Transcription
"Foreign, let's go out to James in Houston. What's up, James? How we doing?"
"Hey, I'm, I'm doing good. Uh, super excited to be on the show."
"I'm excited to have you, man. What's up? How are you?"
"Uh, well, I just wanted to say first, I'm super honored to be able to talk with such an intelligent and compassionate guy as you."
"I'm, I'm pumped. So everybody in the booth, compassionate, they'll go with uh, intelligent. They're having a hard time computing and computing that, but we'll take. I'll take it. I'll take it."
"Um, well, I, uh, I'll try not to press us to death with my question, but uh..."
"No, preface me to death. What else we got going on? Let's do it."
"So, uh, I have it written down so I don't go off too far. Um, but it's, it's a, it's a long preface with a little question. So I'm just gonna read what I got here. It's a lot. It's, it's a lot."
"Uh, so, uh, Michael, uh, it says, 'My wife left me and ran for safety in January of '22 because of my abusive behavior. Uh, I've done well since she left.'"
"Let me pause you. I'm gonna interrupt you as you read this. Okay. Uh, what's your abusive behavior?"
"Uh, I was physical, and I was emotional and verbal. And, um, I was also unaware, but I was financially abusive as well."
"So you were the worst? Like, yeah, okay. 100%. I was the worst. Yeah. Every, uh, in every way possible. Absolutely."
"And, um, for what it's worth, I'm proud to be for recognizing that fact. Many, many men are terrible spouses like you were, and they never come to that realization. So good for you."
"Let me ask you this."
"Oh, yeah. I'm sure there is."
"When you say you were physical, were you threatening? Did you actually punch her? Did you push her around? Paint me a picture of what physical meant."
"Yeah, so, uh, I apologize. I get emotional."
"No, it's okay."
"Um, so, uh, it escalated over time, but, um, I, uh, it started with verbal abuse, and, um, it translated from there into, uh, punching walls, uh, throwing things, a lot of, uh, escalation over time, ways that I didn't behave that I hadn't recognized since, uh, late childhood. And, um, so, yeah, it escalated to, uh, shoving her onto the couch one day, and then shoving her to the floor the next. And then, uh, I would like squeeze her. I would put pressure on her legs because I didn't want to hit her, and, um, it would leave bruises. And then, um, one day, probably not one, probably it was about four years into our marriage, um, it reached a pinnacle, and I, uh, I, I slapped her in the face, and I spit in her face, and I shoved her to the ground, and just pressed my arm into her leg really hard. And, um, thankfully, that was the night that she left and ran for safety."
"What, what happened in that moment that that you responded in that way? What had built up to that moment?"
"It was a, a lot of build-up. Uh, golly. Um, I, uh, was wanting her to come pick me up from a walk, and she couldn't find me. And so, uh, I got mad because she couldn't, she eventually found me. But I just wanted to walk. And mind you, I was in a deep, deep, I had in the last six months prior, I'd spent our entire savings on my marijuana addiction to try and run away. We moved, uh, back to my childhood town, and we were trying to adopt nine children. And, um, it fell through, and we were, our marriage in the process fell through, and I was around all of my childhood triggers. And, um, every day I was just running away more and more. And that day, I was trying to, ah, just get outside of myself and in any way possible. And, um, got home after the, uh, angry walk home when she couldn't find me. And, um, yeah, it just blew up, and didn't know how to control myself in that moment."
"And, uh, yeah, so I have to be honest with you, um, guy to guy, husband to husband, me being the dad of a six-year-old little girl, there are some things I want to say that wouldn't help the situation, but it would make me feel better. I'm sorry. I need you to know. And on behalf of everybody listening, I'm not going to say that stuff. It's not going to be helpful to this conversation because, you know, right?"
"I know, and many people have told me. My mentor told me, and, uh, yeah, I've had lots of people tell me what you, I imagine you would want to tell me."
"It's my wife calls. I can feel it. Um, and she's pointed it out on me. Um, she recognized back in college, she would grab my arm and say, 'We need, we need to leave wherever we were, like, we need to go right now.' And I'd be like, 'No, I'm fine.' And she would say, she, she eventually told me, she wouldn't tell me that early on, but, um, she would say, 'My jaw clinches in a certain way that you're about to get in a fight. You're about to do something stupid. We need to go right now.' And I can feel it on me now. And so I'm not gonna start a fight with you. I'm not gonna try to be tough. And it's because we're just on a phone call here."
"Um, what, what I want to start this call with is this, or not start this call, but I want to make sure I put this out there. You can be around childhood triggers. You can have some really cool expectations for your life, or some insane ones, like adopting nine kids. Thank God that fell through. Thank God that fell through. No, those nine kids had no business going to an addict, abusive home, right?"
"Uh, yeah. I don't care how many triggers you are. I don't care which family members you're around. I don't care what, what childhood friends you end up. I don't care any of that crap. You have a choice to make in every moment of your life, right?"
"Awesome. Okay. So you were abusive. Thank God your wife left. She took off on you, as she should have. Are y'all divorced?"
"I'm proud of her. Uh, it became official, uh, about two weeks ago."
"Okay. So it took about a year to go through the whole process?"
"Yeah, okay. About 11 months."
"Okay. All right."
"Um, so, yeah, I've, uh, I've had a bit of a road to Damascus experience, if you will. Okay. And, um, I, uh, I'll, I'll try to stay away from jargony talk, but, um, you listen to this show, yeah, be direct."
"So, yeah, I mean, what it says here, well, I'm not gonna read the script. It's, uh, what, what changes have you made in your life?"
"So many. It's overwhelming. Rip them off. Let's go."
"Right. So, uh, I've, I'm down since, uh, since late February, I'm down 130 pounds. Wow."
"And it's not packing back on. It's intentional. Um, I go on a daily, uh, three to five mile walk minimum. No, not minimum. I, I go on a daily three to five mile walk. It usually takes an hour to an hour and a half. Uh, I've read a lot of books. Um, I have gotten sorted out in my moral values, and I've got a mentor who has poured his entire life into mine. I was able to, I, I quit my antidepressants cold turkey. Not advice, I know. But, uh, I was getting ready to go to a drug rehab facility for a year, and I decided I didn't want to do that. I wanted to try and find a different way, and it turned out really well. I've impressed some people, but I don't care about impressing people. I just want to be better."
"Um, I have been able to maintain employment for a long time. Longer than normal."
"I have been, like, 10 months. Yeah, that's not a long time, but it's longer than you have in the past, right?"
"It's, uh, largely longer than most any other job I've had."
"All right. We'll go with that as a win. Keep going."
"Okay. I started, uh, going back to school to finish my bachelor's degree. Um, I started my business back up. That was another thing that led to a ton of depression because I didn't have my business running, and I was just really futile, living an aimless life. And, yeah, so I, I've gotten my, my physical health in order. I've done well to get my, uh, intellectual side going. My, my spiritual health is really locked in the most over anything. And I'm just trying to learn how to, uh, overcome my traumas. I feel like the world owes me something. And, oh, well, I often want to believe that the world owes me something and that I'm entitled, uh, to, uh, some help. And I'm not. I'm not. I'm 29. It's not cute anymore. Uh, good for you. There's no sympathy, and I need to grow up. And, um..."
"My ultimate question here is, I, uh, and I'm afraid to ask this too because it's unbiased, and I know you tell the truth. Um, I, I miss my wife like crazy. And, um..."
"Your ex-wife. I, uh..."
"Your ex-wife. Uh, yeah. That, uh, so I miss my ex-wife like crazy. And, um, um, I desired to, uh, have her, gave her back into my life. And, um, my, uh, uh, that's a big long-term dream of mine to have her back. Um, but the big thing here is, um, so, uh, what would it take for me to have a realistic shot at restoration and reconciliation of my marriage and getting my wife back in my life, if that's ever possible again? I'm, I'm committed to her and I'm committed to whatever it takes to show her I'm different, a new man. I just, my responsibility, uh, waned, and I have not put in tons of work to overcome my trauma."
"Um, I'm not gonna beat you up for wanting to get the woman that you love back. That makes sense to me that you love her. And cosmically, I honestly, honestly, in my guts, listening to your story, don't believe it's about her. I don't think you liked that guy who you became because you became a monster, and not the monster you could control. You were an adult. You were a child monster, which is the most dangerous kind. And I think you want to, uh, uh, I think you want to redo that. And I do. I think she's the person you hurt so bad. She is the shining example of who you became when you were at your worst. And, um, you should 100% be in jail, and you're not."
"I agree."
"So when you became your worst, she is the poster of that. And so you want to go fix that and make that right. Okay."
"Um, so I don't fault you for that. Not even a little bit."
"Thankfully, that's not your choice. Yeah. You've impressed me greatly with the, the work you've done. Very, very impressive. This is a guy that fell over the, like, it's like one of those, uh, Wiley Coyote cartoons. You've actually fell off the cliff, and there happened to be like, a one squirrely tree growing out of the side of the cliff that you, you know, your shirt caught on before you fell all the way to your death, and you managed to claw and scratch your way back to the top, right?"
"Yeah, I, uh, I also added, I forgot to mention that I did, um, domestic abuse recovery program. I've been in therapy for the last, uh, eight or nine months."
"Cool. And I've done some other emotional recovery."
"No, I got you. I got you."
"Um, so I'm, the work you've put in is very, very impressive. Very, very impressive. All of these things on their own, lose it. 130 pounds, it's, it's damn near impossible. So choosing to have an hour, committing to an hour exercise program a day, if everyone in the United States did that, um, our country would be healed within 24 months, I believe that with all my guts. If people just start walking and exercising and waving to each other, um, reading is hard. Getting a mentor is hard. Emotional recovery work is hard. You've done that. You have not done the thing that will take you a long time to do, and in fact, you've circled it and avoided it in a really masterful way. Abusive people, and you, you touched on it, are entitled, right? That's, that's, that's the foundation. The world owes me. You owe me, which is another way of saying, you are mine, possessive, right? That you can do all of the physical healing you want. You can do all the emotional and quote unquote psychological healing you want. You can go get an anger management certificate. You can do all that stuff. It's all good. It's all fine. But you have done zero work relationally."
"I agree."
"You don't know how to be in a relationship. And relationships are the things that set you off. Somewhere along the way, childhood trauma is my guess. Is relationships were so weaponized, there was such a point of fear and anxiety and terror for your little body that it is unable to at this moment, and it can learn. There is healing here. Um, but it's unable to be in them because my guess is if you're, if you're a, your mentor pushed you really hard, you'd eventually break that off."
"He's, uh, he's, uh, not giving up on me."
"I know, I know. But you're giving up on him."
"Yeah, there you go. You've tried, right?"
"I, uh, I met him through my church. And, um, in my church, there are, um, uh, it's my biggest struggle. Uh, I, I am tempted to say that I feel lonely often. Uh, my, my relationships, uh, suffer. I don't, I don't have a ton of, uh, I, I have my gang of guys that I can go to and tell them anything, but, uh, I don't have, yeah, relationships. It's my big struggle for sure."
"And your gang of guys that you can tell quote unquote anything to, let me be real clear. My gang, that's like that Trevor and Michael and Craig and Kevin and Todd John. If I called them and told them that I was up for a walk and I asked them to come, my wife to come pick me up and she couldn't find me to the point that I choked her and shoved her to the ground and injured her. Brother, God help me."
"Foreign. Yeah."
"So I'm calling BS on these guys you can tell everything to. I didn't have them prior."
"Okay. So you are practicing being in relationship. Here's what I'm telling you. Number one, doing all of this work with a goal to get back with an ex-wife who you are highly abusive to is not the point because all of this hinges on something that's out of your control, which is her choosing, somewhat psychopathologically, to get back into a relationship with a guy that's physically and emotionally and psychologically assaulted her over a long period of time, okay? You have to do this because you're worth being well and stopping this madness from taking another inch of your family tree. And you still don't believe you're worth all of this."
"You don't. Some days I do, but, uh, not, uh, largely, no."
"Yes, the internal narrative is, you know, I'm a piece of crap, and yeah, I need to give up because it's been long enough, and no, nothing good has come from it."
"Well, good things have come from it, but not what you want."
"So just go ahead and do that. Incredible things have come from this, but not that core, which is the world owes me. And you nailed it. The world owes us nothing. We all leave this thing in a box, right? All of us do. And so until you switch the dial from, 'I'm doing all this stuff,' and dude, you've done hard, hard things. 'I'm doing this so that I can get, like, I can get my trophy back.' Dude, I'm telling you right now, this ends in ash if you do this. Because James from Houston is worth going to bed at night without any meds. James is worth sitting around with a bunch of guys laughing. James is worth getting upset and having a set of, uh, tools in this toolkit to not rage out on his poor wife who just was trying to find him, and he gave bad directions, or she sucks at reading the map, who cares, right? Until you believe that all of this is you just extra, I mean, this is just a long exercise in white-knuckling, okay? Tomatoes, like it feels like, uh, a never-ending striving."
"You know why? Because you're still trying to achieve love, and you've been doing this since you were six. Stop. You cannot achieve love, my friend. You have to receive it. And receiving means opening your hands. And opening your hands means vulnerability. And vulnerability means somebody may hurt you real, real bad. And instead of allowing that to happen, you hurt them first. And until you flip that over, my friend, you're going to be in a steady loop, deloop, de-loop, de-loop, de-loop, de-loop of, 'Look what I did. Now look what I did. Now look what I did. Now look what I did.' And that core rage underneath is going to keep burning and burning and burning, and running and running and running and running."
"Um, I, I'm, I'm stunned that I'm saying this. I'm really proud of you. You've worked really hard. And for you to say it's all amounted to nothing is dishonest. That's a lie. It's amounted to a lot. You lost 130 pounds. You've changed your entire physical, physiological being. You started practicing relationships, subjecting yourself to hard stuff. What I'm suggesting is it's time to put all of this work into the relationship side because you're not telling that group of guys everything. You're not. You haven't told them. Um, you don't tell them all the good stuff. You don't tell them all the bad stuff. And more importantly, you don't tell them what happened to you when you're a kid. Grief demands a witness. The things that happen to you, you're gonna have to look somebody and say them out loud, somebody that could use them against you, and then they don't. And your body relaxes and breathes because it's safe for the first time in a long, long, long time. And that sense of safety, that sense of that allows other people to enter into your space further and deeper. And that's intimacy. That's relationship. That's love."
"So you, man, you're on the right path. You've made a turn that very, very few men make, and I'm proud of you. But getting your wife back can't be the goal here because you can't control what she decides to do with her life. All you can control is you. And hear me say this, and if you're watching this, I'm looking directly at the camera: You're worth this. Do this for you. Do this for your many 'uses,' am I in? The little James's that come down the road, they're going to be born one day, so that them and their spouses never experience this. Learn relationship and learn love. And maybe your wife will call you back, or you actually have to call you back one day. Probably not. Maybe. But that's not the goal. Loving you is."