Christian vs Jewish Women | The Bridge

There are plenty of Jews who have read the New Testament, and they read it and they say, "No." Like, and that's an okay way, I think, to read the text is to read it and then say, "Actually, disagree." Cool.

Because I think one, like, one question I might have is when you read the Hebrew Bible and you see that way that it references the New Testament. Well, if I'm really versed in the text, I can write a text that very easily references the text before it to prove the text before it. And so the question would be, like, how do we know that the codifiers of this text? And this is a historic, I think, like, probably a historic perspective as opposed to a religious perspective. But how do we know that those people weren't versed in text and then trying to use the text in order to prove the thing as opposed to the text was there and then happened to prove the thing? I don't think you can compromise on truth with 40-plus authors over the course of 1600-plus books. I think that the authors, at some point, you would begin to see inconsistency in the text, and you just don't.

And so my challenge for every Jew, because you guys are saying that you're thinkers and you're doubters, would be to actually put Jesus on trial, to read the New Testament, put the New Testament on trial, observe the claims, and see whether or not they're in alignment with what you guys call the Hebrew Bible.

In today's episode, Christian women and Jewish women come together to explore how faith, scripture, and tradition shape their values and daily lives. From the shared foundations of the Hebrew Bible to the distinct perspectives on Jesus, covenant, and salvation, these women will open up about how their beliefs inform their choices about faith, values, and how they live their lives. This is meant to be an honest dialogue to bridge understanding, address misconceptions, and highlight both the common ground and unique differences between two of the world's most influential faiths. I am your host, Dr. Michelle Daff. Welcome to The Bridge.

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Hi. Hi, I'm Taylor, and I'm Jewish. Hi, I'm Ronnie, and I'm Jewish. Hi, I'm Tori. I'm Jewish. Hi, I'm Tanya, and I'm a Jew. Hi, I'm Chanasa, and I'm a Christian. Hi, I'm Kalia, and I'm a Christian. Hi, I'm Fabiana, and I'm a Christian. Hi, I'm Deia. I'm a Christian. Hi, and I'm Chantel. I'm a Christian.

Thank you, ladies. Now, before we continue, did you know that we have a clips channel where we post highlights and the best parts of our discussions? So, head over to the Dr. Daff show clips channel and subscribe. Thank you.

I believe our two faiths have more in common than people realize. Okay, we'll start with you. Okay. Well, I believe that our faiths do, um, intercede a little bit because the Bible is one book. There's the Old Testament and the New Testament. They're not two separate books. They are one book. Um, so Jesus, if we want to, you know, look at the Messiah, he goes back all the way to Genesis when, um, you know, there's the serpent and there's Adam and Eve. God said to Eve, or God said to the serpent, "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed." Um, his foot will crush your head, and you will bite. You will wound his heel. Well, that was Jesus in, in the Old Testament, because Jesus, you know, his, he was on the cross. So that's his heel being wounded, but he defeated death and he resurrected from the dead as the Messiah. And so that's crushing Satan's head. Um, if you go back to Genesis also, uh, when God was talking to Abraham, he said, "I will bless, I will make, I will make you a great nation. I will bless you and bless your name. Um, I will curse those that curse you and bless those that bless you, and in you all nations of the earth will be blessed." Jesus is a descendant of Abraham. He's a descendant of King David. And so, um, Jesus is the seed of Abraham. Through Jesus, all of the earth is saved. And so, you know, it is through the Jews that people are saved. It's through the Messiah, the Virgin Mary, who is a righteous Jewish woman. It did come through the Jews, and we are saved through Jesus. And, um, Galatians 3 is another one where it says, "There is no difference between the Jew or the Greek, male or female, slave or free, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." So Jesus dying on the cross, that's the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise.

So you're saying because of that, you believe that we have more in common? Yes, I do. Yes. Because the Old Testament is our Bible also. Yeah, it's one book. Yeah.

So, I, I put up the, the disagree. Um, I, I think like a very simple way of saying or showing how it's different is that you call it Old Testament and we call it the Hebrew Bible. And those are actually two different books. They're ordered slightly differently. Um, and so there is a difference between Old Testament and Torah. And we would say, or I guess I can't speak for, I can only speak for myself, and also I'm studying to be a rabbi. So this is what I, what I study is is the text. Um, that the, the, that it's a reading in of Jesus into Torah, not that that is actually what was the, um, prophecy. And for us Jews, we're still waiting for the Messiah to come. We don't think that a Messiah has come yet. Um, and, yeah, I picked up on what you were saying. You said, you know, Jesus came and we're all safe. And I just felt like, do you feel like we live in a safe world right now? No. There's still sin in the world. We live in a fallen world, but you have salvation through Jesus. So, everyone is appointed the first death. After the first death, there is a second death that Jesus saves you from. So, there is heaven and hell. And, you know, Jesus said, "I am the only way to the Father." And so that's why, you know, Christians are so bold in saying, you know, Jesus is the way to the Father. He is this. He is the God of Jacob, Isaac, and, and Abraham. Um, just a question. Did you say saved or safe? Safe. You're saying two different things. Okay. So, you heard safe, but she said, this world is fallen, so there's still danger. There's still sin, but we are saved through Jesus. And, you know, you do get a spiritual, um, protection through with the Holy Spirit. I think she just said what you said.

I believe at a baseline, we're interconnected just because we all recognize the God of the Torah, the Tanakh, which is Yahweh. And so I think that's where at least the middle ground is is we recognize that Yahweh is the creator of the universe and all things. Um, so that's the way that I would say we're interconnected. And that obviously we originated in the same part of the world. Yeah. And I agree with that because it's like, well, at least we have some parts of the same story in a sense where there's other, you know, groups that it's a completely different story. So, like, there's that baseline foundation that we're all kind of starting at. And then the difference is, we kind of have a little bit more elaboration that for me personally gave me the fuller context because I didn't actually really read the Bible a lot as a believer, like I didn't really when I was younger, but then as I started applying it, I saw how both parts worked together and completed the story where before there was stuff that seemed out of context that would cause confusion in my life. And then, uh, once I had that confusion removed and more context and revelation by the Holy Spirit that came, it really brought this, this peace that surpassed understanding where, like you said, we're in some crazy times, you know, like the world is unpredictable, but with the Holy Spirit within us and knowing that we have the Trinity, you know, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, for us, therefore, who can be against us? So there's that internal peace amongst the chaos in the world. And that's the difference is like, how do you go to, how do you fall asleep at night? You know, like, are you at peace or are you in torment? So, and when it comes to the prophecies, I was just going to say, like, Isaiah 53 is, Jesus is all over the Old Testament when you read it. Isaiah 53 is a very telling chapter, um, speaking of the Messiah. "We are wounded by his stripes. You know, he was afflicted by our griefs. We, we didn't acknowledge him. We didn't see him." It's very clearly laying out Jesus.

I do want to hear from you. I had a question, uh, in response to something that you said, um, you said that, um, her suggestion of the Genesis passage is like reading Jesus into the text. And I know you're studying to be a rabbi. So I wanted to hear your take on specific prophecies, and maybe you can illuminate that for me. But kind of like she touched on, I'll touch on. There's three specifically that are very, I guess I would say, flagrant. And I just wanted to hear your take. So there's one in Isaiah 52, and it describes a suffering servant that is, um, going to be prudent. Then he's going to be exalted and extolled. Then it says that he's going to be marred and disfigured beyond the recognition of any other man. I forget the last part of it. Um, but it says that he's going to suffer for the sins of the world. And that's Isaiah 52, verse 11. Um, and then I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. And then there's two others that, like I said, really stand out to me. Um, I think it's Micah 5:2. It describes a, a person that's going to, or the savior who's going to be born in Bethlehem. It literally says he's going to be from days of old, from everlasting. So who would be everlasting apart from God? Um, and then the last one is kind of what she touched on in Isaiah 53. It describes again, Isaiah 52 continues into 53, and it describes a suffering servant that, um, it literally says, "It pleased the Father, um, to to bruise, to pierce him, and to bruise him." And so I love Jewish people, but they've never been pierced for my sins. They've never been, uh, specifically, it says the sprinkling. It uses the word sprinkling, and I'm sure you're very familiar. Sprinkling comes from the practice of atonement in Leviticus, where the blood was sprinkled, the blood, blood of the bulls was sprinkled on the altar for the, uh, atonement of the Jewish people. But I can't understand that in light of, I guess, your view, like how the blood of someone else besides Christ could be sprinkled for my atonement. So I know that was a lot, but I'm just curious to know, like, what your perspective is on those prophecies.

Yeah, I appreciate it. First of all, I just want to say, like, in with my experience with Christians, I appreciate so much how learned you are in text. And I would say, like, for the most part, especially with, with Hebrew Bible, Old Testament, whatever you might refer to it as, I actually spend far more of my time interested and busy with like the Mishna and Talmud and other texts that come after the Hebrew Bible. Not because it's not important. We read it every week. It is a central core piece of our text. But Judaism is not the Hebrew Bible. It's starts there. And then we have 5,000 years of tradition and life and philosophy and thinking. And we are a people of dialogue, and we're a people of disagreement. There's this amazing adage, "Two Jews, three opinions," because we just, like, we are a people of the book who want to think and disagree. Like, I think also disagreement is, is a, as we're all agreeing that disagreement is a core piece of who we are. First of all, we don't have original sin in Judaism. There's no concept of original sin at all. And there are people that have like thought about who is the Messiah, what is the Messiah, like, what is this actually going to be? There's ideas that the Messiah will come riding up on a donkey from this street and spot that I've like been to, and they're like, "This is where the Messiah is going to come from." And we're like, "Okay." You know, that it's, it's for us, it's all speculation. It's all theory. It's not, nothing is proven, and we really have no idea. And like, it's, it's kind of like that we can only imagine or think or whatever what it might be, but we actually have no idea what it will be because it hasn't happened yet. And, um, I think also we, we really, and therefore, like, we really busy ourselves with living in this world, in this life, in living in in simcha, which means joy, right? Like, the commandment in Judaism is to live this life here and now joyously, um, doing mitzvot, doing, getting yourself busy with the things that, that is from the Torah and Mishna and Talmud. Did that answer your question?

Can you just clarify the question? Yes, certainly. So, my question is, there are explicit prophecies in the Old Testament. Uh, I think it's Micah 5:2, and it talks about a savior that's, um, it doesn't, I don't know if it specifically says savior, or it might, but it talks about a savior that's going to be born in Bethlehem. It says he's going to be the ruler. He's going to come to save, and he's going to be from everlasting and from old. And when I hear the word everlasting, it automatically, when I read that, it triggers the thought of the only one that is everlasting, who is God. So, there's many prophecies, especially the one in Isaiah 52, where it says there's going to be a figure who's going to be disfigured so greatly beyond any other disfigurement that ever existed, and this person is going to be extolled and exalted. This person is going to be prudent, and this person is going to, um, suffer for the world. Something like that. So, so the implication, basically, you're asking, who is, who could that be about? Like, I know you're saying that no one knows, but could it possibly be about Jesus, who, who I believe did those things? He did ride in on a donkey too, like you mentioned, like in the Zechariah, the Messiah needs to come in on a donkey, hailed as a king. That Jesus did that, but he wasn't disfigured. I mean, yes, he was disfigured on the cross, but not the, the implication is that he would not be recognizable, right? But he was certainly recognizable on the donkey, not on the donkey. No one thought that he was the Son of God.

I have a follow-up question. So, you're saying because I think the answer is that the Hebrew Bible isn't the only text. Therefore, they divert to other texts. Am I understanding correctly? So, it's understandable that you guys would say that Jesus isn't Messiah based solely on the Hebrew Bible because you have the Talmud and some other texts. Correct. Is that what you're kind of saying?

Look, there's, there's like the concept of isogesis and exegesis. One is like, right, this is what the text says, and what, and then the other is like, here's what we're reading into the text, right? So, from my perspective, Jesus is being read into the text, and you have other texts that you default to. Yeah. And so, yes, all of these might be the prophecies of the Messiah, but like, the Messiah hasn't come yet. So, there is no reading into the text because we don't know who that person is. Yeah.

So my question is, with 5,000-plus years of added literature, why not? And maybe you have, but for the average Jew, why not explore the New Testament to see if Jesus is being read into the Old Testament or not? Because if it's con, it's a religion that's constantly thinking, changing, being curious, then we have this New Testament that affirms the Old Testament prophecies, and it's not us reading Jesus into the text. It's us, as Shantel was saying, is one full, complete book. And so we're able to see, and many scholars say that the Bible is the first hyperlinked book because of all the different prophecies and narratives that are attached to all the cross-references written over 1600 years by 40-plus different authors.

May I ask if any of you are comfortable saying that Jesus was a Jew? And absolutely was a Jew. He's King of the Jews. We're very comfortable with that. Okay, great. Um, I guess what I, to answer your point, from my perspective now, I am very spiritual, and I very much identify as a Jew culturally. And I will follow certain holidays in the same way that I actually celebrate certain Christian holidays as well. I still celebrate Christmas, um, with friends. So, for me, um, I identify as a Jew not in the same way as I think you guys identify as being Christian in terms of your connection to the text. So, but I will say that it seems to me that a lot, I mean, it's very refreshing to hear that all of you so unanimously, unanimously said that you guys agree that Jesus was a Jew. A lot of my experience speaking with a lot of Christians, they don't say that, or they say that, you know, he, I mean, he is the Messiah of the Christians. So, for me, it almost feels like to some degree Christianity has morphed Judaism or is trying to like change the history of it to some degree. And so, I'm, maybe that's why we haven't dived into the future because for us, like, our text is our text. So if we're going to be exploring that, it's almost like we're abandoning the history that we know, at least from my perspective.

I see. So you feel like it was co-opted. Correct. I feel like it somehow was kind of hijacked to some degree.

What I would say is, read the New Testament because it does reference the Old Testament in in the Gospels. It'll say, "This is fulfilled the prophecy of," and then it'll reference the Old Testament. So, I would encourage you to read it and read it and see what you think.

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Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Bible. Is that which way is yours? Okay. All right. I do want to hear from you. Oh, well, specifically on this, I honestly, I don't really have an opinion. So, I apologize for, for, I don't think I think when you were talking about, did, um, first of all, I think you're so articulate. I really enjoyed listening to you. Uh, I wanted to say that. But when both of you were asking of like, do we think Jesus, um, who, who does this refer to when you were talking about in the text, I think, um, and, and I'd like to speak on behalf of you, just based on what you were saying. Our innate Jewish brain is always doubting. There's a bit of like a devil's advocate of like, maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know for sure. And so, I, until, until I see it happen, until I, you know, there's a burning bush, there's a some sort of tangible yet abstract figure that proves these things, I, I kind of doubt it.

So, question for the ladies who are Jews: Do you feel that the messianic prophecies are often misinterpreted by Christians? And why is the Messiah concept understood differently in Judaism? Anyone can answer.

This is maybe a little bit more general than an answer to that question, but I think a big thing to acknowledge is that I think a huge difference between the religions is that we have such a cultural aspect. So, I like to explain it to people is I almost think of being Jewish the way that people say they're Italian or they're Irish, right? So, it's so interesting for me to see all five of you like referencing the texts and fully agreeing on things, and we're over here like, I feel so Jewish. I teach at a Jewish preschool. I went to Jewish summer camps, and I'm not even that familiar with the texts. Like, there's, I never, I hear people who have Catholic parents say, "I'm not Christian." I rarely hear people with two Jewish parents say, "I'm not Jewish," because I feel like it's just, it's who we are, whether or not we believe. So, it's interesting. I don't even know how to jump into this conversation because when it comes to talking about the text, it's not even something that I think about so much. And there's these levels of Judaism. You know, there's Orthodox Jews, there's Reform Jews, there's Conservative Jews. And in the Reform movement, please correct me if I'm wrong, but we split the laws, and there's, there's values, and then there's laws. So, there's laws that say cover your shoulders and cover your head. But then there's also just honor the family. And so the Reform movement is, we take all those values and we live by all those values every day. And that's something that every day I do think about those values. What's important to me? My family, being a good person, doing mitzvot. But I don't think about, I need to cover my shoulders. I need to, you know, get married before I have sex. I need to do these things that are like very strict laws. Um, and so I just wanted to put that out there because I think that's like a huge difference, and that's something that I'm sitting here thinking about. Okay, I don't actually know so much about the text.

Thank you. Is there someone that can answer this particular question? I, I want, I think she's going, okay. Um, I, I don't agree that they misinterpret. I think that's what's so beautiful about reading the Bible is that you can interpret it in any way you want. And I don't think there is such a thing as misinterpretation. Uh, I grew up in Israel, which is the Jewish state, and part of our curriculum was studying the Bible the same way you study math and science. I kind of treated it as, you know, it's a school subject. I have a test in Bible studies, you know, and, and it comes out one year, it goes out the other. Once I graduated, but, you know, in your final exam, you get a piece of text and you say, like, "This is what this symbolizes. This is how I interpret this." And as long as you can, you know, um, uh, like have claims that you support, it's a good answer. And so you interpret it this way, I interpret it that way. And once again, "Two Jews, three three opinions." That's what all the Talmud Mishna is, is just arguing with each other and saying, "I read this as this, this is how this comes to be." Um, so there's room for everything. Uh, and, and I think that's, if, if everybody agreed that way, you know, we'd be, uh, living in harmony and peace potentially. And maybe the Messiah will come. I will say, I think that the, the easiest answer is that, at least from my perspective, we believe that the Messiah has not come, and we do not believe that that figure that is referenced in that text is Jesus. We also do not believe that there is any other God but God. So, I, I've been told a lot that Jesus is God or the embodiment of God. As a Jew, that's offensive because I think that there is only one God, and that's not Jesus. I think, I think everything that he stands for is beautiful, and I think that, um, it's, he embodies good, and as Jews, we care about those values. So I respect him as a figure, but I don't consider him God, if that.

I would say that I, um, I would say that I, I resonate with that offense of feeling like, okay, you guys are trying to introduce another god into it because you're right, Ten Commandments, "There shall be no other god before Yahweh." You don't bow to any other god. Um, but the way we believe is that there is one God, three persons. And so, and when you think about the Trinity, I think it's helpful to not think about like three people in a room, the way we're all sitting here. You think about God the Father, who is spirit. You think about Jesus, who is God incarnate in the flesh. You think about the Holy Spirit. There's only one person in that dynamic, one actual God-man in that dynamic. Um, and then also, you know, the word of God in, in Daniel 7, there's a prophecy about the Ancient of Days. It's talking about Yahweh there. But then it says there was a Son. The Son of Man was presented to God, and to him was given dominion over all of the earth, over all of the kingdoms. And so we still wrestle with that tension. If it's not Jesus, then who is the Son of Man referenced in this book that we do share? And then secondly, I would say for us, I think what's kind of offensive or like, I'll say disheartening, not offensive, is that there is such a distinction between ethnic Judaism and religious Judaism because to what we believe, what I believe, I've observed from the Torah, is that Judaism is an ethno-religion, and that you can't subtract them from each other. So, even to hear you guys say like, there's multiple truths or there's multiple ways to God, that is not consistent with the Torah. The Torah teaches that there is one God. So how can there be many paths? And there's, there's, there's objective truth and objective reality, right? Like, we can all say that you guys are wearing blue, or that the sky is blue. If I were to say that you were wearing pink, that would not be the truth. And so we need to observe the objective. You two in your in your blue. But we need to observe what is objectively true. And I think that's actually what's helpful in these conversations is trying to get to the truth or the root of the matter rather than like conceding and saying like, "Let's sing Kumbaya," because I think real Kumbaya happens when you get to the truth.

Can I, can I just quickly ask one thing? Um, for me, the one thing I know is that we as Jews, we, we don't look, perfection doesn't exist for us. And I think that's the reason why we have so many different opinions, this because there, we do not, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus was perfect, right? The goal, as we're, our goals as if you were Christian is to, to repent, to be, to be perfect in some way, to strive to that perfection. For us, that doesn't exist. The people that are in the Bible, like Moses, he was flawed, you know? So, for us, like, we look at the flawed people, the people that have made errors, the ones that have a struggle, you know, that's like, we're the people of struggle. That's how we identify. So, for me, I don't think of perfection. And that's why I think there's so many of us, like, not just in terms of fighting between our faith and our identity, but just like, in terms of faith, our faith isn't perfect. So that's why there's so many different opinions. And just to reference specifically, to reference a text that like is the sort of proof of concept of that, right? Jacob, when Jacob has the, the dream and then climbs this, this ladder, situate Joseph. No, no, Joseph. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. It's like, line letters. Sorry. Joseph dreams as well. So many dreams in the Bible. There's a lot of dreams. Um, when Jacob has this moment and Jacob wrestles with what is interpreted as an angel, and then is renamed, right? And like, we're like, there's a lot of focus on naming in Torah, and, and there's a lot of thought also in Judaism about the power of a name and what destiny or legacy that might offer you in certain, like, more spiritual perspectives. So, Jacob is renamed, or not even renamed, is given an additional name, Israel, which means to wrestle with God. And that is that is like a driving theological value for us. You don't have to be, you don't have to believe in God to be Jewish because we're an ethno-religion because we are a people who have a religion. Not everyone who is a part of our people necessarily practices the religion. You see that also with like Druze, for example, with a D R U Z E, Druze, not Jews. I know it sounds similar, but like, there's people that will, in their life, they choose if they want to be religious or if they want to be secular, but they are, no matter what, they're Druze. There's no question. And that's the case for us as well, that we have these, a long time thinking, like Moses Maimonides, for example, subscribed to something called negative theology, which is, we can't, I can't tell you what God is. I can only tell you what God isn't. And so that is like, sort of our legacy of of doubt, of wrestling, of questioning, of curiosity, of seeking, of trying. But like, um, like Tanya said, there's no perfection. And there's only seeking and curiosity and and striving.

What specific prophecies do you believe Jesus fulfilled?

Right. I think, honestly, I will say this. I'm kind of similar to you in that like, I'm a Christian, but I'm not, I'm not going to sit up here and like front like saying like, I know this, this, and this. So maybe I'm not the person to answer. But I do, I do so believe that Jesus is, is God and he's the savior that was prophesized in the Old Testament. The specific prophecies that come to mind come from Isaiah, but there's many. Um, Isaiah 7:14, it says, um, "And the virgin shall be with child, and we shall call his name Immanuel." And the only virgin I know that ever, at least in history that we know that had a baby was Mary. And in Matthew 1, which is the New Testament, it talks about, um, Mary naming him Immanuel. And that name just translates to "God with us." And then you go to Isaiah 9:6, and it says, "For unto us a child is born. For unto us a son is given, and we shall call his name Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace." Like, you know, a child is born, a son is given. Who else could the child and the son that was given that we are going to now call Mighty God? And that's in the book of Isaiah. Yeah. There's also the Daniel 7 prophecy about the Messiah coming before the destruction of the Second Temple. I like the fact when he was on the cross, and they didn't break any bones of his body. That's in the Old Testament, too. I think it's in Zechariah where "not one bone will be broken." They didn't break his knees when he was on the cross either. Yeah. And, uh, the one where they cast lots for his, his wardrobe. And, and then even on the cross, it put "King of the Jews." And so the fact that Pontius Pilate, like, he's like, "There's nothing wrong with this man," and these Roman soldiers, they didn't know the word, but they fulfilled the word. And so that was really, like, "Whoa," like they weren't in on it, and they did exactly what was written about, you know, hundreds of years before. He's born of a virgin and of Jewish royalty, which is another prophecy, which is pretty rare.

Do you want to speak to that? Well, I mean, this is a really controversial thing to say, but I'm seeing like, you know, Jews like to disagree and bring up things like, are we sure Mary was a virgin? Like, wasn't she a teenager who was unwed? Who told people she was a virgin? Like, these are the things I think about when I look at the stories. Like, I think it's so beautiful that you guys read the texts and believe them, but my brain is just like, "God said my word because she didn't want her dad to get mad at her." And then we're right.

So, you, so you feel like you can't trust? Is it that you cannot necessarily trust the words in the New Testament? So you can't be sure in either testament? Yeah. In either testament, she doesn't hold to either. Or is that the same for? That's what I was kind of saying, that innately, I think we're, we're the way we're both brought up, and maybe it's just, you know, ingrained within us, we're always doubting. We're always skeptical. And we, you know, sort of like you were saying, we're trying to get the truth. We, we always ask these kind of questions. Um, I think, I think also the reference is so impressive, like how well-versed you are. So, how do you get the truth if you're questioning every single thing that you're reading? Because I mean, of course, I don't think, what, what is your? I don't think the truth for me regarding these texts matters. I think what matters is being a good person and making the world a better place. So, if we look at Jesus, right? We all can agree that Jesus is an amazing person who did all these amazing things, and he's someone that we should try and live like. And so, if that's our takeaway, that's our takeaway. If we're making the world a better place, if we're being better people every day because of these texts, that's beautiful. Does it matter if something written, like, do these details matter if they're true or not? I've always taken the Bible as these are stories that we learn from. You know, I teach the kids in my preschool class, these people did these things, and this is our lesson. You know, we're, we're, we're taking the lessons, and the actual nitty-gritty of the truth doesn't really matter as long as they inspire you values and making the world a better place.

Okay. And I, thank you. I want to hear from the opposite spectrum of that because you're in the same. Well, yeah. So, and we have, unfortunately, yeah. Unfortunately, what's missing from this conversation are Orthodox Jews. And I actually think that Orthodox Jews would think like, and again, "two Jews, three opinions," like, there is no, the capital T, capital J, like, I can't, I can only speak for myself and, and the people I interact with, but like, people who Jews who see Torah as divinely given, there's, there's Torah, like the written Torah, and Torah, the oral Torah, right? So, all of that was codified at the same time, which includes the Mishna and Talmud, and all of that is closed and codified before we even get to the New Testament, right? So, there's, it's, it's like introducing this thing, this new idea. And this is the case with like, the way all religions develop. The second that we, that a new text comes in, it brings controversy, it brings challenge for people to accept it. Is, is different. So, there's people, and going back to what was said earlier, there are plenty of Jews who have read the New Testament, and they read it and they say, "No." Like, and that's an okay way, I think, to read the text is to read it and then say, "Actually, disagree." Cool. Because I think one, like, one question I might have is if it's all, when you read the Hebrew Bible and you see the way that it references the New Testament. Well, if I'm really versed in the text, I can write a text that very easily references the text before it to prove the text before it. And so the question would be, like, how do we know that the codifiers of this text? And this is a historic, I think, like, probably a historic perspective as opposed to a religious perspective. But how do we know that those people weren't versed in text and then trying to use the text in order to prove the thing as opposed to the text was there and then happened to prove the thing? I don't think you can compromise on truth with 40-plus authors over the course of 1600-plus books. I think that the authors, at some point, you would begin to see inconsistency in the text, and you just don't. And so my challenge for every Jew, because you guys are saying that you're thinkers and you're doubters, would be to actually put Jesus on trial, to read the New Testament, put the New Testament on trial, observe the claims, and see whether or not they're in alignment with what you guys call the Hebrew Bible.

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The New Testament is also divinely inspired scripture. I don't even know how to, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. What, what your gut just? Divinely inspired. Divinely inspired. That's the word. Okay.

So, I would say, um, the Old Testament talks a lot about, I, I, I remember something that you said earlier, like, you know, that the call for Jews is to just live a good life, not necessarily, and I'm paraphrasing, like a life that bolsters, like religion in a way, just like doing good. But my question while I answer this question is, um, how is that possible? Like, how, I know that at one point in time, you guys had the sacrificial system of atoning for your sins. What do you do now for your sins? And that's a question I'd like you to ask. But the reason, um, that I'm asking that, because I feel like the New Testament and the Old Testament, they rightly describe the human condition. All throughout the Old Testament, you see the Israelite people rebelling against God. "Don't eat the fruit." "I'm going to eat the fruit." That's like the very first page. And then you go on and you continue to still see them do their own thing. "Do not go against that nation." "We're going against that nation." And so all of that obviously is what we call sin, transgression. And because God loves us so much, his desire is to redeem us. He has a constant desire. Even from the very Genesis chapter, uh, 2 or 3, um, it talks about, um, the fact that they ate the fruit, and now they have to be kicked out of the garden. But then it introduces this mysterious figure who is going to redeem the world. And that she referenced that earlier. And so I'm just curious to know, um, how on your view, there's any hope, how there is any, um, uh, ability to be good, because the Old Testament and the New Testament are consistent in that they rightly describe the human condition is fallen. We are naturally selfish people. I know we would like to think of ourselves as good people, but if we're being honest, we're a mixed bag. Like, we call our friends, "Oh, she's such a liar," but then when someone texts us and we don't want to be home, "Oh, girl, I'm not home." That's a lie. You know, so it's like, we know, I feel like in ourselves that there are a lot of inconsistencies. And the Bible as a whole gets that right, and it then offers a solution for us to be made good through a loving God who sent his son. So I'd be curious to hear from you, like, how do you have hope and how can you make yourself good on your view?

Well, so for me, when you just mentioned as like it was through his loving son, I agreed with everything you were saying up until that point because for me, I look at Moses, and I look at that he broke the Ten Commandments and then had to get a whole new set after that. So he showed in that moment that he trespassed against God, didn't do what God wanted, and then struggled with that. Right? For me, like, I was raised being told that we were the chosen people. I consider that we were chosen to struggle. That's a part of like our fight, right? And I think that like we, we do what we can to be good. And I, and when you're asking like, how can we be good? Well, Moses broke the Ten Commandments, had to get a new set, and then never even got to Israel. He led his people to Israel, but he wasn't rewarded, right? And so, wow, I do remember something from Jewish school. But so, you know, like, so for me, I think that was what I learned, and that's what made me realize that it's not about truth, because we're never going to know. For me, I 100% believe in God. I know that he exists. Do I know in what form and what and how? No. I just believe that to some degree, when you say God is love, I, I believe in that. You know, I think that love exists because of him. Now, I just, when I look at that story, I'm like, well, we can struggle. We can make mistakes. We can do good. Our legacy can breed good. That doesn't mean we will always be rewarded. And I think that like, I think that more than anything is the way that I choose to live my life, right?

mentioned about the sacrifice and atoning, all that stuff. So I, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I know you guys can confess your sins, and we do more. I mean, James tells us to confess, we are supposed to confess. Yeah. Okay. So we do have one day a year, the Day of Atonement. And so I always say, like, you know, we get it all. We, we have one day where we're supposed to sit and atone for all of our sins. And I, it's actually, it's like 12 days, right? Between the two holidays. It's actually every single day. Uh, but answer, answer, and then I'll, and then I'll. Okay. So, so the way I've always done it, the way I was raised, you know, there's these 12 days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And you reflect on your year. Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year. Jewish New Year, and Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement. And you're, you spend those 12 days kind of reviewing. My interpretation is you review your year and you think, "How did I live this past year, and how could I do better?" And we take bread, we throw.

It in the in moving water to kind of cast our sins away. And I, every year, always go on a hike, and I try to meditate, and I really try to think like, "What is this very silly sin?" But for a year, I kept going to a rock climbing gym without paying. I was sneaking in, and I was like, "Okay, that was my sin." And, you know, I'm gonna think about that. I'm gonna pay for a membership. That's just one silly sin that I thought of.

But I really do try and think like, I really do take those 12 days, even though I don't believe in God. That's something that I think is so important that our text tells us to do. And I'm like, "I'm going to think about everything I did this year, and how can I be better? How can I gossip less? How can I, um, teach these kids better? How can I show up for my family better?" And I really, really try and think about it.

And then I, I do go to synagogue. Um, I always go on Yom Kippur, and they read out all the sins, and I beat my chest, and I think, you know, these are the things I did this past year. This is what I'm going to do better, and kind of make resolutions like we do on secular New Year's that I uphold. And I think that's how I try and become a better person through apologizing to people. Yeah.

So, once there was the destruction of the temple, prayer replaced sacrifice, right? So prayer is actually the way that today Jews would engage in that kind of thing. There's a prayer called the Amida. It's the standing prayer. And then from that liturgy developed, like, beyond that. But within the Amida, there's the, there's 18, it's actually 19 things that we say. One of them is, "Forgive us for we have sinned for the thing." So there's actually space every single day for us to think about what we've done. However, um, it's correct that that Yom Kippur is like the big moment, and Elul, which is the month that leads up to that, is also a big moment. We have this like big, this time where we're supposed to go inner, go deep. It's called accounting of your soul, of what have I done? How do I, how do I keep myself with being a better person? And then on Kol Nidre, or on, um, Yom Kippur, the evening of Yom Kippur, we recite this thing called Kol Nidre, which is all vows that I have taken in the last year, they're nullified, and I am able to start a new. And that is like the biggest thing is that we believe every day we are given a new chance. God, the soul that you have given me this day is pure. And on Yom Kippur, for the, the year, we are given a chance to restart and, and be our best version of ourselves next year. Thank you.

I want to get back to the questions. I'm sorry, but we have to answer these questions, and they will naturally bring up the things that you're going to say anyway. So, I do have a question for the ladies on the Christian side. Do you think the Torah and all the laws in it are still fully binding on God's people today?

Well, yeah. I was gonna kind of share because I had that question about atonement because in the Old Testament, the Levitical laws, like the currency of the spirit realm is bloodshed. And so that's why they would sacrifice the pure, spotless lamb because there had to be blood shed in order for the atonement of our sins. And that's why the blood of Jesus is so important because that's the universal bloodshed that abolished those laws so we don't have to do it anymore. Because I grew up a cultural Christian, like I can relate, like, "Oh, this is just what we are." But I didn't understand the word. And so I always thought the Levitical stuff is kind of weird, you know, like, why is this here? And then, um, because I didn't understand the word, I accidentally dabbled in stuff that would be categorized in the Bible as like witchcraft. And then I went down this whole rabbit hole of this demonic side of things. And blood is actually a currency they use. They still sacrifice, you know, like animals, and they drink blood. They do all this stuff. And so my question was, what if you're just going by the Levitical laws, like, what in scripture allows you to substitute that for prayer instead? Because we get to substitute through the blood of Jesus. Thank you. Like, I'm glad I don't have to be killing any chickens. But, uh, that was my question. And then, um, I forgot what your question was.

So, do you think the Torah and all the laws in it are still fully binding on God's people? Okay. So, yeah, it's no longer binding. Thank you, Jesus. Because that would be weird, you know, like, that always confused me as a cultural Christian. I didn't know the full context of the Bible. So I saw the Old, and I didn't have the context of the New, where it's Jesus, his death on the cross abolished all of that. So now we just have to repent, and we get the blood of Jesus that washes us clean. And I know it sounds weird, like, "Okay, blood," but that's how it works. And when I saw how the dark side works with actual blood, you don't drink blood for no reason. You know, like, they're doing it because they're getting an actual spiritual benefit from it. And it wasn't until I had my encounter with God that I was like, "Whoa, snaps." Like, God is real. He's not just this concept or this idea. Like, I experienced the power of God. I experienced miracles in my body, and I experienced demonic things, too. And I was like, "Well, if the demons and Satan is real, then God must be real." And so when I went to the New Testament, it just filled in those gaps that I was missing as a cultural Christian my whole life that led me into the wrong path. But the full truth, you know, the Holy Spirit is described as the spirit of truth. And when we keep surrendering to that, that'll naturally calibrate us back to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It's not by our power we're able to do it. It's through our submission and then us inviting him. Because in Genesis, it says he gave dominion to us, to humans, on the earth. So the spirit realm actually needs our permission. And so that's what submission is to the Holy Spirit, and that allows us to be closer to, you know, not perfection, but that, you know, it's by the power of God we can do these things in His grace. It's not us, you know.

Can you just, uh, quickly share what you mean by "cultural Christian"? Uh, where I was raised, like, "God is good," you know, "Jesus loves me," and I went to a Christian school where we would memorize scriptures, but I didn't really get the full context. I didn't have real encounters with God. I didn't know about baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I didn't know we had authority in the name of Jesus. And then I started researching, like, even alien abductions. There's hundreds of alien abductions where they said the name of Jesus, and it stopped it instantly. There's no other name you can say that it'll stop it. So I was like, "Huh, that's kind of interesting. That one name is so controversial, and it even gets UFO aliens to move, you know?" So that's what it filled in the gaps for me. So the New Testament abolished the kind of Old Testament stuff, in my opinion.

Okay. Um, and I was just going to say with, um, with your prompt, the, the reason why I put the, the hands down is because, um, Jesus said in the book of Matthew, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come to fulfill them. For most assuredly, I say to you, not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled." So Jesus fulfilled the law, and then his blood was shed. So, correct me if I'm wrong from my understanding. So Jesus absolved all of us from sin? Yes. So if I were to just say, "Jesus is God," or "I accept Jesus as my savior," then no matter what I do the rest of my life, I'm saved? Absolutely not. So there's the fruit of the spirit. So again, this would, this is why it would be phenomenal if you guys explored the New Testament, because there is something called the fruit of the spirit that Paul writes about in his epistles in Galatians. And it says the fruit of the spirit is kindness, gentleness, self-control, longsuffering, meekness, these things. So if you're a Christian and you have the Holy Spirit, God's spirit living on the inside of you, you are supposed to be producing this fruit, these things. If you're not producing the fruit, something we like to say is, "Check the fruit." If you can see if somebody is a believer or not. So if you live a life where you're, you know, committing double homicides, and you're a really mean person, and your spirit is not actually in alignment with what the Bible says, then you would say, "Okay, I'm not sure if that person is a Christian." The purpose of Jesus's grace, his blood shed on the cross. Grace, people think about grace as mercy, a lot of the time, like substitutionary sacrifice. Jesus died for me, we all get to go to heaven. But grace also means empowerment. So grace empowers us to do the things that we otherwise would not be able to do in our own flesh. So when we receive the grace of God, it actually empowers us to live a life that is pleasing to God. And we're not doing that by our own merit, but we're doing it through the blood of Jesus Christ. Yeah.

I just want to add, um, I used to be in, like, a cult. I was, um, I actually consider myself like a Black Jew. And so this question really hits home whether, if, if the laws, I think you said, like, uh, if, yeah, if it abolished. I just wanted to add that, like, I, I genuinely, when I was following the laws, I didn't see true transformation. Um, I had to, I followed rules such as like, "Women can't wear pants." I had to cover my head. And when, right when I, when I read the Bible for myself and I realized that, um, Jesus was real and Jesus was God, that transformation that I thought I had beforehand, it, it dispelled. So, um, we don't think that the laws, although the laws are still very real and they do lead to transformation in a sense, not, it's just not in the inner man. So they're fulfilled. Yeah. It's just, it's fulfilled. Exactly. God's covenant with Israel is still in effect today. Okay. Who would like to answer that?

So, what I was going to say is, yes, I do think that the promise between God and Israel is still, you know, in effect. God doesn't change. But what I want to, what I would, um, go a little bit deeper is, what is the identity of Israel? Because as you said, Israel is Jacob, and so, you know, descendant of Abraham. Um, in that scripture that you just said, um, the, the full text of it is, "I will make you a great nation. I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." And he's talking to Abraham. And then he goes on to say, um, "And in you all the nations of the earth will be blessed." And so, the new covenant is Jesus. And so, Israel are people that are ingrained through Christ. Because we see in Galatians, um, if you're in Christ, you are ingrained into Abraham's seed and in his promise. So that's what I think, um, Israel, the, the promise still is between God and Israel, but Israel is, um, believers, you know, people that follow the Messiah to the death. So you believe Israel is for Christians, is, is what you're believing?

Anyone can be a Christian, though. So anyone can accept Jesus as the Messiah. So do you guys believe that, like, you guys are the only chosen people? Like, do you think, like, if I'm not Jewish, like, I cannot, like, enter into heaven? Like, I just want to know more about salvation.

Yeah. You guys don't have salvation? Yes. So that's for, like, for me, I mean, and you'll have a more religious answer, I'm sure. But, no, I feel like for us, it's not, you cease to exist. Our spirit, like, lives on. Our soul lives on. But so this was one of the questions that I didn't get to get to, but I think it kind of ties in. Can Gentiles be fully included in God's covenant people? Yes. No, that's that's two. That's two. So, I think, Okay.

So, I, I think that there's a, there's a, like, for me, we, we, in, in the, at the end of, of the end of our service, we say "Alenu," which is like, it's on us. And it talks about God's covenant with the Jewish people and, um, how we were separated from the other nations of the earth. And I, there are a lot of people that have actually struggled with this idea, a lot of Jews that have struggled with the idea of chosenness. And I happen to be one of those people that struggled with the idea of what does it mean to be chosen? And I don't think, I mean, you, you, so funny, you were like, "Yeah, we were chosen to suffer." And, and I think really, well, for us, the people that are telling our story of our people. Yeah. I would hope that we would see ourselves as chosen the same way that I would hope every people would see themselves as chosen because we're here to live on this earth and hopefully be good people. Right.

And, and, um, and people that are not Jewish are also obligated to some mitzvot, right? The 10, the Ten Commandments. That's something that all of us share. Where Jews have 613. Um, and so I, I absolutely 100% think that, like, all of us were put on this planet to hopefully do what we can to be the best versions of ourselves and, like, inspire each other to think differently and think, like, more largely about the world. Like, I don't, I don't see your views at all as threatening to my views, and I would hope that you would feel the same. And actually, the, the magic or the, the growth comes from us talking to each other and learning from each other. And so everyone can go to, like, can have paradise. We do have this idea of, of paradise. It's not the same as heaven. We don't quite have hell, like, but also, like I said earlier, we really busy ourselves with living in this world at this time. And, like, the afterlife, if that happens, will happen when the Messiah comes. And that's like, but that's a, a perspective from apocrypha or whatever. So it's, and because we don't believe in, like, the heaven and hell, I think that's why we don't believe in perfection, right? Just because if you end up get to the end of your life and you have sinned, that doesn't mean you're automatically going to hell. And if you haven't, you know, taken in the Messiah as someone that you're not automatically granted or not granted to go into heaven. Like, we don't have that judgment. Um, for us, our judgment is every day. There is so much diversity. We actually had one person who was on the Jewish side that wasn't able to make it today, and it would have been interesting to hear what her perspective was. There's so much diversity. But in terms of just everyone here, do we think that the land promises that were made to Israel are still relevant today?

I doubt all these things. I, I mean, I think we can all agree that it's a bit of a show over there. And I just feel like if God was really protecting this land, like, would we maybe have more peace there?

Well, I would say the opposite. I would say that the Hebrews are, or the Jews, are entitled to Israel because God is a covenant-keeping God, and He's a, He's a man of His word. So when He says something, He doesn't default on it. And Genesis, like you were talking about, even Daniel talks about how God has a covenant with His people if they keep, if they keep His commands. Um, but all that to say is, I do think the land promise is relevant. My question though is, like, who is Israel? Because I think that a lot of people are related in that region, and so who gets entitlement of the property? And then secondly, to your concern, um, about the fact that it's not a safe place and people are dying and horrific things are happening. It actually, in Judaism, you guys have this concept of Messiah Ben David and Messiah Ben Joseph. And so Messiah Ben David is the reigning king, and then Messiah Ben Joseph is the suffering king. Correct me if I'm wrong. Um, but I think it's totally plausible again to see Jesus as the Messiah in this way because the first time Jesus came, He suffered. He came to establish a spiritual kingdom because we were spiritually dead. Um, and then the second time that He comes, He's going to be establishing a heavenly kingdom on earth. Revelation talks about how God is going to establish a new Jerusalem and a new earth, and there's going to be peace in the city. But Jesus had to address that spiritual problem first before He could address the physical problem because our souls, you know, we belong, we belong in eternity. And so He has to deal with the fact that we're not reconciled to the Father. And so He comes and He's that substitutionary sacrifice. I think the problem is we have, like you were saying, we have this temporal view of the earth. And so if things are not good here, it must not mean that God is good. But that's not necessarily true. God is so good that He made sure that our souls could be in alignment with Him before He could give us these temporary things here on earth. He said, "Pick up your cross and and follow Me." You know, "You will be persecuted. You will be hated for My name's sake." You know, He said, "It's not going to be easy." Yeah. So, but there is salvation at the end. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. No cross, no crown. That's all I wanted to start. That's what we believe. No cross, no crown. So, there's going to be a struggle. Like, what would life be without a struggle? I always say, like, if we didn't suffer, every one of us would just be spoiled brats. So, just because your parent gives you a promise and it doesn't happen in the exact way that you want it, it doesn't discredit their faithfulness to you. They might be trying to grow something in you, which is what we believe, like building character as as Christians. And I think it calls into question, like, um, not in question, but, um, we walk by faith and not by sight. Like, just because it's not happening right now doesn't mean it's never going to happen. Yeah, we live in the here and not yet. And I had one other prompt from one, something that you read where you said, "Can Gentiles be engrafted in?" That to me, that's already in the Old Testament with the book of Ruth, when, you know, she was a Moabite. She married Boaz, and is even in the bloodline of Jesus. So it is based on faith. It's always been based on faith.

Do you believe that God works differently with Jews and Gentiles in His plan for salvation? Do you believe that God works differently with Jews and Gentiles in His plan for salvation?

That, I think the reason I'm struggling because I don't know necessarily if I believe in salvation. Yeah, that's the hard part. If we don't believe that salvation exists, then to me, I feel like everything, I don't feel like you have to do religion in any specific way to get God's approval. For me, it's about being a good human. And that ranges, right? Like, I, as a gay woman, and I've, you know, I grew up going to churches, I was told that, you know, I'm sinning because I'm gay, right? And so already there's a, a disconnect there for me, right? But I don't, I still believe I'm a good person. And then in that case, if salvation did exist, I would hope that I would be saved based on the fact that I'm a good human, and not necessarily because, you know, I lie with another woman.

But what makes you a good human? Um, for me, I would say the Ten Commandments do a big, are a big part of what my driving force, you know, like, I, and obviously, like, I say God in vain, so not every, I don't follow every commandment, but I do think that not causing harm to others where it's undue is a big one. Um, and I think trying to help as much as you can is a good one. And I, and I think that caring about your community and honoring your family and not coveting others or being envious, those are all good fabrics of identity and and how I would like people to to live their life.

Ever since, uh, ever since the Holocaust, there was this more popularized theology of thinking of God as the hidden God, or that God removed Godself from the earth in some way, right? So like that, that over the last 5,000 years, God has shifted in God's role. And by the way, I like very intentionally I'm saying God so many times because I don't like using pronouns for God because God is neither male nor female nor anything. And so I think the only way to say it is God. Um, but that, so I, I, I have a hard time thinking that, like, God is really working with any one individual in any way necessarily. And also at the same time, I'm like, "Yeah, 100%." But I think for me, God is in the space in between, right? Like, God is like these moments where there's like these frequency alignments that happen that you just can't explain where you're like, "I've just met somebody and they're my soulmate," and I can't explain why. And it's not necessarily romantic. It's not nec, but this, this magic that happens on a on a higher level that to me is like the proof of the existence of God. When I go out on a hike and I see the perfection of nature, I'm like, "That's God." If I sit and I think about the way that we've had technology develop to the way that we can cure disease, the way that we can, like, science, and to me, science and God, like, they're the same. They're the same thing. It's the human, um, the human intelligence, the human knowledge. If we were all created in the image of God, well, then perhaps our capacity to contribute to this world and make it great is what is the representation of God.

What about the things that defy science? And like you said, you don't think that God works with people individually. So if you're someone who studies the Torah and reads about Moses and parting the Red Sea, how do you explain that as a work of God?

Yeah. So I, I, first of all, like, that wasn't for only Moses. It was for the Israelites, right? It was for the Israelites to escape. Um, I, but also I think that there's like the, the, there's been a, um, progression of, of God's role, right? So that's, and that is, that is a theory, right? It's not the theory of Judaism in any way, shape, or form, but that as we come closer to the coming of a Messiah or a messianic era, um, then God sort of starts to remove Godself even more. And it's like more on us to hopefully make this world a better place. And where is that like, where do you get that concept? Is that something that's just within your belief? Is that something that you personally feel?

I mean, yeah, part of it is personal, part of it is, um, there's, there's a, a rabbi, and I can't think of his name right now, and a book, his book was just released, and I mean, he was sort of talking about what you were talking about, how like, we might not see it in this world, that that this notion of, of Tikkun Olam, which is like the role to repair the world and make it greater. The Mishna says, "You are not required to finish the work, but nor are you required, nor are you free from starting it." Right? So our time on earth is so limited. Our life is so limited. We can only do what we can do in our lifetime. But that shouldn't make us hedonists that think that, "Okay, well, then it's not my problem." Actually, it is our problem to play a role. Um, and so I, I guess like the, for me, the hidden God thing is more a, a personal piece where there's moments where I'm just like, "I don't know." But then there's moments where I'm like, "Wow, this is, this word of awe also has fear at the same, like, this one Hebrew word carries both." And so I think about that a lot of like Adonai, like we're supposed to, that's one interpretation, but also awe of God. The word carries both, right? So I tend towards, I think that most of my experiences in life have been the awe side, where there's other people that have maybe had the fear side as they're as they're driving.

There is only one true path to God. So, what's so interesting to me is this conversation around salvation because something I kind of continue to hear echoed is like, "You guys will never reach perfection." Um, follow the Ten Commandments or even the Noahide laws, um, and you'll be a good person. But to me, that sounds like striving for perfection because it's a lot of doing. It's a lot of ritual. It's a lot of trying to atone for your sin. It's a lot of trying to keep the Ten Commandments. And that's why to us, this concept of substitutionary sacrifice makes sense because that's what was consistent with the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible is that things would actually have to have their blood shed. Something would have to die in our place. And so, I don't really understand how that system was replaced with prayer. That doesn't seem consistent with the character of Yahweh. What seems more consistent is that something better, yet someone, would have to die in the place of us, which we believe is is Jesus Christ. Um, and then also with the Ten Commandments, like you said, we don't keep them. We break them all the time. And primarily, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." And so what I think is like disheartening is that you guys are pretty much unanimously saying that people can find multiple paths to God, yet that's so contrary to what the Ten Commandments say. So how can you be a practicing Jew and yet make room for other gods in your theology?

Those are two different statements. So I think, so I think the thing that you're saying, you're asking for practicing Jews that also will probably be argued here because I am a Jew. I'm not practicing anything. I am a Jew because I'm culturally and bloodline Jewish, and in my, my ancestry is Jewish, and most of my family died in the Holocaust. So for me, it's it's my identity and the fabric of, like, it makes me up as a human beyond just my faith. That's why I struggled so much with that question, "Does faith define?" Um, and so I think that's, for me, that's that's a distinction. And I think if you had someone like, as she mentions, Orthodox here, that really believed in following every aspect of the text, like, I, I have so much respect for you guys having these texts memorized. Like, I feel like I need to go start studying immediately. Um, but and, and I think that that strengthens so much of your faith because you have the text. For me, it's not a matter of, like, whether the Bible exists, like, is real or not real. I mean, it exists. It's been verified. Do I, do I believe in everything in it? I, I don't know if I, for me, it's about interpretation, and I think that's the part that is the difference. We don't look at it as like a manual or like this is 100% what happened. For us, it's a story, or at least for me, and how I look at religion. It's a story that we interpret and hopefully can take good out of it. And that's where I think it's, it's hard for us in this way to communicate as well because you guys have like, particularly like you three have been really like mentioning a lot of text, which I wish I could argue directly with, but I can't because I don't have that same knowledge.

I know that there's an ethnic and religious distinction in in Judaism. I guess I just don't understand how that happened because it is an ethno-religion. Like, when God established His covenant with Abraham, it was Abraham establishing a covenant with God. And so, like, at some point, for all people, so at some point in your history, like, people began to disregard Yahweh. And so I guess I don't understand, like, why they're separate, how they became separate, or why there's no conviction over the fact that you're separated from your faith.

I can answer that just, well, one, we've been around for so, so long, you know, even in the most basic way, there's been peer pressure when there was like the, the Greeks coming to, to the land of Israel and, you know, you start getting influence of like, "Oh, let me worship this god." And so, you know, if you were, if we were to start a week ago, we would obviously be very, very, very strong, but over the course of 6,000 years, people diverge, people get influenced by by different circumstances. Yeah. And, you know, sure. My family, um, moved right, moved to America right before the Holocaust. Um, so, you know, saw some sketchy signs and we're like, "Yeah, we're out of here." Yeah. We were also killed everywhere from the beginning of time. Like, we're expelled from everywhere. They moved, they, they moved to America and put a wreath on their door and got a Christmas tree. And that was survival and assimilation. And my parents married each other, and my mom was raised Conservative and kept kosher and was Bat Mitzvahed. And my dad, this is only funny to you guys, but says Baruch Ata Adonai. And, um, you know, it was approved by my mom's parents and okay. And, and then I am a product of those two people. And if you're asking where the distinction is, it's like, yeah, we've been around since the beginning of time. And, and some of it was purely safety. And I think a lot of the reason that my dad, you know, knows not one thing about Judaism was just his parents were in survival mode, and they moved to America, and they kind of, I don't know if they were intentionally hiding, but they were just like, "Yo, people really hate us, so we're going to put the wreath on the door and we're going to do Christmas and we're not going to have a Bar Mitzvah." But we're Jewish, and you know, if Hitler came here today, we'd put that star on no matter what because, you know, if you have one drop of Jewish blood, you're Jewish, and you're, you're. Yeah.

I, I'd actually, I'd love to flip the disheartening nature of, I actually think it's amazing that we're here and we are still Jewish and we are still so proud to be Jewish, and that you see such pluralism of like, not even believing. Like, it's amazing. You, it could be so easy for you to say, "I don't believe in God. I don't want to get myself busy with that. I don't want to take a life of experiencing anti-Semitism and experiencing these challenges and struggles," and the opposite happens. Um, to, to go back to your question about the, the, about God. So I, I, what I heard from the question was, do you believe that there is a single path to God? Not, do you believe that there is a single God? Or that there is only God? Right? Those are two total, they're intertwined. Those are totally different questions for me. That every person is on their own journey to get to what I would say is the, the, that there is only God. Hands down, 100% there is only God. How people are going to get there, that's the joy in the journey of life. But that's the distinction. They're saying that there's an actual rubric, like there's the Bible that tells you, "Hey, follow this and you'll get to God." So if by us saying there's a million different ways to do it, then we're basically, your, your argument is, we basically don't have.

You guys are ethnically Jewish but not religiously Jewish. But there are plenty of Orthodox people that will father me. If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. There's a Hebrew saying that's called "Chutzpah," which means, like, religious, in my opinion. And obviously, it somewhat rhymes. And that is when you kind of decide, like, "I'm, you know, there's 613 mitzvot, and so many ways to live your Jewish life and practice it, whether it's ethnically or religiously." And for me, I know like I, I like celebrating Shabbat. I like kind of having that distinction of like, this is a day of rest. This is a day where of of becoming with my community and lighting candles and doing that. And I like also doing Havdalah, which is something that I didn't do growing up as my family. That's something I grew up doing at sleepaway camp, and I liked it. And, you know, you kind of pick and choose. It's kind of Havdalah means distinction. You celebrate it on Saturday. Um, in Judaism, the days start the evening of, um, when three stars come out. So when three stars come out on Saturday night, that means we are now entering the work week. And so we have different rituals of smelling spices, um, lighting candles, and drinking wine, and singing songs, and having that distinction. This was a holy day, and now we're going into what we call "yom" like sand days, regular days, unholy days. You kind of pick and choose, like, you know what, I like bacon. I like cheeseburgers. I love shrimp and calamari. I don't want to restrict myself doing that, and I like driving on Saturday. Other people, you know, they, they decide to do everything. You know, you kind of pick and choose. And I don't think I'm less Jewish than somebody who decides to cover their hair.

This is also sort of an American thing, right? I mean, I grew up, I grew up in Israel, born and raised. I came here for college. I think there, and that's something that I find like very interesting for me coming to diaspora, where in Israel, you really take your Judaism as something not just for granted, but obvious. Like on, on holidays, the streets are shut down. There's no work. And whereas here, being in college as a, sorry, when I was in college, I really had to make an effort to, to be like, "Oh, no, on Friday nights, this is what I do. Like, I don't mess with my schedule. This is, this is a part of me. This is an integral part of my identity that I have to make an effort to, to make do." So, yes, I'm ethnically Jewish. I don't consider myself religious, but the religion is part of who I am. Yeah.

I just want to add two things. I think like as the conversation that we're having gets, like, you know, as we're progressing, it's becoming like abundantly clear that, like, and maybe it's just me, that there really is like practicing Jews and then Jews as a culture. And I think that, like, communication, but because we started off the conversation with us being so identified in our faith, I really do see that, like, disconnect that we're having right now. Like, we are defending our faith, and I think these questions are surrounding our faith. There, there's something there. There's clearly something lost in translation, right? And I think adding to that, I think a part of what I'm seeing as far as like the, the Jewish people as a whole, um, the kind of like rebellion against the culture in itself, I think is largely due to you guys not believing in Jesus and him like dying, um, to fulfill the laws. And, and I think that's that's also what I'm seeing as you guys as a people.

So, a question for my ladies on the Jewish side. Why doesn't the Jewish faith actively try to convert other people?

I think this question actually goes back to your question that you asked before about whether or not other people that aren't Jewish have a, like, can have a relationship or connection with God that are, can, can achieve salvation, like, however you want to phrase this. So, if for us, the answer to that question is yes, well, so then you don't need to be Jewish. It's okay. Like, we are, we are all on this journey of striving to be good people in this world. We'll all have a chance at whatever there are some ideas of of of salvation. Like, we, we'll all get there. You don't have to be Jewish to do that. Um, and it's, it's, and therefore, it's like actually really challenging to convert into Judaism for somebody who does want to convert into Judaism because it's not, it's not a, a, um, it's not a religion, right? We're not just a religion. I think that's one, again, I think I said this before, it's one of the biggest misconceptions about us that we're a people. Uh, and so if you want to be part of us, you're going to have to do some work to be part of us, but also you don't have to be part of us to, you don't think it's necessary. That's what you're saying. Exactly. Yeah.

I also, if I can just quickly add that I think, so, and I hope this isn't like too provocative, but I think so much of being Jewish is the generational trauma that it's kind of like, if you didn't go through, you know, we've been persecuted for so many years, have confronted such struggles that like, do you really have what it takes, you know, like, this is, are you sure you want to be a part of this? Like, yes, we're the chosen ones, chosen to struggle, I believe in that as well, but like, this is some, you know, an exclusive community. It takes a lot. You are, you know, putting yourself out there into stuff that maybe you don't want to be. So, I don't think that, you know, this is a, something that we're trying to promote and, and do you have what it takes? So, you don't want to like invite someone into something that could be painful versus you're saying that like, you don't deserve to be part of this?

No, we definitely don't. I think it's a mixture of both, like, like you haven't been through it, you know? You kind of have to to to, I'm not saying you have to go through struggles to then be like, "Oh, you know what? You, you've, I've heard, I've heard your trauma. I've heard your story, but so much of it is is I think generally generational trauma is such a thing and something that we carry upon us and the way that we live being, um, third generation to a like Holocaust survivor. It's something that's really ingrained in you.

I was taught slightly differently in this, that those that do want to convert into our religion, they're not souls that are converting. They are souls that have always been Jewish and they're just coming home. They're returning. Exactly. So for, for us, we're not trying to go and and get people to be someone else. We want people that are Jewish to be connected with their faith and connected with who they are as people. It's, I don't, for us, it's about preservation. It's not about, um, taking over anybody else. We don't, we don't like, we're not like, despite what people think currently with our political climate, we're not here to to take over anybody else's religion or anybody else's faith or anybody else's way of life. We want to preserve our own. Um, and I think that's the biggest, the biggest difference. And once somebody does convert, there's no question, like, they're, you're Jewish. And actually, it's, it's like, it's unacceptable to question someone's Judaism. And it's, it's seen as like a sin, maybe is a word that you would use to say if somebody doesn't believe someone who converted or whatever, and even ask like, "Oh, well, how are you Jewish?" Right? Like, that's not, that's not who we are. If someone tells us they're Jewish and they've done the work, and the work is extensive. It's like a year-long process. It's not just like, "Hey, I'm Jewish."

Converting out is also so interesting to me as a concept. Um, my brother has accepted Jesus as his savior, and he calls himself a Christian, but I think of him as Jewish, and he's a Messianic Jew. But you guys probably see him as Christian. And we see him as a Messianic Jew, a Jew that acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. New word for me. But, like, he will never, in my eyes, not be Jewish because our parents are Jewish. So, well, like you said, it's an ethno thing. There's the religion and the, the ethnic component identity. Like you said, he's still a Jew, and the difference, he's still Jewish. He's just.

I see kind of the salvation that we see is like, so we believe in the Trinity, and in Genesis, it says that God made, he says, "Us in His image." Us in His image. So He uses plural language for God. So I don't know how you would kind of interpret that as like, there is multiple natures of God. And so that confirms the Holy Spirit and Jesus. And the way I kind of make sense of it in my brain is like, it's, it comes down to covenant and free will. Like, the core of the gospel is a loving God will never force you to love Him, right? And so He has this clear pathway for you to open the door of His love, the abundance that He has for you. And so Jesus is essentially that doorway. And the way I envision it is like His, uh, to, His sacrifice was kind of like that proposal to be in covenant because the easiest way I can understand covenant is marriage, right? So, it's like there's two people, and the man gets down on the knee and asks, you know, invites you into this blessing, into this life, and it's still up to me to say yes and no. And so, there needs to be that clear yes and no because we do have free will. And so, we can't just accidentally stumble into it. Like, we have to know and say yes because that's what true love is. You don't force somebody or trick somebody into loving you. So, that's how I see a loving God.

But then love is conditional, correct? That if you do not accept the covenant with God, then you're not loved by Him? You're always loved by Him, but you, like the man proposing, will love you and always love you, but you have to choose to love Him back and say yes and go to the covenant. Yeah. He chose us before the foundations of the world. Yeah.

Okay. So, we're going to wrap it up here. Thank you so much for being here, for sharing. This was really interesting, and we learned a lot of things, and hopefully, we're able to gain some new perspectives and hopefully opportunities to explore more. I want to hear from you ladies in terms of what you heard today and how maybe it's impacted you or something that you may want to share with those who are watching or with one another.

Yeah, I knew that Judaism was an ethno-religion, and I knew like coming into this, there would probably be secular Jews or Orthodox Jews, hopefully a mixed bag. Um, but I think what again is is hard for me to reconcile is I don't know how you read the Tanakh and come away thinking that God does not require your utmost loyalty. And to your point about, you know, thousands of years of oppression and genocide and intermixing, even the word addresses that, like God Himself says, "Don't mix with the pagan nations. Don't bring idolatry into this land." In Jeremiah, it talks about the Babylonian exile, like the Jews were exiled to Babylon because of their idol worship. And so, I don't know how you reconcile your ethnic identity with your religious identity, knowing that God desired for them to be intertwined with each other. And then lastly, I'll say Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He's not the Christian Messiah. He's the Jewish Messiah. And because he was the Messiah, Christianity opened up because it traveled throughout the world. This is why Paul says there's no Jew or

Gentile in Christ Jesus. What the disciples do is they go and take it. This is what the great commission says. Matthew 28:18-19, it says, "Go therefore baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit."

So when Jesus came, he came for you guys. He came for your people. And then he ascends to heaven. And he says, "Okay, my disciples, my Jewish disciples, now I want you to go out into the world and lead people back to truth." And so, this is not an exclusive Western white American Christianity. This is a Christianity who has a Jewish Messiah at the epicenter of it. And then people coming out and sharing it with others.

One last thing I'll say is that Christians were martyred. Steven himself was stoned to death in Acts 7 and the disciples were martyred. Peter was hung up. He was he he died crucified upside down. Um Christianity has still prevailed. We still have this text that tells the truth. Africans were colonized and yet Christianity reigns supreme in an uncolonized place in Ethiopia. And so even though there has been mixing and discrimination, the word will always prevail. And if you want to tap into that truth, it's always accessible for you.

And I just wanted to say one thing because you had mentioned like the accuracy of the Bible. One thing that we can say is that the Bible has been cross-referenced, the Old and New Testament, or if you want to call it the Hebrew Bible with the New Testament, the Greek. It's been cross-referenced over 68,000 times. There were 500 eyewitness accounts that saw Jesus resurrect from the dead. He was walking on this earth, holes in his hands and feet appearing to people after they saw him be crucified. Um, he said, "I am the way to the father. I am the way, the truth, the life." And so we just that's that's the accuracy of the Bible that we know.

I would say how do we know George Washington was president? We didn't live at that time. And um you know it was written in a history book. Why do we believe it? Well, because it's been historically documented with eyewitness accounts. And that's the same with Jesus resurrecting from the dead. We have all these eyewitness accounts that saw him and he appear he's appeared over the years to many people supernaturally appeared to people. So that's why we believe that the Bible is accurate and it doesn't contradict each other once. The Old and New Testament, they are one book that echo each other.

My big takeaway I um I at the beginning the first question was do we have more in common than not? And I went green and after this conversation I'm like oh we're so different and I didn't realize like I am shocked how in alignment you all are. Like that is really shocking to me. Um, I guess I didn't know that. I didn't know that you guys kind of all It's interesting. I think you're you all are clearly very smart and very very versed, but you're so so in agreement. And in a way, I'm jealous. I'm like, damn y'all. Like, you're like, how do you get inner peace? I'm like, I have no inner peace. Like, I I every day is a struggle for me, you know, and and I props to you guys.

We'll see. I um I I think my biggest takeaway uh is that to me the conversation felt like from our side we were explaining and just like diving into offering a perspective of like this is who we are. Take it or leave it. Cool. And I actually really felt that all of you were trying to convince me. Um and I'm actually not interested in being convinced. I'm like very happy being Jewish, living Jewishly, living religiously Jewishly. And I think that that's like a if I could have one wish, the wish would be that the that that people just let us be Jews. Like let us live Jewishly and let's disagree. And I love that we can have these different understandings, but it doesn't have to be for the sake of trying to convince us to become Christian because it's never going to happen.

For for me, I think my biggest takeaway is that I I think that I am doing myself a disservice to not know the text as well as you guys do. And I think that I will strengthen my own resolve as a Jew by reading those texts and actually being able to have like educated answers to your questions. um because I do think that text and history strengthen my belief and faith and certainly my arguments. So if anything I'm going to take away I'm going to start reading more and learning more and that is something that I am really grateful to each of you for that.

Um, but in that in that same sense that I if by the end of my reading this book and like really diving in I learned that like this is the the model that you have to follow to get to God I don't like that as inherently I don't my philosophy and maybe the hedenist in me cuz I definitely am as well but I think that for me there's I don't I don't want to believe in a world that is only one way to God. I don't want to believe in a world where there is just like one map and here we go. I think I celebrate our diversity in thought and in appearance and in creed and in race and I think that in sexuality and in gender and I think there's there's beauty in that and that belief that like we you know God like we are his made in his image then that is all inclusive of the ones that also don't agree and that want to fight against and that want to wrestle. And I think that that's where um I hope that in reading those texts, it just strengthens my own my own resolve in that.

Just on a lighter note, I I violated the Ten Commandment because I'm very jealous that you guys speak Hebrew. Like I really enjoy that. They do. I don't. Thank you. You said thank you so much ladies for being here. I appreciate all of you being here and sharing. So much was said. That was just really touching and inspiring. And I hope that you watching at home are also able to gain from this conversation. Leave us a comment and let us know what you thought or felt by listening to this conversation. And until next time, bye-bye. [Music]