Quantum Information Panpsychism Explained | Federico Faggin

Imagine that you control a drone. The drone looks at that reality where it is; it sends me information, and I get the conscious experience of what the drone is seeing. That conscious experience is not in my body; it is in my consciousness. A scientific theory basically states that our body is operated like a drone from a conscious quantum field. Which would mean that experience, qualia, is not in your head. The qualia do not exist in the body; they exist in the field. Okay, people will find this um, crazy idea. It is crazy, but it is much closer to the truth.

Fedo Fen invented the first CPU, the touchpad, and worked on the first neural nets, which gave him the hope of creating conscious AI. It took me 30 years to figure out that mathematics is created by consciousness and therefore I cannot explain consciousness with mathematics. People, many physicists, think that there is emerging, emerging properties in the purely classical world. It cannot be. Emergentism requires quantumness, like some other renowned physicists. Fagin is convinced that consciousness cannot be a classical phenomenon and has to be quantum. But his theory of quantum consciousness goes beyond any theories on the table. We have to go way beyond Schrödinger's equation; we had to go into the Rocks equation, but even beyond that, we had to go to quantum fields and quantum information. Quantum information goes beyond the concepts of quantum fields. In fact, the only physicist that's been able to show the quantum physics derived from quantum information is an Italian physicist, Jacopo Maria D'Ariano. It showed that you can derive all the equations of quantum physics from quantum bits.

Fedor Fen reached out to Marod D'Ariano, and together they published a paper, and Fedor wrote this book. If they are right, not only will they have an accurate theory of consciousness, they will also solve the mystery of the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Quantum information is the representation of inner experience, and the collapse of the wave function is the representation of my, of the free will. What more do you want? That's crazy. That's crazy. Um, let's try and really understand this.

Welcome to the Asenia Foundation YouTube channel. Thanks for watching, and may I ask you to like and subscribe, as it really helps us to grow our channel? Now, this interview was recorded when Fedo visited the Netherlands to present his new book, Irreducible. A link to the book and scientific papers are in the description below. And in his book, Fedor describes how a deeply personal experience led him to start investigating consciousness. Therefore, I found it interesting to start our conversation with this personal experience, of course, after that we go into the theory itself. In the chapter marks below, you can see the topics we discussed. Now, without further ado, here is silicon hero and consciousness pioneer Federico Faggin.

Fedo, can you tell us about a pivotal moment in your life, namely the experience you had at Lake Tahoe? Do I pronounce it correctly? Y, during your Christmas holiday days of 1990?

Yeah, I wasn't happy, you know, and I reached everything that the world says that if you do all this stuff, you should be happy, and I wasn't. I realized that I was faking being happy because I needed to, because I was running a company, I had to be enthusiastic and everything else, but I was dying inside. So what's going on? What's wrong with this picture? And so consciousness then was, you know, the, you know, became center stage in my life, understanding that this conscience is somehow was also connected with feeling, you know, desperate inside. So what's going on? So I wanted to understand what consciousness is, so that's when, you know, in, and I wanted to understand it for my own sake, for not, not to do something about it, not to monetize, not to make a new technology, because before it was all about, you know, doing something, you know, and now all of a sudden I turned my attention inside because of the suffering. And it was in this climate that I had this extraordinary experience of consciousness. Now I can go to this Tahoe night, you know, in 1990, during the, the Christmas holidays. We had a home up in Tahoe, which is a Lake Tahoe is a beautiful lake, 2500 uh, meters, and there are mountains, and skiing is great. U um, and um, and so, you know, one night I woke up midnight, uh, you know, I was thirsty, went to get a glass of water, um, and uh, went back to bed and was just, you know, just waiting for, you know, go back to sleep, thinking nothing, and all of a sudden out of the chest, just a, you know, just energy was coming out of my chest, but it was love, and it was love that was never felt before. It was, it was love that was coming from me. How can love come from me? I mean, you know, it was unthinkable that love could come from me, you know, and it was 10,000 times more powerful than any love that I felt before. I mean, and in fact, never felt that love, because it was unconditional love. Now I have a name for it; it was love, period. It was, it was yes, it was coming from me, but it was love, and it was light, was a white light scintillating; it was, you know, like a, like sparkles, you know, and he was coming out, and then he, he explodes, and he everywhere, but is everywhere, but my consciousness is there too. So not only my consciousness is within me, but is also outside of me, and all of a sudden I realize I am that. So I am the observer and the observed simultaneously, but I retain my point of view; I retain my identity. I was still the same kid, 5 years old or three years old kid that I, that I was then, and so, and that I am now. And so that identity was so my, the only thing on me that remain was that point of view, and, and, and then I realized, oh my God, this stuff is the stuff of which everything is made; everything comes from this stuff, and my body was hot; it was vibrating, you know, like the cells of my body were resonating with this thing, the, you know, of course, the, the emotion, the feelings was love, joy, and peace, because this, this stuff felt like that's me; I'm, I'm at home; this is me. So I'm, I'm finally home; this is the, you know, this is home, but, and so it was all mixed up, so you cannot separate this stuff, you know, love, joy, and peace, and um, and then the mind was saying, this is the stuff of everything is made, so I'm everything, but also the observer of everything, so I'm, I'm a point of view of one with which one knows itself. And now is the centerpiece of this new theory of consciousness that u we may talk later about.

Yeah, beautiful. I'm a, I was a physicalist; I thought, you know, basically, you know, materialist, because I study physics, you know, and everybody knows the consciousness comes from matter; perhaps we don't know how, but has to come from matter; what else can it come from? So I mean, that was the mindset that I was. So all of a sudden, how can you know, no, this, this is before matter, somehow, you know, so this, this must be the beginning of it. So uh, you know, that changed it, and that, you know, that started me in a completely different; I went orthogonal in terms of my personal development and thinking while I was running Synoptics, so that was fine, but I spent from that point on 30 to 40% of my time trying to understand what happened and studying, doing meditation, you know, figuring, you know, anything that I could understand to understand what happened. But that picture actually is the end; is now I can explain with this new theory of conscious; I can explain exactly what happened and exactly why that is correct. Every, every single one of us is a field that is both the observer, the observed, and the actor. Every one of us is a field, and it doesn't exist in this field; does not exist in space and time; space-time is exist within these fields that we are; is us. So this changes the paradigm, right? But we need a change of paradigm, because otherwise, if we are machines like scientism is telling us we are, we are going to be taken over by the machines, the artificial intelligence that people will control; powerful people control, and through those machines they can control us. If we don't change our mind of who we are, it will become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy; will become a self-fulfilling prophecy because we have not done the personal work to understand who we are, and we are not machines. The body is a machine, but it's a machine that is infinitely more complex than the computers, because it is a quantum and classical machine; is not a machine like a computer; just to, you know, it's simple to understand that every cell of my body is a part-whole of the body. What do I mean by that? Every cell of my body has the genome of the egg that created the entire organism, so every part of my body has the potential knowledge of the whole; in this case, the whole is just the body. So we are holographic; we are holographic; we are made of parts; all we have 50 trillion cells; each has the potential knowledge of the whole organism. So a cell, which is a part, can change within its own life by taking advantage of the potential knowledge of the whole; that's why epigenetics exist. 20 years ago, if you said epigenetics, they would, you would have put, you know, into the, into the corn as a, you know, as a crazy guy. Okay, now we know that epigenetics exist; why? Because every part is a part-whole. So we as human beings, we are fields which are part-whole of one, the totality of what exists; same pattern repeated at different scales.

Very nice. We, we are going, going deeper right now, and I think good for people to understand this comes from, from the architect of the first microprocessor. If we have that cell, that part-whole as you mentioned, and we have a modern-day microprocessor that many people attribute sort of the same intelligence or complexity to, because that's the idea, right? Because it's just um, so many connections, so many computing power, so many people think we will achieve sort of cell-like, and then, of course, um, organism-like intelligence. Can you just on the ground level make that comparison, the cell versus the microprocessor?

Yeah, a microprocessor is made of switches, on, off, on, off, on, off. What does this switch know about the whole, the old computer? Nothing; it doesn't know anything; the most all that it could possibly know is that it's open or close, and but it can do nothing else. Every cell of my body is connected to the whole through this quantum fields, because a cell is a quantum classical thing; is not a classical thing; it has been studied as biochemistry by, by biologists; is an informational system of a kind that we have still to understand; the foundation is quantum and classical; quantum and classical; nobody understands how life works; it goes way beyond what we understand; we think is a mechanism, and that's because those cells remain connected with the fields, because they're made of particles, and quantum physics is telling us that particles are not objects; particles are states of a field; they cannot be taken away from the field; they're not separable from the fields; they are like a wave of the sea cannot be taken out of the sea. But what many people, I think, and this we really need to clarify, I think, okay, in a cell we have uh, proteins bumping around which are in the end complex molecules; in a computer we have electrons that are also particles; what exactly makes the molecules, the particles within the cell um, quantum classical and a computer purely classical? Because I'd say, okay, aren't there quantum effects as well in computers that connect them to that field you were talking about?

Yeah, but the quantum effects are incoherent, and they cancel out. So the quantumness is canceled out; the bit, the bit is the average of quantum phenomena; they cancel out, and then therefore is a, first of all, the bit is not a physical thing; it's an abstraction that we have created. What is zero and what is one? We have determined, and as long as within the system the zero and the one as the simplest possible symbols can be recognized as zero and one, that's all that is needed. So if you maintain that coherence, but it's a classical coherence, because the zero and the one are classical information that can be reproduced; a quantum bit cannot be reproduced; a quantum bit when you measure the quantum bit you get zero or one in the direction in which you measure it, but you have to set the direction, because if you don't know the direction, whichever any direction that you choose you will find zero or one; is the Olivos theorem says that the maximum information that you can get from a quantum bit is a classical bit; the quantum bit cannot be known; the not cloning theorem says that you cannot clone even a quantum bit. Yeah, once we want to know the quantum state, it will collapse in a state which is a zero or one, and we are in a classical world, class in classical. So quantum information cannot be reproduced; quantum information cannot be reproduced; classical information can be reproduced. We are quantum fields are what we feel within can be represented by quantum information, but the what we feel goes beyond the representation; the representation is mathematics; is the map; what we feel is the territory; is what we feel is only within the field; that's how we know the meaning is within us; is within the field; is not in the information; physics; the information in physics has no meaning. And the problem with, with the current world view is that you, if you start with this type of information, there is no meaning, then you cannot conclude that the universe is without meaning and purpose just because you have started that way. But in fact, if you start with quantum information, people cannot explain why you cannot copy quantum information; why can I not copy quantum information? Then the new theory says consciousness and free will are foundational; cannot be explained with anything simpler. But if you start with that, you can explain why quantum physics must be the way it is; exactly the up, the again a, you know, again the, the, you know, the silicon gate technology turning around the problem, and you go from here to there instead of going from there to here, and there is collapse of the wave function which are, are free will's decision of the field, of the various fields that are interacting and creating this thing that emerges from this fields. The particle is not separable from the fields; is, is integral to the fields; then they forget about it; then they think of the particle, little ball; the people they study biology think that the cell is classical; it is not classical.

Yeah, they think of the, the rule of large numbers, right? Because quantum effects are on a sort of subatomic particle level, and it filters out; it cancels out, and then we have the classical world which is out, inside the cell; they work together to create these structures that they don't even understand that, that, that is going on right now; they don't understand how this cell works as a totality, you know; we are instructed not to understand, and we are going through a blinders; we don't understand; I mean, there is, for example, about 10 years ago, you know, so a few, a few physicists and biologists, but people with strong knowledge of physics started say, hey, but, but you know, life, there must be something quantum in life; oh, forget it; not possible; okay, and they were ostracized, and you know, eventually there is a very small CER, you know, quantum biology is called now; people that's trying to understand life as a quantum phenomenon; they are still ostracized, but at least now they have some money to do research, but for 10 years it was like, you know, everybody knows the, you know, I mean, these dogmas of the sort of the, or, or orthodoxy of science, you know, are, you know, impeding us to really make progress, you know, and it's time to stop this, but you know, there is a strong desire for the, you know, for this orthodoxy to keep this materialist and reductionist framework that has shown that is no longer valid; everybody knows; I mean, people they really think, but they don't want that because it's power and how, but, but, but if we go back, I really like when you talk about sort of, because I think that's the real not and bolts; we go into the, the, the eukaryotic cell, and we see the proteins; we have the DNA; we have, we have all the action going on in a cell which is tremendously complex, but we think we can reduce it to first principles because we know what those molecules do to each other, and then it's just a rule of large numbers which will give us sort of the action of the cell and will build up to the organism, but you saying that on that level quantum effects are playing a role which make action within the cell indeterministic and even a free will decision.

Absolutely, but the free will de is not in the cell; is in the fields that control the cell. See, I was mentioning before, right, that a particle like an electron doesn't exist separate from the fields; it's a state of the field; the from physics point of view ontology is in the field; it's not in the particles, because the particles, you know, are inte grow to the field, so they come and they go; if, if a particle existed, it wouldn't disappear, right? But an electron can appear and disappear, but it is a state of a field that appears or disappear; there is nothing more; the part, there is no particle; but physicist, the particle physicist, but I see the particles; no, you don't see the particles; you see the effect of the stat of the field on this classical world, and then you see something, but that is not a particle; that is the effect of something that was amplified and, you know, huge number of times to give you what you call a particle, and, and to, to clarify this for people, when we talk about quantum and classical, the classical world is the world of matter that we know that seems to behave deterministically um, and the quantum world, of course, is a world of probabilities, right, of multiple states being possible at once, and how exactly do they relate if you say quantum classical? So what bit of our body is classical? Of course, my body; it doesn't evaporate while I'm sitting here, so that, that would make it classical, but my thoughts are quantum.

Yes, okay, so first of all, there is no clear boundary between classical and quantum; in other words, we again want to put things into boxes; that's the first mistake; there are no separate boxes; one is holistic; the reality, deeper reality is holistic; means it's not made of separable parts, and it's not made of separable concepts, which is even deeper. So even true or false is an approximation of reality, valid under certain conditions, like one and zero are valid for a certain temperature and pressure of the computer; if you change the temperature it doesn't work anymore, because that distinction can no longer be valid in a world where there are, you know, there is a continuity; there is everything is connected with everything else. So but we don't want that world, because you cannot control that world. So the problem now is a problem of power and control behind this desire to have a deterministic and reductionistic world, which is the materialist philosophy, which is, it's time to abandon that, because quantum physics already saying that that doesn't work, you know; according to quantum physics, the universe is holistic; is not made of separable parts; everything is connected; everything is connected from the inside. But according to most physicist, there is no inside, because every, you know, they think that all that exists is actually what you can measure, but that is not possible; nobody can understand why quantum computers work, because their actual operation cannot occur in space-time; it must occur in what is called Hilbert space, but Hilbert space is supposed to be a mathematical abstraction; so how can you do operations in an abstract space of mathematics? You see, is incoherent, but nobody want to think deeply about this stuff, because nobody has ever taught how to think deeply about stuff; they want to solve the problem; give me the equation; I'll solve the equations, but the equations are created by consciousness; it is consciousness that creates mathematics, not mathematics that creates consciousness; it took me 30 years to figure out that mathematics is created by consciousness, and therefore I cannot explain consciousness with mathematics. And I realized that I was trying to do the same, because I was taught that way; I had to turn it around again; turn it around, and we can only touch, let's say, but we can touch sort of at the outer surface of consciousness with mathematics; it's our own understanding of ourselves.

So would the Schrödinger wave function, which describes sort of the, the, the, the state of a quantum system, is that touching on the outside of consciousness? Is that as close as we can get with mathematics?

Oh, of course, of course; in fact, that, you know, we have to go way beyond Schrödinger's equation; we had to go into the Rocks equation, but even beyond that, we had to go to quantum fields, so, and quantum information, and quantum information goes beyond the concepts of quantum fields. In fact, the only physicist that's been able to show the quantum physics derives from quantum information is an Italian physicist, Jacopo Maria D'Ariano, University of Pavia, and it took me 15, 20 years to, to do that, and it show that you can derive all the equations of quantum physics from quantum bits. So you remember probably about John Wheeler, you know, it from bit?

Yeah, he had the, the original intuition that information had to be more profound, more deeper than matter; it from bit; so the bit was deeper, but it should, should have said it from qubit, but never mind, because the deeper information is quantum information, and D'Ariano and his collaborators prove that you can derive quantum physics from quantum information. Yeah, so quantum information now becomes the ontology based on D'Ariano's work.

What would be a way for people to understand what quantum information really is? So is basically, instead of having bits, you know, arrangements of bits, you have arrangements of quantum bits; a quantum bit; imagine a quantum bit as a one of an infinite possibilities that can be represented as a point on the surface of a sphere. So you have a sphere; every point on the surface of the sphere, which would correspond into a direction in 3D, is one of the possible states. So a qubit implies an infinity of states, but when you make a measurement, only you can find zero or one. So, and you cannot, when you make a measurement, you disturb this quantum bits, so you don't, you know, you basically you disturb it in the direction in which you make the measurement, and you get zero or one, and that's it. Yeah, in any direction that you measure you get zero or one, but you don't get zero one repeatedly; you get it with some probability. So, so the quantum physics doesn't tell you what the next state is; it only can tell you the probability of all the possible states that you can measure. So in the case of a quantum bit, it tells you if you measure in, in this direction, let's say, it tells you the probability that you get a zero or one, but it doesn't tell you that you get a zero or one. So the fundamental difference between quantum physics and classical physics is that quantum physics is indeterminate, meaning it doesn't tell you; he only can tell you probability, but not the probability of what you will measure; no, the probability of all the possible things can measure. Okay, and, and the, the to go from this probability field to what you will measure, there is no physics; there is the collapse of the wave function; it's just a way of saying that we don't know; basically, you go from, you have an interaction between the, the fields and an instrument that does a measurement, and somehow in this interaction you get one state, but, but that state that you get, you can only know the probability, and you don't know how you get that state; not only that, but we know that that state is random, but also their randomness is not algorithmic; is beyond algorithms, and that's the rub; that's where, that's where free will is in this theory; with D'Ariano we say free will is what is happening; we, what we call collapse of the wave function is a free will decision of the field, of whatever particle you're measuring. And because that's interesting, because I always thought, because the, the rule of large numbers, when we do quantum measurements over and over, a thousand times, then we get

Again, a probabilistic, or sorry, a deterministic world, because you then just get a a a wave function that will give you Sur, but inside the cell you only you only get one, you only one, you do one thing at a time; you don't do you don't repeat the things. Yeah, now I get it; that's that's crazy, that's crazy. Um, let's try and really understand this. Okay.

Classical information is information we can share because it's like a written word that we can kind of show around. I cannot show around what I'm feeling right now to all of you. So the moment I speak a word, I've made a feeling I had; I've turned it into classical information. That's right. You take something which is private, that cannot be reproduced, can only be represented by Quantum information, but the representation is not what you feel; the representation of reality is not reality; a theory of reality is not reality. Okay. So what you feel, only you, not not body, you field can actually know, and you know inside, and what you can say about what you feel is a small part of what you feel. Olivos theorem: one bit per Quantum bit, and the quantum bits are entangled, so they're they have States in common; with the bits, don't have States in common, zero or one; there is nothing else, but Quantum bits may have States in common, meaning that the probability, the two probabilities are connected, and to show this connection you cannot do you you have to describe the quantum state in Hilbert space, which is a nend dimensional space with complex Dimensions, where the dimensions are complex numbers. You know, it's just enough to give you a headache, right? But that's what you need; you cannot represent them in this way.

So what does it mean that there is a deeper reality where where the feelings and the fields exist, the meaning of information exist, that and from that world you have this world that is a classical world where you can get classical information, and we think that the only world, that world that exist is this world, but this world we have constructed with our bodies and is a way to look at it. I think you have this metaphor yet in in in in Silicon, that would it be like consciousness being the field writing a book, and the book itself is our SpaceTime Dimension, our body sitting here, or a film recording a film and showing it, the film shown on the screen of perception? Yeah, but but but the book emerges into into this three-dimensional reality, but but the writer of the book is in a deeper, vaster reality, not not in the book; is not in the book, and my body here, my body here is a sentence in that book; the body is a symbol; it's a symbol of a complexity which is unfathomable for now. Okay, people will find this um crazy idea; it is crazy, but it is it is much closer to the truth than what you get from the scientism. Yeah, because that I wanted to ask if we, it's crazy, but quantum theory is crazy, so if we have the other explanation, if we don't want to go to Consciousness, if we say no, it still matter all the way down, how then uh where do we then end up with in interpreting Quant mechanics? Then we have to go like many worlds or or how how do you, there is no interpretation that anybody can agree on for the 100 years. No, I mean this problem has been discussed for a 100 years, and there is no interpretation whatsoever about quantum physics. Couldn't we say there's a Multiverse with everything possible being possible in other dimensions? Yeah, but but but but does doesn't explain anything. What what what is it explaining when I say Consciousness and Free Will must be taken as foundational as a postulate? Okay, but why do I say that? Because postulates ought to be self-evident; the condition to accept the posture is is a self-evident; why is a self-evident? Because you and I are conscious; you and I know that we have limited, but we have free will; limited, but we have it; so we know already that, how can you explain Free Will and conscience with something that doesn't have either? You cannot explain it. How can you explain Consciousness with math when is conscious that created math? When can you explain Free Will with something doesn't have free will? You see, it's foolish to think that you know that you can explain, you know more with less, and today we talk about emerging properties; you know, we explain everything with emergentism; what does it mean emergencies? How can you get more with less? You cannot; you can be you can get less from more; you can get determinism from indeterminism; you can get unconsciousness from Consciousness, not the other way around, and that's so simple and so common sense, but science doesn't want to go there; why scientism doesn't want to go there? Why? Because you lose your power; because if I know the equations I'm know more than you, and that's not acceptable because nobody knows the equations because they Reen know there is no equations that describe Free Will; Free Will is an act that no laws can tell what the Free Will can give you, and people want to predict the future; their safety is in the prediction of the future; their sense of power is in prediction the future; you cannot predict the future because it's based on Free Will; no no body wants to go there right now, but that's the only way to go to be safe from this idea that we are machines and the artificial intelligence will best us.

Your postulate of free will, you experience Free Will, isn't that Just an Illusion? I mean, does Free Will Truly exist or is it something we think we have? Why do you people that say this, you have to ask them why, why do you insist that there is no free will? What do you get by insisting that there is no free will? Think deeply about that; what do you get by thinking that there is no free will, that you do not have any free will? Why do you want that? And if you answer that question, they have to answer that question, but if they answer that question they will find out more about themselves, and eventually they will have to agree that they are they have a hidden desire to control, to have power because they know the equations; they know more than you; that's the point. I mean, I was there; I was, you know, I had taken the same courses; I learned the same physics, and if I did not have this experience that told me that I'm more, I couldn't be here saying these things, but now I can, you know, with this experience I was able to invert our understanding and pointing the way to a different way to understand, so you know if it's it will be found to be, but but don't say there is just because you don't want to even think about it, and that's the problem today, people, the the first time they hear a wrong the wrong war from them, they shut off and not you know they don't even want to think about it, but actually the reason why we know is because we're conscious; the reason why we know is be because we're conscious because Consciousness is what allows us to know; computers don't know; it's foolish to think the computers understand; they don't understand; there is no meaning in the bits; the meaning can only be Quantum; can only be something that exist in the fields; it doesn't even it doesn't even exist existing Quantum information; Quantum information can only represent what we know is meaning; you see mathematics stops there for now, but there is a new math to be developed to go from qualia, qualia which is Sensations and feelings that can be represented by Quantum information; Quantum information cannot represent the meaning; they represent the qualia; that's all they can do, which is how we feel, but qua is the beginning of the inner Journey; qualia are the Bringers of meaning, and we look for meaning first; comprehension and then meaning; comprehension gets you to meaning; meaning is the essence of comprehension; meaning is what you get after you got it; you know, I got it; I understand it now; that's you know that's beyond comprehension; your comprehension is a path to meaning, and meaning is the ontology; the ontology is in the meaning, in the experience and what we feel and what we know from within, not outside.

If you say meaning is the ontology, so meaning is what ultimately exists in our universe? Yeah, yeah, but in order to make it more understandable, I start with a postulate; I start this all basic reframing with the postulate because I'm joining science and spirituality; I'm joining the outer and the inner; science is about the outer world, but meaning, experience, Consciousness, Free Will is about the inner world, and right now they are separate; there is the spiritual people that you know think that this exist, but you know phys you know the scientist say that doesn't mean the these guys look at those guys say matter doesn't care, you know, so so there is this separation now between science and spirituality; this way of thinking brings them together; they integrate them; don't don't just oppose them; they integrate; they become one; they become one. So how do we start? So if we want to start like a new Theory, I start with a postulate because you had to because you can never you can never start with something that is true because you have shown to be true; you have to start with postulate; even in math you start with postulate taken to be true, and they had to be self-evident. Yeah, it's your ground assumption; ground assumption, but but that ground assumption has to be self-evident; the ground Assumption of quantum physics, they are so self-evident that you have to study 10 years before you say oh yeah there are they are evident, not self-evident; they are evident after 10 years, so they don't pass the test of self-evidence to me. Okay, now I'm going to tell you a postulate that is self-evident: one, the totality of what exist; one, the totality of what exist has three properties; dynamic, dynamic means is never the same instant after instant; is holistic, means it's not made of separable parts, and so far I have described the universe describ by quantum physics yeah as all this three, you know, is all the resist Dynamic holistic; I add one more thing, one more quality; one wants to know itself; one wants to know itself. Now this comes from perennial philosophy; knowing th know thyself was in the you know in the deli Dy you know Temple, you know, it was part of the you know part of the Greek some of the Greek philosophers, but the vadas were saying the same thing; all the basic experiences of the deeper the people that went deeper into the understanding of reality come to the same general conclusion that there is one that has those properties, and they want to know itself. If I look Within Myself, what do I wanted to know when I was suffering? Who am I? Why am I here? Why am I suffering? That's what does it mean I want to know myself. So we all want to know ourselves; we all deep down then we forget about it because we can do nothing about it, so we go you know we go we try to solve the problem by you know going outside ourselves, and then we lose ourselves like I did, and then you know, so if we start there as it you know is it self-evident? It it was it is self-evident to me, and if you think a little bit it's self-evident to you that that's what you want. Okay, so wanting means free will, because if if if you are a machine, what what do you want as a machine? The next state of the machine is already defined by the algorithm; what do you want doesn't make any sense; I don't want anything, but the question doesn't even make; there are no questions to a machine; there are only answers to a machine; so and know to know itself one must be conscious because conscious is what allows one to know itself; so you have def I Define Free Will and Consciousness and and why are those self-evident because you are conscious and you have free will and I conscious and I have free will; so more self-evident than that what is there? And if I start there I can explain quantum physics by that postulate; I can explain what physicist in a 100 years have not understood; Quantum information is the representation of inner experience, and the collapse of the way function is the representation of my free of the free will; what more do you want?

I think it's a great Theory because in bridging, as you say, science and spirituality, um the two are thought very distinct and very separate, right? Because the the the um well it makes me think I interviewed Donald Hoffman who you know, right? I think your foundation supports his work, right? Um for about five years, and and he said something that stuck with me that he said that all these spiritual Traditions that in a sense are saying what you are saying, that Consciousness is fundamental; one wants to know itself, and then we have all the Incarnation stories of the Gods who incarnate Etc, so we know those stories, but the fact that they've always remained so elusive, so mystical, he said is nothing to be proud of; we should be like more concrete; we have also our rational faculty; we have science, so we now need to approach this with our sort of scientific mindset; so is that what you're trying to do here, right? What what is more concrete than what I just said? Yeah, and can it lead I mean you know now with if you start here we can show the science that that not science the the quantum physics out of which everything else emerges; in fact Quantum information because the quantum state that is representation of our experience is what then eventually determines the outer world. Okay, so I show that by starting with the H something that is kind of haha, you know, but it doesn't get you anywhere; actually needs the physics that exists, and now from there we go; we already solve the other problems; I I'm not changing anything of physics; I'm reinterpreting completely what physics has been talking about; what do you want more? Is that is that Dawn wants to explain Consciousness with mathematics, and you can not do that because Consciousness creates mathematics; I wanted to do the same thing for many years, and then I found out that I was wrong; that it is consciousness that explains math, and therefore you go from Consciousness to math; you cannot go from math to Consciousness because where does math come from otherwise is what who created math? God? What come on? Yeah, how does math exist? It's our Creation in human mind.

You bet, Federo, you have it was your intuition that led to your inventions that have uh changed the world um I think it's fair to say that or help change the world; now you have this Grand uh intuition, your theory about Consciousness; how can this also lead to technology or to something Tangible? Can we test it? Is it falsifiable? Of course it is; in fact, the next step for is to now that I have a theory which is absolutely perfect in meaning, it can be falsified; it can make it it can make you know predictions, and you can test the prediction. Can you name one? Oh yes, I can predict you know the trees are conscious, and I can make experiments that show that trees are conscious. Okay, and trees and no brain, so Consciousness that is supposed to be coming off our brain, it comes off a tree that has no brain; look at that; what do you think of that? It's amazing. Yeah, is this being done? I will do that. Yeah, I cannot tell you how because I you know I have to prove it, and don't worry about it; I will do that, and um [Laughter] all right, okay, trees are yeah, but you actually have a a a method, a scientific method of of of testing this. Yes, I I will not not discuss it any further; I will say you know would you agree with me that if I do that I have disprove the Consciousness is a product of the human brain or of the animal brain? Def is that good? All right, I will do that; that's a deal. Then you have proven that it takes Sals, right? Then we are are sort of on a cellular LEL. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I would prove that. Yeah, you sure of that? Absolutely. Take me to task; I'll get it; I can guarantee you that I will get it; the something that people say they don't they cannot say anything; they will not have any objection anymore. See, entanglement took over 30 years to prove that entanglement exist after the first experiment showed it exist because people didn't scientists didn't want entanglement; Einstein didn't want entanglement, so everybody you know Einstein, how can Einstein be wrong? So for 50 years you could do the experiments. Okay, finally when you could do experiments, the first experiment that proved that Al aspe with got the Nobel Prize 3 years ago, four years ago was anyways he did that. Okay, then oh you did wrong; you couldn't do you know blah blah blah; it took more than 30 years after that to you know cancel all the objections, you know, show that the objection were not valid, and finally everybody now has to accept that there is entanglement, but nobody can explain it; entanglement is what connects everything from the inside; is what allows the world to be holistic, which is already what quantum physics is saying.

Yeah, are you predicting I mean many people think of AI a sort of an invention that you were at the birth at right with the in in your work on neural networks that's yeah back in 80 in the 80s, second part of the 80s. Yeah, people now think that AI will cause a paradigm shift; what what's your response to that? Do you think that Ai No, only this Theory will cause a paradigm shift and not not because I'm is a theory that I develop, but only by changing the the understanding of who we are can change can change a paradigm; in fact, the Paradigm ends with AI; this Paradigm of scientism ends with AI because AI is saying we machines will be better than us, which is crazy; why does anybody want AI despite that? Why does anybody want AI to be better than us? But AI cannot be better than us because creativity is non-algorithmic; is not changing things randomly, and you know because besides even if AI gives you a good idea, AI doesn't know that it is a good idea; you recognize the good idea of AI; still needs your with your Consciousness with your understanding with your comprehension, and that's why AI can help us, and I I applaud what has happened AI, but not the AI bests us, and not the way AI unfortunately will be used to monetize us; that's not acceptable. I agree; I agree; I think you would also fully agree to that quote by Nicola Tesla, right? The the he has this famous saying that the moment science will start studying Consciousness more will be ACH achieved in a decade than in the whole history of science. Absolutely, because we change the way we are; you know, thoughts are more important than stuff, right? I mean, from the inside you get the outside, not vice versa, and and science doesn't recognize the existence of the inside because conscience is phenomenon of the brain; the brain makes decision that informs your conscience; we don't know what it is, but it doesn't have any cause of power, so who cares? Once we people are convinced that there is that we are conscious, that we are filled, that when the body dies we don't die; I mean that's a good news, right? I mean, you know, people want you to discharge the your conscience and experience in the computer and live forever for Christ sake; I mean, you know, you know about transhumanism; I mean, you know, I mean, why do we need to do that? Besides, you know, you need to have a lot of money to pay for a billion years of electricity to keep you alive in a computer, so this is only a good recipe for very rich people, right? To live forever on a computer; you know the computer has sucks energy, right? So to make you live forever you have to have a lot of money before you die to give to people that tell you that you continue to die; are you sure that you will be continued to die in a computer you know a thousand years later? I I fully agree.

Where could this where could this lead to if that Tesla quote is true? If we would fully dedicate ourselves in trying to understand Consciousness with your theory, Even build technology with it, where could we be in a decade? I mean, could we break out of SpaceTime? Could we sort of live forever? What what are, once you understand that that Consciousness is beyond matter, Beyond this space and time, we already know that we can explore this world by going out of body with our Consciousness, and millions of people they go out of body explores other realities; Consciousness is the tool for knowing infinitely more powerful than any instrument that we have ever built; we build billions of dollar instruments to find out what the particles you know are doing, but Consciousness is far far richer, so we we basically then we can begin to explore the universe, the invisible Universe, the invisible what Mystics and and sort of uh sages and and and in religions have been doing for thousands of years, but also a bit in a way that sometimes led to um the waging of Wars because people want again sort of um use it for for politics. Can we transcend that then? What is the ultimate dream you have for society? But when you understand who you are, you know that the only way to work together is cooperation, not competition; today there is only competition; today the purpose of life is the survival or the fittest; is there anything worse than that as a purpose of life? Besides, if you ask me how do you define Fitness, the only definition that would give you is oh fitter is the one that survives; so what kind of a law is that, the survival of the what survives? I mean, is it's toogy; it's not even it's it's not even informative, so we believe but you know that that definition of life is so wrong because it basically imped imps you to be cooperative; impedes you impedes us to work together to understand, but once you have a direct experience of who you are, when you are the Observer and the observe, you know directly who you are, and when you know that you know that only cooperation is the game; we have to work together; that's the only way; so competition will die off just by that experience; I cannot be competitive after that experience; I is impossible; you know, competition this this not the competition; the competition that is allowed is that competition that allows me not not me to win, me to be better than what I was the day before.

Yeah, exactly, because only competition that Mak wants to know itself and it's only one, then also uh you're competing with with one is one. Yeah, but that's not competition; there is there is actually the the urge to self to be more than you were; if we have one on the ultimate level and the in in in the quantum fields in unified field, right? How then do we have uh how do we get to the many? How do we get to sort of on a still on a Quantum level you you call you talk about seties, right? How does one get to different or gazillions of seties? Yeah, so so if we start from that uh principle that that postulate, then one you know one wants to know itself, right? So the moment that one knows itself, he has to know completely itself because it's not made of Parts; it cannot know a part of itself; he has to know the totality of itself; but to know itself he has to you know he have a flash; it cannot happen in different times; it has to happen in in an instant that knows itself to in its own totality; in that instant it creates a part hole of itself, just like a myosis, right? The splitting of absolutely; that's where life takes form; life is the reproduction of one; is so fundamental that it is the reproduction of one; one knowing itself creates another one; part all though because it creates many, so it cannot be the totality; so it cannot copy itself, but it creates what is saw what he got what he understood itself to be; that's the identity of the field; the one is created; it's not a copy, you say, but it is a part hole; it's yes; is one is looking at itself in One Direction and one is infinite direction in which he can know itself; the next time that he look itself in a different direction is another part hole is another monad; liess got it, right? Liess was the only

Philosopher, scientist, mathematician, technologist. I mean, it was incredible; mind, he got it right. He understood that, but it was before quantum physics. It was, you know, it was way before, you know, we could make sense of it, but he got it right. And I call him, you know, before I knew, you know, of uh, because I didn't study philosophy. I got into what philosophers have been saying by inner experiences and then thinking about it, trying to understand them scientifically and understanding rationally. And I found that many people have said the same things that that I came up to through this process, to this inner process, not by reading books and repeating what I read. So, the sayy—that is sort of the sey—is what I call, I call a field that is conscious and has Free Will and wants to know itself. I call him “s” to distinguish them from the quantum fields, which don't have Consciousness, Free Will, and don't want to know themselves. So, but they have all the characteristics of the quantum fields in in in in the terms of what you can explain of them based on physics, but they go beyond that because their inner life, you know, is beyond physics. So physics can only explain qualia, which is the entry point to the inner world, but from qualia to meaning, as I said, there is comprehension; then meaning is all new physics. And new physics can can only go up to a certain point, and then you have to leave even physics; it's got to go to what we now call metaphysics, but it's what can only be known from the inside. But you know, it will take many centuries to go through, but the the key thing though, it shows that physics now is incomplete because it doesn't even allow the inner world to exist. And the the reason why they struggle for 80 years to to unify quantum physics and general relativity is because the the fundamental concepts of time, space, matter, and energy are wrong. Then they're almost right, but they're not exact, you know, not close to the, not so close to the truth that they allow you to bridge those, you know, to bring together into a unified physical field what is now two separate, two separate, you know, one is a set of fields and the other one is the, you know, SpaceTime, yeah, and gravity, yeah.

And if we say the saty is uh um the say is who we are, yeah, exactly; it's who we are, right, and and and and is a Quantum field with with with this characteristic, yeah, but an identity. The identity is the identity; my identity is how one has seen itself when it created me, yeah. Oh, exactly. You're like a a a like a frame at a c the universe, yeah. Imagine, you know, it's a beautiful way to to understand this. Imagine that you have a multi-dimensional thing; okay, is a multi-dimensional object; multi-dimensional meaning in N, where n is potentially infinite Dimensions. How can you know this object? You can know this object by looking at this object through all the dimensions that are orthogonal that allow you to look at this object; each each each look you see something, then the next look you look, so you're doing a tomography graphy of an n-dimensional thing. So is one doing a tomography on itself? You see, yeah. And and what happens—I mean, for people to understand what happens when we die—and the say, we don't go anywhere because we never were in the body; it's the body that dies; we don't we don't die, but something something changes, right? So, because the same, of course, yeah, the Cy that sees a portion of the S called ego is the portion of the s that thinks to be the body. When the body and so it looks at the information that the body provides about what about this other world seen through the body. So the the, you know, our senses, our brain, you know, takes information from here, but most small part of information, I mean, just just visual, the visual thing that we see, you know, is this narrow band, right? I mean, if I had cell phones instead of eyes, I would actually now be able to listen in to the 30,000 conversations that are going on that are here here here here here; they're all here, yeah, and I could see them; I could hear them; I I could, you know, do this, but I only see this band; there is no, you know, there is no communication in this band; there are other stuff. And we see this world—all we construct it with the body; the body, the output of the body, which is in the cells, is quantum; that out, that Quantum output is what the fields perceive as color, for shapes, sounds, and so on; the qualia, the qualia do not exist in the body; they exist in the field, and the qualia is this are representable with Quantum State. Quantum state is how the quantum field transforms, translates this information in this, which is I call it live information; is a type of information that has not been studied at all, not even imagined at all, which is in between Quantum information and classical information. It is the the stuff that makes the cell work because if you take an electron, take an electron, an electron is matter, energy, and information; can you separate these three in an electron? Is it element particles? There you go. So they are connected; they yeah. And it's like in in the cells; there's no distinction between hardware and software, right? They are like totally mingled; that's right. In in a computer, they are separated because a computer is a deterministic reductionistic structure, yeah, not a cell; not not the deeper aspa.

But basically, you're saying so when the moment I die, the the everything Consciousness remains just this narrow-banded Avatar, like uh VR hats said that expands like—well, basically, you know, I I look, I kind of say in the book uh irreducible, you know, I I I explained this by saying imagine that you control a drone; you know, we are a body controls a drone; there is in Afghanistan, you know, watching around and semi-autonomous, so I don't have to worry about to, you know, I only have to to to express where I wanted to go, so high-level language, you know, say move right or whatever, drop the bomb or whatever, you know, because that's what we do with drones in these days, but you know, so so but anyway, so so now the Drone looks at that reality where it is, sends me information, and I get the I get the conscious experience of what the Drone is seeing; that conscious experience is not in my body; is in my Consciousness, and based on that and based on my free will, I tell the Drone what to do; the Drone doesn't know anything. Now take this image, oh, and when they, you know, somebody shoot it down, you know, shoot it down, you know, you were so focused on that drone that you only saw what the Drone was seen because you were piloting it and you were concentrated; then when the Drone doesn't send you in a you look around you say, oh my God, there is another world here; you see, yeah. That's that's the same thing; the egg, the ego, when the body dies, you know, it doesn't look at the signals of the body anymore, and he looks around, oh, I'm wow, look at this, and is it then—I mean, is it then are we sitting there then say these level Quantum saying, okay, let's go in again; here's another headset, try this one on, and there we are again, and a baby? And it perhaps, but I cannot tell you what happens afterwards, but but certainly, but certainly there are lots of, you know, near-death experiences that are actually, you know, giving you evidence of what I'm saying; you know, people that arrive at the hospital, heart doesn't beat, brain doesn't have any electrical signals; they are clinically dead; they're not dead clearly if they are resuscitated, but but they are for all practical purposes dead, okay, and they have an experience in the hospital; they see themselves in the operating table; they later tell what's going on while the brain has no electric signal; the brain is not functioning; so how can you be outside of the body looking down at your body in in the operating table? As cannot be explained, right? But of course, now people say the scientist say, well, it's a fantasy; come on, I mean, it's impossible; so that's it, but that's what they do; then they move outside of the, you know, they move in a different environment; they meet people, you know, their parents that were dead and friends that were dead; in some cases, they meet a friend that was that they didn't know that he was dead; then when they woke up, wake up, they they find out that that he died the day before, and they didn't know, and they met this person in that reality, vaster reality; they have an experience of expansion of love and joy and peace, and then somebody tells him here to go back because you haven't done what you were what you came to this world to do, and then they wake up in the post.

But in that sort of drone metaphor, trying to understand this, I' I've always what sort of uh what I hard to understand, okay, so if my body is this drone or or Avatar or just a headset, then say the moment it dies, what headset are you putting on to have like just hover around and and in this this in between space; is that another headset or another? That's a good question; I mean, I I'm asking that question, and there may be—in fact, it's likely that there is another body; I mean, people that have study this thing talk about an astral body, exactly, stuff like that or etheric body, and and uh, you know, so clearly there is another body if this is true, but I believe it's true; I actually went out of body too, so I know that is not imagination; you you know that you are a body like when this energy came out of me; it was energy; it was it was physical; it was not, you know, it was not imagination; it was physical like a like a hydrant; how can I make it up? So there are lots of levels to uh to get to one; there are oh my goodness oh my goodness; I mean, the the quantum field of electrons is in this theory is conscious and has Free Will, and he and he and he knows itself; look at the, you know, and the then what are the electrons doing? The electrons are the symbols that the quantum field uses to communicate with other fields; all the electrons in the universe; how many electrons are in the universe? 10 to the 82, 83, 85; I don't know, but numbers that are imag, you know, unimaginable; just the field of electrons and all these electrons are its communication to the other fields to know itself. How many Quantum fields are there or can there be? 17. Yeah, I'm I'm asking because people you also um call it quip, right? Quantum information panpsychism, yeah, and panpsychism is of course um I know your version of it is different, but is sort of being criticized for the fact that you have the combination problem, right? Why? Oh, the there is no combination problem; the combination problem only in classical psychism; people never have a theory; nobody had a theory of quantum psychism; the combination problem is not a problem in qu in Quantum psychism; when you combine States, Quantum States, you create a new state which is more than the sum of the parts; you can do that infinitely; you can keep on do keep going; you can keep on going, of course you can. So we have solved that problem, and people that people that that say that they don't understand, they don't understand what they're saying or they don't understand what we what we have developed this Theory Quantum, you know, the the combination problem is solved completely, yeah. It's it's classical psychism that doesn't solve the problem because in classical physics the the the the whole is only the sum of the parts; you cannot create a hole that is more than the some of the parts, and that's why I was criticizing emergentism before because people, many physicists think that there is emerging emerging properties in the purely classical World; it cannot be; emergentism requires quantumness, and they don't realize because there is no boundary between classical and Quantum, and so there is a seing from Quantum you go to classical, and then they call emerging property as if he came from the classical; no, it comes every creation comes from the quantum World, from the inner world.

Is there an endpoint to the universe in a sense that can one? No, you already said that the moment it knows itself, it splits off again in another part hole, so this will keep on going forever in this theory? Yes. Uh, I, you know, but who knows, right? I mean, but but certainly there is no, you know, there cannot be any end, and the reason is that, you know, that yourself, the more you know, there the more there is to know because to know more you make connections, new connections, and as you make new connections you open up you open up other possibilities, so it it is an explosive thing. And in again, purely this is hypothetical, but I I think they has possible legs. Why is space expanding faster than light at the at the edges, you know, because is basically there is ever space is like a balloon that that inflates, and this is the very, you know, inflation? No, the inflation was the early part of the universe; this is not called inflation; this is just the the, you know, this is just this is a consequence of having found that there is the university is expanding exponentially at the at the in the Orizon, so which can only be explained if there is a the the the the universe is is growing; the space is growing from within, okay. In in my model, my model space is the memory of the self-knowing of one, and because one knows ever more about itself, space must inflate, must grow exponentially, and you know that you know that Quantum states only exist within a very narrow present, so in order to remember your experience you must put it into long-term memory; that's our Theory also is selling that very clearly. So now this present enriches itself of all the past that you have experienced, but when you want to experience the past you can only experience that in the present, so experience can only exist in the present. Here you uh here you and Bernardo can shake hands as well, and um okay, so free will is fundamental, Consciousness is, and universe wants to know itself, but does it also create a Consciousness, a sayy, in that as a sort of a purpose? Do you think you were born with a certain purpose or sort of that? I think so, yeah, I think so, and and the reason Reon why I am at peace with myself and happy about, you know, my life, what I do is because I I know that I'm doing what I came here to do; I know it, you know, because how can I, you know, I wake up with new ideas; why, you know, but they all connect; all this stuff that I'm talking to you about, you know, it's like my mind keeps on running around finding where there are holes and in understanding is is not complete or whatever, you know; why am I doing that? It's beautiful, and it and what it sort of rings with me is that that that the Universe then somehow is thinking to itself, okay, let's look to me because it's one from this different perspective, and let's really do that; let's become Federico, let's become Hans, let's become—that's right—and and really look at ourselves from that perspective, from that perspective, and then you know, but then then you and I can know each other, can and enter into resonance by communicating because I cannot directly give you what I'm what I know and what I feel, right, and likewise for you, so we had to communicate, and that communication brings into inner resonance, and if we keep on doing that after a while we if we can create the same state internally, you and I, from that Unity of State, then the just like the quantum superposition, then you get a new entity, but that new entity does not destroy who we are; basically, we we can create another Society like us, like one create because we have the same properties of one, right, except with one point of view instead of the multiplicity of Point points of view of one. So I create I can create another another Cy like myself, but not copy myself. So when the this when we reach that you and I create another society, and the two join and they become one, which is with the two points of view, join the two points of view, mine are yours, you know that now become a new combined point of view that now has its own life, and you know, it proceeds. What that takes what that takes is like truly connecting; you said coming becoming into resonance, which is something different than just exchanging classical information, right? Yeah, that's right, but that that that resonance means is a new Quantum State; we are building a new Quantum state which is the a common understanding; the common understanding creates a new Society of a higher level; so we create a higher cities; so we are a very high level, but there are still many levels above us, and this is where things can take off because if we look at the world right now at AI, we're talking classical information; we're shutting ourselves off behind screens sharing classical information with our bits; it's not this information you're talking about; not at all; not at all. And and and besides, we gave that knowledge to the computer; didn't build it itself; I mean, we we gave him the data; we exposed him to that information, even if it's oh, in order to do everything by itself, yeah, sure, yeah, tell me about it; it's all I mean, and yet is very useful, so I'm I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm actually happy with if if AI was used properly, it could speed up our our self-knowing and everything else very rapidly, but I'm afraid that if we don't change it will not be used in this form, yeah. That's all. Thank you so much, Federico. Um, my pleasure. Yeah, it's been a great talk; amazing, amazing. Thank you so much; thank you so much. [Music]