Transcription
You know, so I know this is our first time doing video uh work on these podcasts, but there was a there was a topic we talked about quite a long time ago and it was the Madonna complex and I thought it might be really good for us to revisit that old idea.
Uh, it's and it is an old idea from from Freud, but I'm sure that humanity has at some level been aware of it for over a thousand years.
Humanity as in, as in, because I've never been aware of it, right? But I'm sure there have been other people around the world who've been aware or observed that there are situations or relationships where a man, um, is very excited about somebody sexually, so long as he doesn't respect them. And then once he begins respecting them as a human being and he sees how noble their character is, how kind, how loving, how full of integrity they are, then he has a hard time having sex with them.
And there are variations on this theme, you know, where, but that's just just to reiterate the one idea is I'm dating a woman and I'm loving the sex and it's amazing. And then once I start seeing who she is and that she's kind, I would be then turned off by that or that is with some guys. Cuz for me, I feel like now, I don't know if that's just from having these conversations with you. Like I feel like I'd love it if she's a cool person.
If she was kind, if she was kind and all that, all of that. Yeah, you would. And I, and there's a reason for that that I want to revisit or take a look at again, um, maybe later in this, but I want to explain that it's really common for there to be some sort of a divide between my sexuality and my spirituality.
And so my spirituality may have all kinds of values like kindness, compassion, love. Uh, I value intelligence. I value loyalty. I value all these other things. But then there's that party girl who's just really a hoot on the weekends and she is so fun because it's all, um, without commitment and she's liberated and wild and and free and it just and and she promotes that those feelings in me and I can be myself in a way I never could with that girl I met at church.
Yeah. So there's there's that spiritual values that I have which is the bedrock of all spirituality, my values, and then there's, you know, what really excites me sexually and I, you know, I can give examples of this if if that would help.
Yeah. So I'm kind of like, so you're saying a guy who's going to church, it's like I value this nun kind of of a woman who's very plain, but then they really want the wild thing. They.
Well, it's actually more insidious. And I, I don't. And I.
You're saying that I'm not into this because I anti-religion?
No, I because I think there are people who take some pride in not being particularly religious who actually have the same phenomenon because, uh, this way of thinking, this, if you will, this irrational belief that a woman can't be both of a sterling character and be sexy as hell. There are people who have that belief whether they're religious or not.
And I.
So, really quick, that's what it is. It's people do not believe that a woman could be both of those things.
Yes.
Or, you know, we could go on the women's side too later, but as a guy, it's like me believing me not believing that this wild sexy woman could be also kind or this kind woman could be wild and sexy. That's where the disconnect comes in.
Right. And there is, you're quite right. I'm pointing out there is a a male version of this where it's all in his head. But there's also a female analog that a lot of people aren't aware of. So, we should talk about that. And the one I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of a client from long ago, and he wasn't a religious person until he got serious about his wild crazy girlfriend.
Okay?
And then he gets serious about, uh, the girlfriend and they end up getting married, having a child. And between the marriage, the pregnancy and the childbirth, all of a sudden he becomes a conservative overnight. He goes back to the religion of his youth, which he had let go of long before. And he starts practicing his faith. And but he can't very well have the same freedom that he had when he was this younger version of himself with this very attractive woman he found sexually alluring.
But why did he go to become a conservative? Was that because he thought now that I'm being serious I have to go back to church or was that his wife or his.
Well, he wasn't a Christian so it wasn't church and.
Uh, this individual happened to be Muslim, but it could be, uh, somebody of any faith, or of no faith. It's just that when people sometimes encounter concepts like childbirth, pregnancy, and religion, and commitment of any kind, uh, all of a sudden this is getting real.
Yeah.
And and then they go back to the only foundation they have for organizing their ethical ideas.
And that foundation, you know, I don't know exactly what your background is, but let's say.
Catholic.
Okay. So it would perhaps go back to, uh, your Catholic background and your values you were taught before you were even, uh, of the age of puberty.
Yeah. Which were nothing because Catholicism is like very boring and I got nothing out of it aside from it's a bore. It tired me. I mean, I I learned nothing from it except that adults are boring.
I I do think there's more to it than that for all of us because it's I think religion is the in the air around all of us on this planet. We all catch certain values and certain ways of treating people. So, if you were very sexually freed up with this wild, crazy new girlfriend who was equally freed up and the two of you were having a great time sexually, that might not be the same way you present yourselves, say 6 months later when you take her home to meet mother.
You might be toning it down significantly.
Yeah.
And you wouldn't probably be advertising to your parents, well, I'm with her for obvious reasons. She's totally hot.
Yeah.
And Oh my god, Dad. I got to tell you what she's like in bed. It's so amazing. You know, I've never had any sex like this in my life.
And it's not like you're going to start referencing Catholicism, you know, at that point.
Yeah. And so there's for all of us, you know, even if we've let go of religion, deliberately and intentionally and we've embraced our sexual liberty and we're we're just living our lives. We've never really been taught, you know, how to think about this these different aspects of human beings and thinking of them as a in the as a whole.
Like, you know, so many women have rightfully complained about, well, he, I think he only sees me as a sexual object.
Yeah, I've heard that.
Right. So, and men have complained, well, I think she only sees me as a success object.
Because, you know, it's really if I didn't have my job, I don't think she'd be into me.
Yeah. And but for a lot of us then we do start developing real feelings perhaps at some point after we're both sexually involved, and then we become aware of this human being is more than just, uh, a pair of sex organs on a, a set of legs. There's actually like a full-service human being capable of deep thought, capable of deep feelings. Uh, he or she has these remarkable insights into life. There's somebody, there's somebody I could imagine making my life with.
You know, this is this is really a a surprising upgrade from what I thought I had.
Yeah.
And then they're at a loss because I don't know any religion out there that has ever taught anybody how to truly embrace their sexuality. So that once we start seeing the other person as a an as the amazing human being they are, then all of a sudden we feel sheepish about the sexual component.
So you knowing you as I do, uh, you might feel shy once you started respecting a woman fully about doing some of the crazy sexual monkey antics that you do, you know, with your typical partner.
Well, I'll tell you right now that I started it like that. But, um, I mean, just to be completely vulnerable, I don't think I've ever done the crazy monkey antics with a woman before. And that's, I'm 41 years old. So listen, take that listeners because I don't think I felt or when I did bring stuff up, I got shot shut down. And when I did ask to do something, it was like that's stupid. So, it's like to me, I wasn't even able to have the wild monkey stuff because I didn't have a safe relationship. That's why when we talk about like intimacy and like actually having a person that listens.
So, it's like for me, I had the kind of opposite sort of experience.
Well, I'm glad you said that because again, I have a number of clients who have had that same experience and whether it's in the church or in a religion or out of a religion. Yeah.
They eventually end up getting married with this person and then.
Before the wild stuff.
Yeah. They never get get there just like you. I'm using an example.
And I've had like.
That's parallel to Europe.
Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And what I see happening is by the time they get to my office, these guys are sneaking around looking at porn because it's super hot to them, or they're going to, uh, visit sex workers, either prostitutes in a brothel, uh, street prostitutes, or, uh, the so-called massage parlor.
Yeah.
Uh, sex worker getting the happy ending.
I don't.
It's becoming too real, Steve. I feel very uncomfortable with your smiling and laughing at that. But.
You know that because we all need both.
Yeah.
We need, I mean, the idea that, well, I married her because I loved her and I wanted to have a life with her, but I, I hadn't factored in that I would be sexually bored and at a standstill for the rest of my life.
Yeah.
So.
Well, you kind of, I mean, come speaking from experience, you just kind of make it this is the way it is. Like, I've talked about this with numerous stuff that we talk about. It's like this is the way relationships are. Once you get past the dating phase, this is just how it is. Like, I don't deserve to have the fantasies that I want to have. I don't deserve to have the sex life that I can imagine because it's not realistic. And like that was in my head for a long time. And then I feel like this the same for these guys possibly. I don't know. But, um, when you have that sort of thinking, you're just, you kind of accept that and then porn becomes normalized and all that sort of stuff. I have so many friends that just are in relationships. They're still using porn or.
Whatever else they're doing.
Yeah.
Exactly. To have an affair is the same thing as using a sex worker, uh, at that point because something vital is missing from my sex life.
Yeah. In my marriage, in my committed relationship. And so I, I find myself gravitating to that. And you could be very moral about it and resist the temptation, but very few men could say, "Oh, no. I never have those thoughts."
Yeah.
I mean, especially men who are in a boring, unsatisfying relationship.
Yeah. For sure.
Right.
So, there's this desire for both. And why is that? Oh, well, because as humans, we do have spiritual needs, of course, and we have sexual needs. We have intellectual needs. We have emotional needs. We're complicated. There's a whole lot going on in here.
So, for me, it means I've got to be able to find a partner with whom I can hand in hand step onto the path going into the deeper, darker parts of the forest and explore who we are. And that's that journey is one of growth.
And I like that really quick. I mean, can you elaborate on your idea of stepping into the deeper darker forest or you also say as waiting into deeper waters and why that is good to go slow?
Yeah, absolutely. I can I can kind of explain that because without a partner, first of all, you can't really do that that much because it's a journey for two, in a bond of intimacy. And intimacy, as we use it, uh, in this podcast, is the ability to safely share our lives with another person. So with a professor at the university, perhaps I have intellectual intimacy, or even with a parent and a young child, and the child shares, I think the moon is made of green cheese, daddy. And you know, instead of laughing at her and making fun of her, to say, really, tell me more.
Yeah.
And.
Where it's safe to share who you are. Well, when it comes to sexual intimacy, most people use that expression as a substitute or euphemism for intercourse. I'm not talking about that. Uh, this is this is like the step or the many steps later in the relationship. And it's like I said, it's not static. If your relationship isn't going to become boring, it needs to be always growing. And the thing about sexuality is it's always growing because none of us disclose everything about who we are upfront, largely because we don't know everything about ourselves upfront until we have some more experience.
But it's also true that what worked for me back in 1985 isn't really that interesting to me anymore. And I'm not talking necessarily about sexual technique, but just certain ideas because 1985, I was young enough to just be, "Oh my gosh, she likes me. She really likes me." And you know, that that was enough.
Yeah.
She's willing to be seen with me in public. Goodness gracious, how wonderful that is. And then once I start accepting myself and growing as a human being, what was once amazing is now my new normal. It's my new minimal standard for entering into a relationship that's based on equality. So intimacy is a journey. And the sexual intimacy that she and I experience is like a journey down a path in a dark forest that I, where I've never been before. And there is a path. I can see where we're going, but I don't know where the path heads and I don't know what, what are the views? In other words, where, where's the beauty in the next hundred yards? It might be a flower. It might be a tree. It might be a, a broader vista of a meadow or something beyond, but I don't know what's there because I've never been here before.
And she's never been here before.
Yeah.
So, the two of us are in this childlike sense of wonder over really how fantastic it is. And it isn't, oh, my sex life is fantastic because, oh, she does every position, you know, in the Kama Sutra and we, we've got thousands of dollars invested in our favorite lube company and we keep it in a 55-gallon drum, uh, with a, a squirt thing at the bottom where we're, we're pumping it, you know, by the, by the quart into our bedroom. No, it's not. It's not about titillation.
But I feel like most people think it is that.
Yeah. And it's that's one reason why I'm delighted to do these podcasts with you because I, I think so much of the world tends to either be ignorant of or to minimize sexuality because they feel shy, sheepish, and and they maybe they just don't even know.
So for you, you mentioned fantasies, and how many of us share with a new girlfriend on a first date what our fantasies are?
Yeah. Well, first of all, she's not a girlfriend, she's a first date.
So.
Slow down, Steve.
Yeah. Right. So, but as we get to know somebody, we, we sort of parade our sexual thoughts in a very minimal fashion, building up, building up until we hit a roadblock or some sort of a stop sign that says, "Whoa." And she, and she gives a shocked reaction or he gives her a shocked reaction.
No, I don't roll that way. I don't think that's right.
And the other person is faced with this dilemma. Do I keep my partner happy and and repress this part of myself?
Yeah.
So that I don't lose the relationship, or do I disclose to my partner, well, this is who I am and these are my thoughts. I was hoping you really wanted to get to know.
All of me.
Yeah. And then that's for most people, that's a very scary thing to say.
Yeah.
Because.
I wouldn't say that.
Yeah.
Back then I would now though.
You would now because you've grown to that point, because of all these conversations we've had and I know that I know that that situation of repression, that model, like you say, that's just not going to work for me and I'm feel okay to let it go and to not grasp grasp so tightly onto something to lose myself in that way of not getting what I want or what I need in a relationship.
Yeah. I mean, a really rough parallel would be you have a political perspective on life, and you begin sharing that, she expresses disapproval. You can either repress that and be forever subservient.
Yeah.
To her standard. Or you can go on to say, well, you know, it's possible I'm just not the right guy for you because I actually do have some political thoughts that might be different from yours. I was hoping you'd be delighted to get to know me.
Yeah. And, and or she can say that to him. And it takes some courage and it also, I think, is aided. That courage is aided by a practice of developing a life worth living prior to cultivating someone for a life worth sharing. You know, if, if I don't have a, a life worth living, I, I really can't say that I'm fit to pursue sharing my life with somebody else because, you know, this, this POS piece of shit life that I have, it's just miserable. And won't you please help me make it feel better?
Yes. And instead, oh, you know, if I, if I'm happy with my life as a single person, I feel pretty comfortable with myself and I'm okay with my point of view on politics or religion or sexuality or anything else, and I'm just looking for somebody I can share that part of me with, and then you get shut down.
Well.
Yeah.
I think the clear, uh, answer is keep looking.
Yeah. But I, it's that that I think is the hard part for most people because like even I was in a relationship and we talk about commitment and how commit, commitment should be a gradual pathway.
Yeah. Most people are in relationships within a month, two months, 3 months. I would say maybe one to six months, maybe that's the average. I'm just making that up so don't quote me on that. But I feel like from what I've observed as a person, like it's pretty quick and there's a lot of pressure to just lock it down. And I remember in one of my relationships, locked it down fairly quickly and then we moved in fairly quickly.
May I ask, did you lock it down as quickly as you did because you were afraid of losing her?
No, I just thought it was love. I thought it was like a connection that's like, oh, we're, we're.
I don't disagree. I think it was love.
Mhm.
And so your belief was if you love someone, then you must act immediately.
Yeah. I, I thought that was how I thought about it. And I, it just felt like if you like someone, why not be in a relationship with them? And but without even thinking about the intentional interview, like we talk about, like even asking any questions about, uh, finance, future, um, sexuality, we, like, none of those discussions, just kind of going with the flow of things. So then after we moved in, like a year or two later, I brought up something, um, about like sexuality and what I was interested in and she's like, like I said, like talking about wearing like an outfit and she's like, "Well, that's stupid. I don't like that. Clothes come off anyways."
And you said, "I didn't mean you. I was going to wear that outfit."
Yeah. I wish I did. I wish I was, I that I was that quick back then, but I wasn't. I was just like, "Oh, I said something that I shouldn't have said." And I'm already, we're already together. We're already in your, in relationship. I'll just forget about it. But then it's like, then you start doing behaviors like watching porn or doing something that you shouldn't be doing. And then.
Where with porn, you have the fantasy of being free.
Mhm.
And I, I think you, in maybe unintentionally, brought up the great example of the female analog because she has her own version of the Madonna horror paradigm that she is applying now to you.
Okay. So how does that work? Where you said, "Well, I'd really like it if you'd wear this sexy outfit." And she, um, said, "I think that's stupid." Or whatever she said.
And then you immediately shut down and stopped sharing that those kind of.
Exactly. Yeah.
So.
And that does not do anybody any good, like.
No, it really doesn't.
I mean, not at that moment, but I mean.
You know, you mean shutting it down. Shut your disclosures. Not only disclosures, but just even having it. Essentially, it became like a huge form of anxiety to even bring anything up because it's like I just didn't know how she would react to it and that sort of thing and I didn't know how to navigate the situation. So I was just kind of like at this standstill, not having any, like the words, having no words for how to describe it and again, not thinking like I, that I was asking too much, like kind of like that kind of feeling.
You were asking for too much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I, I think, uh, I don't know another motivation I have for doing these podcasts and talking to people about what I've learned is that it's, it's so hurtful to be confronted with that kind of rejection and to have to try then to live with it over months or years. And I, I really just, I've experienced it and I don't want anybody else to have to live that way.
Well, that's why I like doing it too because it's like I see the benefit for myself like going forth like creating the life worth living and being comfortable being alone and not feeling so got to grab it, got to lock it down and just feeling open that there are many million. You're always like billions of people on the planet, you know? So it's like.
Yeah, she's not the last one.
Yeah, but I have that mentality. And then also when you're already committed super early, you're moved in together, you're, you know, at that point, it's like that disclosure happened should have happened way sooner, I believe, or at least.
Maybe not so much in terms of sooner, but certainly prior to.
Prior to moving in and all the rest that goes with that.
Yeah.
And I think that's for me the sequence of events. It's like, you know, she and I might date three times, five times, 10 times before we exchange so much as a kiss.
Yeah.
Because we, we're just really enjoying getting to know each other and it's so much fun. But eventually, and most of us fantasize at some point, there's going to be a kiss, which is a symbol of affection and and a deeper level of acceptance. And the kiss, I think the the conservative religious are quite right. It is a sexual statement and we are sexually communicating. I find you attractive. I want you in my life. I like being in your body. And unless we're able to navigate that, there's not much point in then going on to express our deeper thoughts that are riskier and all the rest.
How many times, and this happens in the movies often enough, but it's happened in in real life, I think, where people like a guy initiates a kiss, only to have her turn her face away.
Yeah.
And that feeling that goes with that for him is not a good feeling.
Mhm.
You know, I mean, unless he's in a really good spot and then he might feel mildly amused, you know, that she got shy after giving him so many, uh, come hither messages.
Mhm.
But in any case, it's an opportunity to build more intimacy.
So, yeah. You know, a thought I had while we were talking, I was listening to you and thinking about how hard it is for a lot of my gay clients to come out.
Mhm.
And, you know, whether they're talking to a man or a woman, uh, whe or at work or or in their social life, if they haven't yet come out, it's there's a reason for that, right? And it's it's in some ways too bad that the whole language around coming out makes this burden special on gay people. But I think gay men and women are often the tip of the spear that leads the rest of us toward spiritual and sexual intimacy because they do think about these things in terms of acceptance, and then they do test the waters and they do face rejection, whereas I think the majority of heterosexuals give up at the the first sign of any resistance.
Yeah.
You know, she makes a face when you say, "Hey, sometime we ought to go to a spa and, you know, have sex in a jacuzzi or something," and she makes that face and says, "Oh, I guess that's not something she wants to do."
Yeah.
And or she says, "Oh, let's go get a hotel room. That would be fun. I love hotel rooms." And he's like, "What? Wait a minute. How many, how many guys you've been in hotel rooms with?"
Yeah.
What's going on with that? And he, he again, he's he's had sex with her multiple times and he knows she wasn't a virgin. But all of a sudden he has reservations now that wait a minute, she's not as Madonna like as I had fantasized. I thought I was the only one in her life. Well, no, you, of course, she had a life before you. She's 30 years old. You know, she's been kissing on men since she was whatever age and and had a sex life before she ever knew you and, um, and and only shut down her Only Fans page recently.
So, that's another thing though, the guy could be like, "She's less Madonna than I think." And then that could get him in some trouble within it as well.
Absolutely. Because, you know.
At that point, he knows she's recreational in his mind. Okay. Oh, I could never bring this one home to mom. And then there are the guys who cross the wires. Yeah, she's smoking hot and I really like the sex with her. It's so crazy. And I do want to marry this girl and I do want to introduce her to my mother. But for many millions of men, navigating that and women, I, I need to be fair on that.
Navigating that is extremely difficult. Another example, the old joke, and it, it's told in various models depending on the ethnicity of the people telling the joke, but the, the one food that you can feed a woman so that she never engages in oral sex or gives a blowjob ever again. And the, the quick answer is, oh, wedding cake.
And because again, it's it's difficult to navigate that Madonna horror complex once we've transitioned from being more or less casual to more or less committed.
So is that because it's you do it in a church like like the vows?
Or maybe we don't do it in a church, but invariably, if you ask people whether they think matrimony is a sacred institution, really, the majority of people still think that way.
Yeah. And I think if they don't call it sacred, they at least call it very special. And they may not have the words to describe how special, but really, that's all sacred means is set apart, special, different from others. So when we start thinking that way, well, isn't something supposed to change? Maybe, uh, maybe things are supposed to change, but I would argue they're not supposed to change in terms of less freedom of expression between two people who love each other.
Do you have an example of why that is, why that happens? Because it's like it seems very familiar to me, like people get married and then sex life goes down. Like the graph is like this, and then marriage, and then.
Kind of like.
Yeah, especially like 5, 10 years in, whatever it may be.
Well, of course, we don't have sex like we used to because we're older now. I mean, we are 29, or we're, you know, we've been married for years and it's that same old same old over and over again. But those are those are false reasons again because it doesn't take into account the nature of intimacy, which if it's alive, it's growing. If the intimacy is alive, it's growing. And the intimacy is the ability to safely share your life together. So that means you're finding new things out about yourself and disclosing that, in a safe way where you're not being shut down and you're not shutting down your partner, and you're.
That's what you mean by that. Like, right. And if you have that, that sustains.
Right. So maybe in your first, you know, over time, perhaps we get more comfortable in the bedroom, and and occasionally we dream up a joke, and we we say some joke that we never would have said back in the early days of the romance of it all, and the wonder about the sexuality, but now we're cracking each other up on the regular. And people might think, "Oh, that shows a lack of respect." But I would argue no, it shows a burgeoning level of more and more intimacy.
Yeah.
Because we're safely sharing humor and play with one another.
Yeah.
So, if we're not doing that, then the intimacy isn't growing. And if the intimacy isn't growing, oh my goodness, now we have the age-old problem of systematic desensitization. Because after all, I have seen her body before, and it is the same body. And if I don't have the freedom to talk about it, to show my reactions, you know, if I don't have the ability to be sexually free with her and she with me, then we're not able to express the thoughts that are going on in our, uh, minds or the feelings going on in our hearts. And how can it be growing if we're not able to express all that?
It's it's funny because I think for so many men and women, the idea is I want to preserve the sacred nature of the relationship.
Post marriage, you're saying.
Post marriage, let's say, but I, I do it at the risk of giving up sharing who I am.
All hope of intimacy is now lost.
Yeah. She's not sharing who she is, and we're in a, a very static relationship where the stasis is unending.
Well, I think.
Of course, it gets boring.
Yeah. Well, I feel like a lot of that comes down to like we talk about again, the intentional interview, and if you're, and if you rush things, I feel like if you take your time, like you said one time in a podcast where you would say people shouldn't be in a commit until a year. I have you on tape saying that.
Yeah, I deny that. That was that's fake news and some AI came up.
But it's like I feel like you have, I feel like that again, we talk about in these podcasts how it's about sustaining and building, building and sustaining a long-term committed relationship. And I feel like in order to do that, have, like you're always like, what's the rush? To which I could explain. I feel like I understand why people do rush it, but I feel like that slow build allows you to avoid some of these pitfalls. Like.
I didn't say it back when you first brought this up, but for me, the motive in locking it down with my first marriage was I was afraid of losing her.
And I didn't want.
To another guy.
Yeah. To another guy or to the vicissitudes of life itself. I didn't want us to drift away from one another because I thought she was that wonderful, and really, she was that wonderful, but we hadn't done any of the other work, you know, to really get there. And the reason I bulk at embracing that quote, I think I was talking about specifically a quote, a commitment that involves moving in or getting engaged or something like that. And the reality of commitment is that it's on a continuum.
So part of your commitment even on the first date that's implied is I'm going to behave like a gentleman and I will not hurt you. You know, that's that's part of the commitment. Part of her commitment there is the same. I am going to be on my good behavior. I will say please and thank you and I will not hurt you.
At least not intentionally.
Yeah.
And so over time the commitments kind of ramp up. You know, like say she's irritated with you in month number three and you're still not committed, but she says, "You know, I notice that whenever we go out, you you talk a lot about yourself, but you never ask about me." And well, that's I would say a legit complaint if that's what was going on. And you might want to argue about that. You might say, "Well, actually, I remember so many times asking you about yourself." And you digging in your heels saying, "Oh, it's boring. Tell me more about you." And so, you go back and forth until you finally reach some sort of accommodation where you're both getting your needs met and you're comfortable and you're moving forward.
Well, that argument, that's part of a commitment, too. My my commitment is to confront my mate, and she is committed to confronting me when they're unhappy. And that we are committed to working things out in an abuse-free manner.
Yeah.
And we are committed to finding a solution that works for both of us, trying a few more weeks or months to see how that solution works, and voila, we solved a problem. How exciting. But if we're not committed to problem solving and to having the courage to confront one another and to really think through problems instead of saying, "Oh yeah, I broke up with my boyfriend. He was just always about himself," or yeah, I broke up with my girlfriend because man, she would just never share anything about herself. And then, you know, I think that that's much more common than the the couple who actually actively mindfully, uh, get into a conflict with the idea of resolving problems that keep them apart so that they can be even closer.
And again, we get to that idea of intimacy is a living thing.
Mhm.
It's it's it's the living representation of this energy between the two of us in our relationship, and that that has to stay alive.
Yeah.
If one of us is pouting and giving the other the cold shoulder, that's the opposite of intimacy.
So, when we talk about the Madonna horror thing, I know that there's a lot of ways we can shut each other down.
Yes. Sometimes it's with something demeaning or humiliating. I can't believe a woman like that, a woman that I would like, would ever want to do that.
Yeah.
You know, or vice versa.
Mhm.
And when in reality, my being uncomfortable with that is is really about me. It's not about, oh, I am so morally evolved that I within myself contain the very standard of right and wrong.
Yeah. And I go through life informing people of what they're doing wrong.
Yeah.
And that's none of us are that person. So to say it, I think it would be more appropriate to say, gee, I don't know how comfortable I am with that.
Oh, really? What's, you know, where do you think that discomfort is coming from? Well, I've always been kind of shy and I've never done that with anybody else.
And she said, "No, once you try on that dress, you're gonna love it. It's so comfortable."
Mhm.
And then just don't think I'm ready for that, you know, and, and or vice versa, you know, you wanted her to wear the, you know, the sexy, um, lingerie or something, and she maybe's never done that, but it's not like, oh, I need that right now or I will not be able to touch you or enjoy touching you.
Yeah. And over time. So, I know we're running out of time here and at some point we got to talk about, well, what should people do? And I think there are two, there are two steps. One is qualifying the other people that I'm dating, the other person. Qualifying them by simply sharing a bit about who I am and if they react in an abusive way to shut me down.
Like.
That's actually disgusting. I can't believe you'd ever want that.
Yeah. Um, that kind of judgmentalism when you're being open and vulnerable, say on a 10th date, you share something or you share something about your sexual history from 5 years before and you had a partner who did something that was amazing and even though the relationship didn't work out, you really enjoyed this, the sex life the two of you had. Um, and then you get shut down or shamed over that. You sure do think about sex a lot, don't you?
Yeah. And I think if we can't get past that, then I would say the person is no longer qualified for further consideration.
But that's it's easy to say, but then I feel like doing it is a whole another practice because again, it's like that neediness that we talk about.
Yes.
And it's like I will give this up because I have not, I haven't had a girlfriend in 5 years. I got someone talking to me. Whatever. I could live without that if she's.
So you're untrue to yourself. So we're really not having true intimacy because she's not really relating to me who I am. She's relating to the me I burnished, polished up for her, present, you know, her approval.
Yeah.
And I think then the love that I'm afraid of losing, I just automatically lost because it's no longer me. And this goes with our other earlier observation. I should have already developed a life worth living where it's okay out of, you know, five billion women on the planet, if a couple don't like me.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, being rejected by the right women is important.
Mhm.
Because then I get to just move on and spend time looking for a better fit.
Yeah. The second step besides qualifying, I think.
And that qualification, really quick, that's what we talked about with like that would be classified under the intentional interview.
Absolutely. And does she really want to get to know me? And you do that slowly, kind of like waiting into the forest or waiting into the waters. It's not like you're like, here's a big disclosure, date one, laying on you. It's like you're just slowly, we talk about layering up the disclosures, like giving something like.
Yeah. Nobody jumps to the top of a ladder in real life. We step up, step by step by step. And the same way, I think, applies to to intimacy in a relationship. We don't put out, my name's Steve. I was convicted of a sex crime last year. You want to go out?
Well, no. Because nobody would want to go out if that's all they know about you. Um, and I don't, I just think there's no rush for that kind of disclosure. But then you get to a point where you've requested something a little bit different, a little bit out of the ordinary. Like, for example, you've never kissed her and you would, and you like the idea of kissing her, but it's just never felt quite right. And I'm going to use a word that people who are in who are counseling sex offenders use and DAS use it all the time, and the word is grooming. There is such a thing as making, uh, systematic desensitization work for me.
So I bring up the idea of kissing and she says, "Yeah, I really don't like kissing." Okay, that's information. But after the, and I don't mean to refer to nagging when I say this, but if you bring up kissing conversationally 10 more times, oh, like I really like that kiss in that movie when they shared that kiss in that scene, it seemed to really take their relationship to another level. Yeah, but I don't like kissing. Uh, or whatever it is she says. Her reaction, or his reaction from a woman's point of view in a hetero relationship. The reaction is going to be less intense each time because I'm getting exposed to the same idea and no human brain can be as revolted or put off by any stimuli that is being repeated over and over and over.
So again, in order to see if she's the kind of person who is capable of growing, capable of liking you enough to give you a kiss, you might bring up, "Hey," and she says, "How are you doing?" "Well, I'm doing pretty good, but man, my mind has been preoccupied."
Really? What are you thinking about?
You know, I keep thinking about kissing you. I know it's not something you're into, but it's taken on the whole forbidden fruit thing, and it's like, man, now I know what Adam felt like in the Garden of Eden. It's pretty fun. It's pretty intense. And she again might, you know, at some point, if you're casually, uh, uh, amusing and funny about this, you're going to get a smile, you're going to get a chuckle, and at some point, I believe you're most likely going to get a kiss. And of course, even a kiss needs to be consensual.
So if she gets to the point where she says, "I know, I know you want to kiss me, but I just can't. It's not in me."
Okay. Well, I'm probably not the right guy for you.
Yeah.
Because when I hang out with you and I see your face, the first thing I want to do is kiss it.
Uhhuh.
And she hangs her head. Yeah. But can't we have a relationship without kissing?
Well, we could. I would just have to, you know, murder myself.
Yeah.
And, you know, not be who I am.
Yeah.
Does that sound like fun to you?
Well, no. Okay. So, you know what? But you've got a younger sister and I know she's open to dating, so I'm going to date her. And you have a nervous look on your face because that would be scary to say that.
Yeah. Well, a few things like, so you're saying don't doing that over and over asking for the kiss again and again and again. That is considered like grooming.
Well, like it's better to just.
I'm not going to ask for it over and over again explicitly because then it starts sounding like a nag or a whining or, you know, I'm just trying to break her down. But if I ask a girl, if I bring it up five times and she's still saying no, that's time to be like, that's not like even three times maybe I feel like that's not going to work for me.
Well, if dating is truly a recreational moment, and that's really what it is. We're there to have fun.
Yeah.
As long as it's fun, I'm down. Okay. We're going to we're going to keep having fun with this thing. I might enjoy teasing her. I might enjoy that, you know, seeing the slight changes in the way she feels about kissing.
Okay. But at some point if she, you know, puts her foot down and says, "Look, I've made it clear that's a boundary. I don't want to do that."
Well, you know what? You're absolutely right. I had no idea you felt that strongly about it, but now that I do, uh, I can certainly honor that boundary. I have to tell you, I don't see how we can go forward.
You know, I'm Oh, you're going to break up with me because I didn't kiss you?
Yeah.
Well, is that all you ever think about is sex? No. It's not all I ever think about, but I do think about it because sexuality is a part of me that I want to honor. I don't want to repress it just because I really like you.
Yeah.
And if I'm the wrong kind of guy for you, then really it should be a good feeling to see the last of me, right?
So, okay. I think that I don't want to turn myself into a nag. Uh like the guy who's wanting some sort of unusual sexual position or favor or technique or something like that and he whines and whines and whines about it like forever. Um I want to be the guy who is simply free to be himself. And if that self that I truly am is not somebody she can accept, then we both probably would be well served to move along.
And that is again back to the Donna Horror Complex, a way you have to be yourself. You have both people have to be themselves.
Yeah. So for one of my female clients over the years, uh she she met him. They had a great and exciting uh sex life and then they started getting closer and eventually became engaged. She noticed the sex life changed a little bit. It slowed down and became on his part a little more inhibited. But she didn't mind because he was simultaneously telling her how much he respects her and how much value he takes and her her core nature. He was a kind, loving um and very intelligent woman. So now he's shifting more towards the madonna. He's shifting towards started changing and then after the marriage it got sex became much less frequent and then after pregnancy it stopped virtually altogether after childbirth you know you can't very well have sex with the holy mother you know so it came to a virtual standstill like a couple times a year.
So I'm thinking of it on the weighted scale of and it should be equal right.
When you say it should be equal what do you mean.
The Madonna horror So it's like Madonna [ __ ] and it should be equal. But if you go like this and then it's more in the Madonna and the horrors down here then.
I can't imagine what our audience is thinking about right now to put it that in those terms. But for me the overall solution for all of the viewers right now is that incumbent upon each one of us is the requirement to integrate our sexuality with our spirituality.
So I have to find a way to be who I am within my spiritual outlook. And even for the non-religious, it means within the overall bulk of my values, I feel good about disclosing this, about having these fantasies, about sharing my sexual history with my partners. And if my I run into a potential mate who's uncomfortable with that that I can uh fall away and move on with someone else because I've integrated my sexuality and my spirituality spirituality so that I no longer have guilt or shame about who I am, what I want integrated and who've been. Yes, I've integrated these values c are integrated with my sexual history, my sexual fantasies and my sexual practices. So if somebody masturbates, I remember one of my clients, she was in a committed monogous relationship with her boyfriend. He came home unexpectedly one day, walked into the bedroom while she was masturbating. He was horribly offended, rolled his eyes, expressed verbally some disgust, and left the room. Um, to me, that's a real moment of needing to look at all of this.
Is he integrating his sexuality and spirituality? Is she? Because I can tell you her her own spirituality didn't include, oh, I could stay with somebody who has no respect for me.
Mhm.
Or I could stay with somebody who needs to control my my sexual choices even when there's no one else in the room.
Yeah.
Um, you know, that that kind of thing makes it makes no sense and it simply can't work. So, this is a very valuable litmus test for all relationships. Yeah.
And if we're not there in a current relationship for those who are married, I think having a frank discussion about it. Do you think we have sexual intimacy? Do you think that we both are have integrated our sexuality with our values?
And do you think we're able to express ourselves so far freely and comfortably? And maybe can you can you remember a time it was kind of scary for you to share something with me?
Yeah. Yeah.
Another example of one of my clients who was.
And what happened with them really quick?
Oh, that couple they broke up.
Because he couldn't.
Eventually they broke up, but it was very soon after that because she was living under a permanent sense of judgment cuz he couldn't let it go.
He never mentioned it again, but it was always she was a oneown position.
So that shifted the equality. Yeah.
We could go back to scale.
Well, he would he was the moral one.
Mhm.
She was the immoral [ __ ] and so how is he supposed to respect her?
So that imbalance will never be able to.
To sus that imbalance will kind of ruin the relationship. It seems.
If allowed to continue.
If allowed to continue without it being resolved. It's like a conflict that needs to be resolved.
Absolutely. It is.
Okay.
Yeah. It's a conflict for which we have no words. And were they married or were they not?
They were not.
Okay.
They were living together.
Okay. So kind of.
In my office working with a group of men, I remember one time talking about this same concept and the idea of uh intimacy being part of that would be historic intimacy. The ability to safely share our histories with one another.
Yeah. Because there are such people who are very uncomfortable even though you're 40 and a day. You're the idea that you might have fallen in love hard with somebody else prior to meeting her. That's offensive. That means you don't really love her. Now that to me that's part of your sexuality, part of your sexual history. Of course, loving people fall in love. That's what they do. There's nothing weird about that. And in fact, it would be scary to date somebody who'd never been in love before.
Yeah.
Because that would mean they're not a particularly loving person, but to be able to The group confronted me because I said I would want to know everything about someone I love because I love her and everything about her is of interest to me and is ultimately a lovable part of who she is. And they were like, "Bullshit."
Yeah. They they said, "And we started talking about," that's why I would want to know her sexual history. Well, you'd want to know how many partners she had. Yeah, absolutely. Why not? I would want to know what worked for her, what didn't work for her. I There's nothing I wouldn't want to know.
Yeah.
And because it's it's in the past. This is part of who she was that enabled her to become who she is.
So if we can't have this resolution of the Madonna [ __ ] complex, then we're not really ever going to be able to truly be close and loving with one another.
And that's the mic drop. I got I got nothing after that.
Okay. I Well, I was trying to ring you out dry in this one. So.