Alex Hormozi - Peace Or Power | Ep. 158 PART 1

I love this. So like I can talk as much as you want about this.

I wish that more people did this.

Why bother? What's what's the point of all of this?

Are you sacrificing yourself?

I have used up every ounce of potential that I have to serve the most amount of people.

What is it that is at the center of your universe that changes you for the outworld?

I have strong beliefs loosely held.

But when I'm looking at you, bro, I see a lot of lonely nights, a lot of tears, a lot of sacrifice.

Do you think that's a projection of what you think I am? I did not come prepared enough to dish back to you what I feel is worthy enough for you to ponder.

Which one do you really believe in your heart of hearts? And I was like, in my heart of hearts, I just don't believe it.

Well done, man. You got me.

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Dude, what's up, Alex? How are you, dude?

Good, man.

I'm pumped about this episode.

I'm pumped, too.

I am pumped. By the way, uh we got to talk before the podcast and uh before I even start the podcast, I always ask my close friends like, "Hey, I'm about to interview this guy." Like, "What do you think? What do you think? Is there any questions? Is there any concerns?" Like, I like to touch base. I have never seen the feedback that I got from a guest that I'm interviewing like I have with yours. I've had dudes that are like not even horrified for him like I don't even know. They'll literally be like not even listening to me. They'll be over here and I'll be like, "Yeah, I'm going to be, you know, interviewing Alex." And they just put their phone down. They go, "He's changed my life." And I was like, "Oh my god, that's really cool."

So, you've done a lot of cool things. And there was one thing my friend said about you, and I right off the rip, I want to say it. He goes, "In every interview, any clip, any media, when a when the camera is hitting him, he's always the same person." And that is a crazy crazy compliment because even myself, I wrestle that even on my own podcast. I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm trying so hard here." Like, I need to tone it back. And you told me that this podcast was going to be a little nerve-wracking for you because of like you don't tap into to that emotional side. Can I tell you something?

Sure.

You you I can't tell you how grateful I am that you said that because since last night I'm like researching a lot about you really diving deep asking questions and I just said a prayer to God I said God I just want him to be wanting to have a deep conversation with me and the fact that the first thing you said like no I'm ready and I said hey there's anything you don't want to talk about you're like no anything you want and so like I guess we'll start with this question if you could have all the money and power in the world or just peace.

Mhm.

Which one do you lean towards?

It would be all the money and power.

Okay. I Okay. Okay. So, I'm leaning towards peace.

And I feel like you and I were very different on this table, but there's a lot of things that you've done that my whole entire bloodline hasn't accomplished. So, let's just put it all on the table. Why is it that you would choose that rather than peace? So, I see it as a um as a question of utility versus satisfaction. And so, I remember wrestling this with with this when I was um coming of age and I thought, you know, I looked at a bunch of scientific literaturi people. So, I was very happiness obsessed for like many years of my life. Um my mother struggled with with mental illness and in the family there's a bunch of bad stuff. Um, and so I was like, well, I want to try and get ahead of this, you know, and so the people who had the highest subjective well-being ratings, there's one group that's like four standard deviations above most of the population, and that's um, a certain sect of monks that meditate for like 10 plus hours a day. And so they just have like completely, you know, left shifted or sorry, right shifted the the graph in terms of like where they all sit. where they're just operating at a different level of contentedness um with the world. And so I was very strongly considering like, okay, well, if peace is the goal, then that is the clear path. I can just go be a monk and just do that and that is like that is the most proven way of doing it. And when I thought about that path versus let's say let's take a a Steve Jobs or a Musk or a Bezos whatever flavor you you have of the impact that those people had on the world and sometimes to their own I would say great sacrifice I would prefer I think maybe on some other level I would rather get to the end of my life knowing that I had helped many people and Maybe that is a backwards way of getting to my own peace. So, it would depend more in terms of how do we define peace, but

that's why I want to find the root of it because when I listen to you speak and I and I I see your metrics on where your theology is, dude, you you build men, you wake up in the morning and your compass is pointed to like how to make my neighbor happier faster. And so, in my brain, that is a level of peace. Like I know you sat down with people that I even look up to, Tony Robbins and all these other type of people would say helping your neighbor there's a source of peace to it.

Mhm.

That's why I asked the power aspect of it because I guess my question is do you are you sacrificing yourself? Have you put yourself in a position that you're like okay well me and my family we've wrestled with peace.

So if I'm going to keep wrestling with it, let me be the one that wrestles with it and not my neighbors and the ones that I love.

I think um I would say that I have a willingness to um more than the actuality of it. I think that I live a very blessed life if we use if I use that term.

Yeah.

Um I I do what I am good at and I enjoy doing that thing possibly because I'm good at it. Um, and I would say that if you were to ask my team who interact with me on a daily basis, they'd probably say like Alex is a pretty happy guy.

Um, I enjoy my life. Um, that said, I think there's like, let's call it 90% of the day when I'm just there's whatever mode we get in when we're like doing things and then there's maybe the 10% of your life or 5% whatever percentage is for you that's maybe you're a little bit more introspective and you're like, hm, why bother? What's what's the point of all of this? And I don't think that anyone really has the answer. And of course there's there's theological answers to that and I I I don't um my mother's a born again Christian evangelical. So I was raised in this um and during that 5 years of like the happiness studies that I did um I had a trunk at the bottom of my bed big trunk and it was filled to the brim of just theological books and um specifically apologetics. So defense of faith for Christianity and so I got very deep into that because I thought maybe I can logic my way there. Maybe I can like make a bulletproof argument case for Christ um mere Christianity. Some of those types of books that are kind of like the the tip of the iceberg. Um, but uh to to go back to the original question of like do I feel like I'm sacrificing myself? Um, no. Because I think that if you sacrifice yourself, you're giving up something. And I don't think that I've given up nearly as much as many people have given up for me.

And you don't have to answer this if you don't feel comfortable, but congratulations on you're about to be a father.

Yeah. Yeah.

Does that realm of sacrifice there like does does that enter in your mind? Like usually when a man is about to have a baby, he's always thinking of like, okay, I should like for example, you say this to men, work out now, get on your grind now because later on it's going to be harder. Uh cuz you won't be able to sacrifice that time. You say you don't sacrifice, but all of your time and energy if it's for money and power.

And I feel like you're smart enough to realize that you're not taking that with you.

Oh, and to be clear, the money and power can never be the goal.

Yeah.

It's I translate that into would you rather have infinite potential energy that you can transmit into whatever you want or peace? And I can do a hell of a lot more with power and money. And a lot of people have a negative connotation to even the words power and money, but power and money can be used to build hospitals, save countries, save people. Um, peace can save me.

And maybe in the like I think it's a bit of a like have your cake and eat it too. I think that if I had infinite power and money, I could help a a godly amount of people. Um, and probably also uh achieve a certain amount of peace and satisfaction for a job well done. I just want to know what the root of the seed is. Like I see what your tree is and it's very fruitful. I mean I could even tell by your own teammates like they're all happy. They're at peace. They're they're excited to be here. You could tell when somebody's in in in a good place when they're working. You're saying to help your neighbor, to help your neighbor for what reason? What stems in your heart? The benefit of helping your neighbor. Cuz remember me and Tony were cheesy, but we do it to receive peace. We do it like, okay, like in our in our way of life, God says, "Love God with all of your heart and love your neighbor as yourself."

Mhm.

I'm going to dig deeper into that because loving yourself is tough. Like especially when it's your own career and you have to monitor that and I would love to dive deep into that. I would actually like to learn from you.

Um, but what is it like what made you so hungry for you to go do this? Because from from everybody else, from their perspective of them watching you, they're seeing your success. But when I'm looking at you, bro, I see a lot of lonely nights, a lot of tears, a lot of sacrifice. There's a lot going into what you're doing.

Can I ask why you see that? Because I don't have any lonely nights and I don't cry very much. And so, um, do you think that's a projection of what you think I am or how I am versus how I act?

I think that's a projection of You're right. It is a projection because I don't know you. So that that's me assuming and I'm sorry. And I guess from where I've sat in my life with people that I look up to, not people that I'm saying in a rude way, I've seen them sacrifice, cry, and build. And I feel like I'm building somewhat of what you're building. Not at the same level, but yeah, I've cried and I've been frustrated and I've sacrificed. But the end goal in my brain is when I meet God, I wanted my art to touch lives. So I I that gives me the motivation to push through my pain. And if you don't mind me asking if I kind of want to take a travel back, how is it that you don't cry and you don't feel emotion towards this?

It's not that I don't feel emotion. I think it's um I mean I cried the day I got married. Um I would just say like I cry less often than maybe other people cry. I don't see it necessarily as a deficit. What is the correct amount of crying? Um, you know what I mean? And does the amount you cry have any relation to how happy, sad, in touch with anything you are? I don't know.

I feel like I cry a lot. Not in a way like I'm a sad person, but if I see you're going through, so for example, I saw a video of you crying looking at your wife. I would be emotional cuz I'm like, my goodness, what a blessing that he found somebody he loves so much. And then I would also get emotional.

I almost only tear I only I would say almost exclusively tear up for happy things. Wow, that's really sweet.

So, I get choked up for happy things. For gratitude is usually where I get very and I see pictures of like how I came up. I can get like choked up because I I know how much I suffered at that point compared to now and how how hard I was pushing to get to here.

Can I touch on that?

Sure.

Was there a place in your life where you said, "Hey, we're done crying?"

No. Um, I think I I teared up or choked up on the on the podcast I did with um Steven Bartlett. It was when I was talking about Ila. Um, but no, I don't think No, I I don't I also have no positive or negative uh judgment on crying.

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Have you always been more like analytical and not and less emotional?

Um, I would say that my approach to the world has been one of like a child very confused trying to figure out what is what and trying to define words in ways that I can observe rather than I would say more vague language. And that has helped me tremendously in my life because I can get clarity on instruction and I can get clarity on giving instruction to other people which allows us to scale organizations things like that but also make things repeatable. Um but just like I think a lot of times people are very surprised by their lives. They do something and what they thought was going to happen didn't happen. And it was because they were not very good at predicting outcomes. And a big part of that is because the way the world works versus what they the way they think it works are different. And so I would say that I have put a lot of effort into trying to understand how the world works and maybe more specifically how do humans work. And so you asked a question earlier about like why I can't remember what the why. Oh, you said we um me and Tony do this thing because um we you know we seek happiness or somebody that to that degree.

I just want because we're you think of an afterlife of like what we're accounted for here.

Yeah.

You're so the levels that you're at I've only see when people are chasing something that is bigger than them.

So to watch you speak in such like a humble way like a child like walking into a room and just analyzing it. Well, one, you're good at it. It's like very good at it. And the second is like, that's why I asked the peace thing because what is it like, okay, there's a verse in the gospel.

Yeah.

And I think about it when I think of you. What is it? What is it worth to gain the whole world but then lose your soul?

Totally.

Now, I'm not saying you're sitting here selling your soul or that I've lost it.

Yes.

But I'm saying, what have you done to nurture it?

So, so this is a this is a really good example. Um, so there's two words that we've thrown back and forth and most people would nod their heads and say like, "Oh, I know what they're talking about." But if I were to say soul and you were to say soul or I were to say peace and you were to say peace, I don't know if we'd say the same thing.

And so we're using this word as a construct, and this is why I like language so much is that like, and this is where miscommunications happen. Um, and like there was one with, you know, Tony at the very beginning of the podcast. I say pain or I say suffering, he says pain. He defines it differently than I do, but we actually we actually do mean the same thing, but it makes an apparent conflict, right? And so

perspective.

Yeah. And so so to me it's like what what does peace mean to you?

Maybe my definition of utility might be peace for you.

Fair. I don't know what is your if you think of peace what what do you feel what do you see that I have used up every ounce of potential that I have to serve the most amount of people and that's your version of peace and utility. I will be at peace when I do that. It will also be my point of maximum utility. I will have been made useful. I see myself as a tool.

Yeah. I'm just I'm just I'm interested in you because that'll get taken out of context.

Oh, buddy. Yes, you are. I'm just kidding. No, but I This is so fascinating to me because I think like Okay, to watch somebody be as hungry for serving others and being like the utility for others, they're usually basing it off of something greater than them. So if you have nothing greater than you then what

there's many things greater than me.

Ah okay. So what is it that I don't hold myself on a pedestal.

I wouldn't I wouldn't I just you know you don't come off like that at all.

What I meant that is like a higher power. Some people it might be Buddha and some people it might be Jesus but in my brain they that has channeled them to to go farther in life than by themselves. And so when I'm asking you the power of peace thing, usually people say, "Oh, I want power until it reaches peace." Or some people say, "Oh, I do this so I could have peace with my family."

I'll answer your question. I spent basically 5 years in the pursuit of peace or happiness or satisfaction, whatever version of that word, and we can get more specific if we want to, but um and that was unfruitful for me. And so I decided to forego the path of chasing happiness and peace and started chasing something that I could do rather than something that I could feel. And when I started shifting all of my behavior and all my learnings around what can I do and focusing only those things, I started getting satisfaction as a result. And so then that became a huge shift in my worldview of like I will just focus on the things that I can see with my eyes and do with my hands. And that's that's basically and and the reason I think the the the books and the content things like that is that I only describe the world in words that people can understand with their eyes and their ears and and their hands. Um and that's what allows for really clear communication and a high percentage of communication translating to the other person. And this is why I think I I would say that if I were ever against anything, it would be vague language. Um it's just terms that people use that sound good rhetoric. um you know putting words together that alliterate that rhyme um but doing it in a way that uh people like oh that sounds really good but they don't know what it means um and so they can't really take any action as a result but it sounds good

if I may. Um so you're very much somebody you're very much somebody who likes to take things in charge. Were you would you say that you were a little bit of like a control freak when you were younger like you needed to like figure out something worked?

No. And do you find it I'm the opposite really.

You like feel like you can like be hands off and let things I have high standards. That's my job is to hold the standard. Um but no uh I also see control as the equal opposite of freedom.

Mhm.

It like restricts you. You cannot have if you want to have absolute control um you can't have like if you want to control every single thing in your business then you're also controlled by your business. like you will not be free unless in a lot of entrep not to get too far into business but like a lot of entrepreneurship is giving up control at different levels. So in the very beginning you do everything and so then you have to relinquish control on some things and give them to other people in order for you to rise up and do the next thing.

Yeah. I think that's what I struggle with. Um actually it's so funny something I was dealing with with Belle today. I think that I have a hard time letting go. M um could you teach me how your brain adapted to holding the standard but not letting it control you and clearly defining it? And so typically the where where problems happen is where you're like you get what I'm doing right okay I need you to do it most people so to answer the original question which you guys do these things because of a higher purpose etc. My worldview is that we do things because we've been rewarded for doing them. Period. And so

what happens if you stop getting rewarded for it?

You stop doing it.

Can I ask you I I always say, can I ask you a question? I'm just going to stop saying that. If there's ever a question that I run into.

Okay. So, what happens if your wife stops doing that for you?

If she stops what? Rewarding you in the ways that you she used to reward you with.

Cuz time grows. Everything changes. then whatever things that I was doing that got reward would eventually go extinct.

Do you feel like that could be catastrophic to the relationship?

Totally. I think a lot of marriages suffer from that. I think lack of appreciation is like the number one reason people get divorced.

Mhm. So, how would you how would you reframe that from happening when everything evolves?

So, there's there's levels to this, right? And by the way, I'm only asking as a student, not as like somebody who's like got it. I love this. So like I can talk as much as you want about this.

So we also create these rules. So I'll zoom out. We have a personality. I define personality as um how we act in different situations. So if you take the aggregate of every situation and how someone acted, you could der you could derive their personality. We then because I couldn't tell you every single situation, every single behavior, we then create labels that chunk up that behavior. And so we give a term, he's a control freak, he's uh whatever because it's easier to say that and then the person who hears that has a series of behaviors associated with that one word and then thinks, okay, I think I know what that person's talking about. And fundamentally, this is how language works. We bundle and unbundle terms. And so I'll give a like a third grade level one for the audience. Um which is if you think if I were to look at a 5-year-old and say, "Hey, get better at basketball. There's nothing they could do with that. You can't get better at basketball." I could then break it into, okay, you have to pass, you have to shoot, you have to dribble. Get better at, you know, passing, shooting, and dribbling. Even there, still kind of hard. Underneath of passing, I might say, okay, I want you to take your right foot and I want you to step towards the person and I want you to extend your elbows and I want you to finish with your thumbs down and leave your hands there and have the ball go to the other person. If the person catches it in the motion that they're traveling, then you did a good pass. That is something that a 5-year-old can do. And then if I break down shooting and I break down uh dribbling in in that in that way, then they're going to be able to have something that they can do and then in aggregate later they'll be described as a good dribbler, a good shooter, a good passer, and then eventually a good basketball player. And so to your original question of how do I give this I'm I'm having trouble giving these these things up. It's more so having trouble defining what exactly you you think good is. What does good look like? How does this person know they did a good job? And a lot of times it's not one or two things. It's like 37 things. And so it's being very exhaustive in the details of what what we think good is so that we don't say do good job and then expect them to guess and get it right when we couldn't even define it for ourselves for them.

What you're describing to me is uh is like pattern and potential. I always talk about this with people. An example I'll use is dating. A girl will fall in love with the potential and not the pattern. She'll skip the pattern, not see it. Well,

what do you mean by pattern?

For example, uh he has an anger issue and every time they bring up this type of argument, he snaps, he reacts, he apologizes, she forgives, he moves on. But because of the forgiveness parts there, she forgets all of the other stuff. So when it recycles the pattern, she doesn't see a pattern. She sees potential. If he is like this, then I will be happy. And when you're describing the basketball thing from my perspective is that you're very good at seeing patterns and understanding what is structured and what is not structured.

This doesn't give you anxiety in your in your head because of so many of them going around.

Zero.

Dude, you're an interesting human being.

I'm a very low stress person.

I I I've never been this interesting. I buckle in my and I dog. What does this mean? Okay. All right. I'm just gonna talk to you like a homie. Yeah. You understand patterns more than anybody just from sitting down with you. I'm like, "This dude's a robot." Like, you know everything about if I hung out with you for maybe three days, you would know me inside and out and you would know how it work. You know where I fall short. I know people like you. So, if my question is I know people like you because they're very successful people. Anything I say, if it sounds disrespectful, just punch me right in the face.

I'll round up is

Yeah. Okay. Just don't round house. Okay. So, if that's the case, then doesn't it alarm you that we see many men that are tested with a lot of money and power and they end up not having a great ending to their career or life because it overtakes them. Not saying it's you, not saying it's me, but since you've seen the patterns, what are you doing to stop you and your household from being extinguished by what is power and success?

So I would in some ways define that as a like a money aholic.

A money alcoholic.

So if you if you think of like any kind of alahholic isms, any kind of addiction, it typically is when the reinforcement loop for whatever the behavior is, whether it's drinking, it's drugs, it's swearing, whatever, gets in the way of your larger goals. And so if you can drink, but it doesn't interfere with your marriage, your work, your social life, then you're a responsible drinker. And for some people that might be way So to me again there's the medical definition but I would say the way that I would see the behavior is that if someone has no zero interference so it doesn't if it's not affecting their health. Now if it does it doesn't affect anything else but it does affect your health then it's it's aversive to your long-term goals. But if you find a way it's very difficult obviously because it does have aversive effects on your health. just to use a simple example. Um, but if you found a way to drink that somehow didn't impact your health and you were able to do so regularly and it didn't impact work, life, marriage, whatever, then I would say that you are not necessarily addicted because it like in in a negative way because nothing bad has happened and it's not it's not taking anything away from you. If the pursuit of money, right, which in the Bible is the pursuit of money. Um, that's the roo of evil, not money itself. Um if the pursuit uh or rather the love of but whatever um uh if if that cycle becomes too reinforcing that you neglect your other duties that like your marriage or your kids or your health then that is when this thing has become too powerful.

So then I I think I made a mistake by asking you like a Sophie's choice power or peace.

Yeah. But if you were That was a terrible first question by the way. That was great. If you're staying here, thanks for bearing with me.

I think if I said I reject the premise, would have been a tough first response.

That would have just been a cut.

Um, okay. So then in your household, what is it that you envision? And what is it that you cuz like for mine is to love God and to love my neighbors. Is there rules or a regulation that you live by?

I would say Leila and I have agreed on I mean a lot of things but um a big one I think that's a credto of ours is leave it better than you found it and so that's people the earth all the employees our company all the customers anyone who interacts with us if we can leave them better than we found them or they found us then we will be a net positive overall and that means if we go to Whole Foods and grab food then it means that we'll clean the table even if the you know the the table's dirty and we'll put the chairs back. Just very small things like that. But I think taking in aggregate over a long period of time um and those are things that I look forward to you know teaching my child you know fingers crossed everything works out.

Yeah that's great that's a great value mindset and but can I ask you so when it comes to that and it comes to even chasing money so that you know what I mean it doesn't overtake you. Who do you think keeps you accountable? Do you feel like it's only yourself that's keeping you accountable? Your wife? What if one of you guys fall short of that?

And I like and even the like again not to like reject the premise but like um it's not that I chase money per se. The options were peace and money and power which I see as potential or self-satisfa like ability to save millions of people or you know just helping myself. This one I can have my cake and eat it too. This one I would just help me. I'd rather do this one. Um, in terms of my, you know, daily activities, um, I chase things that I'm interested in, that I'm good at more than anything. Like, why? Like, I mean, I think the core of the question that you originally asked is like, why do you do what you do? I do what I do because I'm rewarded for doing it. That's why I do it.

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All right, back to the episode. If you if you stopped being rewarded for it,

yeah, what would you see yourself moving on to?

I think I would change my behavior and find something else that rewards me. So when people experience burnout for example, it's a term that you know gets thrown around a lot.

I get burned out a lot.

So this is really and then you might find this interesting. So it's like they're stupid people. I was like should have been quiet there. Should have been quiet there.

No. Um, so burnout is just when the the the cycle of reward that you're accustomed to either becomes too latent, so too far in advance, uh, uh, not int like intense enough um, or you habituate to it or it stops happening. So there's all four of those scenarios are basically like what used to feel good when you do something doesn't feel as good now that you've done it a 100 times. And this is basically the hydonic cycle. And so um it also works in equal opposite which is like if you punish a child or you punish anyone in the same way eventually habituate you get used to it. And so in order for punishment to be effective you have to change variety and intensity of punishment in order for it to stay to keep working right. Um and so again the same thing happens with reward. Um and so when we get burned out, we are we used to do these things and we used to get this satisfaction out of it and now I do these same things and I don't get that same satisfaction and so we feel uh burnt out. That's the so basically it's the experience of an extinction curve on a behavior. Now, where it gets tougher is where you have um other contingencies that make it difficult for you to leave. And so, you have competing priorities. And so, it's like, let's say you have a family who relies on you um and you had this job and when you started it, you had to do these activities and it rewarded you. But over time, people just started to expect you to do it. They stopped saying good job. Um or just the nature of the work, it no longer was challenging for you because you got so good at it that it wasn't. Again, the challenge itself is rewarding when you overcome it. So, there's lots of reward cycles that happen on a daily basis. Um, but anyways, as you continue to work now, let's say the job is zero satisfaction, but it still pays you. And so there still is a reinforcer that occurs. Uh, and reinforcement just means uh, anything that makes a behavior happen more. That's it. Anything that does that is a reinforcer. Um, and so getting paid is a great reinforcer for doing something, but it's still all the other reinforcers in the job might have gone away. And so your family might have expectations which also rule following for you as a global thing because I have an identity as a good father, a good provider that I have a rule that if I were to not provide for my family, it would be against this rule I've made for myself. And this identity, this label that I've scrapped for myself. And me just thinking about the fact that I am a good provider gives me reward. It reinforces me. And so what happens is when we quote like shift behavior over time, it's we create a label. Like what you want if you want to change someone's behavior is you give them a label that they can live up to and then you align the actions. You do this, you are this type of person and then eventually they begin to do other things because they like the label because the label itself is reinforcing. That was that might have been a little too heavy, but

No, no, no. I totally understand every word of it. Okay.

Okay. So then who is to say that what they're setting for their mind has a good morale to it?

Oh, I above my pay grade. M okay. So that's where my question is.

I don't play in shoods.

So what what happens if from 5 years from now everything that you're teaching your students is something that you don't believe in anymore?

I think it would be unlikely mostly because like I I try to root everything that I teach. If I make statements I I call them um fight me statements. Like if more people know about your stuff uh it is more likely that they will buy it from you. Like no one can buy something from you unless they they have found out about you first. Like these are statements that I will not disagree with in 10 years because they are just factually true. There's nothing like they're fight like fight me. That's what it is, right?

Fight me.

Yeah. Like they're fight me state. No. No. But it's just like they're they're they're they're non-disprovable statements. Like they're true statements. There's nothing that like that would change.

Do you have a mentor? Someone that you still learn from? Um, like the first thought that came to mind when you said that was the market like the S&P 500.

No, no, no. Just the just Yeah. I'm just watching.

Damn, this guy's in all field, dude. Yeah. Just watching candlesticks all day. No. Um, just

that's so funny.

No, just just just feedback. Like I would say like the like my my mentor is feedback. Like what do like you know what do you consume the most of? Like I consume the most of data. I consume the most of what we're doing and how it's working. Um, and that's what I spend my time on.

Fair play that you said consume. Cuz I agree. I feel like whatever anybody consumes, they worship it. So if you said you had to worship one thing,

how do you define worship?

Submitting your life to it.

Okay. And also fearing it like there there's a Okay, let me give you my word. So I would say submitting your life. What does that mean? I know this like we're getting in the

No, no, I love this. You're not going to dole me out, bro. The deeper I get, it's like, bro, I love it. Like I wish that more people did this. Um for worship for me, I I'll I'll lay it down for one word. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

So in the gospel, he's saying, "If you fear me, wisdom will grow. Fruit will will come out of this." Really weird thing to hear from the outside because it seems like a a cult thing, right? Like, "Hey, if you fear me, you're going to do well." But the truth is, if I fear the one who gave me life,

Mhm.

How are my behaviors coming after it? And when I measured myself walking on this earth, not fearing it, my measurements were terrible. I wasn't a great human being. But then once I feared something greater than me,

Mhm.

that gave me life.

Mhm.

My actions fell through. Kind of like, you know, when you said the basketball thing, hey, extend with your hands. I didn't need to have him say, extend your hands because now I'm just following him and I'm watching what his hands are doing. So what who are you or what are you worshiping in your life?

Oh, there's so many things there. So um first off the the the when you acted in a way in fear of God, your behavior changed. Agreed.

So I call that a global reinforcer which is that you have a rule which is that I will follow all the things in this and your adherence to that rule in of itself is reinforcing for you. When you do something and no one else is watching and you know that you're adhering to what you say you believe, that feels good.

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All right, let's get back to the show.

I Yes, it's the. But there's also another part of it. There's the part, okay, so I was talking to Jordan Peterson about this, and he's so on the path of being a man after God's heart, but he says, "I just haven't got to a place where I could let my mouth submit it, or I won't be uh tamed by other people and what they want me to say or how to say it. What I believe in should be dictated off of my actions." And and I appreciate that. But I also see people in the gospel. And by the way, like it's hard for me to bring up the gospel when there's a lot of people that are like, I just don't even want it on the table. But my viewpoint is biblical. So when I look at the gospel and I see a man that has a relationship with God, he never was able to get there mentally by himself. He was never able to get there uh faithfully by himself. He was he got there because he asked. And so there is a master above that says, "Okay, now I'll give you the wisdom to see me." When Jesus was sitting with his disciples, he didn't say, "Whoever has ears could see." He said, "Whoever has ears and want to see, and whoever has ears and wants to hear." Once I walked into this relationship, I watched a very real God activate in my life as so as I feel I believe in him more than the two of you that are sitting right next to me. And I actually see you and you're tangible. But there's a spirit side to it that makes me submit now. Now that I don't want to be weird, but there's a different approach to looking at God versus not just using my eyes. That being said, that is my God. I change everything to it. It changes me as a husband. It changes me as a businessman. Changes me as a friend. What is it that is at the center of your universe that changes you for the outworld?

So, um, this is lovely by the way. Um, no. I'm enjoying this a lot. I I do, by the way, I've never had this much fun already. Like, I am so interested in you and I'm at awe with you, bro. Like, I've watched a lot of your work. What I love about you the most is how truly truly honest you are and the way you speak. I truly feel like I'm sitting with you and I'm talking to you. A lot of people put on a mask, including myself. I'm not just pointing fingers. Sometimes it's hard to take the mask off. And uh I like that your mask off. So, I define authenticity as how you'd behave if you could not get punished.

Okay. So, I I love this. I had a conversation with God about this and I said, "I don't know if I love you because of you and all of your works or that I might go to hell." Mhm. And I came to a conclusion that that's off the table because hell was never really meant for me. How I see it is is an invitation. you could invite me to your house and teach me about your mind and how it works and I could accept that invitation or not. Now, that would be very dumb of me if I have a business and I don't sit with a man who teaches other men how to do well in their own business. That would be my fault if I reject that offer. So, I don't see it as like, oh, I'm doing this cuz I'm punished because a true man of God is is all free for me now because I'm adopted into his family. I see myself above the law. And I know that sounds a little weird. Let me explain it in a in a theory that I have. You have a son, God willing, so or is it a girl?

Can I ask you a quick question before you get into it? Do you ever do something and you feel ashamed of yourself? Used to. Okay. So, you feel no shame? Used to. And I still wrestle with it, but it's not my identity as a Christian. Because in the gospel, it says there is no condemnation. Sorry. There is no condemnation in those who are in Christ Jesus. Why though? Because whatever I did that was wrong is already paid for. That's like the example I was going to give you. If you had a son, you would acknowledge that you did wrong and you'd wish you had done better. Correct. Yes. It wasn't a gotcha question. Yeah. Um, but I don't live in condemnation. I want that very more like you experience guilt. You experience shame. Yes. At some you do something and you're like, I could have Oh, definitely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could There's always room for improvement, right? And so, fundamentally, I just see that as I see guilt as breaking one's own rules. I see shame as breaking someone else's rules. Sometimes you can feel both if you break your own rules and someone else's. Sometimes you do things alone that uh you would be ashamed of but you don't feel guilty afterwards. But sometimes you feel both. But where's the boundaries? And sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Where's the boundaries? Like who's setting the law of what's right or wrong? Because what you're praising is right, which I also agree is right, but that came from Jesus. When he came here, the way that he was speaking shocked the world because they were barbarians and they wanted to kill the neighbor. They wanted eye for eye. So when you're saying leave it better than what it was left at, that's Jesus talking. That's his theories. Those are his perspectives. So if you're outside of it, then I wouldn't even care. I wouldn't care about my neighbor. If I was outside of God's law, you feel like Judaism doesn't have that. Well, he he is Jewish. No, but but it predates him. It predates him. Jesus. Jesus. Nothing predates Jesus. Okay. Well, entering Earth, right? I mean, just from from that perspective. So, he comes through a Jew. I would say that like leaving it better than found. It wouldn't be an entirely Christian notion. And again, Okay, who gave the law to the Jews. And I I was about to say I was like and I will I will not get into a uh into a uh a Christian. You will you will know more than me. And I wasn't even going there. But okay, let's take a religion out. Who Okay, say you're saying I feel bad that I broke somebody else's rules. Yeah. But what if this guy beats his wife? Mhm. That's his rule. Like if she acts up, she smacks the [ __ ] out of her. Well, he would be breaking the government's rules and then he would get consequences from the laws of but his rules are none. So, say we're outside of the country, we're in water that like no like they're outside the raw. So, what I'm saying is we're on a pirate ship to be clear. Yes, we're on a pirate ship and these pirates are ruthless and on this boat he goes, "Hey, if my wife acts up, just smack her across the face." Yeah, obviously I'm not going to do that. Yeah, because it breaks your rules. Yeah, I see what you did there. cuz it breaks my rules. Okay. I was just playing chess and then go ahead. But what I'm saying is what happens when we grow out of the rules that we are now establishing for ourselves. Like for example, the rules that I had for myself 5 years ago, I don't play by. In fact, I'm greatly ashamed by those rules. They no longer served you because they didn't get you weren't reinforced for following them. You know, I think you were asking the same thing that I was kind of asking earlier. It's like who keeps you accountable? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who's the judge? And to me that is like reality. Reality is a judge. Yeah. When I said the market, it's just like if every time I go into a room and I I I hit Ila, for example, I probably won't have many people who work for me. Leila probably also won't like me that much either. And so if I would like my my wife to like me, I probably shouldn't hit her. So the it is a form of like you're kind of working for relationships. You're you want to make sure that you're doing stuff for you to have things. It's it's a what is the term called? An exchange like gratification or like a I mean it is your works. But you also said that you would walk away from something that doesn't provide. I think people do. I think people I didn't say I was going to walk away from the marriage because I have other commitments, right? So I have rules that I follow for myself, which is if I if I say something, I will follow through with it. And if I were the type of person that wasn't that way, then I would no longer like me as much. And so like when you get married, I define commitment as the elimination of alternatives, right? Like you you have eliminated all alternatives besides your wife. That is that is the commitment, right? And so um in terms of who keeps me accountable like there are the rules that I that have served me in my life and I think that I have gathered and I use the rules the the term rules loosely just as if then conditional statements like if I do this this happens um so there are these decision patterns if you will that I've collected I do something that doesn't work out too well probably won't try that next time do something else that works out pretty well which is why I say like my overarching worldview is that I do what I do because I've rewarded for doing so and I've just taken a lot of action over a period of time and seen and failed a lot and when things worked out I was like okay I'll do that more and then I it works three times out of four I'm like why didn't that fourth time work a different conditions okay subnote if this then tweak that right and then it's just a series of of establishing these ways of behaving our personality right in all these different conditions which creates who we are and so I would say that at a fundamental level where I would say my worldview comes against some of the more um ephemeral spiritual worldviews is that I see doing as being. And so if we were to describe someone, one of the first things we say about Jesus, he was a carpenter. We say what he did, right? Um if you say, I want you to be more faithful to your wife, it doesn't mean anything until we describe what you need to do as a result of that. And so you cannot, in my opinion, um you can't be without doing. So I can say like I love my wife but everything I do shows that I hate her. It's like I would say that you hate your wife.

You you ever think that you've ever fallen short with something you've tried to achieve? Oh yeah, of course I've fallen short in things I that I've tried to achieve. So would that make you that or something that just fall short? It wouldn't make me anything. It would just mean that I fell short. What I guess let me take it even back because you said you did a fiveyear thing where you you went and you read obsessed and you and you studied. Hypothetically Jesus does come down. He says I do exist. Mhm. Does your life change? All in. No question. You're all in. Yeah. The the creator the hold on. The creator of the universe Yes. comes on earth here in front of us and says, "I made all of this." demonstrates that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is God. You're asking would I submit to the creator of the universe? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay.

I love this. I I I spent five years struggling with this. The difficulty that I've had with the Christian faith is that I have such respect for it. Yeah. Again, I grew up in it, right? Um that I have such respect for it that I think that 95 that's probably being generous. 99% of people that identify as Christian aren't actually Christian. And so when I asked them, they're like, "Oh, I'm a Christian." I'm like, "Okay, so just to be clear, you believe that um God became man, lived a perfect life, uh, you know, 2,000 years ago and then died for your sins." And, you know, left his teachings here to encourage you to live a life like his. And so that's that's what you think? And they're like, "Well, I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't go." So, and I'm like, "Okay, got it. So, you're not a Christian." And so, I I have such respect for it, deference for it, that like if I were to say I am a Christian, then it means that I believe that Jesus is God and all of my actions would stem from that. Now I was a born again Christian and I did have this for a period of my life and it did change my behavior dramatically. Whatever whatever level of motivation you think I have now, it was 10 times bigger then. And I remember having a desire to make money that was way bigger than what I have now by by orders of magnitude. I remember reading a book called um Kings and Priests um because I originally when I came to the faith I think I was 22ish I think it was right in there. Um, I I was like, "Oh, I guess I should just get into ministry. I should spread the good news. Like, this is amazing. Like, who doesn't want Jesus? This everyone needs this." Um, and I had the the pastor, I think, that I was with at the time, he said, "Hey, read this book." And it was called Kings and Priests. And it basically said that there's different roles for people in the kingdom. And he's like, "You're clearly skilled in this business stuff, and you have a you have a knack for you have a loving for whatever. um you should probably consider like make the gold, donate it to the kingdom, you know, like allow the kingdom to to flourish. And so I was like I was very dedicated during that that season of my life which was like okay, how can I live on 10% donate 90? How can I like every single day I would wake up and make an entire loaf of peanut butter sandwiches so that on my way to work every homeless person that I saw I could roll down the like this sounds silly, right? But I was 22 years old and I um to put this in perspective like I wouldn't take my shirt off during that period when I was at like a pool party because I didn't want the other guys to feel bad. Um again, not in an arrogant way at all. I was like I just don't want I was like they will feel worse. Yeah. I was like they will feel worse and who am I serving here? Am I serving my ego by taking my shirt off? Like what am I You know what I mean? And so, um, I was 100% allin, 100% submitted, um, to to Jesus, to to to God, um, during that season. Um, and there's a number of of of reasons that I that I fall away from that, but, um, I define belief as acting as if. And that seems like it's like a pretend, but it I it I don't mean it like that. It's more that if I were to if an alien comes on Earth doesn't know anything and I were to describe a a true Christian's behavior so they could say ah this is a Christian then they would behave behave as if Jesus was the son of God and died for their sins. And again I'm not saying there is no salvation through acts. I understand that. Um, but if you really when it in in the Bible we say it it's truly changing your heart right which I see from a literal sense as changing your global reinforcer is that when I was in this period all acts I took was pleasing my father and so all I could think about was pleasing him. I cared nothing for man. I cared for a man to please my father, not because I cared about what the other man thought. And so, um, I would say that a large percentage of behaviors that I learned in that period of time is how I act now. And I think the reason that of all world faiths that exist, the one that has always had um a stronger pull for me um that Christianity has been the one that has always had a stronger pull for me um is because it's the only like this is and I do not mean this is no in no way am I trying to insult anyone's faith to be very clear. Like the vast majority of religions when summarized could be determined in could be could be summarized into if you do good things you will go to the good place and if you do bad things you go to the bad place. They are works based faiths. The difficulty with workbased faiths is that when you're 51% good or 49% bad. If I held one more door open for an old lady, I go to eternal bliss and one less door open, then I go to eternal damnation, which also seems like an incredibly man-made construct of you live a finite life and have infinite punishment for it or infinite or infinite good place. So the only only faith that that doesn't have that there's there's two that I would consider. There's Christianity and there's Buddhism. Buddhism is I would say less faith. It's it's considered a faith, but it's different. I would whatever. Um, but because Christianity acknowledges that that's a it's a silly game and you'll never win. You'll never be perfect ever. And so it's only through acknowledgement that you will never succeed at being good enough to merit eternal u paradise that only through admitting that you'll never be good enough um can you gain salvation. That made a lot of sense to me. I was like, "Yeah, this this this is the only way it could actually to me was the only way that made sense." which is I think one of the the the postulates of um CS Lewis in Mere Christianity that that most deeply resonated with me. I was like this makes a lot of sense. Um, and so I know I went down a rabbit hole there, but

No, and by the way, I every single one sentence you said, it's fell in my heart and I have so many things I would like to share with you because this walk that you have is, bro, like I can't tell you, man. Like how many times it's left my lips like your heart posture right now is an honest one. And I'll hang myself out to dry. I know I am known as a Christian, but I've looked up at God and I had some pretty serious questions for him. And you know what? There wasn't one he left off the table. So, there's a few things I want to say off of what you said, and I'll make it very quick. I don't want to be on a tangent. Um, many, many will say, "Lord, Lord, haven't I done this and haven't I done that?" And what does he say to them? He says, "Depart from me. I never knew you." Mhm. Revelations. No, I'll chew. You were lukewarm. Is that the Is that around the same passage? This one's in Matthew. He's basically describing how there's going to be a lot of people that 95 that we talk about, the percent that says, "I'm a Christian." Yeah. But did not care for their neighbors. They didn't care for God's will. Now, you said kings and priests. I want to circle back to another thing in the gospel. There's a parable and this king forgives this man's debt. And the guy runs. He's excited. The first person he goes to is a man who owes him debt. And he goes, "Give me my debt." The guy says, "I don't have it." Now, the king could have sentenced him to death or jail, maybe even both. The guy who didn't have anything, he that man who left the king beat that man senseless. And so, one of the guards goes, "Do you know that guy you let go of? He went after another man." So, they bring him back and he goes, "Why do you not live as if you're free and that you can make others free?" That is where I'm from. When I realized, like you realize that, well, well, hold on. Am I doing this for me or am I doing this for everybody else? Where I'm positioned now is as I get to do it, I know who I really am. Only you know who you really are. We could turn on these cameras all day and we could say the finest things and we could put it in the most beautiful ways and people could be set back, but we could also be wolves in sheep's clothing. Now that being said, I want to ask you a question. You said that you studied it, but there is a few things I would like to go like handinhand with you. Not because of this podcast, bro. just because I really do think that you and I, I pray, are going to be great friends. But as much as I would be around you and probably ask you for wisdom to be a better businessman, I I pray that you'd feel comfortable with me to to ask me things about the gospel or in a spiritual sense. So, I'm not here to to shame or point or say my life is better than yours. I mean, if we're counting it from an earthly perspective, you're wildly whipping my ass over here, bro. So, it's not like that at all. What is a what was one thing that was hard for you to wrestle with when it comes to really believing that there is an actual man named Jesus that died for us? I would say that um there are there are two I would say there are many um but I would say the two largest are I have a hard I just I have a hard time believing that the infinite creator of the universe came on earth 2,000 years ago and died for our sins and then rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. I just have there's just it's very difficult for me to believe it. And I like I went to a Christian therapist uh during this period of time cuz it was such a such a struggle for me. And after a handful of sessions, um she looked at me and she said, "Alex, I think you just need to make a decision." And it was sounds like she's trying to wrap it up. Yeah. She was like she was like, "I that's a terrible thing for a therapist. I am not getting paid enough. Um, hey buddy, time's up. Figure it out. And so, and so she was like, "Well, which one do you really believe in your heart of hearts?" And I was like, "In my heart of hearts, I just don't believe it." I was like, "I really wish I did."

Dude, I love that you said that. Uh, all right, I'm going to bring up another verse. There was a Lazarus dead, homeboy. Homeboy. Right. Five days for that miracle to happen. Right. Okay. We got the disciples. They're pissed. Jesus, our feet hurt. We're exhausted. He's always telling them, "Hold up, is coming." There's one miracle in the Bible that happens like this. Mhm. You know who it was? There was a man that came up to Jesus and says, "I don't believe this." Mhm. Could you give me the faith to believe it? Mhm. Then Jesus bestows him faith. Mhm. Jesus also says that I am the vine and you are the fruit. Apart from me, we can't do anything. So when you say I believe, when you were walking with Jesus, did you ever ask him, hey, like I I'm seeing this on the table. My eyes are looking at it. You say, whoever has eyes and wants to see and I want to see. Yeah. Did you find yourself in a position where you just didn't want to see it? No, I think I desperately wanted to see. Desperately wanted to see. Yeah. I mean, it was a very arduous search for many years. So, okay. Now, I have follow-up questions. You're very analytical. So, everything you see, you study it. So, I'm assuming when you say uh the crucifixion to me, it's hard to believe. Mhm. Did Did you by any chance like look at like Caesar was in his time, right? He had like historical documentation and Yeah. There's 25,000 of Jesus. Yeah. No, like the case for Christ, which you I don't know if you've read that. It's a awesome No, I haven't read it. Oh, it's a really it's it's um the premise is there's an atheist um trial attorney who's really famous and he goes to um disprove Christ. And so he goes on this search to look at the historical documents and disprove it and um makes a case against Christ. But in the process of making the case against Christ, he becomes a believer. Um and so I read his book and I was like, I get all of this. I just still don't believe. Is it is it a I'm so sorry. Is it an inner feeling thing? And I know that you're very much not about feelings. No, it's not that I'm not about feelings. I think it's it's it's it's a question of do these feelings serve me? How do I translate these feelings into what I'm going to do? And do those actions increase the likelihood that what I want to have happen is going to happen. I'm I'm translating this into like very literal terms because otherwise I say like, you know, if it just feels good, I do. It's just like that doesn't mean anything to me. So that's why that's why I talk this way in this very literal sense, but it's so that there's no miscommunication when I'm saying it. Totally. Totally. And I don't even mean that way. I mean in the way of like that that absolute cuz you were a Christian for a few years and you're saying your mom is probably about a year. Okay. Okay. So Oh, that's why I'm saying this has to be 24 months. You didn't hit the threshold. You turned. You turned. Yeah. Yeah. But that interlocking feeling cuz I think like I did not grow up Christian and not have before. No, I did not. I did not. And I found faith in my early 20s. I feel like the seed was planted when I was 16, but it took me time, right? And for me, what kept me for a long time, even though I had people in my life that showed me that proof, was that inner knowing of truly believing what Jesus did, that Jesus is real and that he is God, there was that like really understanding. And so, it wasn't until I mean, that's a different story. So, I I was wondering where you stood if that's kind of how it was where you felt like maybe there wasn't a point for you where you ever really truly surrendered yourself to Jesus. Oh, no. I 100% surrendered. I was all in. Yeah. There was no question. I was a 100% believer through and through. So, what was it? Okay, but hold on. To me, it's I'm having a hard time understanding that. How could you be 100% but at the same time doubt Jesus's existence? I would say um one I think that that many Christians speak about their doubts while they are still believers. What is your form of Christianity? So we don't lose each other here. Evangelical. No, no. I mean, what makes a man a Christian man? Oh. Oh. Oh. Um that he would act in accordance to God's wishes. That's not at all what the gospel describes. Cuz if that was the case, we're all cooked. I'm again I'm describing it the way that I would describe it now. Got it. If you were to ask me then I would say that his heart has been transformed by Christ and he's given his life to the Lord. Right. And he's completely submitted and Jesus is his king. I think that being a Christian is believing in Jesus. That's it. Sure. So falling short is not is a part of the process I think. And this is where like when I said I had two things, right? There's lots of small ones. It's like, okay, of all the planets on the Earth, is there a Jesus in in Neptune's 27 that also showed up there to like save all the, you know, Ewoks or whatever? I don't know. Um I don't know either. Yeah. Right. Um I'm not against that. No. No. Yeah. I mean, that was that was my People get mad at me for saying that, but I'm like, dude, there's no way he was just waiting around for a billion years, trillions of years, and he's like, "All right, now humans are like, you know what? I mean, like, it's my big pitch." Yeah. He was definitely creating things before that. Yeah. Um but the so I described the the false binary that uh axe creates which is that you could be 51% good 49% bad and then it creates this this this area right in the middle that one more action would have taken you to either forever bad or forever good right so I think to the same degree belief has the same continuum and false binary which is like you either believe or you don't believe I believe that belief is a continuum it's how hard do you believe how much do you believe so Okay. Where where did your belief cease to stop? Like cuz you saying I was all in. So was there a point in your life? I say that I was all the way here and then over time it eroded until eventually I went through more and more struggles talked to this person for I know read more and more books and then eventually was like all right I guess I just don't believe. But in that process you did believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again. Yeah. at one point and then then you start a feeling like wait a second this doesn't and again and I want like I do not espouse like or or or um preach my worldview at all like I almost reluctantly which is what I said at the very beginning of this podcast with you is like I people see that I'm successful by whatever measure you materially successful to a degree. Um, I'm in relatively good shape. Um, I have a good, you know, relatively good marriage. Um, and they see that and they're like, "Tell me what you think about the world." And I would say, like, if whatever you're doing is working for you, by all means, please keep doing that. I only share what what my my path for the people who it it didn't work as well for. Um, I don't even think you should be ashamed of that. Well, less shame, more like I just I don't like I'm not I'm not saying follow me and I'm not saying like do what I did. I'm saying this is what I did. Do whatever you want and this is why I'm a big believer in no shoods. Like I'm not saying you should do this or shouldn't do that. I'm saying this is what I did. That's all. Do do you feel because you help so many people in business that you feel like when you speak about spirituality or your faith that you feel like because that's your brand that people pick up their like whatever they're doing and follow you. Do you feel like you get uncomfortable speaking about things like this because you don't want to slap it as if you are hey like telling them and we're not getting that vibe from you at all. I don't consider myself an authority. Yeah. I I You hear that boys? Extra lunch break tonight. No, like I and I've never really purported to be one. Um I I'm decent at breaking down concepts and trying to define terms in ways that I understand them. And typically if I define things in the way I understand them, other people understand them too. Which is why like even attacking attacking I use it in a literal um breaking down like uh belief. Yeah. Um, it's like okay well what does belief mean? Yeah. How do I believe? What does that mean? Like really? Yeah. Show me belief. I had this conversation with uh with another genius like and by the way like I you know what I find fascinating? The smarter person that I sit down with, the more complex we're we're we're very choosy with our words, which is so funny cuz you meet a dumb person just throwing out all the words and you're like my man stick to one thing, dude. God even talks about that. A babbling fool. So yeah. So, by the way, we appreciate your presence. Like, we really do. And and there's a lot of wisdom to be learned from. Uh, so we don't ever take it in the way that you you were worried about it at all. Like, zero. Um, and uh, sorry, I I find it f. But belief, okay, belief to me is a lot of people think that it's like certainty. Like, belief to me is weighing out what I have in front of me. and knowing okay this is where my faith belongs to so I believe that God exists but I can't sit across from you and prove his existence but I could examine through the patterns of this world to me the most peaceful and joyful not need humans I've ever met were ones who had Christ at the center of their life agree 100% okay so let's dissect that if that's true don't you think there's thousand% agree. Why do you think I started getting into it? So, why do you think I pursued the path? If if that's the case, you feel that, then wouldn't you say that it's not that you didn't find God, it's the sad truth is you just didn't find God's people, man. And I think that's totally true because um I would say that I think when I I'm trying to think when did I come I think I came across somewhere. I think it was Nashville. I could be wrong. Um, but when I went back to Baltimore, which is where I was from, and then it ultimately worked, I wasn't really plugged into any real call it Christian community. So, I was very much alone for that most that whole period. Um, and I just basically spent my time like in books trying to like keep my faith muscle strong. Yeah. Um, and I think again I have hundreds of tiny things and I also it's like I even there's a lot of times where I don't even want to bring up the doubts that I have because if like if it if it leads one person astray, I don't want to be the cause of that. I like Dude, you you're you're a Christian. I hate to say this to you, my man, but you you might be more Christian than me, dude. He's wiping down tables, not taking his shirt off, man. His body I wouldn't own a shirt. I would be everywhere. I would say that the way I behave now I do take my shirt off sometimes and so you know well, I'm not a Christian anymore. Yeah. Yeah. But it's funny that even when we do that is so you describe it by actions right the what to know that I was a Christian by what I do. Yes. Because you shall know them by their fruit. If I taste your fruit if I walk around but that's not there's so many clips there. Dang it, bro. Dang it. Okay. If I tasted the fruit from your garden, I feel like that's even worse. Every man produces fruit. Okay. Every woman produces fruit and you you you receive them and you eat them. Okay. I just Okay, I'm just going to move on. But do you observe what I do? Yeah. Yes. If if I hang out with you, the fruits that I'm going to get from you as a businessman, bro, I'm not going to get it from hanging out with my boy smoking weed on the couch playing Fortnite. If I hang out with you for one day, one month, one year, it's all going to change. Why? Because when iron sharpens iron, something comes out of it sharper or duller. It's never going to be just the same as it is. So if I hang out with you, I'm going to come out being like, "Wow, I feel really good about my business." Okay, that being said, if you don't hang out with real Christians, then Christ itself would diminish. That's why it's way worse for a man to wield the name Christian and not act like Christlike. And then when you said, "But we're basing it off of our acts." I I understand that's like where everybody's like even I ask Christians all that why are you going to heaven? They go oh because I'm a good guy. I do this and right that's we agree that's not like that's not how it works exactly within the tenant of the Christian faith. Yes. Yes. Through the worldview that I have the only way you can know whether someone believes something is how they behave. Amen. And then of course it's like well that's your personal relationship with Christ only you're going to know. Fine. Like basically I disagree with that and a lot of people say that. Sure. So, like there's a lot of people that claim with their mouth a lot of things, but they're not, bro. Yeah. Their actions don't mean reality. So, I do base people off of their actions on what their actual beliefs are. Yeah. I we agree 100% on that. Well, what's interesting about what you said, you know, you said you were pretty alone during that season, and I just watched my pastor's sermon this past week. Maybe this was for you. I don't know. But it's the same thing back to the fruits, right? So, your faith is a seed. When God gives you, when he puts the Holy Spirit in you for the first time when you're a new believer, it's like a seed. And the seed is brand new. Now, the Holy Spirit's in you, but what are you going to do with it? Not because of your own works, but are you going to surround yourself with good soil, with sunlight, with water, you're going to feed the seed so that it can flourish versus, right, if it's in a bad environment, it's going to die and it's not going to go anywhere. But from his his perspective on what he shared, he did do that in in the way where he says, "I was trying to keep that muscle growing and he was really a community of people." That's the one thing and that was and and a thousand% also in terms of my my current worldview. Um like if you want to change someone's behavior, change their environment, right? Right. like um if I for example went to let's say I I moved into a town where there's 100% true Christians is the only people that live in this town. Let's just imagine this hypothetical and I have no way of reaching of leaving for whatever reason. The likelihood that I would become a Christian or that I would selfidentify as a Christian I think would go up dramatically. But then I get into the question of like okay well if whether I move into that uh environment or not or I get born into that environment or whatever. Um that has a huge weight on whether I am eternally damned or eternally in salvation. Um, and that brings up a question of free will that again I would say that I like All right. Well, throw it. Um, I I actually have a hard time with free will because free will presupposes that we're at 100% control of all of our actions. And you can prove that that's not true because you can change people's behavior by moving and and manipulating the variables in their environment. And so I think there's often times the illusion of choice more than there is the actuality of choice. And so even if we agree that a 1% change can occur in someone's behavior through influence, then it means that it's just a gradient, which means that there is a chance that we have 100% control. And if you have 100% control of someone's behavior, then they do not have free will. And so when you get into this argument of like, okay, well, okay, if I do believe we can influence, if you can influence, you control. If you can control then the whole concept around this choice for eternal salvation might not be as individual as we as we have framed it to be.

May I dissect that backwards? Yeah. What if you're freeing Christ? And that way when you are freeing Christ, you'll be able to see when people are manipulating you. For example, you'll be able to see what the world could posture towards your heart. I think every man is either Cain or Abel. I think one is with the world and one was with God. And so that there's only two doors. And a lot of people think there's multiple doors. But the truth is God made two doors. It's either heaven or hell. But what the devil did is multiplied many doors and made you feel like you had the option of choosing which one you want to go to. For you, it's business. For me, it's lust. But when we open up that door, it's hell. Why? Because we chose something that we thought is greater than God. And so then when we submit ourselves and our own knowing. So when he says deny yourself that means deny everything that you think that you know. Mhm. And when he says deny yourself it even for example my mom says you should be proud you're Assyrian. And I said being Assyrian is great but I must deny even my Assyrian roots. So I could stand naked before God and with a clean slate and a clean pallet and say what is it that you called me to be? And through that is where freedom which he promises obtains. But you were saying that freedom of choice is not true. I I agree. But they chose to be a slave to that when I chose to serve God. So now the question you said I want to even bring it back to you saying the place that you you're at. For example, if I was born in the Middle East, I might be Muslim. Yeah. Fair to that. I would say what the gospel says, I will measure them for what they know. Right? Which which is tough because that gets pretty close to I'll measure them if they're a good person. What does that mean? So we take our Amazonian tribe that's never heard anything about Jesus. Yeah. Right. They die. Yeah. God measures them based on what? What they know, which is zero. That's not true. So let me give you an example. If they don't know anything, then they're just sitting paralyzed looking at the sky. That's interesting. Will they know the world? Well, no. I mean,

Give an example for you right now. If you are leaving a place better than what it is, you are acting Christlike.

So, if you did not know who Christ is and then reject Christ, that's different than a man receiving it and then rejecting it versus somebody who's never received it and then never rejected it. So, I think that my God's merciful enough to know that this man in the jungle didn't have Clifton Stewart come and throw out a podcast for him to know. Oh, is that a Christian podcast for them to know? But what he did see while he was down there with his little mud pallet. He said, "Hey, when it was raining, he invited his neighbors to come here." But that sounds like he's getting measured by his axe. I think he's being measured by what he what he had. I think that's different. But I still I would still say like that's measuring by X or his his.

Would you say it's measured on his knowledge of Christ? No, we assume it's zero for the for the example. I just think it's it. We can't limit God. So if we say, "Hey, God picks and chooses who's going." That's why I always tell people when like a lot of Christians like to throw out who's going to be saved and who's not going to be saved. And I could not. Oh my God. Every time we're in the parking lot of a church sermon and they're like, "That guy's going to hell. That guy's going to heaven." And I'm just like, "Yo, my man, that's not how it works."

Billy Graham has this funny interview. It was right when the president got in trouble for cheating on his wife and but he was he still sat there at the table. And so they pulled him aside. They go, "Hey, how could you sit with a man who behaves like that?" He leans over. He says, "The father judges, Jesus loves, the spirit comforts." We were asked to act like Jesus, but everybody's trying to do all three. Judging is like falling on your own sword. When you look at somebody and judge, you're truly wielding something that doesn't belong to you.

Like for example, if I look at a man and be like, "How could My mom used to always say this? This is a perfect example. Don't let God put you in a position for you to know the question you don't want to answer." Like for example, we look at somebody who's a drug addict in the street. Why would this guy throw away his life and do this? My my my mom would say, "Don't put don't let God put you in that man's shoes for you to feel."

Is she Christian? Yes. Yeah. She's very Christian. I was like, "No, super atheist." Is your whole family Christian? Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Like genuine Christian? Yeah. like uh well, you know, they're the 5%, not the 95. They are with me, but they've always put God first.

But when I kind of grew up as a man and I said, "Hey, you know, we try so hard with our business. We try so hard with our relationships. And I think we could try harder with Christ. I think we could read a little bit more. I think we could, you know, submit our life a little bit more." And dude, none of them rejected it. They all jumped on it. So, I do believe that they are actually the real Christians.

But I think the difference between a real Christian and a fake Christian is this, and this is just my perspective. Again, I'm not a teacher either. Um, I think one is is just Cain and Abel, man. One is like, God, there's nothing that I could do that's good enough for you. And the other one's like, piss off. Like, I've done as much as I can. You like, and I think that's the posture of a heart of a real Christian man.

If any Christian man goes up to God and starts listing what he's done for God, he's not a Christian. If you're not standing before God and truly being in awe for what he's done. If you open up the book to look for yourself, you're not a Christian. If you open up the book to look for Jesus, you're Christian. That's kind of like, but again, who am I to call? You know what I mean? Like cuz my behavior 10 years ago, if I looked at that man, I'd be like pagan. This guy wasn't a Christian.

This guy's for sure gone to hell. And 10 years ago, you weren't a Christian the way you are now. Correct. I was. I was walking around calling myself a Christian. But you wouldn't But you were. I was the guy that you bumped into that made you run away from the faith. But like but uh but you get but but by your definition would you say that you were a Christian then? I would say I was the 95 what you said. Right? So so many of you will say you knew me, right? But you didn't. That's when I was walking around. Right?

So kind of interesting. So like you've only how many so how when is it that you recommitted your life to Christ? See, I wouldn't even want to say recommitted. It's kind of like a relationship with your wife, right? There's a time where she's like just giving you inadequate relationship. Okay. Amount, you know, like, and then there's she's like, "Wow, I really realize what I have and I'm going to step up and really show Alex how much I love him." Same person. One's eyes were opened.

So, I always loved God and I always chase God, but God had to put me in a hole for me to have nothing but him. And then I realized I'm like, "Oh, wow. This is so much more peaceful." Actually, that's actually something I want to bring up to you. When I was on impulsive, it was a dream. I I couldn't believe it. Like, it was everything my heart desired. I was on stages performing, hanging out with my friends, making money, but I didn't have any peace. Like, zero. And that shocked me cuz I was like, "Dude, how did I have more peace flipping burgers at Five Guys than I do now? Did not make sense."

And I tried to calculate it, try to see the patterns, watched videos on how people are talking, listened to Tony Robbins, looking at all these things, and then I brought it to God. And I said, "Well, why? I don't understand. Why is this guy more peaceful than this guy? This guy's broke and has nothing going on for him. And this guy's very successful." And God made it very clear. This man thought about me more. This man thought about God. I think I think Jesus is life and life more abundantly.

Now when I look at myself, I don't see myself as a Christian or a non-Christian. I see myself as a cup. One was kind of empty, running dry, and Jesus kept having to refill it. If you were the 95% though, in that season, calling yourself a Christian but not really acting as one. Yeah, like we said earlier, if you had died then, not not now, right? Or in the future, assuming behavior stays the same, etc. Um, where do you think you would have gone then? I think God is all knowing. So, I think that it's his right to judge. On I don't know how it how it plays out.

But based on what we were saying earlier, if the 95% most of them would be people he'd be like, it's hard. It's hard because I see it as kind of like a seed that was planted but just wasn't producing fruit. It was there. It's kind of like that, right? It didn't produce fruit, but it started producing fruit. You can see how I would say like from a pure like us talking about a perspective. It's playing both sides. I would say that I would go to hell. Yeah.

You know what it reminds me of? I would say I would agree with you from your perspective. Yeah. I would agree with you after hanging out with you for an hour. For sure. Going from your from your worldview. If that if your worldview is true in that period, I would agree. And that's that would be the perspective that I had as a Christian. The only reason I agree with that and and it's hard for me to say that cuz it's like scary. I just threw myself hypothetically. Dude, the comments are going to go nuts. Yeah, right. Oh, bro, they do. All the I stopped I stopped caring about that a long time ago because it was eating me up. It was changing how I felt.

Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem and there was one time where he gets really mad and he curses down a fig tree. Do you remember this? And I I dude I used to giggle at this all the time cuz I used to look at it from a comedic standpoint. I'm like my man turned two fish into 45 and he's getting pissed at a tree and submitting it down to the ground. And all of his disciples are in the back be like, "Yo, Jesus, you good, bro? What's going on? Why are you so angry?" You know, but I figured out why he was angry.

When he ruffled his fingers through the leaves of the fig tree, there was no produced fruit. And he curses the fig tree all the way down to the ground and it dies. Then he goes to Jerusalem where it is mirrored as a priest as a fig tree and producing fruit is spiritual. So that was dressed like the Pharisees. A lot of people would be dressed as if they have a lot of fruit, right? Which I believe you've bumped into. And then when you go and you taste their fruit and you're like, "Yo, this is whack." After eating enough whack fruit, you're going to start believing that the source is whack.

I actually didn't fall away because of meeting false Christians. Um I think I could recognize that pretty pretty easily. I came because of true Christians and I would say that I left because of my own beliefs and struggles that I had to to in earnest say that I believed 100%. And I think you said something earlier about people think belief is certainty. Um that to me like certainty would be 100% belief and then there is like high conviction which would be like 90% belief. And I think that people sit on this spectrum.

And I think part of the reason that I've had difficulty with the Christian faith, and this is the second point, is that if you can have works that are 100 to zero, uh, in terms of good guy, bad guy, and if you're at 49 or 51, to the same degree belief can be on that same continuum. And to what degree, like when do when when have you known God enough? How much belief is enough to go to heaven? A belief worth changing for? I don't know what that means. Simon, who was renamed Peter, got crucified upside down. I would assume he really believed. Yeah, I'd agree.

And I think that, you know, there's Assyrians recently that when they're on their knees with swords on them and they say, "Hey, say denounce Jesus or we'll cut your head off." And they say, "No." To me, that's belief. I don't believe it in a spectrum of like the 95 or five or four or five. I think belief is kind of like love. It's it's ever growing, but it's not measured within numbers. So this is the and this I would say fundamentally we we get into the difficulty that I have in general, which is you see it in numbers. Well, not to the numbers, but just like when we define words in big terms and we make equivalencies, it's like I, you know, belief is love. It's like all of a sudden it's like we're in this this world of all these words that we're.

Could you measure love? Well, just how much are you willing to do to maintain something? If I love, if you love, like what are you willing to give, sacrifice in order to keep something? So like for example, that's how I feel about Jesus. Like you willing to give everything, your life. They're soldiers who love their country and are willing to give everything their life for it. So I would say that they love their country. I love my wife. I'm willing to give my life for my wife.

Okay. So you just ran into a a place where you're like, "Oh, I just don't believe it at the level." Right? And do I do I like people less than my wife? Yes. That I'm willing to give something for? Yes. Am I willing to give my life for? No. But there are things and people that I'm willing to give my life for. And so again, I do believe that there is a continuum that we can describe. Um, and I think that it makes it significantly more convenient to chunk up to vague language. Um, because you'll you'll get amens and nods in the audience um because it sounds good, you know? Um, but I I live in defining the amorphous. Like this is what I spend my time doing. And I believe that all things we can translate into like what does this mean? Like if I say, you know, you look at your kid, you're like, I need you to love her. He doesn't know what that means or she doesn't know what that means. The first time they hear it, you have to then describe what love is and you describe it in actions. And then eventually you say the word love and it's just like dribbling and basketball. It means all of these behaviors.

Now, I measure love by how much I'm willing to give up to maintain something. If a friend moves away from close by, let's say I'm friends with my neighbor, he moves far away. If I stay in touch with that friend, I'm willing to basically incur more cost in order to in order to maintain that relationship. I love that or like that friend more. I see it as the same continuum. Um, whereas if they move away and I'm not willing to be inconvenienced anymore, then I don't like them that much. If they're here, it costs me less and so I'm willing to do it. And so I think again, all of this sits on a continuum of how much I'm willing to give in order to maintain something. And if you're willing to give up your life in order to maintain your relationship with Christ, then you I would say you willing to give everything. And that's amazing. Um, and so I think love, if we're using love as belief, but I don't necessarily think they're equivalent. I think acting as if would be belief. Um, then there is a spectrum. And this is where I struggled.

I just meant the measurement. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, and but those those are both continuums. The love continuum, the belief continuum. And people sit on different ones for different things. Um, like I'll give you the the most basic example. Um, there's probably a country on earth that if I said, you know, um Karakas, right? It's the capital of uh of Brazil, right? Or it's the capital of Venezuela. Maybe the Venezuela one. You're like, "Okay, I think that I think that is the capital of Venezuela." And I'd be like, "If you get it wrong, she dies." No. How How much do you believe that? Like, you're like, "I think it's that." It's like, "Yeah, how much?" Are you willing to bet everything you have on it? Probably not. But you you're willing to say, "I I think it's that." And so there are degrees of belief. And I think the same exists here. And this is a I'm saying and and like I struggle with this because like I, I don't want to make a convincing argument. No. No. What you're saying is is very very I like do whatever you're doing. No. It makes total sense. I agree. I I 100% agree with what you're saying. I think that's why there's a lot of fake Christians because they get up to that point where you're like, would you die for it? Yeah. And not even Dude, Dude, there's a lot of people that say that they would die for Christ when they don't even live for Christ. Sure. It's so much. Bar by the way. Dude, you just made that clip so much better. And then it cuts to me eating his fruit. I'm like, "Damn, I didn't want that in the video." But I think that's the truth of it.

And so I would actually like to push back on you. And this is my first push back on you. I don't believe that you believed in Jesus with all your heart. I think that you are wrong. I'd like to build a relationship with you off of this and sit with you and if you would let me. Pray with you on this. And I know that's very uncomfortable because you kind of like just let it go. But I I love you, dude. And and I know that we just met, but I really care about you and I and I care about your mission. But if I had to listen to your words or Christ's words, I would assume his is. I would tell you to listen to Christ. So when Jesus says that the good works that I start in you, I will finish. And so he says there that if you are a Christian, you can't fade away off of being a Christian. And if that is the case, then I am already saved. I've been Yeah. Then then I am already saved. If that is true. And my mother will be thrilled.

Can I put uh a a hope and a prayer out there? Sure. Dude, I like I envision and I and I'm going to be praying on my knees every day for this, but I pray that there is an encounter that you have, bro, that is mathematically it's above your understanding. Like it's so far past measurement that it's no need for the the conversation of if or not. Um, yeah, it's all becoming Paul. Yeah, man. And dude, I just want to let you know like I've had the privilege of sitting down with a lot of cool people and this man this conversation is you you have me wanting to go back and meditate and and and assess myself. God says always be ready to have a good answer and you have such a thought out perspective. I did not come prepared enough to to dish back to you what I feel is worthy enough for you to ponder. So, the only thing I could do is petition a prayer. Well done, man. You got me. Oh, no. No. I'm giving up my faith now. I would have given my life during that period of time for Christ. I still think you're on the journey, man. Don't Don't side question me. I know you're still on the journey, bro. You know why I know you're still on the journey? Because I think you're just an honest man. And I think a I think God deals with honest men. I think the fact that you could sit here and be like, "No, no, no. I fleshed this out." I think the truth is one day all knees are going to be bowing willing or non-willing. And I think when me and you are going to be sitting there, we're going to be looking at him. I think that in your brain, you're going to be like, "Oh, I missed a piece, not angry at him." And I think that's the difference between you and a lot of people that I I I not that I give up on because I never want to give up on a neighbor, but I do know that when I was in a place where my questions weren't being met, I was honest and I dude, I had those questions of the God. What? This guy's four years old. Never prayed to you. Never got baptized. Now he's burning in hell. Oh. Oh, hell is eternal. So even if I do reject you, it's forever and always. I had the tough questions, but my God had the tough answers. I I tell people this. Don't go to God and tell him how big your problems are. Show your problems how big your God is. And And I want Dude, when I look at you, I don't see a problem. I see an opportunity. I see like a mountain, bro. And Jesus did tell me, you could say, you could tell this mountain to get up and move. And I am sitting in front of the world. And it might be even embarrassing myself, but I want you next to me in the kingdom, bro. Because dude, there's there's people that I sit next to that claim that they're good people, but they don't do half the things that you do. Not saying that it's work-based, but I'm saying that I think your belief is there, but who said it for you is not there. Every word, every position, every motive is Christ-centered, which means, you know, how you said nobody has free will. I agree. And guess what? You're willing off of his will. You ain't willing off of all these other religions wills. I could see Christ in you without you even seeing Christ in you. And so I when you said would that kid die if he died in that place? Would he go to heaven or hell? Equivalently, would you if you died go to heaven or hell? I won't know. Cuz I don't know what God did to you. All I can say is this. When Moses stood in front of Pharaoh, God used Pharaoh and Moses, but God only knew Mo uh Moses. And so I I don't want you to harden your heart towards God. I don't think I have. Well, all your muscles are. No, I don't like and I I would say that I've I've strong beliefs loosely held, right? And so strong beliefs loosely held. Wow, that is a term. Um, strong beliefs loosely held. So strong beliefs that could sway if something. I have to like the nature of my life is learning and I define learning as new condition change, sorry, new condition, um, same condition, new behavior. And so like if I'm if I receive new information, the conditions have changed and I can change my behavior, which obviously I think the internet has tons of issues with anyone changing anything. But I think that I remember I remember I went back um home a few years after I like got in my entrepreneur journey, etc. And I I went to someone who was close to me at the time, and they were like, "You've changed." And I remember they they said it as an insult. Um, and I remember pausing for this moment. I was like, "You haven't." And it was just this very interesting exchange that I had. And then I was just like, "Yeah, I want to be the one who changes." And so I have no and and this is why I think language is so important is because people make these I am statements. I am this type of person. I am a I am a Christian. I am organized. I'm a control freak. I'm whatever. And they give themselves these labels. And because we want to be consistent, right? Consistent commitment, you know, uh consistency bias. Like we want to appear as as people who are the same because it's it's deemed a good quality. No one likes people who are changing and erratic because they're hard to trust. Yeah. Um, but the thing is is that we have to be willing to change when when conditions change. Like I had different assumptions when I started when I started a business versus what I have now. And some of those were disproven. And so I had to change the way I acted in order to get where get to where I wanted to go. Yeah. And so all that to say, you asked, you know, halfway through the pod, you know, if if Jesus came on earth, like what would you do? I'd be like bow and worship. If the if the creator of the universe came down, of course I would. Right? The difficulty that I've had with simply believing that it happened, not that. And when we ask again on that continuum, do I do I 10% believe? Yeah, 10% believe. I don't think I believe enough. By the way, you're going to have a bone to pick with Jesus. Oh, he don't like my terms, huh?