Transcription
Elon Musk is probably US President Donald Trump's most influential ally. The tech billionaire has served as an unofficial adviser to Trump, will head up his new Department of Government Efficiency, or Doge, and he played a prominent role on the campaign trail. You might even call Musk Trump's right-hand man.
And speaking of right hands, during a speech celebrating Trump's inauguration, Musk made this pretty striking gesture: "You know, there are elections. Elections, they come and go. Some elections are, you know, important, some are not. But this one, this one, this one really mattered. And I just want to say thank you for making it happen." [Applause] "You, my heart goes out to you."
That was pretty explicit, right? He's not an idiot; like, he's a smart guy. He knows what he's doing, right? He's not a... I mean, he's an idiot by sort of many definitions of the word, but he's a highly intelligent man, right? I think he knows what he's doing.
As you can imagine, Musk's gesture has created an avalanche of reaction, and there was a fair amount of debate over whether it even was a Nazi salute. Andrea Stropper, an adviser to Musk based in Italy, posted this: "That gesture, which some mistook for a Nazi salute, is simply Elon, who has autism, expressing his feelings by saying, 'I want to give my heart to you,' and that is exactly what he communicated into the microphone."
Elon dislikes extremists. Now, if you've been following Elon on Twitter for the past few weeks, you'll know that one of his main priorities seems to be to free Tommy Robinson, a man who has been to prison multiple times in this country for contempt of court and for violence, who is sort of a far-right street punk.
Musk also has endorsed the AFD, a far-right German party, and many of their leading members have found themselves sort of breaking German law by using Nazi slogans. So this is not... it's not like, "Oh no, Elon Musk would never associate with Nazis, so it couldn't possibly have been a hail Hitler sign." Well, it so happens that he's always hanging out with Nazis. Kind of just what he does. Kind of seems to be one of the ways he passes time.
And now he's doing these H Hitler salutes, or I should say he hangs out with people who are Nazi-adjacent. Maybe I'll do that in case he's sort of going to have beef. Even some of Musk's critics were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, though, well, not really. This was John Stewart on The Daily [Applause] Show: "Okay, charitably, I'm going to say that was just an awkward 'my heart goes out to you' gesture. Any of you might have done it like this. You know, even Taylor Swift has done the, you know, my heart, but she almost never does the 'goes out to you'—like just always stays with. But you know, listen, it's a nerve-wracking day. You're not normally a public speaker. It's a one-off gesture. Please try not to use it [Applause] again."
"Son of a... you really want to make sure the people in the back see it."
I guess others weren't in the mood to joke about Musk's gesture. Democratic Congressman Jerry Nadler, who, like John Stewart, is Jewish, posted this on X: "I never imagined we would see the day when what appears to be a high Hitler salute would be made behind the presidential seal. This abhorrent gesture has no place in our society and belongs in the darkest chapters of human history. I urge all of my colleagues to unite in condemning this hateful gesture for what it is: anti-Semitism."
LBC's James O'Brien also, I think, had quite a good challenge for anyone who disagreed: "It's also legal to give the Nazi salute in Germany and in Austria, so anybody minded to tell me that that's not what Elon Musk was doing must encourage him to go and do it in Germany and see what happens. And in fact, if you don't think it was a Nazi salute, why don't you do it at parents' night next time you're at your kid's school? Or just do it now if you're at work and see what happens. I think that's probably the best way to test it. Do it. Make sure you do it twice as well, and make sure you hit your chest first before you throw your arm in the air."
No one else is... you know, you've got someone who's always flirting with the far right. Always flirting. I mean, he's not flirting; he's always actively endorsing the far right, right? That's something he does publicly all the time.
And I don't think you can find any... you know, if this was just sort of like an accidental salute that sometimes people make, surely we would be able to find someone else who'd gone... you know, people keep sort of showing these screenshots where it's quite easy to find a sort of still of someone where their arm looks like that. But it's quite rare.
And that is what you... there's loads of sort of tweets out today sort of showing Nazis on demo exactly what they do. They sort of pump their chest and then put their arm out sort of straight in that fascist salute. So, I mean, you know, Ockham's razor suggests the guy has some Nazi sympathies.
And of course, there were others who also saw a Nazi salute. These guys loved it, though. The white nationalist group White Lives Matter posted this on Telegram in response to the gesture: "Thanks for sometimes hearing us, Elon. The White Flame will rise again."
And then, I mean, this is a photoshopped image: "Elon Musk: Stop White Genocide." That's sort of a very strong far-right meme. Elon Musk has added his own response to the reaction: "Frankly, they need better dirty tricks. That 'everyone is Hitler' attack is so tired now."
I mean, you know, there’s potentially a case to be made that sort of like the Hitler analogy is made too often, but this is literally a guy who has allied with a party that's broken laws for using Nazi slogans. Once Tommy Robinson is freed, and Tommy Robinson was a member of the BNP, a Neo-Nazi party, and he's done what looks very much like a Nazi salute twice on stage.
Kieran, I think you know in the studio we were discussing this, and I think lots of people will be having the same thoughts at the moment, which is, you know, I said Ockham's razor suggests he's got Nazi sympathies. I think, you know, given that he's an intelligent person, this is probably a controversy he's invited.
You know, I think probably he enjoyed the fact that everyone is now sort of debating whether or not that gesture was a Nazi salute. And that means sort of the temptation is, should we ignore it? Should we get outraged? Should we say it's... you know, I don't know what I... I'll leave this as an open question: how do you think we should respond to this kind of thing?
So first things first, I dispute that he's highly intelligent, but I know what you mean. He's got something obvious besides 300 billion dollars. But, um, I dispute he's highly intelligent. You know, he's the son of an emerald mine owner who's failed upwards, and I suppose that does require a certain judah.
But, you know, to the point, I mean, I see no reason to give Elon Musk any kind of benefit of the doubt. It seems pretty clear to me that it was a Zeke Heil. And you know what? It makes me, watching it back there, think it's almost like when you say to people, "Oh, I'm going to be on... I'm going to have this platform, or I'm going to be on this show, or I'm going to be on this radio show," and they say, "Oh, drop this in, joke in. You know, why don't you find a way to say this in a joking way that sort of, you know, flows and doesn't, you know, pique the interviewer's 'What are you talking about?' kind of thing."
And I wouldn't be surprised if his alternative for Deutsch buddies or some other Nazis or fascists that he knocks around with didn't say to him, "I bet you couldn't do a Zeke Heil in front of the presidential banner on the day of the inauguration." He said, "I let me show you that I can." There's something of that about it to me.
I think another interesting related phenomenon I've noticed today that I just want to quickly highlight because I do think it has relevance to other discussions that we often have on this show. I noticed that the editor-at-large of the Jewish Chronicle, Steven Pollard, tweeted something like, "Oh, give over. You don't really believe that it was a Nazi salute. You're just... something to the effect that you've got leftist brain worms or you've been programmed to think that way," etc., etc.
I mean, Steven Pollard has been at the forefront of every single mob and witch hunt trying to associate the most innocuous things with anti-Semitism if they are in any way critical of Israel. And what that says to me is that the medium is the message for these people. I mean, we've known it for a long time, but it's another piece of evidence that the medium is the message.
In other words, you could get away with doing a Zeke Heil in public and not be called anti-Semitic if only you will shill for and support Israeli war crimes. I think that's one of the more interesting aspects of all of this that I've come across today.
Anyway, as for everything else, he's an attention seeker, of course he is. He's half-rain dead, of course he is. Should we not talk about it? Unfortunately, it's too serious. It's kind of comical because it's so absurd, but it is also serious precisely because he does knock around with and lends, we assume, tremendous financial support to the international far right.
Now, amongst all the heat generated by Elon Musk's hand gesture, there was one reaction that really rubbed people up the wrong way. The Anti-Defamation League is a New York-based organization that was founded to tackle anti-Semitism. And while Israel was busy raising Gaza to the ground, the ADL found plenty of examples of anti-Jewish hate.
This was ADL President Jonathan Greenblatt on MSNBC last year: "And if you wouldn't tolerate it if someone is wearing a swastika on their arm, I'm sorry, you shouldn't tolerate it if you're wearing a kafir." The way that video cuts out, that's from the original. I think he didn't have the best internet connection, but you saw there he was saying that wearing a kafir, it's a sort of cultural item that symbolizes, I suppose, solidarity with the Palestinians. That's the same as having a swastika.
So this is someone who seems to be clearly very, very sensitive and very, very sort of willing to put out the idea that, "Oh no, that's nasty adjacent. That's NY adjacent." Even when it's completely obvious, it goes without saying it's completely, completely outrageous.
But given that, you might find it a little surprising how relaxed the ADL seems when it comes to Musk doing a literal Hail Hitler symbol from a stage. So the ADL said, "This is a delicate moment." This is in response to Musk. "It's a new day, and yet so many are on edge. Our politics are inflamed, and social media only adds to the anxiety. It seems that Elon Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute. But again, we appreciate that people are on edge in this moment. All sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt, and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let's hope for healing and work towards unity in the months and years ahead."
Now, in a way, you know, reading that tweet, I think there are sort of elements of that tweet where I sort of... I kind of do get the sentiment. I often say it's important for us to give sort of people grace, perhaps give people the benefit of the doubt. Don't necessarily assume the worst; try to assume the best.
But this is from an organization whose leader went on national television and said, "If you wear the kafir, Palestinian scarf, you are basically a Nazi." Right? This is not an organization that likes to give other sides a bit of grace. This is an organization that loves to call Nazis unless they happen to support Israel, even if they're doing literally Nazi salutes on stage.
Of course, some have long accused the ADL of being a front for Israeli rather than Jewish interests. This article in The Nation accused the ADL of being Israel's attack dog in the US and asked why the media still treated it as a credible source. If that's right, then Musk's proximity to the very pro-Israel president may make him a figure worth defending.
In response to the ADL, Trump tweeted. Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez posted this: "Just to be clear, you are defending a Hail Hitler salute that was performed and repeated for emphasis and clarity. People can officially stop listening to you as any sort of reputable source of information. Now you work for them. Thank you for making that crystal clear to all."
And I said, by the way, Elon Musk is sort of close to Trump, who's very pro-Israel. Elon Musk has also done a lot of posing with Netanyahu. This is probably going to be a wake-up call to lots of people about the ADL.
Right, Kieran? I would hope so. I would hope so. And sorry to veer away from that immediately. I'm happy to return to it, but it made me think, listening to everything you were just saying then, Michael.
But this is a controversial thing to say, maybe, but I often feel as a Palestinian that we're more hated by some ardent Zionists than Nazis. And yeah, everything that I've just read and seen firms up that suspicion, unfortunately.
As for the AFD, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I really don't know if it will wake anybody up. I fear, and I'll relate it back to what I said at the beginning of the show when I was talking in the context of Trump's executive orders, that the real challenge for the left now is to not allow the vicious cycle to continue.
The vicious cycle being that the electorate votes for leaders who are socially far-right in many cases, economically, you know, shock doctrine levels neoliberal, and which implement the policies that lead to the corrosion of social relations. But instead of turning to the left in the face of that process, they turned back to and further to the right of the same demagogues that offered them the solutions in the first place.
Partly because of the nature of the media class and many other factors, breaking that cycle is the major challenge facing us. And of course, the AFD, Elon Musk, Tommy Robinson, all of them are part of that. All of them are part of that alignment. So yeah.