Christian vs. Atheist Women | The Bridge

Faith or fact, belief or reason. In today's episode, we bring together Christian women and atheist women for an honest, unfiltered conversation. They will confront questions about morality, purpose, identity, the afterlife, and the role of religion in modern life. Can opposing beliefs come together to build a bridge of understanding? I am your host, Dr. Michelle Daff. Let's get into it.

I'm Francis and I'm a secular woman. I'm an atheist. And I am Sher. I am a agnostic atheist. I'm Becket. I'm an atheist. I'm Kayen Savannah. I'm an agnostic atheist. I'm Noel. I'm a Christian. I'm Caroline and I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. I'm Morgan and I'm a Christian. I'm Johanna. I'm a Christian. Thank you.

And the first prompt is if God existed, there wouldn't be so much suffering. Okay, anyone can start.

So if I could have done this, I would have done this simply because um I reject the premise in so far as if we are talking about the Abrahamic God, then one set of rules follows. If we're talking about different gods, different things follow. If we are referring to a benevolent god, um, that doesn't make sense. But if we're referring to a god that straight out the b out of the gate says, I'm actually kind of a hotthead, then the world in the context of which we live, it makes sense for certain things to happen. Let's say natural disasters and disease and what have you. If it's a if it's a punitive god and he says like, "Yeah, I'm actually kind of a I'm I'm a meanie and I don't care that I'm a meanie," then I'm like, "All right, like that's that's fair."

Yeah. I would say, you know, this isn't the world that God in intended. Um he created the world perfect and to be without suffering and sin is what created the world that we're living in now. Um, so I would say the reason why I disagreed with the prompt is because this isn't the world that God originally intended for it to be um, like in the garden.

So I also disagreed with the prompt. Um, mainly because I don't think that suffering is like mutually exclusive with the character of God. Um, for me, who I know God to be is somebody who would allow suffering and is okay with that and is if God exists, like it makes sense because God is also evil. So, and and good and all of the things and so it makes sense that his world would have uh suffering. He can't, you know, be here and allow it to happen like he is, you know, allowing it and is okay with it.

Yeah, I kind of disagreed on that same vein where um if God exists then he does allow for all this suffering to happen. So I don't think that those two things are mutually exclusive at all.

I'll piggy back on it and say that I disagree that God is evil. There is an evil god and his name is the devil. There's a god of this world. There's a god of the Bible, a god of heaven and earth. Um and what makes sin and sickness and disease enters because it's just a result result of a fallen world. So that's why we have to give our lives to Christ which grants us eternal life where there's no pain, no suffering where we can actually get into heaven one day.

But didn't God create the rules and Satan? Yeah, he created he told us certain things that we have to follow. But people he gave us free will. So when we go against his rules and his laws and commandments, that's how sin and death and enter this world. He created Satan. He was he was Lucifer at first. He was this amazing grand angel. But Satan rebelled against God. Again, free will. And as a result, that's how sin and death and darkness entered this world.

The Satan is the adversary. Lucifer is a fallen angel and the devil. Those are technically three separate beings. There's no scripture that explicitly states that Lucifer became the Satan and the adversary. It's the same thing. Satan, Lucifer, it's all the same thing. Uh they are all the same, just different names. The the devil has plenty of names in the Bible. He's called the devourer. He's called the thief. He's called an angel of light. He's called all of that. But it's just one one one figure, one being.

I mean, with with this logic though, it it kind of if if God is this omnisient, allpresent being, doesn't he have the power to remove sin?

I would like to say something um to piggy back off of what you said. I do not agree that God is evil. God is perfect and he is love. And because he is love, he has to allow freedom. He's not going to force anybody to do anything. So he allowed freedom in the garden and sin entered into the world because men chose to rebel. And it's not because of God there is suffering. Because there's man and God loves man and gave them freedom. There is suffering. But guess what? Jesus came and became a man and he endured the greatest suffering on the cross. And people may ask, why is it why isn't God doing anything? What is he going to do about it? Our timing is not God's timing. He already did something about it when he sent Jesus, but he's also going to do something about it later when there's redemption. So this life is but a mist. So we don't see God's perspective and he is a God of justice. So a lot of the things happening in this earth that makes our blood boil and makes us angry, it makes God even more angry. But we are not God. He will take care of it and only he can judge.

I'd like to add to that because I do kind of understand their viewpoint in a way of like hey why are we suffering and there is got to be some bad here right? Um but it also makes me think of Genesis 50 where he says I will use all things for good. So in the beginning he said I have given them dominion and so he gave us dominion. We have the dominion but when we fail that is when now sin was able to come in. So no god does not want us and he does not want these natural disasters to happen. He doesn't want a child to die of an illness. He doesn't desire that and it actually hurts him when it does happen. But he promised in Genesis 50 that he will use it all for our good. So that's how I would answer that.

How do you reconcile the fact that because Adam and Eve sinned means that generations and generations are now born with a sin nature when a little infant who has done nothing but come into the world? Why wouldn't God if if it's truly free will, it's truly freedom, why wouldn't God kind of start over with each individual human being? And there's a point where, you know, I know that Christians believe in the age of accountability, but I mean, ch even small children can be wicked at some points. You know, children are not blameless and all pure. They can be mean and and evil. But um why does the generational sin kind of how do you reconcile generational sin or this kind of attitude with the notion that we have free will and freedom?

Yeah, that's a good question. I like that you asked that. Um, how I would reconcile it is this. So, because one man sinned and it says this in the word of God, then all generations we were born into sin. And that's why the Lord sent G, God sent Jesus to reverse the curse. Now, through Jesus, now we can all have eternal life and be free. And even if you read about generational curses in the Bible and blessings, God actually gives more blessings to the blessed than curses. So he wants to bless us, but ultimately we have a decision. So we're born into sin, but we have a decision if we want to accept Christ or not.

But if God is all powerful, then can't he just change it with a snap his finger? Like why does it even have to be that way?

Well, I would I would say um you brought up the kid and a kid being evil in some sense of being selfish or having those characteristics. Um that's still a choice. And even though they they're not fully mature and they don't really fully understand those concepts, but also God's word says that he is just and that he is righteous and that he is the definition of what is good. And so just like if I went to a court and I committed a crime, if I killed someone, God forbid, um my penalty from a just judge would be the death sentence or it would be um a lifelong prison sentence. And if that judge didn't give me that penalty, then I would say that judge should not be a judge. That judge doesn't know what justice is. But because God is just, he is he gives the penalty for sin, which is death. But that's why he sent Jesus and and he is the judge who's stepping in and saying, "No, I'm going to pay your fee and I'm replacing you instead of you having that penalty."

But the difference between that and God is that court of law is not predetermined. And God is supposedly all knowing, knows our heart and our lives since the moment that we, you know, before we were stitched together or whatever it says in the Bible, that is not free will. That's not choice. If he knows what we're going to choose from the very beginning, why would he even do that and condemn someone? He also set that system up.

I would say though that even though you're saying, "Oh, he knew that people were going to sin and he knew that suffering was going to enter the world." Well, he also had to know that he was going to send his son and that he was going to have to die on the cross for our sins. That God was going to endure suffering on our behalf. So, I would say that that's a loving God who decides to create us in spite of knowing that he's going to have to suffer because of our decision.

I'd say that's not an equal trade. That's one person versus billions.

Well, I'll I'll piggy back on this. You said, "How come God just doesn't end it and just end sin and suffering?" He will one day, but he's giving people time to repent. The Bible says it's not God's desire that anyone should perish but that all come to repentance. So the reason why God is holding out. He's giving us more time to repent. He's reclaiming the loss. He's reclaiming those who don't believe in him. So he can immediately say, "All right, time's up. Everyone who believes, let's go to heaven. The others, they're they're going to go to hell."

Yeah, I disagree because I think that the fact that there is suffering probably proves the existence of some being. Um I don't think that God can be all powerful knowing and loving and then humans or an adversary just had with equal amount of power created all the evil. Um there's a verse in Isaiah where God says that he created good and evil and he the Lord is both of these things conveniently always skipped over by Christians in the church. We're always reconciled in a way that is doesn't make sense. I think God saying to kill innocent Canaanite women and children uh proves that God would allow suffering for innocent people and people who have done no wrong against him. Because my claim is that if God is good, he is also evil. And there can never be a world in which God exists and just is good and all powerful, but not evil or bad at all.

So I'll fact check you on that. You said that evil is all equally as powerful as God. That's not a lie. Luke 10:19 says Jesus has given us the authority to trample over snakes and scorpions and overcome all the power of the enemy. So we have authority over the enemy even as humans do. So that's not true. And if you could reference the uh the scripture in Isaiah, I'd love to to talk with you about that if you can quote it exactly since we conveniently skip over it so much.

Yeah, for sure. Do you have it? Because I can not off the top of my head. Okay. So next let us know very much look it up. Yeah. Yeah.

I disagreed because I don't believe that God exists and yet there is good and there is suffering. So, um, if God did exist, then he's allowing it to happen. I also agree. I think that if, um, if there were a God and there's also evil and like you said, he is, um, allowing us time to repent or allowing us time to change our beliefs. It it also implies that he is not all knowing because he doesn't know the outcome. He is waiting for a different outcome that he does not know if there were to be one.

I disagree with that. Um, it goes back to the free will thing. God does know the outcome, but he's still giving us time to make our own decision of what we want to do. Um, and I want to touch on some and then I have a question for you guys. Something that you said. You said if God is all powerful, why is there suffering in the world? Because not God is not just all powerful, he's also allloving. So try to think of the most powerful man in the world, right? But if you don't have love, then there's no balance there. So God is able to control his power because of his love.

I was just gonna ask then, how is it all loving to allow children to be raped or contract deadly diseases and suffer in that way?

Can I speak on that? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Um, actually it starts back in the beginning. So we know that God's when God speaks, his word is that that's what it is. And that's why he had to send Jesus because he already spoke something. So like every time just example every time God speaks something it will come to pass. Every time he spoke something in the Bible it would happen. Okay. So when he said I have given them dominion he talked about men and women. He gave creatures us dominion. So when he gave us dominion and so we had the freedom to go do what we wanted. Adam and Eve sinned. So God can he snap his fingers? Technically yes. But then we would be able to call God a liar because then it would have been like but I thought we had dominion. But then you snapped your fingers and just got us from that. So what I want to tell you is that it's not just about could God have just stamped his fingers. He said, you know what, they have dominion. So now I'm going to send my son so I don't go against my very own word, right? God when he speaks a word that he has to stick to it or we'll be able to call him a liar.

Well, but then that's not freedom though because if we had the choice and the freedom to go sin then and sin is what condemned us. That's not freedom. But he is because we have free will today. We can choose.

Well, but you you referenced the Garden of Eden and how Adam and Eve had the choice to go do whatever they want. Obviously not because their sin got us all condemned. That that's so can you explain that they had the choice but there was a stipulation. Yes. Exactly. There was a stip and he spoke his word to Adam actually not to Eve but he spoke it to Adam and he said don't eat of this particular tree. Okay. Then that's not freedom.

I I say this like we all have choices. So whether you have a choice you can make a choice here or there there's always going to be a consequence. That's just the law of nature. You can make a good choice or a bad choice. There's still going to be an outcome. So that's just a natural principles of the universe of the humanity in general.

And the next prompt is heaven and hell are not real places. Okay. All right. Who would like to speak? I'll start.

I want to I I thought it's interesting because you said they're not, but when we asked you about your children today, you said that they're in heaven, but now you're saying you don't agree that there is a heaven. So, can you give a backstory about why you say what the contradiction's about? Yes. Well, as she clearly stated, I have two children. Uh, heaven's side, as I like to say. Didn't know if I was going to share that, but that's okay. Um, yeah. So, heaven in the context of uh biblical context that we talk about is very black and white. It's very people go here, hell, people go here. Here's what hell's like, here's what heaven's like. Um, for people saying heaven as an expression is more how I see it. Uh, a peaceful place, a place of, you know, the other place, a place where souls go and they all rest together. Whether you're anybody or, you know, you're you and me or you're Adolf Hitler, you find peace eventually on the other side. Um, I don't believe that any being on earth, no matter the heinous amount of crimes they committed against people, against God, against themselves, ever deserves to be tortured and tormented for all of eternity because that proves that you are that proves revenge, not trying to reconcile and become different. Um, so back to the main question, heaven, like when when people say, "Oh my god," you know, we're not we're not speaking to the Abrahamic God specifically um in in using that turn of phrase just like when we talk about heaven or peace. I'm not specifically talking about um the biblical idea of heaven and hell, the stark black and white idea of it.

Got it. And then also regards to heaven or hell. Hell is simply just separation from God. Hell is when we do not experience God's presence at all. That's torture. That's

But God is omnipresent. So how could there be a place where God doesn't exist? He doesn't exist in evil. He's not evil. So he cannot dwell in evil. So that's where hell, right? How does he dwell here if if there's evil on earth?

Holy Spirit. God dwells here through his holy spirit. Jesus, he sent his helper, the Holy Spirit, to dwell here. So you don't think God is present in hell? No, I don't think so. It's like a separation from him.

Okay. Yeah, I would like to disagree with uh that just a little bit. Um in Psalms, David talks about even if I go down to shield, you are there. Um and he he is omnipresent in different in different ways in different places. Um he's here with us on earth and he's here in every single place. Um I do want to say I'm so sorry for your loss with your children. That's really hard to go through. Um and I can't imagine the pain of going through that. Um, and I do believe that they're in heaven and they have joy and they're at peace with the Lord. Um, and I I do want to say um the reason why hell exists and you had brought up about children who are abused um that enrages me as I'm sure it enrages all of us of kids who go through something like that. And um you know God hates that more than we do. In Matthew, he talks about if you hurt a child, it's better for a millstone, a giant stone to be um around your neck and you thrown into an ocean. Um he he hates abuse um more than we do and he hates injustice and that's why hell exists. Um it exists because there are heinous things in this world um unspeakable evil that must be punished and that is justice and that is good. Um, so but more often than not, his own servants get away with things like that. I mean, look at the Catholic Church.

And I would say on and and that enrages me as well. And I would I would make the argument that those people are not Christians because to live as as Christ like in first John, it talks about if you are in the light, you are not in the darkness. And so I would say if you are actively walking in this disobed disobedience and then in this evil, you don't know Christ. You don't know love. um you're pretending to be a sheep and you're actually a wolf. And so I would I would reject those people as Christians.

I don't think that Christians sometimes know that they're walking in darkness. I mean, you even look at, you know, sin, the sin of pride or somebody being prideful, somebody, you know, lying to themselves because they're not conscious of what they actually feel. Those things are all considered sin. And if we are talking about the Bible, you know, the only sin greater than all the other sins is sexual sin because you're sinning against yourself, your own flesh. Um, and so it's kind of interesting because even Christians who walk with the Lord and are are so open about their relationship could be sinning every day internally and not know it. And so it's like agreed equalizer.

Actually, we would probably say this as a Christian woman. um every day, every single day. If it's in your mind, it can be literally how you can look at someone and and judge them. But that is also your fallen nature. That that's natural in you. But what you do is you submit that to the Lord. And over time, that's why it says in Christ, we get a rebirth. We get a new birth. We get a new life in him. So he begins to breathe through us. He begins to help us on that journey. So if it once was premarital sex, that was your struggle. You might still struggle with that your first few years as a Christian, maybe your first five, you know, but over time eventually you get a distaste for those things. Just like if you once smoked a lot of cigarettes or just did a lot of things like that, eventually those things they don't they don't hit the same. And so us as Christians, we're not saying, "Oh, we're sinless." No, no, no. We're actually saying, "Hey, we are very sinful and we need Jesus Christ to come and clean that slate for us." Not just once when we got saved, but every single day.

So, is it possible for a Christian to not know that they're sinning? I think that's what she's saying. That Christians are walking around not even knowing that they're sinning every day. Is that possible? Not for a real Christian.

Okay. So, you mentioned a real Christian. What is a real Christian? What does that mean when you say that? Yeah. It ties back to your point when you brought about those in the Catholic Church who abuse abuse children. Those aren't real Christians. The Bible says that no one will inherit the kingdom of God unless they've been born again. Their hearts are still wicked and evil. So we don't call those real Christians because their heart has not been transformed. True Christians are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and their fruits bear that they are believers of Christ.

But you said that people still sin and fall like you just said premarital sex, right? Okay. So what if it wasn't premarital sex? What if it was society deemed as more heinous such as child molestation? So you're a real Christian if you struggle with premarital sex for five years, but the the priest who the children is not at all. Why?

I would say um you there's conviction. And so you know I sin every single day. Um you know the New Testament talks about it liars blasphemers won't enter the kingdom of God but such were some of you and I sin every single day. And so, but there's a conviction and like you were saying, there's a disdain for your sin and I grow to hate it more and more. Things that I wasn't aware of 5 years ago, I'm aware of now. Whereas someone who is living in the Catholic Church, for example, or a different type of sin, it doesn't have to just be that societal societ society deemed heinous sin. Um, there's no conviction. So, they keep doing that and there's no conviction. There's no remorse. And I think that's the difference even when we look in a court of law, right? There's a difference between someone who expresses remorse and someone who doesn't. So as a Christian, you are your your life doesn't look perfect, but it increasingly becomes more like Christ over time.

So is it possible that a person thinks that they are a Christian because maybe they've read a prayer or said something, but in actuality they're not. And maybe if Jesus was there and they asked Jesus, Jesus would say, "Actually, you're not." Is that possible that a person can think they're a Christian and actually not be? I would say yes because Matthew 7:21 says, "Many will come to me and say, Lord, I did these things in your name." He'll say, "Depart from me, evil worker of iniquity. I never knew you." And so, absolutely, I think that it is possible.

How would a person know that they are a real Christian? Um, I believe that someone who is a believer of Christ has the seal of the Holy Spirit. Um, someone asked, I forgot who asked like, "How does a Christian always know if they're sinning?" And by the way, a Christian being a Christian doesn't mean I'm righteous. Doesn't mean I'm perfect. I am the righteousness of God in Christ. It's only because of Jesus. When God sees me, he sees Jesus. I'm not perfect on my own. Like we said, we all sin. Um, but I would say that when you have the Holy Spirit, like I may sin and do something that I didn't even like know offended God, but the Holy Spirit will convict me and I'll be like, "Okay, that wasn't right. Okay, let me repent for that."

And I think you said like, "Why do Christians get away with things?" like why do they get away with sin? I wanted to touch on that um question. No one is going to get away with anything. God sees everything, even the things that are done in the dark. And speaking about the topic of heaven, there is a great white throne judgment talked about in the Bible. And there is a day where literally we will all face God face to face and the books will be open and he's not just going to judge our actions, but the intent of our hearts like even the deepest depths of things. So there may be people who look like they're doing all the best works, like casting out demons and doing all these things, but God sees the heart. So no one is getting away with anything. And God is a righteous judge. So he and this brings me to another question I wanted to ask you guys. What do you think? What is your standard of like what is evil and what is good? Because if there wasn't any god, then how do you guys have a standard of what is evil and good? Like what do you base that off of? So I want to hear from if you can answer that question and also answer this question as well. How does your view on the afterlife or lack of one affect the way that you live now? What do you think happens when you die?

So uh what do I think happens when we die? We we go back. We're Adams. We go back into the earth. We get cremated. And I don't believe it needs to be anything beyond that. And I think that the fact that there are thousands of religions, even Christianity, there's there's hundreds of denominations on it, it means that we can't all agree on every single thing. um when I deconstructed from my beliefs and I had to become a secular parent and our family pet died, um my I had no context and no knowledge as to how to parent somebody in that situation without the conceptions of an afterlife and without the conceptions of God. So in that point I had to do a lot of growth on my own because at that point I could either misrepresent or I could um put a band-aid on it to kind of make it go away really quick and be like don't worry about it. Bird snack is going to be in heaven and he's going to be waiting for you. So like you're you're going to be happy once you see your baby bird snack again. However, um I I think that that ties in into a very primal, very human need for connection with our ancestors and the loved ones that we have and we have lost along the way. Um so I had to be really I had to be real with him. You know, when you are born into this world that comes with a death sentence. It might be today. It might be tomorrow. It might be hopefully after a really long and really happy life. Um, and Bird Snack just got there before you do. And I'm going to go there, too. But you know what? First, we're going to be really happy. We're go we're going to do a lot of good, as much good as we can do. And eventually, we will we will get there, too.

So, So, you have a child, right? I do. I do. I have a 10-year-old. So with your child, how do you explain to Is it a girl or boy? Boy, boy. How do you explain to him what the purpose of this life is? If he's going to just do good and then for what? If they're going to just go back into the earth, how do you how do you explain that to him? I explain that to him. I haven't really had a chance to talk with him about that and it'll it'll come.

Yeah, I don't have a kid. But um I think to your question of how do you explain like why do good if there's no like reward or something in heaven is is the context that I'm picking up is um to better humanity, better the earth while we're here because we only have one chance at doing that. So rather than you know wreaking havoc and living selfishly and you know I agree making others miserable. We all have to acknowledge in this room that life is a gift and you know that that in it in of itself should be our sense of morality that we should cherish the fact that we get to breathe and see nature and live on this planet.

And the next prompt is atheism requires just as much faith as religion. Three, two, one.

Okay. I mean, atheism and it is is kind of an exploratory phase, I think, and it doesn't have to be, but because of that, it means it doesn't require faith. It doesn't require any sort of adherence to sort like any sort of dogma or or um scripture. It's it's what you make of it. And and in like in a way, it's kind of like finding your own path. So, was it a belief system or a lack of a belief system? I think it's a lack of I think it's if if anything, it's a belief system that's made of play-doh. It's what you want it to be and it can change however you want it to be. And it's hard to say if that's considered a belief system if it changes all the time.

Have you always been an atheist or did that change? No, I think I've always been kind of like I would say I've always been curious. I've I've, you know, grown up indoctrin indoctrinated into certain things or attempted to and have always just kind of like I guess had like a very like curious or whimsical approach to like what life should be. And oddly enough, I feel like it finds like I find myself on a path of like trying to discover what is morally good more than than I find that a lot of Christians or Catholic or fundamental religious people do. Um, yeah.

Can I say something? I actually kind of believe that atheism does require faith. Um because at one time I don't say I was an atheist but I just felt like I didn't need God. I was pretty good. Um I grew up pretty we I'm ch I'm Native American so I kind of just grew up not really looking for that type of Christian you know deity and that makes if that makes sense. I felt really good. And then when I came into knowing faith I realized it required a lot less because once I got the Holy Spirit once I started to experience my own personal walk with God I I had many more experiences. I had a Bible. I had a book. I had community. I had a lot more pieces to the puzzle versus when I kind of was um and I kind of was very whimsical with it, too. Like I just believe whatever, you know. Um that kind of some days would get thrown with the wind based off of a life situation. I didn't really have a foundation. And I think that's what Christianity brought me that when life threw these waves, I had the foundation to go to God and be like, "This is my anchor." But when I was a little more, I don't really need a faith. I don't really need a God. um that kind of lifestyle that really brought me to a whole lot of new teachings and a whole lot of I was always wanting to listen to new gurus and just kind of going with the wind. And so I will say I think um being an atheist requires a lot more faith because whatever new teaching is out or whatever new little uh thing comes around, it kind of feels like you will get you will go with those type of things based off of the season you're in in life as well.

I do agree with some some aspect of that where like if you don't have something tying you down, you do feel like you're floating sometimes. But I also found that that what kept me grounded was science. I I mean science is just something that has always I mean it should it should ground all of us. It's literally gravity. I mean and and the way that we're composed I think that's what I found is as something that that

So I want to ask you a question then someone can speak on the science because I think you all have something to say about that. What ethical frameworks guide your decisions? So science, okay, on maybe the stuff that you need proven, but what about the ethical part? What guides your framework?

Well, I mean again science even even um advocates for ethics like good ethics as well because I mean we as a species did not reach the great intelligence and heights that we have reached without some sort of camaraderie and moral good and and helping each other and and this like progressive nature of of of nurturing one another. I mean this the I don't think there's any species where you know there is not some sort of level of nurture in some place whether it's you know an insect laying eggs and making sure that it wraps a cocoon around them to protect them or an elephant herd protecting a new baby as it's being born. It's it's in our DNA to be morally good to one another, to protect our species, and to continue growing.

I I'll say I believe that God is the creator of science. So, I believe in science, but I believe that science is comes from God. He is the creator of our DNA. Um, but going back to the prompt, I believe it takes a lot of faith to be atheist because there's so much historical evidence, even people who aren't Christian, so much historical evidence that proves Christianity, that proves um, Jesus. But even just simply looking outside at the birds and the trees that ties back into science, like I feel like to be atheist, you kind of have to walk around and close your eyes and kind of ignore all the evidence out there around you. And I feel like it takes faith to kind of be walking with your eyes closed. You got to believe that you're not going to fall. Kind of like a floating thing. So having that foundation is so important cuz you have something to stand on. You're illuminated. Your eyes are open. You have a path. You see where you're going. Um so I feel like yeah, walking around in darkness with your eyes closed, it takes a lot of faith to do that and not know.

I I want to Can I just say something? I just feel like science reveals the creativity and the intelligence of God. science just reveals how genius and brilliant God is. And I would just say I disagree that you need as much faith to be an atheist. I think you need even more faith to be an atheist because the Bible says that since the beginning of the world, his invisible attributes have been clearly seen through nature. We can look at the sky. Oh my gosh, who made that? The heavens declare the glory of God. The skies declare his craftsmanship. There's an art. Let me finish please. Thank you. Um, I'm just saying like everything reveals God's goodness and his character and his his creativity. So, I think you need even more faith because you can't look at the sun and be like, "Yeah, nothing created that." We're in a building and we're like, "We know there's an architect who built this." But we we can't look at the sky and be like, "Nah, no one made that. That makes no sense."

I 100% disagree with that. Okay. That's fine. Okay. So, how many of you used to be Christians or had any other religious background, but Christians specifically? Three. Okay. Okay. So, why don't you share?

Sure. Um yeah, I was raised in the evangelical church and um I also came out curious. So I found myself questioning things from the very beginning. And then what really pushed me out of the church was when I was 12, my dad came out as gay. And um everyone turned their backs on him. all of his friends and family, everyone who claimed to love him unconditionally as Christians are supposedly called to do, um they completely forgot he existed. We didn't talk about him. He wasn't to be in the same room or mentioned and I love my dad and yeah, so that that pushed me away from religion altogether, watching how how he was treated.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Hen? Um yeah, I was raised non-denominational evangelical Christianity within those spheres. I was a part of Francis Chan's mega church growing up in cornerstone of Seami Valley. Um what started my deconstruction journey was the murder of George Floyd and truly watching how the church was just a puppet of American politics and people couldn't even speak on it until they figured out what political commentator they followed had an opinion on it. They could not even have empathy for the murder, the brutal murder of a man that we all witnessed because it didn't align with their political affiliation. And once the church kind of fell out of my uh hindsight of what I thought was trustworthy, you know, everything about the Bible, my religious indoctrination, what actually was true about biblical theology and catapulted me to get an emphasis in biblical theology in college really just unraveled from there.

So, so it started with people. And what about you? I grew up Catholic and um I was really Catholic for a really long time. Then um there were some things that the Catholic Church could not stop doing such as children, such as you know I grew up in Mexico too. So uh such as like you know being puppets for the cartel such as um a myriad of things. And then I was just like well I still love the architecture of these beautiful churches. I still believe in God. And so I was just like hanging out there for a while. Eventually I met the father of my child and he was a Christian and he came to me and and and brought to me several that he considered to be logical fallacies, right? Because he wanted me to convert to his religion and I did for a period of time. But whereas he was able to stop asking questions that led him to Christianity, uh I could not stop asking questions and all of the answers that were given to me were unsatisfactory because they just came from the same book. Um, and uh, and that book had as I grew up and as I matured and as as I learned about um, the languages that we don't speak anymore and translations and um, colonization and war and patriarchy and uh, recently anthropology. The more that I learn, the more I realized that somebody had a lot of power to gain from my belief and um, and everybody around us. So where I landed is like I don't want to participate in any of this.

So when you said the book, what book are you talking about? I'm talking about the Bible. I'm talking about the Bible specifically. the the first part that kind of like kick started it off is realizing that there are non-cononical versions of the same Bible and there was a group of people that were very interested in keeping some parts in and some parts out of the Bible learning that they were all not um during that period of time people couldn't uh not everybody had the same literacy level. So these letters um they weren't off the bat they were written 60 and then compiled later and in my personal experience of documenting if I do not document something immediately I will forget do not ask me what I had for breakfast yesterday because I do not remember. Right? So in the knowledge of human behavior and um for me wanting to put all of my trust in the Holy Bible as the soul as the sole um ethical framework I is not something that I could do.

So it sounds like the three of you have never had what Christians would consider an encounter with the living God regardless of the Bible, regardless of people. you don't have you ever had an actual encounter that you believe was with the living God?

I have something to say about that. Um, so when I was a kid, I was very conscious of the world that was around me in Christian culture and I wanted to fit into that. So I pretended that I did. My mom would take me to um the Pentecostal churches and you know I would fall over crying and screaming and whatever and it was never real. It was just trying to fit in.

Thank you for sharing that. So ladies, after hearing from these ladies here, how do you think that someone can heal from religious trauma without abandoning their faith entirely? So you heard their stories.

So in connection with what they shared because you know it hurts. I would like to share if I can. Um recently I went through something with the church that I gave a lot of myself and my time to. I went through a really hard experience. Um, and through that I was faced with two options. Do I deconstruct or do I lean deeper into my faith? And for me that was relearning the character of God and realizing that he is not people. That people fail, people suck, people do really harmful things. And I'm so sorry for your experience with your father and that they treated him that way. Um, that's not Christ. Christ sat with the women at the well. And um and so relearning who Christ is and that he's a good father that he loves that he works all things together for the good of those who love him and that even in this painful experience that I experienced, God still loves me and he's going to work it out for good. Um and so I would say that you know for example when I we hear the word church hurt a lot. Um when people hurt us, human beings hurt us, we don't say all of humanity hurt us. We say this person a hurt me. And I would say that about a church experience as well. This person uh was unkind to me or did this hurtful thing, but it's not the the whole church. It's not Christ. And so, um I would just I'm sorry for your guys's um experiences, um be it in the Catholic church or in Protestant churches. Um it breaks my heart that you experience that and I that's not Jesus. And so I'm sorry you went through that.

And I wanted to piggy back off of that. Um I'm sorry for what you guys have walked through. I have also walked through churchthood and had to go through a whole healing journey. But I think what kept me grounded instead of moving into deconstruction is because I had an encounter with Jesus, the person of Jesus. So even though people in the church or the church organization hurt me and I had negative experiences, my relationship with Jesus helped me to walk through a healing process where in that I was able to even see myself that I'm not perfect, but be able to forgive them because I receiving his forgiveness from me um being as an imperfect human. So I feel like when you have an encounter with the Lord and a relationship with him and you know him, people can spit on you, they can do whatever and it'll hurt, but

I know that what you do does not reflect on his character. So having an encounter and knowing the character of God, I will quickly say that I do believe it was the encounter as well. I think that um I didn't come from a church like that. I got saved in my college dorm room by myself and so it was that one encounter. Many days I did not like church. I actually wanted to leave church and I did. But I never wanted to leave Jesus because he was something completely different from the church. And even today, years later, it's I've wanted to leave the church, wanted to leave ministry, but I've never wanted to leave Jesus. That's very different. Thank you.

And the next prompt is Christianity is oppressive to women. Three, two, one. It's oppressive. Okay. So you still say yes. Okay. I agree. Okay. So the reason I agree is because of some scriptures. Honestly, it says like women are not supposed to have authority over men. Women are not supposed to be pastors. I mean there are some clear scriptures there in the Bible. But even if you're just re most of us are going to just read it for face value and not dig deeper in the context and all that. So if you're just looking at it face value, you can quickly see that this is oppressive. Um and so I do kind of agree because of a woman in ministry. I have experienced that kind of part of it even as a Christian woman. Um, but then I've also see like Jesus with the woman at the well and how actually Jesus is kind of a feminist, you know, like he is super empowering. And so I do see that I see there's certain scriptures that are very oppressive to women. But then also I see when Jesus came and when his when his love covered all, it actually opens up the door to women like, "Hey, come let me talk to you. I don't care what you've been through." So I always seen Jesus as kind of a feminist like he accepted me in all my baggage and even if sometimes the church didn't or different places didn't Jesus did. Thank you.

Any of you can share. Uh I I would like to add that like it it is oppressive towards women because it was I mean this the Bible might be the book of God but it was written by man and you have so much interpretations that happened. I mean, the Bible wasn't even written in English and like the first draft wasn't in English. And so, there's so much gendered language and and um like opinion put into these the scripture that that obviously there's going to be opinion and sway and propaganda in the Bible that is I mean it very well could be ancient propaganda, but some of it's very recent like the King Charles version is is essentially the like a kind of like a um is it King Charles? King James. King James. Yeah. Sorry. You're fine. You're I saw your face and I was like, I got that one wrong. Um um you know the King James version which he wrote specifically to kind of push some patriarchal values. So I think you know if if we want to you know really honor like if you want to honor your word of God of your God it you want to also acknowledge where man has put their own voice in it to perpetuate some ideology.

I'll piggy back on that. Um so what you said is the Bible is written by man written by man inspired by God. It's all God breathed. It's no human thumbrint on it at all. Um, I don't I don't believe that the Bible is oppressive as a woman. I know it says, "Oh, women can't teach men and all these things." I've seen why God says it. I've tried to allow men in my ministry and now they trying to sneak up and try to hit on me. Like, there's no reason for a a woman to be to be teaching a man the word. It gets sexual very, very quickly. I also see why women should not lead men. Why? Because there's a divine order. God, Jesus, man, woman. We should we shouldn't we should desire to be led by a man. I don't want to be running the show. I already make enough decisions on my own. So, I just realized that that's just a god- orained decision and it works and I don't see how not following God is going to lead to to to something good.

Can I piggyback off that? Yeah. Yes. Um I think that you saying that like you not being able to teach a man because it's going to get sexualized is a man's problem. It's not your problem. Also, I think the Bible oppresses men and women equally. Um, but I do think church culture oppresses women specifically only. And you can even see with something as simple as how many Christian families name their son David. David was a rapist. He was an adulterer. He has this character arc and this forgiveness, but Eve doesn't really. Neither does Delilah. Women in the Bible aren't exalted um as their redemption arcs in society and Christian culture the way that men are. You know, you can overlook a rapist. You can overlook these terrible things, an adulterer, a liar. Um but you don't overlook those same things as women. You like to, you know, Christian culture likes to name their women after quiet characters in the Bible. Women that don't have redemption stories. Women that didn't ask for forgiveness or never really needed it.

Have you heard of Mary Magdalene, the woman that had seven demons cast out of her and Jesus used her to spread the gospel message first? Have you heard about her? Have you heard about the woman with the um caught in adultery where she had sex outside of marriage? What's her name? Woman at the well. She didn't have woman at the well, too, but there's also a woman caught caught in the act of adultery. She didn't have a name, but she was redeemmed. She was redeemed. Jesus said, "I don't redeemed." What I'm saying is socially and society is that they're still looked at as otherred. And these women that aren't worthy of their names. Rahhat was a prostitute. She was the lineage of Jes. How many of your daughters are named I would say that Christian girls are named Mary though after but Mary is Jesus's mother not Mary Mag so many great examples of women in the Bible. Yeah. Esther was a queen and powerful.

I have a question for you ladies on this side. Are there aspects of Christianity that you believe empower women? Oh yeah. you want to be. So I think it's just a in my opinion I think it's a great just misunderstanding and misinterpretation of scripture when it comes to submission. I think people think submission means a man is on top like you know but I see the beauty in submission. It's for God's protection. It's for car like covering like he sees us as his daughters. So he cherishes us in that. So I don't see submission as a way to tear down women but just as a way to cover and protect women. Um but as a way to empower women in scripture. I think it's empowering to it talks about um teaching the Titus to women teaching the younger women. It talks about mentorship even just the beauty of homemaking. Not obviously that's not for every woman but I think because of society we think these things are not important like taking care of our home raising up children raising up a family I feel like that is empowering but because of culture or society it makes it look like oh that's not good enough um working is better but I think that those things are beautiful

hang on I'm sorry we have to separate the idea of like we do live in a capitalist society Right? And when men were creating these capitalist society, they were saying that labor is exclusively what happens outside of the home. Right? As feminists, we want you to have the choice. We want you to have the choice whether you're at home taking care of your kids because it is valuable labor and it has always been labor and it will always continue to be labor whether or not we live in a capitalist society that acknowledges that or not. So, just to kind of put that out of the way, I agree with that. I'm just saying it is still powerful whether you're at home or you're you're at work. If you're being led by God in whatever arena, it's still powerful. But I think people think because the Bible promotes certain um values that it's demeaning to a woman and it's not. I would say this, Jesus empowers women all through that New Testament. If you look at Jesus's life, that's all he does. from the daughter that touched his hymn of this garment and he went and spoke to from the woman at the well where she he's like where's your seven husbands or something like that and she's afraid she's like oh man I'm really and he's like no hey hey and she actually runs back and becomes an evangelist and becomes a leader off of that one encounter and so I will say all through the New Testament Jesus is like going to his daughters like he's pouring into them he he is truly being God and so I will say the impact that he has on on women and empowering them Maybe if you look at some things you're like, "Oh, that scripture is I don't agree with that." But when you get into the context of that scripture, you can kind of understand the time and place that they were talking about. Um, but for the most part, I will say as a empowerment, women's empowerment speaker, I have been so empowered through the scriptures. Um, especially the New Testament and through Jesus's life and how he has helped his daughters. Um, what are their names? These women who've been so empowered by Jesus. uh the woman with the issue of blood, the woman at the well, they don't have names. But also too in our Christianity, we look at the name that we want to highlight is Jesus. We're not worried about but we remember the men's names. Those are written down. I would say there's there's women like Esther, there's Deborah, Priscilla. Paul even writes and commends um Priscilla and commends these women who are teaching in the church. And even a lot of scholars, um, Proverbs 31 is the proverb that a lot of women aspire to be this godly woman. And Proverbs 31 says that she considers a field and buys it. She's not just doing homemaking things, even though that can be empowering for some women. Um, I I don't do that right now. That's not my life phase. Um, but also she's a businesswoman and she makes purchases and she works and she does good things. And a lot of scholars actually believe because it says words of Lamwell, uh, that that was actually Solomon. So that a lot of scholars believe that that was actually Ba'ath Sheeba and him talking about Ba'ath Sheba his mother. And so that is a redemptive story of the woman that we all aspire to be. This godly Proverbs 31 woman was actually a woman who had an affair with King David um and God redeemed her. And so I think that that's so

ladies um do you believe all religions have some form of oppression or is it just Christianity uniquely that's problematic in this way? any just one of you whoever I would love to speak on this one. Um I I do feel like all religions have some form of oppression. Um we were just talking about it earlier but um fundamentalism is is not particular to one religion. Extremism is not particular to one religion and and there are so many of the nuance problems that happen with it. Um, you know, I work a lot with activism, particularly in theocratic nations that are not partic like not Christian. Um, and and there there's so many of the the same issues of uh oppression, apartheid, gender apartheid that's happening um because there is no freedom to believe what people want to believe. Um so yes, religion absolutely um you know there there's problematic behavior in all religion. Yeah I think I think that religion is about restricting choice. So in that way they are all oppressive. Um but in this country Christianity is the main factor. Thank you.

And the next prompt is religion should stay out of politics. Three, two, one. Sideways. Okay. Who would like to answer? Doesn't matter. Um, so I would say that uh politics should stay out of the church in the sense that we should not be in we shouldn't get a political view and try to put it on the Bible. We should allow the Bible to speak into whatever political issue is happening. Just like anyone, if someone is, you know, an atheist, they have a system of beliefs. I understand that it's not the same as Christianity. I understand it's not the same as other religions, but it's still a system of beliefs of what you believe is morally right and morally wrong. No one is completely amoral. And so I I don't believe in a theocracy. I denounce any concept of a theocracy completely. Um but I will say that we all believe what is good and what is evil and I'm just going to vote according to what I believe is good and evil. And I believe that God defines what is good and what is evil.

I think the difference is is when you say when I say I so strongly believe that religion needs to stay out of politics is my belief system allows you to do what you want and to live the peace of your life. You putting your religion into my belief system belief system restricts what I can do with my life based on what you believe. I don't like I don't believe I'm pro-choice. You're pro-life. That's great. You should be pro-life for you and for what you believe. I don't believe in ma mandating vaccines. I don't think the government should tell you what to do with your body. So, I'm on your side. You can get them or you can't. The second that you start voting based on your religious beliefs, you're restricting me based on what your morality is with gay marriage, etc., etc. That is inherently not okay because you're adding God to a belief system, a government that's evil, that you think is evil. It's created by man, so it must be inherently evil. And you're trying to have God meddle and rule in it. And I think inherently that's just going to get really messy.

I have a question for you. Um, so when you say you're pro-choice or like you're pro or anti these issues, um, what exactly where are you deriving how that's good or how that's bad? Um, I know for me, if I'm pro-life, I back it up with science. So how do you decide what is good and what is bad and why is it okay for you to impress your kind of beliefs on me if I disagree with you? Well, I have a horizontal morality whereas I would describe Christians have a vertical morality. So what you think is right or wrong is how it affects God and what God deems it sin or not. And I think what is right or wrong is how it affects other people around me. Um which is why I totally believe that being gay is okay and most Christians don't. Um, when it comes to the ethics of abortion, I don't think we need to get into all those details because the debate is not about that. What the original question was putting religion into it. And if you feel spiritually within your bones that getting an abortion is not okay, I am on your side and you are totally allowed to do that with your body. As somebody who has had two miscarriages and personally has the privilege to not ever have to get a an elected abortion, um I am still pro-choice because I am pro life for argument sake for my own body and that the argument really comes down to your own body and your own choices because debating on life at conception and all of that is just not I don't think it's and that's why it was a little sideways because I do understand if all our views are just put into politics, then that's kind of not America. America is a melting pot. You're allowed to have your views and your beliefs. And so I do, that's why I said I was a little sideways because I am a Christian and I do want our views, but I also have to be realistic and we have to be understanding of our our world. We're a melting pot. We have people from Uganda and we have people from all over the world that have different views and different of, you know, uh, faith and different perspectives on their religion. And so I do believe it should be separated because we don't want to marginalize people because they are an atheist or we don't want to marginalize people because they have different views. And we do believe God is very just. And so if you're going to be in this um if you're going to be in America, I do believe that there should be a little separation there um so that everyone can experience um a good life and justice here.

I I think it's levels to it. I voted that I think um there should be a separation, but you said something. You said you shouldn't like let your beliefs influence your vote. But I think voting is your vote. It's whatever you want to vote. I am going to vote my beliefs and my convictions and I'm not going to feel, you know, bad about it. But once there's laws set, I'm going to respect the laws of the land. You get what I'm saying? Like give Caesars what Caesars, give God what's God. So I understand that separation, but with my personal convictions, I think that that's a level that we have the right to vote and that's something that we should appreciate. So we shouldn't say what someone should vote based off of cuz whether you're Christian or not, you have a belief system like she said and you're going to vote based off of that. But once the laws are there, what can I do about it? Like I'm going to respect it, but I will take advantage of my vote to do what I'm convicted to do is the right thing.

Yeah. I think everyone is entitled to their own beliefs obviously. Like you're going to believe what you believe. it's going to influence how you participate in civic society and things like that. Where I have a problem is a lot of Christians don't agree with you guys on keeping religion out of politics. And my entire family is Christian and they all don't believe in the separation of church and state. And I think that's troubling. I think the US doesn't even really believe in separation of church and state. We look at the dollar. It says in God we trust. We pledge allegiance to the flag. One nation. Let me talk babe. Thank you. One nation under God. So we can't say oh separation of church and state. The whole United States has been built on the sovereignty of God. And I think that um it has you can shake look at your dollar bills if you have one. You can look. It's there. But I just want to say like the only way to truly be have a fair um morality is to go to the one that's good. So the Bible says that when the wicked rule, people mourn, but when the righteous rule, people rejoice. We want more leadership in the hands of the righteous. So that's why I think that God should be involved in government because he is the best judge. Um, but I think we got into government because we simply just left God. God wanted to be our original.

I don't believe in God or the Bible. Babe, thank you. It's It's yours. Go ahead. I'm done. Sorry. I I don't believe in God or the Bible. So, why should that have any ruling over my life? And and also to to rule like you you said to rule in the land like with righteousness and just how how can you say that when when so many people are persecuted by this rule under religious doctrine? I mean, I my own father fled religious persecution and I've had family members killed for their religious beliefs. What kind of religion is it though? Was it Christian beliefs? Because I don't think I don't I don't think it matters because I think all religions talking about Christians, not Muslims or anything. We're talking about Christians. So, but the thing is that the point is that you put enough doctrine into any sort of political system, there suddenly becomes a law that makes it okay to kill people for not believing in said religion. that goes against the multiple times throughout history. That's like another religion, but our religion following Jesus, we don't kill people. That's but it's the path to my dad was persecuted by Christianity. Well, that's unjust according to the Bible.

So, so Yahana, question for you. Is it possible to fully separate the church from the state in America? Do you believe that? Um, I think it's possible, but I think the only way to truly understand and live in morality is through Jesus. Like we look at Hitler obviously it was wrong that he killed all those Jews but according to that government wicked people ruled. So that's what happened. So I just believe that God wants more leadership in the hands of the righteous. So it's possible but I think following God is the best way. Will you recognize though when the wicked are the Christians? Would you be able to recognize there are some wicked people but they are not true Christians as we mentioned earlier.

I want to hear from you specifically. What I would like to say is that if Christians didn't kill people, there would be no need for churches inside of prisons. And at this, excuse me, at this point, uh, they are the majority inside of the prisons. Whether we like to admit it or not, people who are Christians kill. They do every single kind of thing. And my po what I really wanted to talk to you about is that there is religious propaganda. And you did eat it all up because in the 50s when we were coming out of the Second World War and at this point in time there was a lot of uh oh the commies are bad and they're atheists so we're going to lean in and we're going to double down on we're Christians. That's when we added in God we trust to our dollars and we existed for a long time without those things existing. And for a a brief moment, I want to dis like discard all the hypotheticals and I would like to talk about uh Adriana Smith. She is a woman who is brain dead in the state of Georgia and because of um these prolife heartbeat bills, her body is being used to have a pregnancy to term without her consent, without her knowledge, without her having anything to do with it. The machines are hooking her up and they're breathing for her because she is pregnant. So at this point, it's not about like what can you do or or is it bad or is it not? It's that these laws coming into place, they have no say as to the individual families and the costs that they will have to pay for some lawmakers who don't even know you, don't even know who you are. They don't know if you have uh the money or the job or the work to feed your family. And yet they feel like they have this moral authority over you to tell you that you need to be pro-life.

Yeah. I just have one wrapped up thought. I agree that um there should be a separation, but I think it should be fair. So the same way that you guys should feel like a Christian value shouldn't be forced into politics. I don't think any other value should be forced or any other agenda as well on any other side should be forced. and we see that happening on different sides as well. So, I think it should be fair, especially when it comes to schools.

So, I wanted to say thank you for sharing all of your stories because you shared some very personal things about your lives and it's important to hear your voice. I know where the Christians stand in terms of having a solid foundation for things in their life. But for you ladies, when you are going through something really horrible like losing a child or what happened with your dad or just things that just rock you as a person, what is your anchor? Who do you turn to? How do you how do you deal with those things since you don't have someone that you're acknowledging as a savior? Community. Community. Yeah. Myself. Yeah. Yourself and yourself, too. Yeah. yourself. I lost my mom a couple years ago and um it was my family. It was, you know, just me moving through my trauma. So, you work you work it out within yourself. So, okay. And one of you said community. Yeah, community is and um will continue to be a driver. It's uh one of those things where I recently was going through a really hard time and I was I was at a conference and I found a friendly face and I was like, "Hey, this is what's going on." I got a big mom hug, which I totally love. And we're able to do that. We're able to connect with each other. As I told the the ladies backstage before, we have so much more in common that than we ever will have as difference amongst us. And it's very important for us to seek those out. There's recovering from religion. If you have really intense traumas that come from your religion, there is always somebody who is willing to understand and to help out. And um the other thing that I really like to do is I like to whatever's on my mind, I like to do one thing about it. What can I do? Can it be a donation for somebody who might be experiencing this? Can I share a video? Whatever it is, it has to be okay.

But what if a person doesn't have the strength to do that? Whatever it was was just so traumatic. What at that point you're relying on yourself, but what if you are not enough? Well, I think that there are ways like I feel like a lot of Christians find help in the church with their community. There are communities that are secular as well that we can lean on when we need help. Therapy. Yeah. We have extremely robust therapy programs in this country. Um, and I think that regardless of what your faith is, therapy is always something there to help us get through times of trouble and we should rely on it as much as we can. What I love about God and what I think is so beautiful is that he created community, he created family. So even though you guys may not believe in him or acknowledge him, a lot of the constructs that we benefit from, it still all comes from the same God. So thank you ladies for being here and sharing with each other today. It's really important to have this conversation.

Want to hear from you and know, did anything that you heard today or spoke about today impact you in a way that maybe had you thinking in a different way than you thought before? Is there something that someone said on the opposing side that you hadn't considered or that moved you in any way? I would love to hear from you. Yes, actually um how they said they got through it with community because I think that's what we do too. And so to hear that aspect and then to hear about how you kind of all lean into each other too to get that assistance and you're not kind of out there by yourself, you know, that was a good eye opening because I think maybe I thought like, oh, an atheist like they don't have that. They don't have community. They don't have, you know, maybe the foundation that I view as my foundation in Jesus Christ. But it's also beautiful in a way that even in this situation, God still gives you to me God. But you know, you still get the community and you get the um environment that still will help you when you're falling. So it's human nature to gather together. Yes. What I love about what you said, Francis, you said there's more that links us together than that separates us. And I think that's so true and that's important. And I feel like though we're sitting on opposing sides, there's a lot of things that you guys said that I'm like, "No, that actually proves like we we're in agreement more than we know even though we're sitting on different sides." And I believe that um the things that you guys are against, you know, suffering and um children being hurt, those are the same things we are against as well. And I feel like those are the same things that um angers God and that um he's going to bring justice to. Yeah. Um, I did notice a pattern of a lot of y'all have been hurt and had some trauma. So, I just want to again apologize on behalf of uh the body of Christ for um people misrepresenting Christ. And I would just say just don't allow bad people to separate you from a good God. Yeah, I would say um what you guys are talking about suffering and injustice um I think we all resonate of hating that as well. And um the thing that gives me hope is to know that in in heaven that there will be no more suffering and that he holds all of our tears in a bottle. But um but likewise, I'm sorry for the pain that you guys have gone through. It breaks my heart as well. But also, y'all look really good. And so I'm glad to say that even through the things you went through and the things you had to, you know, change, um I think you you look really well. Yeah. Atheists are just like you. Yes. Exactly. I really respect the fact that you came to Christianity as a young adult and you weren't raised in it. I think that just inherently brings me a lot more respect for you as an individual. Thank you. I would also just say that despite our religious affiliations, you know, you all are very morally good people. Everyone in this room are very like I can tell you're just very good people and want to do good things despite what you know our religious beliefs are and what all of our beliefs are. And I think that has to be one of our most uniting factors is that we want what's best for each other. Yeah. I think the main thing that I've gleaned from this conversation is that um the more the main difference between this side and this side is that um we just don't believe that morality comes from up there. We believe that it's amongst us already that we created. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to commend some of y'all on your uh sense of empathy that you have for others. Uh I think that is a a part that is largely missing in a lot of the popular Christian movements. So I really applaud you for that. I applaud you for being strong, fierceless women and I want you to keep being that way forever. Thank you. Well, I thank you ladies so much for being here and sharing. And I thank you at home for watching. Leave a comment. Let us know what your thoughts are on the things that we discussed today. Until next time, bye-bye. Thank you so much. Very good.