Transcription
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep. Every male among you must be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you."
"It would be a what?"
"It will be a sign of the covenant between."
"Not the covenant, it's a sign of the covenant?"
"Who is he speaking to?"
"He He's speaking to Abraham. It's not the covenant, it's the sign of the covenant?"
"Hold on. Is he telling Abraham that this sign is not part of the covenant?"
"It's Is it a sign of the covenant or is it the covenant?"
"It's a sign of the covenant."
"Okay, so what's the covenant?"
"The covenant that he get Man, are you brain dead?"
"What? No, what's the actual covenant? What is the circumcision a sign of?"
"I genuinely think you're just dumb. I'm sorry."
"Oh, you don't know what the actual covenant is, huh?"
"I just."
"Is Elijah Jordan's little brother. Man, you know what? When people see me in person, they don't talk like this. But for some reason, online, George has got so much more emotion in me. I can't even say nothing. Cuz in person, people like, 'Oh, is this your your mentor? Your Padawan?' And I'll be I'll be having to say, 'No, no, like he is my equal.' Like I have to convince people. They'd be like, 'Nah.' They'd be fighting me on it. I'd be They'd be like, 'Nah.' I'd be like, 'No, like he really is. He's my equal.'"
"Hey, what's going on, everybody?"
"What's up, man?"
"Not much, not much. Hey, so all right, when you ask why I'm not a Christian, I mean, the question is a little bit vague. You know, are you talking about Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Jehovah's Witness? Which type of Christian?"
"Catholic. Not Jehovah's Witness, for sure."
"All right. So what So that should be your prompt. I recommend it, but cuz they they dismiss the question."
"You want me to say what? Like I don't have a I don't have a specific problem right now with Methodist, Anglicans, Lutheran. I don't got I'm not There's no smoke with them. I'm talking about people who believe in Trinitarian Christianity."
"Well, there's Unitarian Christianity, so you should say Unitarian."
"Well, see that's subjective conjecture."
"No, it There was formal definitions about what Christianity was that was literally proclaimed."
"When was that written? Nicene Creed or."
"Well, you have obviously the Nicene Creed and then you also have scripture."
"Mhm. So, that same scripture is it the New Testament?"
"Yeah."
"Okay, and you use I I guess you're a Catholic Roman Catholic, I take it."
"Okay."
"All right, so are you familiar with the Catechism?"
"Yeah."
"Amen."
"He reads it every day."
"Perfect. So, we can pull up Catechism 121 to 130?"
"You say Catechism what?"
"121?"
"To 130?"
"Yeah."
"Damn, you want you want to read all of them?"
"Well, I'll start I'll read 121 for you just to keep it keep it brief and save the time and the water."
"120?"
"121."
"121."
"Mhm. If you want to I have it in front of me, I can read it for you."
"The Old Testament is an indispensable part of sacred scripture. Its books are divinely inspired uh and retain a permanent value for the old covenant has never been revoked. Indeed, the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ Redeemer of all men even though they contain matters of imperfect and provisional uh they they they contain matters imperfect and provisional. The books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of divine saving love. These writings uh are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God uh and of sound wisdom in human life."
"what what what point are you trying to get at, bro?"
"Yeah."
"Yeah, yeah, of course. So, my point is there's complete contradictions in the accounts of So, and and and and let me give you some other reference points and then I'll build you I'll give you a bunch of positive."
"Just give the argument. Just He He knows the catechism like the back of his hand. So, just just give the argument."
"Excellent. So, the Old Testament contradicts the New Testament many ways and many times."
"You could have just started with that. That's really what."
"Well, this is a more honest way. I have to substantiate my I like to work backwards. That's how I debate. Um cuz I I'll give you my evidence. I'm not just going to say things without evidence, right?"
"But what contradicts it though? Cuz, you know."
"Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. So, there's many contradictions. I mean, if we're going to talk about, you know, um the books of Paul, which seven of only 13 of them were confirmed and even of those seven."
"Just bring out the contradictions, bro. We don't need to."
"let me let me pull them up one second."
"Hey, yo, Eli, I'm going to trust this one to you, brother."
"Why? You know, I don't And the way he left is crazy."
"Do you believe that Jesus holds eternal subordination?"
"Eternal subordination?"
"Yeah. He's eternally subordinate. You know you know Bought by Blood? I had a long discussion with him."
"That's crazy. But, no."
"Yeah, yeah. And okay, he's he's got about 200,000 followers. I don't I'm not a religious streamer. I work in different fields, but I like to come on here cuz I've read a lot of the works and there's a lot of things that have holes in them. And so, he couldn't answer this as well as I went to Catholic school myself and they couldn't answer this. So, Jesus is eternally subordinate to God, but there's subsistence. You believe that he's co-equal, three persons in divine."
"hold that Jesus is eternally subsistent. I mean, sub uh subordinate to God."
"Well, as a Trinitarian, you should, because many Trinitarians do."
"The Trinitarian No Trinitarian believes that Jesus is eternally."
"Are you sure? Let's pull it up right now."
"Okay, bro."
"So, historic they reject the idea that Jesus is essentially or ontologically subordinate. But, however, traditional Trinitarianism, rooted in creeds like Nicene and Athanasianism, maintains that the Father, Son are equal in power, but there is subordination. Let's pull it up here as well. I'll give you the links in the uh."
"eternally subordinate? Well, I mean, that he would have to be subordinate in nature. And if you just read it that they are equal in nature."
"All right. So, in the Old Testament, and I'll tell you why I'm saying this. Now, I'll give you the verses, and that's why even Trinitarians believe that the the eternal subordination, even within Trinitarian, creates even more denominations and interpretations."
"The Catholic Church they will say that, bro."
"Matthew 5:17."
"Okay."
"says, sure, let's let's talk about the the law from I'm going to again bring up OT to NT contradictions, and this being one of them."
"me everything that you're about to do and not Paul appears. Like, I I just need you to."
"[laughter]"
"Okay. Well, it keeps the conversation honest. And I don't like to re- straw man or anything. It I think it's a more professional way to have a discussion, especially if we're going to talk about religion, which people hold personally, right? Jesus says in Matthew 5:17, he did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them. Yet, Paul says believers are not justified by the works of the law. And he warns in Galatians 5 that if you receive circumcision as obligation, Christ will be of no benefit to you. So, on the surface, you have here one text, right? Which sounds like the Torah remains standing, while other New Testament sounds like Torah observers."
"Okay. Genesis 17 presents circumcision as God's covenant command for Abraham's descendants."
"we'll deal with we'll deal with your objection. So, in Matthew chapter 5 verse 17, it says, 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the law of the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.' Which means to bring them to completion. Right? So, Jesus is not just doing away with the law, but he is completing that which the law was set to accomplish. So, when you read Luke chapter 24 verses 45 down, Jesus is saying that he did all of these things so that all of these things have been accomplished. When you read the the last sayings that Jesus says on the cross, like when he he says, 'I thirst.' and they bring He says, 'Now all has been accomplished.' and he says, 'It is finished.' and he gives up his spirit. Right? So, he's doing all these these things to accomplish all that the law has set out, not just to do away with it. So, when the law is brought to completion, these things that were like the things that were set down in the law are not the things that bring you salvation. But, the thing that gives you salvation is obviously going to be Christ."
"Okay. So, again, do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. So, again, complete them, right? A word's eternal, but it's being completed. It's not saying that it's being revoked or modified. I I can agree with you there. It's being appended. And then sealed with a period at the end. I'm giving people analogies so they can understand and follow us. But, in those same gospels, Jesus does not appear to be preparing us for a time when the law or any portion of it will be done away with. It's Paul teaching, and you follow Paul's works, right? That the law This is This is."
"Yeah, so can you pull up Romans 10:4 and Galatians 3:13?"
"Yeah, I can, but Jesus says it in the next verse. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota or not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
"Sure. That's not That's not the uh I guess issue I have, and you can keep reading on. The main issue is the takeaway that we can deduce from that takeaway, right? Has a complete contradiction. You can supplement that verse even further, but it doesn't negate the contradiction."
"What's the contradiction?"
"up Romans 10:4 and Galatians 3:13, I'll let those do the speaking for me."
"Well, just you could just state the contradiction. Romans 10:4 just says that for Christ is the end uh of the law for righteousness is everyone who believes."
"Okay. So, now Hebrews, again, quotes from the OT many times."
"Bro, just state the contradiction, bro."
"Okay."
"Like state the proposition and then I'll respond."
"make it even more simplistic cuz I know that tension spans or time could be short. So, the Old Testament law has passed away. All right? But, clearly it quotes It's literally paraphrasing the Old Testament to show us that God indicated way back then the law was never continued to the end of time."
"Really?"
"Forever in the Hebrew doesn't mean eternal. The root means, if you look up the term for the root word, it's over the horizon. Hebrews 5:1-11 It mentions a different priesthood with OT references than the one set up in the Old Testament. So, now if you go to Hebrews 7 with more Old Testament references, this is essentially showing you God did not intend the priesthood to continue. Um there's so many Now."
"Okay, so you're saying that you're saying that it You're saying that the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament because the New Testament is saying that Jesus is putting an end to the law under the old covenant and the old covenant doesn't say that."
"Yeah, so I'll I'll make it more brief."
"Here."
"Sure."
"Here. Here. This is Jeremiah 31:31."
"and change the subject? Let's go."
"No one's changing the subject. You just said yeah. This is Jeremiah 31:31. Behold, are coming declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. My covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they shall be my people. So, he literally says that the old covenant isn't going to be forever, but he's going to institute a new covenant in which the law is going to be written on their hearts. And the way in which this happens, as is stated in the Old Testament, is going to be through the sprinkling of waters which cleanses them and he gives them a new heart, which is done through Jesus."
"Okay, so didn't we just when I joined this panel say that the law of the Old Testament is forever according according to the catechism? For the Old Testament."
"not That's not what it states, bro."
"What Can we go reread it again?"
"The Old Testament is an indispensable part of scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value for the old covenant has never been revoked."
"Perfect. Indeed, the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."
"Oh, that's exactly what is being stated by Jeremiah."
"But but but it doesn't. Again, I know this is supplementary and there's contradictory. Those are different things. Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional, the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the the whole divine they put adjectives in there. Sheesh. Whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love. These writings are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and a sound of wisdom on human life as well as a wonderful treasure of prayers. In them too, the mystery of salvation is present in a hidden if you go scroll a bit down. In a In a Where is it? Where do we look? In a hidden way. Christians venerate the Old Testament as true."
"Bro, how much more are we How much more are we going to argue? This isn't going."
"It's the final one. 123 is the final one. I promise. Christians venerate the Old Testament as the true word of God. The church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the new has rendered it void. Marcionism. So, now there's, you know, monarchical trinitarians. There's different types of trinitarians, right?"
"Well, but what How did this disprove the point that Jeremiah literally states that there is going to be a new covenant with Israel not like the old covenant?"
"All right, so there's some laws, right? Are laws eternal?"
"Bro, can you just tell me how it it disproves it? You don't need to ask me a question."
"I I literally just did. That was only one."
"Okay, so that's not I gave you evidence and then we went with a paradigm that the laws are eternal. Right?"
"Bro, what are you talk What are you talking about? You said that the old the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament. I'm showing you I'm showing you from the Old Testament where these things are prophesied."
"Okay, so Okay, let me give you some examples."
"You don't need to give me an example, bro. I just need you to tell me how whatever you're bringing up with the."
"the Old Testament and New Testament exist. Sure. Galatians 5:2 and 6, Genesis 17:10 and 14, Matthew 5:17-19."
"just bring one, bro."
"All right. I got many."
"We just went Matthew 5:17. You didn't disprove anything."
"Okay, so Genesis 17:10-14, circumcision is given to Abraham's descendants as an everlasting covenant. Galatians 5:2, Paul says circumcision is religiously empty in Christ and harmful if made a basis for justification. Leviticus 11, the Torah divides foods into clean and commands Israel accordingly. Mark 7."
"Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let's No, let's not Yeah, let's not just run all over. So, you're saying that."
"Yeah, I got a lot."
"saying that the New Testament gets rid of circumcision?"
"The New Testament isn't We got to be a little bit more, I guess, nuanced than that. He's saying that it doesn't save you. It's not saying you shouldn't do it. He's saying that the same context of what the of what, I guess, the purification symbol of it is that exists in the Old Testament is negated. He's not saying that you shouldn't do it. Read it."
"In him also were you circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of working of God who raised him from the dead. Hmm. So, the New Testament doesn't."
"to the beginning of it?"
"The New Testament Yeah. The New Testament doesn't just get rid of circumcision, but instead circumcision was pointing to something greater. As the scripture state, 'For in him the fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled with him who is the head of and rule of all authority who is the head of all rule and authority. In him were you circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh, by the circumcision of Christ.'"
"Mhm."
"Mhm."
"So, I I think you're missing the part where it's where he's saying it's spiritually fatal if relied upon for justification."
"What do you think this is talking about baptism, bro? Jesus literally says that you need to be baptized in order to be saved."
"Okay, so I'm the reason I tell you what I'm going to bring up is so that you know what we need to be looking for in each of these verses so you can see the contradiction so you can't just have your own subjective takeaway that you're looking for, right? I'm helping you know why I'm bringing you these verses up. So, we can stay on themes, right?"
"You're not actually showing the contradiction. You're just You're just saying things and then when you're refuted, you just say them again."
"I think you're just not reading what I'm reading."
"Okay, what's the what's the original proposition that you're bringing forth?"
"My original proposition is that the Old Testament and New Testament, as some people say."
"No, the specific propositions. So, you're you're."
"trying to give you."
"No, no, I'm saying your point the proposition that you're bringing the your point in bringing up Genesis. What's the What's the sentence the statement that pretty much summarizes the reason as to why you're bringing this up?"
"Right. So, the reason I'm bringing this up is because the book that you follow Old and New contradict each other many different times for many different reasons. However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says you have to follow both of them."
"I need you to listen."
"I think I think you're just following a cult, man. You're just going through your old dog and new tricks."
"You're not listening. So, you're saying that you're saying that the Old Testament and the New Testament contradict. And then you bring up things to support that, right?"
"Mhm. I I made all the."
"You bring up."
"Even if I showed you at this point water, you'll say that it's not real."
"[laughter]"
"What was your reason."
"been born and bred a certain way, right?"
"What was your reason for bringing up the book of Genesis? What's the the the proposition there? The point that you're making there. That statement."
"Yes, the reason I brought up Genesis 17:10 and 14, those specific parts, is because circumcision is given to Abraham's descendants. Who is Abraham's descendants? Is Jesus one of them?"
"That What does that have to do with anything? Sure."
"Because he as a descendant has an everlasting covenant sign of circumcision."
"It says that this is my covenant which you shall keep between me and you. The covenant that you should keep is that as for you, you shall keep my covenant, which means that they are supposed to be linked to God. A sign of the covenant is that every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins as a sign of the covenant between me and you. So, the circumcision is not the actual covenant, it is a sign of the covenant. That covenant of being the children of of Abraham is that Yahweh alone is their God and that there is no other God but Yahweh."
"Here, let me show you what I'm talking about, man. So, can you make me big screen for just 1 second?"
"You could just tell me what verse. I could I could pull it up."
"Genesis 17:10 versus Galatians 5:6. This is on biblehub.com. All right?"
"Here. Here. Here. Uh I'll just show you the covenant, bro. It's literally right here."
"Show me. Show me, man. That's fine."
"Yes. Genesis 17, starting in verse 5. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful and I will make you into nations and kings shall come from you. I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout the generations for an everlasting covenant. What is this? To be God to you and your offspring after you. That's the covenant. And I I will give to you and your offspring after you after you the land of your sojournings in the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God. That's the covenant. And God said to Abram, right? As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring. What's the covenant? That God is their God, that Yahweh is their God. This is my covenant which you shall keep between me and your offspring after you. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh in your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. So, the covenant between Abraham and God, that is everlasting, is that Yahweh alone is their God, which is why in the New Testament it is testified that all of those who have the faith that Yahweh is their God are children of Abraham. Although not by flesh, but by faith."
"Mhm."
"Mhm."
"So, you're saying that in the New Testament and in the Old Testament they hold the same symbolic kind of uh like I guess takeaway. You're saying that and and you're going against even scholars of your own denomination within Christianity within your own denomination of Trinitarianism even. You're saying that."
"Like who?"
"within your your Trinitarian denomination that you know more than these scholars."
"Like who? What church fathers are you referring to?"
"Well, all right. Let's see here. This is on BibleHub and this is annotated. Let's see who annotated this one as well. Because there's like six different contradictions on this specific annotation for these passages. So, Paul's teaching in Galatians 5:6 addresses the infiltration of teaching that Gentile Christians must be circumcised to be saved, and Paul counters, 'For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith working through love.' The translation."
"to have What do they have to have faith in?"
"And again, I I don't think that even if I showed you."
"No, what what do they have What do they have to have faith in? Is it the same thing that Abraham needed to believe?"
"The faith Here's what Abraham says."
"There's no need to stutter, brother. Is it the same thing that Abraham needed to believe?"
"to go back to to to reading the same thing for you."
"Hold on. Is it the same Do they need to believe the same thing that Abraham believed that Yahweh is their God?"
"If the word is eternal."
"Oh, so you're not going to answer?"
"He says it's eternal, doesn't he?"
"So, you that you have to believe that Yahweh is your God in order to be saved?"
"That's not what the takeaway was."
"What do they have to have faith in?"
"'This is my covenant with you,' God proclaims, 'and with your descendants after you, which you are to keep. Every male among you must be circumcised.'"
"As And it shall be."
"And you Right, but does he."
"And it Wait, wait, wait. And it shall be what?"
"And it shall be what?"
"No, finish reading."
"Wait, that's Pull it Pull it Pull it back."
"No, you have it in front of you. Finish reading."
"All right, let's let's finish it. Hold on 1 second. This."
"It's right there. What are you What are you changing?"
"It's It's It's Make me big screen, man. I'm telling you it's not right there. I got to go back."
"big screen doesn't have anything to do with you saying it. It's big screen to you. It's big screen to you, bro."
"Green Literal Bible."
"Bro, why why are you changing translations?"
"I'm not changing translations."
"Oh my God, bro. I thought you was honest. What happened?"
"What happened?"
"the verse."
"What happened?"
"It doesn't finish the verse. Are you stupid?"
"Go. Finish reading. So, it stopped in the middle of."
"verse. It's not on this page."
"It stopped in the middle of the verse. Not Not even a complete verse. It stopped in the middle of it, huh?"
"It doesn't show the full verse, you dummy."
"Mhm. Go ahead. Read the full verse."
"Make me big screen."
"What does me making you big screen have to do with you reading?"
"You'll see that you're stupid."
"Read Read the full verse."
"Okay. I got to go to the next page to read the full verse, dummy."
"Oh."
"Are you stupid? I'm showing you."
"Go. Read it. Read it."
"All right. I'm going to go to the page that has the full verse. Just don't cry now. Then God said to Abraham, 'As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep. Every male among you must be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of an eternal covenant between me and you. It will be.'"
"a what?"
"It will be a sign of the covenant."
"not the covenant. It's a sign of the covenant?"
"Who is he speaking to?"
"He's speaking to Abraham. It's not the covenant. It's the sign of the covenant?"
"And hold on. Is he telling Abraham that this sign is not part of the covenant?"
"It's Is it a sign of the covenant or is it the covenant?"
"It's a sign of the covenant."
"Okay. So, what's the covenant?"
"The covenant that he get Man, are you brain dead?"
"What No. What's the actual covenant? What is the circumcision a sign of?"
"I genuinely think you're just dumb. I'm sorry."
"Oh, you don't know what the actual covenant is, huh?"
"I just I'm I don't I don't say this much."
"Hey."
"What happened to you being honest, bro? I had I had hope. I had hope cuz usually people who have to say like, 'Hey, yo. I'm honest.' Usually they be honest, right? That's what we were supposed to hope for. Usually they be honest."
"Real quick before you go."
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