Who or What is Jesus? -- Swedenborg and Life

All right everybody, welcome back to another episode of Swedenborg and Life. Today we are going to wade into the topic of "Who Or What Is Jesus Christ?" Our topics will be: "What God/Jesus Is," "The universal name," and "The Lord."

It's hard to think of any historical figure with an impact on the human race as large as that of Jesus Christ, and it's a polarizing legacy. To some people Jesus is the center of their lives, while others have all kinds of negative associations with that name. And interestingly, Jesus is often a dividing line in the spiritual versus religious discussion. People within traditional Christianity are often skeptical of reports of out-of-body experiences, auras, and spirit contact, while people who are enthusiastic about those kinds of things can come to see the Bible and Jesus as something with little to offer.

Swedenborg paradoxically said yes to all of the above. Here was a guy who meditated, reported daily contact with a spiritual world, could see auras and representations in nature, wrote that all religions could lead to heaven, and yet somehow centered his entire world view on Jesus. We're going to take a little time here today to start to look at how that works. Stay tuned.

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All right, we're back. It's Monday again. Thanks, everyone, for joining me. I thought it would be a fun topic, what we're talking about today, and we'll see how the whole thing pans out. There's a couple reasons for going with this one and we'll get to those in a minute, once I introduce everybody. My name is Curtis. I'm with the Swedenborg Foundation, who is a non-profit that tries to get Swedenborg's ideas out into the conversation. And with me we have friend of the show Dr. Jonathan Rose who is the series editor of the NCE translation of Swedenborg's works. Thanks for coming back on the show, Jonathan.

Thanks for having me. Great to see you.

So I thought we could chat about this, and two reasons initially popped into my mind. One is that it's about to be Christmas.

That's right. And Christmas is often associated with Jesus Christ.

For some reason.

Yeah. And then also serendipitously you and your team have published this, which is a little short work written by Swedenborg that deals entirely with Jesus Christ. When you see "The Lord" as this is called, written by Swedenborg, it's about Jesus.

That's right.

Right, um, so with those two things coming together, I thought we could maybe take a look at this whole phenomenon, because as we were setting it up, like, a lot of people have heard of Jesus, a lot of people have all these opinions about him. Where does he fit in with Swedenborg? And as you were mentioning before the show it's really a unique take on the Jesus phenomenon.

Yeah.

So let's structure it a little bit. We'll get... Oh, before we get there, let's... we want your voices in here, obviously, as always. Leave your questions and comments and we'll get to them in the second half of our show. So if there's anything we don't cover let us know. Okay, let's get to our first topic for discussion.

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All right, so we've labeled this first one "What God/Jesus Is." And so we want to get a little into, Swedenborg obviously was somebody who acknowledged the phenomenon of Jesus Christ, and this is something important. But what exactly is that? So I wanted to open it up with this quote from Swedenborg, and we can go from there. This is from his book True Christianity: "'The Father' means the divine nature as an origin, 'the Son' means the divine-human nature that came from that origin, and the 'Holy Spirit' means the divine influence that radiates out. These are three aspects of one God. Another way of putting it is that the Father's divinity means something like the soul in us, the divine-human manifestation means something like our body, which comes from our soul, and the Holy Spirit means something like our actions which come from both our body and our soul. Then we see three essences that belong to one and the same person. Together they form one indivisible essence."

Okay, so that's our opening salvo. So he's talking about the Christian idea of the Trinity and putting sort of a spin on it, where he equates the Trinity to kind of the body, soul, and actions in us. So what do you have to say to that?

There was a lot in that quote, and the first thing that comes to mind is, I think that word "indivisible" is so important. What I think Swedenborg did in trying to come to understand, so many people, whether you're in Christianity or outside of Christianity, wrestle in some way with "Who is this Jesus?" If he's nobody, or if he's a mere human being, why is he so famous and billions of people celebrate his birth every year? But there's just mysteries about it -- how does he relate to God, and what does it say in the Bible and so on. What Swedenborg did as a philosopher was look at the indivisibility. He looked at the qualities of God and he said that the the qualities of God are particularly: omnipotence, meaning all-powerful; omnipresence, meaning that he's everywhere; and omniscience, meaning that he's all-knowing.

Now those three... He ticked off some important boxes there.

That's right, and those three qualities have the... If you think about omnipresent -- let's take omnipresent.

Right. Picture in your mind the whole universe, and then picture a sheet of paper that goes to infinity in every direction. It never ever stops. (I do this all the time anyway.)

Yes, right, it's very relaxing. And no matter how far it goes it never stops. Well, how would you divide that piece of paper in half?

Yeah. There's no half.

Well, you just get to the end of it and then you start cutting, right?

Right. There's no end and so you don't know where the middle is. You know, there's no end, no beginning, and so how would... It's indivisible. That's an essential thing to understand about the nature of divinity. With human beings, when you have a father and a mother and then they have a child, that child is a separate individual, as we all know, from the parents. They may have certain characteristics of the parents but they have their own will, their own thoughts, their own worldview, and so on, and it's just separate. Where the parent is, the child is not. You know, they cannot... they're not... They cannot occupy exactly the same space.

That's right. They're in two different spaces. But with God it's different.

So can I ask for that graphic to go up? We put a lot of money into this.

Yeah, it's just beautiful, isn't it? See I think people think somehow that the Infinite, uh, like you have God and then God got together with Mary in this notion of the virgin birth. So here we're getting at the Christmas story.

Right, this idea: where did Jesus come from? Okay in this graphic we've got infinite A plus finite X on the top.

That's right, and what I think some people, Christians think may have happened was that there was infinite A, infinite being A, got together with a finite being (meaning Mary) and then had infinite being B, you know, the Son of God, as if that was a totally different being. But if you realize that the Infinite is indivisible, it doesn't work this way. You know, you can have an infinite number of finite beings, but you can only have one Infinite Being. There's only one Infinite. You can't have multiple infinites. And so the way Swedenborg sees Jesus is that there's infinite A, which is God, plus finite X, which is Mary, that comes together to create a being who is infinite A on the inside (because you can't have an infinite B, there's no such thing). And this is Swedenborg saying that there's, uh, you know that the soul of Jesus is the divinity, but the body, it came from Mary.

That's right. And so a fusion of infinite and finite, and that's this box we see in the graph.

That's right. In that quote that you had before, it said that it was like our soul that we have in in us, and then Jesus was like the body of that same... you know, it's not a separate person. You know, there's been a thought over time that there must be three Gods up there in some way, or three persons of the Godhead.

Right. But Swedenborg says no, you can't, you know philosophically you can't divide that.

So Jesus Christ as a person is God inside a body.

That's right, God inside a human body. Not separate. It's a very wild thought.

Can we go back to that graphic? I don't know if that's possible. But yeah, the idea of having the Infinite on the inside and then finite on the outside is like... it's like putting a jet engine on a, you know, rollerblades or something. You know, how do you have those two things connected to each other?

Yeah. Over time, what Swedenborg believes happened is that (if we go to the next graphic that goes along with this) that Infinite on the inside transformed the finite and made it infinite. And that's why Jesus is said to have disappeared from the tomb.

Right. The whole flesh, everything, just "poof," you know, it was gone. It all rose up. I think that's a very interesting account of what's at the heart of Christianity. It's different.

Yeah. Different than what you hear elsewhere.

Right. And he's saying that there was a process. Everything is according to order -- spiritual world, physical world, all that. So there was a process there in which God who is omnipresent was somehow present in a different way, you know, inside this body of a person, experiencing life as a person and through that life and through transformation, the same sort of spiritual path we go on but this was God doing it on a divine scale, he was able to make divine even the body, and that you have this matter acting in ways matter can't normally act, but according to the laws of order.

That's right. And and that's why Jesus says things that would be crazy for a normal person to say like, I am light itself; I am life; I am the resurrection and the life. You know, he says things that are hard to reconcile with just being a mere human being like you and me.

Right. I think that infinity that was inside there helps to explain what was going on no one comes to the father except through me and so the father is the soul that's right coming to it through the through the body or through what you interact with or the finite version of it and I would say the same of you when I when I try to you know uh touch base with you I want to communicate with you I don't go into a seance and try to raise your soul Curtis so Curtis you know I find your body and I go through the body you know the only way to get the Curtis's soul is through Curtis's body and come conversely uh you know if you're asleep if we're doing this show and you fall asleep which happens during the break sometimes and I I can't communicate with you until the body wakes up so there's got to be truth kind of working in tandem that's right

All right so that's that's our way too brief initial for this is sort of what is the phenomenon at least it's light fair you know yeah yeah it's not a very big topic but what we want to try to do here to you guys at home is explain a little bit of what's the phenomenon of Jesus what is that in Swedenborg's worldview it's it's not that it's not uh this a son a separate god this is like this is god in a form you could walk up to and give a hug or shake his hand you know so now we're going to take a look in our next section of you know why just Jesus so let's go to our next uh segment

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Because if I was watching this show I might say okay so there's this whole history of exclusivity with the Christian tradition yes you know it's like hey man you're not a Christian you're going to go to hell uh you and Jesus is the only way and Jesus will say things like I'm you know I am the way the truth and the life so if that's how can this Jesus thing be so central to everything what about everybody in china before Jesus is coming I mean there's all this whole civilization did they not connect with god and what about everybody since then who hasn't hasn't known Jesus or you know had a bad taste in their mouth about Christianity you know how is this universal so I want to get into what what is we're calling this segment the universal name so let's take a look at uh this this first quote this is from divine providence um some could point out that some people do not know the lord and again when Jesus when Swedenborg means Jesus he says the lord that's right so some people do not know Jesus and that that apart from the lord there is no salvation but no one is saved because of knowing about the lord we are saved because we live by his commandments further the lord is known to everyone who believes in god because the lord is the god of heaven and earth as he tells us in matthew 28 18 and elsewhere particularly people outside the church have more of a concept of a personal god than Christians do and there's a Swedenborg critiquing the Christian church of his time that's right and people who have a concept of a personal god and lead good lives are accepted by the lord unlike Christians they believe in god as one in both person and essence further they think about god as they lead their lives they treat evils as sins against god and people who do this are thinking about god as they lead their lives in that last sentence especially people who don't do evil things are thinking about god not I almost could read that as you know if yeah if you're not doing bad things whether you even realize it or not you're thinking you're connecting with god with this this Jesus thing right that's right that's right and it gets down to you know people will cite that those biblical things that you have to believe in his name or that right there's no other way to get to the father except for him oh do some people say that yes I met those people have you have you and and so they cite that idea of the name yes the name of Jesus is important Swedenborg has a very very interesting take on that there's a lot of biblical passages about the name uh it's apparent sometimes you can see that the name actually means the quality as it does in this world if you said well you know how many names do we have for that supreme court justice seat or something you know you're talking about qualities that people have that would be good enough you know we have a few good names yeah exactly you don't don't soil my good name or something yeah that's right the name means the quality and uh so if you see it as a quality of love and wisdom which are the highest human qualities uh that's what it's talking about it's not talking about knowing I mean Jesus is somewhat different in different languages or what you know what I mean it was just might be spelled different ways you're not talking about a word in english or something you're talking about the quality of love and wisdom and that as people live their lives uh if they're living a godly life in whatever religious tradition they're part of what Swedenborg is saying there is that they are having a personal interaction with that god you know that is who Swedenborg would call Jesus that they're interacting with whatever it doesn't matter what the you know it doesn't matter what english letters or letters in whatever language they use as a name for that the quality the is the name that that it's important Jesus is the embodiment of the as you said the highest qualities love and wisdom because god is love and wisdom and those come together and and we can you know it sounds like oh love and wisdom these are just sort of esoteric like no those are living things and you meet those and you can talk to us and that's what Jesus is and that you can have this the relationship is with those qualities so if you're in your life and you're basically loving the rest of the human race you you don't realize it but just in the feelings of that and the nuances and the actions you are interacting with that part of the divine so you're that's right relationship and when we feel compassion for somebody or we hear a story on the news and it sort of makes our heart break a little bit we are feeling that quality yeah you know we're having an interaction with with that quality of compassion yeah so it's like a bonus and that's universal that's in all the religion that's in all yeah and all the people on earth have access to that it's like it's a both and sort of the the Christian tradition and these stories about Jesus these can be incredibly potent and that Swedenborg spends you know so much time you know teasing out the meaning of the the Bible stories it's very important and it can be a rocket ship to get you into this spiritual path however it's not only that you can find the path in other places as well you can even be interacting with that same thing in other places as well so that's that's something that you know obviously we haven't conveyed the full thing of today but something I wanted to try to communicate a bit of to you guys at home is this this fusion that Swedenborg represents of this like really really detailed um understanding of Jesus and that this is so central but yet it's not you don't have to be there to be connected to god so um hopefully we've confused you enough that you'll try to go sort it out on your own and get it right so let's just quickly before we end talk a little bit about the book the lord all right this is an important book from this angle given that um

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What Swedenborg does in here particularly for because whenever you bring up Jesus uh the Bible's not far behind for a lot of people right and people who are Bible-based which I am myself oh you want to know well wait a minute how does that fit with script there's no scripture that speaks against that so you guys might be watching this show and saying like okay who's Swedenborg you know some people might be tuning into the show and saying like Jesus I don't like Jesus why are we talking about Jesus other people might be tuning in and saying who are you to say all that make up all this stuff about Jesus the Bible tells you about it yeah yes Bible so yeah continue that's right and so this this book is just it's just a slender book of just over 100 pages but it's full of scriptures where he's laying out the case for this one god and he uses both the old testament which is interesting the hebrew scriptures and the and the new testament the greek scriptures to make a case for this oneness and the fact that Jesus is the only god he uses that passage in matthew where Jesus says all power has been given to me in heaven on earth to you know as kind of a centerpiece of of what he's talking about it's it's awesome stuff it's it's deep but he's he's got real scriptural uh Foundation in there yeah so if you really want to dig into this you might be interested in this book go to Swedenborg.com you can download it for free or you can order a nice paperback like this we'll try to put a link at the in the description of this show so you can get your hands on it if you want to get into it more and more for now though let's hear what do you guys think about this whole phenomenon did we was that intelligible what we were saying um how would you upgrade it and what would you like to know what would what's your input we'll get to our questions right after this quick video break

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All right now it's time for the most exciting segment of the show the questions part where we get to hear what's on your mind and hopefully you know go into avenues and areas of the discussion that we missed initially so let's see what everybody's saying and feel free to jump in you guys anytime and ask more questions leave more comments so let's see our first one this is from esteban sorry for saying this sometimes I think Jesus had schizophrenia a god who's praying to god hey man that's legit because it does it does so we're we're sitting here Jonathan Rose and I saying like uh hey man you know it's all one god it's all or not but if you read the stories of Jesus if you take those to be true he certainly is um hey you know that would be like like me saying okay Curtis I'd really like some pizza you know that that does seem a little bit like not something you want to model yourself after right if we I don't know if we can go back to that first graphic with the infinite and the finite on there but I'm sure people can remember it anyway the um if you picture a being that has infinity on the inside and is finite on the outside Jesus consciousness Swedenborg says was alternating back and forth sometimes he was conscious of that infinity inside yes and that's when he would say the father and I are one right say before abraham was I am which is you know really mind-boggling thing to say not a very finite thing to say but when he was conscious of his finiteness and his frailty that's when he's praying to the father as if it's something separate from himself and we and we can take that down yeah we mimic we mimic that journey in that people will say like oh I was you know I was not my best self I went and you just see in life that you vacillate between yeah okay I'm really plugged in I'm living by sort of my highest ideals to like I'm just out of control you know um and and that that we're going through something and he was going through something similar and you can and Swedenborg kind of divides up all the these Jesus passages into uh what examination and that's right yeah I don't know being out and glorification and you can see that there's somewhere he's all like oh yeah I'm with it and the others he's not so he was going through a larger version of the journey that we go on and if you follow uh if you're so unfortunate as to love a sports team and follow how that sports team is doing you can get you'll see times when they are in their glory in what they're doing and other times when they are useless and they can do nothing and uh so there's a kind of order there we all go through that we all have days where we're we're so you know sharp focused or at a great point and then sometimes you can't even you know find your keys or know you know like remember what paper is or how anything works that would never happen the key is losing no no no not to one of us not to one of us we're not gonna say who um okay so let's thanks esteban this is a great comment let's get to our next one Roger so why did god come to earth why was it necessary and so I had that's a great question Roger and I initially said to Jonathan when we were playing this show we just can't get into that because it's too long but let's not tell it if we can so why do you want me to give a go yeah yeah um it had to do or this may be a little um I don't know how this will come across but it had to do with being able to address evil but do it safely without blowing the evil away it would be like the power of the sun trying to deal with something on the far side of the earth you know the sun can't get close to the earth it'll cook the whole thing yes but by having this earthly being that could go around the far side it could but has the sun inside it it could bring that sun into the darkness without killing everything in in sight uh that's kind of a short story but so there was there's this problem Swedenborg if you look into Swedenborg's kind of view of consciousness he says that it's almost it's all this sort of interconnected web you know that the people that you die and you go to the afterlife and you're either you know you know helping out the good side or the bad side and that affects the kind of thoughts and feelings people get here and that at the time when Jesus was coming it was so uh there was so much negativity that it was uh overwhelming people couldn't and that part of what it was was yeah that same evil couldn't be god couldn't come and deal with it like you're saying because you just it's too much power but since he had this human side to him this side where he's forgetting at times he can be attacked by doubts and fears and and all the kinds of stuff that comes after us but because it was coming after him and he had this core inside him then he could uh you know cook it to the that's the point where he could push it back and say you know it's probably you know and and by doing that he he got he didn't deal with it all for all time you know some people think he just like eliminated the possibility of centers no he just got the power to be able to help all of us when we were struggling yes and there's certain scriptures that speak to that and the way that Swedenborg is describing the the spiritual world and god all this stuff it's complex it's as complex as the physical world you know if we're sitting here like okay why did the big bang happen well it was because there was a singularity and then everything was pushing out like that's right and like first of all I'm not an expert in it second of all it's very complex and we can guess and that it's it's not just like uh okay well god did it for this and this is the we're describing some of the general things Swedenborg reported but it would all you know it all has to do with the machinery of human minds how that works um how the entirety of reality so it's we're just poking a little bit at it um but it but it has that complexity behind it I just feel like it's worth mentioning because we're giving these sort of like nuanced weird explanations but that's just how life is is nuanced weird if you ask somebody why does an engine work or something there's all this weird complexity to it yeah so great question Roger let's get to our the next one is from Marsha on Facebook why did Jesus have to sacrifice himself which you know why yeah why is there so much um why is there so much pain in that story and I've kind of liked opening with you so that I don't have to think of it that's good would you mind I I would love to there's some passage in scripture where Jesus says I have power to lay down my life and I have power to take it up again uh and it's if you look at the crucifixion story he does not go like a victim into that circumstance uh what he needed to do there he that was part of his purification process and so he took that on all the hatred and he maintained love he was loving through that whole thing right uh that was transforming him and so he will he knew that that was the whole reason he came into this world was to go through that moment of transformation uh again I don't want to get into other ideas there are sort of a lot of mistaken ideas about what Jesus was doing he's the anger of god that's right if he is god there's no other god who's angry you know yes so that doesn't make sense and then you get into sort of the issues of whoa like why would that make you less angry when when people's children are killed they don't generally get less angry right yes that's right so there's a whole yes that's right there's a whole that there's a lot of sort of the transformation that he that he went through was complete that was the final stage it was the final test it was like a a challenge or something like the trials that we go through and the uh the result of that was his complete transformation you know that was the end of his transformation and you mentioned the trials that we go through and this is another topic I'd love to do for a show but Swedenborg calls uh tests or temptations or trials you know there's a couple of different words translated with that we basically we are improved spiritually through struggles and if you've had a life you know that we we struggle hard things happen but it's generally sort of thought of that those build character and this is how you really develop empathy and compassion and humility and kind of have your uh you know self-aggrandizement kind of cut down can be transformative and harder and experience it you know some people have been through just the worst thing you can imagine if you said if you had it do over again would you do it again and then say well it was it cost me everything that I cared about but I can see that it really blessed me in the long run yeah because you underst so you understand some of the nuances of what's gained through that so Swedenborg says that's how we're moved from sort of the hellish mindset to a heavenly mindset in that that Jesus is following the same path and that this I was just reading in this book in this book the other day I was just reading um that the the cross that was the final struggle there you had like taking on this huge amount of evil and you had this pain at the same time and that this that was what was necessary to make this connection fine and his staying in love through that whole experience yeah and still forgiving everybody and still being loving yeah what he passed the test yeah I if I if I bang my head on something I'm done like I don't I don't love that cabinet anymore so it's a tough thing to do oh it is um he's good give him props where he deserves that's right okay so thanks very much for that question let's take a look at another this is from chuck blair100 on YouTube why do you believe Christ had to be born as a baby why didn't he just zap in this is a great question chuck what why didn't he just zap in as uh you know uh fully grown and then when that impressed people more you know like wow you're already here you didn't do anything you must be divine I'm gonna before I throw it to you as is our custom I'm gonna say order everything is done I was blabbering about order before god doesn't just god doesn't work outside the system god is the system you want to make a human being you come through the channels of order which human beings are made through and you just think about it you know physically you got to have the right environment to assemble a baby and the god has designed all these environments and so that that's what I'm going to start with and then can you please fix it yeah they no that's great and the um uh there's a lot to this and Swedenborg gets way way into it uh but basically it has to do with that there had to be a mind that was built up and that's how minds are built yeah I mean it's the same path we go through in a sense that there's a there's a soul that builds your body in the womb uh but we don't know anything about it you have to be born and develop a mind and then bit by bit your mind starts to become one with that soul that's in there it's that's all going through too much at one time but that's what Jesus had to follow the same order that we all follow partly because he was showing us here's how that works and he was showing how even the worst things all the pain and the craziness that we go through can be transformative there's a way of holding it yeah where it can be transformative so he went through you know he was not he wasn't um you know speaking six languages at the age of six months or what you know yes he was a baby he was a drooling little baby and he did the stuff the babies did because that's the order of it he built up his mind through that it's something there's so much in there about this this is a template this is something that allowed because Swedenborg's accident that we go through right teething and teens and so on you know that like that's this is the order the holy journey that we're on you know the the the sequence and the progression there's some meaning in it there's the meaning of the universe in it and so he was going through that same system because that's where we all are and that's where he could get the work done so those are a few thoughts on it thank you very much some questions yeah yeah you guys are you guys are doing great as you always do let's take a look at another one this is from zen soul I think Jesus is what being the embodiment of love and wisdom is and that way any person can be Jesus however when people judge and condemn people in the name of Jesus what is actually that is actually going against what Jesus is what do you guys think well you you saw before that Swedenborg was saying actually you know outside the Christian church there's a lot of people who are more connected to this to Jesus than than inside because he was you know there was you know theocracy in in europe at the time it was really like we think we have it bad now if somebody pickets you know but like things were really intensely bad yeah from the Christian church then and and so there's plenty of very good Christians who who have a genuine connection to to love and are some of the nicest people and genuine connection to Jesus Christ but you also get what what he's referencing which is people who are say oh yeah I'm Christian I love Jesus and and you're going to hell and acting really nasty um and there's this disconnect as he's pointing out of like you might be in touch with the name of Jesus but as of the qualities of love and wisdom which he's saying can show up in anyone which you know you know Swedenborg would say that's that is Jesus with you those qualities in you you know that's right um that that's that's the real connection there yeah and Jesus says the works that I do you will do also because I go to my father and greater works than these will you do um I messed up that quote but you know the gist of it we'll fix it in post that's right the um uh I think that is the vision is that the process that Jesus went through now I don't think we I don't think we become uh the infinite god or whatever there's only one infinite sure but we are vessels for that and so then you can get an unlimited number of people who are vessels for that energy of that love and wisdom and compassion yeah what a tremendous world this has the possibility of becoming uh through that presence of you know being one if Jesus says what he wants is is not to sort of be near us be in us and we are in him that's that's the yeah that's the goal and this is sort of that only through Jesus are people saved which is only through love and wisdom you know in inside you that's why you saved from ego from connecticut yeah all those kind of qualities so right and we're going to be for our correspondence thing today in a minute or two we're going to be talking about glass and how that lets light through the Swedenborg yeah this describes heaven as you know angels are people who are letting god through come through them to do things so that's cool let's take another one uh these are fun so this is mike blackbird Christ was not his name but more his title and my correct Christed consciousness for example so absolutely that's right Christ means the anointed and and uh that is more of a title his his name was Jesus uh Christ was a title meaning the anointed one and what does Jesus mean Jesus means jaw saves jaws the old testament god is the savior and that's that actually speaks to our point tonight too that he was wearing a name that said I am the old testament you know I'm the I'm the old testament god I am the savior people often divide those think of the angry god in the old testament the nice god of Jesus who came here yeah but his name said well no I'm I'm both I'm I'm jaw saves and that gets a little into correspondences in Swedenborg's interpretation of the old testament and that he seems like god is anger there but this is actually talking about the inner life of human beings and of Jesus Christ and that's right so it's a there's a lot of books on it if you can see in Jonathan's shot there's a bunch on the bookshelf back there there's a lot of material there so there's a lot of nuance to it there it is um that's like a quarter of Swedenborg's books behind Jonathan uh okay so great great great thought let's let's take uh we'll take a few more here um this is drive by poet on YouTube what's the significance of the crucifixion in the cross what does Jesus mean when he's on the cross and he says why have you forsaken me so that's a great one and I what I would imagine based on our conversation here so far is that there you have kind of the the epitome of this I'm not feeling connected to god's state that we were mentioning before um where it where he's not really just feeling like it's it's all I'm I'm losing now I'm in I'm suffering and I'm losing which is a state I feel like we get to that state yeah like what that's right where are you like what and you know not even necessarily asking that of god but just what was happening you know yeah so so that's that's one significance I see yeah yeah I think that's awesome and I I see it as the final moment of separation it's an amazing moment of agony and I think it's genuine you know it's genuine agony and suffering uh have you ever had that experience where sometimes when you hit total despair about something in your life uh actually you're only a little way away from that being solved you know but when you fight look it's impossible I have knocked myself out I cannot get there from here you know so I think it was the embodiment of that state he was on the on the verge of this total unity uh um and yet he feels completely separate the other factor that I think a lot of people don't realize about that is that he was just quoting Psalm 22. that whole thing is Psalm 22 so he's actually up there on the cross quoting scripture you know that's what he's doing he's not just sort of speaking in his own voice but he's quoting scripture Psalm 22 is all about despair it sort of goes into the psychology of the crucifixion from the inside and so it's sort of got this hip uh you know I don't know I I shouldn't you know I don't know it was a very intense moment in human history but I love the fact that he's he's still all about the Bible he's still about you know well the and there's it's Swedenborg says that the spiritual world the afterlife is actually instead of space you have states of mind there um and if Jesus is in that state you know that that despair that we come to um and he's doing god the god work in there then when we're in that state we can be benefiting from what he did so there's some kind of connection there and I do see what you're saying about this like oh the despair and then something good happens um we have a a very talented animator named matt who does graphics for these shows and back when we were making videos I remember if I saw him like oh I don't know what to do next I'd be like we're about to get something exciting yeah we would go through that cycle um so okay I think we have like two more we're gonna get to um yeah okay this is mark on YouTube if Jesus wasn't crucified would he have grown old and died of natural causes wow you know yeah and does he ever think back like man you know I could have really cashed in on my my followership retired well um so well that gets into sort of like what what is really possible and what isn't possible because everything's according to order so it wasn't like Jesus would have just automatically died if there hadn't been some kind of reason for the body to die you know but at the same time you know there's a pretty definite plan of what's going to go down so it's all hypothetical but I would think if it wasn't that there'd be some other god would be figuring out some other way to accomplish the mission which which it doesn't seem like god is above rethinking things if humans won't participate because these different churches that have popped up over time was as Swedenborg describes god saying okay we're going to connect this way that's getting corrupt and okay we're going to connect this way you know so yeah those are my thoughts yeah that's good and you know in a certain way um aging is a kind of a slow torment you know I mean there is a kind of crucifixion aspect to it yeah so although it's a very theoretical question uh I imagine he would have yes grown old and died of natural causes but would have had that same transformation uh through some other you know something that would have done that transformation and that's that's um a reason why people go through so much at the end of life often you know very difficult experiences and they experience despair and so on and I think it's a comfort to some people to think about what Jesus went through when they're suffering like that like oh this is this is someone who understands what I'm going through empathy then can god even gain empathy yeah to some extent that's right I don't know yeah it's so different than a than sort of this perfect shining god on a mountain somewhere or something you know somebody who's been in the dirt who's been where you are yeah been through what you're going through that's very powerful to me and the god would have you know I would imagine god is feeling everything we feel and going through everything with us you know if we're hurt and god is hurting however I think it's probably different to to be god not knowing that you're god at times and going through something just like we do so there's it's probably a whole other thing there's a lot that's mind-boggling in this stuff yeah man yeah and and I'm sure we're boggling it up even more than it is to be bothered all right I think we have one more oh yeah okay this is from zen seoul again on YouTube I think Jesus wisdom love came here as an earthly being to show us what we are or can become he said I am him as he is in me what do you guys think my own I don't know how to put it into word my own view is that uh because he had full divinity within himself in a way that we don't we have a finite soul uh there's all sorts of things about us that are kind of unlimited but we're not you know we're not omnipresent we're not omniscient we're not omnipotent that can only be one being I think there's endless room for growth and I think we do grow and grow and grow and grow in our lives and all through our lives we're growing and developing and that continues after we die yeah I believe and um and so I do think he was showing us look yes you can do this you can be transformed I don't think we'll get exactly what he got I don't think our bodies will disappear from the

earth plane or something, you know, the way that it is, right? Uh, but I think that level of transformation is there if we want it. And he kind of shows with his life, it's a tough path, you know, it can they can be involved some pain. That being willing to go through that level of transformation has some suffering that comes with it. Yeah, but a great, great, uh, outcome. And so I do think that's part of he was modeling a way of being. And you notice, does he ever complain? He never complains. Don't bring that up because I complain all the time. So, yeah, I'm gonna have something. So I'm still finite in that respect. Yeah.

Um, well, so I think about it like the North Star. You can get direct, you know, your direction from it. You're never going to get. Swedenborg says, you know, angels, people who have progressed in the afterlife are continually being perfected. So we, we can always be approaching. Yes, but but that's our nature. But we just, but there's always more to more to go. And there's, uh, almost infinite variety in the human race. So different people are going in different ways and becoming different things. So I think it's a reflection of this infinity that's there. Yeah. Right. Very cool. Not like we're all going to pick up the same mannerisms as him. But no, but we, we continue to let what is love and wisdom, what does that core, the heart of Jesus look like through these different people. And the link of one individual with the Lord, or whatever we want to call him, yeah, is different than another person, right? With and and so it's very exciting to think of all those, you know, I think the Lord is excited about that project of so many different people to unite with and create something new that's never existed before. And that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for your questions and comments. If you're watching this after the fact, just write down and we'll try to get to you then. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and wrap up with our correspondences segment.

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Okay, so this is where we try to do sort of a meditative type exercise where instead of talking and thinking, we're going to be observing and feeling. And I mentioned, I gave it away that we're, so we're doing correspondences as a segment. So I can put that graphic up. We're going to talk about glass today. And the correspondence is, it's just this idea that everything we, we see or feel or interact with means something deeper. Like this is glass. This is used to have water. It's something we all know. We all know its quality to a certain, you know, this is going to shatter. Um, you can melt. We know that. But it's showing us something about something deeper. And today, we want to look at glass and what, what is it, what is it physically showing us spiritually? Um, uh, so Swedenborg, this talks about glass in a few different ways. But he talks about it's the, the clearness of it, its transparency is like we're like a human mind that's letting light through. You know, the light is in and that's right, heat are coming from God. And if the more we get our negative stuff out of the way, the more that shines out. You know, you probably felt that from somebody to be like, oh, this person, this is love coming right to me. That's right. And you can feel when you're doing something like this is flowing through me. And so that we're make the more we make our mind like glass, the more it can come through. So those are my initial thoughts. Do you have anything? Oh, just that's that's really great. Yeah. And when you, when you think about what we were talking about about what Jesus did when he's transfigured on top of the mountain, he's even his clothes are shining. Yeah, his face is shining. Just this, he's just like broadcasting light. And that's exciting to think about with us too, because we can, we can aspire to that, get rid of impurities and so on and be able to radiate that light. So with those thoughts in mind, we're just going to look at like half a minute of images of glass in different forms and just be, be keeping that in mind, looking at the physical thing and just see what kind of feelings or insights you get. And we'll be back to talk.

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I don't know if Swedenborg ever mentions stained glass, but it's interesting there that you see these different tiles who are, are very different, but yet together they create this. In fact, if you've ever been in a cathedral or something like that, you know, you have them all together and the light shining through all the different colors at once makes this like, wow, that's cool. So that's something about like you were describing before with, uh, all these different people receiving God in a different way and through that, you get this higher impact. So everybody, thanks for hanging out. Um, thank you guys so much for tuning in. If you want to support this program and help it spread, help people find it, you could consider making a small tax deductible donation to the Swedenborg Foundation. Just open up the description of this video and there will be a link in there so that you can contribute. Thanks very much for considering it. Dr. Jonathan Rose, always a pleasure to have you on the show and really glad to have you on for, for this subject because I knew you'd have wonderful things to say and you did. I appreciate it very much and we hope you can come back soon. Thanks, Curtis. All right, everybody, we'll be back, uh, next week. So we'll see you then.