Transcription
Hey, welcome to the Live Worthy podcast where we are inviting women to cross the threshold into new places of faith and encounter with the Lord. Um, welcome back.
I'm here with my friend Caleb Hires, senior leader at the resting place. You're back.
I'm back.
Back for a great conversation. And we're going to dive into some good thick stuff, I think, in the, um, book of John chapter 17. Uh, I am, I am like affectionately labeling this, unity.
I like it.
Because it's June and, uh, the month of unity, I think. Um, we're coming off of Pentecost.
>> And you have a ministry that you've, uh, you're leading in lots of ways called to gather here in the Tampa Bay region. So, will you tell us about this? This is like a very close to your heart conversation, right? So, I wanted to have you on to just hear how that all started and then we'll get into some of those other pieces later.
Yeah, sure. You, you let me come back. I did.
Amazing.
I mean, it was one of my favorite conversations.
Brave. It's bravery. Bravery right there.
I have, I have lots of ideas in store for all the times you get to come back. So, it won't be your last. Don't worry.
I love it. No, I am on the team for to gather Pentecost. I'm part of the leadership. Uh, Gio Munoz from Abide is, uh, the one the Lord spoke to and, uh, originally just speaking around Pentecost saying, uh, cuz the, the cry of his heart was like, why is nothing changing in our region? You know, what's the, we pray for fire every year. We pray for the Holy Spirit to come and to shift things. And we have good services, but we don't have real transformation. And, uh, the Lord said, "Well, you're not in one place.
You're trying to be in one accord without being in one place. There's, there's an order to these things, a divine order. Acts 2:1, you know."
Yeah.
So, he called me. I think the way he tells it is he says, "Who would be crazy enough to actually join me?"
Yeah.
On Pentecost Sunday, he's like, "Ah, my friend Caleb would be crazy enough."
So, you know, him and then we called overflow. You know, your home base and actually, uh, just outside the field where it happened right now, where it first happened. So, sorry if I'm breaking the third wall or fourth wall here by ruining the location. Sorry. Anyway, it was actually on this property that we gathered that first year and had an amazing time and we just felt the, the blessing of the Lord that comes when brothers dwell in unity, right?
Um, Psalm 133, I believe it is. And so, you know, my heart has always been to see the capital C church mature.
I personally, my, my personal mission statement in life is to mature the saints in love. So, it's not about growing my congregation. It's not about, uh, doing my thing. It's about helping everyone around me actually mature in love for God and for each other. So, to be a part of something like that is very special and absolutely core to who I am. And yeah, we're going on year six just now. And, you know, it's a miracle that it happened once.
Yeah.
You know, to have churches not meet in their own building on a Sunday morning, 10:00 a.m.
Yeah.
But then it happened twice and then three times. I don't even know what you call it at this point. I don't, I don't know what you call that.
A movement. I think.
Once is a miracle. Yeah. Keeping it going as a movement. It's difficult. It's, uh, it's taken on new forms. It's, you know, I,
I think you marry the mission. You date the methods.
Mhm.
Right.
That's true.
So, our methods have changed even this year, you know, and,
we, we're going to continue to change the methods, but we're going to stay on mission. But, and the mission is oneness. That together is not an event. It's a movement towards oneness. It's just one piece of the puzzle, uh, to celebrate the oneness that's happening in Tampa Bay. And there's real fruit.
Yeah.
Between leaders, between congregations, individuals. It's been amazing to be a part of.
So, how do you personally feel about being the guy that people call when they have a crazy idea?
Cuz I've called you about crazy ideas and I'm, I've told you this many times. Like, when I'm around Caleb, I feel courageous.
And that is a good thing when, when so often in the scripture, the prayer is for boldness and courage.
Yeah.
So, how do you feel about being that guy?
I love it.
I want to be that guy. I want to help people do the crazy things.
I want to take the mountain. I'm, my name's Caleb. I want the giants. I want the mountain to the giants.
And I get around, uh, fellow giant slayers, and I'm about it. You know, one of my favorite moments with Caleb in the Bible is when he says, "Give, you know, the giants in the promised land." Everybody's scared and he says, "They will be to us our daily bread."
I translate that as like, giants are just breakfast, bro. Like, I eat giants for breakfast. So,
one of my team members got me that in a little, a little plaque thing that I have on my desk. Eat giants for breakfast. So, yeah, when you, somebody calls me like that, like, "Hey, let's get the whole region together in one place and worship Jesus. No church names, no brands, no offering, no, you know, for any one church. Just, just straight up prayer, worship, communion. That's it." I'm like, "Yes." You know what I mean?
Yeah. And it seems like such a simple idea and concept, but the execution of that takes a lot of courage, a lot of difficult, um, conversations, a lot of long nights and a lot of, a lot of money.
Never rented an arena before.
A lot of faith. Not yet.
Not yet. You're going to find out.
Yeah.
Maybe one day. Lord willing.
You will.
So, I, I love that you're, it speaks to your personal calling too, to mature the saints, cuz how can we mature without courage or bold steps of faith?
Yeah.
So, if you love it,
the courage part is the big deal. The boldness, the parresia in the book of Acts. It said they spoke with great boldness. That's parresia. And that parresia, parresia, uh, in that culture was a, a mostly commonly known as the Parisian contract where a ruler would make a deal with an emissary or an ambassador or a messenger and they would say, "Whatever you have to say, even if it's against me or does me harm, I will not harm you. So, speak your full mind, open everything, just let it all out." That's the boldness that they had in the book of Acts. That's the courage that I want to carry and the courage I want to impart. So, I think that's what it takes though.
Yeah.
To be mature as, as the church, capital C,
we have to be courageously humble.
We have to be courageously, you know, we have to take risk.
Mhm.
We got, we got to jump when God says jump. We got to stop when God says stop. M.
Courageously obedient, you know.
And that's the idea that the, what you're just saying, to come without fear,
of what may happen to you as a messenger of the Lord.
That is a different place. And, you know, probably where we get, "Don't shoot the messenger." Don't shoot the messenger. But I think there is, in the pursuit of even unity, boldness can be interpreted as, um, fiery darts.
Yes.
Sometimes.
Y.
So, what do you do about that? Or have you come across that?
Stupid question.
No, it's not a stupid question. It's a good question. Yes, I've come across.
Have you been breathing in the church? Right. That's the.
I have been accused of, of lots of strange things and just by speaking my full mind.
And I do it. I, all I try to do is submit.
Yeah.
But boldly proclaim.
And, yeah, I've been accused of being arrogant, of, um, having the solution,
just for speaking confidently to what I feel the Lord is saying.
And I can't, I cannot control anyone else. All I can do is be clear before the Lord. I know before God I'm not those things. So, I don't really care what you think.
Yeah.
That's the, that's the boldness that they had in the book of Acts. They literally said, "You decide for yourself whether it's right to obey you or obey God." Cuz they say, "Stop preaching in the name." Stops using that name. And they say, "You decide for yourself. That we're not even going to decide for you. You decide for yourself,
what is right."
Yeah.
To obey you or God. And they just leave it. So, it's not my job to control your thoughts about me or whatever. I have zero, like, codependence with you or anyone else. Like,
Yeah.
I want to be, I want to obey the Lord.
I want to love my family. I want to walk in integrity. And I don't really care about the rest. Yeah.
I, your, your opinion is very low on mine. Mhm.
No, no disrespect. Like,
Yeah. No, I get it.
Like, I care what my wife thinks.
Sure.
I care what, like, my core, like, my, the elders that are in charge of me think.
And that's really it.
Yeah.
And I think that you say that, I know that what's behind there,
your value of honor is very high. So, I've been in plenty of places with you where I've invited you to speak or,
um, whatever's happened and you're like, "Tell me the boundaries that you want me to hold or tell me what you don't want me to say or tell me, like, you've, you're not trying to like blow things up to blow things up with what you say." No. But you are committed
to a fear of the Lord.
Um, and you go about it in a way that's honoring and kind. Um,
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. So, I don't want people to think you're like walking into rooms and you're just like, "Burn it all down or push things over," you know?
I was literally at a meeting this week and I said some hard things and I said, "You guys can judge me. Just judge me to my face right now. Don't judge me behind my back later, but judge me to my face." Like, anyway, everybody laughed. It's kind of disarming, I think. But no, honor is my first personal core value. It's the first core value of our congregation at the resting place. But it's not from a place of needing you to think well of me.
M.
I think that's the distinction
that is
it's, I want to honor you because the scriptures command us to honor all people.
That's what it says. Honor everyone. So, I want to be obedient to that. And it is about the fear of the Lord. But it's even more so about the unity of the spirit.
Yeah.
So, there's many spirits of unity out there. There's many collaborative efforts. There's many, you got political campaigns. You got church missions. You've got, you know, nonprofit organizations that are trying, attempting to do and create certain outcomes.
Yeah.
Right. There's many spirits of unity, but there's only one unity of the spirit. And the unity of the spirit is led by the spirit and has to call the spirit Lord.
So, this is why I can say at the same time, I, I want to radically obey God and that means honoring you and everyone around me.
But I also don't care what you think.
Yeah.
About me.
Right.
I, I care about your heart and treating you right before God, but I'm not doing it so that you think a certain thing about me.
Right.
Or so that you feel a certain way about me. I understand not everyone's going to feel the same way about me or whatever. That's not, it's not one of my metrics.
My metrics is, is this what God is doing?
I'm going to do it and I'm going to honorably invite everybody else to do it as well, but I'm not relenting on this is what God is doing.
Yeah.
And I can be wrong about what God is doing. I'm not the sole source of understanding what the spirit is doing. It wasn't even my idea to do together.
I'm just coming alongside Gio.
Yeah.
You know, same thing with, um, I just did Communion America with Awaken the Dawn. I came alongside David Bradshaw. Wasn't my idea, but I helped him produce it and make it happen. I, I love coming along Joshua's alongside Joshua's. I'm Caleb. I'm sitting across from a Joshua. I love coming alongside Joshua's and saying, "What? God said, 'What? Let's actually do it.
Let's do it.
I can help you do it." That's my favorite thing to do.
So, not to, not to, um, get off topic, but that's one of the reasons I was really hesitant to plant my church, cuz I'm like, "I don't want to be,
I want to be Caleb. I don't want to be Joshua. I don't want to be at the front." So, I'm actually way more comfortable serving someone else's vision than I am leading the one the Lord gave me. That's actually where I'm most uncomfortable.
And I, I don't think it shows, but it's, I feel it.
Yeah.
You know, so anyway, the holding the reverence, the unity of the spirit, the fear of the Lord, and honoring everyone in tension with, you know, I know not everyone's going to approve or like me. You know what I mean? I think you can hold those truths in tension, that boldness of, "I'm going to say my full mind. I'm going to say everything I believe. I'm going to speak it with my whole heart. I'm going to give my full passion to it. It's going to make some people confused. It's going to, you know, turn some people off. But it's true to what I understand of the Lord and it's really his thoughts that I care about most."
So, how do you, I want to like, maybe go a little bit of a different way for a minute, but when you're talking about being between Joshua and like a Caleb, I think there are times, right, that you're walking out as a Joshua, as a, as a, a giant, um, in that regard, leading your church. You have Caleb's alongside of you,
um, for how did you know? How do you know which role you're to take? Because I think sometimes, especially women, assume, "I'm always a Caleb," or "I'm always a Martha," or "I'm always, you know, a Mary." We, we kind of position ourselves in a way that would, um, mold us into one thing, when even to your point, there are places where you're stepping in as a Caleb in big movements. There are places that you're stepping in as Joshua,
um, to just go along with the narrative here. But how are, where, how do you know?
I think it comes down to the multitude of counselors and trusting the wisdom of your friends because you're not always going to know.
When, for example, when I,
when my wife was the one who said, "You're going to plant a church. You're going to do all this." And I'm like, "You're crazy. No, I'm not doing that. No way. I'm the musician, worship leader guy. I want to write books. I want to sing songs. I want to go to churches and lead.
I don't want to like,
Yeah.
Deal."
Yeah. Very apostolic.
I just want to go build some stuff, break some stuff, and get out. You know what I mean? And let them handle it. But,
um, so I was very against, I was very, I did not want any part of it. Then we planted our, our school and the school, um, the students started saying things like, "You have to plant a church. We're not going back to our church." Like, and it was the opposite effect. I'm like, "No, cuz they're from multiple churches. I'm like, 'No, go to your church, serve. Go be a Caleb, you know, to the Joshua. Go.'"
And then, um, my wife was again persistent. I got a prophetic word. It's a big long story, but I went to every single one of my spiritual fathers
at that time and just said, I was pleading with someone to tell me no.
I was like, "Please,
one of you, one of you tell me this is a bad idea." And they all said the opposite, like, "Absolutely, you should do this." So, I had to, in that moment, make a choice. Am I going to trust
the wisdom of my fathers, my friends, my wife, or am I going to just
dig my heels in? You know what I mean? So that's my story with that. I don't know if that answers the question, but I relented and then
partnered with God and it's doing great. We're in our, we're going to be eight years old this August and there's been tons of fruit. I've already spun off another church, planted another church out of our church.
Wow.
Um, in the first few years. So,
yeah. I mean, and that wasn't like a church split. That was a, "Yeah, we bless them." The Sue, Eric, and Sarah Sue up in Wesley Chapel. They're amazing.
And so, yeah. Um,
I don't know if that answers the question completely, but I think you, the couple ways you know is sometimes you just know in your heart,
God called me to this, and you know that you know that you know. That's like the gift of faith.
Sure.
Right. And then there's other times where you don't even, you kind of don't want to know.
You're like, "I don't want that to be ready."
Yeah. And you got to trust the wisdom of your, your counselors, your friends, your peers.
The Worthy Encounter is July 17th and 18th, and it's for women who are ready for more. It's time to announce to the daughters of God that they are worthy of their calling, worthy to come boldly, worthy to hear God's voice, to steward your authority, and to labor in the harvest. Women who long to see a generation of women who are awake, prepared, and unashamed, who carry the oil of the spirit and carry the authority of the king, who labor with freedom in the harvest and recognize their strength in advancing the kingdom of God for such a time as this. We are preparing this place for you, July 17th and 18th. It's the Worthy Encounter, your invitation to cross the threshold into more of the Lord. Join us when you're ready for more.
Yeah, I think there is a place of, maybe that too is an indicator of the unity of the spirit, because now I'm not, I am not the end all be all say. I have a will and a choice.
You could have dug your heels in. You could have decided that you didn't want to do it.
Um, but you also, there's an anointing clearly, uh, in all of these areas of your life that needed to be revealed and released for the glory of the Lord to come.
So, I want to like, position us a little bit to land in John 17 today.
Um, because it all, it all matters. It's, it's all context for for this as well. Or maybe not context, but all conversation related to this.
Um,
Well, understanding how the unity of the spirit works is how we get to oneness.
Because I believe unity isn't the end, it's a blueprint for oneness.
Unity is the how to be one.
Yes.
So, let's talk about unity.
So, Jesus has this prayer in John 17. He prays, he's praying specifically for the saints. He's praying specifically for those who believe in him,
who he has revealed himself to, who recognized that he was sent by the Father, who, um, he says, "This is how the place of faith that they would know you, Father, know that I've been sent by you." And at the end, he says, "The ones I'm praying for, that's them. They know me. They know you now because of me, right?"
Um, "I've kept them."
And so, I want to talk about
this whole idea of unity, because that's his prayer. Yeah.
That they would be one, just as you and I are one.
Um, so the oneness and the unity, what does that look like?
Yeah. Well, only because we're not going to be here all day, I do want to recommend a resource just to help answer that question further. I did write a book called Common Unity.
Yes.
And it's the blueprint for oneness. It's a short book, but it talks about all this and, um, and more than we're going to talk about today. So, I think that would be a very helpful resource.
It's available on Amazon. Anyway, um,
Get it. Get it.
Yeah.
So, um, because unity and oneness are not, they are distinct things. And in John 17, he speaks about being one,
as the, as he is one with the Father.
You and me, and I in them, one.
So, I tell people, and this is one of the things it gets misunderstood, um, but I still feel the pleasure of the Lord on it. So, I'm going to say it here as well, that you and Jesus are not like this.
You're not tight. You're not close. You're not just two fingers. You and Jesus are like this.
Because all of Jesus's prayers get answered.
He prayed that we would be one.
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yes.
One. Not close, not nearby, not tight.
Yeah.
One.
One.
I, I don't think any of Jesus's prayers get denied in heaven, you know. I, I think it got answered. Yeah. Yes.
I think it was answered. Yes. And the affirmative, and we're discovering that,
the reality of it. It's manifesting over time. Right?
So, real quick, I think this is important because if we consider something else and we don't look at it through this lens, I fear we might make an effort to do something that God has already ordained and established.
All the time. The, the church does this all the time. I think it's an aspect of immaturity where we are looking to attain what God has already given.
Yeah. And even when you do this with your two fingers, you tie them like that, there is some effort that I'm making to even hold this position.
Yes.
That would require something that the Lord is like, "This one." One. One.
Right.
Your index finger. One. That's it. You just point.
Yep.
That's me and you.
One. And so, I think even just that simple way of doing it is like, "No, it doesn't have to be that hard."
Right? Well, speaking of the unity of the spirit in Ephesians 4, you know what it doesn't say? It doesn't say, "Strive to attain
Yeah.
the unity of the spirit. Be eager to attain the unity." It says, "Be eager to maintain the unity of the spirit."
That's something,
right? In the bond of peace. Mhm.
So, and he says, "I urge you, brothers and sisters,
to walk worthy of the calling you received." That's right. It's a very special verse for you. But it says, "Eager to maintain."
Yes.
So, like, together, all these things, the worthy, all this, we're not attaining anything. No. By doing these efforts, we're not achieving oneness or unity. We're actually discovering
the oneness and unity that he gave to us
in his flesh. That's the point of John 17. Yeah.
He says, "For this reason I sanctify myself that they may be sanctified." Like, the reason we have access to sanctification is because he is the sanctified one.
Yeah.
Sanctification is a person, according to 1 Corinthians 1. So, he became to us wisdom, sanctification, redemption, all of that. So,
it's a person we're in the process of knowing and discovering in one another as we have been unified in him by the spirit. And we're to maintain that oneness, not attain it.
It's not something we're scraping for. It's not something we're trying to get. Like, the hope is not because if we do this, we go here, we do that, we have this time together, we'll be more one. No, we'll understand our oneness more.
Which is why he talks about the revelation of who he is. It's the, it's the revealing.
Yes.
At such a time, my mom always says, "Every generation, it has a new revelation." So, that what they understood, my, my parents' generation understood was for that time and that season, if they chose to
discover it as the Lord was revealing it.
And then as we get to the next generation, there's something new. She's like, "So, I can't assume that I know everything,
because there's something that he's releasing on the next generation that has yet to be
um, revealed." And so, this is why now, when it's clearly here, this is the time and season the Lord is saying, "I want this right now. It needs to come forth."
I think, um, this, this will probably just be for my, my Orthodox and traditional friends. What I'm about to say, cuz I have those, I have Orthodox traditional friends. They're so cool.
I do. I have them. I consider myself actually highly orthodox with modern methods. So, anyway, um, I actually think it is revelation in one sense, but it's actually more appropriate to call it illumination.
Okay.
Like, you shine a light on.
It's illuminating what's already there, cuz, um, I believe that he has been revealed.
Yeah.
Like, Christ himself, the full revelation of the Father.
Yep.
And the book of Revelation is this is the apocalypsis of Christ, of Jesus Christ. The revelation, the unveiling.
Yeah.
This is the unveiling. It doesn't say, "This is one of them."
It says, "This is."
So, he has been revealed. It's just in our timeline, in our context, we're thinking it's being revealed. But even that,
Yeah.
can become
Sure.
something we attain to. But it's actually just grasping. He's illuminating certain things from generation to generation. There's a new part of him that we see that's already able to be seen. And I don't, I don't think you're doing this. You're not, you're not doing what I'm about to say. But some people when they get in this mode of conversation, they think that we, it was revealed to us.
Oh yeah. That's how cults are born.
Right? And the truth is, it was just illuminated to you, but it's always been there.
Yes.
And guess what? There were others who knew this before you. They've known this for years. They just didn't have Facebook or podcasts to talk about it. Okay? Like, they were in a field somewhere and they, they knew this of the Lord because it's already been revealed.
Yeah.
So, it's, I, I like to say I'm an illuminatory
teacher. I want to just show you. I just want to put a little light on what's already there.
I'm not anti the word revelation. I'm just saying it's important, even that, in this conversation, that we know we're not like,
we're not like, in our generation, gaining something the last one didn't have.
We're seeing something they didn't see as, as clear as we see.
Yeah.
Right. But it's already there. It's already given. The work is done. It is finished. He is,
"I am that I am." Yeah.
He is.
And he's been revealed once for all. Salvation has been handed down.
Yeah. And he says that, "I have revealed myself to them," which means there's not any part that he kept hidden.
That's right.
He has revealed. So, I love the, the use of the word illumination is much better.
Yeah. Um, and I think as we, maybe this idea of oneness is a place that we have, um, is the, is an answer, I think, to so much, um, judgment that we place on ourselves and each other within the church. And so, even the idea of like, the multiple spirits of unity that you talked about, how do we, as we think about the, the revelation of Jesus, the illumination of oneness through John 17 and all of these spirits of unity? When you think about those, what looks, how do we know what looks like that plum line of Jesus and the revelation of his spirit, and what doesn't? How do we, how do we do that? Cuz I think it's right now quite difficult for people to see any, any unity of the spirit in some of these places politically.
Yeah.
Um, even in family, like how differently we raise our children. Oh yeah.
Like in the church, um, all the previous ones you mentioned, but go ahead. In the arts, all that stuff. Women leadership in church. Not to mention, you know, I was waiting, I'm waiting for you to say it out loud. I'll say it.
Yeah.
So, I, this is going to be a very theological, like approach, but or semi-theological, but it's important to note that and understand again, what unity is and what it isn't. The, there's, like I said, many spirits of unity, one unity of the spirit. And knowing the difference is a little bit, I think sometimes can be a process, but it's really a heart check.
It's really a heart. So,
the unity of the spirit is not everyone doing the same thing.
Yeah.
The unity of the spirit is doing everything we do with the same Lord. So, it's not about us all getting on the, the Worthy train.
Yeah.
It's not all of us doing the together thing.
That we, I, I can testify to this. One of the first things I said to Pastor Gio when he called me that, I said, "This is going to be a blueprint.
Others are going to be able to do this without us and it's going to be beautiful." And this year, my friend Dino Rosado is leading the charge in New Jersey. They're doing Jersey One and they're celebrating. There's like 20 different congregations coming together and it's not called together. It's called Jersey One. Yeah. And they're, they're celebrating together, you know, and they're, they're worshiping Jesus and oneness is a result. So,
knowing the difference, I think that's the distinction. It's like, okay, is Jesus Lord of all the things we're doing, which are diverse and multitudinous and, and they have their own nuance and they have their own expression. But is it with the same Lord? The same spirit? It's about doing all the diverse things we do with the same spirit. It's not about everybody doing my thing.
And when it becomes about my thing,
that becomes Lord.
Yeah.
Like, if I judge a congregation for not taking part in to gather, to gather is now Lord.
Yeah.
Right. To gather is the, is the thing I'm looking to. Yeah. But I don't judge the congregation that isn't involved because they're, I'm, I'm praying they're doing something with the spirit as the Lord leading them in their congregation.
There's even been congregations that were involved previously that aren't involved this year because they're doing something else for their congregation and the Lord who is the spirit led them to that. So, we've not lost the unity of the spirit. We've just lost the connection point of the event.
Yeah. But it's broader than that. So, I think the difference comes when everybody has to do the thing to be unified. But that's not unity. That's unison.
Alright? Like, I'm a musician. So, for me, I think in terms of music,
uh, one of the hardest things to do
is to sing in unison with someone else.
It's actually very difficult to sing the exact same note, exact same melody without, because even if someone has perfect pitch, there's, it's technically not perfect when it's expressed and sang. It only a machine can do it perfectly. Um, and that, sorry, that ruins when the machine does it perfectly. It doesn't feel, it doesn't have any soul. It's like, you know,
AI music, whatever. Anyway, sorry, not going to go there. But, um,
the, but harmony is much easier. So, unison is difficult because we have to sing the same note, the same pace, the same timbre, the same pitch, everything. But harmony, I sing a different note than you and they complement.
And it's actually way easier to harmonize.
Than it is to sing in unison.
And so, here's another thing about harmony. You have to be in the same room. You have to be connected. You have to be in the same space to actually hear the other note because you're singing relative to each other, right? So, I think the church has been very pitchy for a long time because we're trying to sing in unison, and it would be much more beautiful if we're singing harmony. And I do mean the pun. I just quickly jumped out there, but I'll leave it alone. It's hard. It's hard to get everybody doing the same thing at the same time.
And we call that the unity of the spirit. That's not the unity of the spirit.
That can be, that can be a spirit of unity if we're not careful.
Yeah.
So, do I want everybody to gather? Do I want everybody, all the women in Tampa Bay to be at the Worthy Conference? Do I want, yeah. But for me to judge them for not being there would be for me to not maintain the unity of the spirit.
Yeah.
Right.
And so, I think that's one of the distinctions I think is important. We don't make it about the thing we're doing.
Yeah.
We make it about the Lord we're following.
Never lose hope. Just keep on waiting. You will never disappoint me.