Transcription
Frank Turk, um, was right there when my friend Charlie Kirk was murdered. Frank Turk is a, a profound man of Christian faith.
Um, Candace Owens despicably, uh, has, uh, intimated that, "Oh, maybe he was involved in the murder of..." It's so horrible. I don't know. I want to, I want to talk to him about, uh, what he's been going through: death threats, as a result of, uh, some of what she said, and his friendship, and his love for Charlie, and being there, um, when it happened.
Uh, Frank Turk is, uh, he's, he's just a spectacular brother in Christ, and I'm excited that I get to talk to him today. Here it is.
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Hey there, folks, welcome back. I don't know about you, but, uh, sometimes, you know, our greatest joys are mingled with the deepest sadness.
Um, the great joy of my friendship with Charlie Kirk, or even if I wasn't his friend, knowing that he's in the world—that joy, of course, uh, is at this point mingled with the great sadness of his loss, the pain of that. Uh, similarly, the joy, uh, that I right now, right now, get to speak to my friend Frank Turk, uh, is mingled with the sadness of what we're going to talk about. But we Christians praise the Lord in all circumstances. We rejoice in God, who knows all kinds of things that we don't know, who has the big picture, and who promises us in the word of God, in Romans 8:28: "All things"—you could take this to the bank—"all things work together for good for those that love the Lord and are called according to his purposes." That's Frank. That's me, by God's grace. Uh, so we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff.
My brother, my friend Frank Turk, welcome.
"I love that passage, Eric. In fact, it goes on to say that all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose to be conformed to the image of his son. And I don't know about you, but it seems to me that pain often conforms us to Jesus. And there's been plenty, plenty of pain going around."
"Yeah. Uh, so it doesn't say all things are good. No, the horrific murder of Charlie was horrific. And, uh, someone asked me, you know, 'When you were there, you saw that. What did, what did you think?' And I thought, 'Well, evil exists, which means good exists, which means God exists.' Because that was unspeakably evil. But it wouldn't be evil unless there was a standard of good. And there wouldn't be a standard of good unless God existed. Well, uh, that's important to say."
It's amazing to me, my sweet friend Frank, that I have not talked to you since before, uh, this happened. Uh, I've thought of you a lot. I've watched you a lot, um, in videos and interviews, but I haven't yet talked to you. And part of the reason for that is I don't want to talk to you—who, I haven't wanted to talk to you, 'cause it's so painful. It's so horrible. When I heard that you were right there, right there. Uh, and I guess you could tell us about that. But I got to tell you, Frank, from my point of view, it gave me great comfort to know you, Frank, whom I know so well, that you were right there. It gave me comfort to think that you were there.
Um, but I, I, I want to talk, you know, about everything. And, but, but I gotta start, you know, with the ugly. Um, and I don't mean the normal ugly, but the particularly ugly of people, I guess, Candace Owens, saying stuff that is just—my head explodes in horror at, at the cavalier sloppiness—because I think to myself, there are people, and this is what's to me diabolical, this is satanic, is that they say a few things that are true, and they suck you in. But in this case, I know that she has said a number of things that are absolutely not just untrue, but ridiculous and offensively ridiculous. And, and you have to take that and say, "Okay, if she has said this, what does that say about everything she has to say?" I don't want to talk to somebody or listen to somebody who has said those things.
It's kind of like Nick Fentes. He's like, "Yo, he can say some things that are true, but guess what? I don't want to hear his voice because he has said some of the most demonic, vile things that anyone could say." So he can stand over there and talk to the wall. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to listen to that voice of the devil, because the devil can say true things in order to tee up the lie that he's going to deliver, which is going to be more powerful.
So when I have heard her say things, uh, suggesting, uh, that people that I love, uh, who loved Charlie, loved Charlie, um, might somehow be involved in his murder. Like, it's easy for me because I know you and Mikey McCoy and Rob McCoy and, and the whole gang. Like, it's easy for me to say, "Sorry, there's not a chance that that's possible," but, um, a lot of people have been sucked into that, including even friends of mine. I've been just stunned that people could get sucked into that, and it reminds me—and I will shut up—um, but even the elect can be deceived.
Uh, and when people say, "I'm just asking questions," which Tucker says, and, and Candace says, "Oh, I'm, I'm just asking questions." You know, who, who was just also just asking questions was Satan in the garden. "I just have a question. Did God really say, Eve? Did he? Are you sure? I'm just asking questions, 'cause it's kind of curious that God would say, 'I don't know. I'm just asking questions.'" The devil can use that, uh, line of reasoning to suck people in.
So, uh, Frank Turk.
"Yeah."
"Where do we start?"
"It's okay to ask questions. It always is. Unless it's the complex question, Eric. Like, if I were to ask you, 'When did you stop beating your wife?' You know, you'd go, 'Whoa, well, there's more to that than a question. You're making an accusation at the same time.' And so many of the questions being asked are complex questions. They're implied. You know, when you say, 'Well, Mikey McCoy didn't act right.'"
"In fact, Candace said this, and look, I don't know Candace's motives. I'm not trying to judge her motives here. She may think she's, uh, pure as the wind driven snow, and she's just trying to find the truth. Okay, fine. But when you say things like, 'There's only three things that can happen in a tragedy: you can'—this is what Candace said—'you can go toward the tragedy, you can run from the tragedy, or you can freeze.' And I can categorically tell you, Eric, that's false, because in a tragedy, first of all, you don't know how you're going to react unless you've been trained beforehand. And I was in the Navy, which, by the way, stands for 'Never Again Volunteer Yourself.' But in the Navy, we would have emergency procedures. Emergency procedures were: if this happens, you automatically do X. You don't think about it. You just do it. Obviously, airline pilots have the same kind of thing. You go right through your checklist. You don't think, you just do. You've, you've practiced it so many times, you just do it."
"Charlie drilled into Mikey's head, 'If anything happens to me, the first thing you do is call Erica.' That's exactly what he did. He called Erica immediately. It wasn't one of the three options that Candace gave. It was the emergency procedure that she knew nothing about. And the only reason I did what I did is because I thought about it beforehand. I was always worried what would happen. Uh, I was always worried that somebody would at some point take a shot at Charlie. And I thought, I said to myself, 'If I'm ever there, do something to help him, whatever that is, get to him somehow.' And so, as soon as the shot rang out, I took a step toward him. And then I thought, 'There's probably more shots coming,' and I ducked. And his men were already on him. I mean, there were six of them around him. At least four of them carried him to the car, 'cause they were the four in the car with me."
"How," let me ask, "how far away were you from him when he was killed?"
"Probably 25 ft. I was off to his right. I was off his right elbow, parallel to him. I was facetiming my son and daughter-in-law because they were big Charlie fans. And this was live. We're, I'm like, 'Hey, we're right here.'"
"Uh, and, uh, so 25 feet maximum. And you know all those stupid conspiracy theories. The man in the white hat, you know, I was the guy in the white hat. You probably saw that."
"Well, see, this is what I'm saying. Like, when I, when I realized that the guy in the white hat is my friend, Frank, I said, 'Wow, are they getting this wrong?' Like these lunatics. Even if you, even if you didn't know me, the whole theory is absurd. Like some shooter 100, 200 yards away. First of all, if he's looking through a scope, he can't see me. I'm 25 feet off Charlie's right elbow. But secondly, why would he need anybody to signal him? He knows there's only one guy under the tent with a microphone, and that's Charlie Kirk. The whole thing is ridiculous."
"And yet the FBI, because the FBI checks into conspiracy theories—they won't tell you they're doing that, and I'll tell you why in a minute—but the FBI actually called me and they said, 'I, I know I have to ask you this. I know it's crazy, but were you signaling the shooter?' And I said to him, 'Yeah, I was telling him to steal second base.' I mean, it's the dumbest thing in, in history. I mean, what, why, why would he need a someone to signal him? It doesn't make any sense. But people, people come up with all sorts of crazy conspiracies."
Frank, part of this, I just want to say, what, what really has grieved me is—and again, this is, this is spiritual warfare. This is, this is the darkness of it, the evil around us—to see the gullibility of people, even people that I know and think well of, how quickly they get sucked into something like this, their willingness to believe crazy stuff. Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's the same thing as when you encounter somebody that's watched a bunch of videos that the earth is flat. I want to smack them. "Hey, idiot!" But, but there could—no, they've watched a few videos, they've got their story, and you think, "Do, do I even engage in a conversation with this person?" When it comes to the some of the stuff that I've heard, I thought, "I know this is just heartbreaking that there were people who did—I guess it's—they never really learned how to think clearly." Like, they are wonderful people, but they are sucked in.
"Yeah, we, we don't, we don't teach logic in school anymore, but let's steel-man their case. There have been in recent years, uh, instances of authorities lying to us."
"Yep."
"So we are in an environment now where people think everybody's lying."
"Okay, that, that this is an important point. When, when, uh, the election was stolen in 2020, uh, when the COVID stuff happened, we were told everybody has to get the shot, and, mhm, that was when the scales fell for my eyes. Uh, and it really did change so much for me that I suddenly realized, 'Yeah, uh, LBJ and company murdered JFK. It, it was not Oswald. Uh, the deep state, uh, CIA, FBI, seems to have taken out Richard Nixon. Um, according to my friend Roger Stone, the same thing happened trying to take out Reagan.' I would have never believed that before 2021. And so a lot of us have been through a process where we go, 'Oh my God.' But the problem is, you then get people, and this is what you're talking about, who take the next step: everything is a conspiracy. Everybody's lying. Hillary Clinton is a lizard person. Oh, no, no, no, no. Uh, Hillary Clinton was just hanged at Guantanamo. Uh, that's not her in the video. It's a, it's a double. Uh, that's not Biden. Look at his earlobes. Everything now becomes Epste."
"Yeah."
"Not in a blender. And there are people that are very susceptible to this. They will believe anything. And folks, I just want to tell you, the truth is tough enough. You don't need to make stuff up. Just stick to the absolute facts. But that's part of what we're seeing here is that there's an appetite, there's an audience. There's money to be made by spinning this stuff. Um, and I just have to say, you know, it, it's painful to see that there's an audience for this. It's painful to see that there are people willing to make money off of this. Um, in, in any event, you were there. Um, were, did you actually see the moment that Charlie was killed? Were your eyes on him at that horrible moment?"
"Yes."
"Yeah."
"Yeah, he—I heard it, and he went right back. And I was on FaceTime with, as I say, my son and my daughter-in-law. And I don't remember exactly what I said, but my daughter-in-law said, 'You just said, "No, no, no, no, no."'"
"And then it was seconds. They got him out on the—if you're looking at the tent, the right side of the tent. I'm on the left side of the tent. So I go behind the tent to meet with them behind it on the way to the car. And there's some video of this. You can see it. And then I got into the back of the car. So I'm perched over him. And that's when I said to the crowd at the memorial, 'He wasn't looking at me. He was looking right past me. His eyes were fixed. He was already with Jesus.' But of course, we had to do what, you know, we had to try CPR. We had to try, you stop the bleed. People say there was no blood. So stupid. There was blood everywhere. I mean, we couldn't stop it there. And, uh, you know, I, I, um, it bring—this brings up so many things."
"First of all, uh, my other dear friend, Rob McCoy. You talk about anybody that loved Charlie."
"Mhm."
"Uh, and of course, his son is Mikey McCoy. Rob, I guess, misspoke at some point because there was blood on you. And then he says that, and then he references his son. So everybody says, 'Well, Rob McCoy lied. He said there was blood all over Mikey.' And D—and again, this is like one of these things when you know somebody, you're like, 'Bob McCoy is, first of all, he's not—that would be really stupid, uh, if you're going to lie like that.' But I, I, I also know the person. You're like, 'No, that, that why you—' But people would hang their hat on that all day long, like, 'Well, there we have it. We have proof that he's part of something,' you know, and I thought, 'Oh my gosh!'"
"Can I speak to that? Because Mikey just talked about it on the Charlie Kirk show the other day. Um, and, uh, the main point here is this: not every false statement is a lie. And people think it is. Um, Rob was confused about what Mikey said when Mikey called and said, 'He's been shot in the neck. There's blood everywhere,' or something. He said something like that. And look, the three of us in the back seat, we—let me, let me just say this: we had to change our clothes, okay? Um, 'cause we didn't want Erica seeing us. And, uh, so we're, we, we, we were wearing hospital scrubs by the time she got there. I threw away my clothes. Um, and, uh, so Rob didn't understand who he thought maybe Mikey was, too, because Mikey was there. Not every false statement is a lie. Just like there's this controversy now over drones, because I said we had some drone footage coming in when, an hour out, Charlie got what I thought was drone footage on his, on his, 'cause it was from above of the crowd, and I said, 'Well, the crowd is amazing.' That's when I said to him, I said, 'Charlie, I don't like this place. There's too many buildings.' And he just shrugged it off because he's brave, and he knew he had to have some level of risk in order to reach people, especially in an outdoor event. So, we went ahead with it."
"Well, I talked to, to, uh, Brian Harpool—he was in the car with, with me in the back. He was the head of security. You saw in Sean Shawn Ryan's program. I said, 'Was there a drone up before?' He said, 'There were no drones up during the event.' He said, 'The PR team may have put a drone up briefly before the event just to get a shot of the crowd. But the other possibility is this, and I didn't know this until we got there: now that I think about it, there were people over us, Eric. There was, it, there was a—I don't know. We, we're down in an amphitheater, and there people—I looked up, they were everywhere. That shot could have been taken from an iPhone, right, from above us, rather than a drone, right? So either there was a drone up early before the event, just a PR drone, not a surveillance drone, or that shot was taken by somebody on the team with an iPhone from above, right? Neither was a lie. People will say, 'Well, look, Harpool said there were no drones. Turk said there was a drone. One of them is a lie.' No, neither are a lie. Okay, it was a misunderstanding. I wasn't at the event until I got there, but this footage came an hour before we got there."
"Well, I didn't know. I mean, again, you know, you're, you're a master of logic. This is what you do. I don't even think I said it in my intro, but you're an apologist for the faith, and you deal with evidence. And, and it's so interesting because again, I was referencing, uh, a friend who said to me, 'Oh, there, I have all these questions, and did you know, and, you know, throwing this stuff out, uh, that I guess was on some video, probably a Candace video, that, "Well, they went to the wrong hospital. How do they know where the hospital?"' All those kinds of questions. And you just think, 'For God's sake! Do you understand what you're saying?' And then trying to attack Erica. It is so wicked. It is so sick that people would do this. But again, Frank, what this makes me see, and it's painful, um, is to see the evil that is still in good people, in Christian people, who, the, there are parts of them that are unsanctified, and they are somehow susceptible to this kind of deception. It's, it's hard. It's hard to see. Um, and I just, uh, that's why it's so important for me to talk to you, 'cause just, uh, you know, because you were right there. Um, and, and look, I don't know if we'll ever get to the bottom of the bottom of the B. There's always questions about everything, but some of this stuff has to be put to bed. Some of these things that have been said are just horrendous."
"Let me, let me just say three quick things. Anything's possible, but not every possibility has evidence behind it. You could say an alien shot, Charlie. Yeah, that's possible. Yeah. But you need evidence if you're going to implicate somebody in a murder. You can't just say, 'This is a possibility,' and therefore that guy then is guilty. This is why Mikey McCoy's getting death threats. Mikey McCoy, he won't even step on an ant. The kid is so docile and so friendly. You know, I get emails, 'You never know what can happen to you. You need to repent.' You know, 'Repent!' Like I'm going, 'What? What are you talking about?' People believe this now. So that's, that's point number one."
"Secondly, not every false statement is a lie. Sometimes it could be, obviously, it could be a lie. It could be just ignorance. It could be like I didn't, I didn't know there was an overhang above us. I didn't know somebody could have been up there with a, with a, with a video camera, with their iPhone, taking pictures from above to show us the crowd. I thought it was drone footage. Either that, or there was a drone up earlier before the event, but legally there couldn't have been one during the event."
"The third thing is, is that the prosecution—people don't understand how prosecutions work. The prosecution's job is not to quell internet conspiracy theories. The prosecution's job is to convict the real killer, and they will not tell you what they're doing in the prosecution for at least three reasons. Number one, suppose they say, 'We're investigating a second shooter,' and they tell the public that. The public, if, if some guy comes forward and says, 'Uh, Mr. DA, I saw the second shooter,' they don't know whether that guy really saw the second shooter, or he just heard they're looking for a second shooter, and the guy's trying to make a name for himself, right? So, they keep all that quiet. Secondly, they can't taint the jury pool. Thirdly, they can't tip off the defense. And so, the prosecution is not going to reveal what they have to reveal before they have to. And that's normally at a pre-trial hearing, which isn't until January, or the trial itself."
"And how do I know this? Because my friend Jay Warner Walls is a cold case homicide detective. He's prosecuted several homicides. And this is what he says: they cannot get out in front of the case. Their job is not to be a PR firm for the prosecution. Their job is to get the, uh, to get the conviction of the real killer."
"And let me, let me, if, if, if you want to do 'what-ifs,' and you want to say, 'Well, people are acting strangely,' Eric, do you think if Tyler Robinson was not the true killer, don't you think his parents would be screaming? You haven't heard a word from them. They were the ones that turned him in. Okay. Now, we'll get to all, to the bottom of this during the trial, but the best evidence we have now is that Tyler Robinson is the killer. Whether he acted alone or not, they're checking into that, but they're not going to tell us what they're doing. It would defeat the purpose of a prosecution."
"There are people, um, people that I respect, uh, that have emailed me, uh, and said, 'Uh, Eric, if you want to have me on the program, uh, I can explain to you, uh, how a 30 odd six could not have been the murder weapon.'"
"Now, I, I didn't take my friend up on, on, on that, because we've, haven't been doing that many shows and whatever, but, you know, people seem to be convinced about X or Y or Z."
"Wrong."
"I'm going to keep saying that. That's wrong. It's wrong. And I'll tell you why it's wrong. 'Cause again, my friend Jay Warner Walls will tell you that it all depends on the distance of the shot, the age of the round. Because look, if he truly is using his grandfather's weapon and his grandfather's ammunition, that round could have been 50 years old. Okay? And also what it struck when it hit. And if it struck his spine, which is what probably happened, that round fragmented—it fragmented. And, um, it's false that that claim that it couldn't have been a 30 odd—that's just false. Okay. It could have been. We'll find out once the autopsy is released. And the autopsy is not going to be released until it has to be released."
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Unbelievable.
Um, I have not reached out to a, a lot of the friends around Charlie, because I can only imagine the craziness that everybody's going through. I think of people that I know around Charlie: Andrew Kovette, um, and a few others. Erica, I've not reached out to Erica, because I could just only imagine that everybody on planet Earth is reaching out to them, and I know that they're all in, in good hands. But I have spoken to a few folks at TPUSA and said, "If there is anything that I can do to help you in this time, you let me know," because, uh, just out of love for Charlie, um, and Erica, uh, anything that I can do, one of the things I can do is talk to folks like you to just get the truth out.
But you realize this is a, s—a satanic attempt to destroy what Charlie built, to destroy the revival that has already begun of faith in Jesus Christ. Um, there are wicked forces out there. Um, I have to say one of, uh, the worst things that, uh, I've been dealing with during this season is seeing somebody that I've always liked, Tucker Carlson, platform, uh, uh, the voice of the devil, uh, coming out of the mouth of, of Nick Fentes. And, and Tucker putting TPUSA in the insanely uncomfortable position of now having to deal with, "Oh, uh, do we let him speak, uh, uh, at Amfest? Would, would Charlie have, would have, would have wanted that?" And what, but now, uh, he's platformed Charlie's bitterest, most jealous enemy on planet Earth, Nick Fentes. What are we doing? And I just think this is all ultimately spiritual warfare, uh, the, the, the vile, uh, uh, accuser of the brethren, uh, the enemy of God, Satan, uh, is, is just desperate, I think, because revival is here, revival is coming, God is at work. Uh, and the blood of Charlie Kirk, uh, is the, is, is the seed of the church, that people are already coming to faith in Jesus as a result of this horrible thing.
Um, but, you know, it is, um, it, it, my, my heart breaks for what everybody at TPUSA is, is going through. I know a little bit about that, but just, wow, you know, to have this happen, and then to have all kinds of other rumors and, and terrible stuff. It just, um, it's tough. And so I just say that, just out of my love for Charlie, uh, I want TPUSA to thrive wildly. Uh, and, uh, and I know by God's grace it will.
"Yeah."
"Yeah. I think, uh, Erica is obviously the right choice to follow Charlie. She's inspirational in her own right, and she's going to do everything she can to make sure that Charlie's legacy continues. I happened to be with her the other night at a Megan Kelly event in Phoenix. Megan invited me to come and speak briefly about Charlie and offer a prayer. And so Erica was there, and, and so was Andrew, and so was Mikey. And, uh, they're all just laser focused on making sure that Charlie's legacy continues. Uh, so continue to pray for them. Uh, Andrew and Mikey are doing as best they can, along with Blake Nef, uh, on Charlie Kirk's show to keep that going. And it's still going well. I mean, it's got great ratings. People are, are watching, and because they're smart guys. They, you know, Charlie called Blake his secret weapon because Blake is a brilliant guy, and now he's spend a lot of time on the air. Um, Erica, of course, is grieving, but she is still, uh, brilliantly focused on the job that needs to be done. She is not going to allow her husband's legacy to go the wrong direction, and, or to fade away. And so I'm, I'm going to do whatever I can to help her. I know you will as well. Um, and you're right, Eric. It's all spiritual warfare. As David Engelhard, you had on the other day, said—who's a, on the board of TPUSA, and he's a pastor—he says, you know, 'Wolves come in from the inside, and there attacks coming from the outside. They're all trying to tear things down. We just have to stay focused on the Lord and keep doing things that, that bring him glory, and, uh, and help save the country as well.' So, we're going to keep doing that."
You know, I, I said a number of times, uh, and I guess I'm in a position to know, uh, because I wrote a big book, um, oh, I just, just happen to have a copy here. Um, you know, I, I'm, I'm in a position to make the statement that Charlie Kirk is, uh, the American Bonhoffer. Charlie's faith, um, in no small part thanks to you, was so strong, um, and it was so central to everything. You know, he didn't just care about America. He cared about America because God cares about America, because America could not exist without, uh, without God, without Christians. He understood all of that.
And, um, you know, I, I said that he, he is the American Bonhoffer. And one of the horrible things is, in order to get to be the American Bonhoffer, you have to be murdered by, uh, by dark forces, you know. But, but the Lord allows these terrible things. The Lord allowed Bonhaofer to be killed at age 39. Everybody felt exactly as we feel about Charlie. "What a tragedy! How could God allow this?"
Um, I think of Joseph Warren, killed at the Battle of Bunker Hill, 34 years old. He was basically the leader of the whole patriot movement in 1775, killed at Bunker Hill. How could God allow it? I just wrote the chapter in my upcoming book on the American Revolution about Nathan Hail. Nathan Hail was one of the most godly, wonderful, charismatic Christian patriots you could ever imagine, killed by the British brutally, age 21. Wow.
We have to understand God does allow this stuff. It's horrible. It's horrible, but out of it can come beautiful things. And, and I really do think that the, the Lord allowed this. It's very tough for us to, to deal with how the Lord allows this stuff. But if we really know him, and he challenges us to get to know him better through the suffering, through the pain, it sanctifies us, as you just said in, in, in giving us the latter part of Romans 8:28. Um, that God is at work. Alon is on the move in America. And at some point I want to talk to Erica about Charlie's legacy and about the, the, the connection to Bonhaofer, because I think that there is something—it's painful and it's beautiful. It's like I said at the beginning, it's, it's, it's beautiful and wonderful and heartbreaking, just as the crucifixion, uh, just as the death of St. Steven. Um, it's mixed.
"Uh, it, it, it makes no sense unless God exists, Eric, right? Because if God doesn't exist, this wasn't evil. This is just a, a creature that was created by natural forces, which has no ultimate meaning, meaning an early end to his life. But if God does exist, he allows evil because he allows free will, which allows love. And remember, his goal just isn't here on earth. His goal is to make people conformed to the image of his son, which takes us into eternity."
"And let me just say categorically that Charlie was conformed to the image of Jesus better than I am. And he was 30 years younger than me. I mean, he was already conformed. I mean, he wasn't perfect. We all know that. But he was conformed. And I, I, I should show you some of the texts he and I had. You'd go, 'How does this kid have this wisdom at 31? How does he know? How is he quoting scripture back to me on what to do with someone who is attacking him?' He, he sent me, 'Blessed are the peacemakers. I'll talk to him.' How, how is this kid doing this at 31? He was already conformed."
"Okay, the bigger tragedy—this is a tragedy, obviously. The bigger tragedy is living 85 years and doing nothing for the Lord, or worse yet, fighting the Lord the whole way and his mission. There's always a ripple effect. In Charlie's case, it's a tsunami. Eric, there are people coming to Christ all over the world. I got an email from a lady from Sweden. She said, 'I'm a, I'm been atheist my whole life. I'm a Christian now because of Charlie Kirk.' This is—it's coming from all around the world. We're getting emails. Uh, people are rededicating their lives to Christ. They're becoming Christians. Bible sales are up 40% since Charlie. I mean, if, if Charlie were here today, and we were to say, 'Um, Charlie, in order for 100 people to come to Christ and become disciples, you have to die,' he'd go, 'Sign me up. I don't want to leave Eric and the kids, but that's what my life is all about anyway.' It's a lot more than 100, Eric. It's a lot more than a hundred."
"And, uh, you're right, the devil is going to come out and try and stop this. You always get more flak when you're over the target. Charlie was over the target. Okay. Um, what, what, what we're trying to do at Turning Point—and when I say 'we,' I'm not a member of Turning Point. I'm not a, I'm not paid. I'm just a friend, but I'm trying to support them as best I can—is doing much of the Lord's work. And so, he's going to attack it. Satan doesn't attack ineffective people. Why waste your time? He's going to attack effective people. So good can come from this even when we don't see it. But we're seeing a lot of it from this awful tragedy."
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I just don't have any doubt that, um, that's what this is. That this is part of God's plan. The Lord allows terrible things. Listen, uh, the state of Israel came into being, uh, as a result of the Holocaust. The Holocaust was as evil as it gets. Um, these things are complicated, but if we trust God—and this is to me what is the, the bigger picture here, Frank—is that this has forced us to choose. Do we trust God more or less?
When something like this happens, there are all kinds of voices that say, "You know what, I, I don't see how God could allow that. I, I'm, I'm out." You know, how could God allow—people kind of act like they, they're morally superior to God. "How can he allow," you know, and you think, "Well, um, you know, it's—" I always think of Larry King; he would always have people on after a tragedy. It was usually Franklin Graham. "Give Franklin Graham on. Can we get Franklin Graham? How could God allow the tsunami?" And I always thought, like, you know, it's a great question and a stupid question. "Have you heard of the Holocaust? Have you heard of—there have been wicked horrors since the beginning of time? What are you talking about, Larry King?"
I mean, but they're, they're not horrors unless God exists. They're just something you don't like. They're only preferences or dislikes. There are no rights unless God exists. There's nothing good or evil unless God exists. Because without the standard of his nature, it's just one person's opinion against another. It's just Hitler's opinion against Bonhaofer's opinion, if there is no standard beyond both of them. So the very question, asking the question, presupposes a standard, and that standard, objective standard, can only exist if God exists.
So Charlie is in glory. His struggle with this fallen world is over. But our struggle continues, and he wants us to—Jesus wants us to continue the struggle, and Charlie does too. So we have to continue. We have to press on.
"Well, listen, it's, um, uh, it is, and I know you've probably experienced this far more than I, but, uh, every now and again, the, the nightmare, it's like you wake up and you think, 'Charlie's gone!' Like, how can that be? That, that can't be. That's why you said, 'No, no, no, no, no.' Everything in us says no. But the Lord says, 'It's okay, my son. I love you. I love Charlie. It's okay.' Um, this is not the end, and we can trust God, but it's tough. We have to be honest that it's tough. But, but do we believe what the word of God says? Do we believe Romans 8:28?"
"And folks, you're listening, you got to choose. Are you going to trust God? Will you trust God? That is, uh, his will for you is that you would trust him, that you would submit your life to him. And I know there are people listening or watching right now, they have not done that. They have said, 'Yeah, but, yeah, but I, I, I know, I guess maybe, uh, sex outside of marriage is not God's plan.' 'But I don't know, God's a God of grace.' What? You have to choose. If you want God to bless your life, you have to submit to him. You have to submit to him. And if you do not, you're on your own. And you don't want to be on your own. You don't want to be on your own because the forces of hell desire you. That the forces of hell want to destroy you. And your only hope, your only hope is to submit to the will of God in every part of your life. And when you do that, you're standing firmly on the rock that is Christ Jesus. And only then can you see what God has for you."
"Only then what happened with Charlie is, is, it's one of these moments where I really believe all kinds of people that were on the fence. They were sort of—something is happening where they're saying, 'You know what, okay, okay, I'm going to submit my whole life to Jesus. I know that if I don't, I'm, I'm a lunatic. I'm crazy. I'm gonna do this.' So that is happening, Frank. You know, I just, um, I'll give you the last word, but, uh, this is, you know, it's an infinite conversation."
"Yeah, I can go on. Let's pray for everybody involved, including Candace Owens. Um, I, I, you know, I don't—she might even be having a mental breakdown for all I know, because some of the things she's been saying are just mutually contradictory, Eric. I mean, like, for example, unless all of these parties are involved, which is impossible, most of what she's saying is false. Like, for example, she said that it's Israel, it's Netanyahu, it's Trump, it's TPUSA, it's, it's Egypt, it's Mikey McCoy, it's, it's Rob McCoy, it's France. I, I thought France—all I thought all France did was surrender, but apparently they're involved in this now. I mean, she's got everybody but the most plausible, uh, uh, culprit, Tyler Robinson, as the killer. They can't all be true, which means most of what she's saying is false. So, I don't know if she has, she's thought this through. I, I, I just, you know, you're, you're putting forth mutually contradictory possibilities. And again, you can't put forth possibilities that implicate people unless there's real evidence that they are guilty. And you don't have it. You don't have it. You have possibilities. You have contrived, um, circumstances that could be true in a murder situation, but you don't have any corroborating evidence for that. And, and, and so it's very reckless when people are getting death threats. Very reckless."
"I mean, as I said on my own show, I said, if I were to say, you know, 'I think Candace Owens did this. I think Candace Owens decided to have Charlie killed because she was upset that she was no longer invited to the big TPUSA events, and she thought if she could get rid of Charlie, maybe they'd ask her back in the fold, and she could be the president. And she's coming up with all these different crazy theories to take attention off of her. And I think she was also jealous of Erica. I think she really loved Charlie, and Charlie didn't pick her.' Now, is that possible? It's possible. But I'd be completely reckless to say I'm truly proposing that, because I have no evidence of any of that. And I, I don't want to put Candace in danger. I don't want people to go, 'Candace is the one that did this,' and then suddenly she has people coming after her. No, that would be completely wrong. But it seems to me that's what she's doing to other people, knowingly or unknowingly."
"Frank, um, you know, I never do this on the program, but, uh, would you just pray, uh, pray for Candace and, and just close us out with a prayer, because I think this stuff is so tough. We need to appeal explicitly to the Lord."
"Sure. Father, we thank you for, uh, Candace Owens. She is a, a brilliant woman, and, um, we think she's going in the wrong direction. Um, we pray, uh, if that is indeed the case, which it seems to be, that you would speak to her in some way, through your word or through your Holy Spirit, and, uh, help her to see the truth. I pray you'd help the prosecution find the real killer. We think we know who that is, but we know that the prosecution is looking into every possible theory to make sure they have the right killer. And we pray for calm. We pray for TPUSA, from Erica, to Andrew, to Mikey, to Justin, to David, to all, to Blake, to all the people, to Brian, to all the people that were close to Charlie, and Eric as well. And, uh, we pray for peace, and your, uh, your will be done, that more people would come to know you, not just as a believer, but as a disciple. So help TPUSA to do that, to also help the country to do what is right. We thank you for Eric and his platform. Please help us to find the truth and to be liberated by the truth, to be set free by the truth. In Christ's name we pray. Amen."
"Amen, my friend. Thank you. Uh, where can people best find you? I hope people, uh, listening right now will look you up. Frank Turk, tur k. What's best place for people to find you?"
"Cross-examined.org and the *I don't have enough faith to be an atheist* podcast. We do two podcasts a week. crossexamined.org. Yep. cross-examined with a d.org. And, or you can just look for the *I don't have enough faith to be I don't have enough faith to be an atheist* podcast. And of course, our YouTube channel, Crossexamined, Instagram page, whole deal. Yeah."
"All right, my friend, my brother. Love you. Thanks for coming on today."
"Same here, brother. Keep doing what you're doing."
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