the Bible, who not only feels called by God for his mission, but is also relying upon God to get instruction to fulfill his mission in life. And those are two different, very different things in my mind. Because I think a lot of men believe in what they're doing. And you can believe in what you're doing and not believe in the one who made you to do what you're doing, right?
Right. And that's, I mean, you have to have belief in what you're doing. But that's not, that's different in my mind from actually being a man of faith.
Yeah. Where maybe we would say Abraham was a man of faith. He lived life according to the call of God on his life, yeah, and walked out the impossible. Does that make sense?
Totally. And that distinction, would you want to add anything to that?
Probably a distinguishing feature between those two expressions of faith is, you can be committed to your assignment, your job, your role, and not always have purity of heart. Mmm. But to do it unto the one you're serving, yeah, requires a purity of heart.
That's a really good distinction. And when you, when you offer yourself to the Lord for his glory, good or bad, success or failure, you know, great breakthrough or, you know, lack, what, whatever it might be, you, you constantly maintain what's most important. And that's the relationship. That's the sense of awareness of the person, of his pleasure, of his light, Mmm, of his call, really. It's, I'm not called to a task, I'm called to a person. And so that distinction, I think, helps because, uh, where there's purity of heart, you have something you can build on. Yeah. And, uh, so the Lord is always working to make sure that we do so with purity of heart. So that's, that's very significant.
Yeah, I like that a lot. Um, having, having a conviction of what you're supposed to be doing is so much easier than living a life according to, uh, a life that pleases God. Having purity of heart. Purity of heart is, is a challenging thing. It really is. Yeah. Because purity of heart doesn't necessarily mean sin. Of course, sin would be the obvious, right? Especially blatant sin, like adultery or something like that, right? That's, that's the obvious. But I think when we actually look at being pure in heart, in my lifetime, I've, I've dealt less now in my life. It's less about, is this a sin or is this not a sin? And there was definitely a time in my life, and not that I've never been tempted to sin, because for sure. But more nowadays, I would say the struggle that I would fall into in this category, even in, in being a man of faith, is there are things that I often feel God calling me into that aren't loud enough for me to know for sure. Mmm-hmm. But it's enough conviction that I'm drawn to it and feel pulled in that direction. Yep. And if I don't obey it, I feel convicted about it. And those are the, I think for me, like, those are the areas when I start to look at my life and go, what does it mean to be a man of faith? Those are the areas of my life that are so challenging. And not the, again, not the sin and the, this maybe the struggle with, like, a flesh struggle like that. But am I actually walking out in, in, in the way that God's calling me to walk out and believing in the way that God's calling me to and trusting him in the way that he's asking me to trust him?
And I'll give you an example. In 2018, I felt like God said to me, I want you to give me something I can bless. Which is a very interesting thing for you to hear, right? Because I've got a bunch of kids and a marriage and I'm in ministry. Like, there's lots of things that you can bless. And, but I really felt like he was talking about the, the Men's Ministry that was in my heart forever, since I was a little boy. I knew like, I want to restore men back into their God-given creation. It's just something I've known since I was 13. And I had, I didn't, of course, know what to do with it when I was young. I did what I knew to do was prepare and help people and counseling and, but in 2018, it was like he was saying, it's time. And I felt, uh, I felt so divided on how to actually start because it's kind of like he gives you a blank check and goes, well, write how much you need. And I'm like, I don't know how much. I don't know whether I do discipleship or whether I do a men's retreat or. And it doesn't really matter what I started out with. For me, I had this conviction that I was supposed to do something that within the realm of faith, if that makes sense, uh, that I was supposed to step out in a way towards what God was calling me into. The hard part was that he didn't say, this is what you're supposed to do. It actually took more faith for me to not have a clear direction. If you had said, Jay, you're going to spend the next four years, you're going to call it Brave Co, you're going to raise this, it would wouldn't actually take faith. Yeah. But I find like the hard part for me at this point in my life is the stuff I feel God calling me into isn't clear enough for, for me to rest 100% sure that I heard the right thing. And isn't so vague that I could just walk away from it and go, that was not God. He's actually calling me into relationship. I guess he's calling me into search it out with him. And I think that that's the biggest challenge that, that I'm facing today when it comes to being a man of faith, at least off the top of my head.
What does it look like? Like, what do you do in those times, Bill, of knowing that you're called to a, a direction, a call in your life, but not enough clarity to, like, do you know what I'm saying? The dilemma for me.
I wish I didn't know what you were saying.
What's your, what's your go-to there?
You do your best. I mean, it's, it's, maybe an oversimplified answer, but really, that's it. Uh, the whole issue of purity of heart has to do with motives. Why you're doing what you're doing. I can give to the poor to be recognized by people, or I can give to the poor 'cause I care for them. Yeah. The same action, two different ways. Um, I can do anything in the kingdom for attention, or, yeah, I can be involved in self-promotion. All those kinds of things. And I can, I can veil it, I can doctor it up to where it looks like I'm promoting the ministry or the gospel or whatever. But I can do it for my own, for my own need of recognition. And so this whole issue of, of faith coming out of a clean heart, a pure heart, that really comes down to why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. Who you're doing it for. And, um, and there are times in this journey where you know exactly. I mean, anytime the Lord has, has been extra clear on what I'm supposed to do, I've been so thankful because it doesn't happen often enough anymore. Uh, it happened. I remember in the early days, he would make it so clear. There'd be a dream, a vision, a word, something. And, uh, of late, it's been more like, you know, you're supposed to go in that direction, so figure it out. Wow. And, uh, and you, you, you just pray a lot. You, you, you weigh your, your ideas, thoughts with scripture. Uh, you have to have, you know, when you're taking a direction, you have to have the right direction. It's got to be biblical. You've got to have the timing. Because you can do the right direction out of, in the wrong time. You know, you have a child that's given, that's born at five months, it's not going to be as healthy as nine months. It's going to need extra care to keep it alive. So sometimes we do things prematurely that require extra attention that we wouldn't have had to give it, you know? Yeah. So you've got the whole thing of timing. You've got the will of God, the direction of the Lord. And there has to be that sense of peace. There has to be, in the relationship, that there's that awareness that you know what, I don't know. I don't know clearly what I'm doing, but I just have a peace about it. So we just pursue it. But you, my, uh, probably most frequent mistake I've made through the years is that once I get a certain, uh, direction, I assume I know what's supposed to happen or how it's supposed to. And those assumptions would kill me. Yeah. Because I'll, I'll assume that, all right, this lined up, this lined up, so therefore, and then I make the assumption and get ahead of, of the Lord. And, and so that's where that's where the purity of heart thing really, where faith requires that purity of heart, that's where it keeps you connected to the presence where you realize, okay, this is, this is the peace that he gives, gives when the timing is right, when the direction is right. And that peace is, is critical. Because if I, if I become anxious, I can't hear. I don't, I don't hear well when I'm anxious. Yeah.
That's a good point. Anxiety is connected to fear. So, yeah.
Um, I don't hear well when that's happening. And I'll, I'll force it. I'll, you know, out of determination or discipline or whatever. And it just doesn't work, you know? So getting that place of real peace is huge.
It's interesting because even as you're talking, I'm thinking through like different areas of my life and, um, that I feel like I'm having to step out in faith in. And it's funny because I want the direction more so that I have the comfort than so that I know that I'm on the right path. Yeah.
Yeah. If I'm really honest, right? Like, I just want to, I just, I, I want to be at a place where I, where I have manufactured peace because I know that I'm on the right path. As opposed to, like, um, this spot where, because there really is a lot of tension, if we're honest, like, there's a lot of tension in the, in everyday life. Um, I went, you know, my, my mother-in-law passed away, uh, a year ago, almost a year ago, in September. And my daughter also, Edie, was going through a really hard time just emotionally. And of course, you know, she's four, she was three back then. Kids are a challenge anyways. And, um, but she had some sensory issues that she was working through. And, and just the combination, I found myself of, of, uh, Lauren, my wife, being in that really hard season, and then, uh, raising kids again. And Edie being in a really tough season where I just wanted, you just want out of those seasons, of course. And I want, but I want to know that I'm on the right track, right? And I found so much in that season that I never got a big, like, Jay, you're doing the right thing, you're on the right track, this is where your daughter's going to be, she's going to be fine. And, and because I often look for those prophetic words, you know, um, I pray for those, like, Lord, would you show up? Yeah. And tell me about my daughter and tell me about. And he's given me some beautiful things in the past. I went through a nervous breakdown, and he gave me some very specific words that helped me that I clung to. But I found in this season that I didn't actually get that. I didn't get those words. I had moments where God would meet me in the, like, in the small things that would bring comfort and peace and knowing that I'm doing the right thing. And more importantly, that he's God, and he hasn't forgot about me and isn't going to leave me and has a plan and a future and a hope. And all those things are, I would know 100% up here and be able to quote the scripture. But in different seasons, getting it down into, into my core belief, um, has been really challenging. I know that you've gone through, of course, in, in your lifetime, I mean, the death of your father, death of Benny, and so many, I mean, leading movements and so many different moments. How do you, I think, how do you strengthen yourself in faith in those times? Because when I think about being a man of God, uh, being a man of faith, maybe if we're staying on, on the subject, like, so much of it, I think, is being able to strengthen yourself when you don't see. When, when hard times, I mean, otherwise, you don't need like, I don't need faith in Hawaii on vacation. I don't. But I need it everywhere else. Like, how do you strengthen yourself in those times? How do you strengthen your faith in God and in that, that place in your life where you get back to a place of security and vision and focus when you're in the middle of the hard time?
You can strengthen yourself by refining what you'll think about, what you put your attention on. You can strengthen yourself by engaging in certain activities: worship and reading of scripture and, you know, all the obvious things. Yeah. Uh, true fellowship, community, helps to, helps to, uh, just, just being with people, not talking problems, just being with people, helps to give mid-course corrections and that sort of thing because you, you become more aware of the mind of Christ when you're with the body, with the other members. So that's, that's a significant thing. But to actually strengthen yourself in faith, you have to understand what faith is. It's, uh, it's either a gift or it's a fruit. A gift is something that God gives you for a specific moment. Let's say you have a, you have a crisis, it just comes up. Or get a phone call, there's a crisis. Normally it would send us on a tailspin. But as we're driving to the location where we got to pray for somebody or whatever, on the way, we have this overwhelming sense of peace and purpose that comes on us as we drive there. And it gives us a gift of faith that is equal to the size of the problem. Let's just use money for example, because it's measured. Let's say that through our lifetime, we have $1,000 faith. And we just ran into a million-dollar problem. Well, I can't stretch my $1,000 faith big enough. Yeah. But what the Lord can do is he can give me a gift for that moment. Now, it doesn't last past today. It doesn't last past this situation. It's not a gift that, that endures my lifetime. But it impacts my lifetime. So I express that faith in that moment, and the miracle takes place. That's, that's the gift of faith. The fruit of faith develops with use. And so scripture says, every person has been given a measure of faith. So if I, again, using money, just because it's, uh, it measures, um, if I, really, I grew up with, with a $100 faith. And I just have that as my lifestyle. So then I, I start adopting $200 problems because what I want to do is I want to grow. I want to use what God's given to me. And in the faithful use, it's like a muscle. It grows. It grows with use. Yeah. But in both cases, the faith comes from God. Wow. And so if I don't realize where it comes from, I will think I can grow it on my own. And there's a difference between faith and belief. Belief is our, our mental agreement that something is true. We read in the scripture, by his stripes, I was healed. Jesus did this 2,000 years ago, and he took care of this for me. I believe that. Faith is different because faith says that reality is active now and is having an effect in my body. And it's not something I can stir up. It's something I have to yield to. Wow. Because it comes from God. It requires surrender. Faith developed in me comes from surrender. The only great faith comes from great surrender.
When you talk about surrender, I love that you're separating the two because I was going to ask you, what's the difference between belief and faith? Um, this is even something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Uh, I'm getting ready to preach at the men's conference, and, yeah, we want to be men who believe, but we also want to be men of faith. Yeah. And the separate, the difference between the two is dramatic and profound. And I love that you just went into what faith actually is. It's a great distinction because I often feel so much pressure to believe hard enough, if that makes sense.
Totally. It does. I've tried to believe hard enough for this thing to happen. Never creates faith.
Yeah. It doesn't create faith. No matter how hard I try. I'm trying to be obedient here, God.
Totally, totally. And, and also, like, I love the partnership and the responsibility that we have, yeah, to go, okay, I'm a steward of everything that God's given me. He expects to grow. At least I believe that. And so I'm going to, if I have a $100 faith, awesome. I'm going to steward that and it's going to grow. And God's going to come through. And it's stretching. And but at the same time, I, it's, it's a weird analogy, but one place where, um, I could say that I had this moment where all of my anxiety left. I've only experienced it a few times in my life this profoundly. It was, um, before my divorce happened. My marriage was in a really tough place. And I was waking up at like 5:30 AM, if I was even sleeping very much. And I'd go on these long walks on the river trail because we lived really close. And I would pray the same prayer almost every single day, mostly just, God, like, you have to fix this. I can't fix it. And I remember, um, I was, I was just, I was praying that prayer, walking back. I'd been doing this for a week or two and journaling a lot with God and just full of anxiety. It was one of the ways that I could lower the anxieties if I got walked and prayed. And one day I was walking back on the river trail and I was saying to God again, you have to take this anxiety away. I don't know how to take it away. I just know that I, I don't want to live. I can't even function like this. And you have to come through and fix what I can't fix. I took one more step. I could tell you where the sun was at. I could tell you where I was at on the trail. I literally took one more step and it was gone. Like, gone. I, honest to God, it was completely gone. Now, I had pain. I had pain. I didn't have any more fear. And I never had any more fear in that season. I've had plenty of fear after that season. I had no more fear. It was gone. I had this incredible faith that that really did. It was the Philippians 4, it surpassed my understanding. It wasn't something that I had conjured up or built up or tried to. And it sustained and lasted for that whole period. Now I've gone back and looked for that in other places of my life, like, God, how does that, how did I get to that spot? And where did it come from? But even in hearing your description of faith, I can easily and clearly see like, no, that was a moment in which God went, this is over your head. You, you can't do this apart from me. Like, you literally won't be able to do this moment. This isn't something that, that you're going to have to handle. For whatever reason, he grants us right faith. And he gifted that to me.
Yep. I guess the, the importance, I mean, that when I hear, when I think about it, because I haven't thought about where faith comes from in a long time, just being honest, like, oh man, I guess the, my natural next question is like, okay, how do I grow that place where God gives it to me? Is that possible?
Yeah. Um, whether you realize it or not, in that moment where you were able to step into, to that place of faith where fear left, and, um, you made yourself available to him, it wasn't, it wasn't Jay trying to fix Jay. Yeah. It wasn't Jay Jay trying to be pleasing to God. I'm going to work hard so that I please you. It was, it was a surrender. And where, where this comes from in our lifestyle is that we live as children, children that are dependent on a father. Father, I want to please you with my faith, but I know it comes from you. Mmm. And so I want your faith. In Mark 11, it says, have faith in God. Probably should be translated, have the faith of God. Wow. Have the faith of God. The very next verse, Jesus instructs about speaking to a mountain, and it actually becomes removed. So we're talking about God's faith in us moves a mountain. And so, um, it's, it's a simple acknowledgment. God, faith comes from you. Doesn't come from me. I know I can't create it. I can't strive and get it. I can only surrender. So I'm saying, the best I know how, here I am. Do in me whatever is necessary so that I can function with a faith that pleases you. Because the scriptures teach that without faith, we can't please you. Yeah. So it's, it's a scary scripture.
Oh, totally, totally. So, yeah. So it's, it's, we are required to live by faith. And that's what pleases him. It's not a hoop to jump through. Yeah. It's a place to surrender. It's a place to give up and surrender.
It's interesting because that word surrender, um, it must have some action with it. When you talk about surrender, what's the posture of a surrendered man to God? God puts a gun to your back, what do you do?
In other words, my hands are open. I've got nothing hidden. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a, I don't have a hidden weapon. I don't have a knife, gun I'm going to pull out. I'm exposing myself. And that surrender, strangely, it's similar to the Lord, where we, God, I, I am worshiping you in spirit and in truth. Truth is nothing hidden. So here I am. I'm hiding nothing. I have no agenda but to honor you. And that's, that's what it is. It's, it's a dependent, depend.
Can I add something to that then? Of course. Because I feel like I've seen a lot of people in, not even judging them, just where they'll say like, I have faith in God, you know? And like, I'm, or I'm trusting. Mostly it's, I'm trusting God in this area of my life, whether it's, uh, finances. And if I look at it, I'm like, no, you, it really just looks like you're lazy. Like you, either don't want to work or do, you know what I mean?
Totally. And I guess, what's the line of like, because I understand the surrender in the sense of like, I'm not doing anything and I give up. I've tried. I've tried. Is there a faith that, well, maybe I should say this, like, the faith with works, without works is dead. Yeah. If I just try to do it on my own, it's also dead. Like, it's also fruitless. Where's the balance?
Well, it's, yeah, I don't know that it's an issue of balance. It's an issue of of understanding what faith is. Uh-huh. Um, faith comes by hearing. Yeah. Hearing by the word. If I avoid the word, what am I doing to my faith? Yeah. Shrinking it. I'm, I'm avoiding the opportunity. So the whole point is, is if, uh, uh, you know, the, the scripture talks about waiting on the Lord. That word waiting means to lie in wait. And so when you go deer hunting, you don't go to downtown New York. No. You know, you don't go to the middle of town and reading. You go to where they are. The whole point is, is you lie in wait to where there is a habit or a repetition of something happening there so that you can take advantage of what's taking place. Waiting on the Lord is if he's moving across town and he's not moving where I am, then I'm going to go across town. I'm going to go find him. Yeah. Because I'm going to, I'm going to lie in wait to where he has made himself available. So it's not sitting in a recliner saying, God, bring it to me. It's sitting on the edge of my seat saying, God, I'm anticipating you because you said you would be found by me if I search for you with all my heart. Wow. And so the issue of growing in faith is not surrender in the sense of doing nothing. It's surrender in the sense of doing what he says to do. And when you do that, you, for example, you're in trouble. You just pour yourself into the word. God, I, I need you to give me a word. And you read, you may read 20 chapters, and then there's a verse that stands out. You found something. What's that going to do? It's going to build in you, yeah, an awareness of the voice of God that imparts faith. So it's not in activity. It's divine activity.
That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I really like that. Um, because I do, I think that the misunderstanding of what faith really is, yeah, leads us to one, do things on my own, try to conjure it up, right? And two, try to wait for God to find me. Yeah. Like, wait for him to activate me. Yeah. And do it. What do you think the line is between, like, um, your good idea and, uh, God-inspired idea? Like, maybe I should ask, like, how much do you think God cares in the sense of, I don't know, I sometimes get to this place, I'm being super honest today, I'm always honest, but sometimes get to this place where I'm like, gosh, I don't know if this is a God idea or just my idea, but I'm just going for it. And, and he, like, how much do you feel like he cares? Like, from that perspective of like, you're really in the wrong, or you're, you know, that we get that we do the right thing, not, not heaven or hell right thing, but does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. There's a, there's a very strange passage in, um, First Kings 8, I think it is. And Solomon is talking about his dad and the Lord. So he just built this temple. They're dedicating the temple. And Solomon says this, since the day God brought Israel out of Egypt, he chose no city in which to build a temple. Okay? So the building of the temple in Jerusalem, one of the most significant events in the entire Old Testament. Since the day God brought Israel up out of Egypt, he never chose a city in which to build a temple. Very next phrase: He chose David, my father. And it was in the heart of my father. Wow. That's awesome. That's amazing. That is amazing. It is amazing. Now, did God put it there? Probably so. But the, but the point that's being emphasized in scripture is that God didn't choose a program. He chose a man. And the man is known for the man after God's heart. I think there's a co-laboring role. I don't want to have my way, instead his. I don't, I've tasted my will, and it's not fun. All I want is his will. But what you do in the journey is sometimes God puts desires in you. Says, whatsoever things you desire, when you pray. What are your desires? While you're praying, what are your desires? Your ambitions? When you're in that place of sweet communion, what are the things that stir up? Pay attention to those. Because often times, those are the offspring of fellowship with God. Those are the things that he births in us. And we, we, we only learn them as we, as we have the liberty as children to think freely, think for ourselves. And I don't want to persuade him to do what I want because I, I really don't. All I want is what he wants. Yeah. You know, to be honest with you, I, I often times, uh, I'm a much better servant than I am son. The servant says, just tell me what to do, because that's all I want to know is I just want to know what to get done. Totally. And the son has to actually think for himself and represent the father well. And sometimes I don't do so good with that. Sometimes I, I do much better with the list. Just give me the list. Give me the 10 things you want me to do, and I'll do those 10 things. And yet, he's looking for something more from me. He wants to see a son who actually thinks consistent with with how his father has dealt with him through the years. And so sometimes he will not speak to us because he's waiting for us to come up with something that's the result of our relationship with him. Wow. So sometimes he's silent because he's putting us into a position to actually think and to actually take risk and to imagine. Yeah. What I've had happen, I've had, I, I remember years ago, I had this situation where the Lord was so clear to me on what to do. I had a certain direction in my life. So, um, a season, he was clear, go here, do this. At the end of that season, I needed to know what to do next. The first time I prayed and fasted, he spoke. The second time I prayed and fasted, he was silent. He got hungry. Yeah. I, exactly. I was on a hunger strike, and he wasn't impressed. And that's exactly what happened is he, he never did talk to me. Never once talked to me about what I was supposed to do. And it came to that moment, you know, that 11:59 moment where, where circumstances are forcing you to decide, you know, door A, B, or C. And I, I just, I was frustrated because I couldn't hear. I was searching the scripture, doing everything I knew to do, nothing. I finally, I went, all right, door C. And I just took it and I opened the door. And he was on the other side. He goes, good job. And I'm, and I'm thinking, this is so frustrating because I, I just want you to tell me what to do. I just want you to tell me what to do. But sometimes he speaks to us through our desires. Yeah. Sometimes. And that's, that's what surrender does. Surrender sanctifies the desires. It's the reason Jesus could come to his disciples after three and a half years of him disciplining and refining and speaking into their lives. After three and a half years, four times in three chapters, he says, whatever you ask for will be done. Wow. That he wasn't giving permission to be selfish. He was saying, listen, I've done a work in your heart where I expect things to come to the surface that are the result of our relationship. Wow. Not the result of command. See, what, what I've been wanting is the, is I want the command. Just tell me what to do. Yeah. He's wanting something to grow in me that's because of a journey we've been on.
It's amazing. That's the part that scares me. I know. Makes me nervous. Yeah. Yeah. It's real.
Yeah. I, um, I often, I think about this kind of stuff a lot, especially in the context of my life because I just feel like my life's been so crazy. At least I look at my life and I go like, gosh, I never ever thought I would end up here, you know? And all the twists and turns and just the, the, the troubles, whether it's the, my nervous breakdown I went through, or you, the divorce, or things like that, where I just go like, man, I never thought I'd end up in this spot, you know? Lauren's mom and all that stuff. And, um, I often think, what, what does God care about the most? Like, what is most important to him in, in all of the stuff? And I don't have a great conclusion except for I'm starting to lean towards like, I, in, in a lot of ways, I feel like the Lord is most interested in just building me rather than me getting stuff done. I don't know. Like, I just keep concluding, like, I have something I'm trying to accomplish, God. I'm trying, like, in this moment, I'm trying to heal a bunch of men, or, you know, lead a church, or raise kids in a family. And not that any of that's insignificant, yeah, but I keep continually going back to my life and in looking at the, I mean, you feel like you go through so many hard things that you're, you're coming out of going through hard things. But I don't think that's the case someday. Yeah. Yeah. And then, but, and then I, so I've been thinking a lot about like, I think that you're so more interested in building me than you are what I even produce. What's your thoughts on that?
That's totally true. That's 100% true. He's the one, you know, he can create anything he wants. He can, he owns everything. It's all his. The one thing that he can't get, there's one possession that he cannot get, that's my heart. Yeah. That has to be a gift for me to him. It's the only thing. Everything else, he's, he owns. Even the devil, he owns everything. He owns. But, but my heart is my gift to him. And realizing the uniqueness of a moment that I can give him my heart. Think about this verse. We, we know it well out of Proverbs three. Trust in the Lord, yeah, with all your heart. So I'm all in. And trust. I only have one option. That's you. I don't have plan B. Your plan A. And that's all I have. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your, your own understanding. There's a divine understanding that we get from scripture. And then there's my own ideas that I would try to force. And he says, lean not in your own understanding. In all your ways. So how many ways do we have in our life? Well, you're, you're a dad. Yeah. You're a leader of men. Yeah. You're a husband. Yeah. You know, you're involved. Your son. You're involved in all these. You're part of a community. So these are all your ways. He says, in all your ways, acknowledge Him. That word acknowledge is the same word, uh, in Genesis where it says, and Adam knew Eve, wow, and bore a son. Wow. So it's an experiential knowledge. So he says, in all your ways, all right, you're a dad. In all your ways, I'm going down the dad road. I want to know you experientially in my dad role. So now the best dad in the universe is now influencing me, my f, in my fatherhood. Yeah. In other words, I'm, I'm recognizing, but more than that, I'm acknowledging. He's here. But I'm drawing near to know him as a father. Yeah. Does that make sense? So in all your ways, acknowledge Him. And he'll direct your path. So come to, come to know him in that way. As the businessman, come to know him as the creative, come to know him as, you know, as the, the songwriters, the whatever. Come to know him in that way. And out of that interaction with him, that involvement with him, that exchange with him, out of that comes the direction.
It's amazing. I mean, there's a lot of excitement in that. Yeah. There's a lot of, I, there's a lot of excitement in the fact that, um, that I have an opportunity in no matter which area I'm living in, that, that not just God wants to influence me in that, but that I could, I could know God in that area of my life. Yeah. And I could be directed by him and reflect him even in that area. And this idea that the one thing that God doesn't own is my heart, that's a really incredible thought. Yeah. It puts, really, into perspective. It puts so much into perspective why, um, the purpose of of having to live a life of faith and having to live a life where he doesn't just lay it all out in front of us, right? Like he's so, when I think about it in that context, I'm thinking through like, God is so interested in me knowing him, relying on him, trusting him, following him. Like, those are all the signs that I would know I have your heart, right? Like, like when I think about my wife, wife, I'm like, oh, my wife really knows me. Yeah. She really trusts me, and she believes me, and she wants to be close to me. And when I think through like my walk with God, it makes a lot of sense. Like, yep, that's why I put the tree in the middle of the garden. I would not have done that. I would have put it up on a little hill. Yeah. A big hill. Yeah. He's so unafraid of our mistakes. Yeah. And so unafraid of, uh, our poor decisions. And so much more passionate about us, us being able to give our heart to him, being able to make that big, bold choice to, to give it to him. That's incredible. Beautiful.
I want to be a man of faith. Yeah. You know? Amen. So much. I want to go down in my family's history of being a man of faith, you know? I want God to look at me and say, that's a guy who believes. And we all do, you know? Every man wants to be, every man listening to this wants to be a man of faith, you know? Where you walk with God, and you believe with God, and you live your life according to God. Is what of the most inspiring things growing up watching my dad is, uh, when he would do those experiments with God, where he'd wake up in the morning and ask God what his day was going to be, and God would show him, you know? And he was starting to believe, starting to learn how to stretch that that muscle and the prophetic voice. And, and it's, that doesn't always work, by the way. So if guys are doing that, like, it's those seasons where God graces you with like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to show you what your day is going to be. And then there's other times when. But I grew up, it's really interesting, like, I grew up in a family that was modeling what your family was doing, because my dad didn't, he didn't have a dad, and he didn't have a, a, a model of what walking by faith looked like. And you guys are so radical, you know, so radical today, but really radical, very practical in that giving food away. Like, we have all these stories of, in Weaverville, of us giving food away when we didn't have any food, and someone would come knock on the door and give us food. And, you know, Paul Schmidt, who was a, a sheriff in town, who they didn't have any food, I think, and God told them to, what, make breakfast? Like, put out the plates, and someone brought them breakfast. And like, these stories are famous to us because these were the stones, right? We crossed through the Jordan, and these were the stones that my family gave me that I've remembered my whole entire life.
That's beautiful. Yeah. And the gift, really, the gift that, uh, you and my dad really imparted to me was walking out what you believe and unwavering, regardless of the amount of stress that you're under, regardless of what the circumstances look like. I remember, um, we, it was a, a really tough year financially. I can't remember when it wasn't a tough year financially for my dad, honestly, besides, you know, now or whatever. But I just, I never wanted to be a businessman because I watched what he, he went through. Yeah. And, and one, we were having another year like that. And I
was very young. I was probably 11 or 12, and my parents didn't have a bunch of money for Christmas presents. Actually, didn't have any money. My mom was saying to my dad and kind of crying through the fact that they, they weren't going to be able to get presents. And something happened. You probably know the story better than I do, but something happened where they got a raffle ticket, or they put a raffle ticket in at the Wagon Wheel Pizza, um, for a, they were raffling off like a video game machine, an arcade. Um, Defender was the game. And I, the only thing I remember is looking out the window and it being in the back of my dad's pickup truck and Defender was being brought home.
You know, and to my parents, to our family, that was a miracle. Yeah, we saw the hand of God absolutely move in our family, and he's been so kind. You know, God's been so kind, yeah, to our family. He's been so kind over the years of, you know, gifting us his mercy and his love and, and showing up when we've asked in different ways. And but I do, I, I think all of our hearts are to, to be men of faith who can, yeah, who day in and day out, um, can, can walk that. Because I think faith, it seems to me that if you nail faith, I mean, obviously faith without love is, is nothing. But if you really nail faith, a lot of other things work in your life. And if you don't get faith right as a believer, nothing else really works. Good. It just doesn't work. It's a ball of anxiety, this, this Christian walk without faith is just a ball of anxiety. It really feels like that. Totally right. And, um, yeah, I'd love any, any last thoughts that you have on, on this subject and, and maybe, um, just pray, praying for the men. Um, you can set yourself up to grow in faith. You can set yourself up to increase in trust. Trust. There's just a couple things you do. Number one is you've got to expose yourself to scripture. You have to. And it has to stick. If you have to write it on a card and you take it with you throughout the day and you pull it out a dozen times to look at a verse that stood out to you in the morning, you have to do something on your part to keep the word of God active in you. Number one. Number two, if you want to be a person of faith, then you have to commit yourself to look for what God has done and is doing, and not for what he hasn't done. It's the small, tiny cloud in the sky. Totally. You have to find what he's doing. You know, it's a great example, the small cloud. If your attention is on what he's doing, the empty sky, except for that tiny cloud, won't impress you. Yeah. You'll be, you'll be moved by what he's doing. And that's the whole deal. Is, is so many people can tell me what God hasn't done. Well, I can move it this far, but I, but I, I can't move, lift it all the way. All right. But you couldn't move it at all when we started, right? Yeah. But it's not done. Well, that's technically you're right. But there has to be celebration for what God is doing. The scripture says John 6 says that Jesus, um, he, he multiplied the food for, for the multitude, so probably 15,000 people or more. And it says when he gave thanks, he broke it. When he gave thanks. And the whole point was his thankfulness for what, what was his thankfulness for what wasn't enough. Oh, wow. Yeah. His thankfulness started with what wasn't enough. Golly, it's so convicting. And that's it. That's the cloud the size of a man. Great example. It's, it's celebrating what God has done because in that, that he has done is the seed for the miracle you want. That feels like the biggest pro tip for faith. Yeah. Is celebrate what God has done. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's it. That's it. If, if you determined to keep your attention there, it doesn't mean we ignore problems. Yeah. You know, the way I, I like to, uh, instruct people, faith doesn't deny the existence of a problem. It denies the problem a place of influence. That's good. Yeah. Does not deny the existence of a problem. That's living denial. That doesn't help anyone. Faith denies the problem of place of influence. That's good. Yeah. I, uh, I feel blessed because I get to continue this conversation for the rest of my life with you. But they don't. And Bill, you're such a blessing. I mean, just to sit here and talk, thanks, talk about this stuff, um, is incredible. I, uh, I love that. I love that you took us there. There is two roads. We always have two roads, uh, every single day that we can go down. That, that when we wake up in the morning, I have two choices to make. And the, the choice is to look at what I do have or to look at what I don't have. To look at what is happening or what isn't happening. And I remember writing that down. It's one of the things I wrote down, um, when I was in South Carolina last year, working through that, that hard time with Lauren's mom, is I very specifically remember journaling down, you have two roads to look at. You can take this road, which is full of fact and full of truth and, and just validates my powerless feeling. Or, yeah, I can pull myself out of that powerless feeling by looking at what is also true and what is also full of facts. But down this road is also, it takes trust, but it also ignites my hope. That's the interesting thing too. And, um, I know we're closing, but one of the things that I think, one of the biggest hindrances to faith is areas in our life that are unhealed past wounds. The hopelessness, right? I would you say that that's one of the biggest hindrances to, to faith? It sure can. Yeah. It sure can. If, if you're actively dealing with what he's putting his finger on, you're always positioned for great faith. Yeah. But if you are rejecting his touch in a certain area, it will affect you. Yeah. You know, we never arrive, so we always got something he's working on. But if I'm resisting him, then I have really short-circuited my access to great faith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks again, Bill. I appreciate it. Was fun. Yeah. Guys, this week your activation. So every week we've done an activation in this series. And, um, what I want you to do is take an area of your life that you've been looking for breakthrough, whether that's your marriage, your kids, your finances, and I want you to just write down a list of what God has done in that area already. And it may take you a little bit, right? You may, I've sat there for a long time before in places of my life where I start out by going, nothing good has happened in this area. And then, um, by, by meditating on it, right? Thinking through it with the Holy Spirit, asking God, asking him to put, you know, his lens on you and starting to see, let's build up some hope. Let's sow in some hope. Let's sow in some faith. Let's look at this area that is maybe just the size of a man's fist, this cloud, and begin to speak to that thing and see what God is doing in your life. And, um, it's, it's fun to build the testimony, uh, of, of God. It's fun to go down those paths and to go, oh, and that's one of the things I've seen in my life is when I start to look, I start to go, ah, I see he's doing this and this happened and this. Okay, something's happening. It really is shifting and changing. And so that's your homework this week, guys. Go and map out what God is doing. Otherwise, have an incredible week. Stay brave out there, men. Hey, brave men. Hopefully you love this week's episode. Listen, if you have not subscribed to our podcast, you are already behind. Go ahead and click right here to subscribe to our podcast. And if you have not watched last week's episode, you can click right here and watch last week's episode. And listen, if you want to upgrade your wardrobe, you can check out some of our new hats that we have in stock and all our other swag. Go to bravecode.org and you can look at our store there. Have a great week. We'll see you next week.