Transcription
I would never recommend someone going below 100 grams of protein a day just as a blanket statement. The average woman is eating below that. The average man is also eating below that.
>> Really?
>> Also, there's a lot of myths surrounding training right now.
>> Oh, well, give them to me.
>> That women have to lift heavy. You don't.
Dr. Gabrielle Lion is a powerhouse physician and creator of muscle centric medicine, challenging outdated beliefs about aging and revealing a path to long life strength. Everyone's looking for the fountain of youth. I got it.
>> Why is it the fountain of youth?
>> Because it anchors your metabolism, your metabolic health, your physical health, and your mental health, and your brain health. A lot of women do not relate to going to the weight room. They feel embarrassed. They feel like, "I've never done it. I'm going to look foolish. I don't want to go. I don't know how to start." You do not have to start in the weight room, but you have to understand that starting anything new feels uncomfortable.
>> Let's talk about supplements so we can drill it down. And if somebody says like, "Look, I don't want to do 15 supplements a day. I don't want to spend the money. I don't even know what I want."
>> I typically don't talk about supplements, but here are the supplements that I recommend.
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Hey, welcome back to the Tamson Show. So, if you clicked on this episode, it's probably because you're so tired of all the advice being thrown at you. Eat more protein. How much is enough? Get stronger. But how do you actually do it? Right? One day it's a new workout, the next day it's a new trend. And it's impossible to tell what's real and what's just noise. That's why I am so excited you're with me today because I'm talking to the top expert on muscle protein and longevity, Dr. Gabrielle Lion. She is giving us the real science and turning it into steps that we can actually follow. Look at this. This is her new book. I got my hands on it. It's amazing. It's the Forever Strong playbook. It's a playbook. So, you're not just reading text. It's the first of its kind. I have I've never seen a book like this before. I am so excited for you to also get your hands on it because in it she is giving us a blueprint to know what to eat, how to train, and how to feel strong again. No matter what stage you are at, Gabrielle, I am so excited you're here.
>> It's great to see you again.
>> I follow you. I we've we've met each other several times now. I consider you a friend and I've been wanting to have you on the podcast forever because I really am such a a fan of your work. I loved your first book, but the fact that you have a playbook now, why did you decide to do a playbook like this?
>> I've been thinking a lot about what inspires people to action.
>> Mhm.
>> And people don't act when they're interested, but real action definitely comes from a combination of inspiration and education. And the goal of the playbook is to give people a field manual of exactly what to eat, how to move, how to think, how to recover, how to create a life that really ultimately works for them. And the ultimate goal is together we can make everybody stronger.
>> When I first saw it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to bring this with me to the kitchen. It's going to go to the gym. It's gonna I I mean it's going to go by the bedside. Like I actually think this is going to be something that people carry with them. Like a lot of times we read a book, we put it down, we have the audio, but this is something that's going to be a living and breathing I really believe part of of your life. I'm really grateful and that that actually is the goal of the book. I spent a lot of time myself and my team thinking about the visuals that go into this book. Again, this is a thicker paper book. It has photos. It has visuals so people can embrace really the content and to do it in a different way. We've all written or not written but we've all read textbook type stuff and for some people that's great but for other people show me a great visual on what to eat, how to move. I they even copied my tattoos which is so cool.
>> I love that.
>> And even how to think you know there's a lot of noise out there and and one of my core fundamental beliefs is discernment.
>> Yeah. You you've taught me that. You've taught me that through conversations we've had and I'm I'm always I'm grateful for it because not a lot of people are have those conversations. I mean, those are layers deep, you know, and I think it's so important. I want to ask you to start by speaking to my listeners because you said it yourself. We're all kind of overwhelmed, right? There's a lot of noise. There's a lot going on right now. What do you want the woman to know that is hearing all this and saying like, "Oh my gosh, every day I wake up and there's something new and I am so confused."
>> It's not their fault. As humans, we're designed to chase novelty. And you know, as I was thinking about coming to this podcast, think about the 1920s. There was the um lucky diet. Do you remember what that is? That was, and I don't know if that was exactly the 1920s. Right before then, there was the wine and egg diet. Have you heard that?
>> I didn't even know about the wine. I mean, it was egg and wine three times a day.
>> Are you kidding me?
>> No. No.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> In fact, I might know people that still do that.
>> We as women have been chasing novelty forever.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> There is a real opportunity now to double down on true innovation. We are at a space that we have scientific knowledge that we don't need to chase novelty anymore. We have to double down on innovation. And what does that mean? Number one, it's not your fault. You are a human being and you are chasing novelty. What's that joke? Squirrel. Squirrel. You know, like with the dog.
>> Yeah.
>> We know that muscle is the organ of longevity. Nothing is more important for a woman than skeletal muscle as she ages. That's it. There are very clear ways in which she can build and maintain it. And that is fundamental science. When we reframe the way that a woman thinks about nutrition and her body and training, then she'll be less distracted and more discerning of all the information coming in.
>> You know, it's funny. When I first heard you say muscle longevity, I was it stopped me in my tracks. Can you explain what that is and what it means?
>> Yeah. You know, muscle is always thought about in the brophere.
>> Yeah. Like this.
>> Exactly. Well, your kind of job. Oh my gosh. To hear you say that to me makes me very happy. But for the longest time, skeletal muscle has always been in the brophere. It's been about being jacked and tan and maybe wearing a skinny tank. And you walk into a gym here and I mean, maybe now it's changing, but women are on the cardio machines.
>> Yep. Always. Always.
>> And the guys have no trouble being in the weight room, lifting weights, throwing weights around, grunting. Yep. Right.
>> May or may not use deodorant. Absolutely.
>> May or may not. When a woman sees her 40 pound toddler and she goes to pick up her toddler, she doesn't think twice.
>> When a woman walks into that weight room and sees that 40 lb kettle bell, she may or may not pick it up. We
>> Why is that? Why are we Why is that? What's the difference there?
>> We have to reframe what we believe our physical bodies are capable of doing. The days of salad and leotards are over.
>> I haven't heard that word in such a long time. They're over.
>> Do you think it's that we we were always told like, "Oh, you don't want to lift weights because you're going to bulk up."
>> Absolutely. And you said something um and I just want to pause on it because I think it's really important.
>> There is a culture of the women are eating salad and doing their cardio and the guys are lifting weights.
>> My mission is not about protein and it's not about muscle. It's about a cultural shift of creating stronger, more resilient people.
>> And that's what this is really about. It's cloaked in protein and muscle and medicine. Great. But at the end of the day, we have a real opportunity for a true cultural shift for women and people to come into what they believe their power is. And we we are absolutely there.
>> What is the first step that you want somebody to take? Because you know I it even when I was I was thinking about it and I was like you know there's a lot of women that that tell me even now like I've never lifted a weight before. So if you've got if we have somebody else you're right it's not true.
>> Do you have toddlers? Do you lift your suitcase?
>> You're right.
>> Are you are you lifting your groceries?
>> The gym concept of it or the traditional weight concept. But you're right. They're lifting.
>> Okay. We'll start with the top two reasons why a woman is going to have reservations of this conversation.
>> Number one, if I lift weights, I'm going to look bulky. And number two, I'm too old to start and I've never lifted weights.
>> Number one, um I'm still trying to get bulky. I've been lifting for 30 years.
>> It's not going to happen.
>> Nope.
>> It is so difficult to put on muscle that that that's just false.
>> Yeah.
>> And to address the second reason why women are very resistant is because they've never done it. That is absolutely not true. You have lifted weights your entire life. Let's double down. Let's get that structured and let's get in there and just lift it a little differently.
>> How do you get them from there regular life of lifting to now say, "Okay, I'm going to do it a little bit differently."
>> We're going to layer in a couple of mindset tricks because listen, I could provide the best diet and exercise plan, but if you can't connect the dots, it's not going to happen. Okay.
>> Okay. So, um, again, and then we're going to jump into the science. The first question you have to ask yourself is, why does it matter for me? I want to be able to age well and be strong and do whatever it is that I want to do. I know that skeletal muscle is important. It's also important from a metabolic perspective. Anyone that has seen a parent or grandparent with Alzheimer's, many of those diseases are type three diabetes of the brain or roots in skeletal muscle. So, I'm going to say this again. We are looking to fix heart disease, which is the number one killer in women, heart disease, Alzheimer's, obesity, diabetes. Those are symptoms in part of unhealthy skeletal muscle. First,
>> we don't think of it like that though.
>> No, we don't.
>> So, if somebody says like, I want to be healthier, I want to age well, when you say the words age, well, you're talking about these areas that we're all so afraid of.
>> Preventing chronic disease.
>> Mhm.
>> That begins in skeletal muscle decades earlier. And hey, let's say you didn't start decades earlier. It's never too late. you can always affect the health of your skeletal muscle. Okay, so you haven't bought in to the fact that maybe you're not driven by Alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or obesity. Okay, you're like, Gabrielle, you know what? I don't care so much about that, right?
>> I would say, well, come on. You should, but let's say you don't.
>> If you want to not require physical assistance, okay, nobody wants to live in a no offense, I don't think so. You want to have independence. You care about independence.
>> Absolutely do.
>> Then you have to start now.
>> What does that allow you to do in the future?
>> Go to the bathroom by yourself.
>> Walk by yourself without a walker. Go to the grocery. Do all of the activities of daily living that allow for independence.
>> If you're not sold by the other ones, you better be sold by that.
>> All right, Now, how about this? Let's take it one step further. Let's just hit it from all domains while we're at it. We should because I I do think that somebody's going to hear it differently. One person doesn't want to be dealing with with you know with being dependent right when they're you know when they're getting older and another person says like listen heart disease runs my family I'm petrified of it right now. So
>> I did geriatrics. I trained in geriatrics. I did my fellowship at WashU and I did a combined clinical fellowship meaning I did nutritional sciences and I did clinical research as well as geriatrics and that is end of life care over the age of 65 memory and aging. Now one of the biggest things that I've heard at the end of life this is heavy is regret. regret for the things that they didn't try, regret for the actions that they didn't take. And personally, I don't want anyone to have those kinds of regrets. And in our society, we see older individuals and end of life as over here. and we kind of ignore that the end is coming for all of us and it's how we live in the middle. So if you want to be strong and powerful, the lever that you pull is not first the mental lever.
>> Okay, what do I mean by that? In order to build resilience, it's much easier to pull the physical lever. And that's muscle. You leverage skeletal muscle to build physical resilience that translates over to mental resilience. And ultimately there is a birectional relationship between the mental and the physical which allows you to chase your goals which allows you to show up as the best wife and sister and mother.
>> And we're doing it the opposite way.
>> And we're doing it the opposite way. We're trying to get it mental mentally right first to get us to the gym to be able to do all these never gonna happen that way. It's never gonna happen that way. I have to ask you something going back to you know you your study of of geriatrics. Is that what it's called? So study of geriatrics you you were young doing that right? Was that was that like the very beginning of your career?
>> I I actually have a long medical I remember hearing it.
>> I did two years of psychiatry.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> And then I did three years of family medicine and then I did two years of geriatrics and nutritional sciences.
>> Did the geriatrics change everything about what you your core belief system of how you live today?
>> Everything. It was probably the most painful medical training experience that I ever have had.
>> Why?
>> Because you face your mortality.
>> You are aware of that constantly.
>> And I'm still aware of it constantly. It took me years to get over that to really, you know, it's interesting because as a physician, you would think that there is just a discrete separation between what you're seeing in your clinic, right, and then what you're experiencing as a human. While I took care of people that were aging, they're, you know, when you're doing paliotative care and there happens to be an 18-year-old girl with cystic fibrosis who's planning the wedding that she's never going to be able to be at. It changes you.
>> Of course, I I can't imagine
>> our mutual friend Teresa Deasquali and that is actually the reason I'm sitting in this chair. I had finished that training and gone to work in private practice here. actually on Fifth Avenue. I had opened or taken over a private practice and I was not on social media at all. And I started seeing all of this misinformation come out about how red meat caused cancer and how the way to do it was to, you know, be on a vegan plant-based diet. And I had just finished two years of sitting at the bedside of dying patients. I felt a responsibility to do something about it, to say something about it. And that is actually what pushed me to even get on social media and to speak.
>> Were you a vegetarian or vegan ever? Did you tell me that?
>> Did you know that? Yeah, I think you told me that. We spoke at a panel together a few months ago in New York City and I
>> Where were we? We were at a steakhouse.
>> We were at a steakhouse and um I remember
>> that was a great time. Shout out to Par. It was so fun.
>> It was It was a great time. Oprah Daly put this together and um yeah, Par was just incredible how she hosted that panel and I I remember you saying that and I went, "What? I've got to I've got to find out about this. I felt like there's layers of you." So, you know, and that brings us kind of to the next place and I I don't want to go off this because I do want to say one thing. You know, I lo I my mother got sick with breast cancer and and most listeners know this when I was 14 and I watched her through the years, you know, get a little bit better, get a little bit worse, have a reoccurrence. And she died the day after Christmas when I was 20 years old. And so that mortality I really under like I I looked in the face for a very long time. I didn't do with it obviously what what you did, but I think it's always given me a clear clear awareness that it's all temporary, right? and that you better do exactly what you want to do now. And I don't mean in a frivolous way, but I mean in a a healthy take care of yourself way because you just don't know. Um, well, thank you for sharing that because I think that that was that's a really important part of your past and I think that um I I wanted people to know I know that because you have a lot of it.
>> It makes me really missiondriven.
>> Yeah. Because because of seeing that I do believe that we have the opportunity to shift to a very culturally strong and robust entity as humans collectively really this is not about and I have an ethos in the book a forever strong ethos that aging is inevitable but weakness is a choice and so is strength and it can start at any age. And we have data to support that you can build muscle and change your metabolic outcome. And by metabolic outcome, I mean insulin, glucose, triglycerides, all of these markers of metabolic syndrome, we can change it at any age.
>> All the ones that we go into a doctor's office in midlife often all of a sudden say, "I never had high cholesterol. What's what's going on with me? I have no idea. Where did all this come from?" So all of that can be can be traced back to exactly what we're talking about when it comes to being strong. There are hormone changes, right, that also can affect lipid profiles. But one thing is for sure, you have to have healthy skeletal muscle to deal with these things. I mean, it really is at the focal point.
>> Skeletal muscle. Muscle is the organ of longevity. And you asked me, was I vegan and vegetarian? I was.
>> Yeah. I want to talk about that because I think that, you know, protein is such a big conversation right now. So, you were vegan, vegetarian for years.
>> And what happened? Well, I spent my entire 20s focused on how I could improve my nutrition. I trained in nutritional sciences as an undergraduate, but I was obsessed with nutritional sciences. I was eating with the seasons. I was, you know, I was like, was it under the moonlight? And and I'm a very evidence-based person, which is hysterical. I may or may not like an essential oil occasionally, but and I wasted so much time and spent so much of my brain power trying to construct a diet that supported me and I was training pretty heavily.
>> How are you doing that? How are you training heavily like that? And
>> and vegan vegan or vegetarian um probably like a lot of young women became a manoric. I was overtraining. Again, there is more education surrounding how to take a vegetarian and vegan diet and improve it. And listen, I'm all for it if that's what you want to do.
>> The majority of people by the time they're hitting midlife, you do not see as many vegan or vegetarians. It's typically, if you were to look at the data, it's typically younger women that are really interested and following this game plan.
>> My hair fell out. I became anemic. My teeth got loose. I just was not able to support my body in training.
>> Every relook right now, every article that comes out, every every time you flip through social, eat more protein all the time, which by the way, I'm a little grateful for because I started talking about this.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh I started studying this 20 years ago.
>> So, tell me what to do to get enough protein where we feel like we're not tearing our bodies apart, right?
>> I love it. Let's talk about what the data shows and how much protein women on average are eating.
>> Okay.
>> That number is between 60 and 70 g. 60 to 70 gram of protein. What does that mean from a visual perspective? You and I went to a steakhouse. It was so much fun.
>> Let's say you have a 5o steak, for example.
>> We'll say if it's a lean steak, there's about eight grams of protein per ounce.
>> Okay, so about 40.
>> That's right.
>> Right. 5 oz steak is about 40 grams.
>> Okay.
>> A that's one thing.
>> That's a I don't know. Let's say you're going to have more than 5 ounces. Maybe it's an 8 oz steak. You've pretty much hit the amount of protein that women are eating.
>> Okay. In a day.
>> In a day, right?
>> That's not that much.
>> Now, when we think about what the body needs, and again, that was just the visual 60 to 70.
>> No, I think it's important because I think, you know, we hear calories, we hear counting calories. So confusing nobody's counting calories.
>> If you have a protein shake, that's about 20. But on average, according to the NHANES data set, which is the largest data set that we have, women are eating between 60 and 70 grams of protein. You will hear that we are eating too much protein. Well, I mean, I don't know. Have you heard that?
>> I don't know. No, I I mean, I feel like I came from the I came from the calories, fat, sugar, you know, I didn't come from protein. So protein was all new to me in the last few years. It really was. And now I'm like, am I supposed to be eating more? Am I eating less? I don't know what to do.
>> Well, listen, by the end of this podcast show, you're going to know exactly.
>> I love it. And this book is going up in the kitchen with you.
>> What was so cool about this book is we I um co-wrote this chapter with Don Layman, who is actually one of the world leading experts in protein metabolism.
>> Oh, that's great.
>> And there's only four I mean, if you look at who the best of the best is, there's probably only four guys. And Okay. Wonderful.
>> He's my mentor of of 20 years. and he really crafted this nutrition section and it's not based on calories because women we're not we're not listen we're busy but it is visually what does it look like when you think about protein I told you how much the average woman is eating before we get to how to do it let's talk about why you need dietary protein people believe that we need protein for muscle this is true the other more important reason we need protein, especially as we age, is because of protein turnover.
>> What is that?
>> Your body is going to turn over itself, renew and repair probably four times a year.
>> All of it.
>> All right.
>> Uh wish it would do a little bit better with the Botox, but I'm okay. I'm okay. Four times a year, your body is going to regenerate itself. Your body will repair and replace around 250 grams of protein a day.
>> Oh wow. Okay. So we need more
>> from your enzymes to liver to any structure in your body. It is constantly going through repair and replace this.
>> What happens if you don't have it in there?
>> Great question. If we are not getting enough protein to support this protein turnover and the aging process, it begins to prioritize pulling from tissues like muscle.
>> Mhm.
>> To protect your liver and your heart and other organ systems because your organs are the priority. And then secondarily, skeletal muscle is this amino acid reservoir which is really what protein is built on. It's these various amino acids. So that is a lot of science and a lot of numbers. We eat primarily to maintain the structures of the body and it is a very dynamic process.
>> Now I'm going to throw in another a wrench into this just to to clear this up. If we were to take a step back and we frame up the conversation, how much is too much? What is a high protein diet?
>> Yeah.
>> And how can we think about the landscape? Mhm.
>> The current protein recommendations are based on something called the RDA, recommended dietary allowance.
>> That number is set at the minimum to prevent a protein deficiency.
>> Okay?
>> The the bare minimum.
>> The bare minimum.
>> And that is set at 37 g per pound.
>> All right?
>> If someone was 115 pounds, maybe one of your producers can do the math. If someone was 115 lbs times.37, that's what 45 grams of protein.
>> All right, that's bare minimum.
>> That's the minimum to prevent a deficiency.
>> That is not going to support optimal aging, support menopausal. I don't want to say menopausal muscle because actually muscle is the same whether you're in menopause or not, right? but really to support what we want to look like and how we want to maintain our metabolism, how we want to maintain our mobility and strength, and how we want to be able to pull the lever of mentality to become more resilient.
>> I would never recommend someone going below 100 grams of protein a day just as a blanket statement.
>> As a woman, man, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Just 100 grams should be your baseline.
>> Just have a number in your head and that better. That should be it. The average woman is eating below that.
>> Okay.
>> The average man is also eating below that, by the way.
>> Really?
>> Yeah. They're eating between the last data point I looked at. I think that they're eating between 80 and 90 grams.
>> I can believe that if I think about my husband's diet, I can I can think about that because he's not focused on that. He's just eating.
>> It's Yeah, it's the most important macronutrient.
>> What is the best protein for your buck? Like, if you're going to say, I'm going to sit down and have protein. Is it a protein shake? Is it protein powder? Is it the steak that you talked about? Is it meat? is a fish. What does that look like?
>> A couple ways to answer this. We know that we want to have a minimum of 100 grams. But if I wanted to optimize for body composition, and let's say I wanted to have you lower your body fat percentage and maintain skeletal muscle, then I am going to think about protein on the higher end. And that's going to be around 1.2 gram per kg or.7 to 1 g per pound of target body weight.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay? cuz I want to I want to pause there because people are uh really conditioned to believe that that is a lot.
>> Yes, they are. Yeah.
>> Let's say you're 150 lb woman and your target weight after menopause is 130 lbs.
>> Your protein target is around 130.
>> I mean it I'm a pescatarian. I told you that. And it's tough. It's really hard for me to get that amount of protein and I think about it all the time. So what do you do?
>> We focus on the first and the last meal. Dietary protein.
>> Okay.
>> And as a pescatarian, the first and the last meal are your most important meals.
>> All right?
>> They are going to help protect muscle, help with your metabolism. It the data also shows that if you're hitting roughly 30 grams or even a little bit higher, you are less likely to go to have your cupcake or your treat. So it augments willpower. It's pretty extraordinary. For me, a protein shake is an easy way.
>> Okay.
>> There are high quality and there are low quality proteins.
>> Yeah, let's talk about that because I I feel like there are so many protein powders out there right now. What should you be looking for on a label? So, you say I can put say no to those and this is the area I should be living in.
>> We'll start with the protein powders and then we'll move to the whole foods.
>> Okay.
>> The protein powders are really based on the amino acid profile and the amino acids are the building blocks of these proteins. There are various amino acids that make up a steak in a certain amount and there are different amino acid profiles for say something like tempeh or soy or tofu.
>> It is really the variation of these. But when you look at the back of a label, it just says protein, right?
>> But there are 21 different, you know,
>> is that when you hear the word complete protein versus incomplete protein, is that the Okay.
>> There are nine essential amino acids.
>> Okay. And those essential amino acids make something a complete protein for protein shakes nowadays. I'm I'm about to spoil this for you.
>> Oh no.
>> That's okay.
>> Again, it's to lay the foundation. It's really based on these amino acids, right?
>> Collagen,
>> y
>> has a protein score of zero.
>> Oh my gosh.
>> I told you. I told you. I just going to lay it on thick right off the bat. Does
>> that mean it has a protein?
>> It does not count towards your total protein.
>> Why? because it is missing the some of the essential amino acids.
>> So it's an incomplete protein.
>> It's an incomplete protein. Incomplete. So it doesn't count towards your 100.
>> It does not.
>> So it counts towards your face.
>> Counts towards zero. Yes. Your skin.
>> So you could have listen or you could put cream on. I fight with my um one of my really good friends.
>> Uh him and I fight about it. He's like, "Yel, it's not evidence-based. Collagen is not improving your skin." I'm like, "Oh, yes it is. Just look. It's it's improving it. I don't want to hear about your
>> So we want it for skin. All right.
>> skin, hair, nails. Again, it's very difficult to test collagen. For example, there's some data coming out for tendons, but you're not going to biopsy someone's Achilles heel.
>> No. No. You're not worried about that until something happens to it. Right.
>> Exactly.
>> Collagen has a protein score of zero. I don't count that towards my protein score. I love a whey protein.
>> Whey protein.
>> Whey protein is fantastic. You can also get if you don't like whey or you cannot tolerate whey, there are animal-based proteins that have um you know all sorts of organs and all these different kinds of things. But again, what we're focused on is the amino acid profile, the complete protein.
>> If you wanted a rice pea blend, that's okay, too, because
>> that's a plant-based.
>> It's a plant-based protein, that's okay. What I will say is that over the long term, these proteins are isolated from plants. And it's not just protein. There are other compounds, other likely bioactive ingredients that we just don't know.
>> All right?
>> For me, if you were to ask me what I use, I love a whey protein. You can also use an amino acid blend.
>> If we hear those two words, see those two words on a label, that's where we should be living. And you want to see two and a half grams of leucine if you want to get really specific.
>> No, I think we should
>> two and a half grams of leucine really on that label. But you want all the amino acids. There should be an entire profile of amino acids. If you were to look at collagen, you'll see it's low in the branch chains which are the essential amino acids which are necessary for muscle and everything else and very low if not devoid in tryptophan. We start there in the in the morning or where morning or afternoon and then where do we go beyond that?
>> Now we're going to talk a little bit about food. And this is a hot topic which is shocking. Do you just know it is still I know it is extremely controversial.
>> I know it is. It is. Listen, we grew up for years with like magazine covers that said everything in the world. Right now we have articles constantly. Now we have Substacks, social, we have every So there's so much information. I feel like you know you go I'll just have the cupcake. like I don't know what to do, you know? So, we want to we want to get there.
>> And 98% of of individuals are over consuming highly processed foods.
>> Well, I mean,
>> carbohydrates, highly processed foods.
>> The more protein you consume, the less specific you have to be about the timing and the dosing per meal, fasting and all that, all that stuff.
>> How we are going to really get through the noise is we decide that we're going to get a 100 grams of protein. We understand what it looks like from a fish, chicken, beef perspective.
>> Five ounces or potentially more.
>> Now, to layer on a little bit, I like to have between 30 and 50 grams of protein per meal.
>> Okay?
>> And it can just be two meals. Now, you've hit 100.
>> All right?
>> Your first meal is your what I would consider your most important because you're coming out of an overnight fast.
>> Mhm.
>> You have an opportunity to stimulate muscle with protein.
>> All right.
>> Your lunch I don't really care about as long as you're having some kind of protein and balanced meal, not carbs by themselves.
>> And dinner. There's an argument for dinner, which is, you know, I suggest a higher protein dinner before you go into again your overnight fast. We have to protect muscle and especially as women age. The kind of protein again there's plant protein and there's animal protein. They are not equal my friend.
>> Where's fish? Is fish
>> is an animal based protein?
>> Animal based. Okay. All right.
>> Which is a great source of protein.
>> So if you're saying salmon versus steak, you feel okay with that.
>> What? Both are wonderful. I love that.
>> As women age, their appetite goes down.
>> Mhm.
>> Which is why everything that you put into your mouth food related matters.
>> I had an 75-year-old woman who came to see me speak and she said, "Gabrielle, um, I'm really confused. I keep hearing that as I age, I need to go more plant-based." And I said, "I couldn't think of a worse recommendation for you." I said, "How much do you eat?" She's like, "I might eat one meal a day."
>> And I said, "Well, do you take a multivitamin?" She said, "No, I have trouble swallowing the multi." I don't want her to choose something that is not nutrient-dense. I love the idea that she would eat a lean steak or have salmon or have fish, chicken over a slice of tempe or tofu.
>> You've got B12, zinc, iron, all these bioavailable nutrients. Again, it does. There's protein and then it is the quality of the food, right?
>> Um, that being said, you can get protein from soy and you can get protein from beansish.
>> Yeah.
>> But that comes with a ton of carbohydrates.
>> Well, you know, I was trying to get more protein and I started eating grains and lentils and beans.
>> Was quinoa on the list?
>> and quinoa was on the list.
>> Two cups of quinoa to equal one small chicken breast.
>> Yeah. And then all of a sudden my my blood sugar changed and every you know and I went how how could this be happening like sweet potatoes and quinoa lumped on top of it on top of lentil. So you know I did myself a disservice and and we realized it through my blood work and that's why we have to really clarify what and how women want to age.
>> Yeah.
>> Prioritize protein first and actually even on the plate. I mean fiber is also very important but fiber is not going to again but fiber is matters the same. fiber is in a underneath, right? You would say that um what about creatine? What what do you
>> wonderful? And I think we're going to see more and more data creatine for women right now. I have seen some convincing data individuals and let's say older, you know, I cringe. 60 isn't old, but
>> I got it. All right.
>> 60 and above creatine is wonderful.
>> When you come back on, I'll be like, I need you to say 70 when I turn, you know, I got six more years and I just keep blowing up the number. creatine for muscle but for muscle not in replacement actually and brain it would take is very difficult to eat enough creatine you couldn't it would be impos it it would be nearly impossible to get creatine from your foods in the doses that you're looking I think it's one gram of creatine per pound don't quote me on that of of beef like it's just very difficult
>> so where do you get your creatine that's got to supplement
>> I I actually supplement creatine the data is five grams roughly 3 to five grams for muscle and 10 and above for brain function, cognitive function.
>> Is there one food plan that you really recommend?
>> I do. It's called the Lion Protocol.
>> What's a Lion Protocol?
>> The Lion Protocol, a protein forward diet, is not my diet. It is a diet based on scientific evidence.
>> Mhm.
>> There is 40 years of data on dietary protein and how it affects the human body. With that being said, there's something called the protein leverage hypothesis. Have you heard of this?
>> No, I don't know what that is.
>> The protein leverage hypothesis is that humans or mammals, certain mammals, will feed to get roughly a 20% protein intake. And you're thinking, okay, well now what what is she talking about? What does this mean? This means that if we are eating a diet that is high in carbohydrates, we will continue to eat to get those amino acids that there is a biological drive for dietary protein.
>> Until we get those, we're not
>> exactly
>> satiated.
>> Exactly. While we are over here chasing novelty squirrel.
>> Yeah.
>> The human biology has its own agenda.
>> And what's it called again? It is. It's a hypothesis. It's the protein leverage hypothesis.
>> Oh, fascinating.
>> Humans will be driven to eat roughly 20% of their diet from protein. My point of saying this is we should streamline our biology and our physiological drive by feeding it what it needs rather than us trying to figure out and be chasing the next best thing or wondering why we're still hungry.
>> Creatine. I want to go back to that for one second. What does that do to your body? We know what protein does. What does creatine do to your body?
>> Creatine is really used for energy.
>> All right. Power um you know energy recovery in training.
>> Okay.
>> So we're telling we're telling women you want to lift you.
>> Yeah. It seems that it can improve the performance. All right.
>> Depending on what kind of activity people are doing, you have to start with a good foundational diet. People can use high quality animal-based proteins. They can also use fish or chicken.
>> Some kind of shake to help. Dairy protein also works.
>> Yogurt. Okay. Also great. Super happy with that.
>> I remember when dairy was like person, you know, no dairy.
>> Crazy. I actually on my podcast I had the only person that has studied Do you know there's something called ovarian waves? There's there's this Have you heard of that? No. M
>> ovaries go through this cycle and she's the only person in the world that has studied the menopause transition of the ovaries.
>> Oh wow. No.
>> Yeah. Her name is Heidi Benbrink. Just random.
>> All right.
>> And um when we're talking about coming back to the foundation, it's it's really about setting up a diet that supports all of these transitions.
>> All right, let's talk about supplements so we can drill it down. If somebody says like, "Look, I don't want to do 15 supplements a day. I don't want to spend the money. I don't even know what I want. I don't even know what any of it means. What? Drill it down. Like just what can somebody do?
>> Supplementation. Here's how I think about it. What are your needs and what are you missing?
>> Okay.
>> Omega-3 fatty acids. There is great data. If someone is has menstrual cramps, by the way, there's data. Did you know that? That is coming out that omega-3 fatty acids can help with menstrual cramps. Yeah, I just heard this myself, too.
>> That's brain health, also inflammation. And I don't know the mechanism, but it seems as if there that omega-3 fatty acids do something uniquely for women.
>> Again, I I don't know where we are in uh definitive science language yet, but if you are male or female, I think omega-3 fatty acids,
>> all right,
>> killer. Um, I will say vitamin D depending and there that's actually controversial whether you should supplement vitamin D.
>> I didn't know that that was controversial.
>> It is. It is. I I'm not sure yet.
>> But that's for bone.
>> This is um for Yes. So calcium vitamin D K2.
>> Um, also uralithn.
>> I'm obsessed with uralithn is a postbiotic and the company that I use is mopure. They're extraordinary. Mh.
>> It helps with mitochondria. It helps with aging mitochondria. It helps with strength and energy production. It almost mimics exercise in the mitochondria.
>> Okay.
>> Essential amino acids. If you are not eating a higher protein diet,
>> right?
>> Some kind of whey protein essential amino acid shake.
>> Um,
>> that's the protein shake you're talking about.
>> Yeah. And for brain function, I love a beta
hydroxybutyrate. "Say it again." "Beta hydroxy ketones." "Ketones. Okay. ketones."
"I want them to be able to think about, okay, you told me I need 100 grams of protein. I want to have 30 to 50 grams at the first meal, 30 to 50 grams at the last meal."
"What about the rest of my nutrition plan?" "You have to earn carbohydrates through exercise. A lot of the problems that we are seeing in women's blood work is a mismatch of their muscle health with their diet."
"All right. What does that mean?" "They have skeletal muscle that looks like a wagoo beef steak." "M." "It's marbled." "Okay."
"Carbohydrates. You have to match carbohydrates with your physical activity and the health of skeletal muscle. Meaning, let's say you have a baseline carbohydrate intake of around 100 grams."
"Anything above that you earn through exercise." "What you're going to burn off with exercise." "You're just going to move, right? Because carbohydrates, we think about it as giving us energy for movement and exercise. On days that women don't train, if you're not going to the gym, you don't need extra carbohydrates."
"So, what are your carbohydrates in a day?" "Everything else out of my 100 grams, I have 100 grams at baseline for carbohydrates. And I typically do a 1:1 ratio of protein to carbs."
"Okay. All right." "And I might have berries, I might have potato, sweet potato, but it's a 1:1 ratio."
"All right." "Anything outside of that 100 grams I'm earning through exercise. Maybe it's, you know, I do like a 100 push-ups a day just in between whatever we're doing. That's only 10 10 times, by the way."
"And you just do 10. You just drop and do 10." "No, I I'd like to do more. But okay, again."
"All right, I'm gonna hold you to it. I don't know if I'm going be able to keep up with you, but I'm going to try." "But the Well, you know what? We should start a push-up challenge." "I would love that." "We should start I will do that."
"Tams and Cho should start a push-up challenge because people don't believe that they have been lifting weights and don't believe that they have been strong their entire life. And they are. We just have to cultivate that." "I love the fact that you've just told everybody they've been lifting weights their whole life." "Yeah." "Because it's really true. It's really true."
"Why is strength training so important in midlife? Because I I I mean I know what I I as much as I understand. But I think that you know when we're telling women they're already starting to lift, right? Or they've already been lifting all along. But strength training."
"Now we're saying a different way." "Or why don't we just call it um yeah strength training resistance training." "Resistance training." "Resistance training. And this is the human. You know, people will say the biggest disease is they'll say it's heart disease or they'll say it's obesity. You know what I think it is?" "I think it's comfort." "That's true." "I think comfort is what kills more people than anything else."
"Because it's it applies to each one of these areas separately." "Everything." "Yeah." "Everything."
"Therefore, when we choose the path that is harder." "Our life becomes easier." "Mhm." "In everything."
"All of physical activity. I could literally sit in this chair all day and solve all of everything that I could ever need could be delivered to me." "I don't even have to move." "This is a new phenomenon. We were not designed to be as domesticated as we are." "Physically and mentally. It's." "Completely comfort kills." "Screwing it all up. Yeah."
"How do we create more friction in our lives? We're talking about resistance training, but a lot of women do not relate to going to the weight room. They feel embarrassed. They feel like, 'I've never done it. I'm going to look foolish. I don't want to go. I don't know how to start.'"
"You do not have to start in the weight room. But you have to understand that starting anything new feels uncomfortable." "Mhm." "Okay, we're going to embrace that part. This is exciting." "Y." "It's the only way we grow. Yep."
"Structured progressive stimulus, which could be body weight, bands, weights, humans, toddlers. It's all about creating an environment that stimulates your muscle." "Where you feel it, where you actually feel it." "Where you feel it."
"Resistance training. Everyone's looking for the fountain of youth. I got it."
"Explain what resistance training is. Resistance training is typically moving your muscle against force." "That's it. You're training through quote resistance."
"Why is it the fountain of youth?" "Because it anchors your metabolism, your metabolic health, your physical health, and your mental health and your brain health. You name it. When you contract skeletal muscle, it releases myioines that help with neurogenesis and help with mood and build stronger bones. Simply the act of contracting your muscle has a cascade effect throughout the whole body."
"It's funny you always say I feel oh so much better when I go to the gym. There's a real scientific reason for that. Correct." "Yeah." "It's I mean it's actually happening to you. And is it the harder you work out the better you feel mentally longer it lasts?"
"This is not scientific um evidence-based statement." "All right. But yes, try to." "I'll take it because I've felt it before." "Try to have a negative narrative and jump in the cold plunge. Try to have a negative narrative and do push-ups till failure." "Mhm." "You can only focus on the task at hand. And again, it brings us back to discernment. We're pulling the lever of skeletal muscle to move our minds and bodies to a different level."
"How often should women do it? How much do they need?" "Two to three two to three days a week of resistance training." "Two to three days a week. Yeah. Okay. All right. And then uh cardio. Tell me how we add cardio into it."
"And also there's a lot of myths surrounding training right now." "Oh, well give them to me." "That women have to lift heavy. You don't. The data doesn't support that. You have to." "So all right. So let's tell women what they need to do."
"It's really interesting. Are women underststudied? Yes." "Are women different? Yes. Mhm." "Are there a whole host of potential differences within skeletal muscle fibers and everything? Yes. But it might not be that it's a female difference. It's an interpersonal variation." "What does that mean?" "Your muscle fiber is different than mine." "Oh, yeah. Okay. So, it's different from everybody." "It's." "Different. Yeah. Johanna and different than my husband's." "Yeah."
"There are really world-class scientific experts that are saying one thing that are in the lab doing." "Clinical research." "And the majority of them will say that we do need better randomized control trials for women, but that women do not need to train differently than men. They do not need to train heavy. Mhm." "They do not need doesn't matter if they're training fasted or fed." "Okay." "That right now there is a whole host of things that I think over complicate it that the science doesn't support."
"What over complicates it so women can start taking these things off their to-do list." "Well, again, this is what I'm seeing out there. I'm seeing a lot of overt statements that you have to lift heavy." "You have to do X, Y, and Z because you're a woman and that you're not a small man." "It's it's true. You're not. But the scientific literature, it doesn't support these very large statements that are directing training. A good foundation program for resistance training that improves either strength or hypertrophy, whether you are male or female, will work."
"You know, I go to the gym two to three times a week for sure. I've I always like lifted lifting. That's my favorite day. Lifting is my favorite day because I feel like it's it's a shorter amount of time than cardio for me. I just um focus because I can't do anything else. I can listen to music. I can't I can't I'm not watching the person next to me, you know, my arms or I do my legs or I do my squats. How do you take a woman who hasn't done that and says like I I don't know that I want to I don't even have a gym, you know, I'm doing it out of my house. Is that okay? Can you can you lift at home? Are there programs on that you just want somebody to I lifted with a kettle bell? The whole just all of co that's it." "Okay." "I just used one single kettle bell. It's not about progressive quote overload, meaning the weights have to get heavier. It's about how do we stimulate the tissue differently."
"Whether it's increasing reps, whether it's increasing or slowing down tempo, whether it's changing positions, whether it's adding pauses, there are various things that anyone can do, but it really is about how do we create enough stimulus. So in the playbook we have a whole host of um training protocols but there we have one primary training protocol that's really it can be used for a beginner or intermediate. It is a a dumbbell protocol. Someone could go on Amazon and purchase I don't know 5 10 pound dumbbells. There's body weight exercises. It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. And I will tell you this I have always lifted heavy."
"And I get injured. Are there common mistakes that you see women making in the gym that we should warn them about if they're, you know, going in there the first time or or just lifting in general?"
"In the playbook I put together, myself, um, Dr. Dr. Gerard Denafhrio and, um, Dr. Jordan Shallow." "We went through and uh, Dr. Gerard is physical medicine and rehab. He's actually in New York. Um I think he's in Long Island, but he sees a ton of women and there's foundational five prehab exercise." "Mhm." "Whether it's bird dog or you know there's just like a handful of prehab exercises to really get the body ready." "Okay." "And they include isometrics just it's it's easy and straightforward."
"The biggest mistake that I see women doing is you're not going to like this answer." "Try me." "They're not focused. People are on their phone in the gym." "If you can just get in there and you can just dial down on your focus, the outcome is going to be so much better. I'd much rather have you spend 20 minutes doing something intentional than clocking in 60 that was half, you know, halfhazard."
"Do you ever have your phone in there? You never." "All the time. My team is yelling at me all the time. And I was like, you know what? Okay, I want to see you do 50 pull-ups. Let's go." "That I have not conquered yet. That I have not conquered yet." "Yes. But the reality is when it's time to do the work, okay." "Phone goes away." "All right."
"Women should be training two to three days a week, they should have progressive stimulus. If they feel very comfortable doing the same thing, challenge yourself to do something different. There are foundational movements that I believe that are safe that women should do. And you do have to have a baseline assessment. Women, I think it's great if you can do a push-up. If you can't, let's work towards that." "Mhm." "That's really important."
"Why are push-ups so important?" "You could do it anytime. Also, you want to be able to get off the ground." "Push herself off the ground."
"How can a woman tell if she's on the right track and actually starting to build muscle?" "Well, is she getting stronger is the first thing because again, I don't want to have women focus on aesthetics. You could do a DEXA. There's a whole host of problems with DEXA or InBody, but that's what we have access to." "Okay. That's a machine you stand on." "Yeah. We don't actually directly measure skeletal muscle unless it's in CT or MRI." "Oh, wow." "Everything. It's an extrapolation of old lean tissue." "Okay?" "It doesn't show the quality of your muscle either."
"But for simplicity sake, it's either a DEXA or InBody. You can do a home scale, whichever, but just do it consistently. I also recommend having a highintensity interval session in there." "20 minutes." "20 minutes of intense training." "And you could start with a total of 10 minutes of work." "Okay? It is great for metabolism and body composition and it's also great for training your capacity. It'll improve your V2 max over time." "What's V2 max?" "It is the maximum um heart output."
"All right. Cardio, how many days a week?" "I hate this question." "I know. I knew as soon as I said it, you knew you were going to not like that question, but." "I need to do more. Just going to be honest. I I need to do more cardiovascular training." "For overall health and wellness. I want people to start with weights." "Yeah." "And then I want them to do highintensity interval training just one day a week. That can count as cardio." "Okay." "If you feel ready for it, uh you could add in two days a week, but again, this is a lot of layering."
"Rest and recovery. How important is that?" "Way more important than I'd like to admit." "Really?" "My existence. Yes." "Because you you don't like your rest and recovery days, do you?" "I don't. You don't grow when you're training. You don't improve when you're actively doing the action. You improve when your body is in this rest and recovery state."
"So, you work out one day, two days in a row, you need to rest and recover." "I would say people should gauge how they're feeling. And I it's a it's a challenge because do you if if I trained solely based on feeling. I mean some people I don't know they would never train. If I ate fruits and vegetables solely based on feeling I'd probably never do it." "Sure." "And we have to put in really protocols for people to rest and recover. I will say sleep wake times are really important. Circadian entrainment is really important. If I were to pick what I feel is critical from a recovery standpoint, I would love to invite people to go to bed and wake up at the same time. It's just an opportunity really controlling your environment in terms of excess light exposure, light pollution." "Keeping lights down low. Some people will use special glasses or using red light." "And not bright overhead light. It can be very disruptive. I love a good cold plunge. Is this a tool for recovery? Can it be beneficial for soreness or inflammation? Maybe. But I also think that there's a a really good physical challenge. But the sleep is important." "The non-kaotic eating is important."
"So you have a plan, a plan, a plan." "Or you have breakfast at this time, you have lunch at this time, you have dinner at this time." "Mitigating chaos is is." "A positive. I mean, I think that's what you stand for. Anytime I've talked to you, just in, you know, not not just sitting here, but just anytime I've talked to you, I've always felt that a very calm, clear focus. And I'm assuming you carry that throughout your life because there's a discipline that comes with that and a a a calm that comes with that."
"We are a military family." "Yeah." "We are very very disciplined. There are certain people will always say you set goals." "I would say we don't set goals. We set standards. And when you set standards, it becomes very easy to fall in line and be in alignment with what your values are. We are the type of people that get up early and train." "Mhm." "We are the type of people that eat x, y, and z. We do this. We're very discerning." "We don't set physical goals." "We set physical standards. And one of the most important aspects that I have learned and this is this actually is in the book the playbook. But the most successful people that I have ever seen whether they are following a nutrition plan or a diet plan or in life is they're neutral." "What do you mean by neutral?" "They are neutral. They never get too high or too low. Oh, you got a book coming out? Yeah. It's just another Tuesday. Ah, you're covering some breaking news. Mhm. Yeah. Just another Tuesday." "It's my husband. He's neutral. He doesn't go too high or too low." "Those people are killers." "Mhm. Mhm." "They're able to be very discerning and they're able to manage their physiology."
"How do you think you get to that place?" "You practice." "Okay." "You practice. I'm going to give you absolutely a few examples. You got me uh coffee. Thank you so much, Johanna, for this amazing coffee. I did I did that all in a shot right before we started. Incredible. I need another one." "I should have flipped a coin and heads I got that coffee and tails I didn't." "What do you mean?" "Why should I be accustomed to just because I want something should I be able to get it? So, we're talking about how do we build neutrality?" "Got it." "Heads I get it, tails I don't. You know how annoying that is?" "Yeah." "That would Can you imagine?" "No, I know." "That would be really Or even worse, buy me exactly what I want. Heads I get it, tails I don't." "Oh, I understand." "Right. You don't get to celebrate every win." "Y." "Something goes well, you modulate your internal response to it." "Oh, so cool. You did this. Ah, I don't have to celebrate that win. And over time, you never get too high or." "So the low doesn't get too low." "Because it's all about dopamine preservation."
"Did you learn that over time?" "I did. I learned this over time and I learned, you know, I'm a practicing physician still. Did you know that? I still have I still I studied you. I know you, but I also studied you." "I still see patients." "Yeah, I know you do." "And over time, you know, you have to ask yourself and I just my patients are incredible." "There is a through line for those that are incredibly successful in their life. We're not talking about a undimensional success." "No, I understand. I understand that because I don't I don't think you can talk about it like that." "Those individuals." "They have an ability to be neutral and it's reflected in their blood work." "It is." "Yes. I mean listen these are not randomized control trials but those individuals that are able to mean a level of neutrality." "On average and listen again this is not causation you know correlation equals causation lower levels of inflammation across the board better hormonal status across the board." "You name it." "I believe that." "Their blood work it it just for whatever reason they are more stable. And you can practice being neutral. I mean, the human animal is predictable. Our weaknesses are predictable."
"You know that you're going to be hungry Friday night. You promise yourself you're not going to have that ice cream." "Very predictable." "Okay. So, plan for it. Be discerning. Stop chasing novelty. And then over time, as you set these standards for yourself, what emerges is the best version of you to go out and tackle whatever it is that you want to tackle."
"You added mindset to the book. How important is this type of mindset to anything anyone's going to do? Whatever book, you know, whatever book they pick up. And I I want it to be this one because I think this is a one-of-a-kind. Thank you." "And uh I've never seen it done before. How important was it to include mindset in the book to make sure that everybody has a full 360 picture?"
"Have you ever bought diet books many years ago?" "I had sh I I had shelves of diet books. Yeah. Next to the supplement cabinet." "Exactly. What was missing from that? It wasn't information." "No, it wasn't. It was mind. It was." "It was the ability to shift your mind to a focal point and be discerning of the noise. Mindset is everything. On average, people will purchase multiple diet and exercise books." "Yeah, I know. But the delta between being able to execute and continue exists within their mind." "Yeah. Because we think we've read the book and it's going to automatically apply somehow and really in reality we put it down and we move on with our day."
"You have to get really deep and intentional. You have to see what are the narratives that you're saying to yourself that are stopping you. What are the what are the unconscious narratives that are holding you back?" "What is your why? How discerning are you? Where do you need to exhibit more discipline so that you can have your own personal freedom? There are all these questions that if they go unanswered, you will continue to fall for anything. And that's why there is an ethos in this book. It's a collective path of action. This isn't a diet book. This isn't a training book." "This book is designed to create monumental shift in humans."
"I know that's your goal. Dr. Gabrielle Lion, I you know, you know, I've been a huge fan. I I think the world of you and uh this is just the next level. All right. If you have not picked up the book, Bab, you need to go pre-order it. Uh the Forever Strong Playbook, and I just think that there's so much to this, grab your copy, start putting what you learned in this episode into practice. Follow Dr. Gabrielle Lion all across social. If you love this episode, do me a favor, leave a review for the podcast, listen to her podcast so we can bring you more of these conversations and I'll see you in the next episode."
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